The Scaling Wars | Near, Avalanche, Optimism, Arbitrum and Polygon

Transcript

i'm gonna pick on you if you could actually lead us off here kind of describe these two different visions the mono chain versus the multi-chain future and maybe this kind of door number three option which you call the super chain so give us your framework here yeah so okay what's the context here we have these chains these great global trust layers magic trusted computer in the cloud right whatever you want to call it and obviously we're all very familiar that we want to increase the usage of these platforms and we need to scale and so there's definitely question of how do you do that architecturally technologically and there's like you said basically i think two prevailing schools of thought here there's a mono chain and the idea of a mono chain is there's basically one big chain that we can really scale up make it way faster

parallelize the heck out of it and run the world's crypto on that there are a lot of advantages that you get with that right one huge one is you get composability right your sort of flash loans and this sort of thing and that clearly has economic efficiencies there's clearly a ux boost when you're on ethereum and you can move to any other ethereum application really easily use them both in one transaction whatever it may be the problem is that those are by definition monolithic and sort of all the transactions on them are the same and so if you are sufficiently bullish enough on crypto you should realize that there will be way more demand than could be satisfied by any one chain and simultaneously there should be classes of transactions that have

different uh security versus cost trade-offs right there are just some applications like a game or a really cheap nft or whatever it may be that you don't want to pay for the world's you know state resistant you know blockchain trust layer so there's another point of view which kind of looks at that and says there should be many chains the multi-chain future and these should all sort of talk to each other slowly and because we'll have many chains we'll be able to scale more and we'll have a more uh sort of heterogeneous model heterogeneous i don't know how you pronounce that um so i think those are the big two prevailing schools of thought that we have in scaling right now in general um oh hi i'm ben from optimism layer two scaling solution uh so our view at

optimism is generally that these are basically two sides of the same coin and that really what is really going to exist in the future is like the super chain which has all those properties of a mono chain but also has a heterogeneous model where some people can pay a lot for really secure transactions and some people can pay a little for not but you still have sort of one big composable chain and it looks and feels like one chain anyway so there's a little bit on how optimism thinks about think that's a great framework to lay it out and we kind of have representatives from maybe two of those different schools of thoughts right uh i didn't give everyone a chance to introduce themselves but uh maybe we could go around the horn actually and you guys could just say a quick word about where

you're working right now the project that you're working on and we'll start there sure yeah hey everyone amelia co-founder of nero protocol nearest charted monochain but from perspective of school of sought i actually fully agree with the division of actually having this spectrum versus a point of uh you know it's either this or that and so kind of allowing ability for users and for developers to decide where on spectrum they need to be right from like you know highly composible uh fast finality on you know on the shorter blockchain to you know moving on to having like their own shard to moving on to having to run

like sidechain et cetera that's really definitely the part of the vision uh kind of expanding beyond hi everyone i'm mikhail i'm co-founder of polygon and polygon is a multi-chain scaling platform again i fully align with what what what said that what tilia said we believe in the multi-chain future and we believe that's the only viable future if we want to onboard the world uh to this this exciting new new uh um framework or this exciting new network of value and people that we're trying to build with web3 uh polygon is the most adopted i believe uh uh blockchain scaling infrastructure platform platform right after ethereum with more than 20 000 applications at this moment

we cover we are an agnostic platform and we cover a wide variety of infrastructures and architectures sorry every everything from fully independent tvm chains up to on the second part of the extreme on the other part of the extreme full-blown layer two solutions and we working and onboarding these 20 000 applications we definitely realized that there's there's a lot of variety in terms of requirements so enterprises have completely different requirements and expectations compared to web pre-native projects and that's one reason why we decided to offer this uh um agnostic approach and to support multiple solutions the other reason is that we are still in the very early stage of this industry we are trying to i mean we

have this grand vision of onboarding the whole world to to web free and we're really in the early stage of the industry we will need years uh to to beco to basically build this robust infrastructure that can actually support this grand vision that we have and in this uh at this point of time we really believe that we need this flexibility in terms of technologies thank you everybody i'm luigi from uh ava labs head of defy there um really focused on building out another layer one blockchain avalanche has you know a lot of different unique capabilities as it relates to scaling horizontally with something we call subnets avalanche also boasts a very new consensus mechanism which allows for sub-second finality while also not necessarily

and while allowing the ability to increase nodes so about 1 600 nodes at the current time and then also at the same time we have very robust d5 ecosystems about depending on how you measure well after the recent nuke probably about 6 billion in tvl and and so we are also taking a different approach i think than some of the other um projects here in terms of how we want to scale we tried to increase block space horizontally by what we call these subnets so we recently launched two of them one both of them were in the gaming sphere so they allow for separate instances of block space to be consumed without impacting the what you might refer to as the primary

chain which is the avalanche c chain these are all evm compatible but avalanche also allows for custom vms it's vm agnostic on the subnet layer so we are seeing experimentation with respect to people trying to build custom vms for various purposes while you know i think that's a very unexplored area i think that you know we'll see various institutional players come in and try to customize a vm for their specific purpose but at the same time the most adopted part of avalanche is the evm compatible seat chain that we have so cool hey there my name is harry i am one of the co-founders of arbor shrimp we are building a optimistic roll-up on

ethereum with general evm support our goal is to build essentially sort of a cheaper faster extension to ethereum that provides users with the kind of experience ethereum experience that they know and love except without the parts they don't love like high gas fees and and slow block inclusion um and so we've been on mainnet for over a year now um and we have kind of most of the main dapps of ethereum have have bridged over to arbitram already and are supporting arbitrary instances and we're really excited to be here and just to kind of throw one point on top of kind of the earlier discussion one of the cool things that roll-ups kind of bring to ethereum is the fact that you can have this sort

of heterogeneous layer on top of the more monolithic layer which is ethereum and so you can kind of build out this sort of interesting conversation like this interesting sort of composition where you can have sort of experiments and differences on the kind of top layer well depending on kind of a single shared layer underneath so maybe it's a maybe to frame that kind of um the mono chain versus multi-chain feature into the more popular narrative that maybe you see on on krypton we can talk about it is there's this kind of uh like a battle right in between kind of um eth supporters right and folks that are building on ethereum and then alternative layer ones some of these newer layer ones the nearest and avalanches of the world that have uh you know cropped up in the last couple of years so if i could kind of simplify

into two schools of thought right eth was kind of their first there's this enormous emphasis on decentralization extreme security et cetera and the scaling solution for that was always going to be layer twos right that enabled you to reduce costs but obviously took a little bit more time than folks would have wanted um and some new kind of lay ones kind of cropped up to that allowed people to transact sort of more cheaply um i'd be curious if that's like how you guys think about that in the developer community and people who are actually building these solutions like do you see those as being fundamentally competitive do you see a world where all chains kind of coexist um how do you view like the intersection of these different chains and opportunities yeah so it's interesting i think if you look at the history of ethereum one

thing you said is like layer two has always been the future of ethereum scaling i would counter that a little bit i do think that there was a period of time before ethereum started following a rollup centric roadmap where there was a strong emphasis on charting and specifically like phase two of sharding which was the execution sharding and um so i think that's what we see some of the other panelists especially near up here talking about right yeah i remember those days going over all these two sharing designs so in general yeah i think that's accurate i i think for the philosophy of optimism and roll-ups in general like ethereum is the gold standard of security and it has the social critical mass and also quite frankly it came with all the values that

we are really here to like promote and double down on so in general i agree i think over time layer the emphasis on layer 2 has grown much stronger for ethereum but otherwise agree and billy i know you're about to speak here maybe you could also just for the audience if they're not aware of what sharding is if you give a brief definition and then respond yeah for sure so starting kind of in general is concept of paralyzing execution running it on different machines and so you know using google using facebook they don't store everything on single machine there's lots of servers and the data and the kind of computation is distributed among them um and so kind of the interesting thing is like the only way to scale is to parallelize things

like independently of how you do it like that's the way that's that's a approach everybody's taking and if you think of roll-ups uh you're pretty much just spinning up multiple roll-ups that are trying to paralyze things kind of you know optimism in orbit room running in parallel having its own block space and then just settling on the same security layer right if you're thinking of cosmos chains well they're all running in parallel and only like communicate independently if you think of you know polka dot power chains right again they're running in parallel and then you have a common core that actually settles in and so in a way there's a spectrum from kind of like a fully monolithic not not charted not paralyzed chain to you

know cosmos where everything's paralyzed there's no common security and so there's different kind of you know places in the spectrum where everybody falls and kind of roll ups live right right on the side of like hey we're running in parallel but we you know secure with the same layer one but the kind of the issue with that right is now as a user you need to be aware of which roll-up you're on similarly with power change similarly with cosmos chains etc and so what these two original ideas were right then and kind of us coming in from web 2 space as well where you know we believe in simplicity for the users

and developers as well is user understanding exactly what chain they're on should not be part of the story right they should not be part of it and like eventually i think we're all gonna converge into some design that actually like hides all this but right now super change super chain i mean i think like it will be a combination of yeah you can have like different provisioned things but the same account model the same wallet et cetera and so we started in the space where we offer kind of the same experience but underneath the number of shards that kind of a short layout where state is can be completely like changed and redesigned and that allows like that's very much modeled after you know how

kind of web two companies work where you don't need to think about you know am i you watching a movie from like this data center or that data center and you know am i on this chart of facebook server because you know they started their thing by universities or not right like that's not something users need to think and so that's really what kind of i would say like near is modeling after and then on kind of within that you can still have things like aurora which is evm compatible smart contract that runs on top and actually from perspective of users it looks like a rollup because it has kind of evm compatibility all this with its own rpc points that runs and it has actually its own block space because it

runs into some shard but it actually is within the same model and so other contracts can call it so in a way it's a realistic roll-up and so what charting is is really a realistic roll-ups meaning they get validated right away as the transaction gets submitted yeah so to earliest point basically sharding is essentially a parallelization and i guess all of us all these projects here are assuming some sort of parallelization whether it's multiple roll-ups whether it's homogeneous charging sharding whether it's polygons multi-chain whether it's avalanche set of subnets this is all basically parallelization or if you will sharding in some more abstract way i guess uh so i guess we agree that's the only way to scale and and reach the the amount of scale that we need again to

onboard the world to to web free that uh and uh to your question about ethereum versus other layer ones if you will i i think with ethereum basically introduced this grand vision at least in our opinion of this global permissionless network of value and people and basically sold us this dream and it some sort of perfect storm happened vegetarian where so many people came together and even today you see teams all across the world you know popping up random people uh starting their projects to build more of the ethereum infrastructure and it's we have never seen that yet we haven't seen that yet with any other layer one and i think it's gonna be really hard to to replicate or to do that again with any other layer one that is my personal

opinion of course uh uh time might prove me wrong but hence why we decided to build on the shoulder of the giant to be fully compatible with ethereum and we are integral part of the ethereum community and that really uh um that was a great decision for us and the ethereum community kind of embraced us and that's why we went from 30 applications within a year and several months to 20 000 applications today and that basically shows that demonstrates the power of the of the ethereum community but that being said i think maybe the bullish case for for alternative layer ones is exactly what ilia said maybe one day or what ben is mentioning of this super chain if you will where we will have some sort of

abstraction and users still not even know kind of what chain maybe what l1 are they using so in my opinion that might be the bullish case for for alternative l1 yeah i mean i would have to agree uh frankly you know the way i view it is we're all here because of ethereum that's kind of like you know they first opened the door for all of us and and now because of that we get to innovate and try and you know build better i i'm not a big fan of an environment whereby there is only one chain that we're all building on top of i think that's inherently risky i think that's also inherently defeats the purpose of competition in the space i think we want a bunch of layer ones competing

you know grinding and competing as much as possible to try and push the bounds of science and and trying to end up with the you know most finalized you know the fastest finality of transactions the most decentralized consensus i think we want to find out what that is you know it we're six years in here maybe seven or so it's very very early with respect to the science of some of this stuff but we have come a long way in a short amount of time with that said you know i think having four five ten whatever the number might be of layer ones competing and battling for this you know i don't wanna say grand prize because i don't think that's what ends up happening but to actually innovate and compete with each other i think

that's an ideal scenario that everybody should want i also think it's inherently risky to you know put everything on one major chain you know i know even if it's the most decentralized chain super chain or whatever it is you know at a certain point if anything goes wrong and every single financial transaction is settling upon that chain i don't think we want an environment where that's the only option so i think it's good to have options yeah well this has been covered really well already so i don't have a ton to add um but just to double down i'd say on a couple things i mean i think that the idea of sort of continuing to to drive innovation is is kind of

critically important i mean the ethereum community itself has been doing it you know a lot of really you know impressive work going on at other l ones have been doing it that like yeah i i'm very confident that the blockchain space today is is not what it'll look like in in five years it's not what it'll look like in 10 years the amount of of work going on right now in order to figure out how to kind of bring us to this sort of promised land of global adoption is is critically important and and very time critical um because we need to sort of stay ahead of the adoption curve and kind of putting all our forces together in order to kind of really work to that mission is just so important

i'm gonna i've gotta okay i've got a couple of comments on what you all said i do think that um the notion of competing l ones does have a counter argument which is worth stating which is that if you imagine a bunch of competing l1s and you imagine that they're competing for like some sort of decentralized security provider sort of supply curve than it is then you could argue that by having a bunch of these you are distributing the security between multiple places and it would actually be more secure if it was all in one decentralized network right i think the only other thing that i would add is that i do agree that parallelization is kind of what we're all doing but i think that to say that we parallelize that roll-ups paralyzed by having multiple roll-ups

only is just evidence of the early parts of roll-ups that we've seen so far so basically what's going on at optimism right now is we have a huge push to be able to not just run the evm but run like arbitrary golang looks like arbitrary programs in l2 and i think once you have that basically all of the sort of sharded l1 designs port right over to l2 so like we're expecting future iterations of optimism to literally be one roll up but have the sharded parallelism properties within the one roll up so i do think that if i were an l1 right now i would take all the awesome execution stuff i would do i would turn it into an l2 secure it onto ethereum and i'd be good to go so i i mean i'll take it i'll take the

bait we can close the panel i'll take the bait because i like ben [Laughter] i i think i think l2's um have a very very very important place you know and i think they're going to play an important role in scaling i don't think they are the best for certain things in particular finance is is one of the things that i think is is is less optimal on a layer two than an l1 and and just to play devil's advocate what i'd say here is uh you know one of the really nice properties of blockchains in particular is this ability to finalize a transaction super fast um especially from finance perspective you know if i

am able to sell settle large amounts of u.s stocks for example on a blockchain there's this really nice property if it's instantly final where i know that i'm not going to fail on settlements anybody who's worked in an operations department at a bank knows what happens when there's fails you know it leads to a domino effect of fails behind it so i think having this instant finality of transactions is super important obviously there's a delay in between the time of execution and when that transaction is permanently final um so i i would say that from that perspective there is you know a counter argument to that in addition i do think that um you know when you have a lot of capital uh at place in a certain

um i would say you know on a chain you do want the security of a certain amount of value staked um that is measure it with the amount of value on the chain so you don't want a scenario whereby you have 20 billion dollars of tvl on a chain and two billion dollars securing it that's inherently risky so i think that you know those two things combined would make me think that finance there is a place for uh you know execution on l1 directly but then wouldn't you want all of the security budget to go onto one chain no that's like the cme right like i mean there's one place where everything can break yeah maybe i mean i think the main thing i would say is you get instant transactions and optimism too so i agree that that's like important but also you can make them more final by putting them

on l1 i want both i want both i agree the funny part is lycline of near is that actually settles on ethereum and by the way litecline of ethereum is on near so you know who is l2 to whom is an interesting question and and uh oh boy i mean but that's but that's will you be my altitude but that's the question is like from pers layer two is actually first of all a perspective thing right it's like you're saying we're using this for security of that but at the same time you can say like from the other side it works as well as whoever more has more security in the way so in this case ethereum does but the part about that's important is actually amount of data you need to push right like at the end if you do want a

full kind of you know full data available on the layer one that provides a security you need to be able to push you know megabytes and megabytes of data which ethereum at this point is not able to and so it will it's coming um and so right now at least right like the you know building layer one is really about actually data availability and fast finality and so uh from this perspective like the kind of the speed and performance that you can achieve to users right and to be clear like we're getting new users into the space who don't understand why they need to wait for minutes or uh you know even like tens of seconds if

you like really bump up the tip uh on ethereum they actually just want to use the apps right they like you know our focus always been like how do we make this thing so simple that we can actually bring the you know billion users right like right now the existing experience right that you tr when you try to use it's not like it's not something for people who are new to the space right it's not for the people who are non-technical like we have people like we have factory workers using some apps on near right we have people who like non-educated non-technical for whom facebook was internet they're using the apps right now and that's like because they feel exactly the same and at least right now you cannot achieve that and with choices

that at least at least one point x is making you still cannot achieve that right finality is still long i mean they are working on faster finality on uh on beacon chain but like that's not what what it is right now and so like i mean if there was a way to merge all those things into one kind of uh joint experience sure but i think the choices are pretty different that people are making uh and choices like this was you know vitalik posted this long thread of like his different things but the things i did not see is choice between like actually making better user experience right that's not the choices that being made right now when they when they're thinking of how to design ethereum and like from my perspective that is the main choice like how to make better user

experience how to make better developer experience bring the users and then ideally like we should solve the complexity of behind the scenes right we should not push it on the user like and sure like we'll eventually get there like everything will be built you know we'll live in magical land of uh of everything you know interconnected and moving in in microseconds but right now we're not and so like what are we delivering now what how are we actually getting that in front of users right yeah just to luigi's sorry ben i do strongly agree that instant ux is super super important if you go on optimism you will get those interesting confirmations they're so good i agree and an arbitrary as well just to luigi's and uh elia's points about the fast pass finality you can

certainly have that sort of finality uh with rollups by replicating the model that we are all using today which are basically credit cards or our cards in general so you can have local finality on roll-ups i don't want to go too technical i guess that's not it's not the right uh forum but uh you can have some sort of decentralized operators and have local finality which is nearly instant and then you can have sim in the same manner like with credit cards you have you can have this final strong finality on ethereum at a later point using fraud proofs or zk pro but what happens when ethereum decides to censor your uh batch yes but that's the point of the whole point of ethereum is that it's impossible to censor anyone that that's why we have ethereum

google can roll back pretty deep like with all the gpus they have that's the current power i mean it will change with pos yeah but ethereum is this decentralized network that cannot be affected and it's completely unopinionated and just processes anyone any transaction that submits enough i guess it will process but that's not true i can roll back bunch of transactions you know and for a period of time make sure that nothing happens if i have enough gpus yeah so here's here's kind of like okay we're going now into some debate then you can say anything can be rolled back essentially but this was enough money it's everything is brought back that's a whole assumption that this whole thing i mean i mean this is also very practically it's practically fellas all right i mean you knew this was

happening i know this is fiery all right all right one at a time mihailo yeah and so as i was saying so it's definitely possible to build something with fast finality using using rollups and yeah regarding gpus we can discuss that maybe some other time but practically it's not really possible that's the whole point that's what you need to remember i mean i mean i think i think i think also the point is that if there is enough value to extract there could you know be a scenario whereby you know the proof whatever gets rejected something happens and you need to

reorder transactions if that happens and let's say you're trying to settle stocks right and you want to reorder the transactions you know post fact or whatever i mean that's a catastrophe like you need to reorder the market that's just this is not realistic so we're not going to do this with finance and that's like the issue for me other applications other use cases 100 i think it's a great idea but for finance in particular i think it's you know it gets very very problematic from that standpoint um also you know you all you also have a scenario like l2 is kind of like writing a check you know i mean if we're going to make it super simplistic versus paying somebody cash and you know checks can bounce you know things can

happen post facto so i i just think that you know these are great designs and they're scaling for different use cases and that's wonderful but you know it is important to also understand like kind of some of the innovations that blockchain's brought and make sure that we keep those some of those nice properties yeah and just one interesting thing that elia mentioned also is that we are indeed the kind of the lines between layer one and layer tools are starting to get a little bit blurry and especially now with you know the the most critical point in current multi-chain infrastructure are definitely bridges and this is where we see the most of the recent hacks and whatnot so this is something that the industry is kind of focusing on and one

i guess one of the most promising designs is where you actually use zk proves to to prove the the activity on corresponding chain on this chain on the destination chain if you will and again you can argue that this is kind of blurring the lines between layer one and layer two so if you have a alternative layer one that is communicating with ethereum using the zk proof uh based bridge i mean then it becomes a matter of narrative you can call this bridge actually a layer two of ethereum or scaling solution of ethereum and but basically yeah that's something that's also interesting to to kind of note yeah i mean i think in general zk is is how we actually unify all those visions right very likely very much very likely

because we'll have like a proof that everything executed and you cannot roll back that already and so then it will be you know date availability it will be still finality because your knowledge probably will take longer to actually execute but at the end it will be kind of a singular model that scales because you can execute in parallel and then just prove your part i would say that's the most likely future yeah i i i i just there was zero knowledge super chat i i just zero dodge like you can't those don't solve the issue of having separate finality like they're very useful and they're very powerful for a lot of things but like fundamentally um fundamentally if you if you have separate finality one chain can roll

back and the other one won't and then it doesn't matter that you proved something about the state at some point because the state could be changed now um that that's kind of i think a very critical point and just another point that i wanted to mention from earlier is just in terms of kind of ethereum security itself one of the things that i think the roll-up teams are very excited about is is the fast approaching merge which will bring ethereum off of proof of work entirely onto proof of stake which is going to significantly improve kind of the finality properties of the chain and do a lot to really sort of ramp up the power that roll-ups guys i want to maybe bring us up here a little bit to talk about something a bit more highlighted i was like i'm not going to get into

like here we are we get a whiteboard [Laughter] [Music] um um so i'm going to ask almost an annoying question here which is like let's talk about timeline a little bit right right we've been talking about like you know obviously these are all moving targets and everything like that but ultimately i think the future that we all want however it looks right however many layer ones whatever the diversity of layer twos is we want people to be to be able to leverage these networks right like how long do we have before companies entrepreneurs can easily start spinning up projects and aren't limited by kind of bandwidth type constraints um so i heard earlier today that with money you can roll back enough money you can

roll back anything so optimism's new strategy will be to complete the protocol then pay enough to roll back time so it's coming tomorrow like superman when he's flying around the world right he makes you go backwards you cannot disprove that you cannot do that with zero knowledge um i mean look i mean like i think the answer is from everyone's gonna be right now come use my scaling solution of my panel right but it's true you can go on optimism right now you get those instant transactions you get cheap fees and it's evm equivalent so it is like true one click deploy use all the tooling everything you love about ethereum so yeah um you know with that being said there's a long road ahead in scaling and it's

definitely the case that the end game is coming into sight i think this is something that i've observed in the past year or two years that is notably different from earlier iterations of scaling where i feel like there's a very consistent framework in which i can put all the pieces of the different things i see people saying um and it turns out that all those paths are kind of leading to the same place so shout out to vitalik's endgame post if you want to get technical but um in general i think we have years but i think the next step is going to be adoption like we're in a bear market now right and so the next thing is like telling people about this i'm less worried about a bunch of congestion and this generation of scaling not getting there i'm more concerned with bringing on applications and users that

actually align with the values of what we're trying to build in the first place so yeah i mean i totally agree i think like right now you can do a bunch of stuff and i mean a lot of people are building i think across all of the ecosystems and we see probably kind of the biggest shift in kind of what you know web 2 traditional attack of people actually coming to web3 because they're realizing the values they're realizing that the stuff actually works um and there's you know this promise here even even with you know events of last week there's still lots of interest that uh like for people to actually build and that is the most amazing part like starting in 2018 when you know market was going down

everything was crashing people are kind of exiting and like actually like going through that building through that like scene right now like just nothing like that right like people actually you know continue building nothing changed so i think from that perspective we're there there's obviously like all of us have you know huge technical roadmaps that we continue building on right i mean for uh in many ways like for near right it's how do we dynamically resize the network right like on the basis you can think like near block size is actually like adjustable and so we can actually keep growing the block size as my usage and so right now that requires like a governance vote and you know more kind of more validators coming in uh on like at the basis of

that and so how do we move to fully dynamic kind of you know out of provisioning type of thing so like dynamic resharding we call and so when that is launched that allows to actually like completely scale with more applications launching uh into the network at the same time we already have you know octopus which allows us to launch power change and kind of style app chains on here and so you're still able to or and already like like eight chains already launched that way to scale out that way and still have similar like kind of same wallet experience across them so like you already can scale there's private charts launching which allow you to run kind of enterprise or like private use cases as well so there's a lot of stuff launching

more infrastructure all of it is you know building out kind of maturing through usage so please build yeah i obviously agree as as i said in the beginning these are obviously the the early days the early phase of the industry and we have azealia said huge uh uh technical roadmap ahead of us of course we can offer solutions today which are basically our super nets our dedicated blockchain network that we offer through our edge framework and they are available today and there's more than 40 networks 40 networks currently in uh being built some of them already in production using that framework and they can support like with this dedicated network you can easily i guess accommodate up to maybe 50 million user base or something like

that so so we have solutions today but are these solutions ideal of course not uh do they have the level of security level of scalability robustness that we want them to have absolutely not then we will need years to get there and basically this again it's important to remember for for us at polygon it seemed it was always important to offer something to users to offer something today and then imperial actively work on pushing the frontier of innovation develop developing uh more more secure more robust more scalable solutions so that's exactly what we're doing and like we're still basically even in the phase of active experimentation like on the zk front we have four different text uh projects that we are experimenting with

and we still expect to see some convergence and that's somewhere ahead maybe one one year from now or so so definitely early phase we definitely have solutions even today but that's not where we want to be as an industry and as a project yeah yeah i really agree with mihallo i mean you know we have solutions today to actually be able to scale to large amounts of transactions without much friction for users via subnets so we have um two subnets that are in production um both of them doing about i would say 800 to 900 000 transactions per day maybe like a hundredth of a penny in terms of a transaction cost fee those are obviously not ideal like you mentioned in terms of you know the

decentralized set of validators that you want however it is nice to have this you know validator set that is parameter parameter parameterizable whatever the hell the word is um so i i think that's quite nice but at the end of the day um it's also nice that the system self scales itself so we had an application on the c chain that moved over to a subnet when that happened we increased the transactions per second that the network was was actually handling while lowering fees on both the subnet and the main chain that's quite nice scaling so that's possible my bigger question is like you know do we actually have the demand that we want uh to actually um you know does the space have enough demand

you know i think we can increase block space right now today um you know in a reasonable way are there enough use cases you know d5 is two years old uh you know i think we're learning a lot about it given the recent events and and kind of you know what's going on in the industry do we have enough use cases is there enough demand for block space for transactions and i think it's a comment upon all of us to actually figure out what are we you know what are reasonable use cases for blockchains that scale that users want to use and then fix the ux over time so i think we could scale today i think it'll get better over time but we also need to figure out the

adoption part a little bit faster yeah i think i'll just i mean i think both mirror ben's answer essentially of the fact that i think on ethereum there's like great solutions live today arbor trump's been live for quite a while now optimism is live for quite a while now um you can use tons of stuff already i think the thing i will add on um in my answer would be that i think over the next year there's going to be a lot of progress both i know we're working on our on our nitro release right now which is going to both cut prices increase capacity and do a lot of great things i know that you guys are also working on bedrock which which has a lot of improvements as well we're also extremely excited about the

ethereum scaling roadmap which should be able to cut data posting costs by a lot which should make roll-up transactions much much cheaper i think that kind of the systems that are there today are great but i think that like they're nothing compared to what things are going to look like in the next hopefully in the next year all right guys unfortunately that's all the time we have fascinating conversation guys everyone give them a big round of applause