Satoshi, Shorter Blocks, & Secret Plot – The Chopping Block

Transcript

wait so what what is the block time you would want so there's a limit at some point yeah yeah yeah but I mean what what would you want roughly like uh 100 200 250 milliseconds 250 M that's faster than salana you want faster than salana blocks on ethereum yeah [ __ ] it not a dividend it's a tale of two now your losses are on someone else's balance she generally speaking air drops are kind of pointless anyways trading firms who are very involved. e is the ultimate D5 Protocols are the antidote to this problem hello everybody Welcome to The Chopping Block every couple weeks the four of us get together and give the industry insiders perspective on the crypto topics of the day so quick intros first you got Tom the D5 Maven and master of memes hello everyone next

we've got tun the gigabrain and Grand Puba at gaunlet yo today we've got a special guest stannie the architect of a hello and I'm hi the head hype man of dragonfly so we're early stage investors in crypto but I want to caveat that nothing we say here is investment advice legal advice or even life advice Ley chopping block XYZ for more disclosures so we are together in person in Salt Lake City for permissionless uh we're it's rounding out the year of conferences it's been a very busy time of year I just heard that you guys were at mnet in New York City tell us what mainnet was like because I I heard not amazing things about the mayet turnout St what was you said you were there tell us tell us what the you didn't go you it's in my hometown how

did you not go I to close I think it was too close I didn't go either yeah both we went to side events right I me T had an after party actually yeah so if you had an event you kind of went I think it's just more like hey you know people are in town maybe have a little party but I I I I feel like everyone I talked to was like I'm not going like I just kept asking people are you going to this conference and I think a lot of people who came were like outside of outside of New York yeah and there was like there was like talk in 2049 it was a huge event and like people are like topped out I think yeah a lot of conference for Te yeah so okay you were at the main event I was at the main event what was

it like getting on stage at Main net I mean first of all it was great for me to be there in in New York um but I do think it was way more quiet than it was in Singapore and Singapore audience was a little bit different because it feels like the East and the West were there in terms of like crypto yeah uh main it wasn't like that it was um I'd say it was like a lower turnout um and it's was more I would say a little bit try to some extent RW was one big topic that people were talking about I feel like that's kind of my vibe of main net though is like that is that is the people uh who normally go but I uh I mean obviously the big thing is celus is no longer part of misari and I feel like he's also kind

of the draw so I feel like they're actually kind of doubly cursed in that like people who would normally go to like see his like aren't going to go or because he's not there and then other people are like very turned off by his whole like political B and so they're also like not going to go and so I feel like actually was not there at all I think he he did show up but he was he's not the MC really no no he left Masari so I think so who's him seeing now who's like the main guy this is exactly the point it's like I don't know I'm not going to this event and so I I feel like he's about probably feeling Vindicated in some ways that it's like you know look at what this conference is look those companies without me like you know

I I am sorry I see I see so it's like apple without Steve Jobs at me now all right yeah yeah wow okay all right well um well we hopefully uh permissionless is better Vibes than that but I I don't know what the what the turnout for permissionless is going to be but hoping it's going to be somewhat better because I I just feel like a lot of people are here yeah yeah also why do why are all these conferences stacked in this time of year like why not spread them out throughout the year remember last year they did permission list literally at the same time as token and so it was you had to pick one or the other and that was a big mistake I think and there's like no events beginning of the year like there's yeah exactly why not just spread do your events then actually I

like it because I don't need to travel half of the year so yeah well it's like you know it's cold St home you know no no no it's cold in half of the world the other half is hot that's true Australia Australia could be all the confence part of the world though you know so yeah um okay but speaking of token 249 so actually I wanted to issue a correction so if you guys recall on stage we were with um uh MOS shake and Arthur Hayes and while I was on stage at token 2049 I made a statement about Kaa The blockchain that was a a fusion between Clayton and fuchsia or sorry finia which was the line blockchain and I made a claim that I heard from some guy at a party that um that the uh that the kayia blockchain was a Rebrand from Clayton

because Clayton had been raided by the CEO of caca and that they had stolen a bunch of money so apparently this was I got in touch with the Kaya team because they were not happy to hear that I was saying this Apparently that is [ __ ] that is not correct uh I probably should not be reting things that I heard from random people at parties so apologies to the Kay team tun's party yeah all sorts of [ __ ] there you go exactly but yeah I try I try to avoid um just you know just reiterating complete [ __ ] rumors so uh but actually this this is a good this is good proof that that you're getting Insider gossip uh although maybe maybe bad Insider that guy was not an Insider he was like some guy at a Korea Korean a Korean was

basically my my source for this so uh yeah it was it was kind of a throwaway comment but I I don't want to be going out there you know just talking [ __ ] so anyway okay so putting all that stuff aside let's talk about some other [ __ ] that's going on so there's an HBO documentary that's supposed to drop today the HBO documentary is called money electric the Bitcoin mystery and the hype around the show is it's going to drop on HBO Max and the hype around the show is that it's going to supposedly reveal who the documentarians believe is Satoshi Nakamoto so there's a polym market market for who is going to be the person that they name in the documentary as Satoshi Nakamoto and right now uh as a as a few days ago uh Len Sassaman was the leading candidate

who's like this cryptographer pgp early you know uh Cipher punk guy he is plummeted in the rankings and actually so far there's been some speculation from uh somebody I think it was Samson Mau who was apparently interviewed in the show who claimed that nobody who is front running on poly Market is going to be the person named on the show as Satoshi Nakamoto so now the market is plummeted and it's like 80% that it's going to be uh either nobody who's on the list or multiple people um so there's always every every couple years there's always this frenzy of like getting back into speculation about who Satoshi Nakamoto is I feel like we haven't had one since the pandemic I actually feel like the pandemic stopped all of the there was a viral blog post about Len

sassin that I think came out a couple years ago that that got a lot of the speculation going again um I I will say I always found kind of distasteful of like the speculation about who is Satoshi Nakamoto but I can't quite put my finger on why I feel that way it just feels like a stupid thing to be spending time on but I don't know what do you guys feel because obviously nobody knows and you know the documentary be live by the time this airs but what do you guys feel about this you know hunting for Satoshi thing well first off isn't the Sassaman thing like he has a bunch of he like Satoshi has some posts after he died so like if if he is satosi he's probably one of a group and I don't know personally I just prefer thinking it's a group and that

that they've like made a death Packa and no one will ever know or it's a CIA or whatever versus like one person I feel like this idolatry of like it being one person is actually the problem is like there's this expectation that there is this single figure but like what's the likelihood that's a single figure I'm I'm I'm I'm a little on the fence the thing with the group is that at at that level like someone is temped to actually like talk about it it has to be like really you know secretive group or like I don't know like it feels like if there's that many there's multiple people around it and they've been able to keep quiet so long it it feels like a really hard thing to do for humans a lot of the candidates died though not in

like pretty soon after I just I just a lot of them died at weird times and in weird ways so yeah I don't know I think um I do I gu I don't distasteful but I find it strange that people so many people are curious hey I find it very hard to be believe that you're going to find Smoking Gun evidence at this point if you consider all the time and energy and Bounty that's B gone into trying to find Satoshi it's like now like almost 20 years later we're going to find some like that just seems very improbable to me and two is like you know part of the appeal of of Bitcoin I think is sort of the Immaculate Conception and we don't know who Satoshi is and there isn't you know some doofus who you know we're now going to dig up all the bad history be

like look at this all these bad things this person said or like you know I feel like anyone at some point is going to kind of get you know milkshake ducked and so I think um uh yeah I think like L A be like that is kind of the point and um it's like like what what outcome do you want from this I don't think there's anything put it I think the the the answers can only be bad yes right like there are no there there are a bunch of okay answers and then there's some really really bad answers like Adam back is a very bad answer to who is Satoshi you know or like you know Peter Todd or if that turns out to be Satoshi it's just like that I don't know where the world goes but not in a good direction if it turns out

that like yeah you know he's alive and still has all the keys and it's just you know everything is terrible yeah uh I don't know I so I get part of it it feels very like kind of JFK assassination where it's like this it's it's a fixation for a kind of person who their brain power be better spent on other things right that's that's kind of why I think I don't like it so much and to your point like it kind it doesn't matter it sort of hurts this Immaculate Conception story like the whole point of Bitcoin is it doesn't matter who made it and that the person who like even if it is Adam back which you know again probably not but even if it is AD him back like who cares like what does it matter other than like okay well this guy has you know tens of

billions of dollars of Bitcoin now and then that okay that's potentially concerning but beyond that like it doesn't give him any more legitimacy in deciding where Bitcoin should go yeah I I agree I think um yeah like I other thing I think was fny about this this prediction Market is I feel like in some way is actually kind of a indictment of prediction markets that surely like press screeners and all these kinds of things have been set out like surely many people have watched this documentary at some point and yet nobody is betting on the or I guess maybe to to the point that's why it's 80% somebody else but like well that was only very recent that was only in the last few days right but you think someone would be um maybe I don't sort of showing their hand or like someone would have spoiled at least just for

like internet points well I think what is being implied there I mean so obviously there's Samson Mouse you know he was on the show so maybe he's seen it in which case he's like okay it's none of the people on this list so people moved their bets after that it could also well be that the people realize that okay the volume on this thing is is speeding up as the hyper on the show is speeding up and then somebody who has access to they know who the answer is it's nobody on the list there's nobody on the list that's how you make money yeah um so at this point uh like the the the thing that's interesting about this story more than anything is that it's kind of a new way to experience you know this this okay there's a betting Market on who it's going to be

there's teasers that that roll into it it could also well be that the producers of the show are American and so they can't bet on ping my you know you there used to be um like Vegas books would offer odds on like TV series finales like you could bet like the Seinfeld finale and stuff like that but it's like very oneoff bespoke kind of things but we should get those going again you know it's uh yeah sopran The Sopranos I remember there was like a huge volume that was like the front page of a newspaper highest betting volume whether he would die or something dies because someone always dies in some products I see I see but it could be even like uh interesting like a go-to market strategy like just like create a market and St start liquidity growth growth Ines yeah put put some incentives to juice betting

on the show yeah that could be that could be good I mean honestly though I if I were to do that I feel like reality TV shows have more have have an audience that's captive and would be willing to bet more than like this type of stuff that's true I mean that's already basically sports right so you have to EXP out from the sports betting Market into other kinds of Television yeah I me I would love to bet on L Island you know who wins okay I don't know if you have it here it's the problem is yeah I guess like the people on the show could definitely bet on themselves that is true um yeah you need again some sort of death pactor something exactly or you just do multiple edits and you uh you know don't reveal who it is yeah all right fair enough um well

speaking of poly market so poly Market has also been ripping obviously we're now 25 days away 30 days away from the election so we're getting we're getting very very close to home stretch uh poly Market odds from Biden oror Biden uh Kamala versus Trump uh we're now back to 5545 it's been wavering up and down now it's about 5347 in favor of Donald Trump once again um we've seen all-time highs of volume so the the chart of betting volume for poly Market just looks like it's getting steeper and steeper with every uh passing week so uh the interesting thing now is that poly Market uh because the poly Market odds have now diverged a little bit from a lot of the um the the kind of election

modelers so you know if you look at the New York Times you look at uh 538 you look at Nate silver uh their odds are pretty neck and neck they're pretty close to 5050 but poly Market kind of had this outsize move with a large amount of volume being bet very suddenly on Trump um so this has caused a lot of conversation about is there a trump whale is this inorganic is there somebody trying to move the market intentionally towards Trump in a way that is outlying from the actual underlying odds uh and if so isn't the whole thesis that markets supposed to correct this but it doesn't seem like markets are uh correcting it to move back toward the the odds from all the other pollsters so um curious to get people's thoughts there's a lot of conversation now about this of is there

some funny business going on on poly Market in the home stretch of the election Elon is that you yeah there there was some weird thread talking about is this maybe Elon Musk I I find that to be just complet like I read the thread I'm just like what is the evidence of that there's some guy who bet a lot of money yeah there is there is one account that just been accumulating Trump shares um and so yeah I don't think it's Elon but that is you some of the the pressure but I think specifically there was like just a weird move up like a lot of this has been like one leg up I it was like basically Monday market open in the US there's like a tick up 2 3% and that's kind of where this is come from now it's just persisting but I think to your point

there's been all these conspiracy theories around like oh well I like you know this Market is you know symmetric um at least it's priced right now like you could go and make money on this pretty easily and then people always try to explain away oh well you you have operational risk and you know you have opportunity cost and that some are technically true but I'm also like 25 the opport exactly opportunity cost is bounded yeah yeah yeah now it's only a month away so it's not bad so I think maybe part of it is on just people um you know don't have enough conviction there there is just a wide range there's a wide envelope of outcomes and you know it's hard to say that you're really you know making you know three cents if you're you know selling Trump at 53 thre or or vice versa you know you can

capture a little bit of an R but maybe it's not attractive enough for people so or you know again maybe someone has some sort of inside info maybe they're looking at Future polls or something that is like um indicating something more bullish for Trump but um I don't know I think everything else I kind of assume the market is working as intended and it's functional and like I'm inclined to more trust that more than again some of the even more sophisticated models yeah I mean polling error is a lot wider than three points yeah yeah exactly I I mean my thing is actually I think the elasticity of the market versus the elasticity of the polls to like certain events is very different like the polls don't respond to these like 60 Minutes type of things as fast as like the market does and I

feel like that that 60 Minutes interview was I mean disastrous might be the wrong word but it was not a good interview the call her daddy interview with witha that was uh probably got a lot wider distribution than 60 minutes yeah yeah I just watched the 60 man one because like I thought that and I don't think that people were maybe uh like I don't think it was like the same demographic that is trading on poly Market is the one listening to 60 minuts right but the Tik Tok reals and the the the small videos that people were making from it were very bad let's put it that way I was I was actually like it would they it had lot of bloopers but yes yes yes the I feel like we've been through this before

you watch Tik Tok you also watch Tik Tok yeah totally it's like you get the you know you get the news fastest from from Tik Tok like that's why get the news fastest yeah because like in in Tik Tok also like you get lot of videos so so for me actually Tik Tok works really well and because I go from um every direction on Tik Tok like the algorithm just keep changing ah it it's really uh actually gives me like from the hurricane news and everything all the all the latest uh news you're getting us news you're you're in London right yeah yeah I mean the the Tik to algorithm really is really um something else like it really picks quite well off your location backgrounds even like if you you know say Wi-Fi and similar type

of content from what content on your Tik Tok actually I don't at all that's no crypto okay I see I I do think there was some correlation between Elon like there's interesting events Elon stepping into you know the [ __ ] rally in in Butler and at the same time you have this like a huge bed on uh po Market I I think that's like a kind of like a what you mentioned tun about the audiences that there's some correlation there okay I still yeah I I mean I use Tik Tok for restaurant reviews honestly because I think the best restaurant reviews are on Tik Tok so oh that is that is true the really good restaurant reviews much better the Google reviews are all gerrymandered and fake reviews but the Tik Tok restaurant reviews it's much harder to fake the full video right now

I mean I know in five years we won't be saying that but but like right and so like you get good restaurant reviews wait are you are you also a Tik Tok consumer I deleted it okay yeah just not uh yeah I don't trust Tik Tok I honestly I used to be like that and then I just use it on this burner Android phone okay you have you a dedicated Tik Tok phone you don't want to give any data yeah it doesn't touch my normal all right damn that's good yeah that's that's I I actually I tried Tik Tok once this is totally unrelated crypto but I tried Tik Tok once in Singapore because uh it was on a TV there was like a smart TV that had Tik Tok on it and so I was like all right I'm going to try Tik Tok because

it's not my machine it's not connected me in any way and so I saw Southeast Asian Tik Tok which like Aggregates a lot of different countries together because it because it doesn't know where you're from so it gives you like some Vietnamese content some Indonesian content some Chinese content it's really strange it's really strange experience but uh did not make me want to spend more time on Tik Tok yeah I I I guess the but going back to the the yeah sorry the podcast and the these clips I think the clips from these uh events are probably or from these recordings these like long Power Plus long things are much more impactful to the poly market pricing than they are to the polls and and I also think the poll sampling is like I I if you look at the median age

in a lot of the polls it's like way higher than the median age of like a poly Market user so in some sense they're they they're just different yeah right like they're doing Corrections for it but those Corrections probably can't incorporate something like this podcast just came out and Tik Tok hates it you know and like that's that's losing her some of the Gen Z Vote or something like that yeah I have never seen poly Market advertise to me on Tik Tok have you no no advertise on or just like sorry like someone not adverti there's a lot of crypto content on Tik Tok but it it just doesn't surface to me you get crypto content okay yeah it seems it seems very different than the kind of stuff on Twitter I think the only time I've ever seen crypto content on Tik Tok was 2021 when I would get uh I got a Tik

Tok that was like here's how to log on to binance Smart chain and buy safe Moon yeah there is there is I mean there's a lot of onboarding through Tik Tok I know a lot of meme coin stuff happens on Tik Tok U and we don't we have content on Tik Tok or we we've been experimenting with some shorts kind of just a classic you know I've been trying to get get um our intern to uh do more of like the the you know dual screen brain rock kind of thing get some like Subway Surfer going on the bottom so if he's listening to this right now which I assume he is um you know tune in to The Chopping Block Tik Tok for some uh some good content we gu we got you got to get you gotta get subscribed to the you can't subscribe on

Tik Tok can you you can follow you can follow even even the following isn't the that big thing on on Tik Tok because the algorthm is so powerful just such as the content so okay so we're as we're talking about politics um obviously one of the big stories in crypto has been World Liberty Financial which is the a fork I think it's still supposedly a fork uncon not a for not a for not a okay all right let's get all right now that we have you here we've been trafficking in rumors the entire time that this has been a story so I'd love to get from your side The Narrative of how did all this come together what the hell is doe Finance how did it come into play and what is the connection between World Liberty financial and these guys who are helping run this thing and a

yeah so based on my understanding is that obviously do is was a a team that is basically forking a and trying to do like some sort of uh uh Landing protocol is this a blessed Fork is this like a you know you didn't know what's going on I mean there's not really like like friendly Forks of a you know people just use a un friendly Fork but uh nevertheless I I think like they wanted to basically um use a and build on that and um this team essentially they their their vision is to create a a some sort of like a new type of a experience and and to a new audience and and um basically bring some new users

into defi which I think is really interesting because I do think like whether it's like a protocol or or Define in general it's it's per it's permissionless um uh protocol so anyone can actually like plug it use it regardless of like their political background or you know whatever regions they are but what's interesting here is that um we don't have that much information about it we know that it's uh integration into the uh a markets uh and that there's going to be a new product a new type of experience and um a new audience that they're targeting so it sounds like they haven't talked that much with you guys well we um here's the thing like usually a lot of these things

happen in the governance Forum or uh either like at some point uh essentially so I actually wake up um every day and I see something new in the governance forum and I'm like [ __ ] I need to like read this and a lot of time will go like a lot of things actually you know happen outside of our team yeah and we don't know anything about it there might be a service provider that is working uh with a particular team and you know they work on a proposal um and and and a lot of things happen very decent way um but I think that's that's the whole point of a a as organization is that these teams they don't need to rely on us they can just go to the Dow and you know propose their thing and and and and and and also

like if it's a pure integration you can just plug it in so you don't you don't this is not a pure integration right they're forking of a they foring a they're not forking a they're using a on the back end yeah so their liquidity comes in through a yeah oh I see okay and there's some easy way of like onboarding with Fiat and and whatnot got okay so I mean wa then wlf is a meme coin officially mean it doesn't really have any no is the whole about applications user blah blah BL it's a it's a infrastructure flavor to meme coin if it doesn't control control parameters doesn't control fees why doesn't it control the RIS parameters I guess it does for a vault or something

that I I don't know's some sort of wall structure there some sort of a wall structure where if they Fe okay if their fees is I I take it back what about all the wallet front ends that are charging fees you know those like meme coins for UNIS spop like no those those are real apps that are like you know just charging fees on top of no no but they don't have a token whereas this is like they do have tokens oh yes they do like who like banana gun oh yeah yeah yeah sure sure sure sure yeah I guess if you're comparing it to that I was thinking more like Phantom or like a vertically integrated oh sure but they're still making you know money like for sure if you have audience and and you have user based then then basically kind of like you can you can manage that

in control like fees for example so I think there's a lot to do I I actually think that you know uh like we should figure out Beyond kind of like these like infrastructure protocols and like what can be done on that like app level if you actually you like own the users and what you can basically do with like fees and and and and sharing uh Revenue it it still feels like a weird access point to bring people into crypto right I mean obviously everybody loves a and you know the lending markets and money markets are some of the oldest things that really worked in defi but they are kind of a power user thing like you sort of show you you the first thing you do is not like great let me borrow against my ether and like recursively stake or something yeah I but I think the power

user comes because like AA enables all these you know different pools and strategies but the most simple use case is just like if you have a stable coin you know put it somewhere and then like the step more like easier from that is that true how do you go from like just put your Fiat and in the back end it goes to a essentially so like there is kind of like guess you're bring people in off the street like cuz my I'm imagining okay you're selling people steak knives for-profit universities it's like oh here's your here's the crypto thing you can do come into here and like borrow against your assets or like do I would think it'd be like okay trade meme coins you know do some other crazy fun I exactly exactly fun but but actually I still think wlf is good as a

meme coin because one anecdotal thing I will say walking around New York which is weird right in New York I would not I I don't even think this was this was definitely not true in 2016 and 2020 but the amount of trump merchandise being sold on the street is insane and I feel like if wlf is a meme coin it's just a it's basically it's the same as that stuff I see in the street I assume this unlicensed Trump un unlicensed Trump stuff is selling everywhere in Chinatown you can't walk anywhere in New York without seeing it it's like it which is was not never true in the last few elections so like I feel like wlf could capture the market I mean think you have both right so like def find the backend you know secure and then you know mecoin

in the front end and governing fees but I I do think like why it makes sense to me for example is that we don't really have like Ci D5 when it comes to lending remember like blocki Celsius and Genesis whatever lending they all like they don't exist anymore so it's pretty much like defiled uh mostly and one thing what's interesting about these kind of like a CI lenders is that they were actually able to make it very simple because they're very forward facing on the user so like I think it was like celsus that was offering like was it like consistent like 6% yields like super easy um on the back end obviously they they couldn't like sustain anything and like when the market crashed but they were able to make it like super

simple so I think like if you remove that back end that they had and and just replace with like a D5 back in with like a and and these other protocols um you could actually like Focus completely on that owning a user and making it super easy to just Supply funds right I I agree with you in principle um I think my question is how do you I mean there's a balance between having it be super simple and then being transparent about risks to users like there were also a lot of you know anchor Neo banks that like went through YC in 2021 and they just yeah you know a in your money well give you 20% it was just an anchor front end and then you know kind of kind of went down how do you sort of not that

obious anchor to be clear but it's like how do you sort of think about um disclosures and I guess like how much to kind of expose to the end user well good thing about defi is that there is like disclosure 247 kind of like it's just about like how do you bring it to the user so I guess like there's like multiple steps removed between like the the visibility and and also things like also like resiliency like these D5 protocols can be very res I as we've seen so it's just like the last mile like how do you make it uh safe and and also um easy to use at least like defi removes some of the uh issues but it's it's not kind of like a silver bullet like I mean after they can still screw up so yeah after after reading the zerox

B1 lawsuit let's just say I feel like that's a very far Celsius was a far cry from we just use D5 protocols to get y yeah the thing is true is like disclosures don't stop you from making stupid decisions yeah exactly they just stop you from hiding the stupidity right but like you can still put your money in Anchor even if anchor disclos like everyone kind of knew that yeah anchor is not sustainable I mean it's pretty tough to sustain this but people were like Oh They'll probably make it I mean one of my favorite governance fights in crypto of all time is the 2022 uh uh like I think it's like March or February where people were trying to reduce the anchor interest rate I remember that and that was so funny that is like exactly the morbid now to look

is it I feel like we we've had a couple years we can make the jokes this is you know I feel like we can make anchor jokes now right mean anybody who died from that is like deep in the ground at this point so that's true yeah I was going to remind me of the uh you know that that drill tweet where it's like someone helped me my family is starving and it's like food $80 and the candles $3,000 spend less on candles like No And it's like that was like d it's like we're not going to cut the r you know yeah yeah um all right well speaking of uh speaking of rates another big story that has come out this week is a Redux of operation Cho 2.0 being now under the magnifying glass can't make jokes about that

can't I mean we can make jokes about this but um but it is it is a very live story so uh so Nick Carter has coined this term operation showpo 2.0 as being a description of the uh FDI and the FED putting a bunch of back door pressure on the banks particularly after the collapse of FTX to stop banking the crypto industry so this has been kind of alluded to there's a lot of gesticulation of oh maybe there was some unted stuff that was happening uh but some recent reporting by Nick Carter and then continued on by some of the unchain team uh this week has shed a lot more light about the particular things that made or the particular ways in which Regulators were putting pressure on the banks to stop banking crypto companies so um the the two particular details

that that I thought were very Salient in the story one of them was that apparently uh the fhlb which is the federal home loan board which was a common source of funding for a lot of banks was pressured by Elizabeth Warren to cut off silvergate very early on before any of the you know bond market pressures really started roiling over and making all this stuff very unpalatable so apparently Elizabeth Warren was very directly intervening on the sources of of of capital for these Banks to remain solvent uh a second point which was just brought up recently was that a lot of the folks at the banks as well as at FDIC and uh uh the Federal Reserve were communicating this 15% deposit cap saying that Banks should not have more than 15% of their deposits

banked with crypto companies or crypto Affiliated companies now normally when you pass a rule like this it has to go through a rulemaking process that is part of the APA the administrative procedures act in the US you're not allowed to just decide this and promulgate something that is a rule without going through this this act to allow some democratic input into this Ru making procedure however the the rul makers and The Regulators who were doing this at the time were not putting any of these rules into writing they were not going through any kind of administrative procedures process and they were intentionally only doing this through phone calls uh without avoiding a paper trail which would allow uh some kind of foyo request to get information about the fact that hey it seems like there's some backd door rulemaking going on that

is not being admitted to in public so if you notice any of the public statements that were made by The Regulators at this time were denying that there was any kind of pressure being put on the banks to not Bank crypto companies so now that a lot of this is coming up uh especially due to some of the um uh the the uh I think the testimony in the silvergate lawsuits uh we're now getting a lot more of the word from these Banks as well as some of the backd door reporting that's taking place through uh folks who are not willing to come fully on the record yet but we're getting a fuller picture that operation chokepoint 2.0 was exactly what we thought it was which was there was pressure from the administration Andor from Elizabeth Warren and or her compatriots to unbank the crypto industry and pin the tail on

the donkey and say the banking crisis was because of crypto even though now in retrospect that was clearly not true so reactions responses for any of you guys of of seeing how all this stuff is coming to light that the the the pressure coming from the administration was much more direct than we thought it was I guess now I can make a joke I guess we learned a lot about people's data retention policies in in what direction in the sense that like you could they they were able to produce sufficient information about this no no no they didn't they didn't ex as in they deleted oh yeah no no it was it was phone calls it was phone calls yeah but they phone calls is the OG way s disappearing messages are the are the new way OG is just phone calls yeah um yeah I had a similar kind of read where

I was like this feels like something that would have come out in like a foyer request but I guess to your point like um that's obviously not possible um and it obviously comes out through this um silvergate testimony or deposition or whatever happened um yeah I don't know it's um kind of like I guess shocking how like on point like kind of the original image of what this was was going to be I was also weirdly reading like the um wi article for the original operation chck point and kind of what happened and like I feel like there actually like like not that much kind of political Fallout from that and so I don't know it feels kind of like maybe that also emboldens people to kind of do the same thing again but um yeah I don't know just it was just kind of shocking yeah

so operation choke point the original operation choke point for those who are unaware it was pressure that was put on by the Obama Administration against payday lending and a lot of these kind of firearms firearms these are politically unpalatable uh Industries and it was it was sort of this nudge nudge okay high-risk Industries should be should not be banked and if they are then you know maybe we're going to give you extra examinations or you know we're GNA we're going to make your life more annoying if you're if you're a bank and uh this was ruled later to be unconstitutional but you mentioned it's not like payday lenders are very popular it's not like you know firearms dealers are exactly you know the thing that everybody cares about people think this was like a stain on the Obama Administration you know I think people remember like beay suit Obama more than

they remember like operation choke point even though this was you know way times worse so yeah I think the the the Counterpoint to that is that of course now crypto is much more politically organized and I think you know I I don't think about payday lenders is having any particular clout in DC but crypto especially within the last year has really gained a lot more Cloud search that I expect there will probably be Congressional hearings especially if we see Republicans take the house um in or Republicans especially if they sweep then we're probably very likely going to be seeing Congressional hearings about this um you guys have other reactions or yeah I mean I think we're also in the point where like the amount of like crypto donations goes to both of these parties I I think we're we we're basically seeing like some amount of

like Support also from Democrats now obviously we know like kind of like the support that they could be like from the Trump Administration um but I do think that's you have to reimagine again like the position and measures for crypto and and and what to do in the future regardless who's going to be in the office so I think that's G that that's kind of like the difference we have now and in the past yeah I mean the the the defense that might be levied in favor of this is to say well look it was fog of War there was a banking crisis and you know it's it's the job of regulators to try to get Banks to diversify their deposit bases so one might say like well you know I mean can

you really get that mad at Regulators were saying oh it seems like crypto is exploding you should probably lower your risk on it I think the fact that this was all done through over phone calls and they were very clearly avoiding having a paper trail to me feels like the biggest sign there's a guilty conscience here and this is not just like oh hey you know Bank Regulators got it's a tough job you know what are you going to do yeah this so it feels very similar to the U the covid uh what was it the thing that like where Anthony fouchy was like they were giving us some uh they were using like an asterisk for some word you guys didn't see the story yeah um there was something about the um the lably we we're not really reading as many conspiracy theories as

youpy this is not a conspiracy theory this is like a this this again came out of Congressional hearings that uh basically Anthony fouchy and I forget the department that he's responsible for but uh basically there were they were cred there were more credible reports of a potential lab League or like potentially validating the Wuhan lab League hypothesis and they intentionally in their emails where they discussing it they changed the name to have like an Amper sand or something so that it wouldn't show up in document searches for fo requests so like I've seen this happen before too people spell stuff for um I think uh I mean some to your point I the also discussed in the Unchained article that like um well there wasn't pressure on SCB to diversify away from like VC's and startups and that is

arguably what brought it down right it's like one sort of monotonous very similar uh credit and risk profile group um and so it's like it's weird that that crypto would be singled out when you know other other groups are not or First Republic and New York real estate right which like okay that's a very not Diversified but you know was anyone telling them like hey lower your exposure to New York real estate so um I do think that you know FTX definitely like caused a lot of lot of the uh the challenges and and obviously the reception was that you know this like if this can happen like with with FTX it can happen again obviously like that's one big challenge I think like in crypto

maybe like we can also like do a little bit better like I don't know if like self-regulation is like kind of like the right way to think about it but like somehow like self-policing and I was thinking about this the other day after our last show because we talked about the Igan disclosures and you know we don't really have a standardized you know people talk about like okay um come in and register right there's Securities laws that you can obey come in and register obviously there's no way for a token project to come in and register with the SEC and that's been widely attested to by everybody in the goddamn industry including SEC commissioner Hester Pur uh that being said you know the kind of disclosures that normal Equity companies need to do are kind of useless for token projects uh and so

people have kind of gestured at what A disclosures 4 tokens might look like that does make sense and I think if there were a credible sensible uh disclosure regime people would be happily willing to do it you know it might slow down a little bit but there's already a lot of costs associated with launching a token you know this day and age so it's not as though it's like well we're completely averse to giving disclosures about tokens actually the market wants disclosures about tokens um really you're telling me that that Meme coins want disclosures meme coin different storyin different story but um but I think for most credible tokens that get listed on major exchanges like yeah there there's expected to be some standardized disclosures like misari which we were just talking about they have kind of A disclosures page about every token it's like here's the here's

the issuance here's what it does here's the white paper here's the GitHub um so I get the question in my mind is like why hasn't there been some convergence on one disclosure you know the xkcd comic that says we have 15 standards and someone say I don't think there there are if I bet you if you go and compare like but like you don't know of any no if I comp what misari considers for instance versus what token terminal considers versus what each individual project discloses about their the investor breakup you know the pie chart the pie chart that every project show p is a they they they just every everyone chooses what random categories they want there's not even agreement on that I think it's more like um okay like where

is that just closed in it's in like the git Pages or the wiki or some self reported yeah or and it's was this actually verified on chain not usually and so um it does feel like there could be some sort of uh schema or something that would that would actually resolve this but yeah I I guess I wonder like why hasn't there been more of a push from the industry to create one disclosure standard and just be like yo SEC or whatever new law is literally the 15 stand use this one I don't think that's true totally true name one I will I will give you an example let's compare the top five proof of stake networks and their inflation curves and how they actually uh decide their inflation curves and how it gets distributed how do I compare those I compare solo where

the foundation distributes a lot of the delegates allot the tokens so it's like okay I I now need to have the foundation disclose who all its delegates are which it may not want to do for security reasons when there's a kind of an attack yeah um I also may need to figure out okay like what's actually the the ratio at which the unlocks are happening for entities that have been dissolved like the Alam FTX stuff where there's OTC trading of the lock token there's so muchal complexity to world that's also true for Equity disclosures Equity disclosures though are like like every company's different everyone's special snowflake everyone's business no no that's not true though right like if I look at all these like tech companies

that IPO in the 2010s and the non-gaap accounting stuff they do compared to the Gap accounting they still do they still do non Gap accounting [ __ ] no no no but but my my point is like I think in crypto it's even harder like the non-gaap part is like continuous time like you actually have to monitor it so are you claiming that the reason why this is not done is because it's fundamentally harder in crypto because that sounds like what you're saying yeah I think it's harder because it's I think it's way more continuous why it's not done here is a very simple but stupid reason okay which is in crypto systems there is continuous time issuance there's new issuance all the time right yeah yeah in every Equity instrument there's fixed time discreet issuance and there's a notion of when the supply so

update your thing every yeah this can't be every quarter this needs to be real time okay so do have the real time thing but the SEC needs something every quarter my point businesses are also real time my point though is that it's like very different when you're like changing your cap structure continuously right that is a fundamental unique very that is a unique thing to crypto that's not unique to crypto there are lots of businesses that have continual streams of income no no no but they don't have continual Equity dilution yes they do who give me an example someone who is give me example give me an example of a company Equity company anywhere in the world that is selling Equity Daily doesn't have to be daily I don't this also does again does not seem impossible to capture in some sort of form like

even when you're looking at your like vesting tokens that are block by Block it's really just like you send in like a block number or like a time stamp and like okay we're g to calculate how many you have at this moment in time like this doesn't seem impossible to me it's just everyone has different standards for it well okay I think to answer your point maybe as of why a standard is not evolved it's because there's not been Market pressure right like like people are not rejecting tokens that are not um extremely transparent or accurate with their disclosure the same way if you're not an erc20 token like you're probably not going to get integrated into all the wallets all the exchanges can be hard to list you and so I think the question is um how do you sort of create that that

market pressure um you have I think some venues that do a decent job like I actually think defi llama for example is a good job where if you want to be on defi llama they have a little get repo you can Fork it build your own adapter feed them data great now everyone has the same sort of spec for like feeding data in a defi llama um coin gecko very similar kind of thing for you know what is the total number of issuance what what is a current float Etc but like these are also you know fragmented one-off instances versus having something kind of more holistic we need to like a disclosure Oracle based on B yeah something like that yeah I it just it feels to me so I I I really good idea I'm I'm gonna ra go and raise now 100 million who's who's gonna invest we're

on board we're on board um I I think you're you're absolutely correct that the market pressure is the thing like so who who is the final boss for tokens that need to become more legible to people the answer is binance right the answer is the exchanges and the exchanges I mean we've seen some crazy percentages given out recently yes to the final boss is that true actually I mean it's in the docs yeah yeah I've heard it's like 10 15% for some of the latest I don't know it's that high scroll was like was like 5.5% scr yeah but scroll is an ATR project um for a lot of these people who are like doing launch pool and doing all other stuff it's like i' I've heard lately numbers are getting up to 15% so it's it's kind of crazy uh but it's very subject to

your Market power right so if you're scroll you can you can you know get away with a lot better than if you're you know cisin or whatever um so but all so all that is to say um I think the there's there's a lack of coordination right if you look at the forms so there's like you know a front page if you want to say I want to list my token on binance or on coinbase there's a form and you fill out the form and like the form is also very different from like defi llama right where defi llama is programmatic the form you fill it's literally like just a Google form and the forms in a way are the closest thing that we have to A disclosures regime uh because you have to disclose all the stuff to the exchanges uh and I guess

there what really feels like there should be is the exchanges coordinate together do like you know how universities have like this common application that fans out your University application to all the universities in the country like we need have something like that for tokens and then that can evolve to become this disclosures regime that uh uh countries that are figuring out how to do disclosures around tokens can just say ah just pick this up ad you add one or two things to it and then like cool it's like ready to go as opposed to Reinventing the wheel which like you've seen all these proposals from the SEC uh not from the SEC but for the SEC are all kind of just super convoluted and very very complex in a way that feels like they don't they don't really they don't

really work with each other particularly well so 15 standards I I my claim is zero standers my claim is or uh you know right now there's there's not anybody trying to fight to make a universal standard I think people just they don't want to dog themselves or like dog their amounts and like unless there's like what you said like about like Market forces just pushing people to do this yeah yeah yeah kind of kind of I mean like for something like a or scroll or whatever it's like okay it's all out there everyone knows the co-founders everyone knows the amounts they post the pie chart you know so and it's like okay well I want to be like scroll we don't the the standards definitely applies to these pie charts like yeah there's no standards to the pie chart I mean there are right when

you when you break the standards you get yelled at so there are standards barely when you break the standards I.E I don't add up to 100% yeah I mean yes and all but my point is there's a lot more hidden in the in the sectors than there are but like you know it's also true in disclosures of I I I think it's just that we've never for for boring trafi people they're just not used to the idea of continuous dilution continuous disclosure like everything has always been this discreet there are fixed intervals you have earnings at a certain time you have fixed dates fixed duration right why are Perpetual products and duration free products so

much more popular in crypto it's because the intrinsic asset itself is constantly changing I don't think this is true like CEOs talk to the media all the time about their companies that is not the same as disclos as my My Equity assets inflating itself every day but you can do disclosure upon a date so let's say like February 1st this is the amount sure but like I think I I just think there's not a difference in kind there's just not a difference in kind you know like there's a big dump of disclosures on a quarterly basis by companies but there's also continuous disclosure there's also continuous communication also continuous repricing there's I mean all all these things are happening on a daily basis I it's nowhere near continuously we can switch to one day block times if you want instead so we can like you

know no it's not it's not that that's what I'm saying I'm saying like I agree with you there's some batching size that's fine but I think there's a lot more Nuance to how how a people think about inflation curves B how fees are burnt B how like let's pause here because I feel like we're going in circles a bit um but speaking of block times there is a good segue there's a there's what segue there is one EIP that is gaining a lot of traction right now EIP 7781 proposed by Adams uh that is proposing what we were talking about in the last show which is the make ethereum grade again of expanding uh reducing the block time on ethereum from 12 seconds to 8 seconds and expanding the amount of blobs from six to 9 so Justin Drake has

come out in favor of this proposal claiming that uh actually there are a lot of positive flowthrough effects if you just decrease the block time so one of those things of course is you ask but another thing is that you just get less me if you decrease the block times because that means that you know the block times you can think of as uh the exchanges are down for eight seconds at a time all the time and if the exchanges are down for eight seconds then that's just more Arbitrage that's more M uh roughly 1.2 times more efficient uh more efficient indexes that would save about $ h100 million in sex Dex Arbitrage that's an estimate from Justin Drake about how much more efficient defi on ethereum would get by just lowering the block times just you know moderately from 12 seconds to 8 seconds um of

course as always there's concern about solo Builders are they going to be skipping blocks they know be no longer be as competitive um but it seems like now the momentum and this meme that we talked about on the show is gaining some traction so if you remember I think it was uh last year maybe or maybe early this year uh we made a bet among the four of us on the show about whether or not ethereum would would move some of these big improvements about increasing the gas limit and uh lowering the block times and I think I'm the only one who bet both increased gas limit and decreased block times and it looks like we are now into that phase of the meta where all the big changes you know multi proposer all stuff are not happening all this stuff is not happening and the

decreasing block times and increasing the gas limit seems like these are on the are they actually increasing the gas limit or he's been taking a little liberty with his we got there's still time there's still time there's still time be patient there's still time and I'd say also increasing the amount of blobs is kind of a back door yeah you know that's sort of yeah yeah I agree but it's still different yeah yeah I mean look we'll see we'll see so anyway uh thoughts on son as a ethereum builder how do you feel about uh EIP 7781 not a block Builder just to be clear yeah not a block Builder but ethereum you know in the ethereum ecosystem how do you feel about make ethereum great again Vibes that uh we're now seeing revitalized well I think uh like the the the previous idea was that you know we will

like ether will move very slowly and and and a lot of the Innovation will happen all TW and that's where you can experiment um do some interesting crazy things and what effectively happen is people are just forking like get there and like creating all these networks without much of an innovation so I I think actually uh innovating on L1 is the right way to do it because that's where like um lot of the value is and that's basically where a lot of like the uh baggage is actually in terms of like where iton could be today I think there's a lot to do and I think this is just like a first as you mentioned like with with these two different changes I think these are just two out of like multiple many that could be done over

like the next few years just to make it the best execution requirement I think this is a really right direction to uh to go especially because like we have to have an infrastructure where you you can simulate similar type of trading that you have in in some like uh stock exchanges and and so forth I mean to be clear innovating is a strong word I would not call this innovating well this not but I I think like they should like go like 100 acts um more into this idea of like how to improve yeah how to improve ethereum L1 are you advocating like massively lowering the block times not just that but just innovating not just that so you want to also massively decrease the block times well of course but also besides that I think there needs to be a

lot of innovation on ethereum in L1 as a kind of like pure like an idea like ethereum shouldn't move slowly okay with changes so I I would analogize like we we we've we've made a lot of comparisons with like this make ethereum great again thing with like Trump and I think it is kind of analogous because in my mind lowering the block time is kind of like lowering taxes it's very easy to do jues the economy it like obviously like in the long run you know you can't keep doing this forever like at some point you you need taxes same with gas increasing the gas limits right exactly you sort of you kind of you can't just lower your taxes in way in your weight to Prosperity eventually you have to pay the taxes back um but it sounds like you are much more of a

performance maximalist on ler one and you want to see like what kind of block time would you want to see and how do you respond to people who say that well look the thing that makes ethereum different is the the home staking philosophy the decentralization maximization if you lose that do you not lose what makes ethereum ethereum I think we have a like decentralization is a really loaded world like it means different things to different people and I think what's more interesting is is resiliency how ethereum can sustain to be resilient but at the same time can be performative in in terms of like infrastructure I think that's the direction to go and I I do agree that these changes are like quick fixes but like we should go into actually

architecture and think about like how we architect e ethereum to be better that's my uh two-way reactions wait so what what is the block time you would want well you will have to calculate that it doesn't really cause issues so there's a limit at some point yeah yeah but I mean what what would you want all things equal roughly like uh 100 200 250 milliseconds 250 M that's faster than salana you want faster than salana blocks on etherum yeah [ __ ] it yeah [ __ ] it okay loves Mega yeah yeah to be clear like that is faster than speed of light communication around the world so that is a tall order of 100 milliseconds but

I like where I like so I do think getting to two seconds is is okay if it's yeah if it's possible and it doesn't really you know you you still can have resilient infrastructure okay so that so absolute performance Maxi all right U what's your what's your reaction to that uh well I sort of dispute the claim the 1.2 thing because I think that's just coming from square root of 128 which is like 1.22 uh which is where Justin's number comes from because there is there it's not like it's like actually purely monotone that you decrease the me there's like there is some some amount that gets increased also okay and so like I think this is a very important say that there's a lot of res Justin is

a God and you know Justin says we have to obey there's a lot there's a lot of academic research on one thing on which I will trust tun over Justin and it is uh you know quantifying me equation trust more okay no I mean it's a heris stic right the square root thing uh which is where it's coming from but that was that was a grave insult that you just gave I'm more interested in the blob space increases actually because you know as very very briefly can you explain what blob yeah so BL blobs are where l2s write data to the main chain uh and that's sort of used uh as sort of temporary storage until the the chains are fully valid and and their transactions are validated proposal

wanted to increase the amount of blobs that are available yeah and so I think the the idea that blobs are going up is interesting because like the blob Market has sort of been anemic like it's had a couple moments of of of a lot of uh usage and the fees going up for it but it's been a little anemic and so it's interesting that the question is like does expanding that it does have a if you build it they will come type of thing where like you know all the op sack chains suddenly are like we're not going to use Celestia or Alda and come back or is it sort of going to be a a Remnant usage and and I I'm I'm kind of curious to see if the expanded blob space

actually attracts some rollups back I I I'm not not sure it will but I I feel price is comp it's funny like yeah I think metalic justification was like it's like 75% full on on blob space I'm like that that still mean there's like an over supply of blob space right like if if only 75% is is consumed like imagine if only like 75% of block space was consumed you know it's like okay well there's like way too much block space then um I mean it's not way too much right because there are a a there's what like seven consumers yeah but On Any Given Block it's like like you said basically like anemic so you're right that like you you want a little bit of slack in the market so that when fees Spike it's not like totally [ __ ] but um yeah it doesn't

strike me that the market is screaming at that like we need more blob space right now yeah I agree I I don't totally understand why they're doing that why that's coupled with this that's the weird that's the weird part of The Proposal it seems like it would make more sense to increase the the gas limit because that's the actual thing that is we're bumping up against not the blob storage The Blob storage is is fine um and if anything like I've seen a lot of comments from people in the kind of Twitter ethereum chorus or like oh make ethereum price go up of maybe we should increase the minimum cost or even lower the The Blob maximum so because right now um it's basically you know marginal pricing is zero because there's no opportunity cost uh but once blobs are blob storage is full then the reality is

the willingness to pay for blob storage of like the rollups that are currently sellling on ethereum is very high so they'd be willing to pay a lot of money to put the blobs on ethereum um but right now they have to pay nothing because there's just you know there's no scarcity so the moment that blocks are full then you actually see what is the what you know what is the auction going to settle at but when block are not full there's no auction and therefore everyone's paying zero or you know some di Minimus price um so I I understand the point of like well you know we don't want people to start paying a lot of money uh very soon it's it feels a little cart before the horse you know like prove that you need to do it which is like the weird part yeah I mean I can

understand the the thinking of like okay why don't we just snuff out all the da layers before they even have a chance to survive by just signaling that ethereum will always remain super cheap and we won't let prices increase right that could be the rationale and that maybe I see that on some level is that okay once we kill all the other da layers then we allow prices to rise but we don't let prices rise before then right so it's almost like a what's that I believe that's called dumping and that's illegal uh is that dump that's not dumping is that dumping yeah kind of it's not below cost no it's not below cost I mean what is cost here uh cost is below what the network is paying in costs right I mean I don't know what the blob costs really are yeah

you can you can stimulate that right and it's like okay but also like it's not cheaper than Celestia so it's not dumping like celesa is even cheaper you know I think blops are quite they're quite yeah they're almost nothing but celes is even more almost nothing right so like strictly Celestia is cheaper that's not dumping dumping would be like I'm undercutting Celestia intentionally even though that's below my costs right but that that that's just pricing pricing strategy is not dumping yeah I guess still don't think about that like like the cost would you say Amazon was dumping before they only reason I would disagree with this is like we're kind of talking about ethereum blobs which are at ethereum block time versus Celestia and aan da blobs which are faster so we have to like actually add up all the feed I I I

that's an interesting point I think we actually have to write out the math I don't I don't I think both of you could sure but the cost is like the storage over time right yeah but like I we we if you want to make meab how much you yeah exactly we should be like looking at the total sure yeah I'm I'm also like I feel like if anything stuff is all kind of below cost right because you're still having an inflationary environment right like you you you're paying people to store these things more than they would be be paid by the market you're paying people to store these things yeah through just like General sort of block rewards right like you're still in like an inflationary environment uh oh oh I see what you're saying yeah I see what you're saying um right so the I

mean the cost of the opportunity cost of including a block right and then the opportunity cost of storing the stuff that has to get replicated across all the notes yeah so uh I'm saying if if the market if Market parant are not willingly my claim though is that the inflation is a totally orthogonal cost from the cost of of uh marginally including or not including a a blob right like the the inflation is getting paid either way and the inflation is a security budget right it's not um like the marginal cost is not the fix that's a fix cost but it also affects people's like willingness to like run a machine and like a Val like I guess that's part of the issue Pro mistake it's like what is actually like the cost of right but my point is nobody's turning off their machines because there's too many blobs

running through it sure you know in which case that's that's a that's actually a good point which is like a lot of the solar scker commentary on the blob is about the blob increase because they're like oh it's extra bandwidth for me it's expensive oh interesting and that's why I think the idea that this change was like lower the latency and increase the blobs which is the thing I was getting complained about the most is that's what stands out to right right okay all right well running up on time and I know we got very wonky at the end about eips and and blob sword and so on that's just because you want to win a bet let's be real we all know why you made this add this to be clear I think what's riding on this bet is Red Bulls so for which I

have no use for which I'm the only who has a lot of utilities correct correct I don't I don't drink Red Bulls um but uh but son um which should be looking forward to in the a universe or the avara universe because I know lens is also part of the the a family avara family um what should we be excited about and anything we should look forward to at permission list uh there's a lot actually happening so obviously there's constant Innovation happening on u a side we're we're working on V4 which is um going to be a more Capital efficient version of of the AA protocol uh more risk uh management tools um also there's um obviously with avara lens we're working on lens V3 and speaking of

that there's also like a validum implementation uh where we're actually like uh using a DA and and that's where ter comments is interesting because something like social where you need to push a lot of data and you don't have enough like basic data with with these block time intervals so that's something interesting we're doing family wallet which is focusing on like really really nice design and experience on ethereum that's going to launch uh pretty soon uh that's all all the products we have okay nice and uh I I last thing I want to ask so unfortunately Robert can come out um because of course he just had a kid but as we as as everyone made fun made

fun of you on Twitter for to be clear I was I was making a joke that had a kid time me with the bare Market which say okay uh my question is uh what is your relationship like with Robert are you guys like friendenemies uh because of course you know a compound competitors but then you know it's like he he's moved on you're still at the helm I mean at the beginning it was weird because in some way somewhat like we're both building yeah in the same kind of category and I think a lot of people put us to kind of like compete with with with each other yeah and I think at some point kind of like once we actually met in real life you know all that kind of like weird tension um just like disappeared and like we were like more friendly and um this after he walked

away from compound or you still no actually like still like during yeah yeah during I think that there's um I I just think Robert is a really really smart person and and he's like a really good inspiration for a lot of uh Builders as well he's he's done amazing job with with compound and and he's doing now super which is really cool and I think he's quite kind of like ahead of innovation he's he kind of understands like what's the thing that uh it's important to focus on to get like more adoption as well so he builds cool things a really heartwarming note to end on I wish you were here yeah well I guess you can get invited back so thank you well you're you're a great crypto connoisseur uh although you're you're no

Robert but you're uh amazing you're own right so thanks for joining us thank you and uh we'll see you all uh next time hey [Music]