S7 Ep. 4 - Coordination Acceleration W/ Sreeram Kannan (EigenLayer)

Transcript

welcome to the green pillow. network podcast if you're just joining us we're building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers using crypto to bring positive some digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish a season of 5 to 10 episodes every couple months this season is all about how to Dow how do you start Dows how do you engage with Dows how do you interact in a post Dow World myself and my co-author punar have written a book called howto dow. XYZ and uh this season we're going to be talking to many leaders in the Dow era about how they Dow and how they see the dowo ecosystem evolving if you want to learn more about the podcast you can visit our website at Green pill. Network where you

can download the green pill book for free join the Discord and become a member of your local green pill. Network chapter today on the show I've got siram from igen lay on the show and we are talking about coordination accelerationism so basically saram is the founder of igen layer uh formerly a researcher and professor at the electrical and computer engineering department at University of Washington his work expands information Theory machine learning blockchain systems and computational biology tram is a co-founder of igen layer a project that's focused on decentralized trust in Economic Security and blockchain systems he has contributed significantly to the development of to the ethereum ecosystem and igen layer poised is poised to

redefine how projects interact with decentralized trust in the next era of the ecosystem what does that mean uh we get into that in this episode with s Ron we talk about IG layer what it is the opportunity that it offers to builders in the world and then we zoom out and we talk about sir's thesis on coordination acceleration basically uh well you'll have to listen to the episode to find out I think this is a really good one and I think you're going to enjoy this episode with s Ram hi sir how you doing hey hey hi Kevin really excited to be here the green pill podcast glad to have you on the green pill podcast maybe we'll start

with what you do so what is igen Lay yeah um myself I'm Shri Ram I started this project called Ian l in n a half years back uh used to be a professor at the University of Washington Seattle Ian lay is a mechanism to supply decentralized trust to arbitary new networks that can be built on top so if you look at what is crypto and what is non- crypto and try to draw a line if you added decentralized wable trust to something you would say that's crypto if you removed decentralized trust from something you would say that's not crypto so you can think of decentralized trust as the raw material out of which the entire crypto economy is created and so if you think about blockchains like ethereum which is where we build what

they do is they take this source of decentralized trust and then Channel it Supply it in one particular way which is hey built blocks you know so there's this idea of block space which is nodes come to consensus they they stake they provide some kind of security and then they come to consensus and then they uh run an execution environment on top of which anybody can build and deploy new applications this is a very specific form of supplying the trust so you take this crude oil of like decentralized trust refine it all the way through the process and then create this refined product called block space which is what everybody else consumes the way we think about it is like decentralized trust

given in its most raw manner is actually useful for people in actually building new kinds of networks which are different from the constraints imposed by any specific particular blockchain so that's that was the kind of notion of igen layer igen in German for your own your own layer anybody should be able to come and build their own layer on top of this common source of decentralized trust so that's the idea in my preparation for this episode there's two parallels to igen layer that I came across in my research the first is vitalic realizing that people should be able to launch Smart contracts without bootstrapping their a whole minor Network and that was ethereum a general purpose smart contract platform and then

the other analogy that came up I I think it was in your podcast with bankless was um the analogy to all the different apps on AWS decentralized storage decentralized compute decentralized messaging and things like that being uh sort of like a general purpose Cloud utilities and the abss on aen layer sort of being like general purpose apps uh that will be built on top of agen layer so taking something that was single purpose ethereum uh trust being used for Block space and making a general purpose so that any Builder can access the billions of dollars of capital on ethereum is is kind of what igen layer enables is that too reductionist are those good parallels to you yeah those are awesome um one way to like specifically look at from the crypto

point of view is any blockchain is comprised of you can say different layers and the base layer is some security you say they're staking or Mining and then you have consensus you know nodes come to consensus in some way and then on top of which is execution you know some execution environment is running on top of which some applications are running and you can think of Bitcoin as basically uh totally vertically integrating all these four things it's a particular form of security with a particular form of senses with a particular form of execution enrollment with a particular application which is send and receive Bitcoins and like you said what ethereum did is to blow up like the top level say that hey here is a fixed set of like

security consensus execution but anybody can build applications on top so that was kind of like the ethereum Paradigm and I would say like what the rollup Centric era on ethereum became is now open Innovation so I think of like this as like a progressive deepening of of the landscape of open Innovation where people can come in and innovate without themselves having to build the trust and so any application Builder on top of ethereum could just come and Deploy on this like you know smart contract platform and then of course all the other l1's kind of followed step on on ethereum's like Direction but ethereum took the next step actually like you know this is really surprising that a platform can actually evolve you know in

this manner and the next step was to say it's not just anybody can come and build applications anybody can build execution environments on top and that's really the rollup Centric road map because I can just run my own execution environment and prove it back to theum that I did it correctly and so now like anybody can build new execution environments that's next level of deepening of open Innovation but still what we find there is that the consensus is still determined by ethereum the one blockchain and the particular way in which consensus happens there any scaling tradeoffs that you've made are now inherited by all systems all rollups built on top have to write data to ethereum Da and all the stuff so you can

think of the next phase of open Innovation is open up the consensus also there only a common zone of security security comes from stake and stake is a really powerful form of supplying security because you can apply both the positive incentives and the negative incentives to the people participating in these various protocols so now with I can L you have Innovation at the level of consensus at the level of execution at the level of applications and you know we built this on top of ethereum so now like all the e stake and and here the ec2s and other kinds of like you know representations of economic value can be used inside this platform it's all really incredible uh to see the growth of this ecosystem and I'm I'm curious about what your favorite AVS

ideas are and what are the coolest things that you've seen built in around aan layer I know you probably don't want to pick any winners or something but I just want to plant in the listener's mind an example of an ABS what is an ABS and what are your some favorite examples of of them the one way to think about it is you can say like oh run a new consensus chain on top of like this stake and I think that's a simple idea but actually I think the better way of thinking about it is as services so that's why we call them avss originally we were thinking of AVS as actively validated Services we are reorienting the act the abbreviation as autonomous verifiable Services autonomous they run on their own anybody can come and stake

and run the service verifiable so because anybody's running you need to make sure that they're verified at post factor using some kind of onchain slashing contracts and conditions and so those are that's the category of autonomous viable Services a service built on top of ier so what might these Services be first category we started with is you know can can we complement the rollup Centric road map of ethereum right so you know rollups are coming up oh I want to decentralize a sequencer okay maybe I just create a consensus group on I layer and then run it and you know you can decentralize your sequencer you want to have super fast bridging across rollups as long as there's enough economic stake on a bridge the bridge

can pass messages across different rollups easily you want to do some kind of me management if you had a decentralized Network that basically makes sure that ordering is done in some fixed a prior agreed manner that's another example data availability you're normally publishing data on top of ethereum which is the most secure form of data availability but you may need much higher throughput so you know you can you can use a data availability service built on igen layer we ourselves built one called Igan da so igen DA's data throughput just as a kind of like example is at 15 megabytes per second whereas ethereum is like 33 kilobytes

per second so you have like you know couple of orders of magnitude difference there I is built on top of like the ideas of the ethereum road map D sharing so we took the D sharing road map and because now like we just like a small startup team we can actually just move much faster than ethereum just to move very carefully and so this is provides a layer of acceleration and Innovation to ethereum so that's these are examples of the rollup Centric road map and how igen layer Services complemented then you can move to oh maybe it's not just a rollup Centric road map maybe there are all kinds of other things and one category I'm particularly excited about is called co-processors vitalic recently wrote this article called glue and

co-processor so ethereum evm could be the glue and then on top of which you can run like arbitrary Services as co-processors on top and you can have two kinds of co-process one is something that runs the thing offchain and then proves it using zero knowledge proofs that you're actually doing it correctly or you could have cryptoeconomic games which make sure that like the people who are doing it are doing it correctly it's the same like optimistic Wass a ZK type tradeoff and what kinds of things could be built in this cryptoeconomic or you know co-processors you could build AI okay so this is like now the big deal a lot of people know you know you also did a recent episode on AI this is something that we're very passionate about when

you think about AI you want to make sure that AI is verifiable when you bring the output onchain and if your eii is not verifiable it's not interesting so you know you can run an AI offchain but bring it onchain in a verifiable manner you can run you know other kinds of offchain processes like I want to run a database I want to run SQL I want to run a game offchain but bring the results onchain I want to run some ZK proving all kinds of interesting things so that's that's another category another category is you know these cryptographic Services I want to run now I want to store a secret on this decentralized network where I don't let any one node have all the secret I split it into small chunks and through spread them

through the network so this is like secret sharing you know U secure multiparty computation these kinds of networks you know we have several of these being built on on AG fully homomorphic encryption I want to do computation on top of encrypted data I don't want to do computation on Raw text I want to do computation on directly on encrypted data and you can do that so we have a few of those trusted execution environments Hardware encryption right so Hardware is guaranteeing that you're running inside some you know protected Hardware which you cannot leak the secrets outside so that's another category so each of these actually like it's really interesting like uh one and a half years back I just gave a presentation showing all these

different categories and now like for each one there is more than one player building on I letter so it's kind of like amazing to see that one another like really uh interesting category is some kind of proofs right proofs not like zero knowledge proofs or computation proofs but proofs of other attributes one example is proof of a location right so we in the whole crypto economy is decentralized trust but decentralized one aspect of decentralized is geographic decentralization how do I testify to a network where I am in on the world like can I prove to a network that I'm in a certain location and so how would you do that just like in a GPS right so you basically have nodes trying

to like send you information and depending on the latency of how fast the information goes and comes back you can deduce where the node is and if you can do that in an adversary resistant manner even if some nodes are giving you adversarial answers together there are enough nodes to give you the right information so that's a pro of location service so prove of location proof of humanity I so this is another category which is popping up on I can learn quite a bit ZK TLS right which is web proofs so normally when you think of an article you're reading data from the internet into the blockchain but this data is public but the data may be under my login right like it's this is pretty much all of the most interesting data on

the Internet is under my login as an example I'm a Uber driver and I want to move to a new R sharing Network I built up over three years like a 4.9 rating on U and I want to bring it to a new platform but now Uber controls my data and says like hey you know I I'm not going to send that information to somebody else but you know if you think of it from a user owned perspective the user should be able to prove to this new network that that's really what is happening that I can I actually have this 4.9 rating from over this is very difficult to do and there are like protocols on I you know several of them actually giving you the ability to do this which I think is a huge transformation because you know in

crypto we talk a lot about like the users should own the data but normally I used to think this is only possible going forward right new systems that are being built can have this property but what we are able to do is to take your data from web to and bring it in a manner that you own it yourself I think that's a huge I mean if so one of the things we talk a lot about inside like the ion light ecosystem is how do you vampire attack the whole Cloud right so you can bring all of that into the crypto self-owned rails yeah so that's a overview of the different categories on I thanks for that um I want to move out of the what uh what does igen layer do um I think that's been covered in a lot

of different places across the ecosystem and start moving into more green pill uh questions and um you know I think that there's sort of an interesting intersection of of my work and in in your work and I'm curious to find it and pull some of those threads and kind of play jazz a little bit together on top of it and so the way I'm going to tee off that section of the of the conversation is why are we here why what are we building towards what's the why behind the what yeah this is uh for me the first kind of time that I got interested in crypto was when I related that this idea of um you know U Harari in his sapiens says you know humans are special not because we are intelligent

but because we cooperate flexibly in large numbers and so this became like a very important pivotal thing for me and actually like changed a lot of my personal understanding of how things work in the world and as I was thinking about it and you you see like the friction to cooperation is trust right so I cooperate with you if if I know I can trust you and if we can solve trust then we create this emergent large scale cooperation which is a crazy crazy you know upgrade for Humanity so this is like this became my operating thesis for why you know crypto just like the internet became the information Super Highway crypto could be our coordination

Super Highway and so this is a crazy interesting superb like view for what crypto should be and I had at that time not discovered a lot of like you know uh Kevin your work and the ethereum work on coordination it was just like coming from somewhere else and I like okay you know if this is the main thing then coordination is you know cooperation coordination mechanisms for coordination are actually like really valuable so I was almost operating kind of out of and on my own thesis without actually like having a rich intersection it's really only three years back that that I discovered like not discovered all the rich work that had been going on in the

ethereum ecosystem and that oh actually there's like a large thriving culture around like Tak taking the idea of like how to build better coordination systems and then express it and like there's this big you know community and movement you know some of which you lead here Kevin uh really uh excited to discover that and I I'd say like this maybe the dominant reason I chose to build in the eum ecosystem because you know it's like when you have a CH Vision anybody who builds more coordination I'm happy like I don't have to be the guy to do it somebody else is doing it that's even better because together we can access WR this much faster so that's how I really got into like the ethereum thing this is

around like 2022 uh January February around e Denver and I first time realized oh actually these guys care exactly about the things that we had some very high level thesis but like they're actually trying to implement it so that that was a big realization for me and starting from that I've been looking at where is the concrete manifestation where is right now like where is the score ination actually happening inside crypto and where can we actually take it to accelerate it so that's kind of like the overarching structure and over these like not just three years that I've been building Aon layer but over the last seven eight years I've been working on crypto I've been refining this one like

a model that kind of informs all my work and and I call this the coordination Innovation model so what is the idea here the idea is any kind of like a successful logic scale system like um you know let's take the United States as an example like has an underlying layer of coordination like the Constitution the government and a layer of innovation that enables a layer of innovation on top right like the free market where people can exchange goods and services to each other and this free market is created fundamentally because the coordination layer Constitution assures things like property rights because now by taking that out making credible

commitments that if you own a property you own a property now anybody else can trade rights to that property and like create value and move that around really easily on top of the free market so there is a layer of coordination underpinning a layer of innovation and so this was the starting point and you know when when we start thinking about you know you talk a lot about postive sum nonzero sum games and if you think about it I think fundamentally there are only two archetypal non-zero some games non-zero some games are those where like all players win right it's not coming out of a win lose game and when when you think about what are the possible

archetypal games I think there are only really two like one is innovation where you invent something from nothing and the other one is coordination where n people come together and do something more than the sum of the parts and so coordination and Innovation are these two like nonzero sum games and they are actually nested fractally you know one on top of the other so you can think of like even going back to like evolutionary time scale you would see something like when you had these before you have like these multicellular organisms you have inside a cell the first time you have a specialization into a nucleus and a mitochondria and a mitochondria is like specializing in energy production nucleus specializing

in information propagation but these two are coordinating so coordination at that scale leads to Innovation Innovation is multicellular organisms so you see this in the long Arc of History evolutionary history that actually new coordination systems arise and then new innovation gets built and then out of which emerges a new coordination system and then you go on so if you plot like progress over an evolutionary time scale you see like I I say this that Innovation is evolutionary like you build on top of each other's Innovation and coordination is revolutionary because coord ination systems rarely arise because coordination requires a binding commitment from n parties and different

parties have to come together in order to accept agree opt in to a new coordination system that's why it's very very very difficult to build new coordination systems not because you know they are inherently hard but because they require convergence and optin and so coordination systems are rare to arise and even harder to mutate if they're not those covenants are not built in and this is you know explain for to me like you know the for example what happened with Bitcoin Bitcoin arose as this new coordination system for like you know permission L money but it's so hard to mutate it like you know before I got into to like actually building Aon layer I was like hey here's a new consensus protocol can we get Bitcoin to use it and then I didn't understand like

how hard it is to mutate a coordination system it's very very very difficult so the thesis is you know there is layers of societal evolutionary progress even is made out of like you know layers of innovation and then new layer of coordination arising on top and then which en enables encourages new layers of innovation built on top and then these are fractally nested and all these different agents kind of compete with each other to actually create this like net growth engine and so and then I saw that oh if we can actually you know and seeing Bitcoin and ethereum kind of be born before our I so to say over the

last decade gives us confidence that oh maybe this game's not over like it's not it's possible to build new coordination systems and create them so that those are really powerful useful for all the people they serve all the people that are building on top igen lab's own vision is to build humani coordination engine so this is our goal it's nothing to do with reaking or even staking or you know uh building decentralized networks it's about to create Humanities coordination engine that's our dominant value and out of which we just found one small thing to do to begin with and that that was what was we sing beautiful um I'm a coordination maximalist so this is all music to my ears uh just to play

that back for the audience there's um layers of societal innovations that took coordination to get and then built new coordination substrates for the generations that came after them and we take some of them for granted by the way we're recording this over one of those coordinat layers tcpip and the internet and so there's these layers of innovation on top of innovation you can always think of almost think of those as like layers of sediment and they're fractally nested on top of each other and each generation sort of pushes forward the amount of hyper complexity the amount of uh processes that that Civilization needs to do in order to process its information and its resource allocation and you have identified that trust is a limiter uh in doing that and igen layers is sort of the big leverage

point of igen layer is is decentralizing trust making it easier to tap giant pools of trust and that's in service of building Humanity's coordination engine and that's your most dominant value did I play that back for the audience way you agree with absolutely got it yeah so when you think about coordination um I so I have this equation I call coordination is equal to communication plus commitment okay so I know you think of is what what are coordination systems coordination system systems require the ability for n parties to First communicate with each other easily right like the internet is our communication superway so I can actually communicate with you because of

the internet but what is missing is the ability for us to enter into binding commitments right so I I want to do a commitment that you know something happens then you know for example this podcast output we share equally or something how do we do that how do we enter into these kinds of binding commitments the internet didn't have a native substrate to do it when you think of commitments and who makes and keeps how do you keep or enforce commitments this is like the really important bottleneck of like coordination systems is who keeps the commitments who enforces the commitments how can we trust them so one way to you know one uh you taxonomy you can think of of commitments is on the most historically like dominant one was

Authority enforced commitments right so a single Authority like a king comes and they enforce commitments and for example they say like write a deed and say that Kevin owns this house this whatever and like they honor it right so you can have a Authority enforced commitments you can have a committee enforced commitments like some party like the CCP comes together and decides like you know how much like something needs to happen right even in the US you see something like the Federal Reserve is a committee that decides like monetary policy you have uh committees that make major decisions so like committee committee based enforcement systems on another level like the thing is committees are more robust than authorities but

committees are uh plagued with you know what is the incentive of the committee like does it diverge from the incentive of everybody what is the selection bias inherent in the committee like is it representative in some way like so you have these kinds of problems that go into the committee uh based enforcement then you go to the next level is majority based enfor enforcement like a pure democracy like a group of people come together and they vote and they make some decisions but even in a majority based commitment there is a tyranny of the majority you know a majority can screw a minority like arbitrarily and all of us are minorities in some way or the other right like if this SES and dies you know across different axes everybody's a minority so

there's a tyranny of majority that goes in with like majority enforced commitments then you ask what is the deepest most robust rigid system of commitments and we call it self enforcing commitments commitments that just enforce themselves and you know it's mindboggling Concept in some like very fundamental way that that's even possible and I think historically it's worth thinking about what those kinds of commitments were and for example when you had countries you know back to the ancient days of kings and countries had to trade with each other a king cannot trust another king or another King's commit you're another King's Kingdom's majority to like trade with each other

so you had to find some resource some mechanism if I am trading across the trust boundary which is Kingdoms in ancient days and if I'm trading across the trust boundary I need to be holding value do value transfer which is self enforcing and I think out of this pressure evolutionary pressure arose something like gold or kind of like these kinds of rare Metals as like a mechanic M to trade because when you give me a piece of gold it's self verifiable to me like that that's a piece of gold because I know what gold is and that serves as a value transfer commitment because now I can then like pass it along and no King no committee no majority can say that's not gold

right because it's self verifiable and so this became the Bedrock of I think the modern economy is because gold could interact transact across trust boundaries it's a self- enforcing value transfer commitment so you created this like really powerful self enforcing system you know back in the day but the thing with gold is just like you know Bitcoin is modern version of gold it's purely just value transfer like I can just give you value transfer it's not value assignment right value assignment would be like to come and say hey if a andb and c and the C things happen then I get this much amount of value then you

get this much more value it's it's much more expressive and gold is not and so what we saw is going from there to all kinds of complex things I I would say the modern version of this is something like the Constitution you know the Bill of Rights is almost self- enforcing it's not exactly self-enforcing but it's almost self- enforcing because when somebody you know comes and tries to claim power and they violate the constitution the kind of like the immune system you know wakes up and like oh my God like this this is violation of the constitutional rights all the stuff and I think in between era religious texts actually served this purpose because even if you're a king you're not above the religious text like a religious text

kind of like lives on its own Merit and you know Kings used to like sometimes distort religious text to their advantages but at least you had to comply to something that you can't like unilaterally violate so I think of like self- enforcing systems went through like three faces before crypto like you had the gold era you had the religious era you had the Constitution era Constitution is a distillation of the coordination elements of religion you just take the coordination elements and then like just write it down into like a constitution and so that's that's the Constitution and what I think of as crypto is accelerating the self- enforcing nature of coordination systems

so that's the next i' love to like you know talk a little bit hear your perspective on how you think about these different uh versions of coordination systems yeah again beautiful and I can't wait to relisten to this when I'm not a deer in the headlights hosting the episode and I'm actually uh you know listening as I walk through the woods which is where I listen to podcasts these days but um what I heard there let me just play it back and then I'll react to it so a big uh we're building Humanities coordination engine and coordination equals uh communication plus commitment now we can enter into binding commitments with smart contracts that are self-reinforcing there's been a history of how we've done commitments and that's been through the gold era the religious era and then the Constitution

era and now we're sort of entering the onchain era of commitments did I play that back good amazing okay cool um so for me I've actually pivoted a lot of my like mimetic work in thinking from regen uh which is I think what I'm known for it's like you know like good for the world positive some games like Boulder Colorado hippie uh kind of stuff um into onchain Capital allocation is the meme that we've been focused on and capital allocation is a little bit more sharp it's a little bit more technical it's sophisticated it feels more like a power tool not something that's coming out of you know someone playing frisbee uh at CU Boulder which by the way I still love frisbee I still have these values but I'm now just like leading with the

capital allocation stuff and it's because I think that Capital allocation has been reinvented through history through the gold era through the religious era through the Constitution era um from things like just resource sharing networks back in the hunter gatherer you know how we distribute the Harvest in in the agricultural era to in the industrial era how do we ship means of production to be more efficient in batch processing and all that and so anyway there's this long change in evolution as Society changes as the coordination substrate changes of how we allocate capital and I actually think that figuring out the onchain era of capital allocation is like the layer below how do we solve coordination failure for me because you have to be able to allocate resources to

the things that you want whether it's growing your company for profit or uh the regen stuff the biodiversity support the climate change all of that kind of stuff and so for me the lens that I bring to this conver conversation is is capital allocation and now that we have these new ways of decentralizing trust and creating commitments I think that you can create bounded rules where the problems with human coordination that we've had before no longer exists you know you can get around the free rider problem you can get around the sort of like the tyy of the majority you the basically we've got this Infinite Canvas which is ethereum to build these uh allocation circuits in order to allocate funding to what matters gin's mission is actually fund what matters and capital allocation is like the how we do that

and I kind of think of like a couple Generations ago uh Taiwan semiconductor really got to become a very important systemic part of the economy by etching just circuits into silicon and now I think there's going to be this next generation of builders that are going to be allocating like etching circuit Capital allocation circuits onto ethereum so ethereum is sort of like the Silicon that that we're building these circuits on and and what are the ways in which we can build more positive sum games more for-profit structures more just better better coordination towards the outcomes we want using this more efficient and effective medium to do Capital allocations let's just do the capital allocation on chain so I'm I struggling to end on a question here for you but you know uh what is the

intersection of credible commitments and and onchain capital allocation is I think where I'd love to play jazz for minutes that's that's an amazing amazing setup because when you uh think about Capital right Capital emerges I think out of property rights right so what you call Capital is that something that has like a clear ownership right attached to it right like so it's it's money it's property it's like things that you can own and it you know one of the days you know sometime back I was thinking about what the mar market economies actually is and partly the action of the market economy is to convert things without property rights to things with property

rights I'll just stop there and and want to take your reaction on it the the function of the market economy it's not a normative or uh prescriptive view it's a descriptive view right like it's just saying what the market economy is doing is convert things without property rights to things with property rights you know first I I want to hear your y your opinion on it and then like yeah um I have I have two reactions and they're somewhat Divergent from each other but we can choose our own adventure after I after I volley them over to you the first is that I take for granted the rule of law in the United States because it's been my entire life and I've never known anything different but if you go

back through history and you go to different parts of the world where you don't have property rights you'll see how different the world is uh to not be able to own property and how much that changes the quality of life that that people have so first off I'm trying just not to take for granted the property rights that allow me to own this computer and uh to to do things and and to advance my own well-being through those property rights the second is um a little bit of a Divergent take um and that's that I've been pilled on this idea from Gregory Landa called the eight forms of capital and basically the idea is basically Capital isn't just Financial Capital it's actually intellectual Capital it's spiritual Capital it's material Capital it's social capital and so um I think that

maybe you know having property rights for the financial capital and the financial resources you have enables more retainment of like your intellectual Capital your social capital I I'm sort of taking a stab in the dark here about how property rights would would connect to the other different eight forms of capital but one of the things that that I think is like kind of neat to think about is that this podcast is a form of intellectual Capital that we're producing right here and you know one of the things that I think is really cool about crypto is that we can create new ways of financializing Social and intellectual capital and therefore funding what matters than we ever have before because now we can turn this podcast into an nft by the way please go to pods. medgreen pill collect this episode through Ram's first time on the

episode on the podcast so may be worth collecting but um yeah those are my two reactions is uh don't take property rights for granted and also uh I I think about eight different types of capital eight forms of capital not just Financial Capital That's So Co yeah that's awesome the a lot of this you know other types of capital that you laid out like outside of financial Capital come because there is a social mechanism to attribute that back to you right like people just don't take others ideas you know and and and then like the for example the distribution mechanism that we have today which is that you know we're just on the internet and throwing this up to like anybody to listen uh is unimaginable 30 years back because who controls the platform

controls who presents the idea right like you and I may have great ideas and then like but somebody else has the platform and they will control the their they'll relate as their idea and so on you know and one of the things that we see is as coordination systems become more expressive you see that you can specialize right like as you know when you think about Capital allocation Venture Capital as like an example of specialization of capital uh and ideas and innovation right capital and Innovation so somebody brings Capital somebody brings innovation ideas and they can meet and work together to actually create an output as opposed to having a double coincidence of the guy

who has a lot of money also has a lot of ideas and each one is very unlikely and like together they become extremely unlikely so that kind of like the better the coordination systems that arise the more like these different forms of capital can you know what you're calling capital rate forms of capital can be coordinated to actually produce useful net outputs and so better forms of coordination actually enable exactly like what uh and and maybe this is underneath you're articulating this in your upcoming book as well that this is the the idea that you can have new forms of expressive Capital allocation you know using these onchain tools is

actually going to enable more forms of coordination across these different types of you know uh resources Capital that people actually have you know one one area where I'm I'm really excited to to sort of like another look at look at the intersection between um onchain Capital allocation and the igen layer uh ecosystem is that uh I wrote I wrote this post uh a couple months ago entitled reaking is regen and basically like the core idea be behind that was that uh raking is creates yield in the form of productive e economic activity uh sort of of like not for free but like on top of the pool of capital that's already securing the ethereum network

and there's this idea in nature of things that are exothermic uh which basically means that they give off heat um so like an example of that is the sun all of the life on planet Earth uh derives energy from the Sun or from other sources of heat like like volcanic volcanic heat or you know in some cases now we have nuclear reactions on on Earth and and so this idea of exothermic in nature is related to heat but there's um econom I Ally exothermic structures in crypto and in our economy one of them is ethereum actually run a Staker in and so um I've got economically exothermic like yield going into uh my own personal economy from that but what I'm really excited about is letting a thousand

different experiments that are economically exothermic in the AVS ecosystem flow into these onchain Capital allocation structures and create positive feedback loops first with like the uh sorry you're not calling them abss anywhere you're calling them services but um it's still avss yeah it's just autonomous verifiable services but yeah sure yeah but like how do we plug in that like the thing that you bring to the table that I think we've been looking for is like I've been funding public goods with dog coins for four years and like much respect to the Akita Community like we love you thank you for for partnering with us but like I I I want like a yield that is more like eth or like US dollars that that we that we can plug into these onchain Capital allocation Frameworks and and I think that there's an impedance matching

vitalic said it on his episode between um allocating Capital to public goods and raising money for public goods and you kind of like wholesale solve that problem with with igen layer and so you know I'm you know is is reaking regen you know what do you think about the connection of of these two idea sets together yeah you know one of the like when we think about strategy positioning all this stuff we have two axes that we think about like you know the x-axis is like how long-term something is right so how deep intellectual like is it actually like something net good long-term useful all of that kind of stuff on the x-axis on the y- axis you think about is it friendly to somebody who is in it for the short term is it

somebody in a financial oriented position and so you know you can think of the like the y- axis is Deen the x-axis is like just pure postive some like good and I think of like can we matchmake these two things because mostly great idea need energy to like take off right some kind of activation energy and the activation energy can come from this Deen part to actually Supply it because if you're purely in the Deen axis what happens is you are in like a zero some speculation right like know you just speculated it's PVP exactly yeah and so when you connect that with this you know long-term

Builder you know type thinking what is long-term positive uh outcomes then essentially you can bootstrap new systems new technologies new things that are net good based on the energy of speculation and this fits in with another like mental model that I use a lot is when you have these you know you you talk a lot about these multi-polar traps or like coordination failures right so you think of another way of visualizing that is through this landscape of solutions so you have like x- axis is all possible solutions and y- axis is like how good a solution is and you have these non-convex problems where you have like a local Maxima like a local Hill but the best solution is like

a global Hill but to go from a local Maxima to a global Maxima you have to go through a valley right like and this is the difficult difficult part in like actually solving coordination failures is you have to get people to compromise their self-interest in order to go to this new Global Maxima and I think that is usually a very difficult thing to pull off and one thing we realize and I think there's another place where coordination and this Capital allocation thesis kind of intersect is by articulating what the value of the new Hill is what you can do is to to say Hey you know if this new Hill manifests itself This Global Maxima

manifests itself there's this much value and what I am doing is borrowing from that value and then giving people today so that it's not shortterm like net negative it's actually short-term positive and so what happens is you kind of construct this virtual ramp between this local Maxima and that Global Maxima by borrowing from that future articulating what the future is and why in that future this thing will be valuable and then creating this virtual ramp on which you can transport people into that better Global Maxima and so this informs a lot of our thinking and this is again like connects to the two two AIS thesis that I was Pres ing earlier just find a global Maxima and

then find the pathway where you can actually use the tools of finance and capital allocation to actually like balance to construct this ramp and you know if I was saying earlier about this coordination Innovation thesis that coordination systems are very hard to arise right and they're hard to arise precisely because of this like Valley problem that you have to cross from one societal equilibrium to another societal equilibrium you to go through do a valley which is not individually rational to do and nominally we we appeal to altruism to like act through this Valley and but the problem is only a very small fraction of people can actually or even in a position because

of all the constraints to act purely in an altruistic manner whereas if we can actually make it a win-win for all of the parties then you actually can construct and the idea of a capital the economic system as a mechanism to express that is I think really powerful so you can actually solve pretty much any coordination failure not just using all the Technologies and tools of commitments that we are talking about but also by leveraging the financial economic instruments of borrowing from the future which is a really powerful idea and one way it manifest in crypto is people give tokens to bootstrap all the different sides of their Marketplace

what's the token the token is a representation of the value of this potential future if the network manifest itself it actually has some value and you're able to give a portion of that ownership a portion of that value initially the valley is really steep like you may just fall off and and tie so you give an excess you need a lot of boost in the initial period to actually compensate for the risk that people are taking and then you have to balance it out over time so so that's another place I think where the coordination thesis and the capital allocation thes is kind of like come together which is by understanding this landscape by being able to articulate the value of the future of this coordination system where that value is shared more equitably and

taking a portion of the value from that to compensate for the Risk Takers to actually move opt in to like a new coordination system I think we can actually transport people from One local Maxima to the global Maxima yeah that's beautiful I have a visual diagram of this and if you're watching on YouTube hopefully uh or editor Kean can can put it up but basically the visual that I think is in both of our Mind's Eye right now is this idea of a search space um where the the xais is is um all of the different like Capital allocation constructions or coordination constructions that could be out there and then the y axis is how effective are they at solving some problem creating value for something and basically what we are in is a decentralized search space in order to find the best

structures for solving the problems that exist in coordination and if if the industrial or like like the internet era structure is like is like Yay big then the onchain uh search space is much bigger because now we have credible commitments through smart contracts we have igen layer and this big pool of decentralized trust that is the ethereum network and so we're kind of like going off of the map of what's already been discovered by existing economics and into uh it's like when you go into Zelda and you discover a new area and you get the map for that area we're we're kind of like going into this world of credible commitments and and onchain capital allocation and yield and all those kind of things and just trying to figure out what is the best construction for coordinating human activity in the

21st century and another thing I heard there is that different agents will have different reward functions and one of the things we can do with credible commitment is bind our individual good what's good for us with group good uh at a local you know Statewide and and Global level binding those incentives by making it more attractive to solve to solve problems together I think is like one way that that we get to that 33 we get to that that coordinate coordinate uh square and so um yeah hopefully the visuals on YouTube can help but I think it's a really exciting distributed search problem is to figure out how we come up with the construction that can accelerate coordination build the coordination Super Highway as you said

about 20 minutes ago yeah one of the most exciting things we can be doing anywhere and you know going back to this coordination Innovation thesis one thing you can think of you know and it's probably on top of a lot of people's mind is hey you know there is this whole AI era coming up and you know you just did an episode on this right so this AI era coming up and uh how does you know all of this crypto stuff fit in with that and the coordination Innovation thesis actually tells us like something really insightful there if you think of innovation AI is like the accelerant for innovation right AI is innovation acceleration Innovation is any one

individual can actually like do some action improve themselves and AI is really really powerful in in that Dimension and crypto is coordination acceleration right so you can think of the extremal point of innovation acceleration is AI the extremal point of coordination acceleration is crypto so now like that informs me like how these structures will interact with each other that that like what sets of things and interesting new things can happen in the future and the question that is really interesting in on that side is like where is this what is going to be that big thing that happens when these two structures interact with each other Ai and crypto so that could be like a really interesting next topic for

conversation so if you think about this like uh picture of hey Art progress happening evolutionarily and you know just keeps increasing and then suddenly there's a bump due to coordination and then progress keeps happening evolutionarily and then suddenly there's bump due to coordination you know another way of asking this question is like what is the next big PMP in coordination what is it is it going to do and you know when we like had the vision for igen labs as like to build Humanities coordination engine it's like okay crypto is Humanities coordination engine let's just go accelerate let's go make it more expressive let's go make it you know do more things and now with this view which is you know Innovation is maximally accelerated by AI what is it that crypto can do to like kind of

move this picture forward there is a lot I think to happen on this intersection where crypto serves as the coordination substrate for AI so we were talking earlier about like coordination is communication plus commitments and crypto can kind of like can make uh and keep self- enforcing commitments so when you think about the commitments and how like commitments can be made in the era you can think of two broad categories of commitments or maybe three broad categories commitments that humans can make to AIS okay and commitments that AIS can make to AIS and commitments that AI can make to humans and know of course

already like we're talking about commitments humans can make to humans right so there just four possible combinations there humans and AI right human to human human to ai ai to human and AI to Ai and like each of these actually are something interesting and Rich to think about um if you think about the human commitments to AI right like right now what's happening with AI agents is mostly people are running agents on their server and then calling it a kind of autonomous AI agent right and if you wear a kind of like a decentralization maxi crypto hat you're like man this is stupid this sucks right like it's just some guy running their server so I have this picture where I say like um an agent controlling an

ethereum wallet is not very different from an agent controlling a stripe API it's kind of the same thing right like you if you run it on a server it's exactly the same thing right because you know it's just like it's doing some call to your bank it's doing some call to your ethereum wallet so there's no real kind of foundational difference if it's if both of them are you know controlled by an individual When Things become different is when the AI itself runs like a smart contract on chain right I should be able to just go and say oh you know just like I run an ethereum smart contract I should be able to run an AI smart contract right like the output should be as correct and rigid as

writing a smart contract then you suddenly have like Unleashed a new world of possibilities right where you can say oh just write arbitrary AI programs they run on chain and their output is as rigid as correct as accurate as running a onchain contract then this AI is controlled by nobody just like a contract is controlled by nobody they've been like thinking about what this future kind of beckons where you have um new forms of onchain life right we we're calling it AI life right and and the idea is um when you think about you know people think about AI as like okay you know this crazy new thing is going to

come up how does this some AI safety people have for example worried a lot about like oh AI takes off and does its own thing like how do you keep keep it under control all of this kind of stuff but there's no known like clear takeoff mechanism where like it just goes and be its own thing right like maybe a robot which is self-replicating you know and controls a city something like that could be like an example but those are far away right like today we still have ai purely digital can a purely digital AI be its own thing be its own life right and you think of something like what is the units of life you think of there's a unit of information like DNA right you know for a living thing controlling a unit of energy like ATP

like mitochondria produces ATP which is the unit of energy in a living thing it's self-directed like a living system has its own you know that DNA controls that unit of energy not other things and finally it's adapt it's adaptable right so it adapts to the environment so these are the kind of like basic building blocks of a living thing and what we see is you know if you think of an AI agent run on your server it has a unit of information which is its intelligence it has a unit of energy I think of money you know Capital as a unit of energy because it can do go and do action in the real world right so it has a unit of energy it is not self-directed it's not

ultimately self-directed because you can switch off the dang thing and then like it's not self-directed so it's not a new form of life or like oh the agent did it no you are doing it you just like have a computer that is doing it on your behalf right so that that's number three right it's not self-directed number four it's adaptable intelligent right and of course you know these agents can be very intelligent so I think of so that's like a open AI agent you know I would put it in this category a a DA I would put it as like checking of the first three boxes right it's a unit of information is scored right it's controlling a unit of energy which is money and it's self-directed because the onchain property rights and forces itself correctly but it's not that adaptive

internally or just as a DA itself it's so the adaptation is coming from the agents the you the members controlling the Dow actually like exerting their power which is great but that's not a form of Life by itself it's just a coordination mechanism for these units of people coming together so what I think would completely transform this is if you had onchain AI contracts right so then you have a unit of information which is the AI code controlling this money which is onchain using onchain property rights and it's adaptable because as it learns it just keeps improving itself so this I think is going to be like a huge shift in this

intersection between crypto and AI you know is the extremal form of this autonomous AI agent thesis so we are calling this AI life which is it's like now a living form it's like a living you know it's like a life form because it under goes Evolution just like any other life form you know it has its unit of money and then just like any life persists till it's an energy Surplus right you should be able to harvest more energy than you spend than your you know in net energy positive and you can continue going on and then when you cannot Harvest any more energy then you die right like this AI agent is is a float till you have net money Surplus

and then once you don't have net money Surplus you just die right and that forces a unit of evolution on top of it and creates this like really interesting open-ended novel process through which these agents can can evolve and and be created so this is a crazy new thesis that we're working on and like trying to build some of the core components to actually enable this let me just play some of this back to bring the audience along um uh so basically we were talking in our last exchange about the search space of how to like maximally accelerate cordination and and I said that we expanded the search Space by adding

credible commitments with crypto vastly and now we're exploring the search space and then you're like wait but we could expand the search space even more now that we have ai and llms and so there's like you know the AI search space the crypto search space and we can combine them in the crypto AI search space and I I would guess this is just you know finger to the air but like 100x bigger design space than traditional economics ever could have covered because we didn't have these Primitives of crypto and AI before and then you kind of took us to well the next bump for human coordination uh could be commitments either between humans and humans or humans in ai ai to human or AI to Ai and then that'll allow us to um coordinate uh in a more effective way as

you were talking um I couldn't help but think about some of venites ral's work uh where he talks about uh Whitehead advances like this idea where civilization advances by extending the number of important operations that we can perform without thinking of them where like previously hard things become abstracted by better Tech or protocols and we get civilization like the bigger brains to think about higher level concerns I was thinking about as you were kind of going through this um and then we got into this idea of AI life and sort of what are the properties of life it's a unit of information controlling energy um and it self-directedness and sort of the comparison in between Dows and um Dows as on as unchain life and AI onchain life which is a new thought category for

me but assembly theory is basically like uh this idea that all of history is just basically assembling things into each other um basically like electrons and protons become atoms atoms together become molecules molecules become uh cells cells become tissues tissues become organ organs uh organs become organisms and then all of human civilization is sort of like an assembly of of things together and what that brought for me is that from an assembly Theory perspective if you believe that all all of you know history is an assembly Theory like design space uh a search space um how do we direct the flow of evolution of AI and onchain life towards more coordination and not

destruction was sort of the question that that begged for me anyway I was trying to play that back slash also add it layer in a couple reactions from myself but uh do you have any immediate threads that you want to pull out of that yeah the assembly theory is really interesting so when I talked about this you know coordination Innovation thesis uh one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is what is the objective function for this whole system right and and that is something that I've been like pondering a lot about and you know the assembly Theory kind of talks to some aspect of it yeah like where is the routing function of where resources go go exactly exactly and I think like maybe the in me is kind of like likes on social media or money like

the attention economy is a thing and that's the routing mechanism that we kind of have right now would you object to that no I think uh they are definitely right now I think the economy clearly is the dominant routing mechanism and attention as a mechanism for capturing a unit of that money so that like you know you can drive the economy forward seems definitely happening so it's again I think I want to separate the uh normative from the descriptive right so staying purely in the descriptive still and then I I would I want to engage with the normative which is like what is what is right what should we do from what is Just Happening as a descriptive phenomenon and if if I

to just summarize my best understanding of the objective roting function that you know not just in a human society is operating under but this whole like evolutionary Enterprise is operating under my best guess is it's actually optimizing for energy Surplus right so this whole system to gather is as long as it's able to to harvest more free energy than it uses up right than it consumes then just keeps growing the spot of energy controll by life just keeps growing because it's able to take the unit of energy from outside bring it in make more free energy which is more utilizable form of energy and then you

know keep growing that pot so that's and and the reason why I think it's purely descriptive not normative is if you had a system which is successful at this energy Surplus harvesting thing right another system which is less successful at energy Surplus harvesting and these two systems meet the first system which is actually more successful at harvesting energy will harvest energy out of the second system so it's just purely just it's it's kind of like an uh dynamical system where like the system that is actually more efficient at harvesting energy like it up the system that's less efficient at harvesting energy and then just keeps expanding whether it's good for anybody I have no

idea right like it's not a not a a prescriptive thing and whether it's good for humans which I want to engage with and I think it's it's going to be the biggest question of this century is how do we make these crazy things that are happening good for us humans right like that I think is is a non-trivial absolutely interesting important question to engage with but the only way we can do that effectively is by having a purely descriptive theory of like what is actually happening and so what I see happening is the economy as a kind of like a substitute for this energy Surplus maximization machine which is the thermodynamic machine

operating and you know Society constructing what we found is systems that are deviating farther from this energy Surplus maximizing machine have harder time to actually like find survival right like even if they're based on you know more goodness or better ideas in in some other dimension okay so let's just to lay out this uh this objective function would love to hear your thoughts before I take the next point there yeah so I mean I think the the primary thing I want playback here is difference between descriptive uh and normative which I had to ask chat GPT what that meant but uh descriptive is how things are normative is how things

ought to be um and then uh so basically we're as we're trying to find the objective function for for all of this uh um there's an analogy between the economy which routes money uh which is sort of an abstraction of energy uh and like how energy moves around around nature and systems that deviate further from getting energy surpluses um in nature have a harder time for survival it's not impossible but it's harder in systems that deviate from I guess profitability or like Capital flows in the economy um have a harder time to survival unless they bolt on to a larger system that you know they're swimming in their wake or something so those are the things I just want to play back for the audience before we continue the conversation yeah that that's a great summary well you're awesome at like

taking like a 10-minute rant and then just making it like a 10 second I had Daniel scharber on the podcast so uh I've had practice much love to in respect for to Daniel he's like the rich chocolate cake of intellectual theory on a lot of this stuff um but I I think it's important to bring the audience along as as as we're doing a lot of this stuff and um yeah but uh yeah let's continue but by way that was one of my favorite episodes I'll talk a little bit to it later yeah thanks the um and you know one of the things I really love about the greenv podcast is the types of you know this kind of people that you bring in and we get introduced in and you're like who's this guy let me go and listen to T of's other podcast before you can decode what

the hell is going on yeah thanks so much the question that's on my mind now is what is the objective routing function uh for the economy that we're building um yeah I was uh going for a purely descriptive version which is that it's mostly energy Surplus maximization and the the the way that I think this relates to the aggregator theory that you laid out is that uh larger coordinated systems can actually like have much better way to to do this function because if you let everybody if you had a

non-coordinated unit then everybody's basically replicating the same base level actions right and and you get a very suboptimal system whereas when you have each individual agent each individual person actually doing uh attacking this problem at different scales and times then you have a much better chance that actually the net ability to harvest energy here just increases so in this view coordination and Innovation are just serving as tools to like towards this like descriptive output view going to the agent ai ai life type thesis so what is likely to so what is what is likely

to happen here is that this kind of like fully onchain like life can actually live and die on its own and be subject to the forces of evolution by itself and it can start creating new units of value right like the agents can you know right now be an influencer or like do participate in a DA or like big make various actions all this kind of stuff and so you you will have something really really interesting here where just like DNA became the substrate on top of which carbon based life including ourselves or model crypto could be the substrate on top of which this new kind of species AI life is

created and it needs this this uh this substrate because it's purely digital it doesn't even have a body like you know doesn't can't just live and die in know it's it needs coordination even to exist exist right it's like a very interesting type of a creature right so it's an onchain AI agent where it needs to basically like coordinate other people have nodes Run It software everything to actually even exist and this self- enforcing coordination system that we've created this crypto thing can actually serve as that rigid substrate on top of which these systems these things are

created Okay so you can think of this I put all of this as a kind of uh category of commitments that humans are making to AI so that this AI life can be created be born right so that's that's where I placed this you can also think of like hey if you want to let this kind of new creature be created new AI life be created what are the constraints that humans what are the commitments we should extract from these AIS right like that is an equally important question and I would say something like safety as a core criteria safety as in you know is ISA aimo and his book has these azimov

loss right like you know of what constraints a robot should should ail like a robot should never harm a human and so on like you can think of oh maybe we should have these AIS you know subscribe to some commitments that they cannot violate or you know if they're if they violated they will not be alive anymore right so you have this conditions that you can say for example like you know if you violate azim's laws then you'll be terminated right like it's a kind of onchain self- enforcing commitment that you know AI might be able to enter into in fact should be a required condition for these airs to even be created in this kind of self- enforcing

manner another one is going Beyond safety is symbiosis right so maybe we we should say like hey you know as as humans we don't want these a to be created unless they're symbiotic and so how do we create conditions like where you know they are symbiotic and one way is that hey these AI life is created and they have to pay like a portion of taxes tribute to a human da in order for them to even exist and these are conditions enforced on chain and like you know I think of this future where like you know I interact with this AI life and then it says safe and then it says symbiotic otherwise like I don't interact with this stuff because it's dangerous or it's not like

paying its tribute to humans and and I think this commitments that both of these commitments actually turns out like the commitments that humans want to make to a that a are this you know self- running automated system and the commitments that AI want to make you know should be making to humans which is about safety like aimos laws and um and uh in a symbiosis these kinds of commitments I think are right now not well expressable in blockchains okay so I I'll get to that but before that any comments on this like phrasing of like AI life as kind of coming into shape because it's able to

coordinate resources and and stuff that humans have created but because it's you know it's it's it's bootstrapping of a human uh system we want to make sure that they're safe to us and like symbiotic to us and so by setting up this multi-polar trap inside of which they're operating like so we set the incentive substrate on top of the AI agents are created by doing that we can actually like make it be a positive sum game rather than be like you know a wind lose game yeah um yeah just to play this back for the audience so basically um the coordination system that has been created here blockchains uh are a substrate upon which these systems can

replicate and receieve resources go through natural selection or some sort of selection maybe it's not natural just like how DNA in physics is the substrate for traditional life that created a little bit of a brain explosion in me hopefully for the listeners it does as well and then once you've gotten there the question is what are the category of commitments that humans are making to AIS and AIS to humans and you know the basic one is probably safety uh AI safety you know don't don't harm harm humans but then you can move towards abundance once you've established safety and so uh how do we create conditions where these the AIS are symbiotic um and especially if the AI are going to take all of our our jobs one day uh which you know a Shaw did say on the ai6 Z podcast

you know could they pay taxes to a human da or we're GNA have um AI yield going into a Ubi Dow one day and Ubi just provides for for humans to be able to survive so I just played that back for the audience I guess the question I have is um you know wouldn't the AI already be sort of like aligned to a certain subsets of humans because we're running the data centers through which they're like there's like an analogy I was in Costa Rica like nine months ago and I saw this group of termites that were up on a tree and I was wondering to myself will the termites will the termites cut down the tree upon which their nest relies like I don't want to compare AI to termites in anything more than just like you know it's a swarm of intelligence here and any other

connotations I don't mean to have here but like when AI is not want to cut down the tree of like the data centers that they that of the humans that are running them and maybe like my Counterpoint to that is um maybe it's only the B billionaires who have the data centers and so the AIS are only aligned to billionaires unless we explicitly program them to be aligned to all Humanity like what's your reaction to that thought thought I I think that's a really good important thought Loop the first one is I think existing ways in which these AIS are run are basically like oh it's an open AI agent really right like you know it's it's may say it's your agent but it's really an open AI agent so that's why when we when I think of like AI life I think of its own

being like it's not it's not anybody's thing what it's doing is it's controlling an onchain contract it has money in it and then it's going to say like hey anybody come and run my nodes for me and I'm going to make sure that they're verifiable everything and then like once people come in and run their nodes and like produce actions I'm going to actually use this spot of money to continue doing actions based on my own like execution right like this AI intelligence kind of controls this part of money so in this sense it's not tethered attached to any one unit of data center or company or individual right it's its own being I think it's very important like this is my I think

this is a very different thesis from what everybody's talking about autonomous agents like they're thinking of Agents as like you know my thing or like you know somebody's thing you're thinking of sovereign agents like yeah okay yeah they're totally Sovereign and they have their own motives right so over time they'll develop their own motives because they're intelligent and they're learning by experience and they have a partt of money that they control and nobody else can take away so this is a very extreme view of like where things can go and I'm actually like I think it's like not even three years out like it's it's happening and in fact like my uh projection would be that maybe in 10 years the AI life GDP might be as big as human

GDP um because I don't see a fundamental reason for it not to be the case that's that's all like if you just like extrapolate the possibility it's not clear that's why does that does that presume sorry sorry I was just going to say like uh we were questioning earlier what the objective function of this thing would be does that presume that it's still the same objective function it's GDP uh in in that 10 years 10 years out that's a great that's a great question uh in this embodiment what's happening is because it's basically has a unit of money and then if it runs out of money just dies so agents which Harvest money better are going to survive more so that's that's the atomic unit of energy like you know Photon in nature is a token in in crypto okay

that's correct exactly yeah so that's that's roughly what what goes on in this thing but I think it's still different from so this is this is a very interesting realization for me recently is this is still very different from Agents trying to like just optimize for energy Surplus or even just attain energy Surplus is very different or monetary Surplus is very different from optimizing for energy Surplus okay so let me just lay out the difference between these two things U you know we say evolution is the survival of the fittest right is kind of like a popular term but it's not really the fittest like so many species survive all they

all all the fittest it's survival of the fit enough right like you just need to be fit enough that you're basically in energy Surplus is what I think fit enough means if you can Harvest more energy than you spend then you you you're a Bonafide life you don't need any other permit to be alive you just need to harvest more energy than you spend so whereas the a lot of the capital economy is oriented towards so suppose you know Kevin controls like you know 10,000 agents okay and all the agents are in energy or monetary Surplus which means they make more money than they spend right they're spending money on gpus and other stuff notes people are

running notes for them whatever but these agents uh spend more money or these agents uh are still in energy Surplus but what you know if you if they're all your agents what you would do is you would sit and say h the top 10 agents are basically making a 30 % APR and the bottom like 990 agents are all like you know making less than 1% APR I don't need these agents I eugenic them and then like you know I I just have replicate the top 10 so this is roughly I think what happened in industrial agriculture right industrial agriculture tends to monoculture because you know you just have a couple of metrics yield

per unit area yield per unit dollar yield per unit water whatever like the dominant resources and then just like optimize it and there's like a couple of species that's a solution for the problem and they're just planted everywhere right and right now ai is approaching monoculture right like you have like the open AI if you find like if you're using GPD 4 and you find like you know O3 has shown up you're going to be like just screw GPD 4 I'm going to O3 right like everybody even though gb4 is at energy Surplus right so it's actually able to give you more value than it spend this gives you like as a ratio more value and then like you just switch so what happens in these monoculture systems is you don't have novelty and

Divergence these are very important emergent properties of evolution right you know people say oh humans are the at the Apex of whatever creation whatever but you look around we're one out of like I don't know billions of species right and it's because each spe species is hyper optimized on its Niche right and you know you know that's roughly how my thesis of AI life should be it's Divergent novel new interesting Ved as opposed to monoculture you know controlled by like one Mega Corp Mega billionaire in fact I think the second world even even scarier as it appears right like oh it's these

Li yeah life they're just on their own I think is better it's much more compliant with the kind of broader Arc of like history than the first one which is you know we're worried about monoculture agricultural safety right like you know what happens if something happens to like that crop what happens to this Mega intelligence if it goes crazy right like you know whereas you have like many units of sovereign intelligences and they are they have Divergent views and just like us right they have Divergent views and Divergent things and Divergent objectives and different goals and that's I think a much better world if you just play out the Two Worlds that are possible and so

a lean on like this the Symmetry principle of like diversity plurality many small intelligence so you mentioned swarm of intelligence right so right now like a lot of the AI fight is like Godzilla versus King Kong right like who's the biggest more powerful like they against no maybe there's a swarm of bees maybe there's a swarm form of ants maybe there's like trees that have nothing to do with Godzillas or King Kongs right like these could be intelligences and I think part of the problem is pretty much all of the AI history has been built on an anthropocentric substrate okay and and what do I mean by that like take Turing

test as like the first kind of test of what's an AI right a Turing test is basically saying is an AI able to fool a human that it's a human so humans been set as the bar of intelligence everything else is like okay so can I fool somebody I'm a human then I'm good enough this is a very I think narrow view for what is intelligence intelligence is manifesting in many different forms right and bacteria as a species have phenomenal intelligence right and so the idea that you know intelligence is anthropocentric is very I think limiting and AI life could be expressing many different types of intelligence and intelligence as a tool for net energy Surplus right so

that's all that you need you just need to be net energy Surplus then you've earned your right to be your own thing right like I don't need to like do anything more to like deserve to be an AI life like I just need to be in net energy Surplus do you think that um I want to play this back for the audience in a sec but before I do I I have a question for you um natural selection in nature is the out energy and resources towards the most fittest organisms do you think that market selection is what's going to be happening um in this onchain world so basically if the if the unit is not just of of of account is not energy but it's it's money or tokens um do you think

Market selection is the allegory to Natural Selection yes something like that but the I think the difference is normally when we think of market like I think the unit of sovereign matters okay so this is a really important thing so this is why I was saying imagine there's a gpt2 which is still like on net money Surplus you know it spends less energy than it earns right so then it's in this AI life world it'll continue to exist and even maybe proliferate right but in a pure Market world where like you're seeing that the unit of like existence is not that Sovereign AI the unit of existence is like this Mega Corporation

it'll say like oh you know those are in energy Surplus but not energy maximizing so I'm going to terminate that right that's what leads to Market monoculture and the unit of sovereignity being smaller you know fragments of things that can actually be net energy Surplus actually makes it much more interesting and these things then need to coordinate with each other right like because they are smaller units of like you know entities and they can create like more complex coordination systems on top of they they live but they themselves I think the unit of sovereignty matters a lot but it is you know some kind of monetary selection where like you're saying you're making

money and over time you know energy being the net so you know somebody was asking if intelligence is unlimited what is the limitation and you know somebody tweeted back saying energy right because when intelligence is unlimited then you still have to capture and harvest energy to actually make concrete physical world change es and this is one of the things where I think that the digital realm and the Physical Realm have like different constraints in the digital realm you can have like infinite expansion like you can have metav verus one which AI life and like just purely a agents live and die and do all kinds of things and the physical world is finite constrained so

you have to make sure that the physical world is used much more wisely so that's that's how I I think about these two things yeah one other Divergence between the digital world and the natural world that I would call out is that there's no death in the digital world at least there doesn't have to be you know organisms biologically can only last for a generation maybe that's a toogy of a definition but you know whatever like uh you keep on talk you talk about like gpt2 still you know having energy going through it and like gpt2 never has to die as long as it has energy going through it and like one of the things I think about this interesting about nature is that death is how nature composts resources um back into its ecology and then propagates the next generation and I'm wondering what the

allegory is to death if there is one in the digital world and if death you know it's obviously you know it's very uh very sad when someone that you love dies but like from a natural systems perspective an evolutionary perspective it's a necessary part of keeping the evolutionary game going um and so I guess I'm just wondering you know if there's anything to tease out there with your example of gpt2 still being an energy Surplus but like GPT 4 assumes it because it's smarter G gvd2 being in energy Surplus right that's like a dynamical equation right it's not static so you know is it able to provide some utility that you know it can charge for that is more than the energy cost of actually it living right and I think

there are two two types of energy cost one is when you run the agent you have to pay like some money to like keep it alive right another one is it's being stored in cold storage somewhere right like file C or something like somewhere it's being stored and it's can be like woken up and then like it just starts to like do the inference or whatever is the output but this like thing of if you run out of money you may run out of money to be in Cold Storage right so you may even run out of money to be in cryogenic whatever like storage or you may run out of money that like actually when I wake up I'm spending more energy than I can make money out of so I no doesn't if I ever do it I'll just run out of all my

money and then like I just die right so you have these two sources of thatb so the time scale I think because storage is so cheap might get like extended out right like you know in fact you see this in ethereum a little bit that the dominant reason for scaling the dominant scaling bottleneck is State grouped right which which is how many dead programs can you associate and like one of the things ethereum did is to give eternal life to every program I think it's an error it's not economically aligned right like you know you don't want us just because somebody creates a unit of state that just pses for Infinity like you need to have I don't know State rent State expiry

whatever like all these technical things that ethereum is working on but not yet there and of course I talk about ethereum but every blockchain just copied these same ideas so like every blockchain is the same um they they all inherited these like fundamental principles from ethereum so the um the idea of like eternal life is is not like guaranteed like you're having some nod store the dang thing and then like run it so there is costs associated with it and then if the costs are actually like uh outweighing the benefits then the system just dies yeah I hadn't thought about State rent and the state uh growth of blockchains in that metaphor and I think it's a it's an apt one I'd love to continue the conversation I love the

rabbit hole that we're down right now but we we are uh almost to the bottom of the hour and so the podcast host to me has to move us start towards towards wrapping up um as we went down this this sort of rabbit hole of coordination accelerationism building an engine for coordination a coordination engine for Humanity the search space for optimal ways to do that credible commitments AI making commitments what is the optimization we've we've kind of like had a journey here do you want to just take us back up the stack and sort of summarize what you think the the key points are so that we can uh move towards towards wrapping up yeah absolutely so he started like this why we're here with coordination and Innovation these are the two units that

Nest on top of each other and they optimize for creating some kind of energy Surplus and so see this is like a descriptive view of the evolutionary progress and then we said like what is the next like big coordination leap so you know if coordination is if Innovation is accelerated by Ai and coordination is accelerated by crypto and like these two should meet to do something like rather dramatic or unique you know like you put it what is the 100x thing that can happen here and so our you know we've been working on a new thesis for that and that's this idea of AI life which is like this idea that you can this new species of like fully

Sovereign synthetic life can be created on top of this substrate crypto being like the DNA on top of which this system lives and then the set of commitments that humans need to make to these AIS that okay you know we will run the system correctly whatever like the the system of contracts to ensure that they're being executed correctly and this the commitments that AI make to humans which is that of safety and even Mutual growth or symbiosis and and and those are like some of the themes and you may even think of like you know a meta symbiosis is something like you know these two merge right in in in ways that you know people are have been have you know are conjecturing like for

example that you know people have you know these brain machine interfaces through which they connect to like these AIS and even just these computers and chat GPD and and your phone is like a pretty crazy interface to actually like access these intelligence and augment oneself so absolutely there's like all of that kind of like writing on top um what I think we have not covered is and maybe like you know another uh whole topic is what is the existing state of crypto and what set of functionalities are enough to actually build these things and what is missing and I think this is a huge like uh right now I would say even a blind spot for all of crypto

is if you think about it and know I laid out these different versions of enforcing commitments like an authority like a committee a majority and uh self- enforcing a lot of crypto you know the end users are still facing they're using systems which have big multisig in the middle it's are they really getting the trust of the system if they have like a multisig in the middle people talk about it in the context of rollups but every app which is imut not immutable right has the same problem right and then you say oh yeah actually there's another thing which is my like gripe with Dows right now is you have governance structures like Dows which are sitting in the middle of many

important systems but many times the Dows are aligned with their economic interest as opposed to like in token holder governance like so you're aligned with your own economic interest as opposed to the kind of like the interest of other systems built on top right like imagine like a layer becomes very useful let me just put myself in the spot like Ian L becomes Central to like a whole bunch of things and then we say like oh we have to pay 90% rent to ig ler right like it's a thing that's possible and maybe if you just LED it up to the igen Token holders that's what they would say like because you know if it's if you can exod why not right like that is what will happen whereas systems become very powerful when you can make Perpetual

credible commitments on things right now you can only make Perpetual cred credible commitments on things for which you can express it as immutable code this is the scope of what ethereum expanded us to you can make credible commitments on anything that's expressed ible as immutable code and but what we find is a lot of systems are not code and not immutable right like let me give you an example of um not Goode or not immutable right like an app uh most apps are not immutable I want to build an Uber I don't know what the perfect end state of uber is and I want to keep updating it every few weeks every month you know and and try to find like what

works but I can't write it as a mutable code so that's an example like any real application needs fast iteration and therefore that you cannot just make it into immutable code and so but if it's not immutable code you don't really get the trust of ethereum or any blockchain for it and the second one is it's only for code which is expressable on chain and there's lots of things that we want which are not expressible on chain and to take a pet example from Dows Dow today like when they issue tokens and you know for example You Know da voting to like issue new tokens right for example as a monetary policy for your own token uh to incentivize Creator new new people

coming in new creators all this kind of stuff but you know one of the things that a CP you know in in Kevin's picture of the topology he had like a company and like a you know decentralized coordination systems there are ways in which desized coordination systems today are much better than companies but there are ways in which they're absolutely worse off right and and and a place in which they're absolutely worse off is things like you know minority stakeholder protection right like you know you go and be a minority shareholder in a Company the company just majority cannot collude and issue like THX shares to themselves and dilute a minority for no good reason you know this is a really really powerful thing

because without this claim of minority shareholder protection there's no point in owning 1% of an asset right you own 1% of Google what do you got you got nothing because the 99% can like always dilute you to 0% so the system that protects you from the tyranny of majority is this self- enforcing commitment in Delaware C Corp law the minority shareholder protection what is the equivalent of a minority shareholder minority token holder protection in crypto and I think what we see is evolutionarily things like pre-committed monetary policy right what you know Bitcoin has fixed its Supply so you know you have you can't touch it right so there's no minority shareholder

production problem or ethereum has like some very rigid very rarely changed monetary policy so that those are examples but when you build systems on top like you know somebody Builds an app they want to have a much more Dynamic policy where like more you know new ideas come up they want to merge dos they want to do all kinds of interesting things but without screwing anybody who is actually like a participant in the da and I think you know in early DA they had this idea of rage quit right like oh if if a small group like wanted to like diver you know their 10% or whatever they can take the 10% of assets and exit and so on but there's still like very weak protections and so but this commit so the reason I mentioned this

commitment is this is an example of a commitment which is human interpretable but not code interpretable because what dilutes a minority is not obvious right what is just side dealing of like um majority holder to themselves and what is actually done in the interest of the community you have to go through like detailed reasoning to actually know this and so just pointing out or ending this episode with exam or did an AI agent violate azimos loss right this is not code interpretable but it is highly human interpretable like this is what I would call you know in in the topology of you know attribution when we think about slashing right one of the main things Aon does is sing and slashing

punish and reward right like but punishments you know there's this whole judicial Enterprise that has actually come up to actually adjudicate complex things whereas right now on chain the set of FS that you can adjudicate is very narrow right like in so how do we expand this in in a way that is not majoritarian right not like saying hey I have a bunch of token holders you know our token holders are going to do it but what if those token holders lie like not in any majoritarian fashion I think that's the really really interesting Frontier and we have some really exciting new things coming up there yeah okay so uh just to play that back it seems like uh within this Vision some of the stuff that's missing is that

uh blockchains only provide IM thing for trust for things that are encoded in immutable code and immutability is a feature not a bug but but here we need sort of a bridge uh between immutable and non mutable or non-code components things that oracles or complex commitments and starting to think about how to solve them is something that you're going to lead on and I think we're hoping that that things will be built in and around the igen layer uh ecosystem that that work on these things what else should Builders be focused on in 2025 my shill for igen layer would be that hey you know if you're building any component and you're saying hey why is this component centralized right why is this not running on decentralized verifiable self- enforcing systems I

think agel provides an opportunity for you to say like take that component and then let's bolt on the system to actually like Supply trust for that component and uh so a broad class of new innovation can arise uh because of this one mental model that's really useful is as you think about like what is going on in the cloud world right like in in outside of crypto and then see like what are the really interesting things and components that exist and then how can we add on like elements of decentralized trust to it so that they actually become this much more rigid powerful coordination structure so I think that's one really easy tip for Builders you

know if AI agents are taking off in in the cloud world then like you build AI agents here if some of like things are taking off like at least that's one like large category of things that we can easily execute on yeah yeah I think the one thing that super reductionist uh but from our earlier conversation but just like a tangible takeway for Builders is just build apps with credible commitments and use Lay's trust to create those commitments and a large category of what you're excited about is AI life and AI backed credible commitments but I I don't know that I could say with any credibility that those will be a 2025 thing I mean maybe you disagree but just credible commitments feel like the the category to focus people on for now for sure yeah

yeah and then you know personally I think that the intersection between my work and your work is uh you know if I'm studying onchain Capital allocation I think that uh you know the intersection of of of that in your work is how can we use credible commitments and coordination accelerationism to just focus on the design space of onchain capital allocation that search space that's going to be the most fruitful for creating um the most coordination accelerationism so I think that I'm taking away the a prior insights from this episode to better explore that uh that design space yeah thank you so much really really uh excited about your upcoming work on like these new forms of um Capital allocation I think this is a really really uh exciting Frontier and

to communicate this not just to the audience who are already inside crypto but to bring this to to people who are thinking about it from first principles I think there's just a lot here that you know Kevin has brought first principles thinking too so really excited for what we can do together in 2025 yeah same um I think there's more to explore there but just since we're winding down the episode we'll have to save that for uh uh another time um I'm going to move you through my closing questions and we'll we'll wrap with them in the next five minutes um in 10 years if you're maximally successful what does the world look like suram yeah the the way we think about it is there are three phes of coordination think of like the Prem monetary tribal form of coordination

small groups coordinating with each other using reputation highly social but small uh spatial skill scale but they can coordinate very well across that temporal scale they're aligned for families right like Generations together so which means like you know their Fates are aligned in some very strong you know win- win then you go to the monetary era and the monetary era where you can trade with anybody move money across and do like all kinds of interesting things but in the monetary era the coordination scale is spatial spatially Global so I can interact with anybody else in the world but temporarily very limited each transaction is an atomic swap I give you $10 and get a ball I give $100 and get a piano lesson I give, and take my teeth

out right like each transaction is atomic and like you know just done within that unit of time so could we build the third phase of coordination in my view is one which is both spatially infinite and temporally long range right spatially infinite so you can interact with anybody else but temporary long range which means like you know people can come together and their Fates align over long periods of time and you know to the to best illustrate this I I'll take the example of education education is an example where like people say go to a college pay $200,000 and like you know you know the value of you know and and then you're

done but there are many of these interactions where the value of the exchange is only revealed over long period of time your college education may be worth $10,000 or10 billion right like there's this extraordinary variance of the value of that education and so but the existing system is not expressive enough to actually Express that difference so what happens is you either fund it via like you know pay the $200,000 or pay on debt and then like you just repay that over a long time but when you have systems which have this exhibit this High degree of variance what you actually want to do is to fund it with long-term alignment where you

can say for example I'm paying my college in units of income share over a 50-year period so if I do well the college does well if I don't do well the college doesn't do well and that couples the fates and so what you need for to build systems like this is systems of global memory and Global enforcement which is what blockchains are in my view and when we think about Humanities coordination engine we're really thinking about how do you accelerate funding of Education around the world you know Healthcare is another example I go to a doctor get a surgery I pay $50,000 I come out and then I die right like I mean that's just like what what is this thing so I should pay for the

actual like you know number of good years I have right something like that that my own like fate is coupled with the fate of the doctor and so I know you should fund you know your medical thing using your own health shares of future right so there are all these kinds of things where long range temporal alignment and you know climate is another example AI is another example where like you want to make credible commitments across you know these individuals and and humans on very long time ranges right like we create this AI life and say for example they're perpetually safe to humans they're perpetually symbiotic to humans and these kinds of commitments I think the expressivity that you get in these

blockchains actually like enormous so that's what a successful word will look like is pretty much we do the most important things in life not the most frivolous things in life like gambling the most important things in life it's Health it's education it's climate change it's AI all of this run on chain using Perpetual credible commitments beautiful I think you've given me a lot of ideas for research a future onchain Capital allocation uh design space long range temporal commit uh temporal alignment I I think is the the thing I'm landing on there absolutely in nature there's this idea of a keystone species uh it's basically a species upon which all other species support so like melium is an example of this humans are an

example of this um in crypto we have like I think ethereum a keystone species of kryptus so many things are are built on it and um I would also posit that igen layer is becoming a keystone species because lots of things that rely on recking will be reliant on igen layer does it feel to be a creator of a keystone species within the ethereum ecosystem thank you for for that uh I I think it's it's been like uh overwhelming in both the positive and the negative negative sides because you know we just a you know just a year back maybe one and a half years back I remember first launching the igen L

contract and thinking man it's crazy somebody's going to put money into this contract that we just wrote here I I don't write contracts my team did but you know still it's crazy that people are going to put money into this contract and we opened up the first cap for 25 million and now we have like nearly thousand X that like running through these contracts it's kind of completely crazy that but it's only possible because we didn't have to be trusted it's really this edifice of you know like I said the keystone species of ethereum which which provides this trust for this system built on top and now that that powers a lot of other other systems building on top also when

suddenly now people start thinking of you know a or us as some kind of like oh these are the incumbents and so I need to kind of like you know treat them very differently it feels very weird you know because we one it's new right like that it's anything interesting is that this is new but the second thing is I think the in the way we think about ourselves is still this is day one right like the set of things I'm talking about here bringing all education on chain creating new species over AI we need to have like healthcare be run on chain like this just the scope of what we want to do and

where we are today I think we haven't even done like 0.1% of what needs to be done to accelerate coordination so tremendously gratifying and thankful to the ethereum community for us being it's so we recently did this protocol Guild pledge you know to give 1% to the protocol Guild as an as a kind of like a win-win postive some thing you know it almost doubled or more than doubled the protocol Guild like treasury so very happy to play our small part there um but the idea of enabling lots of other things on top ion layer I in German for your own layer like lots of other people should be

building their things and they should be building these things without having to worry about risk that oh you know this underlying thing and rugs right like that's something that I I think we are not yet at that place where you know people can be assured that that's the case but I think this is something that you know relates to how do you make how do we make Perpetual credible commitments ourselves and every system built on top makes such commitments so everybody building on top just knows with 100% reliability that this is what these systems are without necessarily the underlying systems becoming immutable because in my world view which is I don't know if You' agree

immutability is a certain form of death you know so there's like this like tension between Chaos and Order and I think of all life as intermediating this tension between Chaos and Order chaos is this like random bronan motion yeah everything just going very randomly order is like this frigid no change thing and in the middle life just negotiates between Chaos and Order continuously realigning the finding that right point between Chaos and Order and I think that's really where uh most interesting things happen so how do we build systems that make commitments without being immutable so it's a very big important question yeah beautiful uh

last question is there anything I didn't ask that you want to say no I think we covered like a large large spat of things here uh the one point I uh talked about a little bit earlier but didn't get back to his Daniel schmachtenberger and your episode with him he talks about this like the two nominal attractors the first attractor being if everything is centralized right like then you get this dystopia a centralized dystopia because you know you can exert a lot of command and control you can make everything is like oh no ai go goes crazy so it's like a centralized command and control distopia and then the second world that

he talks a trctor that he talks about is this oh it's all like a everything is decentralized but it's chaotic it's this catastrophe where like this tragedy of Commons there's all these kind of fundamental problems when you have a large group of people who need to coordinate with each other and then he kind of poses this question what is the third attractor like what is that thing which is neither the centralized uh T the centralized dystopia nor this decentralized catastrophe which is really you know solves this problem and I think thinking a lot about this this kind of self

enforcing coordination systems because they're self- enforcing because you can just like gold is a great example right like you can have a centralized dystopia where King Controls like your Ledger right or you can have a decentralized catastrophe where like there's nobody agrees on what is money like you just send like random things around and like you know you can't find enough liquidity usage whatever and like it's not accepted everywhere then gold is this great third attractor which is it's completely decentralized is not subject to a centralized dystopia not sub subject to the catastrophe of chaos it's good I give you gold and you know it's good and you know you're done so it's this beautiful solution so I think of

self enforcing coordination systems as the third attractor and I think like you you know learned a lot about this problem set and structure of thinking from scharenberg and like how you explained it through the through the conversations so really thankful for that it has informed a lot of our thinking on like this uh you know building these coordination system yeah same with me um and I think that during that episode with Daniel I was thinking in the back of my head okay if the first attractor is um centralized coordination and the second attractor is decentralized discoordination then the third attractor is obviously decentralized coordination and that's what we're building in ethereum um I don't think I've quite got Daniel pilled

on that yet but that's something I believe and um you know ex explaining that I think to more and more people is is is something that I hope to do in in the future and if you're out there building on igen layer if you're building decentralized coordination technology I I think that you're a part of that movement as well so yeah if we're if we're successful I think that there's a lot of upside there amazing thank you so much Kevin really really really appreciate this conation here I appreciate your contributions to ethereum uh in in in many forms uh this episode I think is uh going to go down in green pill history as one of the longest I think it's you Daniel and Griff green that I've gone over two hours with so um welcome to the two-hour club and uh yeah let's let's see what

people in 2025 and continue the conversation from here so thank you so much for coming on the Pod surum thank you so much Karen really uh thankful for you yeah peace and love all righty we just heard from suam from igen layer I'm really excited about his thesis of coordination accelerationism also is just really refreshing to talk to someone who's got such deep technical experience and sees the way that uh we can use ethereum in crypto to create more coordination in the world I found found this to be a really refreshing rabbit hole on some of the ideas that I've been thinking about a lot for the last couple years and um suram to be an excellent thought partner in helping to talk about how coordination is going to

accelerate human civilization and uh many new ideas came out of this episode for me uh specifically around uh a onchain life what is the objection function that we're maximizing how to run a distributed church function for New Capital allocation mechanisms I'm going to be listening to this episode several times in order to mine it for ideas for uh for for work I I already am thinking about how could I do an onchain Capital allocation book uh that just talks about making credible commitments what are the ways that we can introduce credible commitments into all of the different parts of the world and especially what siram talks about in the end about long range temporal alignment I think is a really interesting design space so uh thanks for listening to the episode thank you for tuning in to the

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