S7 Ep. 11 - From DAOs To Denver W/ Joshua

Transcript

ethereum is like the Las Vegas Strip and then like salana is a casino that we've all walked [Music] into your debt was wiped by an nft project on the ethereum main net uh and that was in in the midst of like the hype and everybody hating on apes and we hadn't switched to proof of stake yet so all of the the entire laugh was mad about the environmental impacts they got so much hate from taking money from us there was just the thing he was calling the biggest lar and I was like is Kevin calling us the biggest lar like are we like laring public goods and then he actually had a thing that was real called mhm I heard that I wish I didn't hear that but I just heard that so you

know you do some transactions there and like oh it didn't go through and uh and okay you're kind of fun with it it's crazy like how we treat money in a sense in VB 3 like really like an experiment sometimes like is it the price for experimenting um people spending usdc on porn or whatever else it is and they can censor transactions like okay fine like I'm never going to use the China stable coin but there is a market for people who will use that nowhere else people are like okay that that Grant's gone that was a good learning experience they're like [ __ ] no call a customer service I want my $1,000 back like 99%

of people in the world are like who can I call to fix this I think it's more safe to leave money in a than I do in a bank so I think leaving money in a bank is like get Ling at the casino welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we're building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish a season of 5 to 10 episodes every couple months this season is about how to Dow I'm releasing a book with my co-author H Carr who is also a dow native person and we are really excited about helping people find prosperity and to help them

thrive in the frontier for time in Memorial people have gone to the frontier in order to find new prosperity new opportunities and our generation's Frontier is the internet we want to teach people about the future of Dallas the future of Internet coordination and this season of how toow is all about how do we do that how do we how do we find more prosperity in the internet Frontier and this guest season of 5 to 10 episodes is going to be about how to Dow um the next voices that you'll hear will be myself or my guest co-host punar talking about how to Da hope you enjoy this season see you peace welcome to the how toow podcast brought to you by Green pill. Network join us today for

discussion with uh web3 Pioneer uh Joshua Lapidus also known as ZX Joshua Joshua currently serves a senior Diplomat at Asos Finance partner at ai6 Z Dow and executive Steward at oppes and E uh Denver his work which includes driving Dow Innovation with platforms like opis and organizing major web events like e Denver embodies the spirit of decentralization and collaboration during our conversation we will explore Joshua's Journey uh delve into his groundbreaking initiatives and discover how projects like ai6 Z Dow uh and Asos and events like e Denver are shaping the

future of web 3 welcome Joshua on the podcast thanks for having me yeah well we love D so uh we also you know did a book about Dow uh with Kevin o we very familiar with him I see the green pill uh behind you so that's a poster from E 2022 nice nice well that's a some time ago so like maybe let's start with uh I know we want to get into AI but maybe let's start with like the impact initiatives first like you know green pill it's uh one of them but I know the

Asos Finance it's also um I consider impact initiative because you are developing a stable coin which is fully bagged by collateral or how I would call it so how did it work and you know how how that can help maybe or create sure you you got that exactly um and in the story of Asos there is the the first impact or public goods initiative that that I worked on and it was with uh two of my other co-founders and I don't know if you're familiar with rainbow rolles but we did this nft project uh back in September 2021 because there was so much [ __ ] in the nft space and we saw like every day there was a new nft that was

release that was just like an image that had a bunch of different color skins on it people were making millions of dollars for nothing and we're like we could this is all [ __ ] we should wipe away the [ __ ] oh toilet paper so we made these toilet paper nfts and we said we're going to do the same thing except for we very publicly stated that we're going to donate 80% of all the proceeds to public hoods uh and that made us a getcoin funders league for two or three Cycles we did uh I think 20 to 40 eth into uh gith so we 20 we gave directly to gith and then we onboarded rip medical debt which is uh they' they've changed their their name they're an organization that

we' found out about through Last Week Tonight with John Oliver um where they basically they're a debt collector and they buy met medical debt all the way down the stream for like uh one cent on the dollar they buy it and then they wave it and then they send the the the debt or letter saying we've wiped your medical debt we purchased it and we are not going to claim it so you're free you're you're done with your debt um and in the 5,000 families that we were able to impact and do that for based off the $7.35 Million worth of medical debt that our donation was able to to wipe away it said your debt was wiped by an nft project on the ethereum main net uh and

that was in in the midst of like the hype and everybody hating on apes and we hadn't switched to proof of stake yet so all of the the entire laugh was mad about the environmental impacts of proof of waste uh the P proof of work and they got so much hate from taking money from us because they were saving a Life by lighting the rainforest on fire and we got written up in like Vice and a bunch of things because because it was it was just a very an interesting uh Dynamic but that was uh that was my first experience into public goods and actually we we launched the same day that um that Kevin auke was announcing

uh the biggest lar I um like it was a project back then or uh comic can you can you elaborate or that one there was just the thing he was calling the biggest LARP and I was like is Kevin calling us the biggest LARP like are we like laring public goods and then he actually had a thing that was real called uh the the biggest LK and I was like oh talking about us but that was uh whenever whenever uh I get Kevin to sign a book I he always like mentions he's like thank you for rainbow rolls in the in the book so I'm waiting on my how to Da copy but uh so nice yeah so that was our first experience with public goods the the team really really uh we we enjoyed that it was a success it

wasn't like boor AP level success but uh we did some good fast forward a few years last year uh November 2023 um our fourth co-founder uh had convinced us to participate in the refi hack which was the the hackathon for cop 28 in Dubai he's like you guys should submit um I've got this client who not a client I've got this guy who uh could really use something like this uh and so we we put a hackathon team together and we won the refi back then after e and February I I join the team full time wow uh and this is uh just like to remind to listeners this is the Asos Finance basically so that that happened on the

hecaton and now uh it's uh basically full fed project uh I believe you just launched deset uh recently we did yeah so season zero I don't know when this is going to come out but season zero of our test net which is like kind of a semiprivate beta um is ending on I think December 25th uh and then season one's going to run probably until our public launch at Ember so to answer the the actual first question which is like what is azos and how are we doing impact one of the biggest problems the impact side of our industry is The Branding that they get associated with is just charity right I think we we have the same

problem with the with the words public goods because when people hear it like there are of us were like yeah that's awesome I'll put some money into that because I wanted to succeed not because I think I'm going to make money from it um but in crypto a lot of the liquidity especially from degens comes from spoken or unspoken speculative nature that they're going to make money from this it's like okay yeah I'll put $100 into something with a $10,000 market cap because at some point that could be $1,000 I think every single I was to say a person in the back of their mind has this thought of like okay if I buy a little bit of a thing it could be worth more someday because we've seen that success story so many time just the

nature of our industry when something gets labeled public goods or charitable or environmental ESG that switch immediately turns off and DJ think I'm not GNA make money from this and so we work backward from this like this plus uh Kevin Milwaukee back in 2022 there's a common theme here I'm I'm an aukee in uh this is like my he's like my lead philosopher back in 2022 Uh Kevin tweeted that like eth is a programmable money and we have the ability to program our values into this money so you take these these two things you combine them as Asos which is um similar to maker it's a CDP platform

where you can deposit your own assets and you can mint a stable coin against it with something like maker you're minting die backed by e or wbtc or usdc collateral with Asos we targeting impact tokens so whether it's uh carbon credits or green bonds uh there's renewable energy certificates Rex um and then there's ppas purchased power agreements which are like uh solar energy and then we can also Target the the Dow tokens of teams that are doing these sort of initiatives so if there's is like like cadow and they're focused on doing all of these um great things to like

perpetuate renewable energy and Rural places and so we can take their token and also uh like GTC or give like things that are under the impact umbrella um all of these things could be potential collateral oh nice uh so yeah so to recap basically you are the similar stable coin to uh die uh which is now called usdc as they as maker that would branded to Sky but also similar basically to usdc people might know uh even better but what you are having as a Coller on the back end it's not you know in terms of like it's not like us treasuries or uh eat or Bitcoin but it's

more like of the impact project so like it's a real life carbon credit we just toonize them and put them on chain but like so there's there's there's a bunch of different kind of stable coins there and you touched on it so die Mak orow this is a decentralized stable coin but they started backing it with like us treasuries and and they also backed it with usdc which is a very centralized stable coin and I'm not there's no judging there's a there's Merit to all the different use cases for these things um and we can get into the nuances that later I I well so maybe I will on this so like I had the discussion yesterday about usdc like you know we are building this like very

decentralized system very Sovereign system hold ethereum and now we like the most used stable coin it's fully centralized so basically you know can be by out by one person there we're those are two different conversations but we can touch on both of them here so yes there is meris because it's not meant for us like we shouldn't be using usdc we're using it because that's the like that's the one that is offramp through coinbase most easily with zero fees that's the one that vendors are starting to accept it's the it's the closest to US dollar so so we're using it right now as the stop Gap like we the whole ecosystem because we are rallying behind a thing that needs to succeed so we can

prove out a use case so we could do all the other things so I I I don't think that we're going to permanently be using usdc I mean there's great like one of our partners glow which is like very similar to usdc except for they give away the interest rather than making billions of dollars like Circle does and like I love the team so shout out to Glow dollar they're they're great the reason that they have significant Merit is because it's not for us like Grandma Grandpa are never going to use decentralized stable coins they're they're not they barely want to use crypto as it is um and like shout out to teams like unicorn wallet that are trying to making things like Grandma proof where you can't like click a

button and be completely rugged um I think the Merit of centralized stable coins like this is going to be the grandma can call tech support and be like I sent $100 to the wrong place and they're going to be able to roll that back and I think there will be like the FED chains and the bank chains as long as all of it settles to ethereum like off in these little corners of the internet where grandma's going to be able to use crypto like great that's good for Grandma um same thing with like China where we don't approve of um people spending usdc on porn or whatever else it is and they can censor transactions like okay fine like I'm never going to use the China stable coin

but there is a market for people who will use that and if all of that value settles to ethereum I think we've won I'm never going to use that but good for them um and then we get into the circle shouldn't be able to determine the future of ethereum and that's why a broad spectrum of stable coins is important and right now we've got like three or four that have ubiquity throughout Defi and this is like King made by uh it's not their fault but like this is where the Deep liquidity is in like curve uh and a and and un unisoft more decentralized because anyone can create a pool but because of these Gates that do exist and the gates exist for quality purposes so we need to grow other stable coins to the point where

accepted and then integrate them into defi to mitigate the risk of usdc and usdt which like I mean I've been around since 2017 and there's been usdt fud the entire time eventually it could collapse eventually it could not but like that's still a sort of J C that we're just waiting on yeah but but I like how you describe it there is this Outer Circle which is basically the convenience Circle kind of like we want to onboard more people into crypto we want to enable basically everyone be able to interact in like let's say safe uh way with crypto and we have this Outer Circle which is maybe a little bit more centralized but that's for the convenience uh and ease of use but then

we have the inner circles which you know there can be more of uh versions of it but eventually we get into the like basically completely decentralized part like on ethereum and stable coins really running on on them uh yeah I I I like that and you know with uh and the little plug here like with our book uh the how to Da like we want to on board the masses we don't like the take techy guys and the crypto anarchists are already here but now we need like the normal people joining us and for them like we need to make it easier yeah well and and EAS and like the normal people they expect UI

that's as Sleek as venmo and PayPal and Facebook is what they're using right these are olds who need who need the guardrails and our industry is famously like do your own research use at your own risk and it's like Grandma's not going to use at her own risk she wants guard rails she wants $250,000 FDIC insured and she wants to not be able to screw up very easily and for us it's like oh I signed a bad transaction I lost $1,000 like oh well that that doesn't fly anywhere else nowhere else people are like like okay that that Grant's gone that was a good learning experience they like [ __ ] no call a customer service I want my ,000 back like 99% of people in the world are like who can I call to fix this and we're

just like let me try to send it again it's it's a very different we're different bre of people yeah and it's it's funny like you know sometimes like yeah literally like you're are like finding money in wallet you didn't know you had and you know you do some transactions there and like oh they didn't go through and uh and okay you're kind of fine with it it's crazy like how we treat money in a sense on INB 3 like really like an experiment sometimes like is it the price for experimenting and like there is the upside you know I feel like people are still here because we can get the Thousand back through different means you know the link some

cool stuff just for using just for using an application they can reward you is it's something in any other industry except for maybe like restaurants that'll be like here's a 20% coupon on your next Pizza it's like that's there's that or I could try to use this new defi protocol and if I leave $500 worth of LP in it like I could get an airdrop worth $12,000 that's like of of course I'm going to patronize this new thing yeah that's it's a fantastic world we live in not at all the real world yeah like we are creating something new like what's your take overall maybe on the like uh the air drops basically this rewards for using a protocol I think we we live in one giant Casino not like ethereum

specifically I think like ethereum is like the Las Vegas Strip and then like salana is a casino that we've all walked into and when we think about money on chain it's at least I do um it's all in-game currency until you leave the casino and so you're basically you're taking one victory one airdrop and you're walking to another table and you're playing again and it's just like not that defi is one giant casino because there's a lot of really solid infrastructure that are being built but we're experimenting with different tables in the casino and a lot of those tables get ripped out if they don't test well uh new games are being created constantly and like it took years to

figure out what the craps table was going to be you know I that wasn't the first casino game ever invented but it's one of the most popular are ones that stuck around I also don't think that using defi should necessarily be equated to gambling uh because it's more secure than that but if we're considering all of finances hold to be some sort of gambling I know that's an interesting line I don't want to go down I think it's more safe to leave money in a than I do in a bank so I think leaving money in a bank is like get money at the casino inside of yeah I broader analogy I think then it's a broad analogy like the whole financial system is kind of a game you know it's uh you are like speculating on on different moves you

know you can short things if you feel like like this company would go on that soon or or the other way around and you know like the stock market itself like now we have um seven eight uh companies which are like above trillion dollars or something and like the you know like it's like multiples of future revenues like big multiples of future revenues they won't ever get the money back basically through like profit yeah I remember said my my family who I've been trying to tell to buy bigcoin and eth since 2017 um like I don't invest in things I don't understand and it's like you invest in the stock market you definitely don't understand the stock

market like you're betting on the sentiments of other people it's like no it's like there's price to earnings and there's real it's like no it's not it's fake it's all it's all based off of do you think Warren Buffett's going to buy a bunch of these because that's what's going to make the price go up is he going to sell it and then the price is going to go down like if there's if there's a dividend like yeah you're playing a game with am I going to make enough money back in this dividend while this company still around but for non-dividend paying stocks it's on the sentiment of the market and the sentiment Market is entirely fabricated will there be war with Iran tomorrow is China gonna have a trade War like is Russia decided it wants to be the USSR today yeah so there is a bright future

for theana uh casinos and they might get some you know other use cases is there as well uh eventually you know we went through the period of mem coins as well and there are still mem coins on ethereum to be fair um so you know there is there are some pars but I agree there's probably a lot of Builders and a lot of use cases uh that are happening here so thank you for for the description and the distinguishment uh between those two ecosystems would you be able to like maybe describe like what's the difference between like ethereum and salana cult technologically um I with to be to be mostly Fair because I'm not technically competent in salana um we've been trying the last few

months we we deployed a um so this is part of the AI 16z thing so I don't like actively contribute when I say I'm a partner um I'm a token holder uh and so anybody who holds 100,000 ai6 Z is a partner and is able to help kind of push the direction of the company the entire da was built around the Eliza framework which is right now like the top GitHub repo there's so many people who are contributing to it and this is kind of becoming the central the the shelling point of like decentralized AI uh and my interest in it is the Dow side of things where we're trying to make sure that so like and I I I like talking about the uh

Geeks mops and sociopaths it's a chapter from the book meaning meaningness um but I sh I share it all the time on Twitter and we should include it here because you all should read this in Geeks moms and sociopaths there's a concept of the Geeks that's us we're the ones who are like building stuff they're those creators and for the most part we're Fanatics anyone listening to this is likely a fanatic um but then there's mops and the mops are like the general public uh these the people that like get swept back and forth they're the people who like who listen to the ventless podcast but never do stuff on shame like maybe they'll buy they like hear about eth on bankless and then they go buy it on Robin Hood like that's a mop like

they're not they're not coming on chain they're not using the tools right um and then there are some people who who are mops who are like like oh pumped out fun and then they go to the website and then they can buy the credit card and through Phantom and then they're just buying you know shitcoins at the casino like that's these are mops right um I like mops got swept up by icos and then D5 summer Forks so there were like we we had like like Wi-Fi but then there was Wi-Fi with a double eye and there were people who were participating in these Forks um and then the mops kept swept to like nfts and then for the most part the last year or two they left a lot of the mops went to Ai and so they're like all these

companies that are raising billions billions of dollars worth of value these valuations that are crazy that are just like chat gbt Forks they're just building building on building on on open source software um and all the mops like went there now the mops are coming back because agentic AI coupled with tokens have like brought all of these mops together and mops get swept by sociopaths sociopaths in this context are just the people who are trying their best to monetize the mops but they don't really care about the culture they're just like let's see how much money we can make from this and this is all of this is culminated here in agentic Ai and kind of a a back and forth of hype between uh Bas and the like the virtuals

and the conquer and then uh Solana which is the like the AI 16z and all these different pump fun um like agent AI that are they're popping up and right in the middle of it the only salvation that we have as human Humanity against the robots is Dow tooling Dow tooling is literally what's keeping us from like Skynet and uh overlords that are going to just destroy Humanity um and that is uh we we built this project uh most of the credit goes to Kyle Starr and and and Robin lemman uh gods. fun which is this idea we were going to build these these Gods um that not like the real like currently

worshiped Gods because could you imagine if this God decided like if if somebody asked it can you show me a picture of Muhammad and it obliged I I would have to move move and can still my address um so like we're using more like the Greek Greek and Roman gods um my my pseudonym in the community is Odin which eventually will be one of the Gods but the idea is that these Gods will have autonomy they have private keys and they are able to they have things that they want to do it's not just trading a lot of the AI bots of right now are like they're trading and they're replicating influencers which if you think about like what influ influencers are is they have these groups these call groups

where they're able to be like oh I want like this this this ticker is going to be a great ticker and because they've got thousands of followers all they they all buy it and then that influencer goes to go I made a great call guys look it went up it's like yeah because you told people to buy it and it went up and that's how the entirety of the market uh basically exists right now for the non like primary things this is like the meme coins so we're building in this space for these Gods to have have ideas like um I want to infinitely fund public goods or um the like the goddess of renewable energy uh and the example that we use is like we can give one of these agentic AIS the power and the thought to

my job is to buy as many solar Farms that make money as possible and so how does an AI on who who has private keys by land in the real world world that that could have solar panels on it and the answer is it needs humans to assist and do this work and the way to get money out is through passing Dow proposals and so you need humans that are verifying that work is being done to be able to process money out and so instead of AI serving humans this is human serving AI as a as a stop Gap to make sure that things are the money is actually being spent correctly and so theoretically once this AI bot is

launched this God it could be like 6 months to a year before it owns literally every solar farm in the world like if if there's a if there's a speculative flywheel and she just keeps getting enough money to continue doing it like what's the stoper the humans humans is the only thing that could stop her but that would be really cool if we deployed a god agent who just then spent millions of dollars billions of dollars putting solar panels everywhere wow uh it's so couple I I feel like there is couple things to unpack here so just like uh you know for some of our listeners there might be like little new to crypto Joshua mentioned you mention like at the beginning like you know PS of fun which is like a kind of Dow

platform uh on salana so there is like a lot of meme coins or Dows uh launch uh through that mention also Phantom which is I think the most popular uh salana based wallet but now yeah it actually has it hasum too it only it only has like five rpcs so you could use like ethereum base arbitrum maybe polygon but it's it's very narrow in scope and you can't just add in rpcs or if you can I haven't figured out how yet yeah so yeah it's like mostly Solana but like you can use dead bullet on etherum um as well and there's the project um so AI uh 16z Dow uh which is uh basically like creating uh AI agents uh if I'm mistaken

but can you maybe elaborate a little bit more on like what the AI 16z Dow project actually doing and how it's connected to the Gods uh you were describing yeah so um Gods is a project that is a partner of AI 16c but it's not like the main thing so they've got Eliza and then they've got um AI dgen Spartan which are two of their like Gods uh not Gods their main uh agentic yeah we're the base of the capabilities of what this hent AI is able to do and so you've got thousands of developers that are trying to add usability so our devs from the god. fund team we're

shipping this with penguin uh who works with me at Asos and was also on the rainbow rolls team or we're shipping evm compatibilities for Eliza the h& AI could work on uh evm right now I think it's just doing salana nice nice uh so basically like yeah I uh ai6 Z like uh it's a kind of the framework so you can check the GitHub the Alisa GitHub or like uh learn more if you are Technical and you can build on on top of it they they run very regular seminars on how to get up to speed on on doing this they're in the Discord um sometimes they're on Twitter spaces uh Shaw Jin do a great job of onboarding developers and um it's

a fantastic project where it's it's literally one of the Dows where you just show up and start contributing I got the partner role just from buying 100,000 of them my contribution to a lot of dows is is show up and help with financial support because I can't be in a million places at once there's too many cool things out there that I want to support and it's it's nice that there are you know there are opportunities uh for everyone to basically join some Dow and you can earn through you know contributing to it and helping to that so and you know the ecosystem is growing maybe like uh touching up on that like what do you think like are the type of people who should be interested into in this like AI 16z or like the type of people who can contribute and maybe even

like uh earn uh through that contribution the type of people that can show up and contribute or of any stripe really I'm not a developer I haven't been a developer in about a decade I went through a coding boot camp and did an internship back in like 20156 and discovered I didn't like coding um but that kind of literacy and being able to understand like how it works super helpful to like being able to read smart contracts and understand what's going on here a little bit but you you don't need to be super technical to be able to roll up your sleeves and and start helping uh especially based off of The Narrative that my thesis which is that Dow tooling is the only

thing standing away in the way of AI just taking over everything um so if you're like an operator or like you ear governance and uh prompt engineering is another one not engineering engineering but is a form of um like getting good at like tailoring and figuring out like what's going to spit out the best images or videos editing there's also a every single one of these do projects needs like a landing page and so if you're like a web developer or you can spin up Squarespace stuff like that literally anything that you can think of um this is like the Dow that could take over all Dows eventually I mean this is the it it

similar it's like ai6 Z Dow is to the Dow world the same way like a16z is to the like web 3 world like it could have its fingers in everything if it wanted oh that's uh that's impressive you know anyone can join basically whatever skill you have uh you have design skill technical skills or just operations uh you can join there just I mentioned like the Dow tooling it's the only thing what is like protecting us from a Skynet type of thing and you also mentioned that uh now basically humans will serve AI so like those two things are like kind of very interesting like uh comments on it

like how do you think about dink like how do you think like maybe even ding needs to evolve from what we have right now uh if you consider AI being kind of taking over some of the things so we've got like right now money is in a like if you were talking about an EA you've got money that's in a hot wallet and you give the private keys to the AI and there's actually there are a few games right now I don't know games on on Twitter where someone's like I put an eth in this ai's wallet um the first person to convince it to to send the eth to you like wins the eth and I've programmed the AI very specifically to not want to give away the e

and so when you think about like that the framework of this game but on a much larger scale we're going to be we're going be giving a lot of money to basically AIS with private Keys now you you can't build a dow around an eoa right because one person has the key so you've got Dows you've got mik Dows and Aragon Dows and you've got a nois safe with a hats protocol and you've got all these different Frameworks that we could start to build out around trying to make something more of a dow the rules of of any Dow are how do we spend the money right and so we need to start building backward from how do we get because people are building ways for AI to interact in the

real world and right now they can't they can't open bank accounts because they know they could have personhood if if they meet certain qualifications and uh we incorporate an LLC around them and the US government has determined that llc's can be people and so like now you've got AIS that have like legal personhood and then could they open bank accounts theoretically or is or they just operate on chain where you don't need a bank account you literally have all this money in your fingertips so Dow tooling comes into play where if there is a a situation in which bad people are going to try to steal stuff they're going to try to steal stuff like if we create honeypots with hundreds of millions of dollars billions of dollars you think Lazarus is going to be like hey it might be easier to try to convince this AI to give me the money

than it is to hack these defi protocols that been audited multiple times um or socially engineer some people probably easier to try socially engineering AI than it is to get into theat maybe maybe not who knows but if we start to build proper Dell tooling around like a system of checks and balances around the AI just being able to spend money without humans to assist it um so setting up like let's say at the very very Basics a multisig in which the AI is going to execute a transaction but it needs three other human signers to to verify the work and say yes this the work was done so whether it's like the AI wants a logo they says oh I want a new logo that

doesn't make me look stupid so you you got three humans who have to verify the that the logo is made and that it is not stupid obviously these things are subjective and we're never going to get away from Total subjectivity but a lot of the AI can't even view images so how is it going to know if a logo was made and if the logo looks stupid yeah we need humans who have a financial stake in the success of a dow or in the success of following one of these AI Gods to back him her them up and the more robust tooling we build for humans to to make sure that money is spent efficiently it's the same thing with with Dows that are not involved with AI we still are coming up with ways to efficiently spend money that don't get bogged down and so this is just another

another X Factor in that in that same equation nice so if I understand it correctly like uh basically the the AI can do some of the work but we have the people who will be still kind of uh there to provide the check and balances uh in a sense so if there is the the person who convince AI to send billion of dollars worth of eat to their wallet there will still be the people saying like well this transaction it sounds fishy so we won't approve it uh kind of type of deal and then like uh similar to how we use AI probably like on daily basis with like jgpt is like we give it some PR we see the results we don't like

it we reprompt it uh or like you know put some suggestions there like uh and it will get better over time as it saves kind of the information what was the preference of a of a dow this makes total sense do you think like the old Dows like which already exist would be like implementing like this type of AI BS uh very soon or is it more like a play for like newly created Dows and you really need to like start from the scratch in a sense I think well I think you get both but it's a very interesting concept of dows right now if it added a dow member who was agentic AI who started making proposals based off of what it thought the Dow should do to

move forward it would still need whatever the majority is for that Dow to pass that thing I think all yeah event I mean they're probably not ready now but like in a few months because there's there's like a bunch of concurrent hackathons that are running right now and millions of dollars and prizes to to get these things more ready for whatever prime time is yeah I think every Dow will eventually have an AI agent in it that has shares in the Dow that's like trying to help move the Dow forward I mean if one of the thesis is that Dows get stuck because humans can't agree on a direction and now all of a sudden you've got an AI with a character file of this is the mission statement and the

values of The Da help us move forward how how do you argue with that it's like okay yeah this person this this II actually does know like what is the right direction of the Dow let's follow it and now you've got AIS that are just leading these Dows yeah I think that we're very close to that being a reality by the time this episode comes out it could be a thing already well do uh do makes sense like you know when I'm thinking like how much information like the AI can process and really summarized in like nice actionable plan you know sometimes like I use it like I need to sort out my own thoughts like BR Guidance just for myself and like it kind of works like from you know I I can talk for minutes

to AI you know put all my ideas there and then like just like can you help me like navigate through my my own I haven't tried that yet that actually sounds like fun yeah like uh I'm actually talking to like to CH GPT more than I'm actually like writing it because like I can just like put my thoughts there right away and then um and then it will just summarize them uh very nicely or whatever I prompted uh with so I feel like that will be the same uh for the Dows like there's so many Dow chat you know like on different channels and uh you know you have the Discord then you have the discords the forums and the AI just like absorb it all and and then we can just ask hey can

you find like what are like the three maybe direction we can go and what are the pros and cons uh and it will just in a in a seconds basically put it out there what I would be little concerned about like would it kind of be too generic because like as AI works the llms like it kind of gets just like the you know most probable kind of ver uh after each other like would we get into the point where like no new ideas would be coming up because it will be still like you know we will use the same kind of principles therefore it will be all getting into the same common place at the end have you thought about it this

way or or another really I don't think I've thought about this way because I've still been resistant to the idea of handing over my thought process to chat gbt like I I use AI significantly less than than most do and that's probably a disservice I probably should be using it a lot more we like I have a colleague who I will ask questions of and then they will take that question and then just type it right into jab gbt and it's like okay I could have done that that wasn't really what I was asking you know um I think for for people who substitute thinking with deferring to AI I think that'll definitely become a problem where their thought process will narrow and narrow and narrow until they're deeply dependent on on AI to form

original thoughts I do think that that's that's a problem I mean we're talking like a general populace that already doesn't think that much like 60% of the world probably just doesn't give a [ __ ] about any of these ideas and they just want to like go to work go home like have be with family go to sleep go to work go home you know what I mean like a very like routine like leave me alone kind of life like they're already not engaging with I think yeah it it'll be the these are the people who are the like the leave me alone people of web one world I would even up the number 60% to like 80 at least 80% of the world is just NPCs kind in a way like I think like

they just don't want to think about these things like uh they are very comfortable with what like the life it's about and they think about different stuff so it's not that they are not thinking it's like we are thinking about like the future of like the world the financial system coordination organization like those are big things most of the people don't even like care or like think they can like influence it so they just you know disregard that in the US something like 24 25% of people even vote so it's like if you're not I mean there are people who care about things who don't vote sure the overlap is probably pretty high of not caring

and not voting yeah I I would agree with that and then uh we are coming kind of up uh on the time so you know my last question uh would be uh when we wrap up like what do you see as the like overall future of dows in 2025 what you are really excited about and the last if you can include into that like what people should be like really paying attention to and maybe if there are new to the house to join uh and just like you know uh see it that would be awesome Okay so so I don't know about 2025 but the example I like to use is that eventually all of our HOAs will be Dows um I like to think of every form of government you

can imagine is right now A deeply Mis functional Dow that just needs to be brought on chain uh and tweaked a little bit and then we've got a series of dows within Dows within Dows so like the world is one big Dow and your country is a dow inside of that Dow and then you got State and then City County and then local and HOA and every step of the way it feeds up to the other it's like nested membership um but down to where you put your money in at the very bottom and where you have significant local control where you're in a neighborhood and you have I mean you're you're voting each one of the ways in each of these nested

areas but your your percentage of impact is higher the smaller you go because you're one of 100 in your neighborhood versus one of a million in your congressional district and I think that when we're able to take smaller chunks of each of these governments and and and add smart contracts which it's not going to happen in 2025 it will I think we'll see more experiments in 2025 um there are some local governments like Boulder is experimenting the state of Colorado experiments significantly um in Miami and Jackson Mississippi like I think uh Jesse Pollock they did one in in um in Oakland like there are smaller communities that are definitely start to

experience and experiment with onchain things um and it'll take one HOA company to be like we're going onchain like you're GNA vote with a key and one house one vote and like I think that that that's the thing that I would really like to see happen because then eventually we get to the a point where your house is tokenized and there there's a company I was working with that was is trying to do basically a Carfax for your house it's like every single piece and function of your house the the house is one nft and then like your washer and dryer is part of it so without having to like go inside and inspect everything just an information sheet of like oh yeah the derrier was

replaced in 2024 whatever all this metadata on chain um contributes to a more like an onchain life in which money gets spent way more efficiently there's so much waste in like in in bureaucratic spending and I a lot of that can be chipped down by turning everything into the Dow so that's that's a future that I would like to see happen I don't know how much it happens in 2025 but that's the future I so you the connection of the onchain and the real world and the local governments and and that might be like you know also kind of the advice for the listeners like you can get involved with your local governments and like try to like blend the seed to go on chain uh with some of the decisions uh

and there are some I just say who needs AI when you got punar to to synthesize your thoughts for you ah thank you how you know that I'm actually real maybe I'm the that's the thought that's going to faster uh yeah and like there are some experiments here in San Francisco as well we have some local Dows like nonprofits working with governments and actually voting on things and distributing money on chain through Brands programs which are government uh so directed so I see this already happening uh so I'm very bullish on the future uh you just uh described so the last thing like uh what um Social account uh people should follow to see

uh see you and get your latest spots um do you have any block or just follow you on X yeah um x uh there's periods of activity versus inactivity um but as we get closer to the AO lach I'll be much more active um I'm zerox Joshua SL because this the zerox Joshua was taken yeah that's probably the the best way um but the the absolute best way and uh this I recommend for anybody who's new uh come to e Denver um it's a free event you can apply right now um app. e.com it's the by far best place for a newcomer to H board most people won't tell you this straight up but like if I

have not met you in person I do not believe that you are a real person and so I very likely will dismiss your DMs and my DMs are open and I try to engage with everybody but like if if you're not introduced from somebody that I met in person and if I haven't met you in person you could be AI or probably a scammer um and the best way to break into those inner circles is to show up to an event like eer and just start meeting people listen to talks uh go to some of the side events join some Dows um but really meeting people in person is the is the only like real civil resistance that we have in this an increasingly online onchain world and I second that and I'm uh coming to Denver

every year and I always enjoy it it's a it's a great vibe there and it's probably the only conference you don't need to pay for the ticket and it's a also the largest uh conference like eum conference in the United States uh yeah exactly and we as a community just got uh uh dividends uh recently I believe yeah we did a um 2023 we did a a mini uh 52,800 which is our Mile High meme we distributed 52,800 to about 3,000 wallets of people who are members of the Dow and that means people who like came to e Denver as an attendee were speaker sponsor uh participate in

the bleon um usually take one Spork and attend at least one eera in the last few years and you become a member and and ear part of our yes and that can be the first D you join actually just uh and I will put the links into show notes like uh how to apply uh for E Denver and then you will get the one Buffy corn you can stake and you will be part uh part of the doubt so uh yeah thank you Joshua uh for that I think this is great advice for other people and it will be happening end of February so very soon uh yeah thank you for all the all the takes I will include the links in the show notes and one more

time I'm saying you if you want to learn more about us you should pre-order our book called I hope so that you pre-order it yeah I pre-ordered this one and I got a special nft so see you can get nft uh as well so go to how. XYZ there are some special editions with Comm and T and you will get the membership nftd as well so thanks everyone for listening uh Joshua thank you for coming and see you at the next episode thank you for tuning into how to Dow if you are excited about the future of dows as we are don't forget to check our book how to Da

available on Amazon and for girls looking for something special visit howto down. XYZ to grab a limited partner Edition version with an NFD that unlocks some very exclusive perks and if you want to dive even deeper we just launched our six week course on Dows back with actionable insight and expert guidance so get a book follow us on social media join our community and we will guide you through the fascinating world of decentralized autonomous organizations until next time keep building keep d [Music]