S4. Ep. 9 - Mutual Credit w Ashley Buck

Transcript

Welcome to the green pill.network podcast. If you're just joining us, we're building a coordination, a network society of thousands of hackers, dreamers, and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world. This podcast features the people who are doing it, and we publish a season of five to 10 episodes every couple months. This season is about lean mean capital allocation machines. In what ways are we going to do different types of capital allocation now that we've brought capital allocation on chain? How can we build crypto economic systems that precisely allocate capital at scale and remove intermediaries? And what are the coolest experiments? These are the themes of green pill season four, lean mean capital allocation machines. My guest today is Ashley Taylor Buck, who is the founder of radical systems and

stable credit protocol. Before that, she was the first employee and eventually the chief social innovation officer at ConsenSys and the founder of the regenerative resource network. Today we are talking on the podcast about mutual credit systems. Mutual credit system is a type of economic arrangement where participants extend credit to each other, allowing them to trade goods and services without the needs for need for traditional money. So credits are created through the act of providing a service or good, and debts are incurred by receiving them. And with the system, basically everyone's trying to balance their debts with the system over time in order to remain in good standing with the system. So I found this episode to be quite radical because

um the idea of people issuing credits to each other is it feels kind of foreign to me because I'm so so used to the idea of banks issuing credit to each other, banks issuing money. But the more and more I talk to Ashley, the more I realize that wow, this is something that has existed since the beginning of human coordination. In tribes and towns, basically these networks of favors, mutual credits, are a really organic way for communities to remain in mutual reciprocity with each other. And I just remember talking to Jeff Emmett when I was in Portland for the local Ethereum Ethereum localism summit and Jeff was like, "You got to do some episodes on mutual credit. It's a really, really powerful primitive." And talking to Ashley, I really got a sense of that.

So, um Ashley, this episode is kind of part theory, part practice. We talked a little bit about uh mutual credit theory and a lot about the practice uh and what she's doing with stable credit and radical systems and in putting those into practice. This is This is actually happening. There's some pilots that are happening and I'm really excited to see where it goes. I think that within the the bounds of this Green Pill season, which is all about capital allocation, I think we're rediscovering a capital allocation system that has existed for millennia in human human civilization and it's only because of the hierarchical industrial age that we've kind of moved away from peer-to-peer credit systems and more towards relying on banks. And the

problems with banks is that they need to extract from you. They're a centralized intermediary in between us. And what are In what ways can we go back to peer-to-peer coordination and do capital allocation in a way that looks like a mutual credit system built on top of a trust network in a local community. So, really bottoms-up feel this episode. How do communities coordinate with each other and use mutual credit to continuously be in good balance with each other. Ashley, such an amazing speaker and such an inspiring entrepreneur, so I'm really glad to have her on the on the season and I think that you're going to enjoy it as well.

Hey Ashley, how's it going? Hey Kevin, good to see you again. Likewise. You want to tee us off with a quick intro of yourself? Yeah. My name's Ashley Taylor Buck. I've been broadly looking at how we can improve economic systems and that research started for me in 2014 at a think tank and um naturally found out about you know decentralized systems as part of that research. Became aware of Ethereum really early on and realized that there are a lot of ideas and there was a lot of innovation that was going to happen and mostly my work has been focused on how do we apply a lot of this innovation to do the things that I'm most interested in which

is around community revitalization and local economic development. So I've been doing mostly what I would call sort of research and innovation technical experimentation that's now starting to apply to some real projects. I sent a tweet asking who I should have on the podcast to talk about mutual credit systems and your name came up several times in that thread. Shout out to Benjamin Life for for recommending you to me. I'm wondering if you could tell me if you could tell the audience about mutual credit and why it's so powerful.

Yeah, mutual credit it's a term that broadly describes how we can use a ledger to keep track of trades of exchanges that can be redeemed for certain things that a community a network a nation or group of nations decide that those units of account can be redeemed for. So it often has been used in situations where there's no like stable government currency or it's used in situations where you have a group of people who maybe don't have access to a lot of resources small businesses for example.

One of the largest mutual credit systems came about by the Swiss beer bank during the depression and you can see then there's this theme of humans invent these sort of alternative economic structures when faced with challenging circumstances. So, when I started doing my original research in the alternative economics field, a lot of the things that I was looking at are what do people do when things go wrong, when they can't rely upon the existing system. And I think that's broadly why a lot of people find themselves in blockchain and crypto, especially in the

social impact space. We sort of are looking at these bigger systemic issues and we're saying it feels that we're at the precipice of a lot of institutions, a lot of the things that we have relied upon in sort of a previous you know, generation are failing. And And they're failing maybe for certain people more than others. And so, when this kind of when these two things started to connect for me, mutual credit and sort of broadly the decentralized movement, it's always been clear to me that there's sort of fundamental underpinning for the future of combining those two things that can help solve a lot of big

problems. Um My My focus now is on, you know, after kind of taking this macro perspective, getting back to the very micro. And I think now we're in a moment where applying the innovation is really where the work is. And now moving away from just like the theoretical understanding. Yeah, it feels like the precipice of something important with Ethereum out there. We can now start to actually practice this stuff instead of just theorize around it. So, yeah, I'm curious I'm curious what you think the most interesting experiments are of doing this in practice.

Yeah so um we built a protocol, it's called stable credit protocol. Um that protocol looked at a lot of the difficulties that mutual credit networks have faced in the past. And when I say mutual credit here, I don't mean just a formalized mutual credit system like the WIR Bank, I also mean uh places in like Nairobi or Venezuela where you don't have stable currencies and people are inventing sort of mutual credit systems that are super informal just to kind of get by. And that looks like uh I go to a shopkeeper and I don't have enough money to buy the apples, but

the shopkeeper knows me, so the shopkeeper will maintain a personal ledger. And maybe they're doing that in their head, they may actually be like writing it down. It's often times like in our text message history between each other and in a situation like this. So, I was looking at these types of examples and thinking through how could you build a system that sort of enables a community ledger that kind of mimics this practice, but still holds people accountable to delivering upon what they say that they're going to do. So, we built the protocol to solve a lot of those issues around accountability and being able to share the ledger amongst a group of people and at the same time uh applying incentives for

people to be able to keep contributing in proportion to what they're taking from the network. Right? Because if you don't have some sort of measure of accountability there, you can end up with like a shopkeeper ending up with a bunch of these credits and they don't know how to spend it. So, you sort of have to think through how can you do community economic management? So, after thinking through how that could work in practice, uh I mean, I think some of the best use cases are in informal market situations. And the reason I think about that is because traditional finance has to charge really high interest rates to try to lend into these communities and it often ends up

being more extractive than helpful. Like people getting further and further debt. So clearly there's a problem or something like a mutual credit ledger based system could be implemented at scale to drive capital more efficiently into these communities without that extractive interest rate pressure. The reason it can do that is because you don't have to raise 100% of the capital to lend into that community in the first place. So that's where I see a lot of this work going.

However, to do that responsibly, ethically, I think you need to partner with the existing community informal institutions on ground. That's very difficult because like they're for informal and so I think we're in a moment of there needs to be a lot more education, awareness, partnerships and also funding of the innovation in a way that's structured from the get-go to make sure that it really is aligned with these goals of you know humanitarian economic development.

Amazing. Well, I want to ask about these rural world communities in a sec, but before I do that do that I just wanted to take a quick detour and and connect mutual credit and what you're doing with stable credit to the season's theme for Green Pill. This season is capital allocation. How's capital allocation going to change now that we have blockchains? And sort of that's that's the broad swath of what we're exploring this season on Green Pill. In the in the way this connects for me is that it feels like mutual credit systems are sort of the natural organic way that small communities can share favors with each other, networks of favors. You scratch my back, I scratch yours. I just keep a ledger in my shop of that. But as finance as communities start to grow and

finance starts to happen, then bankers centralize, bankers have to make a profit, and and therefore that changes the economics of of how these credit systems scales as the bankers are running them and not the people. And now with blockchains, we have a way of maintaining mutual credit systems that don't have extractive intermediaries, the bankers, anymore. And so we can go back to that natural form of mutual credit, but just do it at scale on chain. So I'm Is that too reductionist? Am I saying back to you something that that connects and and and and maybe how would you connect it connect mutual credit systems to this season of capital allocation on chain?

No, I think that's a perfect summation. And I think what you just articulated is sort of the overall goal, right? And this is where I think it's really important for us to define these goals ahead of time. And then when we structure the funding and the operations of this, because there does need to be capital allocated into the development of these systems. It's just the way that it gets allocated needs to be aligned with those initial goals up front. So we could think of an example of this. And say that you're like a large humanitarian aid organization, and you have like a hundred thousand dollars to distribute in the form of like a sort of UBI like system. Uh with a mutual credit

network, you could basically invest it into a community reserve. That community reserve is then backing the ability to issue mutual credit lines to different businesses, who are then able to say, you know, I'm now able to use that initial capital to lend out, you know, five times the amount of my resources to other people within the community. And I know that I'm going to be able to get that paid back. And then if I'm not, there is this reserve here where we can use to to stabilize the economy. But because we're doing it at scale and collectively, which is kind of like what the banking system does, uh we're able to reduce the cost of the access to that capital uh

without needing to lend it out at as extractive rate. Yeah. Uh it feels like there's really something very organic and as old as history about how communities work within these mutual credit systems that just feels really good, uh but we're enabling it with technology. So, it's like it's like high history and high technology and and and combines both of the both both of those things in a way that I think feels really good to me. Yeah, and I there philosophically speaking, I think there's sort of an old paradigm of like tech and finance and building companies that has gotten a sort of lost its way in the sense that it feels that it has to trick people into paying for its services. And I think that kind of

represents the sort of extractive tendency that we've seen. And I think because of that, it sort of has lost sight of real innovation is often what humans do when their sort of back is against the wall. And so, I think if we then take a different perspective and we look at what do what are people inventing in sort of maybe the worst economic situations that we would that we would define and describe and we mimic that behavior with the technology and aid and support it, I think that's just a better approach in general and I think then we can start to think about adoption of a lot of these ideas that brought us to this blockchain space in general, which is more transparency, more efficiency, which leads to more

equitable distribution of capital. So, I think this as I design philosophy is the way forward for us to kind of re- invigorate those original principles. Well, I'd love to dive into some examples of where this is working with real-world communities. Uh can you tell me can you tell me about your favorite example? Yeah, so uh uh the stable credit protocol was built to sort of address kind of fundamental scaling problems that mutual credit has.

Now we've started an approach which is a VC studio. It's called Radical Systems. And Radical Systems is really uh saying, "Let's actually put technology and economics aside for a second. Let's go out into the real world and see what people are doing to solve problems in their local communities." So our first one is a guy named Ari Stern. Uh he's a chef in Baltimore, Maryland. He used to run a CultureFix. It It was called CultureFix, but a culture arts bar in Lower East Side. And then he moved to Baltimore, saw that there was a huge problem with local food getting into the school system. So he started a commissary that's preparing

locally local sourced meals and providing them to schools within the Baltimore area. And he runs into problems of it's really difficult to get that uh to get that work funded. So we've been co-creating with him this commissary model, which basically could function similar to how like a food co-op functions, where in order to receive access to the food, if you're not able to provide uh money to be able to get that, but could you be able to come and work a shift? And also, while you're working that shift, can you get some skills? And now you start to have both like a safe space, you also get meals for your family, and you also start to earn some skills that maybe you want to take out with you and, you know,

work somewhere else eventually. And so we really started looking at that model and saying, "Well, could you expand that model to provide more than just food? But could you also provide like access to daycare, access to social services, access to educational and workforce development. And we started to see that this sort of model, which we call a commissary, could expand to be something that local communities can have to aggregate all the different social services that exist within a given neighborhood or a given city and make them more efficient by collaborating together and introducing these like sort of work trade apprenticeship models. So, that's one of

the um we call it like an investment thesis that we see that can really start to solve some of these fundamental problems around beleaguered cities around the country. So, um is there is there blockchain in the back of this or are people recording these transactions of on an app? Um and if so, could you talk a little bit about the technology that's supporting these pilots? Yeah. So, uh we're in the process of building out this network. And we call that good standing. So, the network uh good standing will start as an iPhone application. It will incorporate the stable credit protocol, which is a blockchain protocol that uh right now is deployed on Celo. It's EVM compatible,

so it could exist on other chains, you know, easily that are EVM and, you know, could be expanded from there. So, in the good standing app, each hub in a community can define what good standing is for them. So, if good standing means that if you work 4 hours here at this community space, then you can get four market baskets for your family. So, that would be a way that we talk about what is sort of the value there. The idea is that you want to be in good standing with these different spaces. And the idea is that these spaces or these hubs can define what good standing means for them. So, another uh person we're working with, her name's Audrey Banks, uh she's in the process of repurposing a

church in Flatbush, Brooklyn. And that church is becoming a community arts social impact incubator space. So, that's a similar model where she was, as her membership program, saying that she wants people to be members of the space, but she wants them to contribute and exchange resources amongst the community. And we're working with her to define what good standing means for that, you know, church and membership space. So, now you can start to see that there are these community hubs that already exist. There are these people who are already doing this work to build community. We're just really partnering them with them to say, "What could help you grow and scale that community organization and what you're trying to

do? Um how would you define good standing? Would you be able to offer a discount on membership?" So, another person that we're now chatting with, his name is Walter Perier, and his family started uh affordable housing economic development programs in the Bronx in the '70s, and now they have, you know, lots of buildings. He's doing some amazing work at a place called the Andrew Freedman Home. And so, his idea is, "What could we offer discounts on rent to our residents in affordable housing who are helping us with things like property upkeep, gardening, you know, really revitalizing these spaces that are often kind of suffering from not having enough

funding to be able to, you know, improve them and make them uh and make them like better places to live." Also, kind of ideas of can then the residents use the collateral of these affordable housing buildings to get more funding to do things like incubator programs, workforce development, new education. So, there are these people out there that have a lot of these ideas in the background. There just needs to be a way simply for them to say, "Here's what we could offer as a community organization. Here's how you can contribute and here's how you can remain in good standing with us as the organization. And the last thing I'll say is, you know, why is that important? A lot of these kind of work

trade things exist, uh, but they exist really informally, like even here in the US, you know, not just talking about in a place like Nairobi. But often times if when you're involved in arrangements like that, especially like between two people or an organization and you, it can become sort of onerous to manage that individually between two people. Like an example would be, well, you can get a free yoga class if you come and wash the blankets at the yoga studio. And that can kind of break down sometimes when it's like, well, how many times did you wash the blankets and how many yoga classes do you get? So, being able to just simply track that is actually a service that we can provide to do a lot of things without needing as

much capital and also help these organizations run and operate that are not typically and are almost never are structured to maximize for profit. They're usually structured to maximize for providing the best product and service that they can and not needing as much capital to do that. So, we're running into all these types of use cases. Uh, so now that's kind of led us to consolidating that into what is sort of the basic, um, go-to-market or or MVP of this good standing app. And that's what we're building out right now.

I love the name of the app, good standing. It's such an it it feels like to me like that's the equilibrium of the system is that all the citizens are in good standing, but it's also a very visceral job to be done if I'm a member of one of these communities. I want to be in good standing with my community. So, I found that to be really elegant. Thanks, yeah. I mean, and and it's a term, uh, we actually wrote a piece about this that I that's on our website. It's a term that's used a lot about, is your corporation in good standing with the government, you know? Uh, it's used at the Park Slope Food Co-op. Are you in good standing? I think it's even it's in a Broad City episode. Someone like that.

Uh mentioned that to me today, actually. So, it it is sort of this term that I think is out there that when you hear it, you're like it does sort of compel this idea of I do want to contribute. And what I guess what I can say about that, too, we're experiencing um more and more mental illness. We're experiencing more and more um depression. You know, I think suicide rates are the highest they've ever been in America. So, when you look at that holistically and you say, you know, there's this lonely loneliness epidemic going on.

There's more and more problems in the world, it seems. And with like digital media, we feel like we're bombarded by these things. So, I really think there needs to be a place, and that place both exists online and in these physical community hubs, where people can say, "When I'm kind of checking into the good standing mindset, I'm really checking into how can I contribute and problem solve and also not feel like I'm doing it alone." Because I think that's something that I've been diagnosing is people who do try to take on these issues, and they often take them on alone because that's sort of how our society has constructed itself. They burn out, they get fatigued, or they get overwhelmed, and that kind of

contributes to furthering the problem of that underlying issue, and then also the fact that these initiatives don't get enough support so that other people can plug into them. So, I think what we're really also saying is we have a public health crisis, and when we have that, we're not able to actually imagine and contribute and build the best solutions. So, I think there's like a fundamental good for humanity and just saying, "Here's a place where you can know that you actually are contributing and solving a problem and not doing it alone, and therefore it's probably going to be more effective.

Yeah, I'm reminded of uh I had David Erlichman on the podcast who's now the founder of Hats Protocol, but he uh at the time we were talking about his book Impact Networks, and he basically graphed communities as in in a graph format where there is nodes and then they're connected to each other, and basically discerned that the the number one indicator of the health of a community and whether it was going to create impact over time was the number of relationships. So, was there a hub and spoke? Was there a central intermediary in in the network? Um or was it more of a peer-to-peer network?

And it was the strength of the relationships in there, which is I I just thought it was like a profound way of of saying that um taking us back to the basics of our humanity, and it's actually our relationships. Uh it's There's an Irish proverb, it's in the shelter of each other that people live, and in our high-tech world 2024, it feels like a lot of us have forgotten that, and it's in its roundabout way to get back to it through technology, but um it feels like these mutual credit systems rely on those principles as well. Yeah, totally. And I think there's something that comes up there, too, which is if we have more of these relationships that we can rely upon, and and we can rely upon them again because we do have these measures of

transparency and accountability. But there also is then a sort of relaxing of the need to uh figure out how to get your basic needs met. That's sort of the goal, right? And I think there's a philosophy here, which is if you can meet your basic needs, and you can feel that you're supported to do that, and you understand that there's this system here where as long as you're contributing, you can be able to to get those basic needs met. And they should be met in a healthy way, too, right? Like we're not talking about the cheapest food that you can find. It needs to be food and um spaces and things that are actually rejuvenating for the spirit and supportive to to the to the human. And I think there's a philosophy here, which is where I mean

and we didn't invent this, right? This is like Maslow's hierarchy. But if you can do those things, people can actually then start to think about self self-actualization. What do they actually want to contribute on a broader scale? And I think there is when we do get into a philosophical question around can we actually solve our problems without first addressing the fact that basic needs are not met for so many people? And if we can do that in the best way, then actually we're going to spur more innovation around the things that we do talk about in terms of economic development and growth. So I think there's a sort of trend towards addressing these root problems, but because it's really the only way that we

can address these bigger systemic issues. Yeah. And And the other thing I'm sort of like taking away from this conversation and and learning about mutual credit systems is that this season of Greenpill is all about capital allocation. And in some ways I actually feel like that's the like on episode four of the season and I'm saying that's the wrong question to be asking. But um the capital allocation networks that we want to build depend on the trust networks that we're building. And I think that that's a really important primitive. Uh the capital is going to flow where the trust already exists in these existing peer-to-peer networks, which maybe in some places they're broken, but in some places they're strong. I think that's that's the building a capital allocation graph on top of the trust graph feels like a

really strong antifragile way of doing capital allocation. Yeah, totally. And I think that's where we can get away from more extractive business models and get more into regenerative business models. And I think you're right to say that there's kind of layers to this approach. And fundamentally to me it is basic needs and basic needs kind of encompasses, are we doing that in the best way that we can? And then once we're doing that, what do we want to do and create, right? So, maybe someone wants to be an entrepreneur. And a good example of this is our third case study is a guy named Jerry Norris, who's running a place called The Fledge in Lansing, Michigan, which shout out to

Benjamin Life as well, because he connected us. And we're that piece should come out any any week now. And it'll be on our website. And what Jerry has really figured out and demonstrated well is that once you do meet people where they're at, provide them a safe space, address basic needs. And you know, he's doing this in I think like the seventh most dangerous city in America. Like there's lots of gang violence. There's lots of drug use. You know, there are a lot of real problems that are happening in the community. And but he's provided a safe space for people to come. He kind of creates this system of I'll just meet you where you're at. And then from

there, get to know you. And then eventually, once these people start to trust him, they'll say, "Well, actually I'm interested in, you know, becoming a musician, or I want to learn to code in classes, or I want to start a construction company." And so, he tailors his programming to meet the individual where they're at. And I think that's a huge insight that I'm starting to take away, which is the most effective kind of means of supporting so still like addressing the individual desires that we have. And at the same time, we need these collaborative spaces that it can help us do that, because we can't do it all on our own.

If you're maximally successful in building mutual credit systems into the world with with your with your project stable credit and radical systems, what do you think the world looks like in 10 years? So, if you're maximally successful, what do what do things look like 10 years out? Yeah so stronger local economies. So, bringing back local businesses, bringing back micro businesses, lots of community spaces where you can go, hang out, contribute, functioning, thriving social media network where you're figuring out this is where I can go on a Friday night and both like see a musician perform, but at the same time I know that I like work the ticket

booth like earlier that week, so I got my ticket price reduced. So, it's a way to really start to see that we're not just consumers of all these experiences around us. We're actually working to help co-create and produce them. And then at the same time, I think in places where we don't have stable, functioning government-backed currency systems where corruption has become really rampant, I think we're starting to see real change happening in terms of there being able to be economic growth in places that have been stagnant and shrinking for a very long time. And I think we need to be doing both of these things simultaneously in terms of addressing humanity as a whole rather

than just as these like fragmented sort of west, you know, east, sort of global south, you know, global north, like starting to really see that our problems are similar, especially when they're structural, and that we need to address them holistically, but at the same time understand that each individual community can have its own flavor and its own definition of how they want to do that. Yeah. It It feels like in a way we're finding a vision of bottoms-up finance that's as old as history, but maybe we've forgotten in the industrial age because of centralization.

Yeah, totally. And I think maybe at like 10 or however many years we are into this blockchain space development, it feels like we developed a bunch of open-source tech. We have like so many things to play with, but we also kind of need to go back to the drawing board, and I think that's what I like about, you know, what you're doing and and what you're saying about kind of re-articulating what we're actually doing with this tech. And I think language is so important in this moment in time, and also just to say let's also reimagine even the tech that we built so far. Like we built all this stuff open source for a reason. We built it so that we can really be experimental, and now I think that's the

the phase that we're in, and I guess the the sort of principles that we should remember as we do that is as we're experimenting, setting our goals in the beginning, and holding ourselves accountable to the actual goals that we're saying right now as we're redefining what's possible. Is there a way that I can take mutual credit systems, which I understand have evolved in lo- in in tribes and in um in townships for for thousands of years? Is there a way that I can take those principles and practice them in my DAO? I I I guess I'm just wondering, you know, I spend 8 to 10 hours a day working on Gitcoin DAO, and is there a way that I could begin to practice this within my DAO knowing it's so time-tested as a way to coordinate, and that we're still really trying to figure

out DAO era coordination? Yeah, so the way I would think about that would be um what are the goals of the DAO? What tasks need to get done? Um who's performing those tasks? And what are the In exchange for performing those tasks, is there sort of some um offer that you can receive for doing that? So, maybe it's something like, well, you can have a vote in the DAO, but it's not based around how much capital you have, it's how many hours you put in that month. And then you could weight the sort of vote that you have based around how much you contributed, and maybe that could be even weighted based around like different tasks meaning different things. And so then we start to move

away from things being just overly about like financial uh performance and more about we just need to get this done and who's contributing to make that happen. Yeah, I'd be interested I I I feel like DAOs in the 2021 era we have this like really lengthy, high overhead, but also high upside proposal process where you spend tens of hours and there's maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars on the side of uh creating a proposal and that's created um you know, a a lot of traction, but there's also a room for a lot more bottoms-up coordination that can happen um and and I think that like a lot of the coordination that I see is someone DMing me and saying, "Hey, can you join this Twitter space for 10 minutes?" And, you know, show face or uh "Hey, I need a

favor. Can you fill out this form?" or something like that. And and just being able to have like a little bit more emergent bottoms-up coordination that is a problem in in DAOs, at least the ones I've participated in this far. And and uh it feels like a mutual credit system could be a a way of of meeting that need. Yeah, for sure. I think I think it totally could and then maybe we can explore that. Yeah, well, when good standing is released, I think I may uh bring it into the Gitcoin and see if we can if we can prototype it in a non-local environment. That'll be fun. All right. Yeah, I mean, we could prototype it with stable credit protocols, too. I mean, that may even more cuz that's already built and exists, so we could do that.

Cool. Um well, is there anything I didn't ask that you want to say? Um yeah, I I guess I want to say um for us, we're as we're building this good standing network, uh there's a lot of different ways that people can contribute and where I see this going is sort of this collaborative, cooperative venture that has these goals of economic development, revitalizing communities. And so one of the things that's um coming up as we've been doing this work is we're identifying these amazing entrepreneurs, you know, around the country, around the world, who are doing efforts to uh solve problems, systemic problems in their communities. So, I'm very interested in people who want to

like get their hands dirty with actually working on the ground while at the same time helping to prototype and build out this network. Uh so, people who I think want to want to get involved and learn how to support uh that's mostly what I'm interested in right now, especially coming from understanding kind of systemically what can be built, but then also wanting to know more about how does that actually connect to these entrepreneurs that we're working with. So, I welcome conversations like that on my Twitter DM. Great. Well, we'll have a link to your Twitter, to Radical Systems Twitter, and to Stable Credit in the show notes. So, if you're listening, open up your podcast player and click over to the show notes and start browsing those sites. And uh Ashley, thanks so much for

coming on the Green Pill podcast. I think what you're doing is really cool and uh definitely adds to our season about capital allocation. Yeah, thanks Kevin. Thanks for uh holding the space to start to explore some of these ideas. All right. See you next time. All righty, you just heard from Ashley Buck. I am excited about talking to her because I think mutual credit is a really powerful way of remaining in mutual reciprocity with a group of humans, and doing capital allocation on top of that is just icing on the cake. Thanks for listening to the greenpill.network podcast. Again, this podcast features the people who are building a coordination, a network society of thousands of hackers, dreamers, and doers using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world like Ashley Taylor Buck. If you value our work, you can collect this

episode. Go to pods.media/greenpill and find all the episodes and start collecting. Quick shout out to JT Nickel how.that.eth simons.sd.eth 0xLucas sky.dao Shawn W Brand, MMA on chain, and James.eth who are our top collectors of the capital allocation season for Green Pill. Thank you so much for supporting the Green Pill podcast. Um while you're here, you might as well check out the greenpill.network website where you can download the greenpill book for free, join the Discord, and become a member of your local greenpill.network chapter. Thanks so much for listening.

See you next time.