The Rollup TV: Tuesday, June 17th

Transcript

Heat. [Applause] [Music] Heat. Heat. Heat. N.

Heat. Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat. [Music] Heat.

Hey, hey, hey. [Music] Heat. Heat. Heat.

[Music] Heat. Heat. Heat. N. [Applause] [Music] What's going on, guys? Welcome back to

the rollup TV. Today we have three awesome guests which feels like a doozy now after doing five yesterday by myself and I think we did six on Thursday when the internet bricked out. But unfortunately we are in a uh a state of war in the world. Uh we have Iran we have Trump jumping in on the Israel Iran war. Uh la latest I saw here was uh the Iranian government was telling people to leave Tel Aviv. Trump said he's looking for an unconditional surrender to the uh Iranian people and it seems like both the uh leader of Iran and Trump both

want to kill each other. So that's the state of things. Uh the market is clearly you know reflecting that and I think that's okay. generally I think war is really really bad for humanity. Uh but it's going to force the hand of central bank banks to end up printing. Um and so I think if you can look back and study previous wars, small ones, big ones, they tend to have a similar outcome in terms of asset performance, but I feel that that's a little bit uh kind of shallow to think about as of now. So hearts go out to people in uh the Middle East and um yeah, I mean just kind of grateful today for not having to worry about that that sort of stuff. Um, we have other topics though on the political spectrum that are happening as as well. So, why don't we just jump

right into these and uh and get started. Um, up first we have Coinbase sponsoring the US Army's 250th anniversary. This stirred the pot on Twitter and really ruffled some feathers. Um, so Coinbase was the official sponsor of the US Army's 250th anniversary in in DC. You know, Amazon, Oracle, and some of these other big companies sponsored as well. And you know, there was like a C-SPAN footage of all these all of these uh soldiers walking along and then boom, Coinbase just kind of flashed. Um, and really people I saw one tweet from Adam Cochran saying that this he sold all of his Coinbase uh stock position. He he's moving any assets that he had on

Coinbase off of the exchange and that this is not aligned with the original ethos that he signed up for. Um, I mean to to me that's a bit of an overexaggeration. Like I think all Coinbase is trying to do is is achieve new audiences. Um, but really this raises broader questions about crypto's mainstream assimilation. Uh, and and really just institutional partnerships with large people in in the world. So to me, I think people are overexaggerating if you if you call this a sellout. Um, because I I just don't think this is like Coinbase selling out. I think it's them trying to reach new audiences. So that happened there. That's why people were upset. I understand what why people were upset, but it's hard to kind of understand that, you know, that Coinbase

trying to go out and reach new audiences is is part of the problem, per se. So, that was that. Uh, moving on away from Coinbase. Um, and and this kind of performance with regards to the army. Um, up next, we had some interesting news around Hyperlid. So, I put a tweet out yesterday as well, you know, with the typical copy pasta meme. uh Hyperlid hitting all-time high. Uh and the question here is, is Hyperlid the real deal or is it overhyped? Now, disclaimer, uh myself and Rob have been holding a position in Hyperlid since I think our first buys were around $2 on the minute or two it launched and bought all the way up uh to like 10:15. And so, we we think that that this is going to

keep doing well. Um I think we clipped at one of our first sells as as of recent in like I think yesterday even or the day before. So, I think anytime that I'm posting a a price prediction of a of a crypto asset, something that I rarely ever do, or a screenshot of of of a ticker, you know, it's a good time to sell. But in this tweet, I think Beast ICO, one of the more popular accounts uh on crypto Twitter these days, tweeted that Hyper Core Hyper EVM parallelism is one of the most interesting tech developments uh that we've seen in a while. uh there's a composability between the actual decks and the per exchange itself with uh the you know hypervm with all the different farming opportunities, yield opportunities and

such there. Um so nobody really knows what this means and nobody really knows how to value it. We had a really good episode with flood about this on the TV a couple weeks back where we talked about uh what how to think about valuing hyperlquid and I think that uh right now people are arguing that its current valuation is risky and and possibly overextended. Uh that being said, Flood put out a tweet saying that real capital allocators are going to be looking for assets that have a a substantial size and you know are kind of optimizing for growth rather than kind of what some of you guys in the trenches may do be may be doing which is more of like trying to find the lowest cap. So that's one one way to think about it. Um the the other thing is that it doesn't have any VC

backing. So there's not going to be like these you know unlock schedules that you have they have to think about. Um, but I think the way to think about Hyperlid is that if it can if it can obtain a small uh portion of what the uh total volume and market cap is of something like Binance or B&B, then that then I think there's still a lot of upside less uh left. Um, if they had VCs, would they have grown this fast? Uh, it's hard to say, but it's now kind of become the coin that like all of the anon accounts that hate on all VC coins, they, you know, they even rip on me at times. Um, that it's kind of become that the coin for that type of mindset and and so I

think that has done well for for the entire hyperlquid community and just environment as a whole. And so I think that'll probably uh continue. Do I think it's going to be like a solar e thing? I think it's going to outperform both ETH and Soul. Not financial advice. Um but let's see. Let's see how to h how this thing uh performs. Obviously today things are down but um you know I think this is going to continue to be one one of the fastest horses and of course I do have a position so not financial advice. All right, moving on um to a the next kind of uh bigger news of the day is IGEN layer launched IEC cloud. So they've actually rebranded IEN layer to

on their Twitter uh uh name to IGEN cloud. Um and basically what they're what they're positioning for is a next generation platform for creating and running verifiable apps, services and AI uh backed by crypto's infrastruct. So basically what's happening here is that IGEN layer is going to leverage uh the Ethereum restaking uh you know uh TBL that that they have and that uh capital to provide decentralized security uh using the IGEN token for slashing as well as eventually probably the ETH itself. Um I cloud is looking to try to make these infrastructures into uh impactful apps. Again, the it's a very populist uh kind of narrative, right? Is is that infert apps and um uh no revenue

or unverifiable amount of ROI to pure numbers, quantitative impact. And so, you know, I think that that this is the logical step for layer. I saw a tweet that was kind of describing it how it was like look you know uh Ian layer was you know was an was was doing the whole layer thing because that was what was popular um you know or at least like the name but I think the way to actually think about layer more concretely is in this cloud. So I think like if you think about the traditional cloud infrastructure you have um you know you have like your basic cloud providers and basically think about the level of transparency and verifiability that you would have with these uh I think you

know I think with Ian layer you get a different level of transparency based on a and verifiability based on their uh kind of crypto stack. So, uh, that's exciting and shout out to the team there. Um, and yeah, uh, looking forward to seeing what they can do. All right, last but not least before we have seven come on, um, we have a, uh, Kraken Inc. L2 launching inc token. The question is, does one need another Inc. token? Do we need more L2 tokens? Now, I'm not going to give them What is cool though is that uh they are gonna fight against bass in some capacity, right? Like obviously Kraken is in Inc. is fighting

against Bass's base. Bass is clearly winning. That's okay. Inc is now going to launch a token. Uh which makes a ton of sense for if you think about like what we were talking about yesterday on on the stream. It was like with with both of the VCs, Robbie and Jonah, it was a lot about the verticalization of um any sort of crypto companies, right? So, you know, starting from the top down, Coinbase wallet, Coinbase exchange um Coinbase uh Perpetuals Coinbase Pro, base, the L2, and then all the way to down to potentially like, you know, base a token. Think about Kraken in the same way. Kraken the exchange, uh, Kraken the Inkchain, Kraken custody and institutional, think they were actually thinking about doing an IPO as

well, and then Kraken Inc. uh, Ink Inkchain and then Inc. token all the way down. Again, anytime I'm seeing these types of of of content, I'm thinking verticalization at scale. Everyone's trying to own from the top of the stack to the bottom of the stack. And so when I think about it from like the like like the roll-ups perspective, right? It's like, okay, we have, you know, Andy Rob team, the rollup as like the top ofunnel distribution. You bring it down, we have different like consulting offers, content offers, ad offers, but that's just like the middle of the funnel. you know, I I was talking to Yano from Blockworks and they're really using like these conferences to try to sell their uh you know, data and research, right?

And so we're hosting a happy hour, a private dinner uh and doing different events in the city next week as well. And like I'm just really trying to optimize for the top of funnel right now and then thinking more and more about how to build the bottom of the funnel. And I think that's what that's what this is a great example of. So, I mean, look, I don't know how the market's going to receive this thing because if you look at the charts of a lot of like OP, ARB, ZK, etc., it's really not looking great. Um, and so I I'm not sure how we generally are going to see the market react. Um, but I think aside from aside from, you know, whether uh the market is exhausted or not, I just think that Kraken's just trying to do everything that they can to verticalize their stack

and and and I think uh they might force BAS's hand by doing this, but perhaps not. I don't think it's gotten nearly as much traction as some of the other L2s. Uh but I but I do think that of all of them uh these types of centralized exchange-based uh L2s are going to have more traction because like for example we saw Bybit launch their uh sex dex by real uh thing on on Salana uh either yesterday or the day before we covered it and this is really another example of of of like why that's probably going to perform better than any just you know random decks. They have this massive distribution network. They have the exchange. They have the users and they can direct them there. Same thing with

Kraken. You have this massive exchange. You have these users uh and you can direct them there. And so look, we'll see what happens to the token, but I thought this was uh uh pressing enough news. Um and yeah, uh looking forward to having our first guest join, Stephen. Um he should be here relatively shortly. Little bit of backstory about Stephen. um he he's been investing in different AI companies for uh quite a while. He is the GP of um of Nazire Ventures which is actually named after a famous wave in Portugal. Um and uh it's basically been a AI venture fund for a while. Uh

Stephen's been doing investments since 97 um and has quite a bit of of a background in uh just overall AI investing and more. So looking forward to kind of just like uh seeing what he has to say. He was actually also a partner at Pan at Panta uh which I think is particularly interesting and so um we'll we're going to get some thoughts on the state of AI from him um and more. So, I think he'll just be joining in in a sec. While we're waiting, I'm going to read the timeline like usual uh and wait till he joins. So, let's give it just one sec.

All right, let's play. Andy reads the timeline. 100 million liquidated from the crypto market in the past 60 minutes. Sick. App builders are by far the most from narolf. App builders are by far the most in demand people in crypto right now. For chains, it became even more difficult to find than raising money. That's pretty good take.

Oh man, JD Vance with a tweet about Iran. Gotta love that. Oh, new Arthur Hayes. Assume the position is a discussion on the stable coin mania brewing in public stock markets. If you want your bow movements to stay regular, read on. If a stable coin issuer or tech provider cannot distribute through a crypto exchange or le social media giant or legacy bank, they have no business. Wow, that is uh that is intense. Um all right, guys. Just waiting on Stephen still. He should be here in a sec. Um, yeah.

Will ZK be bigger than blockchain? Question from million. All right, reading the timeline here. Um, okay. This is going to be interesting. Uh, all right. Here we go. So, looks like Ubix launched a a $10 million round. Um, all right. Here we go. Just in Treasury, Secretary Bessant says

crypto stable coins can lower government borrowing costs and reduce national debt. Okay. A thriving stable coin ecosystem will drive demand from the private sector for US treasuries which back stable coins. This newfound demand could lower government borrowing costs and help rein in the national debt. Wow, these guys are bowled up on stable coins. I think they see stable coins as a very clear way to extend the the US dollar hedgeimonyy and just extend the the the broad power of the dollar. Uh which I think is particularly interesting.

introducing Nansen Points today. Uh, season 1. Um, All right, guys. Just give us a sec

here. We're having some uh some troubles on the backside here. Oh, the sloths are on a Clob TV episode. Gotta love it. Yeah, we're just having some technical difficulties with with the guest here, guys. Um, no worries, though. Um, and uh, we're just going to keep

reckoning to the timeline. Let's see what else do we have here. Sometimes when you lose something you love, eg money at 20, you feel like life is over. Then you lose the same thing at 40 and you know that life is over for the 69th time and you keep going. That's funny. Yeah. All right.

Well, um, looks like we that second guess is not going to make it. Uh, which is okay. The first guess is not going to make it, which is okay. Um, we're just going to keep reacting to the timeline until Maine shows up, which uh shouldn't be too much longer. Um, and yeah, so let's see. Perfect.

Perfect. All right, let's see what other tweets we got on the timeline here. 98% chance from Watch Your Guru. Federal Reserve leaves interest rates unchanged tomorrow according to Poly Market. I think that's pretty uh consensus to be honest. Um makes sense. Let's see. Uh oh, Tim Clancy posting a photo of the Central Intelligence Agency uh letter um and saying Ethereum saved his life instead of joining the CIA.

It's pretty based. Yesterday, uh, the Flashbots guys, Bert, launched their MEV their ME and the limits of scaling thesis. Um, check check that out. Bert C Miller's Twitter. Uh, super interested. All right, guys. Yeah, we had some some

technical difficulties um all over the place today. One of the guests did not want to join the stream uh for various reasons, but it's all good. Uh we're we're going to have uh uh Trader Maid up next and we'll be talking about uh everything that he is seeing in the markets. Kind of a rough day to to do so, but uh that's all good. And um yeah, get get started. Nick Carter says, "Most of my crypto

trading group chats just talk about stocks now. The new meta is literally just stocks." My goodness. FOMC that the Fed will decide on interest rates today. Will the Fed finally cut rates? Actually, I think that might have just been happening right now or very Actually, isn't that tomorrow? No, it's tomorrow. These guys are wrong. Cointelegraph wrong. Uh, let's see. A AO DJ on base. Um, it's pretty pretty random, but interesting.

Actually, I want to pull this up. Um, so this is an interesting um, setup here where I just want to talk about what what I'm seeing on on Kaido. If you scroll down, you you'll see the main uh tweet here from from the Kaido founder, which I think people were getting a bit a bit uh a little bit upset about with the infoi meta where basically there was a lot of encouragement for just like slop and

different kind of BS uh on the Kaido Algo. Um, and basically like what what they've done is they've rolled out a upgrades to their algorithm that focuses on posts that only mention rewards or ranking without providing any insight or commentary on the product project will no longer earn mind share. I think that's obviously good. Um, reduce the default max weekly mind share contributing tweets to priorities qual to prioritize quality over quantity uh with teams still being able to customize. I think that's important as well. feel like people were just like spamming these boards. Like I've unfortunately stopped looking that much at the Kaido boards um and just being like, "Well, uh I don't really want to

use these Kaido boards if this is going to be, you know, the case where these random accounts with little pickup are the main, you know, winners of of this infoi meta." Uh further crackdowns on engagement and group farming. Yeah, I think that's probably been happening at large. um and uh yeah fair mechanism for loyalty boosting consistent long-term alignment without penalizing wider participation. So, uh, you know, like I think generally speaking, this is the right idea. Um, and you know, we should see that basically less spam of tweets.

Um, and and more. So, if we can just scroll up a bit on on the tweet here, you'll actually see uh what OB's take was. And I think that Obby had the right tweets. So, he's saying like, look, you need real insight like uh, you know, commenting on some sort of open if you scroll up a bit more. um to the tweet itself that you can see real insight based on the uh actual like monetization mechanism or or some sort of real uh attribution to to the to the product. Um loyalty counts as well. Consistently posting about projects boosts your score and yeah, they're basically filtering out spam uh you know being too loud uh

versus actually providing any sort of real value to these teams. So, look, I think this was always the potential downfall of this kind of Infoi setup. Um, but I'm glad to see that now we have uh the the team of Kaido kind of pushing forward and making the necessary changes and I hope to see more of that going forward. So, looking forward to that. Um up next there's there's actually some other interesting news that has came out of the space as of recent uh which is around uh th this actually idea of the high performance privacy first collabs.

So I think this is worth talking about briefly where um there are now with the launch of Celestia's private DA using succinct uh Habachi has introduced the win upgrade uh which is pulling up on the screen now and and and basically right now this this kind of habachi or this club war thing is pretty pretty hot. Um there's there's a lot of conversation around clubs around kind of what that what that setup is going to be. Um and so Habach is coming in and basically trying to do this uh in a private manner. Um and and essentially just focus on only doing privatebased uh high frequency trading pers and dexes.

If you guys can recall, as of two weeks ago, um, you know, James Win was getting liquidated on chain and basically he was he was doing it all in public. A and I think that's why he was having those issues was because, well, as soon as you post anything in public, you know, you can actually uh see your where where your liquidation is, where you're going wrong. And so, you know, he's kind of changed his his his mind after getting liquidated for 100 mil and is now uh probably sad. So, you look at Hibachi uh with with their new uh you know, high performance win upgrade. And I think this is something that uh is interesting. Another thing that uh got my on my feed today was uh from Hib. He

went back and forth with me a little bit about his uh his kind of prediction with this AI slop stuff. Um so I'm I'm I'm going to get it up on the screen in a second here, but you can actually see that uh basically what did on our show like in January and then put out well like prior to coming on the show he put out a tweet about it. Um but he he wrote that he thinks novelty and market eagerness continues through 2025. Uh but he thinks that everyone is going to uh uh have a sudden re reversal around chat bots that they'll become so ubiquitous that people will get turned off by them.

Sentiment will reverse seeing stories of their favorite human koss um uh losing their livelihoods will kindle a class will kindle a kind of class consciousness. users will start discriminating in favor of human koss even if their content is less consistent. And so I I put out this tweet earlier uh as well above saying like look um you know if you if if if you click on on uh my tweet there you can see what kind of put what what started this but I I tweeted the the AI slop reply guys have gotten out of control. I'm blocking 20 plus uh AI slops per day here. Please help Elon.

Um, a and if you scroll up, you can see some of those tweets there. And it's funny, I think that tweet on the bottom is also slop. And I also took a screenshot. Uh, if you scroll up to the top tweet here, what you'll see is that first tweet and then is is me screenshotting somebody else's saying, look, like literally the the biggest load of garbage. So, I I I just thought Hib was completely spot on with this. And I felt like he was actually going to be uh you know he was uh vindicated in the sense that um well I'm tired of the slop. He's tired of the slop. Everyone's tired of the of of the slop. And I think that this entire AI meta has really changed the way that people perceive it and want to participate in it when it's

just purely kind of like I don't know. It's just like there's nothing productive coming of it and all of your tweets on Twitter are um just kind of spammy and it's just not not great for the program. Another cool tweet here that I found um that I'll bring up on on the screen is from Mark Zeller, a good friend of the show um and kind of from from back in the day on a and plasma has just deposited uh a billion of stable coins into um a so this is part of their pre-deposit campaign. Veta Labs, Plasma uh well I think Veta Labs has basically

like been the team in Infrastruct provided the the infrastructure to allow this and then Plasma has gone up and uh deposited several hundred million of USDT and USDC uh on chain and so this is uh the first billion of plasma's predeposit campaign um and then we will see what happens on the next billion uh coming. I think they will maybe open it up for a total of two billion, but that's still kind of yet to be seen. Um, and I'm looking forward to kind of understanding and learning about exactly how much they plan to to do.

Uh, another really cool thing that happened uh that I think we hinted towards is uh this from our friends from Blockworks. Um, so I'm going to pull that up as well. And this is part of the trend that we spoke about with Bybit and Mantle. Um, basically bybit has launched their buy real decks on chain. But I think the core trend here is is what I was describing yesterday, which is that uh the dex sex uh fight and dominance is is is going to be a it's going to flip and I think we're getting closer than ever. Um, for the first week of June, Dexes did more volume than Binance, which is huge. I I assume uh Hyperlid is going to be taking a big a big part of

this. Um and also Pancake Swap. Uh it you can see in the comments people are are memeing Hyperlquid for being a DEX. Uh which is classic C node. Gotta love that. Um, and yeah, I think I think this is a a massive step and something that we should be in generally excited about as the space pro progresses on because I think that what what we're going to see is more and more actual uh people coming on chain and using dexes versus just using centralized ex exchanges. And I think this is the like while we're all fighting about the claw wars or you know who's going to have the strongest you know decks or use case etc. what what we should be really thinking about is

actually how to um you know get more more and more people on chain. So that's what I'm excited about uh with with regards to this tweet. Um and yeah, looking forward to uh to seeing that Yep. Um, a couple more tweets to react to on the timeline. Um, we had we had some pretty interesting uh uh news. We we covered IEN. We covered um the INC token. Uh, we did not cover the uh pump.f fun um protocol went down. Uh,

which I thought was uh was interesting. Here we had um or sorry, just their Twitter account went down. Um here we had uh IEN layer. If you pull that tweet up another one um here we had A16Z announces today uh from IEN that they are going to uh do or that they have committed a additional $70 million in IGEN tokens with a lockup uh over the past couple years. The IEN team, let's go ahead and pull this tweet up here. Um the IGEN team is is actively uh working and they so A16Z did a massive investment into IGEN um as of

I think it was like in their most recent round and so now they've actually doubled down again. I don't know if this is some sort of like OTC deal. They didn't post the terms but I assume there was some sort of discount with a with a lockup. Um, I couldn't really see anything in the comments there, but look, I think that this is exciting for IGEN and for A16Z, and I think it's something that that they should both be uh, you know, excited about. And look, I mean, I think a lot of these tokens have gotten pretty bad uh, kind of feedback, right? Like if you look at the charts of a lot of these like VC tokens, I mean, even if you look at the comments, right?

It it's pretty negative. And so I think that uh you know having the ability to actually uh get A16Z to commit to uh getting involved at that type of scale with that type of capital. Um you know I think that's I think that's something that I should be proud of uh and that A16Z should be uh hopefully excited about if they got a a good deal. So all right guys, I think we finally have our next guest coming up. Um which is exciting. We've got Trader Maine coming soon. Um, so we're going to get him up.

And yeah, I've been following Maine's content for a while. Um, he's been he's been quite active on the TA side of things for many many years. I think I first started him first saw him at in 2017 when when he was doing a lot of TA. Uh, he has a pretty funny meme for I don't know people people ask him about his neck or his trades and he's got a specific charting ability. So, um, yeah, looking forward to kind of getting his take on on the on the markets. I I don't think he's too happy about the war today, uh, and and kind of how the markets are shaping up, but that's all good. Um, we'll get him up here in a sec and we'll get started with the first guest segment for today. Thanks for bearing with us, uh, through that first

segment. I had a little bit of an interesting hiccup, but all good. So, as far as what what we're going to talk to to man about today, um some of the craziest stories he's seen on Breakout, uh his thoughts on Miad, Gainy, and some uh how he's trading the current uh situation in this kind of uh heavy headline in environment. um what he thinks about the the mercy of narratives um and more his contrarian takes um and generally what he's seeing in the market. So looking forward to

having him on here in a couple seconds. Uh in the meantime, hope you guys enjoyed that new intro video today. I thought it was I thought it was pretty well done. Just going to give it a couple sec here until we get going and we should be up and running. First question for Maine. Do you think Hyperlcoin has more room to run from now until the end of the year?

That's not going to be the first question. Fellow Canadian, he is as well. Um, I don't know if you guys knew, but my parents were born in Canada and I was a Canadian originally with two passports, but ended up just having my own my American passport. Now, when I told Maine that, he was like, "Oh, wow. They uh they luckily got away." And I was like, "Yeah, my my parents did." Unfortunately, I didn't. Um, but I am in the States, so I guess I kind of did.

All right, guys. He should be up in one second. Then we'll get this thing rolling. Hope you guys are are surviving the market today. It's not that bad if you zoom out. Let's see what some of the latest stuff on Maine's profile is going to be a long day. Unconditional surrender. Bro said we won't take him

out for now. Wow, Breakout's crushing it. I didn't realize this. This is sick. breakoutprop.com. Oh wow. So it's like a it's it's basically helping early uh you know traders get started and uh it's it's optimizing for um essentially really really good ex execution for traders.

Very sick. All right, we're going to get him up in just a sec, guys. Thanks for the patience. It's been a bit of a bit of a a bumpy start today um with the with the situation there on the first guest, but we vibe. We we we hang out. We'll figure it out and uh it'll all be fine.

All right, Maine's coming up now. Um, looking forward to having him up and yeah, like I said, I've been following his content for quite a while. Um, and it's been good to have it'll be good to have him on the stream and I have some fun questions for him, man. Okay, you bet. Yes man.

Hello, man. Appreciate you coming on. Hey, man. How are you? It's a bit of a setup here. Uh, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, it's been a it's been a hectic morning, hasn't it? Yeah, I know. Every morning I seem to wake up and I go on Walter Bloomberg and I figure out what kind of day it's about to be. What kind of day is it today then? I mean, kind of a shitty one, I guess. I don't know. Like, Trump is just, you know, tweeting out some mad stuff about what's going on in the Middle East. I I hate trading in these kind of environments where there's like tons of headline risk. So, I'm kind of just like hanging out. We'll see how FOMC resolves tomorrow and then maybe things chill out

a little bit. Yeah. Um, you you know what's funny is that while all the tariff stuff was happening, I had my uh I had my my my aunt and my cousin down from uh from Ontario and they were like they were in the worst headspace about Trump and America that I've ever heard anybody. And I just can't imagine that it's getting any better now to you know from your side of things, bro. Yeah. you know, like I I a lot of people are obsessed with what's going on on, you know, the global stage. And I get it.

We're on Twitter all day. Like we get this kind of constant doom loop of like just the worst information in the world all the time. I genuinely don't think humans were designed to be able to consume this kind of content from all over the planet all at the same time. You know what I mean? like you used to like have to wait and like you used to get the paper and you would see what was happening in your city and that was like the extent of your like knowledge and maybe there was one news channel that was like giving you delayed global events but like to know what's going on all over the world all the time is crazy to me but as a Canadian like my life hasn't really changed that much under Trump under Biden under Obama like it's basically

been the same like if I'm online I have periods where I think the world is ending and where I think it's uh where I think everything's, you know, sunshine and roses, but like day-to-day life is like not really that different. Yeah, man. I mean, we are seeing on Twitter real time how like you you're seeing these supersonic missiles boom and then you see the you see the markets react and then Trump does that on Truth Social and then that hap. It's just like it I try to zoom out like I I I've you know I was following your stuff in like late 16 early 17 all the way into 18. I think you kind of really started doing TA in like mid 2017 to to 18 and and you know I so so I've been in the space like

eightish years and dude like it's been harder to like zoom out in the last three months than it has been it I feel like since like 21. I've just been like like it's like tick watching man. Yeah, we can't lose the plot. Like Bitcoin's at 100 grand. Like, you know, like institutions are here. The government is pulling back any form of kind of regulation and scrutiny that there seem to have been. Coinbase is public. Other companies are going public. There's acquisitions happening last and right. Like, it's a good time to be in crypto.

Uh it's just like, yeah, if you're looking on these micro time frames, it seems like it's like doom and gloom. Uh and then you back to euphoria and back when in reality price hasn't really moved in the last month, dude. I mean it has for some assets, but you know for a lot of it it's been like altcoins bleeding, people getting upset about that and then you know wondering when all season kind of how h how that's going to play out which has been tough I think for a lot of people. Um, and then just kind of I mean look if if you haven't been holding Fartcoin or Hyperlquid or you know a couple others like you've been you've been kind of getting screwed.

Yeah, that's actually a much more interesting conversation in my opinion is like the altcoin cycle this goound so far has been quite difficult. Like the rotations between coins have been unbelievably fast. um where it used you remember that chart where it was like okay Bitcoin goes then large caps then mid caps then it was like secrets of crypto used to post all the time and like that used to be kind of like the order of operations and it just doesn't seem to be the case this goound it's like yeah if you're not in whiff then fartcoin then housecoin for 10 minutes and then this coin for like one day like you've missed every rotation I still hold out hope that

there is an alt season and it's when Bitcoin dominance rolls over which just hasn't happened yet. But there's a world where it just looks different because of how many coins there are now. there's just there's only so much money and if you look on things on the aggregate like maybe you know last cycle we had she and you know uh and Bonk and like you know some of these coins went to like tens of billions and it's like okay well nothing got there this cycle so maybe it hasn't happened yet but it's like okay but all of the AI coins combined went to 15 billion like if you take GOAT and Zerra and AI like if you add them all up on aggregate that kind of had an alt season. You know, there was the animal

meme alt season. So, I don't know, man. It's been uh it's been a funny one. But maybe maybe there's still a period of time where Bitcoin dominance will roll over and we'll get this fabled alt season we're waiting for. Well, so on that note, then I'm I'm curious what you think about um this kind of thesis around movement coins, right? Miad's been pushing SPX6900 to like absolutely no end. He is a he is non-stop in everybody's comments. just absolutely going ham. Um, do you think do you think like he's thinking about this in the right way? Like like is Miad going to be right in in in the sense that like you need this cult of people that don't care about selling you orient around one one token and this is like this is the the

way to, you know, outperform asset dispersion or is Mira just kind of lost the plot? I mean, I think his wallet's at 55 million right now. So, I don't know if I'm the right maybe maybe right now he seems right. So, I have a few thoughts on Morad. Um, number one, if I held a coin, there's no better bag worker in the game right now than Morad. I mean, he's on TikTok. Everywhere I go, I see that slick back hair and he's like, "World War II is coming. This is why you need to buy memecoins." Like, that's the next video that's coming from him, I'm sure. Um, you know, AI is going to take your job. That's why you need to buy this meme coin that I specifically own 2% of. Um, I think you've got to

take it with a grain of salt because one, the coins that he is the biggest proponent of, he owns a ton of it and his wallet is tracked. If he started to, he's like, "No one's going to sell." It's like, "Buddy, if you sold a single coin, everyone would sell. Like, they are all tracking your wallet." And I guarantee a bunch of people are copy trading him to the point where if he sold any of his allocations there. So, so, so to summarize, I guess will he be right? Maybe. You will never make money if you don't sell. So, as much as the idea of like you want to be in the coin that they have the dieh hard holders, great because those are the people you need to exit into cuz you don't make any money until you cash out eventually.

Like you have to at some point cash out. So, there there's something to be said there. Um, you know, it is a cult. I I get that. But like I think what people get confused is like it's going to go up forever. It isn't. Nothing has. Not even Bitcoin goes up forever. Like it has its bare market. So as long as you can be like, "Hey, I'm going to play this narrative. It's got a strong community." Sure. I'm on the complete opposite camp. I'm in the believe in nothing camp. Um I'm a profit maxi. So we're just dirically opposed there. But I mean right now when he's right he looks like a genius. And then when he's wrong he looks like, you know, an idiot. So, uh, as long as you're like, "Hey, I'm here for the ride, but I realistically know I

have to sell at some point, you know, there's some value." And if you're going to ride his coattails, I mean, it's working good right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just think that like the story that he tells is particularly compelling for people. Uh, but it's like the like the call to action for buy the memecoin is, you know, I mean, that is what it is. But I I think that in the context of uh young people uh being screwed out by the older generation, AI, etc., like it's a very believable story. It's like the Roaring Kitty, right? Like it's like, hey, like this is sticking it to the man. But if you actually do the research, a lot of people lost money on GME. Like most people didn't make money because they never sold. like they

believed forever and then you know eventually you know you get cooked. So as long as you're willing to take profit at some point I think it is and and I don't disagree with his message like the first half of his videos I'm locked in. I'm like yeah dude AI is coming like the the wealth inequality gap is growing. It's going to be harder to have social mobility and the solution is to buy this memecoin. That's where I'm like, "Okay, well, maybe maybe it's like I should get a skill that can't be replaced by AI or maybe I should, you know, find ways to diversify my income and make more money, but or sure, put it all in a memecoin."

All right. The other kind of main character now is uh is Gainy, who's been getting bombed in the shelters. I'm curious like what your relationship with with Gainy is and how would you characterize his approach to trading versus somebody like uh like like Anom. So I I've known Gainy for a long time. Uh I consider us friends. We've hung out in person several times and um he's so funny because like Gainy to me is like CT lore because he's been around for so long. Like there's been different periods of time where he was the main character. he had his like roll bit like evil gambling saga, you know, and now he's the hairy armed guy who was on

streaming on Pump Fun and now he's that same hairyard guy streaming on Pump Fun who happens to be living in a war zone. Um, so I just think it's obviously, God willing, he's okay and and and nothing happens to him. That would be terrible. Uh, but it is like it is kind of funny in the in the worst kind of way. And he gets it, too. He's playing into it. It's not like he's not aware. He's the one, you know, leaning into it as he should. I mean, it's he can't leave. So, I mean, he might as well lean into it and stream from the shelter, I guess. Um, but I don't even know how much Gainy trades anymore to be honest with you. Like, Gainy came up around the same time as me couple cycles ago, heavy on the leverage trading. Um, but I don't think he trades

very much anymore. I think he's much more of a uh I know he does angel investing now. Um, but uh I don't think he's like super actively trading whereas like Anom kind of had this meteoric rise. Like I've known Anson for a long time and we used to chat charts like a lot back in the day and uh he learned some stuff from me and he used to post these like really thoughtful um yeah I remember chart writeups being like here's my like monthly weekly daily 4hour breakdown of all these different charts and he still does that occasionally but he became the memecoin guy right and I think it started kind of with whiff and he's become I mean met up

with Kanye I mean it's They're both like become kind of famous for different reasons and main characters for different reasons, but I mean I think Anom's a great guy. We're friends as well. Um I think he gets a bad rep like for how much terrible stuff and scammy stuff goes on in the memecoin space with some of these like FNF groups like the Hayden Davises of the world. these guys who buy into a coin and are dumping on the sidewalls to think Anom is this like big bad evil guy cuz he just like would tweet out a coin that he liked and he probably invested in. I I the hate on Anom went a little bit too hard, but it's been very funny to see

them both kind of have their main characters journeys this cycle. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. I mean, it's it's funny from from the lens of seeing the characters develop for like six, seven years versus if you just came into the space in the last like two, three, or even just in the last year or so, you you don't really have the same perspective, right? And it's just I don't know. It's it's funny. We've lost lore. I know, right? Like there's guys who like don't even post him or like people don't even know who Angelo was. People think Kobe is like some washed up just like dude who posts. I'm like, you don't even know, man. Like, you don't even know what you're missing. But there's also like I'm a big fan of some of the new guys. Like, I love Thread Guy. I think Thread Guy is awesome for

the space. And, you know, as much as some people like to hate on like Frank the Gods and Thread Guy and Rasmer and all these guys, I'm like, dude, these are, you got to remember, I'm gonna be 35 soon. Like, these are the new this is the new generation, man. We're old now. We're washed up, bro. Dude, I think the entire age of of crypto people is just obviously as time passes, but it's just progressively getting getting to be a bit a bit older. Like the entire indust, right? And like that's who these guys speak to and I kind of forget now. It's like, oh, I'm not that like you know, I don't know how old you are, but like the biggest thing for me was, you know, when you like watch a movie or you leave a review on something, it asks you to

select your age group. I'm now in like the 34 to 40 plus group. Whereas before it's like, okay, you're between like 19 and 30 or whatever it was. I'm like, damn, I'm now in like the old man group. It's kind of sad. Yeah, I'm still in the Zoomer group. But, you know, Oh, you're so lucky. It It's been a long run. Enjoy it while it lasts, bro. It ends so fast. I want to uh understand how you started breakout because from what from my perspective you were just kind of uh yeah I said you Sherpa uh Panama some of those guys were crushing it on leverage trading back in the day and like I used to that's how I started. I just spun up a bit account. I was just like dude I'm gonna I'm gonna rip it. It didn't work out. Um but uh that that was

kind of my perception and then you you rolled out into Breakout which now a prop firm it has execution. you can bring traders in. May m maybe just like what's the lore there and then I'm curious some of the like some of the craziest stories that you've had from traders there. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So, um, Breakout we launched a little over two years ago. Um, this wasn't a new business model. So, prop firms have existed in Tradfi for a very long time. Uh, but the model got brought online like six to seven years ago. There's a couple big prop firms like FTMO and Topstep where you could trade futures or forex. And the idea here is you're leveraging someone else's money. That's

kind of the TLDDR. And I used to trade on FTMO back in the day because in Canada here at least, you couldn't open a brokerage account without 25K. Um, and I didn't have 25 grand at the time all these years ago to open that account. Uh, but with a prop firm, I could trade a $25,000 account for like a couple hundred bucks. And so I knew what prop firms were from back then. And then over the last like 3, four years, it's proliferated massively where all of these prop account proped up. Uh, and people are there's a whole section of Twitter that is like prop Twitter. Like there's crypto Twitter, there's prop Twitter. And I caught wind of it and I'm like, "Oh, damn." Like this is like very interesting. I remember trading a prop

firm. I get it because it's leverage really. like these guys like, "Hey, I managed 200 grand, but it's not my money, but if I make 10%, I make 20 grand." Uh, and I was like, "I wonder if someone's doing this for crypto." That's really how it started. And I did some research, and I just found that there was no real option out there for someone who wanted the advantages of prop, which is access to capital. Um, but they wanted to uh have all of the upside of trading on a centralized exchange. So, some of these prop companies offered crypto, but it wasn't like real crypto.

So, like the spread on Bitcoin might be 200 bucks because it's an afterthought. Whereas, I'm like, listen, if you're trading on Bybit or Blow Fin or whatever, like the spread is pennies. Like, it's not $100. That's unsustainable. And they offered Bitcoin and Litecoin and XRP. It's like, okay, people want to trade Fartcoin. You know what I mean? They don't want to just trade the majors. So that's what we set out to do is I wanted to bring this kind of novel unique trading product uh where we're not a centralized exchange. We're not a DEX. We're a completely different product. Um but it's a very good tool for one if you're a good trader. Props fantastic because you're le it's leverage. You can get a 100k account for

a,000 bucks. We offer 5x leverage on Bitcoin and ETH. So for a,000 bucks, if you pass your valuation, you can open a half million position and you paid $1,000 to get to that point. So the riskreward, the leverage is there. For a beginner trader, this is a really good tool where if you're not quite ready to put your paycheck on the exchange and get liquidated, but you're beyond paper trading. So you're like, "Okay, I want to have some skin in the game, but I'm not necessarily ready to put five grand on buy bit where you stand to potentially lose that entire five grand." With us, a five grand account is 60 bucks. So if you blow that account up, you've lost $60 instead of the entire in the entire paycheck, right? So

uh we we we went out, we built this, uh and uh it's been cra crazy meteor meteoric rise. Like I don't even think we're that well known um on crypto Twitter even really yet. Like we've been doing our thing. Obviously having my brand behind it has brought up a lot of notoriety and kind of initial, you know, market awareness, but I still don't think crypto Twitter fully understands what prop is and how crazy it could be. I mean, we've had guys who have um you know, taken out 100k, like we've paid them out 100 grand, they paid $1,000 to get that account. That's like memecoin levels of ROI. Um, we've had people who have run up like we have a guy who I

think longed Bitcoin at 60K and just sat in that trade for three months and then closed it when Bitcoin hit 100K and took a huge payout. Um, so we have a lot of traders who are like absolutely crushing. And uh, it's fun to see like when we're we're we're crypto natives. It's me, it's Crypto Cred, it's Abe Trade. So like when Trumpcoin came out, we added it immediately. Um when you know Chill House was popular, you could trade Chill House. And then when Chill House died, you know, we took it off. But like we we wanted to keep our ear to the street, say, "Hey, not only can you trade with Prop Capital, but you could be trading the stuff that is on trend right now." Uh and it's been a lot of fun, man. It's been a completely

different journey running a business as opposed to just trading full-time. Y uh and you know, it's been a blast. We've we've grown like crazy. We're continuing to grow and I think we're going to see a lot more of uh people start to choose prop. It's just another option. It's not meant to replace hyperlquid or buy bit. It's a completely different tool way for you to get access to money. Yeah, man. I mean, it was very popular in in the forex days when I was in university. I had a couple buddies who did that and they did very well. And now that you bring it up, I I yeah, I mean, I have not heard of anything like this in crypto prior to, you know, seeing what you guys were doing. So, I think it's definitely a gap in the market. I also resonate with the fact that, you know, I

spend I spend maybe 5% of my time on the markets, right? I just have like my core positions and 95% when I'm working on the business. And it's definitely a whole different headsp space. Um, it's like it's like it's like when you're when you're um when you're trading, you're like single. you're like, you know, you're you're just trying to, you know, flip things, have fun, do whatever, make make money. And then on the business, it's like you're in a relationship. It's like every day you you're waking up and you're committing to this one thing, single asset, uh single uh kind of vision. And and I mean, perhaps that's not that's not the easiest analogy, but you know, I think you pick up also not that instant gratification, right, where it's like you make a trade, you make money. Like business things you're doing today might

not pay off for like a year. Yeah. Um, so, uh, but it's a lot of fun and I I I recommend everyone in crypto like has multiple sources of income. Like, especially once you're in this for a very long time. Like, first of all, most people are going to lose money trading. Like, let's be honest. Um, you're better off. I would have way more money if I just held all the Bitcoin that I had. Dude, I see that the same thing. Like, it's disgusting. I'm like, "Oh, let me try and outperform the greatest performing asset of all time. That seems like a really good idea." Um but uh like you got to diversify, right? And and running a business and being an entrepreneur is is one way to do that. Like trading is a business. Uh I have Breakout as a business. My brand

is a business. And um there's so many things that you can do in this space and it's so much fun. And that's why I tell people I'm like you, dude, you got to start posting. Like people always ask me, I'm like, dude, just start posting. Like you followed me back in the day. I had I was live streaming to three people. Now I'm live streaming to 3,000. like and it just started cuz I just started posting and by building that brand obviously I traded but I was able to do things like launch breakout which was successful because of my brand and so you got to be willing to get out there and create content and you know like say what you're going to say and ignore all the people making fun of your I think normalsized neck and uh you know just post your stuff. Oh man, a couple

more things for you on the market side of things and some of your um preferred platforms and such. Uh one on the on the market side, obviously uh Hyperliquid and Fardcoin have been the leaders in in terms of uh per you know just asset appreciation over the last six eight months. Um do you think Hype or Fardcoin has more room to run from now until the end of the year? That's a good question. Um, I'm gonna say Fartcoin. Um, simply because can't take it seriously, dude. I know, dude. I So, like we have uh Fartcoin has been the top traded asset at breakout for the last three months.

It's like one of the top five. It's like Bitcoin, Ethereum, Salana, then it's like Hype, Fartcoin are usually like four and five like and so like in our investor updates, we have to put in that Fartcoin is like a like highly it's it's just the most hilarious thing. This is a real industry, but it's it's unbelievable. So, I I think Fartcoin for a few reasons. One, I don't think we've had a Bitcoin dominance pullback yet, like an actual correction there that could lead to an alt season. And two, I think a large part of the hype trade is is like hype's at what 40 billion. Um, let's assume that the I think Binance maybe, let's call B&B 500 billion or

whatever. That's kind of accurately priced. I'm not saying hype can't go up more, but Hype right now makes up for about 10% of Per's OI relative to like Binance. Um, so I think that, you know, 40 to50 billion valuation for hype makes a lot of sense. Um, can it go higher? Of course. Long-term, hype is here to stay. Hype is a business. The buyback mechanic is genius. It's you're betting on the exchange making money and printing. The same way if you own BNB, you're betting on CZ and Binance being successful. And if you look at BNB, like it's had bare markets, but it's outperformed Bitcoin and most altcoins. I think Hype fits

really well as a proxy to that. But I think Fartcoin, just because it has so much goddamn mind share, could have one of those crazy runs where it goes from like whatever it's at now, a buck, alt season happens, it goes to 10, and then it's gone forever. It's a fart in the wind. So no I I mean I think uh with with bull runs and with fundamentals comes uh um ceilings and in bare in bare markets you get floors for those assets but if there is no fundamentals there's theoretically not a ceiling which I think is silly to actually say but that's in practice how this has has consistently played out with every sort of bull run. Yeah.

People want alt season. The thing about alt season it happens at the end. Yeah. Exactly. Everyone's like I want it I want it. as like if you want it, like this is the harbinger of doom. Like this is right before everything implodes. We get like a silly alt season where things go nuts for like 6 weeks and I'm just not quite ready. I'm I'm I'm hoping the four-year cycle sticks and that we've got until, you know, December, November, December of this year. That's kind of what I'm hoping. So, got you. All right, last couple questions for you, buddy. Um, other than yourself, who are the most locked in traders on the timeline right now, is there anybody that you're really getting alpha from or that you're enjoying their charts and have a good hit rate? Yeah.

Yeah, there's a few. So, I always love LMA. LMA's one of my boys. I think he's one of the best. Uh, I think Cold Blood Schiller is also an absolute killer. Zoran, after, you know, having his blow up not that long ago, Zoran is when Zoran's dialed, he's dialed. Um, so I love watching Zoran's charts. Uh, Trader Mercury, I think, is another one who's really good high time frame kind of guy. U, but he just posted that he's only 25 and now I like him less. I was like, "Dude, I thought you were older. Thought you were so wise and old, all these young guns." Um, obviously I like Dr. Axe, Axiius Capital. I think he's one of not as many trading takes, but I think he's one of my favorite pages uh to watch. And uh listen, the OG, bro, Donald, love him or hate him, the German

prick, self-proclaimed, I don't call him that. that he calls himself a prick. Uh, but Donald is one of the best traders on the platform and Credible Crypto, another fantastic trader. So, which one of those has the best looking charts? And who has the worst looking charts? Oh gosh, that's easy. Credible crypto has the worst because he uses Elliot wave and I'm just a hater even though I know it works. Um, and uh I think Don Alt's charts are clean, man. just like couple lines, couple boxes, you know, and uh yeah, he he he's an OG. Clean charts. I like how he like how he operates, man. I appreciate your time, man, and for coming out. Um I hope you have a good rest of your day. We got FOMC tomorrow.

Um any thoughts on on on uh kind of positioning for that? I think I think I think positioning into it is always a little bit dicey. Um but no news is good news. like I don't think we're expecting rate cuts. So, as long as there's not something that's like super super bearish in the way that you know, Pal is speaking, I think that's probably for the best. Um, but like again, I I just like to me this is as low probability of conditions as you can get is FLMC tomorrow and at any point Israel and Iran could, you know, bomb each other out of existence. Yeah. Uh sometimes it's better out just zooming out and be like, "Okay, the high time frame chart still looks really good. Let's not get

chopped up in this kind of low time frame noise. Uh I think is gun to my head. If you get a sweep under 100K on Bitcoin, I think that might be a buy. Beauty." All right, man. See you soon, man. Appreciate you coming on. Appreciate it, man. Have a good one. Be easy. Peace. All right. Um that was a fun segment. I uh don't spend that much time talking to leverage traders in the in the liquid markets also. Yeah, I've just been following Maine and those guys for for quite a while. have been come have grown to become pretty good friends with Sherpa and Panama and Darden and some of those guys and so um they just have a completely different well first of all their bankroll is just is just you know it's evident that they've been around

for three cycles and that they mastered the leverage trading game and then second is they just have a different perspective on the markets and on kind of how they think about uh what's happening in the space. So yeah, that is that. Up next, we got Bobby from Coin Fund. Uh a prolific panel moderator amongst many other talents. Uh so we'll get him up here and let's have a good chat. What's up, Bobby? How are you, man? How's it going, Andy? Uh excited to be on. Love what you guys are doing with the show. Yeah, I appreciate it, man. Things are good. Things are good. I haven't seen the sun in a couple days, though. I've been in New York. I don't know if you're here, but it's been pretty rough. Yeah, the cloud cover is killing me. We uh we got a taste of summer and now we've we've regressed for

sure. Are you uh are you coming to the permissionless festivities next week? I will be around permissionless. Uh always uh one of the better conferences of the year, I think. So, I'm super excited for it. Nice. Yeah, I'm stoked. I think uh it should be good. And then I think a lot of people are going to be packing up and going to ECC as well. Um which should be fun as well. And uh I was uh checking the weather forecast. That's going to be a beautiful time out there. So, yeah, we're we're all going to be coming back. Hopefully, markets are up and we're all looking a little tan. How about that? Yeah, man. All right. Well, I wanted to just get some of your insights from your latest uh kind of thesises, thoughts um around a couple general things that have been trending in the space. One being revenue, pumpf

fun. Um just kind of like some of your work at Coin Fund as well. Um but let's just start on the revenue side. So, I put out a tweet saying uh kind of jokingly, half jokingly, how how how long is this revenue meta going to last? You know, less than three months, less than six months, less than a year, less than two years. It was pretty much barbel. It was either like, Andy, you're an idiot. Like, this is this is what every business has been built on for entirety of the world, or like, oh, this is just a fad, blah blah blah. And so from the venture perspective, I imagine the way that you're looking at uh companies over the last six to nine months uh has shifted as a result of the administration, you know, being Trump and being kind of a bit more flexible

with with regards to things like like tokconomics and of course just like the success of Hyperlid and how that model has been has been kind of just working. So maybe just uh a six to nine month kind of recap as to like all right what you were seeing from founders you know late last year into now this year and kind of how your mental model for assessing you know the profitability or the longevity of some of these um you know onchain businesses are uh just kind of curious how you're thinking about it yeah let's talk about revenue um I think it's a really interesting question um most of the people who I think have the conversation about revenue kind of overgeneral generalized I say I would

say because in crypto we've got all different kinds of assets there's not just like kind of an equity company that is you know generating ARR and you kind of value it that way um we also have this whole other classes of of assets called layer ones um and most of them aren't like particularly revenue generating and uh as a matter of fact it would be very detrimental to them if they were clipping massive amounts of fees on a platform that's supposed to be like very high throughput and you know support all all kinds of innovation. Um so for this class of tokens like I I don't think that the revenue meta will will ever kind of be a factor for them and you're going to continue to see uh you know valuation that revolves around you know a premium and you know potential you know developer uh

developer growth. Um and then you kind of move into the middle ground between L1s and applications is that's kind of where Hyperlid falls. you have this kind of like app uh L1 kind of structure where the the revenue of the application on on that L1 actually does matter because that's kind of like what you're betting on. You're not you're not betting on open innovation uh like you are in the L1 model. Um so for applications and for for app chains like Hyperlid, I'm super excited to see that the revenue meta like coming into play. um you know for for a long time I guess you could call it like growth mode like when a startup is in the ear like early stages you know there's that hilarious Silicon Valley quote where he's like don't show revenue like it's bearish once you start showing revenue they're

going to ask how much and maybe we're at that point maybe it's like okay you know there are enough successful applications out there that we now want to see the revenue that you can actually produce and you know I was uh poking around like unis swap the other day they're they're talking about the uh the fee switch again and kind of I think as you start see start to see some applications come to maturity, uh you'll you'll start to see pressure from the market to uh to show revenue to um you know, funnel that revenue back to token holders. And uh you know, you mentioned kind of the regulatory framework briefly. It it in this industry, it's all tied together, right? Um you know, the other reason not to show revenue in the past is you don't want to look like a security and uh

Gendler will come after you. So now we're starting to see some more kind of openness to different models. um from from the regulators in the US at least. Um so I think it's it's kind of becoming a perfect storm where it might be the time where we start to see kind of applications that can show revenue and and try to pass that back to token holders and I think that's really exciting because whereas in the past uh you know a lot of the you know liquid market investors who've got involved with some of these tokens are betting on the future and that's great right big upside for people who bet far in the future. Um, but you're never going to see people like pile in in like real meaningful size like you know outside of crypto like the hedge fund managers on Wall Street piling into a token like

hype. You're only going to see that if you have real like substantiated uh kind of growth uh which I think revenue is the best way to to kind of speak of. Um so I'm excited. I think for those who can, it'll remain a meta for quite some time and uh you know, we'll have to see uh how how deep it really can go, if it can expand expand to L1's or not. Um you know, we'll have to see. Yeah. Uh I mean I think one interesting point that you brought up is with regards to kind of like the timing of basically either turning on a fee switch you call like launching revenue but I think a lot of these networks have you know whether they don't have a moat or not a defensible enough one such that if they were to charge or were to turn on the

fee switch that they would lose customers. Perhaps that's the case in some of the um instances but not in all of them. Um but you know anyhow with that kind of framing it begs the question of like as a as a founder as a protocol builder as a as somebody running a business you know I is there a framework that that that can be adapted that you should use to know when to turn that on like like like is is there a a user count or is there a metric or is there a way to think about like when is it when is it you've already achieved enough network effects and adoption that it's not too early to kind of, you know, turn that on and potentially suffer some, you know, shortterm, uh, you know, variance in your in your customers, but

long term be able to then run a business, right? I think that's a hard question to to answer. Yeah. And super uh, insightful that you're asking it because I think um, you know, this is the kind of coaching that that founders that we work with need for sure. Um, they want to have this conversation. Um and I think the answer is is definitely not that you know turning on revenue switches and monetizing the business that you built right now makes sense for everyone. um the way that you assess that um I I you know sorry to be generalized but like it has to bea case by case basis right of course um you know for some businesses uh you know there are clear modes that you kind of acrewue early on right um you know for for business for let's go very simple

like with a DEX you know you have a liquidity mode right uh when you are able to you get pools with more liquidity you have less slippage therefore a better experience and and you like very quickly kind develop that mode. Um, so for businesses like that, I think it makes sense to kind of relatively early kind of turn on those fee switches. Um, I can think of, you know, other examples where it may not make as much sense. um you know highly competitive things like for example uh when I think about interoperability um I would say that that is a very cutthroat industry and um if you start if you start jacking up fees uh to move around capital throughout the ecosystem I think you're going to very quickly bleed market share

um so just like thinking critically about uh you know what your actual like defensible modes are and and whether or not you can kind of use that to generate revenue for your token holders because the other kind of flip side of this coin is um you know we're not just turning on revenue for the sake of kind of getting rich here. Um there's actually like a really interesting flywheel of you know we're talking about hype. If if hype or hype turning on uh kind of revenue and funneling it back to token holders also like kind of empowers or kind of enriches their community and creates more of a a token mode around it. So there's actually a different like a secondary layer to to moes and monetization in crypto that um I think is probably a little bit underexplored

and and novel to to kind of traditional tech. Um, so yeah, just coming into this conversation with your investors and your adviserss. Um, and being like really thoughtful about kind of what you have the leverage to do and there and then kind of how can you use that to further accelerate the the the business that you're running and uh kind of enrich the the community that you created is is I think the right approach. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. It's been uh it it's funny how I think with the admin and hype and just like this this trend like the entire way that I think people in the space are thinking has changed for like for the better. I I saw a tweet that was like what if these two things didn't happen then what you know like and I mean look I mean maybe it's also

leading to less of the L1 premium and maybe it's not so easy anymore and maybe like you know but it it shows the maturation of the industry as a as a whole. Yeah. I I'd be really interested to do a little like postmortem and try to like really deeply understand like when this change in sentiment did happen. Yeah. But I think we saw it for like a really long time. Um I think back to like oh gosh like alt layer and manta launching and kind of like kicking off the the lowflat high FTV meta. Yeah. Um and from there I think that was probably the start of when people started to just get more critical about valuations of these tokens. like maybe it's it doesn't make sense for me to buy into um who am I going to pick on? I

don't know like Polka Dot at 100 bill on ICO day or whatever, you know. Um and maybe I want to, you know, feel a little bit more substantiated comfort in the assets that I'm holding. Um so you had that kind of high float or lowflat high FTV meta and then you know a few you know basically pump and hype came in and said like okay look at us like we can make you feel even better about the asset you own. And I think that's like really healthy competition to like keep dragging forward into the future. So, u maybe one day I'll do that analysis and we can chop it up here. All right. So, pump. You brought up Pump. I I want to talk Pump. I' I've been asking friends uh VCs, funds, liquid guys, uh what their thoughts are. Not financial

advice, Bobby's opinions, not Coin Funds opinions. Um bullish or bearish pump at four bill. Like what's the what's the right way to think about that ICO, that token? trading up a little bit um in pre-market. Um but no, I think this kind of plays right into the conversation we were just having. um you know if you believe in so right in like traditional tech we talk about like ARR and like you know ARR is more valuable or like annualized revenue or recurring annualized recurring revenue is more valuable to investors than kind of one-off revenue because it's going to come back over 30 years and you can kind of recoup uh the value of your investment over time. Um, so

it's very clear already that that Pump is a revenue generating entity and is able to do so like at an extremely high clip and that should make you as an investor super excited. Um, however, like it it stands to it's up to each individual investor to decide whether or not like this is going to be recurring revenue in the future. And I think that's like basically what it comes down for for me. If you if you again not financial advice, but if you came to me and said that this company is is generating, you know, 500 plus million in revenue over its short lifespan, it's going to continue to do that in the future, I'd be very excited about owning that asset. But yeah, it is do your own research and think about whether or not you think that's the case. And I think that's kind of how you make the call

there. All right. So, a different uh asset thesis that I thought was particularly interesting here was around world. So your uh CEO Jake put out this uh either like a post or a tweet uh stating that um basically he thinks that uh the idea behind world is that if you can widely distribute a digital asset, you can build a crypto that's bigger and more valuable than Bitcoin. I mean I assume you could insert anything here. Uh while it has been nearly two years since I made this claim, it may only be one or two years before World achieves this milestone. While Bitcoin has 750,000 daily active users, world has accumulated 1.7 million daily active users, over two times the largest cryptocurrency by market cap thanks to its wide wide range of mini apps across

gaming, payments, and defy. Um, is worldcoin going to be bigger than Bitcoin? is that like what is ex explain this kind of like daily active user or perhaps like this like metap's law like thinking around why why this thesis applies uh to to world and just in general that why the amount of users matters for crypto assets yeah um super high level here right for this thesis there there's actually like um I would argue that there's like three different thesis thesis as to like why I and why coin on loves world. Uh super excited about the project. I've been uh back to back in 2020 and have continued to reunderite the the project in the team.

So um that's kind of my my preface. Um you you got to love that. But from a super high level, right, we're talking about like why does the wide distribution of the world token uh make it interesting, right? Um and I think you know you have to have a little bit of a conversation about like what is a currency and what makes a currency value valuable to uh have that conversation, right? There's this kind of famous like Warren Buffett clip of him being of him saying like if I owned all of the Bitcoin in the world, it would be worth absolutely nothing to me. And I think that is like very true, right? Uh the Bitcoin is only valuable if it's kind of widely distributed and therefore useful to me in, you know, transacting with others. Um so the eyeballs and verify the identities. Uh you know, there's a

number of ways to do that at this point in the company's life cycle outside of just scanning eyeballs. um but they're hellbent on on getting as many verified humans as possible onto this network and with that you know so I think we're at 13 million plus um you know eyeball scanned users and and well over I think 26 27 million of uh you know alternatively verified users and you know as they you know spend the capital that they've uh you know taken in from venture capital and and liquid markets to to on board as much of the world as possible you have this really interesting setup where world becomes this, you know, very useful asset for transacting value. And then you kind of add on uh, you know, two or three other thesis about like in the age of AI, what

does it mean to have um, you know, concrete knowledge of of who is a human and who is not and what can what are all like it's a totally different design design space than we've ever seen before. And I'll tell you like briefly like that's my favorite part about investing is like when when something brings a new design space that it like developers can just kind of try things with like one silly example is like no fees for humans on the world chain like that's something that you couldn't try before but you know you introduced this new techn technological substrate and on top of that let's see what we can build.

So, um, from the currencies perspective, you know, they're going to go out and they're going to get 300 million. They're going to get hopefully 500 million to a billion people verified on this network. Every one of those people is going to have world in their wallet. Um, just based on kind of like the airdrop onboarding strategy that they've employed. Um, and from there, they're going to trans transact, which is going to create, you know, an ecosystem for applications, for trading apps, um, and, you know, a strong distribution through their front app store. So, a lot of exciting things going on in the world ecosystem. Happy to dive into any of those threads uh deeper, but I think that's the lay of the land. Yeah, man. I mean, looking at some of the investments that some of the larger uh funds in the space have done and into world has also

been particularly compelling and then also just Sam uh Alman being there from the early days, right? And I don't think people really, you know, thought about how big Open AI was going to be back then and kind of like the association and now it's very clear. So that's nice. I mean, yeah, path to tendencies are very uh are a very unique thing that I've learned in crypto investing specifically. Like, you know, if if just one thing happens, the investment goes great or poorly and just a a result of a of a consequential action in time that it's just like it just happened, right?

And and this being this project being Sam's brainchild makes a ton of sense because like in 2020, I'm not sure how many people were underwriting like AGI within this decade. And now I would say that a lot of people are thinking that AGI is coming in this decade. So you know that's I mean that's that's amazing. That's what we look for in founders. That's what drives the industry forward is folks like that being able to see around the corner and um you know double down on their convictions and uh you know build for that future. So I think that's basically what I see worldcoin or world as is uh you know Sam's Sam and team's conviction in uh you know the future of the world being you know agentic and and driven by AI um and

building the necessary tooling to make that you know utopian instead of dystopian. Yeah. A couple quick ones for you about Coin Fund. Uh I'm curious what some of the better projects and biggest wins have been. Um, and then you know if there's a through line that we can draw as to like what these had in common, whether it's founders or product market fit, like what are some of the biggest wins and you know if there's if there's a couple things they can tie into what each of these projects or protocols or businesses had in common uh I think that'd be pretty insightful. Yeah. Um so some projects that you know have have so Coin Fund has been around since uh since 2015. Uh we're coming up on a 10y year anniversary. So obviously um a

storied past with with a bunch of winners um some some to highlight and maybe try to draw a through line too. Um so I would say like one way to kind of be successful in the venture industry in crypto is is like to be early. Um and I think uh you know in that vein um you know you could talk about worldcoin again. Um another another one that we like to talk about is uh kind of the telegram ton ecosystem. um very early there. Um so Stanfi is kind of the the major decks in the TANA ecosystem and that's been you know a great great team great performer for us. Um the other so like another area that I think we were early in is um you know just away from

kind of world more just like decentralized AI. Um I think you know Jake put out a a blog post I think you know what is it 2025 so like two and a half maybe three years ago now. um outlining his kind of vision for uh decentralized AI at a time where like everyone else was saying that basically this is uh inefficient and uh you'll always see centralized AI kind of win out. Um so in in that space you know we've made investments in Plurales Prime Intellect Jensen um Pearl who's who's doing more on the data side. So like a real ecosystem uh from just being early to that thesis. Um and then you know in the I I'm really excited about Gzilla. Um I think they're one of the

big uh gaming winners in crypto over the last couple years. Um and then yeah maybe like superstate some of the RD RWA folks. Y um so a wide breath obviously uh if I try to draw a line between them um like I said you can you can be early to these uh thesis. Uh I think another one is distribution. Um, for a long time, uh, builders in crypto kind of ignored distribution, um, and thought like, you know, just launch my application on Ethereum and and a little front end will do the trick. Um, and now we're seeing like Gzilla, for example, uh, got got an integration with like PlayStation or PlayStation, Xbox. So, like they're on

major consoles for the first time and that's like amazing. Um, you've got, uh, the ton ecosystem is all about distribution, right? we've got, you know, more users than any other application in crypto on on Telegram and kind of converting those into transacting crypto users is really exciting thesis. Um and then yeah maybe the last thread is um seeing a lot of seeing a maturation of the industry to the point where um you know we're seeing founders with expertise from external areas come into crypto and crypto is becoming consumable and like usable enough that crypto is a tool set for them. Um and these types of founders I'm seeing uh to do I'm seeing them do

extremely well. Um so you know the world team for example falls into that bucket. Uh you know the Gzilla gaming team um you know they're AAA game developers first uh and then come and like use the superpowers of crypto to supercharge their outcomes. Um and same with yeah some of the the people at with their trady experience. So liking that thread of founders um like combining outside expertise with you know deep crypto understanding is something that I think I've been looking for recently. So, I assume you haven't been spending much time in the memecoin trenches then.

Personal time. Personal time doesn't fit uh the venture the the 10-year venture strategy for me. Um but uh yeah, personally I it's it's an interesting place to, you know, experience culture and mess around with friends. Yeah. And there's also some good lessons in me in the Salana trenches. Absolutely. Um me, you know, super interesting infrastructure problem that I've been looking at for many years. So um stress testing stress testing the in infrastructure of blockchains is is something that's very valuable and and maybe one of the you know the the best kind of side effects that's come out of the meme memecoin craze for the last uh two or three years. Bobby have a great rest of your day. I appreciate you

joining. We'll see you next week on the ground at Permissionless and around and uh grab a beer or something, man. Awesome. Excited to see you in person and thanks for having me on. Yes, sir. Always a pleasure, brother. Speak soon. Cheers. Cheers, man. All right, guys. Uh that's that's the stream for today. We had a little bit of a mishap there in the beginning, but all good in in the hood. Covered some good topics. Uh the the world did not fall apart while we were on. Uh markets bouncing back a bit. I think people are a bit more calm. Um Trader Main was great. Bobby was great. I really enjoyed that one. A bit shorter, uh but really enjoyed it. So, thank you guys for coming. We'll see you on Thursday. We have a full uh setup on Thursday. And as

always guys, thank you for watching the Rollup TV. See you soon.