Rollup TV: Thursday, October 2nd

Transcript

Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat. Heat.

[Music] Hey, hey, [Music] hey.

[Music] Heat [Music] Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. N. [Applause] [Music] Yes, sir. October. Happy October, Rob.

Happy October, brother. >> Happy October. Good to see you. Good to see you. >> It's good to be home. >> Um, is it >> quite the Asian tour, >> say that? 26-hour travel yesterday. >> Um, just running on pure good vibes and green candles. >> Good vibes and green candles. Arthur Haye said he was like at a dinner with Naval and um Naval said to buy Zcash, so he bought a bunch of Zcash and now it's up a ton. I don't know why people were excited about Zcash because it's privacy and people are stoked on it now. It's kind of interesting. Well, yo, let's get some music going, brother. Brother,

brother, brother. And um yeah, Rob, welcome back, dude. Thank you, brother. Feels good. I know there's tons of uh tons of action still happening in Singapore, but uh as you probably saw, we got in, took care of business, and got out. >> Yeah, you guys did indeed. You did indeed. I'm on the base app, guys. I'm [ __ ] around trying to uh see. I'm trying to control the stream. Looks like I got some funding uh from somebody or something. I'm not exactly sure what that means, >> but let me pull up the stream and make sure we're we're we're ripping there.

>> And then we're ripping. >> And then we got to make sure that it's live. We got a new updated plugin. Okay, looks good to me. >> Look at that. Control the stream featured app on bass. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. It is. Well, guys, today we have Austin Federa from0ero. Um, I'm going to go ahead and play the chat or play what I see in the um in their mainet announcement. Shout out to brother Victor Uptoberg GM GM brother GM GM GM GM GM GM. If you guys are in the YouTube chat, we are active and reading the chat. Shout out to you guys. It's zero mainet day. I'm going to link that up uh throw that thing on on the screen here in a sec. So, Leo, get ready for

that one. And yeah, we can talk about double zero before Austin comes on. I think he's basically ready to come on in five m fiveish minutes. So, pulling this up now. One sec, guys. A new faster internet is here. Sounds bullish huh? >> Austin is literally rebuilding the internet from the ground up. Pretty. >> Is that right? >> Is that right, Rob? >> How familiar are you with zero? All right, here we go. Leo, let's throw the screen up.

Do you know anything about that? What about this internet thing, baby? Yes sir. Yes sir. No more congestion, baby. [ __ ] your congestion. Bang.

Wow, this is electric, dude. What a video. I >> actually love I love Dpin. I love when these guys start building hardware, actual building atoms and [ __ ] Wow. Absolutely electric. Absolutely electric. Super dope. Super super cool. Um, yeah, Leo, you can pull us back, man. At the end of the videos, you can just throw us back. Get that scene back in the preview. It's like we're training full time here. Real time here. Vibes are up. Yeah. So, that's zero. Uh, there's a couple other sick videos that that I wanted to uh pull up, but what was your take about that video? I thought it was pretty good.

>> I mean, I think once again, like this is the nature of uh of crypto in the modern era in 2025. We have institutional capital. We also have institutional grade founders. And I think the thesis about uh higher quality founders coming on into the scene as Trad and and DeFi integrate to just being finance. >> Yeah. >> We're going to ultimately see a lot of founders rise to the top. They're going to be associated with this industry because the entire world is associated with this industry. Every company is an AI company. Every every company is a crypto company. And so when you see a team's rebuilding the internet hardware and infrastructure from the ground up, of course they're using tokens to

coordinate their economic systems. >> Well, um, our boy Austin is doing the podcast tour today, so nothing special for you, Rob. Sorry about that. Uh, maybe maybe we'll get him next time. >> No. >> Top G's, what up? Jordan Jackson, what's good, bro? GMGM R3. GM GM brother, what's going on? What is good? What is good? What is good? Nah, bro. I'm just messing with you, bro. Um, I want to show you guys what I'm doing on Koshi. Um, which sick. I got my other laptop here. I'm going to pull that up. But, um, let me let me show you guys what what's going on on Koshi uh for a second here. I might need to like I might need to set up something different. But yeah,

I've been betting on um I've been betting on basically Koshi or Bitcoin hitting new highs um is like been my my my bet. I did one that it's going to hit 125K before um November and then I did one that was like it's going to hit over 150k before March of next year. So the odds were pretty good too, Rob. I mean, look, prediction markets are the largest asset class that is still yet to be discovered.

>> Yeah, I agree with that. >> Derivatives account for trillions of dollars in volume >> here. Look, instead of doing all that, I'm just going to share my screen um and uh show you guys what I've been doing. Um so, we'll just pull that up and you can see this rep in a sec. Let me know when you can see and I'll just show you what I was doing. So, basically, I was looking at um I was basically looking at Bitcoin on Koshi and trying to figure out the best way to allocate to Bitcoin and thinking about it. Um can we get it up on the

screen, please? Um, I've got Okay. Will you get Let me know. Um, try now. I'm going have to refresh back back there. Anyway, the deal was just um when will Bitcoin hit 125K? And I have it as Come on. Let's go, guys. Yeah, we got to tell old boy Marcel that it's a little slow to pull up there.

Yeah. So, I have this here for when will Bitcoin hit um 150K. I've got it as it'll hit in before March 2026 for 46%. So, I more than doubled up on that if that hits. And then I also took this one. Will Bitcoin hit 125K before November at 60%. So, a little bit worse odds, but to me, it's kind of obvious that it's going to hit >> such that's such a >> shorter timeline. I mean, there's so much room between November 25 and March 26.

>> No, I know, but it's 125K. is 150k and bitcoin's at >> yeah but for the no I think >> 197 right now >> I think especially that the one for the 150 by March of 26 if you're putting 125 and a 60% chance I mean it then 150 by March of next year seems like a no-brainer. >> Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think it's the fact that it's not higher makes me think that people are pricing in a Q1 dump. >> That seems to be consensus right now.

It's Q4. >> Yeah, >> we go higher. Q1. >> I mean, Bitcoin's at 119 right now. Looks pretty incredible. So, anyway, this is uh this is what what I was thinking about, you know, doing. Also, I thought this chart was pretty was pretty insane. Just the amount of growth that's been happening has been pretty insane. Um, yeah. I mean, look at that. I mean, Kashi's obviously gone through these ups and downs, but it's just like this incredible incredible rise here. So, pretty pretty stoked.

>> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Let's call she in the green. >> Yeah. Yeah. What is And what are with what's with these peaks? This is on a weekly basis. This is going back to the beginning of the month. >> Some of them amount traded per day. It's like I think it's NFL Sundays, bro. >> Got to be, right? It's got to be the weekends. >> I think it's dude. >> And so call she's getting a lot of their volume from sports betting. >> Seems like it. >> Yeah, basically that and uh I I looked at the top markets by open interest. It's like uh sports betting uh politics and like um the government I think the government shutdown thing had a lot of uh open interest. I think Jordan Jackson's right. Kchi seems like it's captured more non-cryptonative people. I

think that's super accurate. What's the deal with Zcash? Are we cringing over there? >> Oh my gosh, dude. I have I I just Look at this tweet from Arthur. Dude, >> I think Secrets of Crypto got it right with the rotations. >> Dude, look at this. This is funny, dude. >> Wow. So, so I was having a dinner with Naval. He shilled me Zcash, so I wanted to ape. >> We can't see the right side of your screen over there.

>> No, I know, but you can you you can see the tweet though. It's pretty It's pretty It's pretty baller. >> We can see the chart. >> Yeah, >> but on the right it was cut off. Shield Zcast, all my brokers said I couldn't trade, so I had to have it. >> It's classic Arthur, dude. It's totally classic Arthur. Um, >> yeah, that was a good combo that we had out in Singapore. Yeah. You said he called for 250k by the end of the year. >> 250k Bitcoin by the end of the year. >> My god. >> $3.4 million Bitcoin by 2028. >> Wow.

>> And this is he he didn't boil it down to just this one thing. There was actually a sequence of events >> that he called as bullish and what is going to end up leading to this uh appreciation. But the main kicker in that string of events was Lisa Cook, the Fed governor, getting cooked. >> And if that happens, then there's a it it creates this domino effect of things that can happen and it'll enable Trump to basically take control of the money printer.

>> That was his thesis. >> Yeah. And it makes complete sense like if you walk through the logic of it, and I can do so pretty quickly here, and then we'll get Austin up. Um, essentially you've got uh two governing bodies in the Fed. You've got the FOMC controls the interest rates >> and then you've got the Fed board of governors who control the regional banks. >> Uh there's seven people on uh the Fed uh FOMC and there's 12 in the Federal Board of Governors. I may have that switched, but I'm pretty sure that's accurate. And so basically he made a poker analogy where pocket rockets two aces doesn't mean [ __ ] You want four and seven to

pack the Fed. You want four out of seven to make a simple majority vote so that you can swing the vote in the FOMC. And you want seven out of 12 in the Federal Board of Governors so that you have a majority in the governors. And if you can do that, then you can steepen the yield curve. You can bring interest rates lower in the short term. you can finance the debt and print money as a result of accomplishing whatever your political bias is. And Arthur has this thesis and and it's not just his thesis, but Trump has said it. Bessent has said it.

Um they call it Main Street, not Wall Street, where and Arthur calls this QE for poor people. He says they're going to so they're going to print the money and they're going to pump it directly into the heart of America which is effectively like uh giving it to regional banks rather than the too big to fail banks. And then and then what happens as a result you remember the concept of a money multiplier. This is how like money is actually like injected into the system. If you put it if you just print the money you give it directly to the top it doesn't flow through the entire economy. But if you have money that's injected into the heart of the economy, the smaller bank, the regional banks, the money multiplier

is bigger because the amount the number of times it's rehypothecated is greater. And so if you start at smaller banks, they loan it out and then it goes to the bigger banks. The bigger banks loan it out and you end up turning the book more times as a result of starting the money at the smaller bank. And as a result, you end up growing the money supply larger than you would have if you just kept if you just printed the money and kept it at the top. It doesn't have anywhere to go. And so as a result, the money multiplier is bigger. The supply of money grows. Even though you're printing less money, the supply of money grows and asset prices are inflated.

>> I know. I mean, look, I think that's what we saw in the previous like COVID kind of money stimulation was just it went to the top. And so, uh, Arthur Arthur's Arthur's, um, take was also that France is going to collapse in some capacity and that the EU. >> He mentioned that at the end of our clip. >> Yeah. >> And he just posted about that today. >> So, we're >> All right, guys. We got Austin Federa in the background. Um, the the mainet special, the co-founder of D0ero. I had Austin on on the pod maybe 5 months ago um in New York City and we had a great conversation leading up to mainet. So, pretty stoked on this.

>> Um, >> I just had Austin on a panel out in uh >> sick >> out in KBW. So, I'm excited to continue the conversation. It's a good >> All right, great. Well, we'll bring him up. Um, and we'll get started, guys. Welcome to the show, Austin. Congrats on main event, dude. >> Hey, thanks for having me and thanks uh it's been quite a >> Yeah, man. How how you feeling? Are you tired? Are you rested? Are you have have you been staying up all night? what's been there. >> Yeah, it's that like classic mix of like a lot of adrenaline, a lot of excitement, and not a lot of sleep. But, uh, team feels awesome. Uh, I think, you know, the network getting stood up so quickly, uh, going from, you know, announcing in December to launching in October, uh, is a great feeling for

everyone involved in the project. From the two core contributor groups in the foundation to the 12 independent contributors that are actually powering the fiber that makes the whole thing possible. only 12 independent contributors making the network uh possible. That's insane. So, how does that work, Austin? I know I mean we can talk about all different, you know, types of things, but basically you have people in different jurisdictions running um like supplying the cable like like how does the Yeah, >> totally. So, you know, at its core, D0ero is an attempt to build a new internet for high performance distributed systems like blockchain. uh and just like in a blockchain where you know the foundation does not run the validators they're run by independent

people all around the world you know this is not a compute network it's a bandwidth network and so what does that mean well the folks who have to provide uh you know capacity to the network are people who have access to fiber >> right >> and so there's 12 different companies and organizations around the world today uh ranging from you know trading firms to uh digital asset firms like Galaxy to uh you know some VCs that have decided to get into the space to data center operators. They're all contributing fiber to the zero network and it it I mean it is exactly what it sounds like.

It's a giant spiderweb of glass running all around the world that carries data through fiber optic cables. Um and at the end of the day this is like physically interconnected physically plugged in cables. So this is a physical infrastructure network. This is not like a software network, but the magic of how it all works together is in the fact that it's powered by blockchain and powered by a token. And that's what allows multiple independent contributors to admin their own network links, which is not possible in a traditional high performance network.

But it appears to something operating on it as one homogeneous network. The same way that if you're operating a program on Salana or Ethereum, you're not like, oh, which validator is running my code today? It just appears as one homogeneous virtual machine. Well, once again, congrats Austin. We'll give you some confetti here, some money. >> Incredible. And uh you know, we we did talk about this on the panel a little bit as far as how it works, but one thing that came out just in the last couple weeks is the no action letter that you guys got from the SEC. And I think >> you know, for anyone who's unfamiliar, like this is actually something that's really, really hard to get and really bullish because >> when you get a letter from the SEC, usually it's like, wait, what just happened? We're in trouble. But that's

not the case here. You guys actually got the confirmation, the rubber stamp that you guys are in the clear. So maybe you could talk through what a no action letter is, how you were able to obtain it, and what this means for Double Zero. >> Yeah. If uh if you told me in 2022 that in 2025 I was going to be a founder that got a letter from the SEC and had a statement issued by a commissioner, I don't think I would have been bullish. Um but times times have changed. And so a no action letter is something that is pretty common in the traditional financial space. uh but they're very rare in crypto and they're sort of a highly coveted letter. And what this basically is is you go to the SEC before you do something and you say, "Hey, here's a thing we'd like to do. Do you

see any issues with this as security laws are written and interpreted?" And so, uh you know, usually what this is is a traditional, uh financial firm saying, "Hey, we want to do this thing. Would this run a foul of any of your regulations?" For crypto, there's this massive gray zone, right? There are some things that are like objectively securities. Like if you tokenize or if you issue stock on a blockchain, that is just a security because the security just because it's on a blockchain doesn't make it magically not a security. And then you have things uh you know like Bonk, which is like just a memecoin and obviously nothing besides that or Bitcoin, which is very clearly a commodity. there's a whole gray zone in the middle where we don't know, you

know, there's no clarity from the government on how to deal with these things. And so what we did is we went to the SEC uh and we said, "Hey, we have this reward distribution mechanism called proof of utility, which is a system that more closely resembles proof of work. Um but contributors to the network, people who provide fiber, they're going to get rewarded and their rewarded rate is going to be directly proportional to uh the utility they bring to the network. And so you know if you are bring something called sharapply values and it's basically this formula that says how much worse would this system be if we take this piece away.

So, it's very similar to proof of work where if I bring 10% of the hash power to the Bitcoin network, I'm going to get on average 10% of the rewards of the Bitcoin network. Uh, so we went to the SEC and we said we we'd like to apply for what's called relief um on this component of these payments to contributors based on their contributions to the network. Uh, and we also asked for relief on staking rewards. Now, there's no staking live on the network today, but we expect a small level of inflation and staking in the future. uh and basically said what do you think about this? Uh now it's it's a lot more complicated than that. There's a lot more lawyers involved. It was a monthsl long process. But we found the SEC to be quite receptive. We found them to be quite professional, quite

diligent. There was no crypto animosity. There was no pro- crypto meddling. They they were just, you know, people doing their job and following a process to assess whether this thing uh would fall under security or not. And the determination was these two areas we would we'd apply for relief. Uh they do not consider them securities transactions and therefore issued a no action letter. Uh which which is quite exciting. It takes this like very very wide gray zone in the legal space and it makes it a little bit smaller. >> Yeah. I think I mean we've been so blessed this year with the administration in terms of their approach to crypto and I think we're seeing a lot of positives out of that and then we're also seeing perhaps

overzealous digital asset treasury type of things happening in in the same realm but generally speaking the you know in this case this is so so critical to zero's network design that had this been a a part of Dendler's regime Zero simply wouldn't be possible because it probably would have get struck down. >> Yeah. Or it's at least not possible in the United States, >> right? Which is a big market. And so >> which is big and and the the thing to really like remember here is >> for folks who are cryptonative like we're used to dealing with securities law. We're used to like these things possibly being securities. Like Coinbase has a whole legal team that was dedicated to just telling the government no these things are actually

commodities. >> Yeah. If you're a telecom company, if you are someone who has access to private fiber, or if you're a trading firm that wants to contribute to this, but you have a lot of licenses issued by a lot of regulators, you might look at this and say, "Gh, this looks really interesting, but like we don't have the lawyers on staff or we're really worried about the other implications to our other businesses because there's no right to trade, right? It's like you need a license to trade and they can always pull that license for another reason." And so what we really got from this was a lot more clarity around how we can bring contributors into the network in a way that they don't have to worry that these tokens they receive might be classified as security.

>> Well, Austin, we got a couple uh Yeah, Robert, >> was that a concern? Did it did any one of the providers that that you brought on to the network bring that up like, "Hey, like am I allowed to take custody of these tokens?" >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Constantly. I mean, and this even comes up when you're talking to Visa and Mastercard and PayPal about stable coins, right? The most the most boring product in crypto and boring in a good way, but like the most vanilla, boring, the price never changes hopefully uh thing in crypto. And even that, the gas fees needed to pay transactions were like a yearslong concern from these companies when they were just like, "We don't know how these things should be treated. Um, if we're sending payment to a validator, do we

need to KYC that validator for processing our transaction because that could be considered a securities transaction? You know, all of these problems with uh all types of institutions adopting crypto. You then multiply them probably by 10 because at least those are financial services firms that are familiar with securities law. A telecom company, they're not familiar with this. This is it's it's sort of like asking a blockchain company about like medical privacy laws. It's just not something they have any memory for. >> Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. And and Austin, we talked about kind of like the anti-uh fragile, you know, philosophy back in our last podcast. We spoke about how truly, you know, if a nation state wants you to be shut down, you you know, you're going to be shut down. But basically up until that point, double

zero enables you to never go down. Like that that is kind of like the philosophy basically, which I think was extremely extremely bullish um for kind of what he was trying to do. >> Yeah. And look at Afghanistan, right? There's a lot of Ethereum validators that went offline in Afghanistan. >> Yeah, India as well. I've been seeing quite a bit of like messaging and uh Wi-Fi going down and all that type of stuff. We we had a couple things from the chat. Austin, we got New Type is saying he wonders now that uh 0ero is live on mainet. Will we finally see the other fast chains launch like Monad, Mega E, Fogo? Maybe they had to wait for for the zero launch first. Perhaps that's a bit of wishful thinking. But t talk to us about the the uh chains which you can uh kind of plug into because I

know you know zero came from Salana. You came from Salana but Salana is not D0ero's endgame. This should be able to to plug into just about any chain. Um talk to us about how you guys are planning to work with some of these upcoming really fast chains that will want to have this distributed set of uh fiber optic cables operating at a very very high speed. and talk to us about if it if it's more relevant for distributed L1s versus like single sequence or L2s and what the kind of difference in application is.

>> Yeah, it's a great question. So I mean to start we are base layer neutral infrastructure. So0ero will support all types of high performance distributed systems that want to operate on it. It's not a Salana project or something along those lines. There's no ownership from the Salana Foundation. There's no grant from Salana. you know it it truly is an independent project. We started with Sauna because that's an area where the problems were most apparent that validators and traders were running into these problems uh on a daily basis. Uh but we will you know expand out to other chains. We'd love to work with all the ones you mentioned. We're already working with Fogo. We're already working with Shelby which is this storage network that Aptos is building. Uh there's another unlaunched uh new L1 we're working with as well. There's a

bunch of Ethereum L2s that we've been talking to as well because the problem of a of C there's like three problems that are all bandwidth related um and latency related and an L2 does not have all of them but it has some of them. So like let's take something like Hyperlid for example because this is like a really good example of it. This is a fairly small cluster of validators that are all running in the same region. So they don't have this problem of the public internet slowing them down between consensus because they're all running in basically the same data data center or same data centers. And because of that you know when you're when you're within a system the connectivity is pretty great. You know if you are talking to another server in New York City the the metro connections are very strong. It's when you start getting, oh,

I'm going to go to a different city and a different country and now I'm going to cross an ocean. That's really when you start to see the public internet uh lack its performance characteristics. But even on something like Hyperlid, one of the main problems that they have, for example, are read nodes. There's so many people trying to read data from the Hyper liquid ledger that it's very hard to run a read node that keeps up. So what happens if you have stale data? Well, if you have stale data, you are at a systematic disadvantage and there's no way to recover from that disadvantage. Um, there's no such thing as time travel, but getting information before someone else in a market is the closest thing we can have to time travel. And so, even in a centralized L2

or small validator cluster L1, you can use 0ero to multiccast out data. And multiccast is this technology where it's basically hardware acceleration of packet replication. So instead of the the computer having to send out data, you know, 250 times, 2,000 times to everyone who wants a copy of it, the network can send it out once or the validator can send it out once and then the network switches replicate that data automatically. This is the same way that you know AirPlay or Sonos speakers work. Your phone's not sending out 10 copies of the music. at sending one copy out that the network gets to 10 different locations. You can't run multiccast on the public internet. But you can see why in a situation where you have a really

fast L2 and the market's moving really quickly and blocks are being made, you know, every 10 milliseconds, every 1 millisecond, that the ability to blast that data out quickly and fairly to everyone that wants to receive it is going to be critical to making markets actually work. And we know this is the case because this is exactly how NASDAQ NASDAQ and NY work. They use multiccast to distribute price feeds within their trading data centers to make sure that that's fair for everyone else. But that's just one part of it. Uh the other piece you can do is if you're a validator and you are voting, you can now multiccast all of the votes. And so suddenly signature aggregation on votes becomes a much quicker operation. Um, if you were sending a transaction and

you're building a validator with a type of architecture that allows for this, you could even multiccast transactions out and suddenly you can have two validators building a block at the same time. There's a lot of these types of things that become possible when you're not constrained by data flows on the public internet. Austin, one thing that I've been hearing about with the L2 versus L1 kind of conversation that is very related to multiccast and is very related to this general uh idea is like, oh, plasma L1 should have been L2 because they're going to save $500 million a year on validator costs. And this that's more of the economic side, but what we're talking about is more on the bandwidth side here. But with D0ero, does does D0ero's tech here with

multiccast and this ability to make uh effectively distributed L1's better like and solve more problems for them than necessarily than what it could do for a single sequencer L2 is basically what I'm getting to. Does that kind of make does this make L2's like less less of a powerful like force if you will or does it kind of take away from L2's value prop or or like can you kind of see what I'm getting at here? Like >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I see what you're getting at. So, I'm not sure it like the cost of operating a validator network usually is not the actual validators.

Um the validators are $1,500 $2,000 a month at maximum. Now, if you're running failovers for them, you can double those numbers. These are not that much. Obviously, it's a lot of money for a normal person, but like in the scale of something like a new stable coin blockchain launching, they're rounding errors. Really, what the cost is on a validator network for the most part is inflation and rewards. Um, and that's kind of where those come from. I I don't I'm not aware of any L2 that has inflation because they're just centralized sequencers and they just collect the base fee uh you know from from ETH in this case for the most part.

Um you know and so you're not really in a place where like the costs are really more issuance cost than they are validator network cost. You look at something like Hyperlquid or Fogo, it's not that many computers. The cost is not actually in that. So, uh, I don't know if that makes the L2 thesis stronger or weaker. I think actually probably what we do, um, there's a lot of advantages to like, if you allow me a diversion for a second, um, an L2 is basically a market that's hyper localized to one CPU and one and like two dens of RAM. Like it exists in like probably one square meter and that's it. You look at like the New York Stock Exchange, it exists in

probably 500 square meters in one data center. You look at the Binance order book, it exists also in a few square meters in the world. And so all of these are basically point source markets. And what happens in a point source market is you have an event that basically creates a light cone that uh you know comes out from there. And very similar to like I don't know why this is my go-to analogy, but it's like if the sun magically disappeared, right? there's a propagation delay as that gravity well uh readjusts that moves at the speed of light and you can think about information moving from a point source market in a similar way. So Mercury and Venus go flying off way before that you know event hits the earth and we go flying off into space. Um markets work

exactly the same way and so when you're dealing with point source markets which is what L2s are and what traditional exchanges are those occur in one finite location or centralized exchanges. When you're talking about global markets, the point source is moving around all the time. You still have point source markets, but now it's built in Singapore. Now it's built in Amsterdam. Now it's built in New York. And so you have this kind of ripple effect of information. So the asymmetry is uh more evenly distributed in one of these systems. There's advantages to that and there's disadvantages to that. The advantage to that is that it is a little bit more fair. L2s have this fundamental fairness problem that every centralized market has, which is if you are next to the trade server, you're going to get fresher data and you're going to have

lower latency to transact with it. And actually, a lot of L2s go through a lot of work to hide where they're actually running their sequencer just to prevent this type of thing from happening. Um, and so you can sort of see this both ways that like the multiple concurrent proposers vision of Salana basically creates global markets very effectively. But the other way to look at this is with enough fast L2s with enough fast fiber interconnecting them, you effectively get global markets as well because you have arbitrage events able to move very quickly. This is why if price discovery happens in New York, it's reflected in Singapore very quickly because all of these networks have private fiber lines connecting them. And so this is kind of where like if there's one L2 that becomes the only dominant

L2, like if base or mega ETH or whatever is 95% of the market, the applications for double zero are lessened. If we have a healthy competition where we have like an L2 that's like the New York Stock Exchange, we have an L2 that's the Nikk. We have this multi-olar world and they're not all physically located in the same place, which I don't think they should be. collocation on markets is actually a disadvantage, not an advantage. Um, like there's all these rumors that Binance is moving their central limit order book, like the actual server that runs the order book from Tokyo to Dubai. And if they do that, like this is incredibly bullish for zero because suddenly you now have all these arbitrage events between the exchanges located in Tokyo and the

Binance order book in Dubai. Um, so it's a very interesting cool system that starts to reflect more of a traditional market structure. >> Yeah. And I think I think what you're getting at is that well, just to kind of rephrase, you've got multiple centers of gravity, you know, that that are kind of spread around in the world and that creates a more fair market because it it creates a more more of these checks and balances effectively between these different these different poles or these nodes in the system. And when you have that, you're able to connect them through double zero. And so when you have a multi-polar world, double zero becomes really practical to connect all all of these nodes.

>> Yes. >> Um awesome. That that makes a ton of sense. And it also describes the demand for the system where you know these are nodes, these are validators, these are trading firms that are all trying to pipe their flow through these pipelines at the speed of light or as close to it as they can. I'm curious a little bit about the supply side of this market. Um I I just quickly looked up the kind of web of fiber that is currently underwater right now and there's several providers actually way more than I thought maybe close to a hundred or more. And so you mentioned that there's 12. Are you guys gearing up to try to take more of that market and and ultimately you know do you do you wish or expect 100% of underwater fiber to be transferring and coordinating with

double zero or maybe talk to us about the network effects at which you know that becomes possible or sustainable. So, uh, I would not expect it to ever be 100% because there are trading firms that have a lot of those access to those fiber lines as well. And so, what we have in the in the world of sub fiber is a fairly diverse group of companies that use those systems. It's everything from the state department that has its embassies wired up with private fiber networks to Google to, you know, Meta is the largest investor in subc fiber currently of anyone in the world. And it's so your Instagram reels load really quickly in Bali so they can show you more ads. Like it is just because they're an ad tech company. Um and so

you know these big internet service providers I imagine they will continue to build their own cable systems and use their own cable systems but they're run by one independent or one centralized company. They're not they don't have these properties that we value in blockchain. So, I think there's kind of, you know, if you look at this from uh like the point of view of someone like, let's say, like an Epic Games or something like that, they make Fortnite. They have kids all around the world that want to play Fortnite. There's no way to prioritize traffic on the public internet today. You would think that they could just be like, "Look, this is Fortnite traffic. We make billions of dollars a year on it. We're just going to pay every ISP 10% more to carry our data more quickly, and that'll help

prioritize data." There's no way to do that on the internet today. And so really what you can think of is we're building a parallel internet system that is using uh technologies that allow it to move faster than the public internet but also allow for things like fee discrimination on data prioritization. And you know the first most uh glaring application of that are for traders and people who want to do arbitragees between different point source markets. But as we expand, there's no reason that that can't also be used in a, you know, a less latency sensitive way for things like online gaming or any sort of situation where someone wants to prioritize data.

>> Would you agree that maybe public internet is this network is also public in a sense, right? It's just premium. Yes. Right. It's not a private thing that you guys are gatekeeping. Anyone can come and and if they have the the resources, they can pay for the advanced uh service. >> Yeah, definitely. I mean there there are some limitations on that and what I mean by that is like we still have like you can't send WhatsApp messages over0 for example. Um we do have some of those types of limitations just because we have to run some amount of traffic control but as long as a system is qualified in like the Salana network has like a data flow that's easy not easy to understand but is modelable and like we can we know what that is you can do the

same thing for everything that is a programmatic protocol. So as long as the thing is a protocol, uh you can run it on double zero. We can understand it. Uh you know, these things can work together with the FPGAAS and the routing to make sure that everything gets where it wants to go. Our long-term vision though really is like we want to replace IP addresses. They're a pretty outdated anarchical way to do routing. When I'm trying to talk to a server, I'm not trying to talk to an IP address. Most of the time nowadays, I'm trying to talk to a cryptographic signature. And so we really want to build out, you know, public private key routing. So when you say like, hey, there's this validator identity that I want to get packets to, you're not then saying, oh, what's its IP address? Let me run that over a

network. You're actually, you know, private key, public key, cryptography, handshaking with that system, establishing connections, and going from there. And so this can remove things like certificate authorities and a lot of like DNS and a lot of these very centralized services on the internet today that are actually major points of censorship uh that we don't even think about as major points of censorship. Austin, I gotta ask a bit of a game theoretical question as a result of what you've just described because in in in this explanation and in theory, it sounds like we're solving really really core problems that you know should have been solved a while ago, but crypto hasn't had this uh like you know you I think you said this was like crypto's

broadband moment basically, right? where the internet's had all this technology for a long time, but for some reason we've been doing crypto in kind of like this old school fashion. That being said though, when I think about validators that operate on an L1, and I may have asked you this on the pod, but I just want to get a further uh confirmation, like validators are making extra money on Salana and on some of these chains because they have um access to uh ME effectively and they get priority ordering and they get geo tips and so there's like this incentive for validators to actually just keep kind of farming that yield, if you will, versus

going to a more like fair, quicker system that is basically, you know, better run. It seems like you guys have gotten over that problem. You guys got an additional 10 million soul tokens as part of your um zero delegation program uh that you announced yesterday, I believe. talk to us about the process of getting you know 20% or so of Salana's mainet stake on a double zero like did you have to convince the validators that like this is going to be better for them how does that process really work to kind of navigate these >> and we are still convincing them I I I would certainly not call it a job done by any means um our ultimate metric that we need to do is we need to make

validators more money than they would make without double zero now if you think about it from the perspective of a Salana token holder You know, if you think the network going from 10,000 transactions per second to 100,000 is going to uh be meaningful for your economic well-being in future, uh talk to your validator about running on on double zero. But from the individual validators perspective, you know, it's not enough to go to them and say like, hey, if we just do this thing, everyone's going to have a better time. Everything's going to be better. Like these are, you know, as they should be, cold-blooded capitalists. That's why we're all here. That's the thing that makes Bitcoin great is that people trying to screw each other over actually makes the most secure monetary system anyone's ever created. So, we have to

work with adversarial incentives and assume that everyone is just a self-interested actor in it for their own reasons. And so, we're working with Jetto, we're working with a bunch of other folks on making it possible to have different types of transactions, different types of mev potentially basically take advantage of the speed that the double zero network offers. Now, one of the really cool things is there was a proposal to modify Salana just a few days ago from I think the fire dancer team that removes the compute limits and blocks entirely. It basically says, hey, if you can build a giant massive block with a ton of fees in it, you should do that as long as you can build it and transmit it within the audit time. And so there's things like that where suddenly when we start removing some of the limiters that are currently on the

protocol, you start to see like pretty asymmetric benefits from being able to either build bigger blocks or build more computensive blocks. Uh and our hope too is that like this is not just a game where it's like, oh, it's more mev, it's more, you know, these types of things. It's literally if the block is 10 times larger, there's not going to be 10 times as many fees in it, but there's certainly going to be more fees in it than there would be otherwise. Yeah, it's just like growing the pie and if we have a bigger system that is better oiled than you as a validator like basically what what we're saying here is you know Salana Monad Avalanche insert L1 optimism arbitum etc base these are all in their you know junior

toddler years still which is totally respectable and reasonable.0 0ero helps us to get to a more middle school high school level grade. In doing that, you can expect to grow the pi significantly. um such that you know if you were to run like a linear calculation or something like like you know you could see the function growth happen as a result of what you know zero brings like let's put it this way like you know would would the CME come trade on Salana if double zero didn't exist and that's the question that we're trying to answer basically >> right and I'm not here to say they definitely will with double zero but I'll say they're more likely >> they do and the reason for that is there's all this lack of determin ism in

blockchains today. You send a transaction, maybe it takes 200 millonds to get there, maybe it takes 2 seconds to get there. This is why, you know, you see like Anatoli tweeting so much about like what is the inclusion latency uh for like P95 and P99 on the network. It's like how deterministic is it that when a market maker sends a cancel, it's actually going to get in in a known quantity of time. In traditional exchanges, they have, you know, 12 nines of certainty that when they send that transaction, it will be uh, you know, processed within the certain amount of time that they expect it to. They don't have that in blockchain today. So, what happens?

They can't quote as tight because they're worried about getting picked off when market >> and you called that jitter, right? It was like this like jitter effect that that you're trying to basically normalize. like basically get rid of these spikes of jitters where you you're not getting the same like like you want to get rid of variance effectively. If there's a little bit of jitter that's fine, but it it must be a normalized uh average that is consistent within some like you know >> we want to get jitter to zero. That is really truly the goal. Um so so what jitter is to sort of like explain what you're talking about here is it is a measurement of how much your ping time changes. So, you can think about this as like if I'm landing at JFK and I have to get to Midtown Manhattan. If I land at 2

am, it might be 45 minutes. If I land at 400 p.m., it might be 2 and a half hours. And so that is jitter that the the same distance of trip on the same amount of miles takes a different amount of time depending on the conditions of the moment. Um, and so if you go to.xyz dashboard, yeah, double Sorry, we just launched this thing. dashboard. Um, you can see in real time the all the fiber links in the network, all the performance characteristics of them, what their latency is. And if you go to this area of telemetry and metrics, you can see how much we beat the public internet. Um, in terms of latency, we don't have a jitter metric in here at the moment. Um, we will be rolling that out, but the jitter on the

zero network is functionally zero. we are talking about, you know, usually 1 millisecond or less of jitter um AC across these links 24/7 365 and that is really what traditional firms expect and want when they're looking at new places to trade. And that's why you guys have to have a very understandable um well uh you have to have a very solid understanding of what you're putting into the network like you said what maybe WhatsApp you use as an example because it's unpredictable in flow and so once you start including some of that those things they have a lot of variance as far as when they're traffic when they're clogged and and so you're restricting what you're putting into the network based on things that you can

really measure you can really understand the flows and you You can essentially strip that into just protocols and include that into the system so that you have a very solid understanding of what's going in and and therefore the variance of the system at any given time. >> Yeah. And you know the other piece too is it has to be it doesn't have to be but stuff that will benefit from multiccast will benefit disproportionately from double zero. And so that's where distributed systems or the type like like a blockchain L1 or an L2 where a lot of people want to read from it at the same time. Anytime you have a lot of people that want the same thing that's produced in one location, that's when multiccast and double zero really really is is important. Um,

latency is also obviously another huge one from a trading perspective. Even stuff like uh you know flashbots, which you know Ethereum the L1, there's no use for the Ethereum L1 on Zero, it's it's built to be at a certain slow speed intentionally. Uh you know Flashbots is not that at all. Flashbots still benefits from low latency connections. And so even if like the main network itself is not a good fit, there's things that run on top of it that would benefit from this. >> So like Rob, when your girlfriend is mad at you and texting you a ton on WhatsApp, you just take your zero validator that's connected to Florida, shut it off, go for a run, come back, turn it on, you'll be all good, man. I think I think the network will will be able to handle a couple angry texts,

though. You know, I I would hope, you know, >> Andy, one day you're going to get a girlfriend and she's going to be running her own fiber on double zero and you guys can just talk to each other at super low latency. No jitter whatsoever. >> No jitter, baby. New new Rollup TV motto, no jitter in this stream, baby. No jitter. Austin Federa, congratulations on zero mainet. I know you've been working on this a ton. Um, I guess last but not least, man, what's your focus now that it's kind of a new day one? Where's your head at? >> I I'd say there's there's really two things. One is onboarding more validators to the network. And the second is uh building out support for new tenants, new uh blockchains and other types of high performance

distributed systems that want to operate on it. So if you're building a protocol, if you work for a protocol, uh if you are a founder of a protocol and you feel inspired, like we'd love to chat. >> Beautiful. Awesome. Awesome. Thanks for your time, dude. See you in the very cool to see you work on this. >> Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. >> We'll see you in New York. Peace, man. >> See you next time. >> Much love. All right, buddy. All right, Rob. Um, well, no, baby. That's the motto. >> No, no jitter, but you're still a jitterbug kid. >> So, dude, that thing was trading um or that thing was uh raising I think at like it was a pretty high valuation. Um and was very oversubscribed.

Um let's >> I mean, >> when you think about the power of what's possible here and and what Austin is building, this is fundamentally like this is these are some of the projects that are bigger than what we currently know as crypto. Um, >> what the hell? It says it's trading at 80 billion $80 million FTV. >> I mean, that's not financial advice, but that is that is raised to 400, by the way. >> What's that? >> They definitely raised that 3 to 400. This is weird. I was a bit a bit thrown off. Congrats to Austin Austin. Thanks, Rug Lo. Some jitter can be fun. Cheers, gentlemen. Shout out to you, Lee.

Appreciate you vibing with us today, brother. Um, yeah. So, it's trading at uh Yeah, it's trading at $80 billion FTV. They must have did so I mean we didn't talk to him so much about the launch but I see the first tick on Coin Gecko at 8/10 of a cent,000% since then. So there must have been some sort of fair launch. >> I don't know. [ __ ] Why didn't you ask him about that? I should have pulled that up. Oh well. Oh well. Um well that's cool. So yeah I mean that was a good that was a good conversation. Austin's really smart. That was awesome.

>> He's very smart. Very cool. >> Yeah, that was great. Um, well, cool. Let's see what's going on in the chat. Uh, Coin Gecko FTV is using circulating. Oh, okay. Is that right? Cuz the circulating rate or the market cap on Coin Gecko is showing 28 million and then MDV is showing 80 80 million. What is Coin Market Cap showing? Honestly, I don't ever use Coin Market Cap anymore. I I used to use it in like 2017. >> I know. That was the OG. Now >> Oh, I see. Okay. So, D0ero is showing on Coin Gecko an FD or Coin Market Cap an FTV of 5.87 billion.

>> That seems more more accurate. >> That's more like it. Um >> which is which is correct. I mean, there's >> circulating of two billion billion supply. >> It was oversubscribed at 400 million. Um and looks like investors are currently up 10x 12x >> 12x on uh the FTB. So pretty pretty good. Um >> congrats to the investors. Obviously still a ways to go in terms of the vesting schedules, but um you know it happens.

>> It's great to see. >> That's bullish. >> Good guy, too. You can tell he's just doing it because he for the love of the game. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um so that's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean anywhere else we got >> 5 billion seems more >> 5 billion seems more kind of in tune with what's realistic here and what's normal. >> Yeah, I'd say so. >> So yeah, I mean dude, um, welcome back, man. Um, you know, I'm going to pull up Yahoo News and just see what's going on in the real world. Uh there's a government shutdown is is going on. So maybe we can just pull this up uh Leo and just uh

>> show what's going on here. >> Imposing leftwing priorities that are contrary. >> I mean you just saw the ticker of Ethereum on the real world and the crypto Democrats in Congress scream and weep and nash their teeth. The shutdown could leave more than 750,000 federal employees furoughed and more than 2 million military service members without a paycheck. Heather Campbell, a military wife and mother of three, says many families could struggle to get food on the table. White House really difficult economic pattern for militaryies. They were trying to lay off people and they were trying to get people to struggling to put food on the table.

Vice President JD Vance was pressed on why layers are necessary given that previous administrations only work a temporary move. What we're saying is that we might have to take extraordinary steps the longer this goes. >> The White House is also targeting Democratic states with a wave of cuts to federal projects. The cuts will impact 16 states including $18 billion for infrastructure projects in New York and nearly 8 billion for energy programs fights who refused to support you. You know what's funny is that this was uh this was coming in and like Trump was supposed to or Elon was trying to do this and he did it and um Trump like pushed him out of it and then now

they're just doing the same thing. They're just reducing the amount of workers in the government. It's weird. It's like Elon was trying to do this and then Trump and him got in a fight and then now they're just doing it. I don't know. >> I think Trump was always on board with firing people. I don't think they got into a spat. Like this was not the purpose of their spat. >> No. >> Um, >> interesting. >> But it is ironic that now they're coming back to it and now they're being kind of like it's under the veil of like being forced to do it. But there is >> I have this inkling that I think they almost wanted it to get to this point and they could have pushed harder for it not to get shut down.

>> Um, and this is just another way that they can cut some of the workforce, put in some automation. Look, if you're a pure technocrat, you love this. You love that people are getting fired. You love that people are getting laid off because we're gonna have AI. We're gonna have robots. Not that robots are going to do so much >> of a politician's job or well, government employees. Government's the largest employer. So, I'm sure there's there's jobs out there that will get laid off that are possible to do with robots. >> AI absolutely. And so if you're a technocrat, you'd love to see automation coming in and replacing human workers.

>> Yeah, I mean it's pretty it's pretty it's pretty um it's pretty indicative of of the times. I mean it's probably just going to keep accelerating from here. So I would you know it it yeah it's pretty yeah it's just how this is how this is happening is just I don't know man but Bitcoin is ripping and I think anything to do with uh you know government shutdown is is bullish. Elon said BBB spent too much money equals fight. Yeah, but that's that's what I mean though, right? Like um Lee like Elon was trying to do the similar thing and and then he kind of got kicked out of the setup because of it, which is just weird. Uh I thought so. Um yeah, Leo, I'm going to pull up um I'm going to pull up good old

Arthur's uh latest blog and I I want to go through it a bit. Um so let's let's get that up. Yeah. So, this is going to be what's more so happening in Europe. And Arthur explained this on our uh on our last chat. >> Yeah. Which again for >> just to close the loop on the American situation. >> I I believe Elon and Trump were on the same page when it came to reducing the government workforce. I think they got into a spat over I believe it was over like Elon kind of bad mouthing some of the other people in the in the government.

They really agreed on the austerity measures that they were putting into place. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So, we'll see. Man, I'd like to talk about what Arthur wrote in this piece. Um I did a notebook LM on it and I thought it was pretty interesting what what Notebook LM was saying, but basically Arthur put out this piece best day. Um kind of talking about the um French. And so I think like the big thing here is here it is the time this time around Germany and France are pulling in opposite directions and French savers know what up. That's not my cursory knowledge.

It's literally just a chart that's showing this and basically this chart is showing um that this chart is showing that people are like pulling out of French savings account. It's a chart of the change in target balance of NCBS which is basically like it it shows net claims or liabilities on the balance sheet of NCBS visa v uh to the European central bank a positive target balance means a NCB which I don't even know what NCB stands for honestly Rob net country balance has a net claim on or something like that on the European uh central bank balance um and that more have flown

in. A negative means that funds have left. And basically what's what's what's happening here is that this is showing that the that the balance of of of capital in French banks is going basically French savers are pulling their money out of France and out of French banks and out into either European central banks or out of the European system. And so Germany always has a target balance banks because it's the largest and strong on this economy. But what about the country that represents the bull white line? That is France. Um, and basically this this essay explains why France is [ __ ] >> And so why >> hold on, it's a little bit more nuanced than that.

>> This essay explains why the European Central Bank is going to need to bail out France. >> Yes. >> And so I I think you're right. It is explaining why French debt is [ __ ] But the EU and the European Central Bank, they can't just let France die. >> Of course, they're going to have to print money to bail. >> They're going have to print money to bail Bitcoin and gold. I mean, we can just scroll down to the end of the page. >> Yeah, exactly. That's the end of the post. If you go >> and if you notice, there's a trend and a pattern when it comes to Arthur's articles is that usually the conclusion ends by Bitcoin and gold >> printing fiat.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, look, either the ECB presses the Burr button now and implicitly finances the French welfare state, or it does later when French capital controls threaten to destroy the euro. Either way, money gets printed to the tune of trillions of eurosillions. Bitcoin don't care. It will cons continue its inexurable rise versus the piece of trash that is the euro, Rob. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. So you'll you're you're seeing this this is no longer just uh just an American thing when they're talking about financing the debt, turning over some of the 9 trillion debt that needs to get refinanced and ultimately printing money into the stable coin issuers uh as a way of refinancing that debt. Nope. Uh this is a global thing.

So yeah, the US might be uh in a bit of a pinch when it comes to printing money, but the EU is just as much feeling that as the US is. Y >> and so France is kind of that first the first hat to drop. Um in which the European Central Bank is going to need to protect against that. Um, and I think if you see this and you see what's happening in America, European Europe, the European Central Bank could also go the stable coin route, >> which could ultimately have a very similar effect to what Arthur is predicting on the onchain, what's going to happen to onchain assets >> as well as with just hard assets in general. But the difference, and I think this is something that we've heard uh

some other uh Twitter philosophers talk about, is that the EU could turn to a central bank digital currency rather than a privatized capitalistic stable coin economy that we have developing in the US. >> Interesting. this tree. >> Hey tree. Hey tree has person turquo waving. Hi tree. Hello tree. Good to see you buddy. Thanks for coming on today. Rob I want to let you you finish but I want to show you something as well. Um >> I think I think I'm all done with that point. Go ahead. Uh, Stripe basically is coming out and we've got a demo here of >> Stripe's um,

Stripe's new new product. >> Okay, so who is this for? What's going on here? Maybe walk us through this. >> So, basically, Stripe is rolling out um fundamental new capabilities. hold and convert balances major currency send and receiver to local bank rails and instantly issued a card back by a balance and basically uh Jeremy is talking about you know you can use USDC everywhere so I just want to show the demo we can talk about it she's a little zoomed in isn't she but it's all Yeah, it's on the screen audio.

should be working. Where's the stable coins, honey? get in the currency in which means you will be charged conversion fees only if you convert currencies no more unnecessary FX fees and switching between currencies is also cheap and

easy so let me quickly do a transfer for you so I can hit this button over here and let's say my business needs more euros I can select euros as the two balance. Let's say I want to convert some pounds. I can enter an amount. >> Someone just asked me if they use base codes if if they'll get an airdrop. I'm like, bro, come on. >> Shows me the conversion fees right here. Look, >> I can hit review. >> I was at base camp. >> Hit convert >> and they're starting to explore network token. We've also used the base app such as which means you can now control the stream without needing a local playing around with it while we're on stream.

>> Account details. >> You won't get a rollup coin airdrop, but you might get a base coin airrop just like they send money to any other local. >> Dude, look at USDC down there for European businesses and so on. No more painful international virus. >> Yeah, I think are >> you know if you're putting some of let's put some of these pieces here. >> Now the next big thing that's different for you now you send money with stripe now a vendor with just their email >> driving it into regional banks >> and so let me show you how that works >> also into stable coin issuers >> let me add a new >> in terms of bills >> and then you've got the European Union going and potentially and also printing trillions potentially launching a stable coin or a or a central bank digital

currency. >> Oh shout out the boy Brad with the one cent tip. Yes sir. Let's go. >> Um, >> we got tips coming in today. You can see my recipient's experience. They're going to get an email. Oh, yeah. I saw them rolling in. And if they have their bank details, >> so if you're putting some of these pieces together, >> well, not, you know, stable coins in in America. We've got kind of this burgeoning industry of stable coins that are launching. We've got the European bank looking to print trillions. I think the European bank is in a position where they're probably just going to print a singular statement.

>> All right. Sorry, Rabbit. Let me pause this. I'll let you finish. This is pretty crazy. This is No, no, no. This is great. This is great background while I'm while I'm explaining the point. >> And so I think what we could Oh, Brad bought some create. I wonder that sounds bullish. Um, >> what I'm getting >> open AI new video tool, Rob, >> we're going to end up with this this >> really wide spectrum of stable coins. >> We are, >> you all right? >> And I think tools like Stripe and these L1s, these payment processors ultimately are going to there's going to be >> Okay, so another piece here is that, you know, we're deregulating this industry to a te.

>> Bro, did you just see that dog bite that ball? >> Oh, I saw it. I saw this. This is AI slop to the max. >> And so what what we've what we've got here and that's another thing is once we've got once we've got four out of seven, we're able to deregulate this industry far and wide. And I think what you're going to end up with is you're going to basically un unshackle these social media companies and and really anyone, these big e-commerce companies as well, and we're going to let them launch their own stable coins. Everyone is I mean Stripe just came out with with their open issuance standard which is going to allow basically you know verified parties to uh launch their coins which

is just crazy >> right and so if you think back to like why Libra why Meta uh had to shut down Libra it's >> because banking regulations did not allow these companies to perform bank functions. >> Yeah. >> But that is no longer the case. I think we're going to have Walmart >> Meta already tried. Apple has trillions of cash on hand. >> They're going to be launching their own currencies. >> They're going to be launching their own stable coins and they're going to now that they have a peg and they have a mechanism to tie these things back to US dollars.

>> America's going to let this thing run wild and I think it's going to enable a lot of the infrastructure that we have built. We're going to need massive coordination tools as a means of making just sifting through all of these stable coins so that we don't end up with this fragmented mess on the back end. >> Yep. And I think that is going to be one of the major use cases for blockchain rails and payment technology is coordinating across hundreds if not thousands of stable coins that end up becoming issued from all of your favorite brands.

Walmart, Amazon, Whole Foods, like all of these guys are going to end up with their own stable coin as a means of kind of protecting their own settlement, increasing and and decreasing their own fees, increasing their own >> capital. >> And basically, they can use capital controls on their own for the money that they have themselves. They don't have to pay 3% to Visa or their settlement network anymore. They can retain all of that >> and then they can they can effectively settle with a bank stable coin and they might even they might even get paid now rather than having to pay 3%.

>> Fortune 5000 isn't even stable coins in the next 10 years. But with every existing blockchain that did he just say 5,000 stable coins in 10 years? >> No. Every top fortune 500 company or 5,000 company should not be using stable coins. >> Can see every payment they're coming to not be using stable coins. >> Yeah, he's he's pitching privacy basically. >> So I think you'll agree with me that stable coins don't work without privacy. People still don't think >> but I think you'll end up with privacy enabled stable coins. >> You think so?

>> Yeah. That's what pay you like circle arc is already talking about enabling privacy on their network. >> What if I told you we had >> you can enable privacy at the infrastructure layer. You don't need to do it at the currency for the stable coin layer. >> Thous of users and millions in volume. That's what it will take. [Music] >> Yo Rob, so get this bro. Lighter mainets live. I'm texting my boy Reed. I'm like, "Bro, let me buy OTC points off you. I'll trade you some locked penu." Bro, this is the same trade as hyperlquid, dude. The same trade. I swear to God, it's the same trade. It's it's get on there, you know, today, whatever. Get

some assets on there. Do some farming, whatever. Get some points, but you're not going to make a lot of money. It's too late on the points farming. My buddy Reed, I was in Sweden with him in July and he was [ __ ] just dialing on the points. I remember we went to dinner in can >> he was freaking just points farming. >> That's all he was doing >> and he's about to get a multi he's about to get a seven figure airrop. Um and dude I think we just ape like 50 bands on launch on this thing. I think that's I think it's literally hyperlquid trade 2.0. Like I think the second it goes live we are we we we should be buying. Um >> but these guys have VCs. There's a big difference between this and Hyperlid like

>> but like it's not like VC is going to be able to dunk you know nuke it on day one. They're gonna the VCs will be okay. So here's the deal. My thesis is that the VCs that are in >> here's the deal >> will be buying it. They will be buying it on launch to like hype it up to make it like go after Hyperlid and the the liquid funds which have no exposure to hype will buy this as their next hype. And this thing will launch probably higher than Hype did. So it'll launch at like 4, 5 billion maybe. And this thing is going to trade 10, 20, 30 billion quick. And Hype is going to probably go higher before then. We'll see.

But this thing should trade like half of Hype's FTV. So that puts it right now, if we're not doing the John Char burn 45%. That puts it at 25 billion. It's going to launch, I think, at less than 10. So, I think there's an easy 2x here with size if we're getting at the second it launches. Like, literally, I want to be jamming it the second it launches. And that's what I'm going to do. That's my That's my plan. And I'm telling everyone about it right now. And that's the plan. That's what I'm going to do. And that's what we did on Hype. And Hype's at $50.

And it's We got it at $25 in size. I think we can get a 5x in size on lighter. What do you think? >> Do you approve the usage of your capital? >> I look I it makes sense. I I do. I I just don't think you're going to >> Well, a 2x in the way that you describe it actually makes sense. >> Like I think if you around like five bill, bro, we get 20 bill. >> It's just not It's just not as lucrative as hype.

of course case because it launched so low >> and people but it didn't launch that I mean it did launch low comparatively but it was more about it was the first of its kind and nobody knew what was possible and what was coming whereas now everyone their mother is familiar with what hyperlid has done so they're going to be familiar with what lighter can do >> you know you're saying it it's derisked a lot of the investors from coming in >> it is not So con it's not so like I think there's going to be more capital trying to do the same strategy that I just kind of said basically.

Um look I I also um I also think people are kind of like chasing like Aster Lighter. >> Yeah. as a means of because they missed hype and they have that FOMO and now they >> but lighter is like legit the next kind of trade for it. I think >> I could see that. I could see like like we have a nice hyperlquid position. I could understand us trimming that and chasing this for higher beta on the per market. But I think you I think just in general there's only I just think Hyperlid's still the best.

And so ultimately like the capital does return home to the best product. >> If this thing is doing similar volume, >> yeah, we'll have to see, bro, because they also have zero fees. >> So if lighter comes on and undercuts Hyperlquid >> and we're going to trade zero fees cuz you you like we're just going to undercut you. That could be really sketchy for hype. >> Yeah, that Arthur had mentioned that too. We got to get this guy in the show. Rob, we we got like five or six people that we could have got a token that we'll get on virtual. So, let's see. We've got Should we shout him out?

>> Nah, we're good. Quick little Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Come on. No. Yeah. Come on. Tom Lee Paulo Big Digital. [Music] Couple more pack ETH plus AI. Let's just put ETH next to the most hype thing possible. Call it a [ __ ] strategy. >> Yeah, Joseph Shalom was a was a fun conversation.

Is that Luca? It's my boy Luca from MZ. Absolute character. Went on a hike. Like not just a hike, dude. Like a weekl long expedition through the Alps. It was a race. >> Wow. >> Towards a juice, something like that. and uh did like slept for like 30 minutes at a time and raced through the Alps the week. >> Damn, Token was lit, dude.

[Music] >> Yeah, F1 this weekend. Conferences were great. I don't know, dude. I was I almost put out a tweet that was like conferences in the bare market over conferences in the bull market. Like I don't think there's much deal flow that I would have got out there. Maybe there is, but it's all so hyped up right now. Um I get like the brand presence which I think that we had which was nice. Here's here's Mantel's mixer looks pretty dope.

Nice. But like I'm just dude we we got so much good deal flow from conferences in the Bay and then the early bowl versus like what we're going to get now. I guess there's like important meetings and stuff but um no, I really I really enjoyed the way that we we went about this one. I went out there, I knew exactly what I was getting into each day. There was no like downtime really. It was just go record content and then go back and recover, which is exactly what I think is the most productive use of time.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's not your first rodeo, you know. >> Exactly. So I think it was useful. It was it was useful and it was productive from that standpoint. But over the next couple days like you know I was there Monday, Tuesday in Singapore. I was doing podcast all day those two days. Wednesday and Thursday were like the actual conference days. It would have been like going to side events and like potentially randomly running into people. And that's what you end up getting is you don't like Wednesday and Thursday like people are like oh you know like let's meet up or like we're going to this event maybe we'll see you there. It's like >> maybe I'll see you there isn't really like a business strategy

>> like let's go let's get let's get something done. Let's get something on the books. Let's make it happen. And if we don't have like a reason or a purpose there's a lot more productive things that we could be doing. I mean it looks so dope though. >> Been in the market for the past eight years. We have around 15 million users so far. We have a presence in 200 plus countries. We thought about all these things. That's why >> Coin W. I don't know what it is. I've never heard of it. >> Product to add it on our platform. So we launched Prop W. We launched GemW. We launched >> Yo sick drop.

They were doing tattoos at the event. That's crazy. Yeah. >> Wow, dude. Yes, sir. Cold. This industry. Dude, this industry, man. >> Dude, so good. So good. That guy's in one of the bubbles with the money flying everywhere, >> I think. So, Coinbase was out there, obviously. submit a project to to get listed.

>> Base had a house out there, I guess. >> Space coin. >> Spacecoin. >> So, you want to ape lighter? >> Yeah, on launch. I do want to ape lighter on launch. Wow. This is live from the afterparty right now. This is right now in Singapore. You know where I would be, Rob. >> Yo, >> dude, that's >> I don't know.

>> This is Mando. Went to Korea. All I have to show is this autistic video of me on a hike. and love a great deal of like a massive amount of thinking. >> Korea was awesome. Soul is S tier city. >> Gone into sex without purpose. >> I don't have audio here. What is Elon talking about? >> Dude, you got to pull out. >> Maybe I can. >> Which which is actually quite a silly action. >> No, control doesn't have audio. >> Sex is a silly action in the absence of procreation. >> So why are you doing it?

>> What is >> sex? It's pretty obscure. >> The absence of procreation. >> I'm Christina and this is my friend Vicki. >> Crypto Twitter when they cash out next year. >> Uh, >> this is you finally getting a girlfriend. >> I'd like to invite you both to come with me to a >> to come where Spanish [ __ ] Leo Leo, what's going on, brother? What about is there a long list of >> Here we go. Kathy Wood podcast >> you believe in or is it actually >> this looks like it's at her place.

>> It's really only a handful so far. >> Oh, Kathy is the other one. >> I'm gonna text our ARC peeps right now. >> Now, >> yeah, Kathy, Tom, Lee, Paulo, >> these trades are public. So, I can I can tell you our exposures are Bitcoin, Ether. We're finally able to get an acceptable from a regulator's point of view way to play and we chose Bitmine immersion and in the >> Kathy's aping bit mine >> is the third one talk about that as well in terms of its role uh that >> another bullish thing uh Joseph Shalom >> on the podcast you know I asked him like hey your stock is currently trading at a discount to NAV

>> like what are you going to do about that and he's like, "Oh, we got cash." >> Oh, don't worry. We're straight. >> So, like the thing was that like when when it was trading at a discount, they were going to like sell the shares and then, you know, or or excuse me, sell the spot, right? So, they were going to have to sell ETH to like reby the shares and like push it back up higher >> to equilibrium, but they didn't sell the ETH. They just used the cash >> to buy the shares to push uh push it back up. >> Zcash was $30 when this was dropped. privacy token.

>> Man, you know, part of this has got to be that um >> the partnership with Near >> Dude, we're going to get them on the show as well. By the way, >> wake up one day. >> Zcash pretty soon. >> Financial privacy is important to them. >> Yeah, this is Barry Sobert. Big week Barry >> bullish. >> Super fascinating. Let's see where it all plays out. It's complicated to get your head around because it is very to anything else. And um I've always found that you got >> I got audio on control now.

>> Even though you've been dead wrong on Zcash so far. >> Dead wrong on Zcash Paul >> well before the next five years and say look how Rene was. >> Oh my gosh. This guy >> on Twitter and say it's got to be >> stand up for a sec. >> All right. Good to see >> the only thing I preach is stop being so hedonistic, man. Literally just once you make it, once you get a bunch of money, do not waste your life being >> Gy. You just smoke [ __ ] sigs on stream all day. We love you, man. >> Go look at a [ __ ] Charlie Kirk pot or something.

>> Charlie Kirk had everything. >> They got like xxs playing on the back of this >> shortterm life or something. >> Guess doesn't understand L2's miles. >> If at any point >> I think he does everyone is over. Yeah, I think Austin understands L2s. >> He's saying that there's centralized L2s because they have a single sequencer and then there's a a distributed set of rollups. And if you have one roll up that wins, >> like a base has 95% of the market share, then double zero isn't really effective for for roll-ups. But if you have a bunch of L2s that are doing well, then it then it is helpful to connect those L2s and make a more >> more consistent Ethereum.

>> Yeah, exactly. of incomeality. >> Here here you go talking about income inequality. >> Oh yeah. Yacht and I got super philosophical >> capitalism right and first of all I'm a pro capitalist. So that's not an indictment to say I'm against capitalism. It's the issue around when you acrew capital and you have it then it doesn't get distributed. It compounds I mean in a very simple way right. So if you are born with wealth and you just have an investment manager manage your wealth for you. Frankly you don't have to do much. sinners and one of the reasons why is because the government and the politicians around the world have not been very judicious in their use of the money that is in the system.

So we used to consider money as in cash as a store of value, right? And you know you see an example of that quasi experience of a store of value. It's not truly store of value. But you look in Japan. So Japan probably the master and the king of QE has essentially engineered an economy in Japan. >> I love yacht. He's so smart. >> Yes, it's inflated to the rest of the world. But within Japan, the cost of everything is roughly the same. So you go to sort of, you know, and inflation just started. But really for the longest of times you could buy you know a soft drink like for those people who've been in Japan um you know >> just centralized sequencer is wrong >> village or something and you buy a soft drink.

>> Yeah. I I feel you Miles. Look >> there's always nuance in these conversations. It's hard to get it done in 45 minutes. >> My buying number even if the government on the back is subsidizing and doing other stuff but at the end of the day you as a person don't feel that. Therefore even though salary increments are low and general income hasn't increased overall everyone feels stable. The USDM was in partnership with Athena, but it's not a USD rapper. It's USDTV, right? >> It's actually anything. So, like it'll start as USDTV. So, like that's that's the flexibility we have, right? And the criticism you get is like, oh well, bro, you're just looking at T bill yields.

What happens when they compress as like rates continue to get cut on the back end? We can actually at a whim like switch over to USD whenever like rates get cut and then like >> Mega East new stable coin is actually can be dynamic on the back, >> which I'm super bullish on. It's going to actually give Mega E something to uh get revenue from to be able to use for their token >> which no other L2 really has right now. >> Uh flexibility in a downtrending market. >> They make up 13% of the population. >> What up? It's we're out here token 249 Singapore. Check this out. What is that? What is that? What is that? >> I got one legend Alpine. Check this out. We got Ian Rogers here. What's up? What's up? I'm super excited uh to come to the Ledger Open October 23rd, 2025 in

Paris. Yes, you heard it here first. Well, maybe not first, but it we'll say it's a first. >> Yeah, dude. Ledger's hosting an event in Paris. >> Coinw is sex. The short thing is TLDDR the quants are cracked. We have uh team uh who are just obsessed with getting used >> is like a new um nook and cranny to understand, you know, why did >> haven't they been in block? >> Yeah, they're a new I think it's a different one. I think it's a new um >> all these like onchain. >> So many sexes, bro. It's hard to know. secret sauce. The quans are quanting.

>> Uh to give the >> quants are quanting. Got to love that. >> I think is crypto ultimately >> channel is pretty good >> or are the banks going to >> I think >> dude responds to responds to Tucker's Tucker Carlson's claim faking being gay. It's kind of hilarious. >> Yeah, I saw this. >> See the you see the news recently the Tucker Carlson statement. He's never agreed to interview, but I'm gonna ask him like some very specific questions about gay sex and see if he can even answer.

>> He said that you are basically fake gay and you've created this persona to appease the woke mob. >> Tuck Carson claims Peach Buddha Judge isn't really gay. >> He was dating Mr. Fus. That's totally fake. He's not gay at all. Smart. So I said that on the air offended. >> Yeah, I think Titan is a Dex aggregator weird way. I guess it's >> I think they're expanded. >> I spent a good chunk of my life believing knowing that like being gay would would be a career ender for me. I had two parts of my career when I was in my 20s. public service and being interested in in public office and being in the military, both of which could have ended because I was gay. And honestly, I don't like thinking about it now but >> Tucker Carl is a big Bitcoin guy just

like >> and I would have done like you would have done a conversion therapy. I mean, if I thought it would have worked the state of mind that I was in at a certain time in my life. >> All right, dude. >> He's 5 a.m. >> This is cool. >> Um, securityize partnered with FG Nexus to natively tokenize its public shares on Ethereum. Nice. Yeah, we're tokenized stocks. >> The first stock exchange opens in Amsterdam. 1884, Charles Dao creates the first stock index. >> Sick video.

>> 1971, the NASDAQ introduces electronically traded stocks. 1994, Erade pioneers online trading. >> I remember that baby. >> Mobile apps put >> that Erade baby. >> 2025, the first preferred equity to be tokenized onchain. Let's go >> capital markets. >> Dope video. Shout out to securitize. >> How can I get to reach with Bitcoin without getting lucky? The best way to get rich today is gambling. YOLO. That's not the best way to get. This is a way to get some ideas. We have to dude. I'm going to get that. You have to make it one time. Mark Moss investor on Twitter and leading Bitcoin commentator >> who breaks down finance on YouTube podcast and social media

decentralization all your videos. >> Arthur and I were I guess maybe it was just a few times but we were cursing on that one. We've been cursing today too. We got to bleed those out or else YouTube is going to cut the views. No, for real. >> They're going to restrict it. It's just it's not even them. They just shadow ban it. The algorithm picked it up and they put it behind a wall and it's not safe for children. And >> we already have it marked as not safe for children. >> You know the journey. >> But I think it's more than that. It's more than like children in a candy shop. It was just times. You know the whole book of liars poker talked about first Boston and solving just the competitive edes that we have between each other.

>> Yeah. But sometimes guess we were making so much money. Inadequate risk controls. We had inadequate knowledge of how we were the risk we were taking. This is a Black Rock CEO details how he lost 100 million, got fired, then built the greatest investment company in the world >> for making too much money because the amount of risk we were taking that make that type of money was probably not a great riskreward. But because there was no risk analytics, the firm actually gave me more capital to put more money to work. And then obviously in 1986, the second quarter after a record first quarter, we lost $und00 million.

And then the firm woke up to the amount of risk we were taking today. 100 million stock. >> Yeah, usually losing 100 million. >> That was a lot of money. >> Wake up to the risk. >> All right, Leo. I think we're all good here. Let's throw us back on. Uh it's been a good stream. We wanted to just keep this one nice and tight today. Um Rob, welcome back. I think that's it. I don't have much else for anyone. We'll see you guys tomorrow. Uh we should have, you know, a couple more guests tomorrow and then be back to full swing Monday. Um yeah, guys. Thanks for thanks for tuning in. Peace out.