The Rollup TV: Thursday, August 28th

Transcript

[Music] down. Heat. Heat. [Music] Heat.

[Music] Heat. Heat. Heat. [Applause] [Music] Hey, heat. Hey, heat.

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[Applause] Heat. Heat. N. [Music] What's going on, guys? Welcome back to the Rollup TV. Uh, it's Thursday. How you doing, Rob?

I think we got the closing of remarks up for some reason putting the uh putting the putting the US GDP on chain. Yeah, I woke up at like 5:00 a.m. and I saw that uh chain or u pith had pumped so much and I was like what's going on? Yeah.

Rob, I think uh I think we just need to take a I think we need to take take a redo here on the start here. Um let's start this over for a sec. All right. Um all right, guys. Welcome back to the Rob TV. It is Thursday, August 28th. Uh we are live today. Uh we have some awesome guests. We've got our friends from Ready. We've got Michael from Framework. And we've got uh our guys from the uh A Foundation, A Labs, Colton. Um and yeah, guys, we're we're going to be talking about the uh next uh kind of phase of

onchain happenings, which is uh today we've got the >> Yeah. All right. We're going to just flip the standby, guys. We'll be back in just one second. Let's go to Stembo.

[Music] Hey, [Music] hey hey. [Music] All righty, we're back. Um, welcome back

to the Rogue TV. Thursday, August 28th. Uh, coming to the end of August here. Couple more days. Uh pretty cool announcements today uh with the um US GDP. So looking to kind of see what's going on there. Uh talk talk about that with Chain Link and Pith. Um and yeah, Rob, like I said, I woke up um and chain link and well, Pith had really moved a lot, 50% higher. Chain link had kind of got a tiny pump. Um, and yeah, looking to see kind of understand what happened. So, I saw that you put out a tweet about this. Maybe you could just uh roll through kind of what you saw. I didn't get a chance to to look at

it, but what is your takeaway here? >> Yeah. Um, I they're they're embracing crypto. Crypto is a leading initiative for the US government. I think that's pretty clear. Um Howard Lutnik, the secretary of the Department of Commerce, is taking this and spearheading it and championing it. And every time he gets into a room with Trump, he's reminding Trump that you are the crypto president. And so he was in in a room with Trump, there was press there, there was media there. He said, "President Trump, you're the crypto president. That's why we're publishing federal economic data on chain." And this was part of a broader initiative. Um, the US revised its quarter 2 GDP numbers to 3.3%.

Getting GDP over 3% a quarter is a primary initiative of this administration. There are some other components to this, but it's called the 333 plan. Bessent has talked about this. We want to bring inflation under 3%. We want to bring GDP over 3% and we want to get the percent of GDP to the national debt at 3%. It's currently at seven. And so this is part of a general economic plan for this administration. Specifically with regards to bringing this data onchain, uh we saw the government released this data through oracles. They did it through chain link and through pith. uh chain link and pith brought this data onchain and published it on several blockchains including ETH

mainet uh Salana arbitum polygon posos and optimism you know once the oracles have this data the oracles already have the distribution across all the chains so that part that is the easy part it's the connection between the government databases which are legacy and you know very very protected getting the connection between those government databases and these oracle That's the tough part and that's what they were able to do. They already did it. They published the revised quarter 2 metric on chain. I'll tell you what I'm most excited about and why this is particularly interesting. Not only is it a slippery slope for more data, I think the use cases of having this government data on chain are massive. Think about

prediction markets for economic data. No more revising job numbers, revising GDP. We're going to have real-time prediction markets that are going to be more accurate indic indications of what the actual data is. We're not going to have to go back and play with the job numbers or the inflation indices. We can start to have RWA products onchain that is fed data through these oracles price feeds by by this economic data. They're going to be they're going to be backed they're going to be um priced by this economic data and we can start to have uh options and financial products built around this economic data.

>> Very interesting. Yeah. I mean I I I remember when we when we went to that um conference in DC in 2016 together and um the thing the idea that that we were like having was like uh doing voting on chain. Um, >> yeah, dude. That was a that was a whirlwind back then. But but uh >> I think well I I'd like I'm glad you brought that up because I still think about that quite a bit and I think that is the endgame here with adoption from government institutions on chain. the what the the slippery slope here and it's a positive one is that now that we have GDP on chain and we've established the connectivity between government databases and blockchains we can start to just load up these chains with data

and then we can create all those use cases but the the cool part is now we can have insight into how money is being spent at the federal level I don't know about you but I pay taxes you pay taxes I'd imagine >> you drop that on me like I don't pay taxes dude. >> Can't speak for everyone. You pay taxes. I pay taxes. But wouldn't you want to know what >> this guy's on one this morning? >> Our representatives are spending our tax dollars on. They're We know that they're, you know, >> 20% is going to Ukraine, 30% is going to military spending. This much is going to uh food stamps and government, you know, programs. But what if we could see the breakdown dollar by dollar? We could understand the flows. This is what Elon

wanted to do with Doge. We didn't know that it was going to, you know, transgender dogs in Gaza, right? No one would have voted for that if we knew it. >> Now with Doge as well, it's on chain. >> These transparent mechanisms for governments, they all sound great in practice, but I would push back on the actual like one, how much it changes any real behavior. Perhaps it does. If all their actions are transparent, then perhaps there are further there more repercussions to the actions that government officials will take. But I don't think that posting the data on chain. I think it's more of just building this historical database and kind of doing so in an experimental fashion rather than like there being

some sort of outsized change in the behavior of the consumer of the but I suppose just having the public information on record that is verifiably persistent over the next five years such that like it can't be changed in history because like that's one big crazy thing that I've been wrapping my head around is like how history is going to be able to be changed based on like who has control over the digital footprint of the entire world. Um, right. So, >> that's a but it's the tip of the iceberg, man. We're going to build financial products around this. We're going to build applications around this.

And to just to close the loop on on that >> that idea that we brought up back in 2018, 2016 in DC, it was the idea that you can now have efficient competi. You can have actual competition between these government contracts. Yeah, it was the idea that someone if you wanted to fix a pothole, something as simple as a pothole, you could bid on that in your local community versus having to wait for the regional state to send down the contractor and go through the whole loophole. Think about, you know, these guys that are trying to build in the California after the California wildfires. I've heard they're having a ton of trouble getting permits just to clean up their land. Imagine, and maybe it's because you need to have a

regulated, you know, uh, uh, like collection service to come in and clear it and then ultimately rebuild. But why can't we make that a democratized process? Why can't I, if I have a a construction company or if I have these licenses, let me bid on that. Don't close the circle of competition to this inside group that's close to some regulators in Washington. >> Let's just zoom through these ones real quick. Um, actually, you know what? Why don't we get ETMR up here and go through some of these topics with him? Uh >> we'll go through the rest of these later.

>> Yeah. Or or yeah, we can go through them later. I think ETMR is ready to come up u from Ready, formerly known as Argent. My first DeFi wallet ever. Uh I remember using that uh all with Compound um and that sort of kind of yield farming uh era. So ETMR is in the back. Good good to see him up um and back on on the show. >> You used Argent before Metavas. Yes, on my phone. >> Argent was the first uh was was the first that I used on my phone. So, yeah, I mean they're doing a lot of interesting uh things with regards to uh Starknet and some of the Bitcoin ecosystem. I just I'm just curious like his his takes on some of the DeFi stuff that that's happening. So, uh we'll get

up. Let's bring him up here now. Uh he's in the back. And uh yeah, let's have our first guest. Let's have some fun today. Tamar, welcome to the show. Good to have you back on. I think we last spoke about some of the the ready cards you guys had. Excited today to hear about some of your takes on DeFi. Good to see you again man. >> Hey, Andy. Hey, Robbie. Great for having me again. >> Yeah, man. >> Welcome to the show. >> Welcome back. How how you doing? How's the last couple weeks been?

>> I'm good. Look, I think everyone in the term space is pretty happy. Um, I moved to Buenos for a few months. So, don't complain. >> No, >> I'm learning. I'm learning hard. Well, good to see you, man. It's good to have you on. I'm looking forward to Buenosidis myself. It's going to be a fun a fun week down there.

>> It will be amazing for the connect. Yeah. >> Yeah. One thing I've heard about Buenosares and and there's a lot of anticipation for the conference, but it's it's that people are actually using crypto down there. Like maybe you've been there, you know, only for a little while, but I'm curious. Have you had any local experiences with crypto? either stable coins or you know generally using this technology with locals while you're in the area. >> I mean it's totally different at least in Europe and UK. Yeah, it's been only four weeks. Um crypto is part of people's lives I would say. Uh is and that's why I'm here. We we are making a big push for ready uh our nail bank product here in Argentina and people want any way to access dollar but

I think the root cause is more non-Argentinian control dollar um let's say that way so having access to some form of dollar uh that is uh you know not in the control of the government uh there's a big fear here of that a lack of trust and crypto is in some way the uh the easiest way to do that So it's really an important part. You you have to understand people are flying to the US to open bank accounts. Uh opening a crypto wallet and have some USDT or USDC is quite easier. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I there's a there's a street actually called Florida Avenue or Florida Street in Buenosidis where there's a lot of people who will go around saying comio comio comio. It's like Spanish for change. And basically

you can go there with different forms of of currency and get uh Buenosades currency uh pesos there as well. >> Yeah, I you you get your qu I have my man now my contact I WhatsApp I discuss exchange rate and you can actually send them crypto. So you can literally send them dollar in crypto and they will give you uh pesos cash or pesos in your if you have a local bank account. So yeah, it's really a totally normal way of doing things. >> Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. It's really interesting. Um, cool, man. Ear, I wanted to get your takes on some of the evolution of DeFi today. Uh, specifically with what you guys are building, uh, but also just more broadly, we're we're really entering DeFi's institutional era. I was saying

prior to you hopping on that, um, you know, Argent was my first crypto wallet, like onchain, I guess, uh, back in 20 early 2020 or late 2019 or something. Um and since then I mean it's really changed the entire space as a whole. Um from your purview what is the what is the uh current era of DeFi described as right we've gone through kind of a DI 1.0 2.0. It feels like we're kind of in the third iteration of of using DeFi now. a lot of institutional focus, you know, kind of when you're looking at the at the DeFi e ecosystem right now, which players have really stood out to you who've done well, what kind of era are

we in? What is the new focus for DeFi? Kind of like, you know, lay the land for us a bit if you will. >> So, I I would say what I see in DeFi uh you mentioned institution. What I see at radio for institution is a bit the same uh the same shift which is we are starting to see adoption of defy from people who don't really think about it as defy or don't really have a wallet for us defy was always you get a crypto wallet you connect to adapt you interact with it now you see defy or defy liquidity moving into uh connecting to uh you know non-crypto uh um I would say marketplaces in some way.

So when you see Coinbase for example integrating more for for uh for their Bitcoin loans uh you are interacting with a very centralized front entity a centralized product but behind the scene they will leverage DeFi just because it's a more efficient way. Um and I compare that to what we do now because um ready is becoming much more of a bank. It stays totally non-custodial. does the difference but as a user they will not think about it as a wallet as being onchain they will not know um and we connect we just decided that the most efficient rail to provide them those services is to leverage DeFi so I think that's really the change where D5 is moving back to really becoming protocols

what they want it to be and not deal with front end to uh they're moving from a place where they were both the app and the protocol to really being the the source of liquidity for any kind of third party application and whether it's good or not, those big distribution comes from very centralized and more traditional players. Um, but I think it's still a big win for DeFi to to fuel those players. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the Ethereum people were pretty upset about these uh recent L1 announcements from these institutional players, >> you know.

>> Yeah. I think we saw Yeah. the between stripe uh I I circle I think made the announcement people talk about the Google one right now but it's an old one so >> yeah I think that's look we have seen that phase in the early days it was the the permission chain I I don't see that yet as a signal I see that as big players playing with chains uh and then we'll see where it leads will they stay L1 will they become L2s will will it still even exist in a few years uh I think It's overall it's good that everyone wants to experiment with uh with with crypto. Uh it's an overall win. I would rather it being an L2 on Ethereum. But

>> yeah, until we see what's their product, we don't know. You know, there's a lot of reason for Stripe for example to want me privacy uh to offiscate the data from from third parties. And I could see why they would do it that way. Um, also the kind of scaling they need is probably the scale that we don't really have today on L2s, but I'll wait to see what is their L1 before uh making a judgment. >> Yeah, I mean, when I think about some of the uh products that have gotten success in in the space as of recently, obviously these L1s have been the big announcement. We'll see how those kind of come out uh out of the gates. Um, stable coins, right? stable coins yield.

It does seem like there's there's a lot of demand for for just kind of yield products, stable coins in general from institutions. You you know, you mentioned this NEO bank product that you guys are looking to build. Um, right, and I think this all kind of comes along to this revenue meta thing that that that I tweeted out some months ago. Um, you know, has your perspective as a builder shifted towards wanting to build this infrastructure, this wallet infrastructure to now being like, oh, well, look, we need to generate uh, you know, revenue. We need to build something that has consistent user bases. We need to kind of build this like rather than like I feel like the whole space has gone from like this open- source kumbaya vibe to now like a practical era like crypto is entering

its practical era. Like what's your take on the practical era of crypto? So I I think there is a change. There are few changes. I mean if I take our case a bit different I think we're just back to the very original vision. You have to realize we started thinking about that in 2017. Uh and what we built back in 2018 was what we are building now but we realized was not possible. We couldn't connect to trade to banking rail cards. None of what we wanted to do was possible. Scaling was impossible. So we couldn't hide fees etc. uh and so now we are more going back. I think there's a shift clearly um of course with the all I think we are realizing everyone

realizing it to be a sustainable business the crazy valuation you could get on any random token uh is not totally over but partially I think over and we judge protocols differently um I think the the biggest shift probably for me is more on the wallet side I don't think anyone believes that a billion people will have a chrome extension uh as their wallet. I don't think people will use a wallet. I think they will use an app, a product to build to have several set certain use cases, but they will think about it as their trading app or their per app or their uh gambling app for prediction market. Uh and yeah, it will just be an app powered by onchain protocols rather than generic wallet where people will

connect to hundreds of DAPs. I think this is clearly changing. Um you me yeah you mentioned many trend I think stable coin is probably the the best Trojan horse out there we see uh totally non-crypto companies uh um you know embracing them that they are clearly one of the big winner whether it's Tetter or Circle but even the like of Agura doing very well now um so I think there are several categories of winners uh in this change uh the one that are for me the most impressive is probably have morpho that are both really cryptonative protocols but at the same time they are really uh taking advantage of the adoption by more

institutional uh players >> that's really good to see >> we're we're going to hear from Colton from a a little bit later in the stream but I I wanted to kind of understand your perspective as you've shifted from one of these browserbased crypto wallets to more of this neoank finance application and and it's still the portal to access most of the DeFi and crypto applications, but it has evolved. Earlier today, we saw Rabbi kind of hint at an announcement or a possible integration of Hyperlid Pers. Are you guys also considering something like this, some sort of integrated either Perpetual's offering or another decentralized exchange offering and in general incorporating more of these DeFi integrations deeper into the

ready app? So the I would say our framework for us is first we think in term of wallet versus application. Okay. >> A wallet is a generic uh signer that will connect to any DAP their job is to hold funds sign uh to connect to that and then you have application which is an end to end use case whether it's trading whether it's per etc. So that's the first shift happening. Uh then within that we think in term of segment we have two products ready is definitely a um much more mass market segment probably starting with high earner anyways high earner not yet rich uh where we want 100% crypto abstraction

uh to the point that they might know it's they might not know it's a stable coin uh it's very focused on simplicity for yield for borrowing with card and bank account and rewards like competing I would say with MX where I think by end of the year you want to be at a point where you download this and it feels like a totally web two trade nail bank product uh but then you have a totally different segment uh which is called that ready pro ready genen that's something that is still more being researched evolving because our wallet de facto we have this ready wallet with a no as an extension uh that by definition is more the gen audience who who uses that is not norm people um And this is of course where we explore

more those kind of integration per um and you know prediction market etc. And so I think it's just a natural evolution. Every wallet did it for trading. Uh I think they will realize they need to do it for use cases beyond trading. Uh and so yeah we are but we are thinking this as different segment. I don't want to get per and to be a super complex project that no one will understand. Uh I want everyone every unbanked person in Europe. So all those people that have been unbanked because they they're having crypto. In the US is changing. In Europe it's massive. You have crypto you get unbanked. Maybe it's not the right term but you get censored by banks. Uh in Argentina you have another type of being

unbanked and access to dollar. I want all those people to have access to something that feels like a a revolute uh with much better reward where everything is in their control and not ours. >> Yeah, man. I mean, you guys never really had the app store problems that a lot of crypto apps had, right? Like you guys were always on the store. >> No, we're just good at dealing with Apple. Uh we we have Yeah, it's hard. I get a weekly call by a founder to ask us how to deal with that. Uh it's it's difficult. Um it's feasible but it's difficult. But there's just also common sense. There are stuff that really makes

it much harder. Anything around NFT you have to understand the business model of Apple is in a purchase for digital content uh uh where they take 30%. Their business model is not to take uh a percentage of your financial transaction on Robin Hood or Coinbase. And so if you touch at anything close to their business model, so NFTTS, anything that feels or looks like a game asset, then they will really bite you. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I I've just heard so many horror stories of people trying to get their apps on there, getting them taken down, you know, letters, seasoned assist, all these different things. So, uh I definitely hear you on the vision of wanting to try to build build uh

build an application that can solve this this banking problem, this access to dollars, etc. Uh a and you just so happened to choose to do that on Starknet uh at least in this kind of current iteration of ready. You know, I'm curious within the Starknet ecosystem, what what what applications are you guys using in DeFi to power some of the yield uh with the Neo Bank or with the Argent card or sorry the Ready card. Um how how has that uh been shaping up? >> Yeah. So in ready really you don't think about it as chains. Users will not see any of that probably by the end of the year. Again there's no chain. They don't care. It's a back end for us. uh it is

actually probably the best back end you can think of right now in term of uh price uh throughput uh settlement time etc. Uh then there is what do we offer to the user and again here we really want to abstract all that that I think today it's just easy to do it on stark net for us because actually there's really good source of yield because there are incentives uh as simple as that um then I think over time there are there are source of yield that will probably always stay on stark net so for example bitcoin yield will I suspect will be on will be the best on stark net for the foreseeable future because they're launching uh bitcoin staking. So you will secure the starknet network with bitcoin.

Therefore you will have native yield uh and a lot of their strategies focused on bitcoin yield which is very hard to get bit on yield anywhere else. So this for example will likely stay but then we're also launching products that will abstract that for example for east if yield is on L1. I mean by definition staking or even restaking is happening on L1. Our vault will take care of that for the user. And then you have something like USDC. I would say right now probably the best yield is on L1. So our users will be able to have yield for morpho for example. Doesn't matter for them that the back that it's running on on on stark net or not. Uh or they will be able to maybe have a mix of L1 stark net and b yield. Uh again in ready we

our job is to offer the best financial product for the user. They shouldn't care of any of that. And so the the product we don't see it as a crosschain wallet. We see it as crosschain financial products. Uh and if tomorrow the best yield is on some alternative L1 will go we'll go find it there. >> Makes sense. Makes sense. Um I'm curious. Do you guys plan to get a lot of these users from Buenosades, from Argentina into the Ready app while while you're there or like who who's your target target uh ideal, you know, consumer demographic?

>> Yeah. So, the reason I moved here uh for a few months is we we know everyone wants to build a crypto bank. Uh that doesn't mean much. A new bank just means a financial product. Basically, there are 10,000 banks uh in the world. uh everyone has different segment and I don't think anyone really knows where crypto can add the most value. We have our hypothesis and we're starting with higher earners with lot of opportunity to differentiate and to literally beat AMX on on the reward model. You mentioned yield earning stable co things like that. So you can hold cash and start earning. It's quite unique to crypto. uh you need to have a banking license to offer that in traditional

world and that would take a startup probably 10 years to get there. And so in Argentina we fell we have a single market with super high um adoption of new products. They have so low trust in existing institutions that they will try many things. High adoption of crypto and let's be honest it's easier for example with our card to first target crypto users. They already have crypto and today our bank accounts are not live yet. So easier to target a crypto user. So I have high high adoption of crypto, someone willing to try new products and then I have big high earner middle class segment. Um I have a big segment of people who want dollar which is a strength of crypto today. People who

wants to work for foreign companies and I have of course a population who super scared of inflation uh and suffer from inflation a lot and so I can test a lot of our hypothesis around segment in that single market. And if you uh I mean and you see some crypto products as you mentioned earlier having massive traction and so we are with our goal of I think we can really bring another magnitude more adoption because we're abstracting significantly more uh of the complexity there but realistically our biggest market now it's not Argentina I'm here to learn it's probably still UK US Europe uh and in four weeks we already found so many challenges with the card we are about to therefore issue a local part we will bring the FX pesos

USDC uh outside of the Visa Mastercard loop because it's an exchange that it's effect is very complex high volatility we will do much better basically by by bringing it on our side and hopefully at some point on chain uh and so all these pain points I'm here to figure out how to have really an end to end uh experience that beats any local products with the goal of probably by defcon we'll make announcements very specific to Argentina. >> It takes quite a bit to uh survive in crypto this long. You've been building, you know, since we've been around for our first crypto wallet. And so, what kind of advice or have you gotten any advice along the way like that that has

helped you survive in this industry? Um because we've certainly seen people crash out. What what uh is some advice that you you have gotten or you could provide to anyone who's building the industry now? So I think you're right. I think it's probably a miracle. We're still uh we are still there uh with high spirit. Uh I think people first need to understand they are not alone. Uh you know whether you're a wallet whether you know whether you have an L2 many L2s have have a rough time but they are not alone. It's really hard for everyone. And I think crypto is in search of the various you know areas of PMF basically. Where can crypto solve

problem? And I think over the past years we started finding some uh be you know I think having multiple funders is very important. I always said the more funders you have the more likely there's there's one of them that is positive on that day. You know the company died the day the two or three founders are bearish on the same day. uh I would say add new blood in your team you know don't be worry of losing it's so long you will lose people we have a very very high uh attrition rate retention rate at uh sorry retention rate at at at ready but I think a big new blood you get new people with very high energy uh and then we motivate everyone so uh numerical advice it's it's so so hard uh to keep uh yeah

especially in bare markets >> yeah what's Uh last thing here for you. What's the uh what's the kind of current vision for ready you know in six months where where do you want to be >> in six months? Pretty clear. in 6 months, a product that anyone uh that is not in crypto can can, you know, join without being scared of, you know, complexity uh transaction fees or even without having to to to learn about Vizu, Eubo, Moroave. So fully fully crypto abstracted product which was our original vision that has all the core building blocks of a of a NEO bank. will

have card, bank account, etc. Uh but also that has all the benefits of crypto. So especially around yield, we just launched uh loans in the app. So you borrow straight, not never sell your ease, never sell your bitcoin. Uh so I think we'll get so right now we've been busy adding adding and now we'll be busy over the next few months removing everything like hiding all that complexity. We'll be in a good place by end of year. Uh so I think six months is a good uh a good target. Awesome. Edomar, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate your hard work and generally being a steward for the industry. You've survived this far. Very Lindy so far, so we expect you to survive. Uh, and keep up the great work.

>> Yeah. >> Awesome. Thanks for seeing you in Buenosades man. >> I'll be there. I'll welcome everyone. And likewise, thanks for the roll up to be a steward of the industry. We love it. >> Appreciate it, man. Thank you, sir. >> Cheers. >> Cheers. See you in BA. BA is gonna be a a fun time, man. I'll tell you that. >> Oh, yeah. >> That's your next conference, right? Or well, I guess maybe you'll go to that. >> We have >> SmartCon and then uh the redacted one in September. That one's on the down.

>> Oh, yeah. We're cooking. You know that. You know, we're cooking, dude. >> All right, man. Well, we've got Michael up from Framework. Michael is also a plasma investor. curious about what what his takes are on that XPL pump on Hyperlid recently just general his thoughts around the state of the market investment focus uh maybe we'll start with some of the more broad stuff about framework uh and then get into into this first time having a one one of the framework guys on the show so looking forward to that uh and jamming with Michael we got a good bit of time here aotted so we'll get him up and uh and let's jump right right into it >> sounds good let's get Michael up. I saw let's see

>> what' you see Rob. Actually, let's just briefly touch on um on this Rabby stuff before Michael joins. >> I'm curious if they they're involved in Hyperlquid as well. Obviously, there's >> so Rabby hints at Hyperlid per swap integration. I mean, I think Phantom hit five billion dollars of volume um already in their integration in in about a month. So, I mean, I put out a tweet today that was like, "Look, if I'm Phantom, I'm I'm launching a stable coin." I don't know if that's actually going to happen, if that's a great idea. Just kind of was shooting from the hip to see what people's reaction was going to be, but yeah, clearly Rabby is wanting to get in on the Hyperlid train and kind of bring per into their into their UX. And if you go on Rabby, you

see like there's like the swap interface, which has like I think a 25 bips fee or maybe maybe even higher. I think Phantom has like an 80 bips fee. Um, so I mean it's very clearly this whole like distribution, user relationship, ownership endgame is playing out. It's just a matter of of kind of uh who has the best users for for this market. Like I feel like the rabbi users are probably very Ethereum focused. Perhaps they're better for um maybe higher value transactions, but maybe are less interested in perhaps they are. Uh whereas I think a lot of Phantom users are probably more Salana native. So perhaps more interested in the memes but also see per as a as a better way to kind of like gamble or trade quickly. Um so look I mean I think

all of these wallets are going to follow suit of Phantom of integrating some sort of per integrate prediction markets as well underneath it's just like this consistent building of of of the product suite. >> I I I don't know whether Phantom is going to launch a stable coin. I kind of think that's the best business model in crypto right now next to being an exchange. everyone and anyone can can go and launch a stable coin and probably get a a sliver of market share and do pretty well. Um, in Hyperlid's case, when they were integrating these per protocols, I saw an interesting stat. Phantom had five billion in in volume like you said and charged I forget exactly how much they made but then you had incilico trading from flood and he had seven billion in volume but half or

less of the fees that Phantom was able to generate on less volume and I think >> because they have this referral program >> well I think I think it's mostly because Phantom's users are are simply they're they're uh insensitive to the fees that they're being charged. because they're they're buying meme coins and they're like, "Look, I'm aping in. I'm getting in as quickly as possible. I don't really care about the marginal fee." >> Yeah. All right. Well, we we got Michael in the back. Uh I'm sure he has some takes on this and uh just, you know, other other kind of framework, ventures, thesis, ideas, stable coins, DATs, um you know, a a lot to cover today. So, let's get them up. Uh Michael, good to have you in the back. Good to have you on. First time on the show. Welcome,

man. >> Glad to be here. Thanks. Uh, thanks for that and uh, yeah, excited to chat all things related. >> Sweet, man. Well, it's it's your first time. We'd love to just get a quick intro about Framework, about kind of your growth story for those in our audience who don't know Framework. I'm sure a lot of us do. Uh, but just kind of how did you get involved? You know, what's Framework all about? What what's your thesis? Um, yeah, >> for sure. Yeah. I mean the the quick backstory is uh Vance and I started framework uh six years ago and uh in 2019 we kind of saw that there wasn't like an early stage venture fund going after the space um we had previously started um a startup in the space and and sold that and um really were looking

at the landscape and you know you didn't really have anyone that was going after specifically DeFi as like the first category um and so we launched our first fund in July of 2019 and and kind of like became known as the DeFi fund. Um it's kind of funny in that everybody sometimes we'll talk to investors now and they're like, "Oh, you guys are still investing in DeFi." It's like, well, DeFi never left. It's the only thing that matters right now anyways. Um and happy to talk more about that. But yeah, we we started in 2019 and um you we've raised uh three funds and we're uh we're continuing to invest heavily. uh excited about a bunch of themes and um yeah the the industry feels like it's at an inflection point right now. So it's

exciting. >> Yeah. I I'm curious how you would carve out DeFi because I think your definition might be broader than some some others like stable coins, RWAs, all of this is going to go into smart contracts on chain. Would you consider all this part of DeFi or generally how do you how do you define that category and and think about it scale? >> Yeah. So what I what I said with DeFi was like the 2019 definition of DeFi and like synthetics chain link the graph like like even back then chain link and the graph were considered DeFi, right? So the the the definition has morphed you know 14 different times. Um but no I think the what I mean by DeFi now is that blockchains are purpose-built

technology for value transfer. What I' I'd say we don't necessarily have a ton of evidence on yet is can can we or should we have data transfer be something that is adjudicated over a blockchain. But value transfer absolutely works. Is this a stable coin? Is it a treasury bond or bill? Um or or is this just a indogenous token? Um but like blockchains are built for that. That's all encompassing DeFi. So, I don't know. Maybe DeFi becomes financial services tech, but like it it's all kind of DeFi because it's, you know, it's homegrown from us.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm curious actually just on that, right? Because we saw the US Department of Commerce come out. They're going to publish this data, but what you're saying is that data transfer on blockchain isn't necessarily interesting in of itself. It's financial products. If we tokenize the GDP or or the PCE, then we can create financial products based on that data. That's when blockchain becomes significant and interesting. >> Totally. I mean, nobody really cares that we're that we're posting. >> I was trying to tell Rob that. I was like, it's not going to change anything.

It's just going to be like >> it's about the financial product that we build on on top of that. >> Yeah, >> precisely. Which is, you know, you want to go short long the US uh economy, you literally can do that on a purse market pretty soon. I mean, who knows whether or not that's going to happen, but like that's that's the part that matters. like I don't know client server computer architecture which is super boring stuff but like that's purpose-built for like communications and content right but a blockchain is is different and that we have trust and decentralization which is for value and I I think that's like how we separate the world you know philosophically maybe at framework but also with our investments and I think we're just going to continue to run with this whole value transfer element because in 2019 2020 when you know

people like our investors were saying, "Oh, I thought that you know, DeFi investments were over." It's like, well, A is just hitting its stride now. And like some of these platforms that have been around like Sky, formerly Maker, is just like now coming out of the Endgame thesis that it published two or three years ago. Like this stuff takes a really long time. And I was also talking with a friend about like the 20 or the the 1990s and like the 99 crash and then like the 2000s and there's so much congruency to what has happened so far here which is like DeFi started it crashed but like you had to have the crash for things to actually get to where they are now which is productive and I think a lot of people got blown up

in the process but like the Amazons and the Googles were started pre- crash and they're going to continue forward. Yeah, I think that's a really cool framework for like thinking about it, no pun intended, right? Because I I a lot of people are thinking short term right now about, you know, is the top end in the next three to six months like are we going to blow off this and that? A lot of us have PTSD. You know, Rob and I started a venture fund like a year and a half ago. Just Prop Cap did a lot of uh a lot of stuff in like late 22 throughout 23 like a lot of like the bigger kind of infra names for this cycle. M Athena, which is like still scratching our heads on that. Um, yeah.

Right. So, you know, you can't you can't catch them all. But now, I mean, even, you know, if we're going to kind of zoom in into this like lens here of thinking about like.com style and like the progression of like the mag seven today, kind of reflecting that lens into into crypto. I mean, you you had a a a clip I saw from permissionless talking about kind of like the mag seven of cryptos being formed slowly. um you know and I start to kind of think about like okay is the last you know 1015 years of venture in in that vintage of crypto founders is that where the mag seven's going to come from or now that the industry is like really starting to get institutionalized and legitimized you know is the next vintage of founders going to be the mag sevens of of crypto

and so you know we've kind of put a big pause on doing um that that many early stage checks for the last like six months valent crazy. Comp went crazy. Um, the liquid we knew was going to do well. Obviously, prop cap weap we have a bit less size but more flexibility. But I'm just curious like from your perspective about this this kind of lens like you know is this next vintage going to be better than the last? How are you thinking about the like the venture cycles? You know we had the the L1's, the DeFi, you know the L2s, the infra.

Now we're kind of into the apps if if you will. just like holistically how you're thinking about the different vintages where we're kind of at in the venture cycle and I would appreciate a longer term view because I do find that a lot of us get too zoomed in >> for sure. Um hopefully it's not too long term. uh it still has to be relevant and valuable. But um I I I think the uh look the the like 30,000 foot perspective is um that fundamentals are ultimately ultimately what matter and there's b there's basically two categories of investment that you can make which is L1 and then broadly let's say like anything that's built on top of L1 and a lot of this is going to be apps maybe like

there's an L2 component but anything that's built on top of an L1 has ultimately got to be um valued based off of the fundamental flows and and fundamentals is is profit cash flow and flowing back to a token. Now, if you're lucky enough to be considered an L1, what what I think of with that is that you have this multi-asset capability basically smashed into one singular asset, which is like like let's take Ethereum. You know, there's there's kind of like cash flows and staking yield that you can generate from it. It's a store of value. Um, but it's also, you know, a medium of exchange that people are using to pay for things. Um, it's a

collateral asset that people will use to borrow against. Like there there's so many different ways of looking at that single asset. You can't just look at it as a single single thing. Um, and so that's kind of like how we separate. It's like L1 huge outcomes extremely hard to be considered a legit L1. And then apps, it's sort of like you're building businesses on chain. And so I I think you know if we were to also put this back into like the 90s and 2000s parlance in the 90s everybody went public or many people went public based off of an eyeballs metric like revenue wasn't even or profit wasn't even considered and I think if we look back on DeFi 1.0 know we're going to ultimately compare that to like TVL and

I think TVL itself is done all TVL is not created equal just like every single eyeball doesn't necessarily translate to profit on the bottom line for every company and I think we got to like move away from that broadly and um if you have like a really successful business model and and profitability with that TVL that's great but it's got to translate to the bottom line and so I think we're kind of moving in the of there are going to be a lot of things that win especially at the app layer or built on top of L1's if you are so inclined to go off and compete against Salana and Ethereum and Hyperlquid and um you know all the majors um even even the new upstarts like SU and Aptos or

whoever chain I mean if you want to go off and and go compete at the L1 layer good luck but you got to differentiate and you got to get big real fast and and if not then it's just kind of a venture landscape you know, what what is your what's your mousetrap and how is it better? Um, but it all comes down to value. >> It it feels like there's a new category of L1's that that's coming out. It's the purpose-built L1s, the hyperlquids and and the stripes and and the circles and and these are the L1s that have already already have a a substantial business.

They have cash flow and and now they're coming out and they're building their own chain. Do you think these are legitimate L1's? There's a case being made on X that these are going to end up pivoting to L2s is that Ethereum cope like how do you think some of these these newer purpose-built L1s play out? >> Well, everybody is going to have the same playbook which is how do you become and you could say some people would say how do you become the next Bitcoin? Some people would say how do you become the next Ethereum just as the top two assets. Um it's probably some combination of the two which is um Maybe it's Stripe who has for the first time ever in the crypto space the the distribution to be able to get the broad reach to actually build a legit L1. But

but once again an L1 in my in my kind of valuation heruristic means that you've got a platform that makes money. You've got an asset that could be used as a medium of exchange or or a stakeable component. And you've got an asset that people want to use as collateral. And so like all of these things combined to create a successful L1. Stripe may be going off and doing the distribution first methodology. Um you know somebody else like uh I I think um Arc um with uh Circle they may go off and try to build like I don't know if you remember this but like Silvergate Exchange Network like a kind of like an internal like an intranet um for for banks. Um, and that may be their beach head in. Um, but I do

think that if you've got if you're going to go up against Salana or Bear Chain or any of the new ones that have launched recently, like what's your tech differentiation? Um, but ultimately everybody has the same playbook, which is how do you go and become Ethereum? >> Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to bring up something that is is a little bit kind of tangential to the L1 stable coin conversation which is uh as of recently and I see I've seen Vance tweet about uh Plasma and Hyperlid like like no other and we happen to be investors in plasma also very early to hyperl here and so just recently this week Justin Sun decided it was a good time to blow out a bunch of shorts on the XBL premarket on Hyperlid and my question to both of you guys is actually more about the

precedent of rollbacks and of managing user capital than anything with regards to the valuations or anything which is previously Hyperlid had this oracle situation where just this really small token jelly jelly pumped up a ton then they rolled it back basically called it an oracle exploit refunded the HLP vault holders uh so basically like their their their core business the the HLP vault you know didn't have any lack of confidence going forward you know if there's any sort of you know slight erosion of confidence in that vault I think it it really affects a lot of the entire premise of the whole platform this time. Who the people that got blown out were pretty much people trying to hedge their plasma token allocations. In fact, some guy came out publicly and

said like he got blown out for like 2.5 million of pretty famous uh crypto Twitter whale and uh people are actually upset. I saw a big long post from a fund saying that guys like you guys rolled back Jelly Jelly but you didn't roll this back. This is a clear manipulation of a specific problem on Hyperlquid but not on other exchanges. So you know me meaning that this happened on Hyperlid but the other exchanges prices didn't change in in in the same way. Um it's now settled out around like six or seven billion FTV 66 cents.70 cents. So the question to you guys is like should Hyperlid have rolled this back or like how do you as a kind of a permissionless network trying to you know facilitate

value? How do you think about your your users onchain and kind of these types of activity? Is is this something that that should be you know you know spoken against? Is this should it be banned? How do we think about open markets in relationship to keeping your users happy and profitable? Yeah, Michael, you know, please take it. Yeah, >> it it is not um it's not an easy answer. Um and that you you can't do this every single time someone claims foul. Um because then then there's no stop in place. Um and look, the Jelly situation was uh was an oracle manipulation. Um, and I think what is extremely difficult with either low uh volume assets um or

pre-markets um pre-markets in particular or or more so is that there's no reference price. Like there nobody knows what the value of Plaza is. Is it the five cents that you know Founders Fund did in the last round? Well, obviously not. Um there's a there's a market for it now, which is a pre-market, which is not something that is tied to what other exchanges are quoting as their pre-market price. And each exchange is going to have a a separate and and different market for for how this uh asset should be traded because you're not actually trading the tokens themselves. You're trading pre-tokens. And so it's kind of like these aren't this isn't even XPL. Uh this is this is an asset that is specific to Hyperlid or specific to Binance. Um, and the market is the

market and if you're going to try and short it and you're gonna keep those orders in, um, and somebody decides to blow them out, like you have to know what you're getting into. Um, and you know, no crying in the casino. I get, um, I I do think that where there is a difference with Hyperlid, uh, and the role that they played in the jelly situation is that is frankly something that they should have taken down as a market before. Um, it was too illquid. it was, you know, not even close to being one of the top markets. I think it was on like the third page. Um, and so I I think that that's where they kind of admitted fault in some ways and that, hey, we we need to do better about clearing markets that don't have enough volume for for us to maintain this and

subject the HLP to, you know, the the losses uh as they did. So, so that's what they did. And and remember, they they pay back the HLP. They didn't they didn't pay back users that lost money. Um, and so that's also a different situation, which is sort of like it's their users. It's not people who are putting on shorts. Um, and so I I think that right now they're they're kind of handling this stuff really well. Um, people are going to be upset on either side, but if you're going to try and hedge your free airdrop position and you get blown out, I I really don't have any, you know, I don't feel bad.

>> Yeah. I think, you know, they, like you said, they set a precedent and and to me, if you do it once, you kind of got to do it again, unless there's some external forces at play. I'll keep my answer pretty short short here. Like, let the hype stakers vote on it is my perspective. Like, why not? That that's how we determine that Ethereum Classic exists and we should, you know, blackball the the hacker, the Dow, and basically blacklist their tokens. All the Ethereum uh holders were able to vote on it. It's a social construct that that we were all able to come to a social consensus. And I think that is ultimately like that is the consensus here. Maybe it's four validators in Hyperlquid or it's a lot more in Ethereum back when it was even proof of work. But ultimately I think most of

this when it comes to forking and that's kind of what happened. It was almost like a soft fork in Hyperlid's case to to choose to or to not. Um let let the people speak their mind with their with their tokens. Are are there other precedents within Hyperlquid of them using the token to vote on situations that the exchange decided? >> No, that precedent I don't believe so. Um, >> so that's also a dangerous precedent to set. >> That's accepting a governance protocol that they they may or may not want for themselves and and yeah, that is setting an entirely different precedent. Andy, I think you're trying to talk, but you're on mute.

>> Yeah. Yeah. you get into the layer zero wormhole debacle of is Dow governance even really valuable when it's really owned by a couple people right >> so >> well yeah it's just like are we going to decide on everything as a token vote holder >> I mean are you even going to vote right are you really going to pull your ledger out and vote you're probably not >> if it matters to you you might right just to keep it >> um Michael I got a little bit of a different kind of question but it is still in this you know on on a similar note Um, I was reading through Arthur Hayes's uh, essay essentially for valuing some of these things and I'm I'm curious if if the way he describes it would you agree is the right way to think about this. We have based on

Bessant uh, the Treasury Secretary is projecting $3 trillion of stable coins uh, by 2028 uh, end of Trump's term. and Arthur goes through this valuation heristic to to use that same term of okay if we have this much stable coins in circulation we're able to derive this average uh volume based on the amount of stable coins and then from that back into a revenue number and then he used this to extrapolate like a 56x in Athena 126x in Hyperlid like >> the best bag pumper ever this guy >> if you're if you if you believe that the growth of stable coin is going to grow the use of these protocols and therefore grow their revenue and therefore grow

their valuation then the math adds up but when you look at just the face of it 126x multiple sounds ridiculous so where is the where's the broken logic here >> it's like uh I did investment banking for a little bit and in many cases in investment banking you're told what number to find and then you go and back solve for that number um look I I I think it's not it's not exactly that but it is uh let's find the most bullish methodology we can possibly come up with. Um I also think anyone who's doing like a discounted cash flow is on the flip side completely wrong equivalently.

Um because a lot of these things are either priced in the native token which they're earning in and of itself or the native token is automatically buying back being bought back by the cash flows which is not a distribution of cash flows that you should discount to some you know interest rate. So I I I would say there isn't a right answer um unfortunately in that you know it's somewhere in between um it's somewhere in between like uh it should be worth X based off of cash flow Y um and you know I I think if we look at like the price to earnings of the S&P 500 right now is is something like 22. I haven't checked it in the last week but let's say it's 22. And there's some really non-growthy companies and really kind of

uninteresting businesses in that. Um and and so maybe the right price to earnings is something like a 2x because we're growing on average 2x more as an industry uh than the entire S&P 500. Maybe it should be a 3x. And but if we're talking about let's say an annualized rate, let's say hyperlquid for instance, hyperlid is now buying back 99% of the revenue that it generates or it will be soon. um annualized and and sure this is not like perfect annualized because it is increasing over the last few months but they're at let's say conservatively a billion dollars a year um priced at 46 I think 47 billion FTV you know it would I would do I feel comfortable buying that

at a 46x price to earnings um when the S&P is trading at half that yes absolutely especially when their annualized number as of closer peri periods is much higher and you got things like HIPP3 like all of these factors kind of coales into the same thing. Um but the other thing that I that I think is important to note is like this is all over the long run what should be fair market value. Um and and there's like the in the short term it's a it's a voting machine in the long term it's a weighing machine or vice versa.

Um I I think broadly it's all about the flows in the short term. So, where is that new digital asset treasury company going to get announced? And who's going to be buying a billion dollars of a $10 billion asset because of that debt? Like, guess what price? That that's a that's a train going down the tracks that you want to get out of the way of. Um, so I I think short term it's all about the flows. Long term there there is like a valuation methodology that you think about, but at some price to earnings that's much higher than than public comps.

Let's talk about the flows then because um as of today and I appreciate that it's great to hear a uh a uh venture capitalist speaking about venture capital who is excited about hyperlquid. You know these are these these can be rare these days. um truly the the the people's coin. But kind of looking at at at the flows, I think as of today, actually, as per some of the block works research, five of the eight Ethereum DATs are trading at MNAV or below. So, we're already seeing over like, you know, a majority basically having no more ability to issue shares at a higher rate. They're now going to be trading in discounted territory, excuse me,

territory. And it kind of begs the question of like is the majority of this Ethereum run already behind us, right? Or like how much of this DAT bid can be sustained going forward? Um, you know, I'm curious what you guys think. Like I put out a poll, what inning are we in of of the DAT kind of uh mania cycle and I put second, fourth, sixth, eighth. I think it ended up being sixth as the leading projection here. But Michael, when you're looking at the flows, you know, with this stat in mind for Ethereum, you know, how are you thinking about uh the flows in DATs for ETH? Uh also, Micro Strategies MNAV has just been trending down since for about the last year. Is that about 1.9? I think we're closer to 1.6 as of today. Uh how

are you guys thinking about this? >> Yeah, great question. Um so I think let's separate out basically Bitcoin and Ethereum um our strategy and all the Ethereum DATs. Um on the Ethereum front um actually on the Bitcoin front first uh I I think there's been uh well broadly August is like the slowest month in in Wall Street. Um and even more so than December um and you you get most people are drawn. So there there's basically no new issue um issuance there. There's no new uh kind of like productization that you're going to expect to happen. But today's Thursday the 28th and we're coming up on Labor

Day pretty soon and like get ready for September. Um because I I bet that there's going to be a lot new issue um in September. Uh especially as they start to look into some of the preferred options. Um, so he changed uh Sailor changed some of the uh interest rate or or the dividend rate um for for STRC I think earlier today which makes more attractive. I bet he's going to be able to issue a lot more of that. Um I also wouldn't be surprised he also changed the uh ATM capabilities for him to issue new common. Um, and the big thing that I think is people are waiting on, and it's it's really not a question of if, it's more a question of when, uh, strategy gets added to the S&P 500. And there is,

I believe, a date of September 12th, which would be kind of the next potential available option. If not that, I I would look to uh maybe December or January. Um, but expect that this will happen at some point. And at that point, everyone's 401k in the United States has Bitcoin in it. Um, >> that's insane. >> The classic vampire attack >> truly. Um, the other element which I find super interesting is um the Norwegian sovereign uh uh Norwegian um sovereign fund. Um they announced that they had bought a lot of Bitcoin uh I think in Q2. But when the filing came out, it was really interesting because they didn't own any ETF and they didn't

own any Bitcoin itself. They own strategy shares. And so there's a lot of sovereign wealth funds who are looking at strategy as basically a a higher Bitcoin per share uh amount than you'd get in in IBIT. Um and so there there's a there's a real kind of advantage I'd say with that, which is why it still trades at a 1.7 or 1.9 MNAB. And I look, I think the the standard rate for these is going to be somewhere between 1.5 and two. And so if we're in that range, that is awesome.

>> We're cooking. Yeah. >> We're cooking big time >> to the tune of billions or tens of billions of issuance in the in the next 12 months. Um, now when it comes to Ethereum, what happened yesterday with Bit in particular is that it hit the second half of its unlock. So it sold off I think six or seven%. today it's it's down another couple percent aspect kind of holding in there but it's already through its unlock and so Ethereum is now getting to that like maturation or the Ethereum DATs are getting to that maturation point where and in reality there's only two that matter because um what you need to get to is that 10 billion mark so that you can do a billion plus bond issuance or convertible node issuance and that's

ultimately what everybody's playing for I think uh Bitine is something like 1.8 8 million ETH and so you know 4,500 ETH we're getting close to that10 billion mark which as soon as they do that and they issue you know convertible notes they're buying a billion dollars worth of Ethereum and they're not diluting the shares which is huge. So I I would say we're kind of at the like the end of the first selloff of the Ethereum DATs. Keep in mind these things launched were announced and launched in in the last 75 days. So, this is just getting started. And so, >> I I it I I I think there's going to be um tens of billions of purchasing that

happens from the Ethereum DATs by the end of this year. So, just to like say that again, tens of billions over 10, um which at at current prices I think would be like 7 to 8% of all ETH. Um, and and that's going to come from Ezilla. It's going to come from uh >> I can't remember the name of Andrew Keys um that it's going to come from Sharplink. It's going to come from Bitine. And it's going to be a mix of both equity issuance and and debt issuance. Um >> yeah.

>> So, we got we got a long way to go. Um and yeah, if you were to ask me the question of, you know, what inning are we in? I' I' I'd say whatever E, F, whatever is not listed as the first inning. [Laughter] >> Well, get out of the way, baby. ETH BTC to 08 is coming then, huh? My goodness. Um, so just a quick note there that I think is going to be new for our audience and is new for me. Once a treasury company gets over $10 billion of the underlying asset that they're accumulating, they can then basically issue debt against that uh versus having to go and uh kind of do this uh ATM pipe strategy. They can go and basically do

like the sailor strategy uh after they get that $10 billion mark. That's the >> it's not a hard and fast rule, but but what you need is um support from an investment bank and um you you can find smaller boutiquey investment banks who can do hundreds of millions of dollars of debt issuance, but you know the large banks only want to do billions. And if you know you're issuing debt, there's sort of like a debt to asset ratio that you want to maintain. Um rule of thumb would say the first debt issuance is less than 15%. So, so maybe you do a one or $ 1.5 billion debt issuance, but that's only if you have a $10 billion company, >> right?

>> So, it's sort of like, okay, get to that level. Congrats, you're there. Banks are interested. Let's do some debt. >> And one one more mechanism at play here is this unlock that you said sort of led to this this selloff in Bit. Could you explain like what is getting unlocked? What what do they sell for anyone who's unfamiliar? Yeah. So, um the unlock I mean I said unlock it's really a share registration. Um it's where anyone who is a PIPE investor in the original PIPE um there's certain dates after that pipe closes where a certain percentage of your shares are available for registration. Once they're available for registration it's like you get liquid assets and you can sell them. So in

crypto we're used to like okay maybe investors get like a third after 12 months and then it's monthly for the next two years. Imagine you get 50% after 30 days and then 50% after 60 days and that's what just happened. So like the fact that Bit Mine didn't sell off 20% is extremely bullish. >> Also keep in mind uh I think the shares I I I want to say they're at least over 10x uh in terms of because I think it was $4.15 was the original pipe >> and I think they're still trading over 40. Um, so, >> so what you're saying is that these pipe investing schedules are more like KO rounds than traditional VC.

>> I mean, look, an IPO fully unlocked six months after the IPO. So, like, >> I don't know where we came up with vesting over multiple years, but that's not how Trafi does it. >> Yeah. No, I just think that the push back that people are giving now for like the solds is that, you know, investors are putting up lock tokens. That's kind of like where like retail doesn't win. There was a clip going of Jonah from the thousandx pod talking about it. Um, and I think that's where some of the push back is is is coming from, but I don't think that that's just not happening on Ethereum and Bitcoin. Um, they're much more clean >> and there is no locked Bitcoin.

>> Yeah, exactly. Which is great. >> And just to comment on that, I I think um if you are putting in locked assets, um, you are getting a lower dollar value because of that. >> How steep is that discount? Yeah, if you but it's fair market value. So, it gets valued by somebody else. Um, you can't just like count one for one if you don't have access to the asset. >> Yeah. And and when you're speaking to like your LPs or, you know, people in SF, NYC, people that are, you know, of stature, is there is there institutional interest in allocating to just straight up buying Bit Miner as a as like my I want exposure to ETH versus like the whole like invest in a venture fund or

go buy ETH myself? like are you seeing real on the ground interest of like buying hundreds of millions, tens of millions of dollars of these stocks and like actually want to be like I want to hold this for a year or two years or kind of what are you seeing on that front? >> I mean think think of it this way. Um if Bitcoin is the leading kind of playbook for every other crypto asset, strategy is the leading playbook for every other DAT and strategy trades at a 1.7 1.8 MNAV they have run the playbook of equity issuance debt issuance now preferred share issuance I would imagine every other DAT is looking at that and saying okay that's what we're going to do too and and so what would be what

will be amazing for the DAT ecosystem at large is once again one strategy gets added to the S&P 500 and then somebody goes okay well I guess Ethereum's going to be in there too and then someone goes okay well eventually I Salana is going to be in there too and like that that's kind of the playbook. So yeah, there's a ton of interest. >> Yeah. And like >> leverage on your crypto. >> Yeah. And like you said, you know, there's significant demand from sovereign wealth funds, Norway, and you know, that that's the tip of the iceberg. But I I want to clarify something on the S&P front because I I did a little bit of research here and I I'm of the understanding that a company has to be profitable for three quarters in a row and then profitable, I guess, over that a longer period maybe. Is is

strategy currently profitable? Because when I dig into this a little bit, it looked like they weren't. Eventually, I think you're right. I think they will be added to the S&P, but I think you were saying like January, February, December, Q1 of next year is when there's a timetable >> every quarter there's basically a rebalancing of the S&P 500 and and one to three or zero to three um you know additions and deletions. So like it's constantly getting rebalanced. Um, in Q1, I believe there was a a Fazby uh accounting change that um made it so that you can have accounting profit from these businesses um that are holding assets. Um and so they are eligible to

this is the first time that they are eligible to be in um and it's just unclear as to whether or not they're going to make it in in the first instance. Now, it is different in that they are not a traditional operating business. Um, but that's up to the S&P 500's discretion um or the S&P's discretion. Um, so it it's it's likely that they will get added. It's just a question of when, >> right? >> Yeah. Got it. >> Guys, I know we just have a couple minutes. I'm just going to play devil's advocate here. I put out a a a tweet that felt like an unpopular opinion, but I don't think it was based on the response that I got. But now that Michael's presenting such a bullish case, I think it may be unpopular for him, which was I I tweeted that at the

bottom of the next bear is going to be littered by the bodies in the blood of the digital asset treasury companies who are being forced sellers near the next lows. I think it's hard to see that right now. I think I get a lot of push back for putting any bearishness out there and so I've just kind of stopped. um you know I is is this something that you're actively concerned about from the lens of look um something like some of these treasury companies are just buying businesses like whiskey companies furniture companies random things that are just completely not correlated to their um to to what is actually happening in terms of the accumulation strategy Tom Lee is there's rumors of him buying call options with with the

money that he's raised rather than actually going and buying spot not uh you know people lose money, stuff happens, lawsuits happen, etc. You know, I is is this a playbook that's going to happen again with GBTC, DCG type of thing. Uh how you think about the potential negative ramifications of this? And um is that potentially a good signal looking ahead into the bear? You know, if if there's another bear, if not just forever super cycle, um you know, maybe we see a a bottom signal there with some force selling. Look, I I I think um uh the the veracity that this DAT industry has taken off with over truly just like the last 90 days is pretty

impressive. Um but bubbles don't form in 90 days. Uh they take a really long time. Uh and they have to be really really big for them to actually kind of have systemic issue. Um, and we're nowhere close to having this be big enough to where it could be a real systemic issue. This may be a systemic issue for a longtail DAT, which, you know, nobody's ever heard of and doesn't have any liquidity anyways. But if we're talking about the majors, you know, BTC, ETH, and what's rumored to be a bunch of sold DATs, it won't have a big enough effect um to actually have any chance of taking down, you know, the the token itself. Um, and and that's ultimately what matters. Now, if you have a bad

structured note or or senior secured uh assets, you could lose the DAT and that could be something that happens, but it's not going to be something where um you know, and then congratulations, you did a bunch of shareholders who now own a bunch of assets. Um but that's that's ultimately what could happen. And so I I'm I think we're that's what that's why I say we're in the first inning. Like we are so far away from this becoming too big to fail. Um, and if we get there, that's great. But if we get there, like, Bitcoin's at a million. >> Yeah. Wow. That's awesome, comrade Michael. I'm riding this with you all in, brother. Let's go. Uh, thank you. Thank you for your time, man. Look forward to having you on again in a

couple months maybe, and uh, recycling some of this, seeing where we're at. Been a fan of what you guys do at Framework for some time. Also have a lot of mutual port codes and just, I think, similar ideas. So, always around to help out and uh yeah, appreciate your time, man. >> Fun times, guys. Thanks. Thanks. >> Absolute pleasure, man. >> All righty, man. See you soon. >> Rob, first take. What's your thoughts? >> Bullish. >> Bullish. Right. >> I think I think I'm I'm the bear in the room here. >> I think I think you have bears in the room with you.

>> Oh, man. first inning for the Dats is he's before the first inning. >> I think your I think I think your tweet about the bottom of the next bear is correct because if you just look at the bodies from the last bear, it was the most levered >> entities. >> It's just a matter of it being way too soon. It's like, you know, >> things are need are needing to get much more financially complicated before things blow up. I there's just so much liquidity that's out there that has not yet entered. Like we're we're our expectation of of scale is front running the actual liquidity

injection into the into the market, right? Because we we anticipate these things are coming. We hear rumors. We hear announcements, but Trafi tends to move a little bit slow. like it still takes time for them to go and raise and and ultimately fulfill these rumors and announcements and actually put the money into the market and that's what ends up having the impact on the price. Well, I mean, look, I think that he's right in the sense that this is still too small to cause a systemic problem, but you know, any sort of issues here would would like I think I you know, I think he's right like like we're not going to see a sharp drop off as a result of like of DATs stop buying. But, you know, if the if the ETH debts have

their MNAV consistently compressed and that just like there's just going to be less buying. Even the thing that made me more bullish was that this as long as Tom Lee can get this thing over 10 bill, he's going to go full sailor mode and just raise debt. And that's actual leverage, but as long as you can like be the first and be like have a strong like it's crazy how Sailor has just created this like holy structure and like I don't mean to draw a pyramid, but like it's Sailor and if he just keeps doing his thing, everybody else parties. If Sailor doesn't do his thing, oh boy, we are in for it. I think Tom Lee is like >> as much a um a visionary as as Sailor.

Like he just got started later. >> I think Tom Lee is smart, man. I mean, he's been >> Look, I think he's really smart as well on Bitcoin and ETH for a long time. >> Sailor drew the playbook, man. He drew the playbook. >> Certainly did. He was first. He kind of made it like he set the precedent. Um >> so I don't own any strategy. I don't own any Bit Miner. I I I only own Coinbase stock in my stock portfolio. >> Yeah. But to own like there's there's entities that are out there that are forced to forced into um like strategy and Bitmine rather than forced into spot bitcoin or or spot ETH.

>> What do you mean like if they get into the S&P? I mean that like the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund like may not own like they need a custody if they were going to own Bitcoin Bitcoin right on the docy thing they need there's so much infrastructure to hold Bitcoin of that size they can just they already have the infrastructure to hold strategy >> to own US equities yeah well that's the big breakthrough here for the whole space is like you know maybe we we thought that sovereign wealth funds were going to be buying Bitcoin and storing it in their vault in their mountains of their countries But the reality is more like uh well now that there's public equity access it's it's much easier. So >> go ahead.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> Coming up >> marketing at a track record in DeFi. They've just put out a announcement with securityize for a horizon. A is doing a lot of institutional stuff. Obviously, our boy Michael has, you know, just talked about their success and how he's thinking about them from the framework perspective. So, we we'll be a good one. Um, let's get let's get uh Colton up in the back, get him up here as well and uh have some fun talking about what's the latest at a uh everything in between.

So, Colton, welcome to the stream, brother. >> What's going on, guys? It's been a long time since I've been on this show. I was just saying backstage, the last time I was on this was about four years ago. I looked it up before before I hopped on today. You guys were sharing a room and a microphone, leaning in and out together, taking turns asking questions. So, >> wow. >> You've come a long way. Congrats on all the all the success over the years. >> Yeah, it's quite the it's quite the technical setup here now, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's super sophisticated. I feel like I'm on a real show now.

>> There we go, dude. I tweeted DeFi will win once again. I just keep >> your line. Instant 50k banger. >> It's just every time once a month instant 50k banger. >> Yeah. Just take the free engagement. You're welcome. You're welcome. >> Man, man, for for those of you or for those of our community who who weren't on that previous episode back in the DeFi slate days, maybe just a quick run through of your history in the industry, man. you've done so many different roles, had an interesting uh you know dynamics, you know, uh give us a refresher on all the all the cool things that you've helped build and see through and h and uh how you got to a >> Yeah, man. I've been I've been in the space for a long time. Um I joined probably around well I've been

interested in the space for almost a decade now, but I actually started working full-time in the space in around 2019. Uh really I joined the Stellar Development Foundation, which is the kind of the stewards of the the Stellar network. I spent a couple of years there before joining liquidity as as head of growth and that's around the time we all met in the sort of like 2021 cycle. Uh I led liquidity to launch. It was one of the more successful launches that year for a CDP sort of stable coin protocol. Uh after that I kind of spent a little bit of time at 1KX doing some portfolio support with their uh venture portfolio.

Then I spent a couple of years at sort of redacted which then pivoted to to Diero and then after that ended up here at a so it's been it's been a long journey but that's the the TLDDR in a nutshell been focused on marketing in the space for a long time. >> Awesome. Yeah man. Last time uh last time I saw you Colton you were on stage at the A uh DeFi summer event in Can wearing a cowboy hat. >> Cowboy hate balls. >> Legends of Defi man. >> Yeah it was dope. I mean, that event was really cool. I think the venue was sick.

I mean, it's a it's an a event. All a all a events are are as cool as they can they can get. Um, the cowboy hat was actually a new thing for me. It was my my boss Paris who recommended that. I think she was stereotyping me as a Texan a little bit, but I finally got the cowboy hat. I think it's somewhere behind me back there. But yeah, it was it was a fun time. I'm glad glad you guys made it out. >> Yeah, man. >> Absolutely. So, uh, you were able to go zero to one at Liquidy and that's where we met. You know, you had a great experience there. Now, you're taking a one to 100, right? And helping them scale. Um, how is the experience different working at a company that's going zero to one, you're smaller company, you're working on the launch,

you're working very tightly with everyone in the company. Fast forward to a bigger company, so much going on, so much success already, but now taking it to another level. like what what's the difference in experience and the difference in skill set that someone needs in order to apply those skills to to these two different uh parameters. >> Man, coming in hot on the uh on the first question. I would say, you know, I would say whenever you're taking a protocol zero to one like we were doing with liquidity, you're really just fighting for like the next 10 users. You know, you're trying to build like that core user base of whatever 100 to 500 to a,000 people. And if you get that, you feel like you've won. Whereas obviously at a where there's been whatever 2.5 million users have interacted with the

protocol probably more at this point you're really trying to focus on where the next million users and so we spend a lot of our time thinking about like how do we access that those people where do they come from you know a is already the biggest protocol in DeFi it kind of owns like 60s something percent market share in in DeFi lending and so now we're we're really trying to focus on where the next user set is going to come from and so a lot of A lot of that has looked like the thing we launched yesterday, which is the Horizon RWA market. It is specifically targeted towards institutions. Right now, I know you guys track RWAS a little bit and so like institutions are currently moving on chain right now. They don't have a ton they can do in DeFi. Well, now they're able to actually unlock liquidity

against their various RWAs that they that they hold through Horizon on a so. So, we're doing a lot of stuff like that to figure out like how do we get more capital on board? How do we get more users on board? In terms of the skill set, I think like you really have to look at what some of the more successful fintexs are doing. Whenever you're taking a DeFi protocol 0ero to one, you can really just focus on DeFi language. You could focus on going after people like yourselves who are kind of already in the space, already deep in the trenches. But whenever you're at a protocol like a normal people, you have to look to the Robin Hoods, the Revolutes, the banking apps, etc. you have to look at what they're doing to go after users and kind of mimic them in a way. So, it's not

really a change in skill set. It's more of a change in approach. And so, you just kind of have to mirror what some of these more successful successful folks are doing outside of DeFi to kind of go after similar audiences. >> Yeah. I mean, look, OB is getting, you know, I've kept seeing this chart that you guys post with uh the different um banks that you guys are are just scaling on to and it just I think you guys are top 40 now. Yeah, 38. I think I think people actually what's pretty cool is uh Stani put out a bounty the other day and asked somebody to build a website that tracks this in real time because I was just kind of making those graphics on the fly. And so if you go to a rank.com, anybody who's watching this, you can kind of see a a flipping banks in real

time, which is like an insane thing to to say in, you know, 2025. So >> shout out to our guy Hubie from L2B who I think did create that. I saw his quote tweet of it for sale app. Um >> yeah, >> vibe coding man. vibe just vibe code anything matters. So, so um Colin tell us a bit bit more detail about the strategy like a is you know X today we need to get to Y in one year what is why and what is the strategy to kind of actually get there like securitize city bank fidelity stable coins go horizon deployment multi-chain deployment like what is the you know you're in the boardroom you're in the war room Stani Mark you guys are talking like what is the strategy that

that you can share >> yeah so some of the strategy I mean on the L1 L2 side, it's about putting A in front of users. And so I think A has this very like for the most part this very unbiased approach to where it can be deployed. It's a little harder if it's like a non EVM chain like Aptos for example. We spent a long time building that out and so we're starting to scale that market uh slowly. It went live just like last week I believe if I'm remembering my dates correctly. And so we're trying to go where the users are in terms of L1's and L2s. That's pretty straightforward. Every almost every DAP is doing that right now. I think where we're trying to find the edge a little bit is with integrations like the one we just launched with with MetaMask, which

is MetaMask stablecoin earn. So, if you are a MetaMask mobile user, you can literally start earning yield on stable coins in like two seconds. If you're holding stable coins on MetaMask mobile, you just have to click like two buttons and you're deposited into a earning yield. and they com they combine that with their their MetaMask earn card where you can basically earn yield up to the second you spend your A USDC for example. Um so we're trying to do more cool integrations like that. So meeting users where they are. And then another big piece that we're focusing on um is kind of trying to onboard these these fintexs and really embrace this like DeFi mullet idea. We're starting to see the Robin Hoods, the Revolutes, etc.

They're getting into DeFi. We want to go after those players. You know, it doesn't make sense for them to build like onchain lending infrastructure from scratch. Why would you do that? Especially whenever a has super deep liquidity that can accommodate, you know, the average retail user, but also the average whale and then honestly the average institution at this point. You can, you know, borrow tens of millions up to a hundred million or so dollars and not really affect the protocol very much. So, I think that's the that's the summary of the strategy. I mean, obviously there's lots of tidbits here and there where we're focusing on different things that I think you'll you'll see more of over the next year.

Obviously, we're also working on AB4, which will be more composable and more accessible for builders. But that's kind of the the TLDDR I would say. I uh I had a pod with Stani about world liberty and he explained the the concept of friendly forks which I didn't I didn't hear you mention but I have a feeling is sort of the the injection or implementation strategy of a into the Robin Hoods and and some of these more traditional financial institutions like h what is if it's not friendly forks and kind of embedding a into uh a different distribution channel what is the the integration strategy with the Robin Hoods of the world.

>> By the way, guys, real quick, the friendly fork has like a 5x multiple on a FTV. Just a heads up >> and it goes like that. I mean, what do you do? It's a Trump thing, you know, what can you do? Unfair advantage. But yeah, I think like the friendly fork thing is interesting. It's still a framework that that is developing. I think some of a's scaling will look like that ultimately like uh like Inc. is is doing something similar um on their chain. And so any any team I guess that would want to do some very custom functionality on a uh before V4 would really need to do this friendly fork model and that gives them more u more experimentation capability. You can't really experiment as much as you would

want on the current a market because there's a lot to lose there. Um but for some of these other teams who want to be very experimental or have more granular control over the market, a friendly fork is a good option. But I think for some of these Robin Hoods and Revolutes etc if they don't want to fork a then it makes sense for them to just offer very basic functionality on top of a like recently Robin Hood for example did that massive campaign where they were trying to attract crypto deposits and they did that whatever it was 1 to 2% match now they have a ton of people on their app holding you know whatever Bitcoin ETH etc or maybe even staked ETH and so it would be very intuitive for them to use the new like SDK and APIs that we

released in order to just offer Bitcoin backed loans directly in the app. That's like a very seamless experience. And so I think that a lot of that will be the play for some of these fintexs. They can kind of dip their toes in the water without doing some full commitment because doing like a a friendly fork is I mean that's about as in the weeds as you can get. You kind of have to manage the risk parameters. You have to select the assets and all the rest. And these teams have so much stuff going on. it's more straightforward for them to just plug into to what a already has to offer. >> And we've seen the friendly forks across multi-chain deployments and a lot of them have just failed.

>> Yeah, it doesn't always go well. It's not easy to run to run a >> No, no, that's why it's that's why exists, you know. >> I I think maybe the other side of this is that they want to capture a lot of that value and so it it's a it's a way for them to maybe capitalize on it. Obviously, a lot more customization that it it takes, but are you seeing when you're kind of experimenting with these these companies, are they more hands-off? They want to leave it to the trusted guy that's a or are they a little bit more in the weeds and hands-on? >> You know, I saw I think I saw a tweet from maybe it was like Anthony Cissano or something yesterday where he was talking about how like institutions are in a 2013 era when it comes to DeFi. I

don't think I've seen that behind the scenes. I think they're actually moving way faster than like than most people think they are. And so what I'm seeing and what I think a lot of teams are seeing, especially with like all of the the DAT stuff that's been going on with the NASDAQ and all the rest, like these teams are just ready to go. And so whatever kind of compresses that time to market is what they're most interested in because they have to beat out everybody else. like all the fintech apps are still very much in competition with each other and so whoever's first to market on a lot of this might be winners take all or winner take most like we've seen in DeFi and like we've seen in crypto at large. So I think a lot of them are going to want to move

fast. Some of them are going to want that customiz customization and all the rest but I think I'm seeing people move way faster than than most expect. And uh I'm curious more about Go too because the other crypto native protocol that is surpassing banks is Tether. Obviously stable coins are core to their strategy. They've been able to amass a significant amount of of deposits. Um how important is Go to this strategy as you guys are moving up the ranks when it comes to these banks? Like you you're continu continuing to see adoption. What what's your take on Go? Where do you think this goes?

>> Yeah, nice nice fun uh that >> fun fact on on USDT. I think there's like 8 billion dollars of USDT on a too, which is like an insane statistic. It's like it's like three to five% of the total circulating supply, which is ridiculous. >> Yeah. So um on the go front I think what's pretty cool about go um and you know this kind of has to do a little bit with the revenue meta is that a dowo go is like a huge revenue driver for the a dowo because 100% of the interest that's paid on go borrows is paid to the dowo whereas you know with regular supplies or whatever on a there has to be a split between users and the dowo so I think from a a revenue perspective the a

ecosystem is very incentivized to grow go And we've been doing that a lot lately. I don't know if you guys have seen all of the integrations that have happened lately with like the fluids of the world and all the rest. We also we also launched this go savings product where uh surplus revenue from mave da is redirected to um savings go. And so I think like right now it's paying out like 8% or something like that on you know almost $200 million. And so now we have this competitive go savings product. So that's a big part of the strategy. And then from there, I think what's pretty cool about Go is that you can kind of almost like re you can redirect where you kind of want liquidity to go by saying like with Horizon for example, we can allocate a million GO to be borrowed by um Horizon

users. And so in the event that we're not getting maybe a ton of stable coin supply uh in particular markets, Go can be used as a stop gap in the meantime, which is kind of nice. So I think go is like just this very nice feature to have in a it's kind of like one of those duh type wins where >> we own the we own the whole stack uh as a ecosystem. We can we can incentivize growth. We can offer this savings product. We can kind of control the future of go and make it just a nice touch on on the whole a product suite rather than like make it the main focus.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think uh I think there was some struggle there with Go on the initial launch for the first year or so with the PEG and then it seems like that's really been cleaned up uh and is now kind of getting sophisticated in terms of potential usage and and all of that. And you know what's interesting is you know there's a world where a lot of these Ethereum DATs keep growing and a lot of this liquidity comes into a onchain >> like >> yeah we're already starting to see I don't know if you guys are familiar with BTCS but it's a NASDAQ traded >> I don't know if it's a I'm not familiar with all these yeah they bought the Pudgies um but they actually do borrow on AB >> I think like one of the things uh with

some of these these companies that have learned recently is that whenever they pivot to a treasury company from whatever they were doing whatever they were doing before they're actually pretty limited in what they can do uh particularly on chain and so I think whenever you just buy ETH and stack it in the treasury or whatever that's a very simple like economic mechanism they're kind of just allowed to do that I I think it's treated similarly to like cash on the balance sheet but as soon as you start doing other stuff like um borrowing and leveraging and all the rest then it becomes a different game.

And so many of them kind of have to wait from the moment they pivot to a sort of treasury company. I think they have to wait six plus six plus months before they can start doing more exotic stuff and kind of redefine what the company is. And so I think we're probably a few months out from seeing more interesting from these companies. >> Interesting. So buy a now financial advice. >> No, I'm just joking. No financial advice. do your own research, guys. >> Yeah, I was like, you're gonna have to call your lawyer after this, Andy.

>> Um, no, but I think that I didn't realize that that that that was actually uh so so that just means that the downstream effect of some of this capital coming on chain is is a couple months out, which >> yeah, it's going to lag because right now I don't even think many of many of them I think are limited to staking in custodians as well. Like most of them don't even have their their stuff on chain. But the difference is BTCS they've been doing this I think for like a decade or you know whatever they've been doing it for a long time so they have way more flexibility and they're doing all kinds of stuff on chain like um staking with rocketpool leveraging on a buying pudgy penguins etc.

>> Yeah. Uh a a a guy in the comments from precog market says Petra he says we want to enable long-term prediction markets at pre-cog market by providing yield to users by integrating a what do you think Colton >> I I actually asked uh a couple of people internally this the other day I was wondering why poly market doesn't just have all of the USCC's sitting in a like I don't know how much they have just sitting on the platform I don't know if users frequently deposit and withdrawal are kind of what the user flow typically looks like. Um, but yeah, I think it's a great idea. I think it makes sense for cash that's sitting in a protocol if it's not being used. A is kind of that

as close as as close as you can get to a risk-free rate in DeFi. And so I yeah, I think it's a a huge win for the a lot of these protocols that just have idle cash sitting by. Like it's a small benefit that you can give to your users. And I think like, you know, the way inflation's going and if the money printer turns on soon, people are going to want access to to yield as much as they can get it. So, might as well offer it to them. You know, it could all it could always be optin, too. You don't have to like force it on users if they don't want it. >> Well, there you go, Petra. If you're watching this, GM our boy Colton for some BD.

>> Yeah, I would love to chat about it. >> Yeah. >> And uh Eric Trump just went into Poly Market. So now we just run that through the world liberty 5 back channel and it makes its way to uh to Eric and Poly Market and they they deposit all that onto a which I I was thinking about this from a different angle but >> crazy transition coming here. So, let's see where this goes. >> This latest Arthur Hayes article, right, which also describes how the interest rates are going to go lower. Uh, obviously the only really the only place to go and and get some some yield on ETH is to go and stake it onchain. But for all the companies that are looking at sitting on stable coins or even Right. Yeah. stable coins like

poly market I mean they could be going and getting yield on traditional cash markets but if uh if these rates get cut a's yield looks more and more attractive like >> yeah I mean I this is just kind of like emphasizing your point earlier about that lag and and how that there could be a couple of other boosters here uh that emphasize that >> I I agree I think like it I mean especially I I think This is a good example too of like why DeFi is a better place to save your cash on average if if you choose the right protocols because like whatever I I don't know how often the Fed does these meetings but we all like gather around and wait to see if

he's going to cut the rates or not and he may or may not do it and then he'll give a hint that maybe he's going to do it and it's like dude I can see what I'm earning in real time and then get paid out by whatever the block on a like it's just way easier. Um, and I think like you start to see a lot of these savings apps that are being built on on top of uh protocols like A and that you deposit your cash and you literally just watch the number go up in real time because that's how interest is paid out to the users. Whereas in my like high yield savings account that I might have with a bank or Marcus or whoever else, I'm waiting like every month I'm waiting for a payout and then I have no idea if the

Fed's gonna like rug rug my yield and then I you know for some depending on what you're in you might try to do a withdrawal and you might have to wait a month or whatever to get your money out. So >> it kind of sucks using all the Trafy stuff. So it'd be cool to see people pivot to DeFi just for savings in general. It's a lot more it's a more clean experience. Yeah. >> Should we anticipate like a like a mobile friendly consumer banking app where we can just deposit cash? You guys deposit convert into stables in the back end, deposit into a would be cool. We have the family app now, but I think there's going to be a lot of stuff from us over the next over the next whatever year. And so I mentioned that we do want

to go after the next million to 10 million users. I think consumer is going to be a part of that. B4 is going to be a part of that. institutions are going to be a part of that. So nothing is uh nothing is out of the cards. >> Beautiful man, >> I got one last back in four years after Rob's last question. >> Last question for you. We've had plenty of conversations with Stanie, but he's a great guy and you work with him closely. I was curious, is there any wisdom you've had from working with him that you know you've taken to heart, has helped you? >> Second hard question today. Actually, >> I would say I would say I would say one thing that's um caught me off guard about Sunonny um and this was kind of a

bias I had about like going from working with you know zero to one protocols from to like a bigger protocol. I expected it to be like a little slower um for whatever reason. I expected the stakes to be higher and the timelines to be slower. It is not like that at all. The stakes are very high and Stony likes to move extremely fast and I think there's value in that. Like it would be easy for A Labs and the AVI ecosystem at large to like sit on our hands and be like, "Okay, we're we're the biggest DeFi app by a lot. Um, we're the most successful lending app or lending protocol by a lot." We don't really have to do that much. It's kind you've seen some you've seen other protocols do this. I don't want to name names, but like Stani is not like that at all. And it's actually

pretty motivating internally to have somebody that's like constantly looking back and be like, "All right, we have competitors that are 10x smaller than us, but we got to keep keep moving." And so I would say that's the biggest piece of wisdom is like never never rest. It's like winning is not winning is not an end state. Uh with the way you know the current market is and with the way fintech is, the space is constantly evolving and if you just chill, you're going to lose. And we we see it time and time again, cycle after cycle. That's why a a protocol like Hyperlquid, for example, can come in and start just oneshotting centralized exchanges. It's just like that's crazy. And it's because centralized exchanges in many ways have kind of sat on their hands and started

counting their chickens before they hatch. So, I think uh that would be the biggest biggest piece of wisdom I've gotten, I think. >> Yeah. Very cool. Thanks, Colton. No more hard questions. >> Cool. >> I appreciate it, guys. Yeah. Hopefully, we can do it sooner than four years. Yeah, let's do it. >> I think maybe Buenos Cyrus will be the Yeah, maybe then. >> Yeah, you guys will be there. >> We'll see you there. >> See you. See, Vamos, >> let's do it. Awesome. >> We'll chat then. >> All right, dude. Much love. Congrats on the new role again and uh all all the success. It's not that new anymore, but it's new to me.

>> Yeah, likewise, guys. All right, yours, brother. >> All righty, Rob. >> Banger. >> That wraps up our guests of the stream. What a what a great uh great last guest. Good vibes. Um stream today. >> Good times, good vibes. AR's in a great spot. You're the resident bear. You're calling top. I don't believe it. Stop changing the limits. >> Buddy. >> Buddy. Buddy. You don't even know. You don't even know what's going on.

>> Before the first inning, singing the national anthem. >> That's what we're doing. You think we're still singing? Kanye West just launched a memecoin. You think we're singing the national anthem? >> It got dumped. It didn't get bought, which means that Mania and Euphoria is not here. >> You think we're we Trump launched a meme coin seven months? Six months ago. You think we didn't You think we're still singing the national anthem? >> We are six months into his term. Seven months. >> You think we're singing still? I think the fat lady's singing. That's who's singing. I'll see you guys next week. Thanks, guys. Peace out.

All right.