Rollup TV: Superstate, Messari, Stabled Up EP 5, Wyoming Stablecoin Commision, Galaxy and Enso

Transcript

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[Music] Yes sir. >> Bang. >> Welcome back to World TV episode number actually 62. Bang. >> This one's titled the bounce. >> The bounce. What bounce? We're getting nuked on. >> Uh, >> what is Bitcoin at? >> You and I are looking at two different things buddy. >> Are we? Where's BTC? I see ETH above 4K. I see Bitcoin above 110K.

>> That's a bounce. Yesterday, we were freaking out about soul at 206. >> It's almost there. >> Oh, yeah. I mean, look at look at BTC, huh? I mean, those guys I mean, so uh we were just talking about Ben Cohen's latest video. Shout out to Ben for uh showing the boys some love last uh last clip. Basically, Ben still thinks that um Ben still thinks that uh that Bitcoin's going to lead and that Bitcoin dominance needs to keep going up. Bitcoin needs to make a new alltime high and then Ethereum needs to make a new alltime high and then we can really see a big push here. So, that's kind of what I think we're waiting for to be honest with you.

>> Um >> all-time high waiting room. >> Although, I just I guess Bitcoin could make an alltime high before ETH, but I I kind of think ETH's going to go first. But, we'll see. We'll see. We got a banger slate today. We've got uh the Superstake guys up first. Should be really good. Um who else we got? We've got Misari. We've got Wyoming Stable Coin Commission, Galaxy, Enzo Mainet. So >> Enzo mainet. Yeah, >> big slate today. Uh should be good. Man, that last uh segment with Vance and Michael yesterday was just purely just bullarded.

just absolutely bullarded. >> Yeah, it was a lot of fun. A lot of good takes, too. There's um there's a general industry. I I mean, I just think I think this is the divergence. This is the final rotation. This is like >> this is divergence. >> Yeah. The final diver this divergence of like >> left curve, right curve, risk on like we're gonna see people try to make it all back in one trade. We're going to see like massive rallies. I mean, you're going to start to see like these black hole vacuums that suck up liquidity because people are like going to start chasing this big flaming ball of money.

>> Yeah, dude. Like, what happened to humanity over >> H? Dude, what? Humanity went up. Look, privacy AI like >> it's the AI meta, dude. I'm I think AI is going to get >> coin comp. >> Like, humanity surged 175% in sell it, dude. because the majority the market was red. >> Well, like I mean dude, the market cap of humanity is still only like like the fully diluted I think is like 1.5 bill. >> Um >> only 1.5 bill. That's right. And it's only 20% of world coin's market cap >> or 1.6 bill. And then yeah, Worldcoin is like >> it's about 10 bill FTV.

>> Yeah. So >> So it's about 15% to >> WorldCoin was trading at a hundred bill >> FDV. Like it was it was at $10. >> It was at $11. It was at $12. It was at $120 billion FD in March of 2024. >> I mean, you got to think if Open AI is 500 billion, what's the world coin to open AI ratio? >> I don't know. But I don't think it's freaking >> You don't think it's one to five? >> I don't think it's a fifth. No. I mean, so if you think about some like holding company that has uh both Worldscoin and OpenAI in its like portfolio, >> yeah, >> then you would think like, okay, this is

a company that has massive distribution. >> It has one of the one of the primary leading AI uh it has a chokeold on the AM AI market. Chachi BT's actually I'd be curious what the most most uh widely used LLM is. I want to assume that it's Chachi BBT, but we don't have the facts and the data behind that. But I'd assume it's ChachiBT. >> And then you say like I I think really it boils down to the question of how deeply integrated are Worldcoin and ChachiBT.

>> I mean obviously they have Sam Alman as like I mean dude >> time your time horizons are just >> I mean bro worldcoin is not integrated with Sam Alman. Worldcoin is not >> affiliated with Sam Alman. >> No, they're not integrated with anything with OpenAI yet. >> Exactly. But I we gota like patience, brother. >> Yeah. But yeah, I suppose that kind of goes back to what those guys were saying yesterday like if you're going to buy something at two bill versus 200 or 200 versus 20. If you buy the high the more expensive thing, you you know, you're in a better spot theoretically. Um also those guys blew my mind with hyperlquid targets of 500 to a,000. I don't know

what their time frame was, but it's definitely an aggressive an aggressive target. So guys, we got Jim Hilmer, the co-founder Superstate, one of the leading tokenization and RWA firms in the space. He's our first guest today. Um, they've been doing a lot of really, really cool deals, uh, notably with Galaxy recently. So, yeah, guys, we're going to get him up and start our show off after this wild weekend crash. Jim, welcome to the show. What's going on, Andy and Robbie? How you guys doing? >> We're surviving. I mean, the weekend >> putting our necks out there with a little bit of a rumor mill saying some funds got kind of washed out. Hopefully no bad karma comes back our way. But, you know, I feel like some of these

>> some of these projects need to know if uh their market makers are getting washed out. >> Yeah. I mean, it's kind of interesting. I was in Dallas actually for an event last week and was sitting with a with a couple of buddies who at a at a large market maker and the rumor mill was starting about them blowing up and you know they were still very much liquid very much participating in the markets and so um I'm sure that there are some bodies that got carried out um you know when you have a big deleveraging event like that but uh but yeah we'll we'll see what rises to the surface over the next few weeks. >> Well, good thing Super State is not uh doing cross margin 10x longs with illlquid collateral. I'll tell you that.

>> That's right. Yeah. No, we uh we're trying to bring a lot more stability to the onchain markets. Um you know, with some real world assets, but uh you know, DGens are going to den even if you bring uh higher quality collateral, you still can't uh stop 100x per. >> Yeah, you guys are on the other side of the spectrum. Jim, I'd love to just get a bit of a of of of a background like where did you come from? How did you find yourself to uh co-found Superstate with Robert with with some of the other team members? Um and then yeah, you know, we had a bunch of things to go over today.

>> Yeah, I mean uh try to fight Refugee like a lot of us um that came into crypto, you know, investing back uh back in the day with a lot of really smart guys and then realized I needed to do this full-time uh for a career. So >> I joined Compound actually back in 21. So that's how Robert >> Robert and I got uh hooked up together. um you know there was an institutional business that we were running there and so um I came from you know very traify markets and decided uh let's go do the crypto thing full-time and then you know we spun out about the end of uh 22 early 23 to launch Superstate so here we are gez almost you know two and a half three years into it and uh you know things are really firing in all cylinders.

>> Nice. Nice. Yeah. So you guys just recently put out this um you know partnership announcement with Galaxy. Galaxy also just rolled out um Galaxy 1. But I think like the the big concept that you know from the education perspective here is around the types of of like basically tokenization that's happening and you know I think that you guys have a pretty opinionated stance with regards to you know issuer-led tokenization versus synthetic rappers. um you know so in the in the lens of this galaxy uh collaboration you know why is it critical that assets um you know that are going to be tokenized like galaxy and forward um you know they are tokenized by the issuer rather than

mirrored through some sort of wrap products I think our community probably has a pretty good understanding of kind of like wrap bitcoin some of these other kind of like derivative products in defi but I think uh it's a bit of a different story here with regards to issuer-led tokenization versus kind of like these synthetic rappers. >> Yeah, definitely. We we we definitely have a big opinionated stance on um you know, native tokenization and you know, Superstate um works with issuers directly, whether it's our own funds that we bring on chain. So, USB and USCC have got like a billion dollars in assets under management. Those are two funds that we manage in-house. And so, when you hold the tokens, you actually own shares in the fund. Um you can move them around as collateral or or you know, they're backing a lot of stable coins. And like the reserves that are

managed by the stable coin are actually held in a fund that they hold tokens in. On the equity side, you know, very similar stance that we work with issuers. Um, ourselves are not the issuer in the equities world. Galaxy is, right? They're a publicly traded company, 15 billion market cap on the NASDAQ. Um, when you want to buy Galaxy stock, you actually want to know that you have the same rights as if you were holding it on chain versus your Robin Hood or your Schwab or Fidelity account. And so we do that with a partnership between us and Galaxy so that any of the tokens that trade on Salana used as collateral that are swapped on AMMs like those are all actually shares same QIP that exists on the NASDAQ. So you know

maybe someday Galaxy pays a dividend. You want to get that dividend. Um maybe there's a big vote that you are you know wanting to participate in. if you don't hold shares and you're holding, you know, kind of a rapper or a synthetic, you don't get those same benefits or rights as a normal shareholder does. So, um, you know, there's there's a different spectrum for every type of investor on on what they're looking to, um, you know, put their capital towards, but, you know, I think, um, you know, longer term, you're going to see that native tokenization not only gives people like those rights, but it also allows us in the future to work with companies that want to go raise capital or do a stock split or like have other corporate actions on chain that when you actually have that relationship with the

company, then you get to like help them do other things in capital markets. Um, and then the last thing I'd say on that is like, you know, Galaxy doesn't want 17 versions of their shares traded on chain, like a bunch of different >> Yeah. >> You know, liquidity fragmentation and different rights and counterparty risk and whatnot. And so, you want pure, you know, actual CA that Galaxy tweeted out, like go to their Twitter and like you can like see it on Salana and then you actually know that you're an investor in Mike Novagrat's company and not, you know, some other like offshore SPV. >> Yeah, man. I mean, we had um Vance and Michael from Framework on yesterday and they were talking about just generally when you're looking at this in in a more kind of micro DeFi native scale, you know, they're like we've now reached a

point in the market where things like actually doing really quality accounting and reporting of your numbers and your metrics and having that be public, having consistent buyback schedules, having consistent tokconomics, having governance rights. So, they kind of like laid out like there's three forms of these tokens now. on like at at the very top is like you as an owner of the token, you know, let's call it hyperlid in the sense you have governance control and you know that there's like programmatic uh you know let's call buyback set in. Then you've got like a a you know a um one one under that which is like okay there you you don't have the same level of governance control but there is some some sort of like program uh programmable open uh consistent form

of financial you know policy or engineering happening and then there's like one below that where it's just kind of like this governance token you don't really know what you own. there's there's not really any sort of consistent uh schedule to any of the financial reporting or decision- making and it's kind of just all up in the air. A and so you know that with that lens in mind if we apply that to kind of uh where you guys are operating which is like I would assume the majority of the investors are literally only going to be wanting to operate at the top of that kind of totem pole given their you know history and what they're used to dealing with. you know that that makes this kind of concept of issuer-led tokenization so much more important for you know people that are actually going to be using

these products. >> Yeah. And I think like you know it gives either retail or institution to say okay you know it's 9:30 to 4 Monday through Friday I could trade GLXY on the NASDAQ. That's awesome. Like clearly there's a lot of liquidity and you know the market cap is massive for the company. But, you know, I was actually looking on Twitter last night and there's an investor in GLXY that's like really pissed off at the brokerages because he like wanted to move his shares from Schwab to Fidelity because the haircut on Margin was better in, you know, in Fidelity than it was on Schwab. And like you've got all these Trafi middle office people trying to move things around and like you just get ghosted and like you actually can never do this because by the way, nobody wants to let assets leave their ecosystem. But

the beauty of crypto is you take those same shares on chain and guess what? If you want to put them in Camino, you want to put them in drift, you want to like swap them on orca or Jupiter and like you maximize the utility for yourself as an investor. Like that's the beauty of tokenization when you actually own the assets is that the you know use cases of what we love about you know other you know random coins on on on chain is like now being applied to uh you know $60 trillion equity capital market that is going to give people like more reason to go on chain.

>> Yeah. I mean, this whole 247 thing is it it feels like we were trying to be more like Tradfi for the last couple years in terms of like the blockchain industry and now it feels like the tides have shifted where it's like they're just Trady is becoming more like how crypto has been uh you know with with 247 instant settlement with stable coins etc etc. Rob did you have some >> Yeah. Yeah. J had some tech hiccups when all sorted out now. I I I wanted to think about what what this looks like at scale when we have multiple companies doing this. It it it feels like we have these untapped uh pools of liquidity. If you start onchain, you have something untapped offchain and vice versa. It is this do you think going to become common? And what does it look like as it

becomes more matured and and it reaches scale? Is it one unified pool of liquidity that we're always tapping into? Is it like a toggle feature that brokerages implement to sort of switch back and forth between onchain and off-chain iterations? Ultimately these become one and the same but how how do we get there? Yeah, it's it's a great question. I mean, I think the progression is, you know, start with origination or like creating the assets, right? Like do it in a way that allows the pure native

to be recorded directly on a blockchain. and held by anybody in a wallet that's at their MetaMask Phantom Anchorage Bitcoin it doesn't matter like that infrastructure is now you know is a is alive today the like second phase of this is the utility side and like in the next couple weeks like you know stay tuned all of the shares that we're bringing on to stuff to come ask can do cool things um I think that's like you know two very separate parallel worlds that exist for a very temporary period of time until the worlds converge and the interoperability becomes, you know, abstracted away. And so, you know,

whether it's like you open up a Robin Hood account and you're like, I want to go sell this stock. It's 9:30 to 4, so like Robin Hood's going to route that order to the NASDAQ. And then it's like, you know, 5:01 p.m. or it's a Saturday afternoon and like Trump is tweeting crazy stuff like I want to sell my stock. like that's going to go on chain to a liquidity market. And you know, a couple weeks ago, like the NASDAQ did a proposal to say the same order book, if the if the shares have the same rights and benefits in a tokenized form as they do in a non-tokenized form, like the order book should be able to aggregate non-tokenized shares and tokenized shares. And so I think you're going to see a lot of the like legacy institutional um businesses really allowing these shares to work inside of the existing

system. It's just going to take time for those two worlds to like reconvert. So there's a little bit of an unbundling and a parallel universe until you know you can bring them all together. And I think the key part of that is like regulation and compliance which like you know is a necessary part of capital markets. It's why everybody loves the US. you know, we have an SEC registered transfer agent and so, you know, we make sure that all of the ownership and any the integrations, you know, because we came from compound. So, like when you integrate securities into a you know, their horizon market like our funds are in today. Like there's a lot of work we did with A to make that possible. We're doing the same thing with AMMs and PERS and you name it to make sure that like they're compatible with DeFi to give

them or sorry to compatible with securities to allow DeFi to scale. That that essentially was my was my followup was is this an engineering problem or is this a regulatory problem? It sounds like it's a bit of both. Are are we there yet where we have >> the regulatory clearance to say because we're getting there with stable coins, right? Genius Act is essentially fungeable with real dollars and bank accounts. Are we there yet with securities to say a tokenized form of an equity is fungeable with uh a registered brokerage security? Yeah, I mean, pull up GLXY on Jupiter or on Soulscan and that's the same shares. I mean, like, you know, maybe doxing myself a little bit here, but like I moved my shares away from Fidelity that I owned in GLXY and moved it on chain and like I'll

never go back again probably. But like, >> you know, it's the same shares that I've owned, you know, for a number of years in the company. And so that's that's that's happening today. >> But Jim, let me ask you, like I get a little bit paranoid about uh custody risk. How do you think investors will kind of like navigate that conversation? Because like when it's when it's Galaxy in my Schwab account, it's like I mean they can't put a gun to my head and take my shares. You know what I mean? >> Yeah. No, I mean so it's a really good question and you know the the pros and cons to a white list of addresses is exactly that. So like the shares of GLXY can only go to protocols that we support. So like we've done the integration that that Robbie was asking about, but also to like other investors

that we know who they are. And so if somebody puts a gun to your head and says, "Send me your GLXY tokens." If it's Robbie and I know who Robbie is, then like I'm going to be able to help you get your shares back from Robbie because like the transaction goes from Andy's wallet to Robbiey's wallet and it's very clear who's, you know, the one that uh that robbed you. But if they try to send it to a wallet that I don't know who they are, I prevent that transaction from happening. And so there's a compliance perimeter that you know makes this like a fidelity type experience but just gives you the integration to DeFi to let you do cooler things with it. But you know it is it is uh protected in that sense.

>> So is that concept part of this opening bell uh platform >> essentially that's like one part of it. >> Yeah one part of it is like working with issuers um to be able to bring canonical native issuance on chain. um you know we we work with them as like as as a partner >> and then it's the distribution side which is you know partly DeFi but also part uh compliance as well. M and so when you're recording this like legal equity ownership on chain, are you using like signaturebased uh like programs or like how are you going to how am I with an undoceded you know nonkyc onchain wallet if that's the case? How how are we going to like what is the mechanics

look like to actually make that happen? >> Yeah, good question. So like literally go to superstate.comregister. Andy can fill his application out in five minutes and then be on the white list. And so now you go off into DeFi and trade everything that we, you know, that we administer. Um uh we also in the next couple of months um you know are going to be announcing some big uh wallet partnerships. So like within like your favorite wallet they're going to say do you want a KYC to trade stocks? You say yes and then you could literally do it because I think what's happening is like going back to what Robbie said like you know wallets are becoming the neo banks of the future. And so, you know, you don't have to log into your favorite fintech to get stocks and then your like, you know, other bank account

to see your like, you know, your your checking account and then your crypto wallet to see your, you know, meme coins and and stable coins. Like these are all going to be housed under one roof. And so, um, yeah, I mean, you know, you either onboard a Superstate directly or or through these like channel partnerships, you're going to be able to just like trade them through like wherever you're trading right now. >> Yeah. a as that traditional world that has already kind of got the relationship with the end consumer. Those end consumers, they don't want to change their behavior. They're just going to kind of go again to the brands that they continue to trust. But those those companies will have this infrastructure integrated. From what from the conversations you're having with some of these institutions, are they looking to build out these things themselves or are

they going into the crypto world and they're kind of picking and choosing the best in each of these categories and and either acquiring them or partnering with them to bring the infrastructure inhouse? >> A little bit of both. Um, you know, it kind of depends on the DNA of one of the institutions, you know. So, as you know, some banks uh feel like they can build everything themselves in house and like they might get that done in, you know, 5 10 years. Um, and we're going to be all way ahead of them by the time they get there. Um I think there's more savvy uh you know firms that whether they're brokerages like I mean obviously just look at Robin Hood like that is the epitome of a you know high fast-paced you know very innovative organization that built a lot of cool stuff

themselves but also partner with the ecosystem like you know they didn't build their own chain from scratch like right they're leaning on arbitrum to be able to do that so um you know I think you're going to see uh the ones that are going to win are going to partner with the innovators that have already built a lot of this infrastructure because you know there's no reason to reinvent the wheel and build your own wallet if you know Phantom or MetaMask already has a massive distribution like plug into those networks you'll be more successful that way is my opinion. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um I've got the Galaxy chart pulled up here and I'm just kind of curious on a whole different kind of train of thought. Is are are people like really bullish on Galaxy right now? Like is this like the stock because it was like

Coinbase stock last cycle. You know what I mean? that was the thing the IPO marked the top and it was like it feels like Galaxy's kind of getting that treatment. >> They are. I mean, you know, they uh spent a lot of time building an amazing franchise. Um and they've been rewarded for that across not just crypto but but also AI. I mean, like, you know, funny anecdote. I was talking to Jeffre a couple weeks ago, which is one of the largest sellside banks. And I was talking to their head of digital asset research and I was like, you know, hey, we've got, you know, this partnership with Galaxy to tokenize. Like you should write about it. Let all your Trady buddies know like how cool this is. And he's like, I don't cover Galaxy. Our data center analyst does. So like they actually have a big AI data center

business, which given the infrastructure buildout has clearly been a tailwind for them and they've done really well um with that narrative. So, I think there's a convergence between like crypto retail understanding what's going on at Galaxy, the institutional business is on fire and their AI infrastructure continues to grow. And as of last Friday, it's it's undisclosed and maybe in their earnings call they will disclose it. But I mean, I'm curious to know who the large asset manager that took a $450 million stake in Galaxy is because um that was their IR team put that out on Friday, which I think has gotten a lot of people understanding like the real institutional franchise that Galaxy's built.

>> Yeah. So the bull thesis is it's it's got a kind of like AI oriented data center uh appeal to those types of investors as well as just a a business there. I mean the cost of of compute is just skyrocketing. And then they've also got this new this new neo bank thing that they're launching which honestly should crush. And then just the other kind of general crypto uh I think I mean they own a bunch of crypto obviously they trade you know all that all that type of stuff. when you were kind of trying to make this deal happen, was it like from your entrepreneur perspective, from the founder perspective, was it like we want to bet on Galaxy in this way, so like we're going to prioritize them in our queue or like how do you think about the partnerships that you're

trying to make? Because I I ought to think that the success of Galaxy also has a lot of impact on the success of your tokenized kind of uh situation here. >> Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I think um we've been very strategic and selective on who we partner with um when we roll new products out to market. Um the DNA and ethos of Galaxy and Mike Novagrats is very similar to Robert Lesner and myself and the founding team and all the you know employees at Superstay which is you know do all the right things um build an institutional business but also like challenge the status quo. So um you know I think we aligned a lot on that and they were actually looking for an opportunity like this in the market and you know looked at the whole landscape of all the different tokenization providers and um

you know landed with superstate um and I think you know given their um institutional relationships you know the uh the size of the business it made a lot of sense um you know we look at you know forward like Kyle Samani and the and the DAT that um both Galaxyer and um or Sorry. Galaxy Jump and uh and the multicoin guys put together as like a great partner to help build new cool stuff on DeFi in Salana and then also the same thing on the Sharplink side uh for Ethereum. You know, ESB is an amazing partner there with, you know, obviously a very storied history of of the the founding team. Um but, you know, it's it's uh it's kind of tough from my

standpoint. you know, I'm head of business development, so I want to get deals done and do a lot of really cool stuff, but you know, we're also very um you know, selective and you know, we're happy to be patient to like build the groundwork and make sure that like all the pipes are laid so that then when you turn the water on that like everything flows nicely and so you'll see us, you know, with these marquee relationships to get started and then, you know, really expand and open up the spigots from there. >> Yeah, man. I yeah I I I just keep coming back to this idea that we have now these conver the convergence between these two worlds and you guys have gone and and you know tokenized uh some publicly issued stocks now they exist on blockchains both Ethereum and Salana. I'm just curious

what this looks like if you do it from the jump. If you do it from origin is it it's like a I imagine it's like a combo IPO ICO that maybe occurs at the same time. Have you thought about this idea? What what do you think is kind of the realm of capital formation as these two worlds converge? >> Yeah, like Only Fans should definitely do both an IPO and an ICO. That would that would slap. >> Insane example. You can tell where Anky's head is at, but in general, yeah, how do you see this playing out? >> Yeah, I mean, you know, look at Poly Market partnering with the NYC, right? Um there are and like I mentioned earlier, NASDAQ is is talking about tokenized stocks going into the exchange. like the opportunity for secondary trading is is very real and

it's you know very exciting because of all the you know stuff you can do with assets on chain that you can't do in Tradfi. Um, capital formation, I think, is the next frontier for all of this because there are very ex, you know, great examples of venture-like returns in crypto for assets that have a lot of attention but might not have fundamental value or, you know, public disclosures about how they operate. And so um I think the convergence of you know a lot of wallets and activity and stable coin growth I mean like $16 billion of stable coins on Salana and there's like almost 200 billion on uh in Ethereum like that capital needs to go somewhere and you

know the democratization of access that you can have with an internet connection in a wallet is dramatically different than an IPO on Wall Street today which is very much kept in the hands of you know a few people and you know Robin Hood tries their best to give you an allocation but like they're not was successful in doing that in like Circle IPO. My friend lost a bunch of money because he didn't get the full the full fill. So, I do think yes, Robbie, like you know, we have designs with partners that are either doing a kind of dual issuance. Um, you know, hey, let's go public on the NASDAQ and onchain at the same time. Um, but then also there's a lot of companies that are like, we're not going to launch a governance token.

we've got an amazing business and we're going to go IPO through Salana or through Ethereum directly to investors that are on chain that like our business that we should reward them because they've been users of our product for 10 years and you know if I go through Goldman and New York Stock Exchange I might not give them access like I could if I do it >> through a front end on the web on on Salana >> like Fireblocks uh Bit Go all of these types there should you know I again it's going to be a process because this Totally new, Jim. But, you know, those are the companies that, you know, if we get that kind of ICO, IPO combination, I think the cryptonative people could like I think we have enough strength at least

in like the whales and the people in the community now to like actually impact uh what that stock would actually trade at on the market if if there was a a wellreceived, for lack of a better term, like you know, fair launch or like equal opportunity within the onchain landscape. >> Totally. And like you know another really cool thing is you know when companies go public part of the reason why they go through banks and underwriters is because they get them in front of like Fidelity and Troll Price and like big institutions which by the way are on chain number one. And number two like they do it because those guys are long-term holders of the stock. Like there's a lot of loyal investors in crypto that would be long-term holders of the stock. And the beauty of a tokenized asset is guess what? You could

also program programmably verify or enforce you know a holding period on your stock uh if you wanted to set that mechanism up like as long as all this is disclosed and done the right way. Um you know that's our view is that like capital markets from a capital formation standpoint Robbie I'm glad you brought it up is definitely the next frontier to really build out internet capital markets. >> Uh Jim last thing I got for you. What was the rumblings last like three four days? you know what came to your desk from the like the big guys. You know, we had Vance and Michael on yesterday as I was saying and I was asking them like is there a you know a a new found lack of confidence in the you know top crypto assets? I mean when you see the top 100

tokens literally go down 80% in a in a matter of an hour. Um you know that that is something that if you're looking on from the outside and looking to figure out how to get into this market might kind of shake your boots a bit. Um what what are you hearing? Well, so what I'm seeing is is two things. Like one is um that DeFi continues to just prove how amazing it is, right? Like you know, Salana transaction throughput was amazing. DeFi across all the different you know whether it's hyperlquid or drift or a like you have all these amazing use cases where you just continue to demonstrate that like centralized uh risk management is tough and decentralized risk management works at scale despite massive longtail risk. I

mean that's why like we launched Superstake because we were at Compound watching everything implode in 21 being like why isn't Wall Street using Compound? Like it just makes no sense. Um, so I think that's one thing is like it just continues to like show that DeFi is legit. Um, I think the second thing is um, you know, you always want to know where the bodies are buried from a leverage perspective in order for a healthy capital market. And so given the the, you know, deleveraging and OI that's happened over the last like 24 hours and yet we're still like what I mean I'm not checking the tickers right now, but like you know Soul is back over 200. Bitcoin's back, you know, still above, you know, 110, 115. Um, that instills confidence. I think the the other thing, too, is like watching

Athena um manage risk the way it did. Um, we run a basis fund ourselves, too. Uh, we're very fortunate in the sense that, um, we do CME futures in our basis fund. We don't trade per uh on chain. So, like over the weekend, we had a lot of clients reaching out being like, "You guys okay? What's going on?" And like, you know, CME was closed and we're we're fine. But watching Athena handle the way they did, like mad respect to Guy and the entire team over there and how they've built the protocol and continue to sustain um you know all these all these left tail events and you know doing it all the right way and working with all the uh different counterparties that they have. I think that was like that's always like the scariest thing is

like when you have a $15 billion asset that has a weekend massive deleveraging like what the heck is going to be the domino effects and you know here we are back at you know similar highs that we've been at since you know Thursday. >> It's kind of like the alltime highs Jim >> Andy said we'll see you at alltime highs. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, Superstate hosts an event every year, and last year, uh, we hit 100K when we did the event, and our new next event is in two weeks. So, you know, let's let's see what happens, uh, November November 6, I think it is. So, >> where's the event?

>> We're going to be doing it uh, in New York. So, send you guys an invite. >> Oh, we'll see you there, buddy. We'll be there for SmartCon doing live streams and stuff and podcasts and such. So, we'll we'll we'll we'll come through and uh, celebrate the oracle of our industry at all time highs. We can run it back. >> All right, Jim. Thanks for your time, man. Great work. >> See you next time. >> All right, dude. >> Thanks, guys. >> Peace out. >> Yeah, man. I mean, Galaxy is going to certainly uh have a run. I mean, it's at $40 right now. Uh I was looking at the chart and well, yeah, it's at 39 or Yeah, $40. It's broken out from its last highs. So, um, yeah, I mean, that is going to be that is going to be I think I'm tempted to rotate some of my coin

into Galaxy. Uh, I've been a long time. >> Galaxy stock. >> I've been a longtime Coinbase holder. It looks great still here. I mean, it's at 348. I'm up like 6x on it in like two and a half years, but man, Galaxy just looks ready to go. All right, guys. We got two of King ready to come on. Um, there we go. We're going to get him up and uh get firing. Um yeah, we got to figure out what the hell he thinks about what's going on. Actually, I'm going to ask him about what he thinks about that rotation. I think he's been bull posting Galaxy as well. >> The Coinbase to Galaxy rotation is I haven't made a I haven't made a single stock portfolio move in like a year and a half.

>> Um and it's been working, but and I think it'll still work, but it's a question of like which is going to go higher. So, yeah, let's get them up. Um two of King, what's going on, man? >> Hello. How you boys doing? >> Good, man. Welcome to the show. >> We are assessing whether or not I should rotate some of my Coinbase stock into Galaxy stock. >> Dude, my my honest answer would be why are you holding stocks? That's kind of my that's my highle takeaway there. But >> all in. >> Yeah. Yeah, you have to be like I'm I uh I don't think there's anything wrong with with stocks, but not not for me.

Okay, >> Tulip, could I mean please just explain what is happening on the whiteboard behind you? The world wants to know. >> This is uh this is this is an older whiteboard. This is when we were chatting about like deaf AI and all the agents and everything and I think I was I at some point I was trying to explain some architecture decisions to to the analysts. So it's old alpha. There's nothing nobody should trade any coins or anything they see on this. >> Okay. No tickers on the whiteboard, >> man. Did you survive the the weekend wash out?

>> Yeah. Yeah, thank God. So, I had the uh I kind of I think during China season I I I I was lucky that I got hot a little early. So, I was I was I was trading hot through Aster, XPL, all that stuff. Then you inevitably have the moment where you're like, "Dude, I'm pers God." So, all of a sudden, I start taking Pers trades I shouldn't. I'm just chopping myself up a little bit. And then I had the good sense of, oh, I'm not Perks God, so let me take off the leverage, phone home a little bit. So, not not out of necessarily like the strongest intuition, but just out of like a I'm getting chopped over here. I uh I stepped off all the leverage. I I was holding the two best assets you can, Bitcoin and Ze. So, yeah, I I kind of

survived the liquidation, was just chilling. Zcash is just Mert has gone from like Salana, the face of Salana to like the biggest Zcash cheerleader in the world in like a span of two weeks and that thing has gone 10x. When did you enter? >> Uh I bought around like the 230s level kind of kind of somewhere around then. So I'm not even sure if I'm >> probably around like Are we at like 300? >> Oh, are we? I think we're >> I I think like >> you guys I think it might be the next Bitcoin.

>> I mean that chart is insane, dude. >> It's ridiculous. Yeah. >> So I I I think I saw Mer or somebody saying that like he feels well I think well Anom was all over it too saying that like it's it's probabilistic that like some OG ETH and Bitcoin whales will move some of their capital to Zcash. And like we don't need to get into like all the depths of why cuz like it gets really libertarian really quick. And I like I I get it and like I like I feel compelled to do it. Uh and to shield my you know Zcash and like kind of like play that whole game and and I don't it's just a compelling freaking thing right now. And it's also just like not it's kind of scary in the sense of like where we are in the world's progression

that like I don't know that that like Zcash is like a sign of the endgame type of vibe. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's that's actually why it's moving, right? Like if you play out the endgame thesis like for Bitcoin, for fiat, right? Like we all kind of know where it goes, right? And like Bitcoin at 10K is not like an indicator that we're in like the endgame thesis, right? Bitcoin being one of the 10 largest assets on the planet, crossing 100K, doesn't look like they're going to stop printing money anytime soon. like all of the sudden the endgame thesis like warrants an allocation, right? So, I think what you're seeing

with Zcash is essentially um Bitcoin it's easy like I'm 100% confident we're winning, right? Like Zcash, I'm 10% confident we're winning and I and I think you're just starting to see like some intelligent people kind of frontr run that allocation there. Um, I think that makes it really hard to trade and much easier to just hold, but I think I I I think we're closer to the endgame than we are to the start of the game. >> Yeah. Interesting. No, I mean, I I feel you though because it's like it I mean, why do you want to own Zcash? You want to uh get have privacy over your money.

You want to be able to bring that money wherever. You don't want the government to be able to seize it. You don't want you could you know, you like to do creative accounting when it comes to like taxes, all that kind of stuff. Where do you think this thing goes by the end of the year? Like what is your what is your Zcash end of the year take? What is your Zcash 2026 take? Like obviously it's not going to be resistant to a a broader bare market if we do get anything like that, but you know it does feel like the community wants to own this thing longer term. >> Yeah, it I I think like I've been studying a lot of like the Bitcoin fractals. Like it's kind of funny when you're talking about a coin to tell people, oh, go look at Bitcoin's 2014

chart, right? That's definitely a little bit of a laugh, but like yeah, my price target is basically anywhere from $30 to $3,000. And like that's that's the ridiculousness of the outcome though, right? Like I I think if you are thinking this could be the silver to Bitcoin's gold, it's like a money trade, which is obviously like money is the highest product market fit in crypto and like money is the most valuable asset, right? It is it is like the the providence. So, I I I do think like you have to expect like just a ridiculous amount of volatility. And when I say like, oh, study the 2014 charts, I also mean like study the trading pattern that

worked, right? Like the best traders in all of crypto are literally just whoever started DCAing Bitcoin first, right? Like end of the day, like Sani's made a hell of a trade, somebody's made a hell of a trade. Anom's one of the greats, right? But like they all got beat by that guy who just bought Bitcoin and lost it under his couch. So like that's kind of my Zcash strategy is to just buy it and like I I've been debating like muting the word Zcash on Twitter and muting Ze and be like I don't even want to see any new thesis, any new ideas. I've packed my moon bag and I'm just going to walk the away from this thing. So like, you know, it's it's tough. When Zcash first launched on P Paloni X back in 2015,

it had a it was more valuable than Bitcoin. People were pricing it at like 3 to seven Bitcoin in some of those early trades. >> Yeah. Like if you look at the wick on the old charts >> when it first launched, it had such a such a hyped launch because of some of the thesis that you're describing is that it's basically got all the same principles that make Bitcoin great. doesn't have the immaculate conception of Satoshi Nakamoto and whatnot, but it has that plus these privacy features. I think, you know, one interesting development as of late is >> you've got this destruction of Monero, which was always kind of the other one, the other privacy coin was Monero, >> but they've they've gone and just they've essentially ended the project.

There's been backends and back doors and things and so >> it's over. They've completely ended it. >> Fluffy Pony has moved on to a new project. He's the Ricardo Spagni guy that was leading it for a long time. There there was debate about and controversy whether the IRS had a back door to try to catch some of the criminal behavior that was going on. The tech kind of fell through. They did some ambitious ring CT signatures. Does doesn't matter. The point is that that Monero is really falling flat and I would anticipate that a lot of people that had a lot of the the privacy um you know attraction to to Monero that market cap is going to start to transition over to Zcash as people realize that Zcash is is the one that's going to continue.

>> And the other thing is that this near intense thing is like actually allowing Zcash to now be inter like interoperable with the rest of the space. I mean, two of I'm sure you've seen this. There's they're basically living on an island for the last seven years and then now it's like they just got like their first highway. So, it's a whole another uh open door, right? >> Well, that's that's the beauty of of of the trade and and and something I had kind of tweeted out when I originally started like scaling into it was I think at first it was easy to look at the spike and like scoff and be like, "Okay, another Zcash spike, China season. We're at the end of the cycle here." Um, but you know, access matters, right? So like when it's just easier to hold this stuff than it has been historically like

hyperlquid now exists and can list it more quickly right near intense like I how many people had heard of that before this but like it's now now the asset is like structurally easier to hold so you know the best version of this trade is essentially like kind of a recycling of a lot of old holders into new holders like at this cost basis obviously there will be some volatility like It could just go crazy low and bounce straight back up. Who who really knows? But like if you can recycle some of the holder base here, like get some of those whales out of out of those positions. But like yeah, I just hold it now like on my phone. And so let's rip this thing, you know? It's it's it's accessible for for

the first time ever. I think that that kind of makes all the old charts like not matter anymore because it was just it was just a different paradigm. >> And and what's the world that you come from? And I know Andy, there's a lot more thesis and and other question there, but I'm just curious to get a little bit more on your background because it's your first time on the show. Like what was your first entrance into this world? Kind of where did you get your feet wet and kind of like, you know, cut your teeth and and ultimately, you know, where did that that led you to where you are today? Could you just give us a little bit more about, you know, the the Tulip King lore? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I was um I was in college like Wall Street Bets, like

Stock Bro essentially. Um, COVID hit, had too much time on the internet, like you know, you watch enough financial content in COVID time, you get told, oh, they're printing all this money, inflation commodities, eventually you end up at Bitcoin, right? And then I watched the Andreas Antonopoulos like one of his OG whiteboard like Bitcoin videos and I was like, "Oh, well, this is just obviously the greatest thing I've seen in my life." So, I just full ported um which I I was working at like a flower shop at the time, so the full port was small, right? But like I just I just it's part it's part of the lore.

Yeah. So I just fullported Bitcoin like went as deep into crypto DeFi during during DeFi summer like as humanly possible. So I mean everything from like writing scripts to like yield farm positions on Polygon when they were doing liquidity mining and incentive to like doing you know ape swap on Phantom and all of Andre's projects to earn the elm forks. I was just click every single button like you could possibly imagine. Um I joined Misari about four years ago. So pretty much right after right after graduation had a couple jobs and was was doing some fun stuff before that but joined MSARI on our on our data engineering team. So I actually I'm not

like I'm not one of the MSARI analysts or anything like that. I actually like lead our our onchain data team. So when you see charts and metrics like on different reports, you know, we typically play a hand in that. And then I also help with a lot of like our AI and some of like the the data processes that go into our AI products and and pipelines and stuff. But yeah, I just like wake up and think about crypto all the way till the point of going to sleep is is pretty much every single day for the last many years for me. >> Yeah, welcome to the club, man. Glad glad to have you here. Um, you put out a tweet that really grinded my gears as a plasma bull etheri as a plasma uh seed and etherfi seed investor, which is that you think that uh Phantom is going to be

the biggest NEO bank um essentially. And I just want to give you a chance to um explain your thesis before I decimate it. >> Yeah. Well, I think to be honest, I think it's like the most left curve, right curve thing you could say is like just use your wallet, right? Like everybody like describes all of the functions of a neo bank like oh spend. I'm like you mean like just send back and forth or like scan a QR code and they're like oh save. I'm like you mean deposit into what calls it? Right. So like I I think the left curve right curve neo bankank thesis is dude just use your wallet. And then I think like to get a little deeper into that like it it pays so much to be upstream of the users and to be the front end into

crypto. So like Google flights, right? Like how does Google kill Tvago and Hotels.com and all of that stuff? It's easy. They route hundreds of millions of queries to them and they just see like, oh, okay, people like to do this. This is how they search for it. This is what they look for. Now, when you search for the number one product, right? Like I I I kind of think it's that easy for like Phantom or MetaMask or Trust Wallet or whoever to be like, "Hey, we like all these assets are already in our software packages, right? Like I know every search that users are making. I know every transaction that they're signing.

Like I know their preference for um risk. I know their preference for yield. I know the average user is three hops away from another user or two hops away." or we launch a username feature and this percentage of our client base actually engages with it. Like I I think if you have an intelligent team with like that level of just upstream control, it's going to be incredibly hard for like a new protocol or a new chain to say, "Hey, use this other thing with competing products to access our product, please." you know, so I I I think that I I think they're just in such a strong position on the simplest and most like upstream uh perspective.

>> Well, you know, it's funny, right? So when I was speaking with both Mike from Etherfi, the CEO and Paul Plasma, right, Mike has a and Mike and Avichel from Electric Capital have this idea with these neo banks that you know you look at um Cash App and Venmo and Revolutes and they have such a broad scope of customer base like to the extent of like you know hundreds of millions of people from you know anywhere from like you know lower middle class lowass all the way to like the rich right and it it's really like scale, dude. Their thesis is that they don't even need nearly as many uh customers as a traditional NEO bank because the average crypto folk as they scale over the next 5 to 10 years if

Bitcoin, you know, does what we think it's going to do. If crypto does what we think it's going to do that like the skew of billionaires and hundred millionaires in the world is going to be skewed towards crypto and also just like you know decaillionaires and just multi-millionaires, etc. all the way up to like if you just have a couple hundredk and that those people are going to spend so much more on a month or like a annual basis than any just kind of like average folk. And so like for for these for these crypto neo banks, it's actually an interesting proposition where like you know you could have 1/100th of the total customer base but do more volume than any of the actual like of these larger kind of firms. And you know, I'm just curious like do you think that that that there's like a

logical reason in this? Like do you believe that crypto neo banks could be as big as some of these larger kind of traditional ones with a much smaller customer base just because of like the status quo of like the wealth that is in crypto or kind of how do you think about how do you think about like who's going to be using these neo banks if it's not like cuz I mean let's be real people aren't going to use Phantom who have just you know who are used to like Revolute or they're not going to use the EtherFi app. they're not gonna use plasma. Um, talk to us about like how you see the customer acquisition, the customer base kind of concept uh, play into your thesis.

>> Yeah. So, there's a lot of interesting places you can take that. I'm just I'll just throw a lot at the wall and and see what sticks here. I I completely agree with the sentiment that like the crypto user is just zeros more valuable than like the average user, right? because growing wealth effect like the trenches have a habit of taking money from the not so wise and converting it to the pockets of the wise, right? Um and especially like a very high propensity to transact, right? Maybe not your Bitcoin maxis who are just parked and chilling, but like you know I'm flowing money like crazy, right? Like a bank would have an aneurysm looking at my transaction history. So like I I

completely agree like a very small amount of crypto users who enjoy to use your product are worth multiples of like a traditional ramp or a bank user. That that thesis is is in my estimation correct. The question to the point of like an Ether 5 versus a plasma versus a Phantom is like in that stack what are they going to use? my opinion is kind of like okay somebody who's managed to like run up the digits on crypto right is a power user like inherently so right so like is a power user likely to you know use their wallet at full capability or you know move things over to plasma or

etherfy right like the thing about them is they're going to be so flaky right like they know how to move their money they know how to find the best yield right so it's going to be very tricky for like an etherf or a plasma to like lock down that very agentic power user, right? Versus the wallet which doesn't have the concern of locking them down because they're doing everything like through the lens and through the access portal of the wallet. So I I do think as far as like that user is valuable who retains that user my bias is still towards the wallet, right? But then the super interesting question is like okay wait a second what we haven't had like banked individuals to like the tunes of

the millions the tens of millions the hundreds of millions right like if you think of Bill Gates like just making up say he has a hundred billion dollars he can't go spend a hundred billion dollars right like he has to set up some fake foundation to bribe governments to allow him to you know distribute money and they're taxing that all along the way. Anytime he buys a company, there's 17 people who can like say no to that. But all of a sudden, these neo banking services are offering money to somebody who has a billion dollars and can just spend it. Like if they sign it, that billion dollars goes where it wants, right? Versus like the Bill Gates signing a billion dollars. You're not going to get it for half a year. So I I do think the the other interesting

question is like what services do they want, right? Like you've actually never seen somebody who can just spend a billion dollars. But if somebody spend a billion dollars for the first time, what can I sell them for a billion dollars? So I'm also very interested like the neoank side is interesting, but what I find more interesting is what comes after that. What are the things we're going to be selling to these people? Like I I think that will be incredibly interesting as well. >> Seeing this because they're trying to protect us. That's like the regulations and the and the banking laws and why they're trying to slow down the capital velocity that you're describing is that once once you have the freedom of access to all of these assets and these

applications, how are we going to be spinning and spending so that now all of a sudden the velocity of which we're moving the capital is at a much much more increased pace. So I think you're absolutely right. I think we are already starting to see this play out and we're just going to start see this play out at a greater scale and what you're describing is effectively this fat wallet thesis for a long time and I know you've seen this it was fat application thesis and it was fat protocol thesis is this is the value acral flowing up to the applications or is it going to be flowing down to the protocols in terms of gas fees and these sorts of things we've seen blockchains become commoditized gas fees drive to zero protocol fat protocol thesis is cooked

application s are losing everything to me. There's there's infrastructure things that are taking all of this and they're using it for their own value acrruel. And what we're seeing is that the enduser, the relationship that owns the distribution layer is the one that can ultimately have the first intermediate effect of charging fees and then we're going to start to see those fees get driven down and we're going to see the next level. I like to think of this as fat user thesis. >> The user is the one that ends up getting the value acrruel back to their own wallets. They're going to be able to take charge. they're going to be able to control their own portfolios and ultimately democratize access for everyone involved. So, I I I think this is a really optimistic view of the future because ultimately we're going to

have a lot more access and a lot more control over our own finances. This doing, you know, not able to do things because it's, you know, we're being protected by someone else who thinks they have a better understanding of our own self-interest. that. Like, they don't know what we want. They don't know what we're trying to do. And so I I'm really really excited for this uh for this future and the freedom that this enables. Um I I'm so end rant I guess but I I don't know what how how that really comes about it. It's really I mean it's regulatory, it's engineering, it's technical, it's all of these things, but it's al also something that I wanted to ask you about which is this transfer of wealth. I saw a chart the other day and it was like when I learned about about finance and it had uh

color-coded baby boomers who learned about it like once they kind of started working and then you progressively saw people learning about finance earlier and earlier all the way to to Gen Zoomers that learned about it it learned about it in early adolescence when their hormones are firing and they're like literally cra like dopamine and these and and all these hormones are like firing in their brain. That's when they're learning about this like inherent thing that make like these neurons fire in our brain. They're that's when they're learning about finance and they're they're fundamentally ha they're having a different relationship with these numbers on the screen video game era internet capital markets internet money.

How do you think finance evolves? Like how do you think our relationship and understanding of money evolves as we we basically enter the internet era of finance and we have this transfer of wealth where trillions of dollars are changing hands from boomers who >> you know they they we're trying to follow the American dream. They just wanted to buy a house, have a couple kids, right? Work a good job, retire. Now we're transferring into like the social media era finance. like what like how do we how do we make sense of this?

>> That's a loaded question. >> Super loaded question. I'm just kind of just I'm just kind of thinking out loud here, but like the these are some of the things that I think >> if we can get ahead of it, then we can start to build applications and businesses that harness this and make make the most of it. >> Yeah. >> So, what what do you think the end consumers are going to be looking for out of their new this new era of financial apps? Yeah, th this is probably where I enter just political extremism and things get a lot more fun. Um, yeah. So, one, I'm I'm stealing fat user thesis. I I I love that framing. I actually I I have kind of had the long-term perspective that a lot of the crypto primitives just trade at zero, right? Like um unis swap, hyperlquid, a

all of them, right? Like you just I don't see where the long-term moat comes from, right? So I I think like so many projects in crypto probably have to zero and just trade at like what is the bare minimum like these amount of fees pay the LPs to keep liquidity here or they pay the two engineers to manage obvious risk engine right like lights on only type type of operations right so I I think the financial services sector just goes to zero but that opens the gate of like okay now financial services are free that means they're now available to everybody. So everybody has more money in their pocket. Well, what is digital money is Bitcoin and potentially Zcash.

So those, you know, like whatever your price targets are, just raise them. Just, you know, just do yourself a favor. Don't even set price targets for those types of things, right? Which then means like, okay, now we're living in a weird world where services and information services types of businesses don't really have like a moat anymore, right? like uh even a Netflix or like a Twitter like that's going to end up being some democratized social graph right so when all the information services because that's all finance is is you know dollars represent signal in the system a dollar is just information like I did this one thing this guy gave it to me I owe it to him the bank owes it to him the Fed owes it to to the treasury whatever right so

when when all that zeros you just actually have like physical resource left well the other problem is like it's also LZ fair, right? And like we know like in competitive economic landscapes that um winners just win big and win bigly, right? You've already seen the G and all this crypto stuff, right? Like Arthur Hayes is just better at crypto than a ton of people, right? Justin's son, love him or hate him, is damn good at the crypto game, right? He's better than everybody on this call, right? He's a he's a like foreign embassy now or he's his royal highness, right? So like I kind of think at the same time that Bitcoin kind of

disintermediates the function of money from state at the same time as crypto and smart contracts disintermediates moat from all information technologies. I think what you're kind of left with and I have an article on my account somewhere called neofudalism is I think you're actually left with kind of a feudal society where you've restructured the relationship between like people and the state because you've separated the state from money. you've restructured like what has typically been the profitable information businesses like the Google's the Microsofts all that stuff to the point where nobody can compete in that space and it's just about like physical resources so I think you kind of this is like very not like in taste to say but I think you kind of

end up with like a feudal society where like you kind of need some amount of Bitcoin to get into the Citadel maybe it's Ze Right. But all of a sudden you see like um people as nation states, right? Where like like you already see this in like some of the crypto hedge funds where it's just one guy and he hires like an engineer to do like some prop trading from him and he hires a personal research assistant and then he has this legal entity in BVI and he can pay anybody whatever amount he wants all over and he just marshals this small little SWAT team of essentially like internet capital markets operators.

Right. I I think you see these small islands of like SWAT teams and that is a feudal structure, right? Like he has resources. He's now leasing those out to people with relevant skill sets and talents that can grow his resource base. Hopefully, they're involved in the upside there. So, I I I think everything looks very very very very different couple decades from now. populism works the best possible case is you actually do give the means of production back to the people and then they can go and they can lease out land, labor, capital to their own self-interest.

>> Tulip King, the globalists lost and we're entering the global the the hyperlocal era of finance, >> politics, philosophy. >> Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge uh with us. It's been an absolute pleasure and uh yeah, please come back soon because these things things are changing fast. >> Yeah, thank you so much for for having me on. Good luck in the trenches, everybody. >> Yeah, dude. Appreciate it, man. >> See you next time. Thank you, brother. >> All righty, guys. Um, sweet. Well, first first two segments were were pretty fire. Um, both were both were good.

We're gonna have our stabled up show, episode five, come on next. Um, so we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with [Music]

All righty, guys. Welcome to Stabled Up episode number five, powered by our friends at Frack with their upcoming FRANET release. One of the OGs and premier stable coins and stable coin infrastructure players in the space. Today we have Anthony Apollo from the Wyoming Stable Token Commission. Let's get Anthony up. We're going to be talking about Wyoming's new initiative to launch stable coins as well as the latest happenings in the stable coin space. Anthony, welcome to the show. >> Thanks for having me, guys. Appreciate it. >> It's good to see you. >> Absolutely. Thanks for coming on. >> We're glad that you're pushing the agenda forward. Today is a Today's a big day for Stripe. Stripe has just announced stable coin payments for subscriptions. I think this was it. This is a great place to start because stable coins and crypto has been very very

difficult to actually create uh subscriptions with because there's no set there's no like recurring payment flow. It's obviously difficult to do payment reversals. So this is a big moment for I think Stripe because anyone who's ran a business who's tried to set up recurring payment flows with you know blockchain based stable coins, it's very very difficult. Um so Anthony, I know this is like fresh for you. just it just uh hit the newswire five minutes ago, but curious to hear your initial take. >> Yeah, and thank you for bringing that up. I have not seen the newswire yet.

Like you said, we're we're running hot here in all things stable coin. Uh they're all you said it's a big day. They're all big days at this point. Yeah. >> But with Stripe, I'd be interested to see if how that's related to their kind of blockchain endeavors um broadly speaking, but but generally it's a great way to get people to use stable coins more like they use dollars today. And to your point, we'll get I'm sure to my background in a bit, but before I was in this role, I was building out my own blockchainbased platforms and I saw a couple of early attempts at subscription models and it's not easy to do to your point, right? Making sure that there's actually crypto in the wallet to pull and go to wherever it needs to go. But I

think as more and more things move on chain, this is fantastic news. >> Yeah. I mean, today is a big day as well for for for another reason, which is we've we've officially hit $300 billion of outstanding stable coin supply. >> Um, which is massive. The majority of that being Tether on Ethereum, um, also USDC on Ethereum and then Salana and a couple other a couple other platforms, Binance Smart Chain, uh, Plasma even getting up there now. We're well on the road to trillions, guys. I mean, we are we are getting closer than ever. Anthony, what is the what is your perspective on the path from 300 billion to a trillion? What does that look like?

And then we'll get into your background. We'll get into what the work that you guys are doing is. >> Yeah, I think I think we're rapidly accelerating of that 300 billion. I think 45 billion of that was all issued within the last 30 days. Uh and if we look towards the trajectory that you know our Treasury Secretary here in the US Scott Bessant has us on which is $3.7 trillion in stable coins by 2030. I think we're well on our way. We're seeing the acceleration. We're seeing institutional adoption. I think the Genius Act once that's fully promulgated in place by early 2027 that will continue to accelerate things. I think that'll be one of the big boons. uh as well as what we've seen is a lot of interest from non-governmental

organizations or aid distribution using stable coins and those are some pretty big numbers that will come on chain very soon. >> Anthony, before we go deeper, I'm curious about your background because Wyoming is a very innovative state. Uh there's things coming out both with stable coins but also with Bitcoin strategic reserves. there's all sorts of um adoption and innovation that's coming out of the the state of Wyoming and as a public organization you guys have to follow a little bit of a set of different rules sometimes than private organizations. So I'm just curious did you start out as a as a crypto guy? Did you start out as a as a politics guy generally what you know where do you

come from? What what's your story and how did you end up here? >> Well of of all those things I could have been the least was a politics guy. I did not expect to be in government, state government, federal government, policy lobbying. That was not my speed. I actually started my career in traditional finance. Um, predominantly working at some of the big banks in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis and the DoddFrank Act that passed subsequent to that. Uh, helping them get all their books and records in order once there were higher barriers to hit when it came to compliance. So working in the big banks and seeing how the sausage gets made and oftentimes how it doesn't with very antiquated systems uh being in that position and learning about Bitcoin and Ethereum at the same time around the

fall of 2015 was a pretty big juosition right it was kind of a night and day difference and started getting more and more into the crypto space that way uh until about 2017 when I formally joined consensus the Ethereum incubator that I'm sure your audience is familiar with uh to work on a early attempt at token organized intellectual property called Solarius. We worked on a science fiction franchise and then we had all these mechanics we were designing around payments within that platform for paying for the media that you consume. Governance tokens that would indicate which parts of the story became cannon or parts of the formal story and there'd be votes by the community on that. Um many different and of course NFTs were in there to actually represent the content. But there was a lot of moving parts on that. Again, I'll I'll

reiterate this was February of 2018 when we launched that. So at that time, so someone eventually called it terminally early because at that point like all there was was CryptoKitties and that that gked up Ethereum pretty bad at the time until there's a whole community initiative to kind of bring their code base uh make it a little bit more efficient, right? So uh worked on on that uh started the consensus sports vertical within that organization split off in 2018 to work on some of those endeavors myself my own startups uh and brought that forward but but kind of the longer tale for me is just working on creators rights getting people paid for the content they create removing some of those intermediaries who are you know in opposition to that so along the lines I've worked with Spencer Denwy who is a

professional basketball player then on the Brooklyn Nets now on the Charlotte Hornets to do a tokenized debt security, essentially a tokenized bond on Ethereum with stable coin payouts on a monthly basis to the token holders. So that was and that came out right in the midst of the pandemic. That would have been July of 2020. And that didn't get a whole lot of coverage, but that project ran its life cycle as a three-year bond and hit maturity July of 2023 and and did everything it intended to do without fail. So we b built a great program there. And then subsequent to that I was working on a platform called Rensa which was for digital multimedia distribution.

So whether it was a game, comic, movie, song you could bring that onchain. There was tokens behind it to recognize the creator of that piece of intellectual property to create licenses as a separate set of tokens so someone can buy it and then affectuate the payment in real time to any number of creators. So we would just split your attribution up by wallet address. Smart contract would codify that. You'd send payments. So, uh, all of that has been my background much more so than politics. But I will note that work did lead me to Wyoming. Robbie, as you mentioned, Wyoming has been working on the legislative framework around cryptocurrency blockchain digital assets for about a decade now. There's been 80 bills put forward. 50 of them have passed, most of them under our

current governor, Mark Gordon. And seeing all that work is what caused me to leave New York and join the ranks here in Wyoming back in 2021. again just as a builder looking to actually use the fintech sandbox the state had created to play around in for some of these novel programs. But that is what uh brought me here. And then I came a fly on the wall for the meetings of the legislature, the select committee on blockchain, stable token commission before I was hired. And when they needed someone with a odd combination of product development experience, blockchain experience, securities law, banking, lived in Cheyenne to start a program, could start a new role the next day, I was ready and willing.

>> Man, it sounds like Wyoming is the new Delaware. I'll tell you what. Well, Andy, I gotta tell you, uh, if you take a look at it, Wyoming was the first state to have the LLC, and Wyoming ran a better marketing campaign. So, I'm here to make sure that we get the first stable coin out the door and then protect it. >> You mean Delaware ran a better marketing campaign. >> Oh, yeah. That's why they're notorious for it. But, we Wyoming was the first state to have the LLC. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean it feels like it feels like that is like a well it feels like this um kind of you know push towards the adoption around FR&T and just that just general stable coin uh I is is a step in the right direction. I mean if you look across the board a lot

of the trady players are trying to understand how to best use um you know just general DeFi technologies but when it comes from like a state level it's it's quite different. So let's talk about the some of the background here with regards to FR&T. What was your core motivation to launching this stateisssued stablecoin, the first stable token issued by a US state? Um why did you guys decide that this was the right move? I >> think there's there's typically three reasons we point to about why the state got involved with the stable token specifically. And to be clear, some of this predates my work on it, right? The staple token commission existed before I was brought on as the executive director back in 2023. But as I mentioned, the state has a whole framework for digital

assets. And one of the key things a stable token can do is create cohesion between different and potentially disperate initiatives. So for example, you have the ability in the state of Wyoming to pay your taxes with crypto. Now, you may not want to do that with Bitcoin, but certainly makes sense to do with the stable token, especially if that means you get the process done faster or if you're getting a refund, you get a refund faster. Um, that's one. We have the digital asset registry in the Secretary of State's office, so you can prove that you are the owner of something on chain. We have many different uh business entity structures.

The DAO LLC, coming back to the LLC again, right? But we have a DAO LLC statute on the books. We now have as of two years ago the decentralized unincorporated nonprofit association or Duna which is a bit less of a mouthful but that is a model that u unis swap has voted to adopt that syndicate is now involved with. So when you have all these different disparate initiatives you want to move value between them it makes sense to do it in a way that is digitally native and also in a way that is stable and a stable token is a great way to accommodate that. Second one, and this is probably a little bit bigger, is the revenue diversification for the state. So, the state of Wyoming is an oil and gas state. So, we're always looking to figure out new ways to bring

new dollars into the state on because oil and gas is a finite resource. Probably not in my lifetime or my grandchildren's lifetime, but at some point that is a finite resource that will run out. The state will need some way to generate revenues. So, with the Frontier stable token, which again is fiatbacked and fully reserved to be clear, not a CBDC. will look a lot more like USDC or PYUSD. Then when we get the dollars in to purchase those tokens, those dollars get invested into your typically conservative blend of short duration US treasuries and repurchase agreements. So those are interest generated currently around 4%. So when they those dollars come back to the state that is net new revenue for the state and on a quarterly basis those dollars get swept into the

state school foundation fund. So, it's a way to diversify revenue and to pay for schools in the state without having to increase taxpayer burden. And hopefully, if the program gets sizable enough, it could pay for not only the schools, but more than that over time. And the last one that I'll mention is that it's the state's second attempt at a fully reserved financial instrument. So, if you've looked at what Wyoming has done in the past, one of the models we created is the special purpose depository institution or SPDI or Speedy. Uh so if if you're familiar with custodia or Caitlyn Long, she had uh that that institution here, that was something that the state put a lot of time and effort into. There's a 770 page examination manual for the SPDIS. When

those models were brought forward, there was a lot of pressure from the prior administration that kind of kept them down. Caitlyn has a long and storied fight with the Federal Reserve, for example. And I'll not say too much more about that because there's a lot of um back and forth on that in DC. But the goal was to create a financial institution that could custody digital assets provided everything was fully reserved and then a little bit more so over collateralized. Uh and the stable token emerged as a second way to get a model like that out so that the users of it whether it's Wyoming citizens or well beyond know where their dollars are at any given time. This is not a bank where you put the dollars in and 90% of it is lent out. You can be the custodian of your own dollars.

>> Incredible, Anthony. That was that was a great explanation on on quite a few points. So, I I think there's you actually evoked like two or three questions that I have in mind, but we'll we'll go one at a time. Um, first off, you're right, Caitlyn Long, University of Wyoming graduate, um, has been a Bitcoin advocate since 2012. Um, has has really evangelized the industry. I and generally Wyoming has evangelized the industry. I'm curious where you guys are at now coming from some of the things that you know she she embarked on while she was doing some work there. You've now issued this uh these token management rules as part of the FR&T token. This kicks off a 45day notice uh essentially a comment period where

people can come in and they can comment on the design, the structure uh the mechanism of of the FR&T token. Could you describe where FR&T is now in this comment period? What has been the feedback that you guys have gotten? And then after this comment period ends on November 6th, what are the next steps for this stable coin? >> Right. So, a couple things. First, the 10,000 foot level. It's important to note that everything that this commission does is done in public. This is probably a good time to throw out the what I say is my opinion. I do not represent the commission. The commission is there's seven commissioners includes the governor, state auditor, state treasurer and the determinations of the commission are theirs. I am but their

humble emissary as the executive director, right? Um but everything we do is public. The determinations are made in a public forum at public meetings by majority vote. Every one of our meetings has a period for public comment. The rules that we put forth that will govern how the agency operates do have these public comment periods of 45 days to get that public input. Uh right now in regards to the rule making process, we do have our reserves magic rules are live. Those went through back at the end of July and with the token management rules like you said those are up for public comment until November 6. We do have emergency rules in place that will kind of bring us if we need to get out the gate first and have those in place we can rely on those. That's gone through the commission and public forum

to a certain extent and that you can provide public comment on it. But in terms of the broader uh kind of public comment period, the not the public notice and comment period, uh again, we haven't we have a couple of weeks on that. Uh there's no hurdles there and getting us out the door before that gets done because we already have the emergency rules in place. Um but we will always want to hear out what the public has to think about where we are, what we've drafted, how it conforms with industry, how it conforms with other statute in the state. Um, we do present all commentary when that November 6th period hits and and we have that deadline. We will meet in a public forum to discuss it and address it. If we need to make changes,

there's a difference between non-substantive and substantive changes. Non-substantive, you can make a couple edits and bring things forward, which is what we did with the reserves management rules. You know, someone found a typo, right? Could just strike that and go and keep going. if there's substantive feedback, you know, there's always a potential we have to return back to the drawing board, but that just means at the end of the day, we have a stronger deliverable when we get done with the process. Um, in terms of where we are with the token right now, so we did announce the technical launch on August 19th at the Wyoming blockchain symposium, we've launched front across seven different interoperable blockchains through our partnership with both layer zero and Fireblocks. So that is functional, stress tested. Those tokens were put out. All of our

functions were tested on the respective mainetss and then we clawed those tokens back. Uh we since then have now formalized a relationship with custodians to allow us to educate the dollars behind the tokens. That is now functionally live and we are testing that as well to make sure that we have an understanding of the timeline for getting dollars into the account so that we can actually mint the tokens, getting dollars out of the account for redemptions to a user or back to our agency as that recognized revenue. So there's still a little bit more testing going on and then we're also of course wiring up the exchanges and some relationships behind the scenes. These actually be made publicly available. Uh you've likely seen that we've talked about working with Kraken as an exchange

that would have the tokens on Salana. We have the Rain card essentially a smart card that allows you to spend stable tokens anywhere you'd be able to to tap your Visa card provided you're fully loaded. That gets us into 150 million terminals worldwide. That gets us on Apple Pay and Google Pay out the door. So those are all relationships that are again will be live in the very near future. >> Is the idea that Wyoming citizens will be incentivized to use this as a form of payment because this uh reinvests into their schooling and educational systems.

And it it's almost a form of cash back essentially, but it's more directed uh right back to uh something that you know they they're ultimately benefiting from. >> Yeah. So incentives is a good question, right? Because we're a taxpayer funded agency and one of the things that I'll note here is that when dollars start coming back, we actually first owe those dollars back to the state's general fund. So we are at a minimum like a break even net zero agency, right? So that's part of it. But if we were to have incentive models where, you know, we're giving discounts on the token, well, that breaks statute. If we're putting dollars forward to get the token into circulation locally, um there's certain discussion to be had about what

that really represents, which is to say that could be using taxpayer money to go give other people a benefit. So, typically we can't really go down that route. Um the hope on our side is we could work closely with some of the foundations for the respective chains that we're launching on to get these programs off the ground from an incentive perspective. Those would be more at the chain level than the local level. But I do want to be specific. The Wyoming stable token is not limited to the state of Wyoming. It's meant to be domestic. It's meant to be international. It's meant to be used on DeFi. And that's one of the reasons why we did call kind of the first version of a Wyoming stable token the frontier stable token to make sure people understood that it's wherever you're going it's going to be there. Uh the

term Wyoming stable token we still use somewhat interchangeably, but my perspective, again, personal opinion at this point is that the term Wyoming stable token will likely be used to define a different token that we may issue, let's say, on behalf of a different state that uses our statute, our rules, our policies and procedures, our tech stack. You know, we've spent years building all of this. Does it, you know, there's other states that have interest now, other municipalities, other nations. Does it make sense for them to go and spend years and dollars of taxpayer money building it all themselves or to work with us to get it out the door?

>> Yeah. You know, when it comes to the like the core purpose from the stable coin perspective from the federal government, I think we there's a lot of kind of chatter around this being a, you know, a extension of the US dollar's hedgeimonyy, you know, worldwide, right? the ability to get USD into Turkey, Syria, Argentina, uh you know, at large across these different jurisdictions. This provides like a way for us to kind of give people access to a store of value that they wouldn't previously have had um you know, within the US dollar.

when when it comes to like aligning FR&T with like the broader goals of the US government and you know Tether or USDC like how do you see the like the competitive or the collaborative dynamic between the US federal government's objectives and Wyoming's state level objectives when it comes to stable coins? >> Well, I think I think it's much more collaborative than it is competitive. So just to circle off on the circle and tether part first. You know the goal here is now for us to compete with private industry right tether and circle have massive distribution networks massive market effects already as is. Um if they continue to work with private businesses that's great. I'm I'm a user of USDC. So certainly familiar with the

product and it's it's a great product that's been developed. We've gotten a lot of interest more from public sector on our side because we are a public good. Again, we talked about the dollars going back to the state. uh when we talk about that with different organizations, there's a lot more connective tissue between us and other public entities or NOS's that want to do a distribution with a program that is again a public good rather than let's say a tether which you know there's obviously some questions about the audit there and with circle which is now a a public company right they went through the IPO process which means definitionally they're they're ultimately responsible to their shareholders not the end users of the token you know, or others who are kind of in

that mix. So, we've got a very different remit and I think that's that's espoused a lot of interest in what we've built again with a focus on the public sector. So, I think we if this pie really grows $3.7 trillion, there's going to be a lot of new entrance. We're not trying to take 10% of of Tether's business. We're not trying to take 5% of Circle's business. We want to have, you know, a large stake in in what the public is doing um with their stable coins that can hopefully, you know, create much much more effectiveness, efficiencies, and and low fees within the within the confines of state government. >> Yeah.

>> Going back to the question about the broader US dollar hegemony, I am I am personally a believer in that position that stable coins are good for the US dollar. Um, we've certainly had a couple of conversations with federal agencies, again, super high level, just trying to figure out what we're doing, who've identified very much the same thing. One of the benefits of doing this issuance as the state of Wyoming is that we are doing it as a sovereign entity. So, we're not doing this as a Wyoming bank, a Wyoming trust, or a stateowned bank, or a stateowned trust. Those are all different models. Wyoming state doing the issuance itself, which means that other jurisdictions, whether it's the EU and Mika or the JFSA, they can't necessarily tell us what to do. Now, they can certainly govern the exchanges that tokens are listed on, and we would

need perhaps to conform to that or work with issuers there. Um, but we're certainly trying to play nice, but but generally speaking, we've got a lot of leeway here in that capacity. We would answer to the federal government. Obviously, the Genius Act has passed. It is not our perspective that we are subservient to the Genius Act. If you look at how the Genius Act defines their issuers of stable coins or payment stable coins, the permitted payment stable coin issuers, PPSI, that's defined under the term of a person. So a person is a bank, a trust, a fintech, it's any other business entity. It's not states. States are carved out there. So again, we're not necessarily under the Genius Act either, which comes back to the original question from Robbie about

our rules. That's why it's so important that we create a legislative framework here that has been built out over years that has been built out with public comment because for to a certain perspective, we are a very specialized carveout. Uh and that really creates a lot of efficiency for us to go across border, embrace the global remittance use case, uh embrace aid distribution use cases and many things beyond that. I I'm curious why from your perspective why it's so important to have several st lots of state different stable coins out there and if one state issues like Wyoming will we see multiple states issue are we going to have 50 different stable coins for 50 different states in addition to you know the the

dozens if not hundreds of stable coins from privately issued companies why is it important to have lots of different stable coins from your perspective Well, I think we talk about lots of stable coins. We are at an interesting inflection point where a lot of organizations were announcing their stable coins ahead of the Genius Act passing and the Genius Act passed and there's certain prohibitions in there like you there's a prohibition and non-financial companies issuing stable coins, right? And that comes in the back of Walmart and Amazon saying we're working on this too. Um, now Walmart and Amazon are they've got plenty of money to figure out how they could create a, you know, a financial company that'll eventually get something out there.

They'll call it loyalty points and structure it a little bit differently. I'm I'm sure that they'll figure it out in time. But before there was this explosion of actual issuance when people were talking about doing it now there may be some curtailment that may also include the threshold which I believe was originally $10 billion maybe $50 billion in the final version of the Genius Act where if you're under that threshold you can be under a state charter regulated at the state level. You go past that charter and asset management then you have to be under the OC at the national level. So there's different carveouts that can make this more appetizing or less appetizing for different parties. So while I do think we will see many new entrance, I don't think it's going to be hundreds or thousands. I'd also note that once the

treasury rates drop, it will be harder to keep these things afloat. if you're paying if if you're, you know, running a startup with or even a more robust company with a different headcount. If you don't have other ways of of perhaps subsisting yourself beyond just getting dollars in from interest to income um and you need to, you know, pay shareholders out and whatnot, that could be a bit more difficult. So, I don't think there'll be thousands of stable coin issuers, but I think there will be perhaps a few dozen. Um, and they may all serve different roles, right? You know, I talked about how we want to espouse the public sector versus the private sector. Um, there may be some that operate in different NOS and then maybe some that bear interest or not. We we'll see how it all shakes out, but

could >> that's generally the perspective there. And then when it comes to to other states, >> sorry, go ahead. >> No, I had a question, but please continue. >> Sure. When it comes to other states, I mean, my hope is again personally that they'll come to us and and want to work together because we've built out some of the infrastructure rather than starting it all up themselves. Um, I will say the Bank of North Dakota, I think end of last week did announce that they're going to be working on a stable coin. That's again a very specific infrastructure that is I think the really the only operational state bank. So they're going to be working with Fiser. Fiser is working with Circle and I think PayPal andor Paxos behind the scenes on that. So that's um another state getting involved, but I don't

think 50 states will all have their own. Um it's uh you know, again, Wyoming's been spending years to get this done. Legislation procurement actually engaging the vendors, building the platform out, stress testing it, getting the distribution in place. It'd be easier just to collaborate than to compete in some capacity there. So I think we're going to be having some of those conversations in the very near future. >> I my imagination goes wild when it comes to these kinds of things. I can just imagine, you know, Wyoming, state of Wyoming launches the stable coin, get even even potentially gets it integrated into some DeFi applications. Now we have like the the some some you know whether it's federally uh you know doiciled or what have you whether it's private

company public we have a a robust money market of states lending money to one another uh borrowing against you know potential receivables just just really enhancing the capital efficiency of intrastate commerce. >> This is just really exciting. It's just there's no question there. It's just just an idea. Well, one one more Robbie I'll throw at you that's that's even perhaps a bit bigger than that is, you know, I was at Korea blockchain week um spent some time in Japan as well recently. You know, there's a lot of interest there about stable coins as well. They're seeing how fast is moving.

They're seeing how fast the sector is growing. They want to make sure that they've got their respective legislative frameworks in place and that their respective fiat currencies don't get left behind. And one of the things I've been thinking about is again how to collaborate rather than compete. And you mentioned DeFi applications. I think it'd be quite interesting to have liquidity pools that are potentially even state or nation state sponsored where the frontier stable token could provide the US dollar access on one side of that liquidity pool. A one-based stable coin or a yenbased stable coin can provide it for you know Korea or Japan. And you could have deep liquid forex markets with real-time price discovery that kind of mitigates the arbitrage opportunity which is you know great for finance people not great for

the users of the respective fiat currencies. So creating that transparency I think is what this tech is all about. Uh I think it's a weird way to get there. I wouldn't have predicted this myself uh 10 years ago when I started going down this this rabbit hole. But I do think there's a lot of room for us to collaborate with other nations or other governmental entities regardless of whether it's, you know, public private partnership, whether it's another publicly issued stable coin that looks like our stable token, whether it's a CBDC. I mean, there's a lot of of room there to to kind of figure out the direction. >> Yeah, certainly seems like that's the way Europe is going.

>> It seems like you guys had a pretty decent uh you know, I guess idea of where you wanted to launch this thing. you know, arbitrum, optimism based, polygon avalanche um, Ethereum, Salana, maybe I think it was seven or maybe I missed one. Um, how did you guys come up with this idea of where you wanted to launch the stable coin or stable? Is it stable token to you guys or stable coin? >> So, we use the term stable token. Uh, two reasons. One is we like in our state to think about and I think this will be formalized maybe through legislation if it's not already. Um, we we just everything we do is public, right? So, take one step back there. The select committee, which is the branch of the state legislature, the select committee

on blockchain, financial technology, and digital innovation technology. Bit of a mouthful. They're the ones who create these laws. Um, one of the things they're looking at is putting together a token taxonomy bill that will address some of the descriptions of these things that we created, you know, almost 10 years ago that maybe some of it's been adopted by industry, some hasn't. maybe want to conform with different pieces of federal legislation as that comes to fruition like the RFIA and the market structure bills. Um so more to come on that but one of the ways the state thinks about coin versus token is coin is something like a cryptocurrency that has an intrinsic value to it. While a token is a proxy for a real world asset, whether that's a stable token as a proxy for a dollar and cash equivalents,

whether that's RWAS, which are now not in not superly supremely active conversation, but certainly within the lens of the legislature, these are all the things we're we're talking about now. So that that is the stable token, although you know, stable coin is certainly a fairly analogous term. Um, >> that's that's the answer to that that one. Um, As far as yeah the the chain selection I'm curious to understand what the process was because I think >> you know internal inside the microcosm of crypto it's a lot around like you know >> the vibes the grants you know you know tech makes sense I >> could I could assure you this is not grant or vibes based for the state

government working on this >> it's a it's a short question with a bit of detail behind it so >> we have from that sledge committ a uh encouragement to be multi-chain and tech agnostic. Uh when we started this process of chain selection, we did it before we did our procurement process because we've said if we're going to go and ask vendors to build this for us, we need to have a decent idea of how it might look because if we're trying to field uh request for proposal on UTXO systems versus accountbased systems versus DTS, it's it's going to be a lot to handle. And what if the network doesn't work out that we want it to? or

are we going to embed an entire blockchain select blockchain selection matrix within an existing evaluation matrix for the vendor. So we said let's do the blockchain part first. We created a blockchain selection working group. We took about 30 different chains into scope based on market cap or features like privacy, a whole litany of things. And then we created a series of evaluation criteria. First up were several binary criteria. So you had to have those features if you wanted to move forward into scoring. You had to be public and permissionless as a network but have permission onboarding if we needed that. You needed to be supported by onchain analytics firms. You need to have freeze and seize capability for

interdiction and we'll talk more about that I'm sure in a minute. Um, and there's one I'm missing. But if you were able to get through all of those and only half were based on feature set, uh, then we would give a scoring to your network, right? And there was just some kind of like rope technical criteria, right? What's transaction finality, what's average transaction fee, uh, those, you know, what's TVL, what's stable coin TVL, and then because there is no one perfect metric, right? Daily active addresses is not a perfect metric. That's one of many we're considering. And then even beyond that we create additional benefits as a C criteria as a category which is are you working with other states or governments? Do you have use cases on this network that we could foresee ourselves doing? Uh and then additional

kind of uh constraints or concerns which is you know um has the founding team had any kind of legal difficulties? Has this network been compromised in some way shape or form? So we looked at like 30 different metrics and then created a scoring rubric and we didn't pick one network. We picked it essentially was going to be five and we said well we've got a number of layer 2s in here who scored well who are on top of Ethereum. So we ended up with nine candidate blockchains if we called them and then we rolled that into our procurement process looking for vendors to build out a stable coin and we said as long as you have infrastructure that can be deployed on one of these nine networks you can submit a bid. So I went through the whole procurement process and my again original hypothesis was we'd start on

one network and then scale from there over time because interoperability was a nice to have in our token issuance RFP. It wasn't a mandatory criteria but when layer zero got involved with the bidding process they were the highest scoring respondent and they are natively interoperable. So once we brought them online and said, well, we could start with one, but there's really nothing realistically stopping us from being multi-chain out the gate. That is our remit from the legislature. Let's see how far we can get. That allowed us to launch on seven of our nine chains out the gate. And then we've also done this blockchain selection exercise on a quarterly refresh based on interest. So some others so I believe SUI apttoass

hyera have come into scope um and then they'll join sui and stellar as existing candidate blockchains that you know were perhaps selected first and then vendors brought on next so we you know stellar was a candidate since day one then we brought on layer zero layer zero has recently announced support for stellar so whichever chains are left as soon as they're adopted by our mix of token issuance partners infra structure with Fireblocks onchain analytics then we will uh go from there continue to bring them up.

>> Yeah. And so okay so yeah let's let's uh rewind on that uh kind of point that you made with regards to it almost sound like if you needed to have a chain roll back or something then then that was like a part of the criteria. Maybe you could explain on like I I I forgot the exact terminology but >> freeze and sees >> freeze and seize. It sounds like that is something that is kind of it is a part of the traditional uh financial system. It's also a part of like USDC and USDT but not part of things like D or things like these other kind of more like decentralized stable coins. But you're talking about it on a chain level which then would require like sequencer uh roll backing or freezing of assets on

the chain. How does like yeah how how did you guys make that out? >> Not quite the chain level. you had to see examples of stable coins issued on chains that had that feature as part of the smart contract, not the chain itself, right? Um, and I would be concerned. I'm not going to be launching on any chain where any member or validator can start transactions, but but at the same time, real world assets means real world concerns. We are a state. We can't have Wyoming stable tokens that are in the hands of malicious actors. um you know North Korea and the Lazarus group always comes kind of top of mind when they operate in this this space. So we need to have protections there. We need to have compliance features you know on analytics open source intelligence the ability to do freeze and seize which

I'll broadly call interdiction but those are only for our tokens that are issued right and beyond that this because people get a little concerned that a government is able to kind of freeze and seize your tokens. That's always the concern about a CBDC and one that I share. That's why we worked with the legislature to firm up wording uh both from their recommendation to us as well as within our user agreement and token management rules to specify the instances in which we can do interdiction. So for a private issuer they're pretty much their own judge during execution. And if you look at circles terms of service is a whole litany of prohibited transactions and restricted activities. So you can't buy prescription medicine with USDC. You

can't pay your taxes with USDC. I told you a few minutes ago, we want people paying their taxes in Wyoming with a stable token, right? So, we took great care to say that the Wyoming stable tokens can be used for any lawful purpose. We define that. That's federal law in the US. That's Wyoming state law and then your respective jurisdiction, right? So, if you're not using them for, you know, money laundering, then you're going to be okay. Uh and then beyond that, if there is malicious activity detected, we can only act downstream of a valid court order. So we could do a temporary freeze. That's downstream of a T temporary restrictive order, um temporary court order. Uh or we can do a full freeze and seize, but that is

downstream of a final lawful legal directive. And that is again in our rules and user agreement. So I can't wake up on the wrong side of the bed and say, you know, Andy pissed me off. often to go zap his tokens or you know people call into our public comment period ask about like social credit scores. We can't do any of that. It's either we have a valid legal document saying a crime was committed or it's a permitted action, right? So we've done a lot of work to make sure that we've carved that out appropriately because if we start freezing and seizing people's assets, we get pretty close to constitutional concerns right out the gate.

>> Yeah, absolutely. And then this is part of a question I wanted to ask you about the separation between money and state. And I think a lot of people look at the relationship that the Federal Reserve has and how it's been politicized as especially as of as of late. and and they're thinking of Bitcoin as almost as this escape hatch where now they can they can kind of exit to this network state uh and and kind of adhere to this monetary policy that they believe is is a little bit more just and legitimate than kind of whatever Jerome Powell, you know, chooses to say that month. H how do you think about separation between money and state? Do do you do you see stable tokens and and government issued stable tokens as a way

of kind of you know integrating these two more completely or do you see these as now this this kind of burgeoning industry of of uh this really like interesting and diverse kaleidoscope of of currencies that can all kind of flow and and provide value acrruel back to the US dollar as like one united front. H how generally do you think about this? Yeah. So I think the first thing I touch on is that in terms of separation between money and state, states cannot create their own currency and that's that's the constitution. They they cannot issue their own coin, right? So we're very prescriptive to make sure we note that, you know, we have a digital asset backed by dollars and cash equivalents, right? So we're not trying

to create Yobbucks. Um, we certainly see some some call I guess criticism or at least questioning about you know does this bring us back to the wildcat banking days of the 1800s and and I think it's kind of an inane question because you think about that period of time what was the concern you had you know all these states issuing their own currency but you didn't know what was backed by and now we're moving to a system where not only will we have monthly attestation reports we're actually trying to get to real time attestation so you always know what's backed by you always know what's in circulation you're going to have all these details. Okay. Well, what if I couldn't swap my my YO books for, you know, the New Hampshire live free or die dollar. Well, if these things are all

interoperable on a blockchain, which is how I hope they should work, again, you're you're removing the concerns that were there in those, you know, days 200 years ago, right? So, so I kind of refute those those arguments. I think we're just creating a digital proxy for dollar denominated assets that can as you mentioned get the dollar into circulation on a global basis in a way that is fairly immediate right we're on high efficiency networks that settle transactions within you know seconds if that um efficient from a cost perspective where the fees are super low we can go crossborder you have all these efficiencies and I think that'll be a big boon for for the US dollars

hegemony. I really do. >> Yeah, totally agree. Um, last question for you and and this has been a fascinating conversation because you guys have a very different way of looking at things and it it and it feels like a very justifiable you guys take your time, you're thoughtful with all the actions that you've taken when it comes to the roll out of this stable token. Um, and and and it's still at the same time all of that even though it's been thoughtful, it's been extremely aggressive and innovative. You guys have done things that no other state in the USA has done. And you know, this just feels like really core to Wyoming's culture. You guys are pi like pioneers in more ways than one. And so I'm just curious, what is it about Wyoming and

Wyoming's people that also just I I think it would be we'd be remiss without mentioning uh Senator Lumis who has been just steadfast in her development of uh infrastructure, state legislature that enables this industry. Um she's been a big proponent of the Bitcoin uh strategic reserve as well as the digital asset um you know stockpile. these things seem to be making their way through the federal legislature. And so what I'm just curious, have you had any run-ins with her? What how has her leadership been able to help steward this project? And generally, what has been the spirit of the people that has kept the the state of Wyoming going?

>> Well, I think the state has always been an innovator, right? I mean, we're we talked about the LLC's earlier, first state to give women the right to vote. Uh it really is something in the water here. Um, I'd also note that this is a state that when it has a perspective, um, there is a bit of a, you know, don't tell me what to do kind of perspective if it if it's kind of outside the ethos of the state. And one of those I'll mention again with the come with coming back to digital assets is when the state worked on again this is before my time so apologies to the story a little twisted through that kind of historical lens but the state was working on recognizing certain property rights around digital assets and crypto >> and they had you know the state had a

perspective >> the UCCC had a different perspective or was developing a different perspective and I remember a story of legislators receiving a letter about you know if you do this you know the UCCC is going be out of you be out of conformance and yada yada. Uh legislature said, "Well, we're going to do what we think is right for the state and they did it and now the UCCC has adopted functionally the policies of the state of Wyoming." >> Yeah. >> Right. So, so that's been a big piece of it. And with Senator Lumis, you know, her leadership really has been a great great throughput, especially at the federal level. But I, but I will note our chairman is Governor Mark Gordon, who has been in that position and signed the the prepundonderance of bills around crypto and digital assets and blockchain. Um he serves as our chairman

and and it's I'm hardressed to think we would have someone better in that seat. I mean if you look at his background not only is he the governor with a lens for the entire state. He was the treasurer before that. So he understands the kind of the economic remmit for the state. He's entrepreneur and a rancher and at one point he worked as a class B director of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City right around the time of the 2008 financial crisis. So he had a front row seat to the consolidation that moved some power out from the member banks that were intended to, you know, cater to certain jurisdictions they were established in and seeing more of that consolidation at the board of directors in DC. So our whole state really with the leadership and and the work of the

select committee, there's been a lot that's gone into this and and I think only now are people really coming to realize what's been developed over almost a decade in the state of Wyoming as the federal lens turns more towards digital assets. >> Incredible. Anthony Paul, we really appreciate your time and your work pushing the the stable coin agenda or the stable token agenda forward in the state of Wyoming as well as broadly for our our lovely country here America. Um, and just the general outlook that the stable coins have put into place in the hearts and minds of those in DC, in New York, and just broadly domestically as well as globally. It's really impacted the perception of of digital assets in a

very very positive way and really brought has really brought the attention of the biggest players in the world on chain and so we couldn't have done it without you man and we appreciate your time today. >> Well, thank you for giving me the time a day to uh share it with you and your audience. We appreciate it. >> Absolutely. Keep keep drinking water anytime. >> Something in the water. Talk soon. >> Thanks, Anthony. Peace out, man. Cheers. Bye. >> More states should be >> all right. pretty good. Uh pretty good episode. That was one of my favorite stabled up so far, actually. >> Yeah. Um I I I really thought it was uh >> Yeah, it was just it was it was just quality.

>> Yeah, I I I think so, too. I I really think they're tapping into something that more states are going to are going to they're going to look at and they're going to go follow suit. And so rather than build it out themselves, I I think that they should go call the state of Wyoming, like states should work together. that, you know, this is the nature of a united >> republic. >> So, I I really think that, you know, we're going to start to see this play out. >> Um, >> he you know, I he's talking about international finance and and, you know, make, you know, developing a robust forex foreign exchange of currencies.

>> Yep. Man, I really like the idea of states uh exchanging, you know, e each states don't have the ability to issue their own currencies. They do have the ability to issue a form of the US dollar. That's what they've effectively done. And each state has a treasury that they use to manage capital when they have their citizens pay state taxes and then they use that for social programs in the state like education. And I just think having our treasur like our state treasuries more efficient, having them borrow against one another, exchange capital and make and generate loans that they're issuing to different states. I just think this is going to create a a

really robust uh money market and economy for intrastate finance. And I I think uh that occurring onchain is ultimately going to be a lot more verifiable and transparent and and enhance all the benefits that we see in in regular finance. >> Yeah. And just bring more revenue to the states as well as long as rates stay somewhat, you know, anything above like two 3%. So >> state treasuries probably are paying bank fees and they're paying the cost of capital. >> Oh yeah. >> To to traditional banks and they probably don't need to do that. >> No. and and we can lower cost and we can increase revenue to the states which ultimately is going to make make our state safer. They're going to make our states, you know, uh educational programs better. Teachers are going to

be better paid. Cops and police officers going to be better paid. Maybe there's healthcare involved. There's all these all these programs that just generally we're just, you know, if we're making these things more efficient, uh we don't have to be paying to some of the waste. >> Yeah. All right, guys. We'll take a quick break and then we'll be back next with the Galaxy Ventures guys talking about some of the venture outlook in crypto as well as what we have with the Enzo mainet launch. So, be right back in just a sec and we'll see you guys on the other Okay. I finally start putting video podcasts

on Netflix next year. >> Oh boy, it's really happening. The roll up on Netflix. >> Yeah, imagine that. Eh, >> I think Yeah, we're live. Let's go. >> Um, yeah. Yeah, that that would be kind of cool. >> That'd be dope. So, I guess the Monad claim went well today. I mean, I think I don't think anything happened. I think everything's good. Um, there's just kind of a connect like you can >> Did you claim? >> Well, I connected I think I connected a wallet and my Twitter, but and it gave me a kind of a card. It said I'm It said my airdrop level is you're cooked, which wasn't the most uh polish thing to hear. You're

cuckooked. >> Yo, that's hilarious, dude. >> So, I don't know. I have my Monad card, which is supposed to be bullish, but I I don't have like an amount like an amount of modad that I've been >> uh attributed. >> Okay. Um I'm going to try to claim this right now. Um Leo, I'm throwing it up on the shared screen. Um I'm going to see if I can claim this thing. So, I'm going to sign in. Do you need to sign in with a wallet?

H >> I think a wallet initially. Yes. >> Initially, you you need a wallet first. I don't even have a wallet on this browser. >> Oh, scan code to connect Rabbit. >> Pretty good opsack there. >> Scan code. Okay, I can scan it. Let's see what happens. You might have a refresh. All right, let's see what happens. Connect Phantom. >> All right, I'm going I'm going I'm going long on ETH. >> You're going long on ETH. Yeah, >> it it just looks too good. Too good to be true.

>> Yeah, it does. >> Just ready to rip. >> Ready to rip. >> All right. How do I scan on Phantom Mobile? Let's see. Oh, Monad claim Portal. Okay, here we go. You can do it on here, I think. Connect. Sign in. Confirm. Accept. Yeah, I don't think this is really working that well. Yeah, they had quite a few issues with Monad today.

>> Apparently, there was so much uh activity people took down. Let's all run to claim the airdrop when it's like available for so long and it's not really a big deal, but we're all going to rush to claim it. >> I mean, they make a lot of noise about it. They make an announcement. You you in this day and age, the attention span is so short, it's like, if I'm not doing it right now, I'm not going to do it. >> Yeah. So, what are you doing? You're going long on on ETH after the whole world got liquidated. Do you decide that it's your turn? >> Yes. >> Nice. >> Exactly.

So, what's the Are you using a >> Yes. >> Nice. >> I mean, when it comes to a flash crash, I know Lighter was in the news, Hyperliquid in the news, Binance in the news, >> figure out when it comes to a flash crash, the quiet is not really is not really too bad. Like the fact that a didn't really have a ton of like swarm of attention behind it during a flash crash, I think is is bullish for the program.

>> Yeah. All right. Why don't you talk us talk the talk the folks through what you're seeing out there for a second here bud? >> All right. Well, let's take a look on a core market. Ethereum mainet. Oh, let's see. a couple million dollar or excuse me a couple million ETH uh two and a half million ETH supplied upwards of 10 billion dollar supplied on ETH mainet in ETH. Uh the variable APY right now is 2.4%.

That's super chill. That's to borrow ETH though. We're not going to borrow ETH. We don't want to borrow ETH. That would be going short ETH. We want to borrow stables. Uh, it's about the same rate to borrow USDT and USDC. It's 5.67 versus 5.68. It's about the same there. Couple others. Um, USDE is a little bit higher to borrow.

Ripple USD is a little bit lower to borrow. A little bit less demand on Ripple USD. Nothing against those guys. So, that is what we're looking at and we're going to continue to work through a we've got a couple of great speakers that are in the background potentially on a VPN and you know sometimes those VPNs give uh give our guys a couple issues. We're going to get that we're we're going to get that sorted out. Um let's see what else do we have on the docket.

We've got Enzo mainet launch also got word yield basis which I believe uh is going to go live on the four that's today the 14th. Let's see what's going on here. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Yield basis TGE happening on October 15th. Uh shout out to the guys from Legion. These guys did great. Uh they ran yield basis. Um uh it was it was a very recent round. I think you would really consider it an ICO, but uh the yield basis TGE happening tomorrow, October 15th. Tokens

to be distributed by Yield Basis at 10 a.m. UTC. Spot trading will open one hour later at 11 a.m. UTC. Tokens will be aird dropped. No need to claim. and Legion will be facilitating this based on uh all of the uh attention and activity that they saw from the Legion YB sale. Again, those tokens will be air dropped directly to your deposit wallet. The rollup did participate in the YB sale. We're pretty stoked. Michael is the previous founder of Curve uh which is obviously still a very uh influential and relevant um market when it comes to stable coin trading. So uh that is going to be very very cool.

Um and we're going to see more of this as we continue just token launches left and right. All right, we're gonna we're going to get back to longing ETH. It's a pretty insane whip saw that we've seen over the last few days. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. We're going to make some things happen.

Got transactions being approved. This is what we used to do. For all the OGs out there who remember the early days of the rollup, go back watch some of our watch some of our some of our videos back when we were just getting started and we had um screenshared tutorials of how to use these applications. We would be uh using applications, using the chain, which is a rare occurrence these days, but we would actually show you guys in real time how to use some of these apps and opportunities that became available.

>> Yeah, man. Um >> Oh, you're back. Oh, Andy, welcome back to the show. >> Wait, what happened while I was gone? >> Oh, nothing. Just, you know, >> you guys just went long on ETH. >> We went long on ETH and uh we talked about yield basis TGE tomorrow. >> Oh, yeah. That's going to be big. What is the pre-market uh launched? >> Oh, good question. >> Probably is. It's probably trading around a bill. >> That's exciting. What was the Legion round at? >> Uh I was at 200 million.

>> A quick little 5x for the lads. >> Yeah, for anyone who got in, I think it's going to be really good. Um with no with no unlocks as as well. It's pretty bullish. All right. So, no unlocks. What do we think this thing is going to do on launch? >> Probably pump, dude. Oh, wow. Bitcoin's ripping dude. >> There you go, >> man. Bitcoin's going to just completely take down that dip that it had yesterday. Uh, quick. >> Get with the program, brother. We're going long.

>> Wow, Bitcoin looks great, man. >> You own any Bitcoin? >> Barely. Barely. >> Barely. All right, guys. I think we're just waiting for the Galaxy folks. I think we may have to push them. Um, just uh it's just some firewall stuff that we deal with with these institutional folk. It's pretty common, actually, unfortunately. Um, but yeah, ETH 113267 pretty damn good. Not too shabby, I would say. >> Not at all.

I got some stuff that I want to talk about um in the meantime since I think we're gonna I think we're going to just skip to to Connor and the Enzo guys. >> Okay. What's the A situation looking like over there? >> Um, >> yeah, we're we're making transactions.

You know, we've got proper OPSAC here at the rollup. So, >> yeah, we >> we've got to approve on a few different fronts. >> Nice. Um, yeah, I'm going to pull up some I'm going to pull up a couple tweets. I think there's a >> Yeah, go for it. There's some good ones here. Uh, this one from the Limitless guy was absolutely insane.

Binance is getting cooked right now. Really bad. >> Again, framework guys called it. I It's so funny, dude. when uh yesterday, you know, they talked about like, okay, well, a when they initially saw the market crashing, you know, it's like generally long-term time horizons, everything's okay, great, sure. But it's that, you know, after you kind of get the initial reaction out of the way, it's like, okay, well, what are we buying? I asked them like, what was the conclusion from that conversation? And they were like, yeah, what do you want?

Just just fill out the form. Ticker, entry, exit, stop-loss, take profit. on the form. >> No way. >> And uh >> yeah, that's what they said that I mean they asked if we want anything >> if we want the entry, right? Um but I think just the followup to that would have been Yeah. Well, because those guys are so bearish, Binance, lack of disclosure, lack of transparency. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, you know, when are we shorting BNB? >> What's what's the entry? >> Well, I don't really think that's a great call. Um, but this guy, this guy that we're about to show on the screen, he did short it and called it and he was because this tweet. So, I'm going to pull his tweet up now. Um, and yeah, it's pretty it's pretty it's pretty

intense from CJ, the founder of Limitless. >> Oh, it's coming up on the screen. >> Yeah, it's coming. Man, the market looks great. That that that was the retest for Bitcoin. I think I'm not sure >> that that was sort of the strategy here was that yeah, you know, we we obviously dumped uh Bitcoin dipped a little bit back under 110 closer to 109. Um and you do get a little bit of a retest and you want to make sure that confirms that it's a retest and it's not like a full sweep and and another leg lower. But I think I mean I'm curious about your opinion. You'd say that we've confirmed this is a a retest and not a sweep lower.

Yeah, I think so, too. >> I mean, we'll see. But when you get I mean, Jerome Pal just said that that they're going to start cutting back on QT. >> Yep. >> Which is huge. Wow. The B the Binance founder just blocked this guy CJ. All right, let's get this up on the screen. Um and we'll we'll we'll talk through this one. So um offer from Binance for to to list Limitless token 1% airdrop on day one alpha listing 3% further air dropdrops in 6 months 1% for marketing at Binance full discretion 100% TVL for token pool and pancake swap 250k security deposit 3% reserve >> for B&B hodler program 200k worth of

tokens at MFN price for Binance affiliate marketers $2 million BNB security deposit for spot listing offer from Coinbase. Build something meaningful on base, >> dude. >> Cuz you know when you list on like a drrome, you get you get uh listed on Coinbase. Now >> this guy's that is true and I expect any centralized exchange that does not do this is going to lose. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so if Binance is asking all this and Coinbase is just asking that, you can see where you're going to launch obviously and that is the nature of uh retention these days when it comes to listings.

I'm I mean I don't know for sure. I don't have any intel, but C I got to think CJ's going to get sued into an oblivion. You don't you sign like not just NDAs, but like all kinds of things before you get a term sheet like this? >> Yeah. I mean, dude. I mean, um, so I guess two people are getting fired today. Well, he just tweets. He's been tweeting some crazy stuff. Um, >> TJ. >> Yeah. So, apparently apparently he didn't sign an NDA.

Um, and yeah, this guy's going out on like a this guy's like going on a what do they call it when you're >> revenge tour? >> Like a scapegoat for the industry. >> A whistleblower. He's going full whistleblower vibes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can see that. >> I mean, yeah, he's just I mean Yeah. I mean, dude, this is the reality, though. People are fed up with Binance with all this stuff. >> Mhm. >> They're not having it anymore. And this tweet just kind of shows it straight up. >> Mhm.

>> Like, it's pretty it's pretty hardcore. >> Oh, yeah. So, um yeah, I mean we we're going to get our boy um from Enzo up next. He is our he is our our next guest. And yeah, we're going to just take another quick break and I got a couple more tweets to show on screen. Um and we'll be right back in like literally 10 seconds. So, just be right back for you guys.

So, this tweet from Moon I thought was pretty funny, man. >> Yeah. What did you get there? >> The best time to farm perplexes is the day after everyone gets liquidated farming perexes. This is kind of the same idea. It's like you LP when there's not a lot of other liquidity so you get a bigger share of the >> Oh, I got rinsed and everyone's probably have going to be scarred from uh you know doing this >> and yeah, I mean it it seems like it >> so basically what it sounds like what what what matters for the market right now is for ETH to break 5K.

Um, and I think that farming perplexes is it like I was talking to, you know, we were talking to Vance and those guys about it. >> Mhm. >> And they thought it was kind of silly, but they thought it was a fun way to like get uh more hype exposure basically, >> if you know what I mean. >> That I mean, yes, but it al that also sounds like what, you know, most people who lose their shirt on altcoins say about Bitcoin. Like, I'm just trying to I just I'm just trying to stack. >> I'm just trying to stack some sass. just buying coins as a way of of increasing my Bitcoin exposure >> and then and then >> but I mean I still think the lighter airdrop is going to be pretty massive to

be honest. >> I think so too. And you think there's still time to deposit and farm? They haven't done like snapshots yet? >> No. I mean they just left mainet beta lighter did. Um, so I got to open up variational lighter maybe one or two others. Pacifica. Um, I think it's worth it. I think it's I think everyone just got washed. I mean, I just I don't Yeah, literally just 1x strategies just >> Where did you Where did you originate this idea? Did you hear it from someone or did was this just a a breakthrough that you had?

>> This is a tweet from Moon. >> Oh. Oh, I see. Okay. And then this is kind of what And you don't think this is a joke? This is like actually >> No, he's dead ass being serious. 100% being serious. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, >> I believe it. >> I mean, we'll see. I mean, I if you even just deposit, there's probably there's probably a baseline airdrop that you can do. >> Yeah. Xen Crypto. These guys come in the stream and they comment XEN Zen Crypto Gem and it's like, dude, no one's buying Zen Crypto. Sorry, bud.

What even is Zen Xen? >> Don't give in. >> They want you to They want you to pull it up. >> Zen crypto. Oh my gosh. Seven $7 million fully diluted valuation. Down 100%. Literally says I've never seen a crypto chart say down 100%. My gosh, dude. What is the state of things? M >> um yeah, I think Connor's going to join here in a sec. Um and roll. >> Um and then Yeah.

>> Great. >> So, >> it's kind of fun doing stuff on chain when gas is so low. >> Yeah. Well, it's pretty cheap, isn't it? It's fast. I mean, ETH's going now. Bitcoin's going, too. >> Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Um Yeah. But also, gas spiked when it was supposed to. Um, if it's ever supposed to spiked during the flash gra crash on Friday. It got up to like 250. Haven't seen gas that high in a long, long time. What we haven't looked at in a long time is the ultrasound. Money >> chart of the burn.

>> Yeah. >> Where did all that rhetoric go? >> Is that inflationary? supply growth 66% a year. >> Yeah. No, ETH's not deflationary. >> No, it's not. >> Yeah. No, it's not. That's okay though. >> It's not. But it's okay because uh it probably shouldn't be. >> Why? >> Uh cuz just deflate, deflate, deflate.

And there's no ETH left. >> Yeah, but that's never going to happen, dude. >> No, because ETH isn't deflationary. >> This guy's going off about Zen. Burned 80,000 Ether. Takes up 4% of the Ethereum blockchain. Oh my gosh, dude. I'm pretty sure it's a scam. >> Sounds like it probably is. Yeah, >> I'm pretty sure you're talking about a scam here. >> I'm Yeah, chat is so funny.

Pretty sure that's his game. Um okay. All right. All right. All right. Um, that is the Moon Tweet. I think we're just waiting on Connor. Um, I'm going to take another quick break and we'll be back for Connor and I'll see you guys in a sec and we'll get we'll get started up with Connor. Alrighty. Well, Enzo launched their

mainet today, so we'll have Connor on on up here shortly to talk about that. Uh, should be good. And, you know, these guys powered a lot of like the bar chain stuff. I did think they did some of the plasma predeposit stuff. >> So, so yeah, should be should be good. Bara chain. >> What happened there? That's a question for Connor. >> What happened to Barra Zara?

>> Yeah, Enzo is part of the big intense. >> Yes, man. That soon token um SA optimistic network, dude. Ripping. Yep. >> It's up like 10x since August. >> Crazy run. Good idea. >> All right, guys. We're gonna get Connor up. Last segment of the day and we got one word to do. So, um, yeah, it should be good. Should be good. Mainet season.

>> Mainet season. Let's go. >> Conor Connor's in the deck clowning our team. >> Wow. the the $10 billion hyperunit whale has officially closed his $500 million short >> on Bitcoin. >> That was the last straw. >> Yeah, let's bring him up. >> Let's bring Connor up. That is a big big That's probably what this move was just him closing that short. >> Could be. >> Honestly, >> could be. >> I think it probably was. So >> that's the that's the thing. A lot of this occurs in public and then we uh we draw our own conclusions. We're gonna bring Connor up and uh draw some conclusions about Enzo mainet. Let's go.

There he is. >> Connor, what's going on, man? >> Good. How are you? Good to see you, man. Thank you for having me, >> dude. Are you uh are you pretty tired? H how are you feeling? >> Tired, but energized. It's quite rewarding. Uh all the team, I think each person slept five, six hours each in the last three days. Um, so you know, we're pushing through, but it's went really well. Everyone's very happy with it and the team and those outside. So, we're uh looking forward to next steps. >> Yeah, man. I mean, you guys have already been like active in, you know, in the pre-eposit campaign for like bar chain and for some of these other kind of big chain launches. So, it's like this isn't like other mainet launches where the

product and token all goes live at once. It's like the product's already been live, the token has launched. >> Yeah. you know, how how is this different from other mainet launches? You know, from the founder perspective, you know, you you guys have already obviously had product product market fit. >> We were actually talking about this this morning. We are, weirdly enough, comfortable with the situation because we've done some massive launches, right? Like the bear chain, we moved $3.1 billion in 3 days. We supported Uni Chain on a launch. We supported Sonic, >> also Katana, also Plume. So for us it's more how is the market going to receive this when we launch a token? Is the validators going to be up there? Are

they going to be running? Are they going to be able to handle the traffic? That part we can't control, right? Because it's fully decentralized at that stage. And but I would say being able to launch just a token with the network with the validators is a lot more simple than um launching a whole product of $3.1 billion in 3 days. Right? what can go wrong in a token launch in comparison to people's hard earned cash of 3.1 billion. You know, there there's limiting factors at that stage. So, I would say this is a lot less um troublesome than launching products all the time.

>> Um and other teams that are launching it both at the same time, it's a bit hard to do both at once. Um, anyone that does want to launch, I would suggest just launch, you know, products first, get that traction, get the product market fit, and then if you do need a token to decentralize, then do it. But don't decentralize just to decentralize. Um, >> we were kind of fortunate in that way that we done the two pivots of Enso been around for four and a half years and you know, we we generate revenue. We generate um good customer base as well with over 145 plus revenue. So 145 plus enterprises using in production as of today. So yeah, to answer your questions straight, it's it's another it's another launch,

right? It's just stage one, you know. >> And so for for anyone who's unfamiliar because like you said, you guys have been building for four and a half years. You were really deep and I think kind of cut your teeth on the intense uh meta that was was really part of kind of the the infrastructure improvements that took place 23 24. Um, how did you facilitate the $3 billion that you helped move on on Bar Chain, the Uni Chain launch that you helped facilitate? What what role did you play in those launches?

>> Yeah, we allow people to just build a front end. Um, people don't need to build smart contracts, don't need to build the onchain interactions anymore. All they need to do is build a front end, right? Um what this results in is projects like Royo Boco which is a bar chain launch saying hey I want to have incentive campaigns of $3.1 billion going from Ethereum and all these different chains into over 80 plus different DeFi combinations on day one in DeFi. So what in Ber excuse me I've not really slept much the last days you know it's good >> I can tell >> the the reality is that 80 different unique D5 combinations of brand new protocols that have just been created

right so let's say Doomite let's say etheri was also on there let's say concrete etc etc to be able to interact with these protocols and then also saying hey I want to do lend I want to borrow I want to leverage this I want to then also enter one site ed liquidity and also intervall interchain quite frankly um wasn't really um there at that stage um in terms of usage and we kind of supported on that. So what we done was we built all these onchain inter in integrations combined all these together into one simple part so people could just put a UI say okay I want to enter into all these D5 positions in one transaction cool done you want to then do all the APY TVL logos all the data

balances cool sweet done um similar to uni chain right whenever unis swap launch again insul's been in the background quite a lot um not really public facing that's kind of where we're transition positioning now as a company which ironically we found the gap I thought the gap was larger from retail understanding to developer understanding it's a bit less actually once you just simplify it like the word choice intense you know I I think it's a an absolute fabrication of a word made up from nowhere like it doesn't make sense to anyone that's why we call it shortcuts of blockchain right shortcut you want to build your own thing so forth so forth um and yeah so uni chain said hey I

position of V2 and V3 and I want to migrate them over to this brand new blockchain called Uni Chain and into V4. But my users I have billions of TVL and V2 and V3 positions and it's so hard to men to redeem take the underlying bridge swap and also mint into V4. Do that all without transaction. So all of this was was powered by Enso and it's um it's interesting because now the people don't need to build smart contracts themselves. They don't need to build all these onchain integrations which by the way we didn't even realize how large this problem was. Um hey like we thought it was just hey let's integrate these

DeFi protocols man it's like every single project in crypto. Um, we've ironically stumbled on this problem set by having our own issue by pivoting twice, right? Um, essentially how do I read and write on shape? That's literally the problem. How do I read and how do I write on chain? Every single project, no matter what you are, whether you're a DeFi protocol, whether you're an LST, whether you're an AI project, whether you're real world assets, whether you're a stable coin, whatever it may be, you still have that project. You still have that issue. So even if you come up with a new narrative that gets lodged tomorrow, you still need to read and write on trade and then so still that central piece. Um so it's it's very interesting to to have got to this position. Does does having a token

help you uh with this in the future like with incentives or with like the general protocol design? How do you how do you want to kind of use the Enzo token to your advantage now? >> Yeah. So I think a lot of people launching tokens is Yeah. you know, you probably know how I think I don't think they need them. Um, I think we and I know that we need them. So, we have over 250 plus onchain protocols available through us. So, let's say you're developer and you're like, "Hey, I want to offer all these smart contracts, all these protocols through one super app." Okay, cool. Say you're Neo Bank, you want to offer a Moro, Oiler, you would integrate that yourself. Now, then, so you just integrate one tool and you get access to all of the ecosystem. And what does that look like as of today? Okay,

there's 250 plus, but there's over a thousand plus different blockchains. There's over 43 million smart contracts that live in Ethereum alone. Okay, multiply this by 10x. Multiply this by 100x. If we see this as the new financial future and the new internet rails of this whole world essentially, and we expect just the ENSO team to build all these integrations ourselves, we're done. We need to open this up to allow people to add to ENO network saying, "Hey, I have a brand new protocol. Let me add it into ENO. I have a new protocol. I have a new blockchain.

Let me add it into ENSO." So that straight away whenever they launch, they have all these 145 plus large enterprises using their brand new project or train from day one becomes like a de facto distribution channel. So what the token kind of helps us to do is transition us as a company from building integrations kind of incentivizing people to add integrations. Now what's ironic out of this um we've not incentivized anyone to add any integrations purely organic people like I've got a new protocol I need users I want revenue and I want distribution.

All right I'm just going to add myself to ENSO's infrastructure sweet win-win situation for everyone. Um, so the the network actually starts to become a bit more critical component of this ecosystem. So we have 2,800 devs in web 3. We have 47 million devs in web 2. And if we actually think that we're anywhere mass adoption, guys, like you know, we need to bit of reality check in this industry. We want to break from the web three devs into web two devs. Okay, let's see if we do that and we get to 2.8 million devs, right? we 100x of the devs that we have in crypto and they're all using Eno. Okay, somebody doesn't like let's say the 2,00 two 250,000 apps

using it being used in crypto and they're all using Enzo just shut down Eno, right? Logically makes sense for everyone in the ecosystem building using ENSO, you cut out you cut out ENSO. So, Enssonet token actually allows us to distribute this across all of the world to ensure that once we do have these 2.8 million devs, even 28 million devs and we've got millions of apps that are bridging web 2 and web 3 together, you can't bring it down. It's kind of like what Ethereum was back in the day, right? You got smart contracts, you can't stop. Now, you can build applications across any chain of any protocol all within a weekend instead of six months. And h how much of the adoption that you've seen on Enzo in

particular? And grant there's still a long way to go. How much of this can you attribute to network effects from what you've already built? You have people now coming and finding Enzo organically. They're onboarding naturally. Adoption is happening. Is this going to start to compound? How how can new projects that are looking at the the landscape of liquidity out there and they see oh Enzo's tapped into Uni Chain they're tapped into parachchain they're you know tapped into all these ecosystems what's the benefit that a new project coming on can they also tap into sort of Enzo's ecosystem how how does that process happen on you basically enter an ecosystem that's got group chats with nearly every single team in this whole industry one group chats number two

you're also getting distribution so let's say you are a new protocol and you add into network, you have users from day one. Two, you can generate revenue. Three, you can actually start doing collaborations with the developers inside of the ENSO ecosystem. So, all compounding, all compounding. You've got the brand association. We also do like oneonone one-on-one developer workshops with teams that want to build. Now what I find really really interesting now is we had some ideas of what could be built using Enso and we do ship these ideas because we know our infra really fast it's easy for us like we we built Eno checkout that another team is trying to do and I think they raised over $47 million and we built it in four weeks

and they've not shipped it in three years right we're just like all right fine we'll just do it whole new primitive they talk about it we'll just do it right that stuff people are now starting to do with it. So, which is really interesting. So, there's new ideas. I hadn't even thought about like full automation in web 3. So, you've got like Zapier, drag and drop automation. Okay, they've done that with all all different web 3 transactions. I want to lend. I want to borrow, but I want to buy an NFT based upon this offchain data price. And you're like, whoa, you're bringing all this ecosystem all in one place. And you're like, this has never been done before. This is getting unique. And these guys are raised from like A6 Zed and Coinbase Ventures. And

it's like, okay, let's have a chat. How long did it take you to build this? Oh, it took us a couple of days. And you're like, oh, wow. So, you're in your project. You get access to an ecosystem. You get everything available and you can test to see if people like your product. Wait, are we actually turning into a real industry, not just tokens where people use products? Um, so yeah, just to iterate, people are able to really just build a product, get tap into new ecosystem. If you're building on top using, you get access to everything there. We support you. And then two, if you add underneath to Enso, then you get all that distribution of the people using us. So, it's kind of like a double-sided win-win for everyone.

>> Yeah, Connor, I know you're tired and I know it's been a crazy uh couple days here, so we'll we'll keep this tight. you know, curious what's on the on the docket to fill the end of the year into Q1. What are you guys most prioritizing, you know, internally now that this is this milestone is behind you? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I think we know what works now. Um, we're not a team that had to launch a token and a product at the same time that many people are doing, right? So, this is for us to compound and create this go even more wild. So the next part what we need to do is not only just support Ethereum like EVM we also need to support SVM and MVM right because right now we have so many people asking us saying hey I want

to interact with Salana I want to interact with the sui apttos and so forth but I want to build using I don't want to build all my product for EVM with enso and then another product for that which they have to do manually so I think the biggest thing for us really is to open up to every single different type of chain, every single type of language and honestly it's the holy grail that everyone spoke about in 2017 2018 like allowing developers to build on any chain in any language through one tool. That's a a big big objective for us as a company.

>> Look man, I uh I'm sure you got your hands full. I just want to say congrats again and hope that hope that you feel that it's gone well and that you know you're you're proud of the team and are you going to be in Buenos Cyrus uh in November or no? We'll do hopefully I'll see you there. And um yeah, I must say if you don't mind me saying one, I appreciate you having me on this. And two, I probably am a bit tired, but you know, three, I really want to say that all all of the Enzo team is really putting really putting the work. Like one of our team members fell asleep, you know, in in the office today. Like we are we are going hard. And >> I think for us, this is just again day one. And I always saw people going to

Twitter like day one. Oh, what does that Now I really get it. I understand because you're like, "Oh, wow. Now I can go from like this to >> like this parabolic >> in terms of many different elements, but usage." Um, so yeah, want to say thanks guys uh for having me on today. >> Yeah, thank you for coming. >> We'll have to have you on in in a couple months, closer to the end end of the year, and just see where things are at uh and just stay up to date. We appreciate you coming on as well, and I'll definitely see you in Bernos. That should be fun. >> That is good, guys. Thank you so much. All right, buddy.

>> Cheers, man. See you. >> Man, those mainet grind sessions, man. Those are just those are a different breed. >> Oh, yeah. One one man's destination is another man's journey. And uh shout out Enzo >> on the great journey. >> The the launch looks good. Token's trading around like 3400 FV. Think it's going to do well. Um it's not, you know, too high. Nice start low. May keep pulling back for a bit, but it should kind of level out here. So, not financial advice, but we'll see what what those guys can do. Um, bro, it's been a great stream. Uh, great.

>> This was this was a good one. >> So, we'll have to get the Galaxy guys on next week. >> Um, as we miss them, but otherwise, fantastic. >> Felt wellrounded. Feel like I learned something. Got a new perspective. >> We don't have too many state officials. >> I don't know if the executive director of the Wyoming Stable Token Commission counts as a state official, but that was an interesting one. >> Pretty close. And uh I mean Super State could be its own could be its own state. Uh >> those guys are doing a lot of good good work. >> Yeah, the type of work they're doing. So great stream, Andy. Thanks as always.

>> See you guys tomorrow. >> Much love.