Rollup TV: SmartCon NYC Day 1

Transcript

[music] I'm about [music] back. [music] I'm about to die. [music] >> [music] >> How the [ __ ] [music] [music] I'm back [music]

>> [music] [music] >> We threw down two days live stream. We got an event planned Q4. [music] Stay tuned. We're going into the events business. Robbie Andy the boys out. Two straight [music] days live stream TV number one spot. [music] >> [music]

>> I'm about [music] [music] die. [music] How to [music] [music]

[music] hop up above the >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> We'll see you around the timeline. >> Feels good to be back. >> Welcome to SmartCon, baby. NYC. We're going to zero >> smart con.

>> We're going to zero. >> We're just started. >> Who sold? Did Did somebody sell? Did you sell? >> Um, >> not enough. You didn't sell enough. >> It's red button season. >> Bitcoin falls under 100K. And we're live from SmartCon. >> It is at 100,793. >> About the price today at SmartCon. >> We've got bigger fish to fry. Andy, we're here in New York. Can you please give us your your bullish thesis because cuz I am struggling to see the bullish thesis guys. >> Pull a truck. >> Somebody show me the bullish thesis. Please, please show me the bullish.

>> We got an insane lineup today. We've got our buddy J coming in. He's ready to go. We've got Jackie from Token Relations. She'll make a surprise appearance. >> Oh boy. >> We've got quite a few other names coming in, but my god, can somebody please press the green button? That chair, that chair right over there is going to be the home of some of the top people in finance, some of the top people in fintech, crypto, digital assets. The people who sit on that chair are going to be the people pushing forward this community and the people that are ultimately taking us to the next level and making crypto reality.

>> I think that's awesome, guys. Don't get me wrong, I truly think that that is what we are. concerned about the price, >> but right now BTC just hit 99.9 and everyone's freaking out. >> I think we're going to be all right. >> Everyone on the timeline's freaking out. >> I think if you zoom out and you stay patient, I think you can see that the trend is intact. I think we're here in New York, the home of finance, the the king of capital. And I think America is the place where a lot of innovation is happening both in finance, crypto, and digital assets. And I think that is not slowing down. I think that is the reason to be bull. We've got several catalysts uh that will propel us.

>> Please tell me. >> Well, I think if you look at >> What is the catalyst that you have on on your mind? The only catalyst that I'm seeing is that we're It's looking rough out there, boys. Who is what debts are buying? >> Well, I think if you >> Let's go band for band here. Who you're going to play the bullish card? >> I'm bullish. Yeah, >> I'm gonna play the bearish card. All right, we'll go here. We'll just go for a couple minutes and then we'll have our first guest. All right, so the DATs have no buying powder left. The MNAVs are literally back to one. Micro Strategy is nuking. Uh ETH DATs are selling and um yeah, we're we're in trouble.

>> Uh you you clearly did not tune in for David uh from Hyperlquid Strategies, did you? >> Okay. So, you're talking about a billion dollar liquid debt that has yet to even be started. >> That's right. I'm talking about a a billion dollars of talking about the fresh powder dry powder fresh capital that has yet to come into the industry committed to industry live the last year are out of powder. >> Uh didn't Tom Lee buy $300 million of ETH like two days ago? >> What did that do? >> Okay. So that's argument number one. >> I I'd say I'd say argument number one is that DATs are not done buying.

>> Argument number two is stocks have been on a generational tear. >> That's right. There's just no way that they just they can't keep going up forever. If they pull back, we're gonna get a deeper pullback. >> So, how many times do people that call tops get to call tops? [laughter] >> Because after you say something is going to happen five, six, seven, eight times, >> you mean like alt season, >> right? So, if you're >> Ben Cohen haters, >> so maybe if after you say it eight times, if it happens the ninth time, you get you get to call yourself correct, >> right? But that would mean that, you know, you went one for nine [laughter] and that that batting average doesn't even hold up for minor leaguers.

So I think >> All right, boys. Well, >> I think if you're watching this, you you can understand we're we're uh we're in the heart of uh of what is a really really fantastic uh industry movement. >> Yeah. I mean, look, it's all happening. >> Everything is happening, >> but it always all happens at the end. >> Does it feel like the end? >> No, it feels like the beginning. Well, it feels like the end of the of the old feels like the beginning of a a a newer, longer, less exciting, more slow, mature phase of adoption that is at the it feels like the last harrah. Like it feels like the party lights just went out and like the cops just showed up, but like the cops aren't trying to shut it down. They're just taking all the

alcohol out of the party. So, it's like whatever happens from like 4 a.m. onwards, it's just going to be no booze. That's what it feels like. Feels like we just we just went to four the last two years and it's four it's 401 the cops showed up and it's a it's a dry party from here on out. >> I I have never been to a party like that, but I've been to plenty of parties where there's a lot of fun and it does feel like this is a little bit of a lull uh in the music right now. >> Yes, it definitely is. >> And so what we're going to do is we're going to invite our friend uh >> we've got Jay from Magic Labs. He's gonna come up. He's ready. He's here.

>> Let's get him up. >> We're going to talk to him. >> This is a fantastic >> because we've got an incredible event that's planned >> tomorrow. Jay, welcome to the program, brother. >> Good to see you guys again. >> Great to have you. >> How's treating you? >> I just got here, but I love I love the energy. >> Yeah. >> You know, I mean, I love the blue and >> it's a different kind of conference than like eat them or other conference I've been to, but uh I love it. >> Yeah, it definitely is. I mean, if you want to just build on that, like, you know, we we see, you know, the type of people we can see people in suits. You don't really get much of that at ETH Denver. As far as the convergence between like crypto and Wall Street, how

do you how do you see this manifesting in these sorts of events? I mean New York is the hub of finance and I'm really glad to see a lot of projects building like in in New York but also you know like business and finance people are coming in especially smartcon you know people attending this conference and yeah I think people are ready to not just build but actually participate like onchain finance and that is going to be the new finance right so yeah super exciting >> we're we're in the mix and uh and Jay I mean co-founder president of magic labs magic is incredible growth and and has gotten set up. You guys have 50 million wallets, 200,000 developers. You guys like work with the likes of Wallet Connect, Poly Market. I mean, all kinds of great great partnerships and and uh

industry partners that are out there. I mean, maybe you can just talk about, you know, how how you've arrived to this point. You guys have also launched Newton, right? Um and so between Magic and Newton, you guys have has become a staple of the industry. What what has it been like? Maybe just give us a recap as to, you know, how how you guys ended up here. Yeah, I mean we started what like almost eight years ago and with the vision of just making onboarding really simple. Um a lot of people at the time were focused on onboarding like web3 savvy users and those meta mask and like you know other self-custody wallets and we wanted to take a different approach and really like prep for the next three or four years and we built in better wallets what like in 2019 and we really

started seeing traction in 2021ish when e5 bun happened and then fd happened and poly market started in I think 2020 or 2021 and um yeah like a lot of developers that we've been working with we're seeing a lot of great successes is like with poly market immutable wallet connect and so on. Um but one thing that we focused on from the beginning was balancing between UX and security. >> So when it comes to onboarding uh we took you know web two login that's pretty much out there already and projecting that onto the web 3 technology but then at the same time since in web 3 identity is yourself plus the wallet wallet contains assets. So there needs to be great security uh

while abstracting away like all the complexities of using web 3 right um so that's why we built the key management and then that eventually became embedded wallets and now developers and enterprises like neighbor orbs etc uh they can easily enable um onboarding for the like web users >> however um one thing that we saw was a lot of yeah gaps at the transaction layer and especially now with rwas and a lot of finance institutions uh interested in you know uh issuing their tokens real world assets onto web3 plus um now I think when it comes to transactions efficiency can be really unlocked with AI um not only can AI make better decisions for you it can actually

you know perform while you're asleep and it can you can also manage like not just one AI agent yourself but like hundreds or thousands in the future it's going to be AI agent and AI agent talking to each other there's going to be like swarm of AIS, right? So >> all that can actually enabled not just through onboarding, but we feel like security needs to be there first. >> So we kind of flipped it uh with onboarding humans, it was more about UX that we we had to change and security backing it up. Right now at the onchain layer, it's about transactions and that involves a lot of money and there's a lot of volume already already happening and there'll be a lot more volume when web two, you know, projects on web three, right? So um how we thought about that was you know like people talk about

code is law and I agree uh but execution code at the VM layer that shouldn't be the law what we feel is that code should be can't can't just be like immutable it actually needs to be mutable but it needs to uh be compliant and that's where um the policy aspect comes in so we call like policy is the law right and how this works with Newton is that um basically policy runs on an offchain environment And you're able to pull in external data sources. You can like chain analysis, coin market cap, weather data, any data that's evolving, right? We we're able to pull all those external external data sources. And there's a specific programming language called uh RIGO, which is widely used within web 2. We brought that on to web 3. Uh and Newton

is able to run those policies that can be defined by developers or it's very easy for financial institutions like uh enterprise just to define. And then that policy can be run in parallel with transaction being u first evaluated. So if the policy is evaluated to be false then transaction won't go through right >> that is like the switch I would say like I I wouldn't say like dead men switch but um that is one layer that I think needs to be added so that these institutions are comfortable um putting their assets on chain. It's not only about compliance offchain. Of course, you got to go through, you know, traditional rails to uh regulation, all that to get it uh onto web 3, but when it comes to transferability and that you want actual volume to be happening. I

and I think that's why we're not seeing as much activity on the transaction yet. There's a lot of issuances that I think are happening now. Uh obviously, we're seeing a lot of people here at small doing that. Uh but Newton is really again thinking more for the future, but I don't think future is that far away. only like a year or two away just looking at clarity act how that's progressing and obviously with the new administration and um just seeing a lot of products um actively involved in this space >> um yeah so mutton is really here to solve the security aspect when it comes to transaction >> we uh we we had a a fellow from uh the payments team from polygon earlier and he spoke about how the goal is to make money move like information does right information from a text to a tweet to a

post to anything it flows so effortlessly and efficiently through the inter internet and and basically we're getting there with stable coins and we're getting there with uh you know you know blockchain composability these types of things. What you're saying is that for this to happen in this agentic future that there needs to be guardrails there needs to be a sort of policy around how uh you know these flows happen. Yeah. uh because you know when it comes to human to human human interactions of course we can make these um you know I can make my best judgment of sending money or doing a swap or a transfer but when it comes to agentic flows there needs to be this general kind of like layer of of guidance of guardrails and and so when it comes to

you know we're at smart hunt obviously it's uh it's RWA it's stable coin it's all that when it comes to you know this landscape this niche how do you think about uh policy with regards to RWA with with regards to institutional clients, you know, what do they need from a company like Newton to be able to actually use uh these agentic flows as well as just blockchain rails in general? >> Yeah. Um on the offchain compliance part, I think that's already been solved as in the enterprise there and it's more about piecing them together to just make issuance uh quite easy. Where we come in is uh we believe that there needs to be both off-chain and onchain policy uh evaluations happening and enforcement happening and of course you can rely on the front end and obviously us being a

wallet provider um wallets have evolved from just onboarding to um adding policy engine adding like transaction monitoring. So while it's kind of like the core um like a piece now that that that's been pulling in these other legos right but it's still offchain there still can be mistakes that can be made. it's not part of the critical flow and when the transaction piece comes in is like we believe that there needs to be a policy that's tied to transaction directly. So to answer your question, uh this is applicable for like RWAs and stable coins. For example, stable coins uh you create a pool. Yeah. a unis swap v4 pool that has specific act that only gives specific specific access to like credit investors or like jurisdictions and that can be coded into the policy

that uh you define during and then for RWAs even uh you you may want to programmatically um like tokens right not only going through like uh the chat virils but uh the future is you want it to be really programmable and really easy to issue and like transfer tokens and that needs to be on chain Um and the other part is we we're thinking about interoperability and like um like smoothness of smoothness of flow like in mind as well. So when you look at these offchain rails it's not interoperable you know it's kind of like >> yeah it's like well garden right but when it comes to us we're building an onchain protocol that can't interact with multiple blockchains like polygon or others even SVMs and VMs in the

future. So yeah, um >> I would say from like the the builder layer, that's something that we've been focusing on, but on the RWA part to answer your question again, um it's more the onchain aspect that we're able to provide uh to this like RWA and stable coin space. >> Yeah. Well, one of the things I appreciate about about Magic is that you guys early on did not fall for the decentralization theater, right? There was it was all decentralization, code is law, that all great, but you didn't you didn't kind of drink the Kool-Aid of of the ideology. You said, "Look, people still need uh a connection to their wallet. It needs to be more familiar. We can't just throw people into self-custody and and think that they're just going to figure it out." There's some people that are ready to take that leap, others that aren't. And you guys

have made um a lot of applications like Poly Market a lot more approachable as a result of doing that. How does that scale to enterprise? like you you know that opened up a lot of consumer applications ju just basically the sign up with email is something that's so much more familiar than a seed phrase >> enterprise is a little bit of a different world how are you guys starting to now go and transition and shift into the enterprise world what are you guys doing to support enterprises that are coming into the space >> yeah developer enterprise are very different when it comes to the motion and uh for developers they really challenge us to um >> yeah for example like UX performance reliability they really care a lot about

that a lot about that and poly market obviously with the election and now with the sports betting and obviously uh today election going on within New York um yeah there's always like always a lot of demand and volume coming uh however like there I would say developers are more comfortable when we kind of define or recommend the UX for them for the enterprise they have certain preferences and they all have I would say like yeah there's a there's some like overlap when it comes to these requires requirements but they're very specific usually and different for enterprise. Uh so from the UX point of view we made it very easy to for for wallet meta wallet to be pluggable into their needs. Uh but then uh when it comes to policies or I mean before I talk to policies uh enterprises

actually want more like a one-stop shop. So it's not just a wallet. They want to be able to um for example use like node providers and >> NFT data like DeFi data. They want that allin-one and they want the composable as well >> of course >> and in a traditional offchain environment or like the business you know like working with guys like alchemy or quick node um and then working with like morales etc working all as one is quite hard when it comes to running the go to market motions yeah even from even for building as well >> uh so our learning from that and applying to policy is that um yeah these guys want to define policies on their own they want to be able to pull data sources offchain data sources from the sources that they trust So um there's there's an option where

they can go integrate like chain analysis of their own like coin market cap etc. right but what we're really going for is like the ecosystem policies that can pull external data sources and we want that to be composable. So it's kind of like a Lego block that we have created. So now enterprise they may ask for >> XYZ data sources that can be easily uh pluggable and we can provide that just through like our policy engine. Right. Yeah. Um so we've kind of built it in a way that it's again Lego blocks but um very like configurable right >> so that we we're able to support the enterprises. So now given that foundation, talk to us about Newton, right? Because now Newton is is helping to compose and configure some of these AI workflows, can you just describe how you're going to augment these Lego

blocks, this foundation that you described, all of these policies that enterprises can leverage? How will Newton help to coordinate amongst those policies? Yeah, it's really a combination of magic and actually so we spent a good chunk of time last quarter and and before to define a full like protocol spec and then we're pretty close to launching the mainet. uh when it comes to composability configurability we've really adopted like the D5 Lego block model right and that is ready but now when it comes to enabling it for the enterprises that that requires both matching union together yeah >> so the stack that we see is we call it like the trust stack um the wallet embedded wallet at the top uh that's connected to like a smart wallet um where there's no vendor lock in and

there's seven signal to enabled as well yeah >> and through that that is able to adopt a policy engine uh pretty much through smart contracts and it's connected to our mainet which is uh built through a layer. >> Yeah. >> And that three components really define the trust stack, right? Um and >> I would say of course like everyone's really excited about RWAS and stable coins and their cool use cases we talked about >> of course >> but but we haven't seen like one exact use case nailed yet. >> Um and the approach that we take from the builder point of view is we want it to be again Lego block driven. So we have we will always go by that. The other one is we're looking at certain verticals that uh we can really attach to, right? Um and that's where we see more verticalization happening within

the product level. So when I what I mean by that is if it's like RWA is like there's certain data sources that they want to attack like we can plug that in and then we can make the DEX a lot better. >> Oh yeah, one thing I want to talk about is also DevX like you know there companies like Legion and um Echo um they have to integrate these KYC services or access verification services offchain. Imagine they can just plug in uh Newton and they don't need to keep that uh PII data. I mean PI data is not stored by them but still like a a token of that correct their database and then we can save a lot of work for developers to go from zero to one a lot quicker too. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, uh we're really take packing packing from the builder level, but obviously um when it comes to RB and stable coins like ST security is so like top of mind and and that's where like when it comes to onchain execution, it needs to be evaluated through policy. So, um yeah, I can go into detail details on the tech tech too, but it's pretty >> our event uh you know, coming to a close here. We have a event tomorrow. >> Yeah. >> At the magic office. It's our third event there. um you know why why is it so important for for us to be bringing this traditional finance community into some of the DeFi Ethereum kind of like OG type of community this kind of coallescence mean to you personally as

well as the broader magic team >> again I think it's all about like relationships and also you know gathering everyone that's aligned on the vision and obviously we see right now people still call it onchain finance but the future is it [snorts] should just be called Bets, right? And um and then I think the people that we are bringing in together, we all care about um securing the future together. >> Yes. >> Right. And the partners that we have, I'm really excited to be on another panel with you guys. >> Yeah, it should be fun. >> It has be fun. Uh but yeah, it really starts with the movement and I think um yeah, we're definitely like creating that and part of that and um I think it's always about like accelerating and before it was more about all right, we'll build it and they will come,

right? Now, I think they've already come, but like how do we make it even faster? How do we initial adoption faster? >> Yeah. >> So, that's really the goal. And um tomorrow's event, I'm really excited about it. A lot of participants that have signed up thanks to you guys, too. So, >> it should be a big one. >> Should be a lot of fun. >> Guys, if you're watching this, we have we're hosting happy hour tomorrow, Wednesday, at 5:00 pm to 10 p.m. >> That's right. >> Panel start at 6:30. >> Yep. >> We'll have drinks. >> 10 minutes with some square jello shots. What's new there? >> 10 10 minutes from smartphone. Easy [laughter] walk >> and just you guys have been such in great event partners. You and the whole magic team I think I mean shout out to Steve >> behind the scenes Alexelle Chloe

>> Michelle Chloe I mean all have been such an incredible team to work with and helped set up and coordinate. You know we've obviously been busy setting up a lot of the uh the smart con related live streaming things. Your team has really led the charge when it comes to events and and you know I I I really appreciate you guys being great partners. >> Thanks a lot. I mean, likewise, it's all possible because you guys are working with us on this. >> I appreciate it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Jay, >> thank you so much for big day here for you. Two days. >> I'm sure you've got some RWA people that you need to meet. Some suits. >> I need you to go out there and be the most institutional version of Jay. All right.

>> All right. [laughter] Go change. >> All right. All right, Jay. Thank you, buddy. >> Thanks, Jack. Yeah. Pleasure, brother. >> All righty, guys. That gets us kicked off. >> We're kicked off. We are live. >> That gets us kicked off >> and we are uh rolling. So, next up we've got Adrian from Tron. I believe he is >> the director at the DSA. >> Uh talk to him about digital sovereignty and inclusion. Adrian, >> come on up. Come on up. >> That chair is yours. Welcome to the program. >> Welcome to the show. Thank you.

>> Uh I I'm digging your suit. >> Appreciate it. >> It's very It's It's very uh smart cony of you. What's your first impression? Give us your first impression of SmartCon of New York right now. How's the vibes? How's the energy? >> It's amazing. I love it. I love what they've done with the space too as far as like you know how hard it is to find big spaces like this in your city and you can put on a conference like this going the multiple floors up. Love it. Love it. Fantastic. >> It's awesome. >> Yeah. >> What uh what's your your prerogative here would you say you know when when you're coming here and you're meeting some uh people builders founders from both sides right we obviously have approached things from the crypto and the digital asset side but there's also the Wall Street side. Uh Jay just before

you said look these are no longer DeFi trad these are just finance. Yeah. >> So when you when you come to an event like this and you kind of see these worlds collide what what is your goal and what are you trying to accomplish? >> Honestly I think the the there's so much we can learn from each other right I mean look we're we're going we're converging right the the traditional finance world and then crypto firms. There's no doubt about it. There's so much both sides can learn from each other. And if I could just offer one message, it would be let's stop. Particularly to the Trafi guys, I'm sorry but it's not something I've [laughter] been said to their faces previously. But look, man, if you're if you're in Trafi, just stop playing defense. Look, it's time for all of us to work together. We

can compete on compliance. We can compete on uh you know, profit margin is fine, but let's just stop being a stick in the mud. stop trying to prevent crypto from from up, you know, offering public uh products and services. That'll be great for the people. >> Yeah. >> And last thing I say, it's just use this as opportunity, man, to up your own game. Every single person who's got a bank account freaking hates their own bank. I don't know a single person who goes, "Oh, I love my bank so much because they're so fast. Their customer service." No, man. Not at all. So, use as an opportunity, you know, up your game, listen to your customers, faster payments, global settlement, right? I mean, lower fees, just up your game, man. It's a Yeah,

>> it's really a no-brainer. >> Adrian, tell us a bit about about the DSA. What What do you guys do? >> Um, you know, what is your role and uh you know, you know, what are some of the core objectives? >> So, I founded DSA last fall. We're a nonprofit really focused on education and advocacy on the crypto space. And it just occurred to me that you had so many people doing good work in the space, large organizations uh based in DC, but what we really needed at the time was someone smaller and nimble that could really get to Capitol Hill and help um just help make sure that they were getting real information, factual information, so that they can make better policy decisions, right? cut

through a lot of that red tape, cut through a lot of the legal nonsense and BS that was sort of gumming up the works. And so that's what we strove to create. Uh, and I'm really happy to say that we've got a lot of support from the industry. Ton of people have come and, you know, offered us everything from uh, financial contributions to educational resources to personnel inviting us to speak all over the place. So, it's been a really warm welcome from the community. So, I'm really grateful for that. And, uh, I think we've done some pretty good work as well. We play very well in the sandbox with everybody.

>> Well, you certain you certainly have. I mean, you you guys helped shape GPS, which was a landmark crypto regulation. Um, you know, we see the administration talking about it. We see all of the stable coin issuing companies talk about all the infrastructure companies talking about coming up. We're very close to a market structure bill. >> That was what I was going to ask. If we get a market close is the word, but I'm I'm bullish on >> Well, maybe something boys. >> For sure. >> He's a little worried about [laughter] something, brother. I guess >> maybe you could give us a status update on clarity and where are we? Are we close? Are we not so close? What's the what are the roadblocks uh to get this thing done?

>> So here's the good news, right? I think everybody in the industry by and large is somewhere between neutral or pessimistic right? >> I'm actually pretty The good news is I'm optimistic. The good news is >> the good news is I'm really bullish that we're going to get clarity done next year, Q1, Q2, not this year. But the reason why I'm really bullish is I can tell you for a fact, I know for a fact that there are legislators on both sides working together, bipartisan, across the aisle to come up with uh responsible and ethical policy on clarity. They're talking to each other. Dems know the Republicans issues, Republicans know the Dems's issues, and they are really working in good faith.

>> Could you just just pigeon hole what the issues are like on either side? Just real concise. What is the Democrat's issue? What's the Republican issue? So I I falls along party lines and this is a gross oversimplification of it. Yeah. But in in the interest of time, it's >> I think the Dems are always pushing for more uh consumer protection, right? Not it's a good thing, right? We all want that. >> There's a lot of, you know, Fugazi at times. >> Exactly. Exactly. And the Republicans are kind of more about speed and choice. A little bit more on that libertarian side, right? They see that there's a force for good.

>> So we got to meet in the middle, right? Both there's there's And we forget about the Elizabeth Warren and I don't want to name names, but like let's let's put them aside, right? Let's just talk about the people who are really acting in good faith here. >> Yeah. >> Uh we just have to find that common ground in the middle, address everyone's concerns, and that's really what DSA was. That's how we were effective with Genius. Everybody was working on it. Props to, you know, the uh digital chamber, blockchain associate, everybody did an tremendous job on it. DSA, we were able to get into certain tactical logist uh legislators offices and uh just kind of focus on a few key people >> and help them get across the finish line.

>> Wow. >> Incredible. >> So So you're optimistic in the sense of that those this market structure bill and clarity act, you know, is within a a shorter period of time than most would expect. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't Yes. It's it's hard to say like actual time frame, but just generally speaking, >> I don't want to make promises on those specific >> because I know Brian Armstrong's been up there working at it hard. He's been, you know, doing his video selfies about it. >> I know that that they want to get it done, but I just don't know. Is it the government shutdown that's the whole thing? >> That's big. That's a big part of it. I mean, it's like watching a tennis match. It's just like the things going back and forth, back and forth, and like >> and you know, one day on one day you

wake up, you're like, "Okay, we got this. We're going for it." And something happens. You see it on X and then boom, all momentum stopped. But like I said earlier, the you put all that aside, the people who are really on in charge of this, they're working on it. Yeah. >> They're working on as we speak. >> Okay. And and which types of projects do you think will be or like companies that let's say will be the most rewarded if this passes quickly or you know when this passes is there a certain company that's been squeezed or restricted or a certain sector that has not been able to flourish? talk to us about like what the ramifications of this will be for certain sectors.

>> One word, innovation. >> Okay. >> It's the innovators that have been crushed by this, right? Because how can you play a game if you don't know the rules right? >> Right. So, everyone is fleeing you. And not only that, not only do you not know the rules, but if you break a rule you don't even know, you go straight to jail right? >> No $200. You know what I mean? Do not, you know, no warning. Don't pass go. Just straight to jail. >> Yeah. That's not good. >> Right. You're not rolling doubles to get out of That's why it's it's frankly insane to think that the Democrats are advocating for consumer protection now, but the regulation is what is consumer protection. Four years ago, there was no regulatory attempt even being made. So to say that, oh, now we want consumer protection far and beyond the regulation

that we're putting forth. Where was the regulation back then? Where was the consumer protection back then? There was no rules of the road is complete wild west. So putting that aside, um, you guys >> timing leaves to be desired. I'll give you that. Yeah, I mean [laughter] it's really that's what else what else is there to say on that? I mean I let moving beyond the United States, I think you you were also part of the UN General Assembly and and I think that's an important thing to bring up. You know, we we saw industry leaders like Justin Sun from Tron really advocate for the work that you guys were doing. Maybe you could just explain how that has been going. What what was that like when you were speaking to the general assembly and really speaking beyond crypto, it's really about digital sovereignty. Um so

maybe you could just tell us you know what you were doing there and what you were trying to bring to the table to make sure that we emphasize and focus on at a global level. >> Sure. First of all, it was an amazing experience. I you know to to speak to an audience like that of people who are really engaged in this issue and the issue is uh emerging tech blockchain, stable coin, AI as a force for good as an opport an opportunity to uh uplift an entire continent of people who are uh marginalized when it comes to ability to access any type of financial instruments or bank you know ability to access a savings account. Right? So from that perspective it was it was really awesome to have that opportunity uh and and to sit alongside business leaders from

Africa uh NOS's the World Bank uh I mean there's just there's there are so many amazing minds in that room um as far as the importance of the issue for me digital sovereignty is not a tech issue right it's a humanity issue right we as I think it's not a stretch to say and this is the definition of of digital sovereignty. It's about control. It's about choice. So you should have control over your own data and what you choose to do with that data should be up to you without coercion from anybody else.

That's the fundamental thing. Having said that, data doesn't exist in a vacuum either, right? >> You should be willing to share your data so that you can reap the rewards. There's a lot of examples in the medical community, right? Like if I know one thing about myself, that doesn't really help me. But if I'm willing to share that data and pull with society, now doctors and researchers can figure something out about you know illnesses writ large and then come up with uh vaccines or solutions that will be helpful to me. So data in its own doesn't necessarily equal value but the idea is control um it's control and ownership and choice.

>> Yeah. What were some of the broad themes of conversation [snorts] then obviously digital but was there any particular moments or stories that you share that imparted some wisdom or that you could share with our audience? >> Sure. I think from the message I was trying to get across to a lot of the folks there because they're good-hearted people right that you know one person was like let's just give everyone a bank account and let's put in some money in there. It could be in point and let's teach them how to generate yield and what they can do with that. That's great. I love that idea. Except you don't teach them, you don't give them that education, right, on how to do all these things. So, I like to say that financial inclusion without financial literacy is a bridge to nowhere,

>> right? It's access without empowerment. >> So, it's it's along the lines of that parable. I can give you a fish and you can eat today. If I teach you how to fish, now you're set for life, right? So, we really need to double click, double down on that education piece. Not just the broad by the way, here too. Yeah. >> Right. We see adoption rates in stable coin increasing. They're not increasing fast enough. Part of that is education. Part of that is innovation, but a huge part of that is is education. >> Yeah. So, you know, digital sovereignty, crypto makes up a really important piece of that. Who who's advocating against this? Like what what are the issues that that they're trying to force, you know, it kind of seems like a no-brainer, at least from people in our generation who grew up with the internet.

>> Are there push backs of so what? And you know, >> who we fighting here? It sounds like we're fighting Mark Zuckerberg and >> Cambridge Analytica, right? Is like where a lot of these guys have kind of taken our data, done what they wanted to and not passed on the rewards that you're talking about >> 100%. And so like we have to find that common ground. Who are we fighting if if we want to use that term? Yes, it's it's big tech companies that exist on, you know, using AI to hoover up all this huge amount of data and then do whatever they want with it. there has to be some uh way that people it's my data and I give it to you I should be able to monetize that in some way right so those are the two opposing views it's it's my

data I should be paid for it >> and the other side it's it's we need your data so we can actually generate product again it's like Republicans and Dems the truth is somewhere in the middle yeah and we got to try and find how to get people >> what does success look like here right like is it a material impact fact that people are going to realize that they now have custody over their data. What are they going to be able to do with it? Generally, we're looking three to five years, right? And we're looking back and we're saying, "Okay, yeah, that was a success." How would how would you know how would it look different?

>> I think it's got to be regulation that protects choice. >> Okay. Agency, right? Right now, too much of our data is just stripped away without we don't even know it. Yeah. >> Right. And we've learned about it after the fact. Again, I'm not against uh big tech companies taking our data and doing something amazing for with it that we all love and use, right? I mean, chatbt, you name it. Great innov Well, arguable whether that's going to be a great innovate depends on on the outcome on uh on jobs. But at any rate, I think the option it has to be about choice. It's got to be the agency, right?

>> We have to know when our when our data is being taken. So, there have to be ways to fortress that data for ourselves. We got to be able to protect it. What what are some of the companies that that you've been working with more on the on the enterprise side rather than the government and the regulatory side that have helped enforce this vision and have really provided the tools and the infrastructure that you're now taking into the global and the United States uh you know decision law makers? Um what are what are some of the companies that are helping to power that that movement? >> Well, you you mentioned Justin Sun earlier. Tron has been a huge uh supporter and and they've really helped our mission a lot. One, I mean, they're huge in Africa. I mean, they were, I think, one of the largest blockchains

that underwrites >> Yeah. >> majority of those stable coin transactions cryptocurrency transactions. So, they're they have a familiarity with that part of the world. Um, here in the US, I think there's still over 50% of of stable coin transactions are going on Toronto's blockchain. uh they understand the importance of uh the right regulation, making sure that legislators are informed so that they can write the right policy, right? And so their their team has been incredibly helpful. They have I know that they have some they have an initiative called T3FCU, which is that financial crime unit. Yeah.

>> Uh where it's it's them, it's Tron, Tether, and TRM Labs working with law enforcement agency to identify bad actors, freeze assets, uh and ultimately refund them back to victims. So there's that that that recompense for the victims which is amazing. >> Yeah. Adrian, when you're looking at the uh kind of landscape of digital assets as it is today, we've we're really in this kind of maturation phase, right? We're in this phase where we're at SmartCon, S&P Global Ratings Agency's here, BlackRock is here, folks like yourselves, the DSA is here. It's it's gone out of the this cyberpunk kind of like movement into this larger financial primitive. And you know, putting the tech aside, it's very finance oriented

here at SmartCon. You know, when you're looking at the the the kind of phase that that you know, blockchain is in, you know, what would you analogize it to in the broader internet or tech boom, right? Like where where are we in, you know, in the 2000s or in the 2010s? you know what what can you kind of analogize it to and then how can we use that inference to kind of like allude to what's coming next. >> I actually I think crypto is in a really good space right now. Um it's not I think it doesn't suffer from the problems that AI has right now where there's just so much overvaluation.

crypto did. By the way, there was a time where people were just throwing stupid money at crypto because they didn't understand it, but they thought it was the next big thing maybe like 10 years ago before before the previous administration. The good news is I don't think we're going to have to deal with any of that. So, people are being very smart about how they offer finance and offer investment to new innovators and new creators. Creators, innovators are taking that under consideration, say, "Okay, I'm going to bring something out to market. It can't just be scribbled on the back of a napkin. I have this great idea, but I need to figure out a way to execute, right? And there's so many resources at conferences like that like like this where we can help with with those kind of issues. So, whatever your

need is, you come to these and you can get connected with the people that can help you out. >> Yeah, >> I think crypto is in a great space. I think now we've got if the regulation passes the way we think, that's like the final piece of the puzzle. First there's a need. Then crypto came in and filled that need. Then there was adoption. Then there was regulatory catchup which was a painful past that we just went through. And now it's going to be it's like lights out. It's innovation, mass adoption. I mean the future is bright. >> Do you have any stories of like DC lawmakers, regulators? Is there any like any like behind closed doors things that is just like you know piqu your interest? kind of, you know, kind of makes you think twice about like, you know, what's going on? Is there anything

you can share about, you know, a particular personality or anything that anything that happened that was a little bit quirky that maybe we don't we don't really uh get to see from our perspective? >> I [clears throat] had a a friend told me, you know, when when I she knew I was moving to DC and I was like, "Yeah, you know, I'm going to go make friends and like try to like ingratiate myself into society and and make friends with lawmakers and blah blah." I kept using the word friends and she goes, "You want a friend? Get a dog." >> Yeah. [laughter] >> In DC, it's it's watch your step. Yeah. >> Right. And then the other one I really liked was uh Demos will stab you in the back. Republicans will stab you in the front. But either way, right? I mean, >> you're getting stabbed.

>> You're getting stabbed. So, I mean, like the the truth is it's it's not that far off, man. It's like it's really it's really interesting. It's really exciting. Politics is a is a totally different animal, but you got to have the stomach for it. It's I could tell you a lot of stories, but I don't want to incriminate. >> Yeah. >> Maybe after clarity passes. >> Yeah. Off there. >> You buy me a drink. I got you. >> All right. We will. >> Thanks for your time, man. >> Of course, man. Pleasure. >> Appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. You, too. >> Keep it up. >> All right.

Which way are you getting stabbed, Rob? You're getting stabbed in the front or the back, bud. Pick your poison, >> buddy. I'm holding the knife. Let's get rolling. Um, >> I think we're gonna have our friend Jackie come up for her grand entrance. >> Come on over >> into the into the show. She'll be uh she'll be she'll be vibing with us for a bit until she uh >> I want to make it perfectly clear, perfectly clear to everyone who's listening, everyone who's watching, let's be perfectly clear, Talking Tokens is as much a co-host of our event on Wednesday as anyone else. You guys, >> how they left off the poster and the tweet? I don't know.

>> Yeah, [laughter] getting fired. >> We're trying to guys. >> Yeah, [laughter] ourselves apparently. Apparently not. >> Look, there's a lot of people behind the scenes. We love them all, but you know, there's some things that slip through the cracks. So, >> very much looking forward to our event [laughter] tomorrow. A lot of fun. Significantly oversubscribed. >> Yeah. >> Who's who's doing the door? Andy. >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Okay. [laughter] >> So, what have you been up to? You've been working. You've been doing box.

>> It's been working. >> Podcast. >> Yeah. With security. >> It's good. So, yeah, the talking tokenization. Uh, it's kind of like a spin-off within the talking token show. Um, it's obviously about tokenization. you know, we had uh feedback from Etherealize on. We've had Carlos from Securitize, obviously. Uh we have a lot of other big names coming on. Um and yeah, I think, you know, like tokenization is just something that everyone wants to talk about right now. It's like something that everyone has questions about and so it's like why don't we just bring these people on and explain it in their own terms? And it's funny because like I always ask like how would you define tokenization? and everyone has like their own varied answer for it, whereas like it should just be one standard definition, but it's such like a a new topic that of

course there's different answers, right? Um, and they all kind of circle back to the same theme, but that's really the takeaway there. >> For a long time, the the best and brightest in our industry, that's all they do is argue about definitions on Twitter and go back >> and they still keep it too technical. >> That's why they need podcasts to uh to hear everyone's opinion and come up to some consensus. >> Exactly. How have you been able to kind of re like reorganize and and optimize your content stack? Like why tokenization? Why crypto in America? Why did you choose these topics? Yeah. >> Um and and maybe give us an idea of what could be coming next.

>> Yeah. No, that's a good question. And then like with token relations, which is the business side of things, I mean, I came on your show in the spring summer. >> You missed it. I think you were there. [laughter] >> It was just you and uh you and Andy. Yeah. >> Unfortunately. Fortunately, you're lucky. >> She's trying to corner me in club and cat and I was like, >> "Oh my god, we are not doing this." >> All right. So, come on. Please. >> You want to tell the story? >> I was totally fine. [laughter] >> I was like, there's a story. Who's going to tell it? Let's see if we can which story.

>> We were just at a nice conference and Andy was having a great time. That's >> a good time. That's what's new. I'm always having a great time. Yeah, >> you guys know me, [laughter] >> dude. So, what's your take? >> What was the question? >> What's your take on Blockwork's uh laying off a bunch of their newsroom? >> Yeah, that's tough cuz I worked there. That was actually my first uh job in crypto. I was a crypto reporter there. I was the third hire, me and three other people. So, you could be like third, fourth, or fifth, honestly, depending on how you think about it. Um, but at the time, it was like a very new newsroom.

Uh, it was very scrappy. I always kind of joke that like we were definitely overworked, but like what startup isn't, right? Sure. And I loved it. I'm not saying like anything bad on that front, but um I remember there was a time too when they talked about how they wanted to become the Bloomberg of crypto. Um and you know, sometimes that gets you like laughed out of the room, especially in the crypto space. You guys know like the rollup wants to be the like ex of crypto whatever right? >> Um and I remember them saying that and it resonated with me. This was like back in 2022, probably 2021.

>> Yeah. >> Uh and essentially they said, "We're going to go in on research. We're going to go in on news and it's going to make sense." >> Yeah. >> Um and then, you know, they did. And with Bloomberg, I also worked there and I know that the terminals make most of the money, right? >> The newsroom makes no money is what I don't know the exact revenue, but it's probably like scraps compared to like the terminal, the data, etc. But they still kept the newsroom alive. And my take on this is that you should keep the newsroom because it's your brand. Yeah, >> it's your reputation. It's your, you know, everything on that line. Like Bloomberg Terminals wouldn't be as like cool and popular in my opinion if they didn't have the reputable newsroom that's backing it. And they have 1,200 journalists. I don't think Block Works

has like >> I don't know, maybe 10. I don't know. Yeah. Well, [laughter] zero now. Thank you. >> Um, but listen, I mean, I worked at Blockworks in the early days. Me and Jason, uh, the co-founders there are very smart guys. They they know what they're doing for sure. And I think it probably just came down to numbers and maybe not wanting to manage so many heads, which is >> reasonable. >> Sure. >> But it's tough. It's a tough because I mean it's it's not just stats. It's not just numbers. It's people's >> people's, you know, livelihood.

>> It's also their reputation to Jack's point. It is their brand identity. It's how everyone else aside from their customers knows them. Even though enterprises and uh you know institutions may buy these data packages and make up most of their revenue base, the way most people come to terms and come to know block works is through their media through their media. >> Well, I mean we've talked about it, right? We talked about how it was like top offunnel events and uh news and podcast into this data into whatever it is and I mean for some reason but top of funnel just wasn't doing it.

>> Are they keeping their podcast? >> Yeah. Yeah. But then like Jack from Lightseed got laid off. Sorry. >> So I was like, who's hosting Lightseed? Is it just Myrr? I don't know. It's weird. >> Hey, less competition for us, right guys? [laughter] >> So Jack, what was what was your what was your background? [laughter] >> Well, I'm just curious. What was your background before Bloomberg? Like Andy and I got into media. >> You mean college? I mean, who do you think I am?

>> For journalism, like more more traditional journalism, I guess, is where what I'm getting at is like, >> you know, Andy and I got into media through podcasting. And so, it was very much >> it wasn't like the typical like we've got to go like rub like get into rooms and try to get like a tidbit of information to like go write a story, which is like what how I think about journalism >> typically. It was very much like people were willing to come on the show and tell us everything that they knew because the space was so young and early that we were all growing the pie together. Yeah.

>> We never had to fight for information, you know, >> but I get the sense that maybe you and your partners have a little bit more traditional journalism experience. Do you am I getting the wrong impression? Just kind of fill me in on like what your background is and how you you know how you grew from there. >> Yeah. No, that's a good question. And I think um when I was at Bloomberg and S&P uh it was a very traditional journalist job. I covered energy markets and oil trading. Um and it was the complete opposite of what you just talked about. Like we had a set list of probably like 10 people that would talk on record and the rest were all on background. Nobody wanted to talk publicly. Um and whereas like with crypto everyone's willing to talk unless you know they're doing something illegal then they're like you

know sword in the [ __ ] conversation. Am I allowed to curse? Doesn't matter. It's the rule. for I think trust me [laughter] Jackie Jackie cares I'm not >> car sometimes okay I'm from New York whatever yeah y'all y >> but for me I think like the the journalist side of everything really kind of drives into the work that I do and I think that's how I operate the business the podcast everything because it's like your personal brand as you guys know is kind of who you are and it's an integrity thing and it also makes up like everything about um what you represent. And so like people trust you for what you've built. And so I

think from my journalistic background like yeah, I'm not fully a journalist anymore, but like I still operate in that mindset where like I'm not going to say this is the first thing or the best thing ever unless I know for a fact that it is. And you can't know for a fact that anything's the best. So forget that. But you know what I mean? Like that's kind of how I think about things. >> And I Andy and I have talked about this. We've got a very unique vantage point on the industry because we're not so locked in and zoned in on ZK or like one particular area of the industry that we can kind of like we can draw connections between several facets of the industry and you mentioned tokenization crypto in America.

>> That was the original question was how are you choosing these topics? Sure. >> And maybe just trace through some through lines, right? like what are some of the higher level trends that you're seeing that you think are going to persist through the next coming months and years? >> Yeah, so on the token relations front, I think the big trends that we're seeing is uh stable coin adoption, tokenization, rwas, uh BTC, that's a incoming like reoccurring trend where people want to earn yield on their Bitcoin. They don't want just like this asset. They want more. You know, everyone wants more in the space. Um and then on crypto in America's front, it's just a lot of conversations about, you know, market structure, genius, clarity, um bringing back American founders to

the US. I think a lot of people are traumatized and like I'm not going to name any specific names, but there's a number of companies that were like, "We are not an American company." And now they're like, "We're an American [laughter] company." >> Literally, can they blame you? you know, like when everyone's getting sued and like you just want to like avoid eye contact with the SEC, of course you're not going to say you're American even though you have, you know, an American passport and you pay taxes here and everything else. >> There's a disincentive and now there's an incentive to do business in America. >> Yeah. And I think, you know, for crypto in America, it's like educating the public in a way that's like meeting everyone where they're at. So like we've got policy makers in DC who listen to it and then we got, you know, crypto

people. It's like how do you kind of make a conversation like you guys know >> for both of them, right? Yeah. Oh, very cool. So, you're kind of brid making a you're building a bridge between two audiences, right? So, you know, we we've had conversations with, you know, we're going Wall Street, we're going digital assets. It's been very technological, but then also very financial. >> Yeah. Just make bridging that gap. >> Bridging that gap. And now bridging that gap between policy makers and crypto founders. >> Yeah. >> What is it like working with uh Eleanor? She's like crushing Twitter. Like I just I >> I love whenever I take breaks on Twitter, I'm like, damn, this girl is just working. Her engagement is just unreal. Like, how does one get 50K likes or views on every single tweet?

>> She's got a loyal following. Um, I've definitely gained a few of her followers, so shout out to them. Love you guys, too. But, I mean, she works really hard. Like, we were at a dinner last night, uh, a media dinner, and someone did ask her like, "How do you get so many scoops?" And she's like, "I just, you know, I'm well connected." Yeah. >> You know, I I mean, you guys get that, too. People come on the show. You get amazing guests. >> It's a product of like the fact that people like you and they want to share information with you. Um, and I think she said a really good job of it. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And when you say it's that that network that she has or is there some uh is is it the way she packages the information that she gets, right? Because you know

we have people come on the show. You're right. They give us, you know, information. Um, but it seems like maybe it doesn't extend because it's not as scoopy, right? It's not as exclusive or it's not packaged that way. >> Maybe. But she's also honed in on such a specific niche. Like she is the person for policy DC things, anything on that front. I think if she tweeted something about like ZK, like we were talking about people like what the >> would not Yeah. >> And she's like, you know, smart across a bunch of different topics, but like when you specialize in something, you become known as that person for that.

>> Correct. Correct. >> So, >> okay, guys, we have um our our next guest here. Um Jackie is gonna vibe with us if she wants to stay and do a couple interviews. >> We'll squeeze a bit. >> Do we have another microphone here? No, but we can just do uh two on one. >> Okay. >> I I think it should be all right. >> All right. Sure. >> Let's just take a quick standby. Um and we'll be back in just a sec and we will be getting our next uh guest up. So, quick break, guys, and we'll be right back. Please give us the rolling rolling.

[laughter] >> Help the boy out, Leo. Hey,

hey, hey. Heat. Heat.

What's going on Dan. >> All good. How you guys doing? >> Hey everyone, I'm Andy. Uh, and we are here today with Dan Silverman on the next era of digital infrastructure. He is at balcony. >> Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm actually Jacine Melanick. I'm not Andy. [laughter] Andy took a step out, but it's going to be me and Robbie, right? >> We're going to have some fun. Dan, welcome to the show. How you doing? How's your SmartCon going? >> Good. Yeah, it's interesting so far. Good event. Uh, a lot of people here, good panels. So, yeah, just happy to be here. How about you guys?

>> Yeah. Yeah, same here. We're having fun. >> Yeah, it's a great crowd. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When worlds collide out here, Wall Street, finance, uh, and digital assets. Um, I mean, Dan, tell us about Balcony. I think, uh, you know, our audience is is really, really curious. Um, how are things going? How's it building? >> Yeah, things are going really well right now. So what Balcony does is we're building a foundation for real estate tokenization by bringing land records and other legal instruments that describe real estate at the asset level on chain by working with governments that currently facilitate that process.

So essentially building a better more digital record keeping system to authenticate and validate ownership history so that other real estate companies can build on top of it. kind of opening the door for people to interact with a broader tokenized economy so that they could fractionalize the properties, collateralize them, etc. >> Fractionalize the properties as in like you, me and him can all own a house together. >> Um, essentially, I mean, we personally are not in the business of fractionalization. We will enable it.

Um, but when you fractionalize a property, you're democratizing access to it. So, you could essentially invest any denomination of money into the property. Um, one of the biggest issues with um, real estate today is one, uh, it's hard to get started because it's very capital intensive. And two, if you're a real estate owner, it's highly eiquid. So fractionalization solves both of those issues because it allows anyone to invest any amount. You can invest $1,000 and get your proportionate share of the property and your proportionate share of the net operating income. And then for a real estate owner, it allows them to have better liquidity because you don't have to sell the whole property feed simple. You could sell shares of it.

>> And what what kind of property rights do I have as a fractional owner of a house? Can I rent out a single room of the house and like >> Airbnb? Yeah. >> Right. So there would still need to be a managing member of the property. So um that that would be written into the smart uh contract of who governs the the property. But typically if you're a small investor, you wouldn't have any rights over that. And you may have some kind of governance over like voting on things like that, but there would still be a, you know, someone in charge. >> And when it comes to kind of like the adoption of these things, are you having conversations mainly with like uh conglomerates that buy a lot of properties like Zillow? What is kind of the category that you're targeting here?

>> So, us personally, our lane is bringing the the government recordeping process on chain. So, we're we're working with go uh governments, local, state, and county governments. Um, for example, we're working with Bergen County, New Jersey, the largest county in the state of New Jersey to migrate all of their deed processing on chain. It's the largest blockchain deed initiative in US history. So the goal there is to create this permanent immutable chain of title that's verifiable can't be altered in any way and uh by tokenizing the actual deed records they can't be ripped off of fabricated uh a big issue deed fraud is actually on the rise we think largely because of the rise in generative AI

it's never been easier to spin up fraudulent documents and kind of tell a fake story with supporting documentation but when you tokenize the deed and you have that provenence layer link linking it directly to the county makes it much more difficult for fraudsters to pull that off. >> Yeah, I think blockchains generally are a solution for some of the uh fraudulent generative uh AI. Mark Andre talks about this kind of a stamp of authentication. >> Yeah. Like we're we're entering a world where it'll be impossible to tell what's real or fake if not for blockchain. Blockchain helps you authenticate that.

>> Yep. Yep. Uh for a long time blockchains were a solution in search of a problem. AI came along, solved a lot of things, but also presented some problems. Dan, I've been burning to ask someone about this figure heliloc thing that's on the rise. I think it's number 13 on Coin Market Cap now. It's got a market cap upwards of 13 billion. It came out of absolutely nowhere. I'm extremely curious about it. I know helocks, obviously, home equity, credit lines, like you know, there's there's things at play here in the traditional world, but they're getting tokenized. Could could you just give us and our audience kind of like a zero to one on what this thing is? Why has it had such a meteoric rise all of a sudden?

>> So, um I think what Figure is doing is incredible and I think it'll enable more liquidity for home buyers. Um so, essentially like I don't know too much. I'm not an expert about what what they're doing, but I've I have seen, like you said, that rise and um I think what they're trying to accomplish is by pulling liquidity together and giving people an alternative than traditional banks and finance finance systems that are cumbersome when um actually giving a loan. And I think where it leads is the ability to uh plug in DeFi and collateralize your assets more efficiently and more quickly. So, you know, one one of the big things that like needs to happen is there and why we're focused on the real world process

is because to close on an asset, there's a legal process to do so. You can't just uh liquidate property and and take ownership or take possession over it the way you would like liquidate a bitcoin that you're collaterizing. So by bringing the governments on board and creating that process, you could code into smart contract to follow the actual legal process. And that way we can open up billions of dollars of liquidity to home buyers that are looking for alternatives than the traditional banking system for whatever reason. They may not qualify or they may, you know, have some past uh past history that comes back to bite them, but this opens them up to a whole new world of of finan financing options.

>> Okay. So my understanding is that Balcony is focused on a little bit a piece of the workflow that happens a little bit earlier. It's actually the tokenization of the asset itself of the deed, not not so much the collateralization and the and the extension of a loan on that deed. >> Yeah. What we're we're hoping by bringing the legal process on chain is we'll enable companies like Figure and and other like real estate fractionalization companies to build on top of what we're doing because it gives an authoritative layer, a real source of truth because it's being authoritated by the government >> and they're the ultimate arbiter of land records currently.

>> Yeah. Is it based solely in America or is there like regional differences that you're focusing on as well? >> We're very focused on America right now. Um eventually we will scale beyond the United States. Uh we're just trying to be very niche and and focused right now. But um I do think when we get beyond the United States, we'll find their systems are in more disarray than in the US. So um for an example, early on we spent some time in Puerto Rico. Um you know, it's becoming kind of like a crypto hub. So >> you got that in the US? >> Sort of, but not really.

>> No question. Um, [laughter] and their their big issue is like that hurricane that happened in 2019, a lot of their records are still paper. It wiped away all of their land records. So, there's all these title disputes that happen all over the place now. So, we're going to find that as we enter other countries that like they're still large based on paper or primitive systems that if there's any type of like disaster, natural disaster or a hack, it can completely [ __ ] them. Um, so we'll, you know, eventually we will scale beyond the US and I think we'll actually be able to improve their systems a lot better than than here.

>> Yeah. Uh, you're co-CEO, but we've also got you pegged as the chief visionary officer at Balcony. What is that? >> What is the vision for for Yeah. What is the vision of tokenized real estate? >> So, um, my you know, I I started the company with a couple guys. as the other co- uh CEO is more the like business lead and putting the team together and everything and it's really my vision that we built the company off of and the world I see is like everything is moving towards tokenization real estate will all financial and legal instruments will move on chain and the important thing for me was to create that base that foundation to bring the legal process to enable all the other real estate tokenization companies which we know are coming to to build on top of so one of

my inspirations for starting And to to back up a second, I come from a real estate development family. So I grew up, you know, at 15 years old. My dad had me at construction sites, kind of learning the business, and um got into crypto in 2017, started buying Bitcoin, more of like a long-term mindset because I come from a real estate family. Just bought it to hold and um started learning about the underlying technology and realized it could be used to supplement a lot of the cracks and problems in real estate because it's very archaic. It runs on systems that were built before I was born. Runs on cobalt gets hit with ransomware attacks and you know it's just a disaster. All these disperate data sources that don't speak to one another. There's no interoperability.

And I realized blockchain could solve a lot of those solutions. And the big thing like the aha moment for me was that the deed to your home is just a piece of paper that represents your ownership of your most valuable asset and somebody could just rip it off. There's no like way to provably like authenticate that piece of paper. But if you tokenize it and put it on a distributed ledger, you have a real way to track that chain of title. And that was kind of the the vision that led me to leaving real estate, which I had a very straight line path to success, continuing doing what I was doing in real estate, but I felt that this was an opportunity that the world was ready for and, you know, wanted to jump in to kind of set the groundwork to enable all the

things I'm talking about. >> It makes me think about my social security card and my birth certificate. I've never seen my birth certificate, >> so I don't even know where that is. But my social security card, I've seen and I don't really know where it is. Right. And so to your point about the deed, it's like these are important documents that why don't we have a better, more secure place for them than putting it in like a PO box at the bank. >> 100%. That's exactly like what we're doing with deed records applies to all the stuff you're talking about could apply to like diplomas for example from college. Like >> I don't know where that is either. >> Me [laughter] neither. I didn't go to college. You know, >> all all these records that authenticate like ownership or or like any type of accolade from your life should be

tokenized and live on chain and that way they can't get lost. They could be provably authenticated. And I think that's the direction the world's moving. >> You said you have a construction family, a real estate family, etc. Or you worked in construction. Your family is very real estate driven >> in development. >> Yeah. Yeah. What What do they think about this? >> Do they get it? >> No. [laughter] So at the time when I came up with this idea, it was like 2020 and um it was actually right when I learned about NFTTS because that was like aha moment. I realized that NFTTS were the proper way to tokenize real estate because real estate itself is nonfgeible. Meaning that every deal is unique based on the different attributes that make it unique. And so I sent my dad this whole

long-winded email being like this is the future of how real estate's going to trade. Everything's going to get tokenized and blah blah blah. And um he responded with one line. He said, "Son, I think you should stick to your day job." So he he thought I was crazy. Um fast forward several months later, um a lot of the concepts I was talking about were kind of like proven. You know, there was that big NFT kind of bubble, but I was always saying to him was that like the technology that will come out of that bubble will be used to to authenticate real estate. So um after like, you know, I did pretty well in that cycle. This is like 2021. when I was early with uh Crypto Punks, which is like kind of the original NFT. So, I was buying them for like two Ethereum at the

time. They ended up, you know, selling some for like over 200 E and I did. >> All right. >> I don't know if you saw a >> little tough, but anyway, like what when happened, you know, my dad called me up and he was like, "Honestly, I may never understand what you're talking about, but clearly you do and you were right about this. then if everybody saw it the same way as you, there wouldn't be an opportunity for you. And he said similar to when he started developing real estate in Hoboken, Hoboken was a bad area back then. And he just had a vision that people are going to get priced out of Manhattan and will come across the river in New Jersey into Hoboken and New Jersey City specifically. And he said if if he everyone saw the same thing as him, he they would have bought the

properties for him. And said similar thing like you have this vision and you got to run with it. So he kind of did a 180. still doesn't fully get it, but he's given it the his blessing. >> Yeah. >> Both my parents from New Jersey, my mom from Paripity, my dad in Atlantic City. How are you going to turn this uh this partnership with Bergen County into one that's scalable, scaled to multiple counties cities states? >> Yeah. So, we're trying to create a standard that other counties and other states can replicate. So, we've already had a ton of outreach from other counties throughout the state of New Jersey after the Bergen County announcement and other counties throughout the entire country. So, we had counties in California, Texas, Florida, uh, Pennsylvania, all reach out. We're also working in Wyoming, which is the polar opposite in New

Jersey, but they lead the nation in blockchain adoption. So, we figure if we could find a solution that works in both Wyoming and New Jersey. It's something that's replic um replicatable and scalable. And we started working with organizations like Priya, which is a property records industry association. That was huge when it came from moving from paper to digital. So they wrote the standards for all e- file submissions and we want to work with them to write the standards for blockchain based system of record that we can help scale across the country. Um throughout New Jersey, we're also working and speaking to legislators to kind of change policy to um to incorporate tokenized deeds as official records of ownership. And we're working with the blockchain task force

in New Jersey as well to also do the same thing, use Burbank County as a case study to see if we could scale throughout the state and then beyond. >> Very cool. Um you guys recently launched a partnership with Chainlink. We're at SmartCon. Could you just tell us about that partnership? It's the chain link runtime environment. That's something I'm not as familiar with. Maybe you could just describe what that is and and how it helps to enable everything that you've discussed here with the real estate market. >> Yeah, so basically we're partnering with them to bring the data on in a verifiable way. So every time we bring government source data on chain and independent chain like Oracle will act as an independent validator of source provenence and data integrity. So basically the way that you could look at this data and know and not have to trust

Balcony um and and know that what you're looking at is provably authentic, you have the origin, you know it hasn't been tampered with. That's where Chainlink and their Oracle network comes into play. Very cool. >> Has Chain Link done anything like this before? >> Uh I believe so. Yeah. I think like they've they've done it with um like major institutions like Swift and >> Oh, no. I meant on like the real estate side. >> On the real estate side? No, I don't I don't believe so. I could be wrong, but I think I think we're the first. Yeah. >> One of a kind.

>> Yeah, there we go. >> Dan Silverman, thanks so much for coming on, man. It was me. Appreciate it. >> It's a really uh it's a really interesting industry to see the real estate market. It's obviously a huge industry. Bringing it on chain is going to bring another bulk of assets here and ultimately make all of the other parts of the tokenization movement even better. So, >> that's that's the goal. >> Keep up the good work. Thank you, brother. See you again soon. >> Take care, guys. Thank you. >> Thanks. All right, Jackie. Learn a little bit about real estate. >> Do you know where your birth certificate is? >> My birth certificate. >> That's my >> I do. I just hung up my diploma. I've been graduated from college for >> You went to college?

>> I went to college. I got a math and a philosophy degree. I had to get two to make up >> smart >> for this guy. >> Oh, okay. >> That way. >> Did you guys go to college together? We met freshman year at University of Florida >> at UF. Yeah. >> The Gator The Gator Blockchain >> Jackie Sandwich now. [laughter] Yeah, I understand. That would have been weird. >> You're on one today, huh? >> Feeling good. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's good. >> Like once the lights come on, you know. >> Yeah. Are you ready to moderate that panel tomorrow? >> Which one? >> I think you're moderating an RWA panel tomorrow.

>> Three. >> At our event. >> Oh, at our event, too. Yes, that one panel. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think we've only got two panels. >> So, how are you guys doing about the markets today? Where are we at? >> Not looking good from what I saw. My phone keeps giving me alerts of it's like down another percent, down another percent. >> Yikes. >> So yeah, you guys >> 3252, >> you know, a little steadily here and there. >> Wow. >> 3250 on E. >> That ETH chart looks ready to go to zero. >> Are you trader? >> No, unfortunately I'm a holder.

>> Yeah, that's I get the pain. >> Yeah, I don't know, guys. I mean, >> just another day. The thing about media is that like the business is so reflexive that these like if if we go into a slower period then things just slow down so much >> and and it's hard to like cross it's hard to cross that casing. I think we have a bit with the time but like you know >> you really came under here Jack and I had a flood >> 2020 is a bare market. It's not going to be good for the boys. >> Ask him about his birth certificate. >> Where's your birth certificate? >> I don't know. See [laughter] >> how is that?

>> Yeah. I'm actually Canadian. >> Really? >> Yeah. My parents were born there. >> Oh, >> but I was born here. >> Bearish. >> Bearish. I'm a nice guy. I'm a gentleman. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um Yeah. I don't know. I I think about that. I think it was like a Reddit thing or something that showed that guy that kept calling the market tops and bottoms from like I think it was over thousand days and then like 365 days ago. You know that very precise. >> And when I saw that I was like >> I think this guy is crazy, but I also think he's right. Yeah. >> And it was like the top for Bitcoin and ever since then it's been going down.

But if it's true, we only have like a year of this. >> Yeah. I think um this bull market was very different. Well, this bull market was just very different than previous bulls. Like like generally it's just like >> Yeah. >> I don't know. It was just not the same. So you would anticipate that the bare market would also be different. >> Jackie asked if we sold. Did you sell? >> No, I didn't. But it's funny because I had a conversation with someone last week on the show um that it came out today. It's the episode with Chia Wang from Alliance. >> Yeah. uh in the whole episode, the second half of it, we're talking about how he's been like de-risking this whole year and he's been getting FOMO and at the end of the conversation I was like, "Yeah, you know, you're making me like

want to sell like now I have to go sell some stuff." And then >> you say that and then you forget to and now I'm like, "Dang, I should have sold higher." Yeah. So, should have sold, should have bought, whatever. Not financial advice. >> No, I just think it's tragedy. Yeah. >> As long as you have a long term and like a long enough time horizon, it's fine. >> Yeah. I mean, I just really don't sell. I'm just loyal. You're just loyal to the game. You >> go down the risk curve at all. >> Do you own any or anything? >> Uh I have NFTs that have been given to me. I don't really buy NFTs. >> Okay. >> I do have some meme coins, but I really haven't like played that game since like last December or two December when like whiff was a thing, right?

>> I bought Dog with Hat, Popcat. They're all down tremendously, but like they were up at one point and then I did turn them into stables and then I got and I threw them back in. So >> Oh, that's a tough thing to do. Yeah, I'm honest. >> Now you're a community member. >> Yeah. >> A forever bag holder of whip or something. I don't know. >> It'll be on the >> So, what is your like you you hold Bitcoin and Ethereum and like the majors? That's like your main stuff. >> Yeah. I don't >> You don't really trade, right? >> No, I don't date trade. I don't have time nor am I good at it as people listening probably.

>> Yeah. No, you don't do any leverage. Don't do any day trading. Stay away from all that. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think there's anything more that I should be doing than just like buying and holding things that I believe in and respect, >> right? When you buy the silly ones, those shouldn't be long term. >> Yeah. >> So, I just, you know, hold on to those things. >> What's your take on the securitized stuff, the the spec, the token, like >> it's awesome, >> right? That you've been building for so long. >> Yeah. I mean, I think Carlos has been doing it for like seven or eight years. Um, and we've had these conversations in the past and I've asked him because like you know I'm a founder, you're a founder and it's not always easy and there are probably moments where you're like this

is really hard even like on the outside looking in it's like oh of course they have everything so good they have all this money whatever like or they've raised a lot of money. Um but he talked about how for so many years it was just like a grind of all these doors getting shut and the first like uh domino was Black Rockck. Yeah. And then it's kind of and I totally get that with like my own company. It's like um you know we work with a lot of major L1's L2s protocols and it's like almost like people want to work with them as well or be seen alongside them. >> It's like a mental psychological% it is.

Yeah. >> Yeah. And like sure we run a great company but it's and same with security. They run a great business but when they got Black Rockck a bunch of other people were like all right fine you work with Black Rockck we'll work with you guys. >> I'm sure the conversations were a bit more serious than that. >> For sure. For sure. But like, you know, reality of these things sometimes. Um, >> and I think they do really great work. You know, there's other platforms out there that do similar things, but you know, I'm loyal to Secure Ties. They're a friend of the show, friend of the company. Same with you guys. And I think what they're doing is really great. And I think, you know, the IPO market for crypto is really big. Um, but I don't think all of them will win. I'm not

saying that about secure ties, but I think in general, like the IPOs are >> it's going to get a bit crowded. Like >> it already kind of like is getting there and everything. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Are you? >> Yeah. Honestly, I I I don't I'm not I'm not against you on that. It's just kind of But then again, I don't know. It provides this public exposure to the markets that a lot of people are looking for. I'm not sure who's buying like Flora Growth Corp. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Instead of just like buying the ETH ETF. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I mean, there are a few DOTs out there that I've, you know, spoken to and I'm like, "Okay, you guys actually have like a vision, a strategy, etc." Like, I respect that. But then others I'm just like what's the demand for this thing?

>> Yeah. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's for them to figure out. >> Guys, we're going to take a quick break. Uh let's go on standby and we'll be back with our next guest. I think it's going to be Andy from Hyperfi. So, [snorts] see you guys in a few seconds. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Fire.

Heat. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat

up. Heat. Heat. N.

Heat up. Hey,

hey hey. Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat.

Hey, hey hey. Happy uh happy bare market.

>> Happy fair market to you too, Andies. [laughter] >> Here we go again. Here we go again. >> How fast does that happen? >> Yeah. >> I mean, because like Okay, so we knew that the debts were going to run out of like buying power. >> That's right. But like it just came quicker than I think a lot of people thought. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think uh there is there's always an accident that seems to trigger these things every time like in 2022 we had >> you know Luna then FDX and then there is dead bodies start coming out and they're under >> uh selling pressure. So there is a lot of leverage right so crypto is weird in the sense that >> you know in in in in equities we had one great depression.

>> Yeah. >> In crypto we get a great depression every four years >> right? So, so we have like massive credit risk. >> Yeah. >> And in a bull market there is no credit risk, right? All the loans are honored and people pay back their debt or you don't care if they argue and then pay back. >> But uh now you get a bare market and you have all these uh funds which bodies are coming out of the Binance liquidations, right? And the the problem is that there is this DeFi, you know, there are these DeFi vaults in Morpho and elsewhere which are technically DeFi, but they're being managed by people, you know, by these centralized entities which were uh >> technically built and neutral.

>> Yeah. >> But then they had all these shorts on one side and longs on the other side. The longs got liquidated. The shorts didn't get honored because of ADL. >> And now you have, you know, now these guys can't honor their collateral. Yeah. Yeah. >> So apparently they have all these stable coins but those stable coins are now down 30%. So so so there is this you know we have seen this in traditional finance all the time right. So I was there when LIBOR happened. >> I lost my job to Libbor. Yeah. >> Uh so I have too many accidents right and which which I didn't do. I had nothing to do with any of these things. So so I I was there for Leman. I was there for you know >> Libore. I was there for LTCM and you know whole bunch of stuff that you'd

never want to see ever in your life. And in crypto we get that every four years. Yeah. >> Right. Uh so it's market risk and credit risk. But then there is also what in but in FRA 5 because this is a trad because we don't know what the exchanges are doing. >> We don't know. Isn't it crazy? We still don't know. >> We have no clue what happened on 1010 and it's still there's there's nothing. >> I mean we have some guesses on what happened but I'm not going to say that out loud. >> Right. >> Right. But uh I mean ultimately we are being the industry is a set of bucket shops and >> you know it's uh it's like this is when you you know when Gary Gensler left and you know I have to be careful with how I say it.

>> When Gary Gensler was fired I was like okay look >> thank God but we're going to miss him. >> Yeah. >> Right. And uh but what that means is that you know if it's it's crypto is about freedom. >> Yeah. >> But then there is sometimes too much freedom. >> Yeah. So you know exchanges can do whatever they want and you know they can set whatever prices they want. They can liquidate whoever they want and >> it's uh it's not really a sustainable market structure. So now we are you know doing clarity act proposals. >> I hope all of this [ __ ] will give a 16Z the power to push through some sensible clarity act proposals because the other VCs are not supporting them.

>> No >> right. Paradigm and all these guys like they're still looking for a lot of freedom. Yeah. >> Which is not good for anybody. No. >> So I'm hoping that uh the disasters that we are experiencing now will set the industry on a good path by getting some solid clarity at proposals and also the act right. Yeah. >> Now you can see why they're pushing back on interesting stable. >> Yeah. Seriously because you know how the sausage is made. >> Athena's TVL has gone down by six billion 7 billion. So it's topped out about 15. Now it's back down to about seven or eight.

>> Yeah. >> Um maybe closer to nine. I mean, you know, the thing is though, we didn't have the same amount of leverage this cycle that we did last. There was no Genesis, there was no Voyager, there was no FTX, there's no Celsius. Like it doesn't there wasn't the same amount, >> right? >> No, no, no, no, no. I I think we haven't seen it yet. So, >> we haven't seen like Micro Strategy. Have you heard of M? Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> So, they have Sure. They have Yeah. But there is common stock, right? Common stock is common stock. I get it. and and it's all funded by convertible arbitrage, right? So, you have Bitcoin volatility and Michael Sailor is effectively selling all of these uh you know call options to people.

>> Yeah. >> Right. So, and when you sell call options call options embedded call options, a lot of bad [ __ ] can happen. We have seen this in >> you know DATs before crypto. >> Uh I mean Michael Sailor is managing it well but all those preferred stocks are debt right in finance we think of preferred stock as debt. You don't think of it as because you know you're now now Michael is being very creative and he's coming up with all of these uh covenants on these preferred the new series of preferred where he is reducing the rights of preferred shareholders right to raise more and more money and push bitcoin.

>> Yeah. >> But that's leverage has been buying selling his own bitcoin to the dad and sorry ethereum to the dad and everyone all these ogs have been selling their crypto to the dads. So there is a lot of embedded leverage uh that we're not seeing and then there is leverage in def looping and stuff. Yeah. I mean balancer and stream and so >> where do you think interest where where do you think the yield comes from the same felt like we got we like somehow we got past that point but no >> we do we do you know as they say there is no credit risk in a bull market.

>> Yeah. So because in in a bull market like I got hacked for like you know 300k whatever else 200k 300k I lost a million dollar in four years you got >> yeah I got raped sorry I'm not supposed to say that I got really screwed and I made it back by working twice as hard you know not trading trading didn't make me any money I just did a lot of different things and worked really hard so I made it back >> and uh I mean it's obviously I wouldn't be working as hard if I hadn't been >> flagged off my soft wallet >> correct >> uh but uh Uh I mean you don't feel it right it's a bull market there's always a fart coin >> right there's always >> there's always the next fart coin there is the hyper air drop some [ __ ] or the

other but when the bare market hits >> it should be now it feels like it unless p fixes >> you think that we're >> right now we are in a bare market but it may not be there in December I mean >> I mean next month >> yeah it means next month >> next month may not be there market >> already next month because look hopefully all this right now we haven't paid the bills for what happened on 1010 Right. The bills are coming >> right now. We're still we're paying those bills right now. >> We're paying those bills right now. And all the now here is this is what we call systemic risk. Right. So it's not systemic in the sense that 2022 you're right. Right. There is no >> it's not the same level.

>> It's not like FDX blew up or Luna $36 billion thing blew up. Right. So it's right now the numbers are in tens of millions or hundreds of millions not not a billion dollars. There's no A that's gone under. So, so I think we're in a hopefully but but the the big source of risk as I said hasn't even started to play out and that's the digital asset treasury thing >> right ultimately that's what took us from 15k to 123k that's what took us from I was I was poor man I was broke but nobody came and saved me >> I know I know I know I saw your tweet I saw your tweet it was like [laughter] the good news is these big digital asset treasuries are not gonna they did they raised their capital in a way that was thoughtful let's say and then the

smaller altcoin ones are likely to really burn down hard. >> Yes. >> Maybe you can explain that tweet a bit. So like basically what you're saying is that sure there's not a systemic risk with these larger debts, but the a lot of the smaller ones are going to be under pressure. >> Yeah. So so it's a capital structure thing, right? So Michael Sailor, for example, stopped buying at a certain point, >> right? >> I mean he still has a considerable amount of debt when you think about preferred stocks and you still think about, you know, >> but then he also benefits from Bitcoin volatility. Now volatility is back, right? So the cover the call options he has sold are valuable which means there's going to be more demand for it's a really weird tick more demand for his stock. Uh so we don't know right and

then if sailor starts to pump the charts then ETFs start buying and you know then suddenly we are in a super cycle we all dancing at parties not that we had any of that this cycle last cycle we had a lot of that right so so so these things can turn on a time and the sentiment then certainly turns on a time we've seen the drama multiple times right >> I'm sure you guys were not partying in Korea we had no parties >> I'm sure there is no party in Korea >> this has been such an institutional cycle right >> no I know it's been way >> yeah like there has been no party not going to any single party >> there's no harmony founder on the table,000 none of that like there's no do party with you know I'm not going to say what

happened there but you know >> there was a beta chain party and then that didn't go so well >> but yes so this cycle has been extremely well behaved in some ways like institutional but the risk has shifted right so now there is a now there are some other risks so on one hand the capital structure on you know uh micro strategy is pretty sound I mean there's consider considerable amount of debt but there is some you know interesting financial engineering which is actually like counter cyclical, right? So you get more volatility and that makes the micro strategy options more like embedded options on the convertible debt more valuable that pushes the price bitcoin volatility. The sailor must be thinking okay maybe that's not such a bad thing right at some point comes along and saves him and then we are back up. So, so it's it's really weird but

there is also a point at which you know these hedge funds start shorting the ETFs you know you can short the ETFs right and if the AI bubble at some point and it is a bubble sure there's a lot of value there's a lot of cash >> but if the AI bubble goes and the hedge funds like you know you saw Michael Bur shorting Palanteer stock and you know if if if micro strategy gets shorted by properly like back in the day >> you know the then I think all bets are off then then you have you know like tremendous selling pressure on coins which kind of >> you know was uh so there is there is a point and and it's the same in DeFi sure you know Athena we saw that USD Athena was hard USD was hardcoded as one USDT in a right

>> bro >> I don't like it >> right so I mean uh A are phenomenal you know they're antifragile I worked for A >> uh I don't think anyone likes it I don't think even the A guys like it or whatever I think it's it was really smart that they did it >> it saved them >> it saved us all of us it saved all of us >> but there is a point where Athena becomes so systemically risky >> yeah that it's not worth it right >> it's not worth it so so I think all that looping and and other people have been doing what Athena has been doing without the same size >> right >> without the same controls right so without sort of making sure that collateral is bankruptcy remote or collateral is and isolated and all that and it runs through this copper loop

type of thing so so none of those controls are there and and we have these RE7 and a whole bunch of these other you know centralized counterparties that are looking like DeFi. >> Yeah. >> But then they're doing all these funky things, managing abraising off chain and all. >> So it looks like DeFi on the front. >> Yeah. But it's not. >> It's a terrible moment. >> It's just it's a terrible all of this credit risk on the back and >> at some point it blows up and that is today. There is 750 million of you know curated collateral and morpho and we don't know what's going on with that and if the market requests maybe some of these things will come out but there will be dead bodies if it goes the wrong way. Can can you talk a little bit more about 1010? Like you said the bills are

coming due now. I saw a lot of things happen afterwards where it was data some data analysis that said actually some of these leverage washouts and after we get rid of a lot of the systemic leverage that's actually bullish because then you know >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So so so the thing about credit risk is right that uh so it's it's very linked. So Andy lends to me I lend to you know you lend to Sergey. I mean Sergey is has infinite you know collateral hopefully so so that's fine right at some point Sergey is the Fed right so he can print money right right so but but in the meantime if I get you know liquidated then Andy is short on collateral >> right because I'm not paying I'm broke

already >> and now has issued a stable coin >> and now that's deped right >> you know so someone actually looped it in a >> right and then so some now this guy that that debt position is under >> liquidations You know if liquidation stop working then and a cannot liquidate that position then a has bad debt right so so so that's the thing about credit risk in a bull market there's no credit risk >> but in in in bare market it spreads like co >> right and and most people who have not worked in banks uh or kind of done those stupid things at a larger scale uh I think you know don't realize how bad it can get very quickly so but this time the biggest risk is from the dads right because they like I mean there's 15 billion dollars worth of eat now

probably less at this price right in in in one bat. I mean and and and now you know we understand why ETZilla and ESBet were being so cautious and why they were doing buybacks right and selling ETH at the right time and people were like why the bro are you selling that I was like you know on Twitter I was like look you got your job is to the shareholders it's not like crypto right where you send someone a token and they have no rights >> this is >> this is why we have security laws that's why you have the 1934 act in crypto we keep discovering why we have security laws every few years we keep discovering ing why banks work the way they work.

>> I'm so happy that Seg is trying to put these things together finally. >> A guy in the chat has just said it's a bear's wet dream. Um, you know, I don't know. Well, I don't know if the bears are having wet dreams, but >> and so despite all that credit risk that that you're talking about where liquidation, cascade, the stable coin DPEG, all of this happened on 1010. You still think that as soon as next month these things could reverse? Uh I think I mean a lot depends on you know if Jerome Pavl see at some point something has to trigger a price move upwards right because because what happens is when you are broke right and there are counterparties chasing you like Suzu back in the day or you know or FDX then you try and delay your bankruptcy as

long as possible and keep credit you know and then you first you try and delay payments >> second you actually try and make sure you know you uh find a way to pay people and then the prices recover then there is more chance that you know you have money to pay other people or settle your debts and all that and or negotiate a settlement right that's called debt restructuring all these things happen and and that's when the law comes back in then court is not law anymore right then and there are people settling with suzu or 3AC and they take going to court so credit risk is a very funny thing and well it's not funny when it happens so yeah so so anyway so so I think uh if the prices keep going down then there is less and less chance that these counterparties that got wiped on you

know have are 30 million short compared to how much they have borrowed >> right are able to recover that and pay back 15 million settle in an orderly way and then there is going to be you know and and then here is the problem if I go broke and >> oh you gave me all your money you're going to go broke too >> right so so that's what the credit risk issue is right so you kind of have these interlinkages >> and then if there is looping >> then it's even just >> compounds right >> yeah then it then it gets really bad right because but that's where the 18% % yield was coming from. So >> yes. Yeah. So so I think uh uh so a lot depends on what Trump and Pa will do next. I mean they're committed to pumping the markets and thank God for

them. >> I mean it's just like we will let you go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I I guess so. I mean I think you know we we so just want to say that none of what I said is supposed to scare people. >> We've seen the [ __ ] before. As Andy said, it's a lot less bad than 2021 than 2020 2022. But a lot depends on what happens next with, you know, I mean, a lot of this [ __ ] happened this week because Pavl said he will not cut rates. And >> I know that freaked everyone out. >> I know. >> Otherwise, Bitcoin was going to go up and so dumb because he's going to cut.

>> Yes, he's going to cut the rates. There's no way he has to cut rates, but he says that he's not. >> He says, but I think what Trump and Pav are trying to do at some point is get the markets back in order because they're not thinking about crypto. No, >> they're thinking about the AI bubble and the stock market, right? So, it's sometimes good to contain the bubble a little bit by saying hawkish things and saying, "Look, calm the [ __ ] down." >> Right now, it's like all systems go. It's like QT is coming to an end, rates are being cut. >> That's right. And the stock market is at an all time. Max 7 is crazy, you know. It's Yeah. So, so a lot of bad things can happen. And if bad things happen, then the stock market >> Oh my gosh. That's what I was trying to

tell you, man. You were like, "Oh, I'm bullish." I was like, "Right." >> You don't want to think about it. >> We're in a massive bull market in stocks. Let you go. Nice to meet you. But don't worry, >> we'll have you'll be fine. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Andy, we're gonna bring Andy from Hyperfi. >> Um we'll have him on >> and we're going to talk about Hyperfi's growth. Hyperlid's rise. >> I don't think Jerome Pal matters that much anymore. >> You don't think it matters that much anymore? You know what? I'm looking at the price of Hyperl. It's $3645. This daily candle looks awful. Where do we go from here? What is the future of Hyperlid, >> bro? Oh, the future of Hyperlid is super bright. Um, I'm actually incredibly bullish on this and a lot of other

assets, just not right now. >> Okay. [laughter] Right now, dude, this is really good under $20. >> No, no, no, no. I don't think so. I think the buy pressure on it is uh too strong. Like the problem is like people are levered up. So traders love hype and they want to hold hype and they lever up on hype and so when the market sinks, you have to delever. and and so there's just an unwinding period, but that doesn't mean like there's a ton of sell pressure. It means there's delever pressure and that is not the exact same thing, right? It's similar for related functions. It's going to have market implications, but you look at like the future of hype and the DATs that are coming online, how much cash they have on their balance sheet getting ready to deploy. Um, good macro tailwinds eventually, just like not today. But

overall, I'm still really bullish hype and have a really good ecosystem uh in general. I think it's just too strong to be ignored. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, we had this uh rumor mill a couple weeks ago where we talked about how there's all these tes coming to the hyper liquid ecosystem. Hyper EVM kinetic unit. Um tons of others head we haven't said anything just program hyper swap launch >> hybr is getting closed and there's a few more >> talk about like give us the the lay of the land here of hyperm >> what is happening where are the best opportunities to earn yield where's what the best points farms >> one one question at a time

>> yeah where we at here >> all right so be careful on the tgees they're not all insta dumps But there are a lot of people who are hyper bullish on hype but not on a lot of projects. And so assume and and my founder Andrew Lloyd has tweeted about this and got some [ __ ] for it too. Undeserved [ __ ] because everybody agrees with him is a lot of people are going to sell their tokens for hype. Hype is a great asset and people want more of it. And so you just have to kind of balance on that is how much you going to get on whatever airdrop or whatever distribution and what is its chances versus hype right now? Like like look at hype right now and it's a crazy buying opportunity. if you've got an extra couple grand, couple dozen grand in in

the can now from some airdrop, it's a great time to buy. So, so you really do have to balance that out and think through that. Now, that said, a lot of the projects do have like a ton of really long-term strong potential. Uh, and you that hard part is there's a lot of projects that launched really early that might not have a lot of long-term that you're not quite sure on yet. And so, uh, you know, the bad news is you got to actually do your own research. You got to do your due diligence. Who are their investors? Uh, what are their long-term prospects? who are their partners, what kind of token deals have they done, like what does that look like, what kind of tech are they integrating, and are you bullish on an actual team? Um, and for some of the teams, like I'm just not as bullish on

some. I am. I'm incredibly bullish. And there's some like >> That's natural, though. >> Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, you can't be bullish on everything. >> Exactly. >> What are some of your favorites? >> So, I'm going to do I'm going to shout out some friends and partners here like um the Rubify team. So, Rub launched as a memecoin as like a joke. Um, but then they've launched um, and they're coming to to main I think they might be in beta. Uh, but they're essentially democratized market maker vaults. And so you deposit in and then they take it to a professional market maker like system 9, people who make Binance books and stuff like that. And then they go make spot books on uh, Hyper EVM and then so you get the market maker fees on there.

So that's actually a new use case that's tied from EVM to Hyperlid core. And so like that's actually really interesting use case. incredibly strong team, great partnerships. Um there's a great project called Strata. They're doing junior and senior trunching of Ether um USD and stuff like that. That that's really interesting and very thoughtful. They've grown a ton uh in the last couple weeks. I don't know how they're doing today. Sorry everybody um what that might be. Um now I'm just popping up. Hyperfi like come off >> the boys in the house. So, uh, just to talk my own book a little bit, like we've got some stuff coming out soon, so keep an eye on us. We haven't announced a lot recently because we've been

cooking some things, but things that will catch your attention, uh, I guarantee very much. >> Um, I also think the DATs are really strong. I I'm super bullish on hype as an asset. And so for DATs to have that that has this assistance fund behind it, like perma bidding all the time, like it's hard to ignore what those are going to look like. There's others, too. There's others as well. Um, just blanking on them. So we had David Sheamus from Hyperlid Strategies on what are some of the other DATs that are that are coming out? >> So Hyperion is the other one. Those are kind of the two big ones right there. Hyperlid strategies and Hyperion. >> And are they roughly on the same road map?

>> Um well I don't know the details on there. I I think Hyperion has launched already. Hyperl strategies is waiting for November um to deploy a lot more. But both incredibly strong teams, strong thesis. There's some other decentralized ones as well. hype strategy um that it's not like a full DAT, not a proper NASDAQ listed, etc. Um but they are working to acquire hype and do that same sort of thing. So um those are both strong, you know, we like them because they've all teased that they want to participate in the ecosystem too. So we're like all right friends here alignment alignment.

>> Yes. >> Um it's important >> ton of great stable coin uh projects as well. So the USDG, the USDH native markets teams. USDG is the Paxos guys. >> Um and a bunch of other stuff as well. USDP is another one that's like a lesserk known stable. They're coming out. They've got some great um products in mind, too. So um yeah, I I think there's a lot to be bullish about on hyperl. >> What's your uh what's your read on on lighter and on Aster? >> Uh there's always room for competition. >> Okay. >> I'm I'm less bullish on Aster. I think that's kind of a it's kind of a copype [ __ ] thing.

>> Yeah. But like like Binance isn't the only centralized exchange. There's room for Coinbase which is smaller but still significant and a Kraken which is smaller but still significant and addresses niche. Like we're an A fork. We're not trying to compete with a slightly different market. There's room for us and a so like I'm very comfortable with competition. Like there should be and so I think lighter is great. I I have friends who are really bullish on lighter. Um they say for more than the points. We'll see. Rad if you're being honest with me. Sorry to call out my boy on it. Coins expensive right now.

>> Yeah, right. Like I keep seeing Oh, I have no >> $90 a coin or something, but maybe they're a little less now. >> Do do you think there'll ever be a airdrop too for Hypquid? >> Man, I wish I could speculate on that. I've been a season 3 believer for a very long time. I didn't get the airrop, so like I've I'm just like a convert bull hype bull. Um so, you know, I'm hoping. Um, but on the other hand, economically, it might make sense for them to never do that. Like, why would you just, right, do this constant inflation deflation game? Why wouldn't you burn it or just lock it or deposit it?

>> John Charb's proposal, right, was you've effectively got this gigantic ecosystem fund that is supposed to be deployed into the industry. Why not just mint those tokens if you ever choose to go into the industry with them? Yeah. >> In the meantime, we can just delete them from the balance sheet and decrease the supply. If it ever makes sense to me mint them later, then so be it. >> What if they want to do it in 20 years, >> right? >> Like we're not I I'm thinking in months time because I'm in crypto and like we're thinking cycles, but these guys have been thinking in decades for a lot longer. And so when you do turn that on, that's exactly it. It's like, well, you might want to save that for a security budget in the future. They change the block speed and they distribute to way

more validators. They open up that set. They keep opening up more and more validators. What if it opens up to 120, 2,000? then actually you need to deploy that hype for security and that might be a better use of it. Oh, I don't know. I want to believe. >> Were you glad that native markets won or did you know what do you think hyper liquid ecosystem would have? You >> can't make me pick a favorite. >> You can't make me pick on this. I think all the teams are very strong and we support all those assets in the market. >> Give us maybe like uh like h uh how have things been going since native markets one? What have been some of the steps that they've taken after they won the vote? Right. They did buy and deploy the 200,000 hype uh for the ticker.

>> Oh, it's deploy. It's on EVM. It's out. Like you you can trade with it. We have deposits on it right now. The rates are insane because the market adjustment. So if you want to make some money like there's good yields on USDH right now. >> Um sweet. >> Like and that's just straight up lending yield. So that team is shipping. They are delivering. Uh my understanding is they're currently working with teams on the best way to incentivize more mints across the EVM and some other places. So I know they're hustling. We talk to them regularly. Good team there. >> Andy, we we got to let you go, man. It was a short segment, but really appreciate your insight.

>> Liquid Minute. >> Cheers. >> I like that new segment. Hyperlid minute. >> Hyperlid minute. All right, guys. Uh, >> guys, we're >> VC if you're ready in the crowd. Come to us, sir, whenever you are ready to continue our conversation from earlier. I >> give me give me some context. What was your conversation earlier? >> I mean, you're about to find out, buddy. How do we save this chart? Is that what >> that's what it's gonna be about? Which institutions are we showing ETH2 this week? Brother, >> you got any ideas?

>> Look, I think you're too zoomed in. >> I think we're about to find out. >> I think you should close that tab. >> We're about to find out. Are we We're going to close that tab. >> The man behind your stops. [laughter] In this case, the man behind the Ethereum institutional adoption run. We had a good panel earlier, although shortlived. >> It was shortlived. >> It's good to have you on. >> Yeah. Thanks for It's good to meet you. >> Been watching ours podcast for a while. >> It's been epic content. It's called the rollups, which we care a lot about.

So, >> that's right. Love to see it. >> How's your smart con? How's that? It's very institutional here. It's very finance, right? It's not so tech oriented. It's much more It's finance. It's the infrastructure that's going to build, you know, the future finance. Not so much as >> quite a bit different than Buenos. >> That that is going to be way different, right? >> It's going to be way different. Although starting to get sick of the word institution. It's like it's the new buzz word. It's almost like if you take a drink every single time someone's at institution, you'll last for like 10 minutes. [laughter] >> 100%. I agree. But it is very institutional here.

>> I'm wearing a set. I don't know why. [laughter] >> You know what the funny part is? I left Wall Street. Yeah, >> after 11 years and I got rid of all my suits. I was like, I'm never gonna need this again. I'm going to crypto and now the only way to make crypto work is to put up go back to Wall Street. It's a little >> It's a full circle. >> So, I mean, people are are watching right now. They're wondering what the hell is happening to ETH. It's at 3100. Was that 5K a month ago? All the DATs were buying. And I asked you kind of where you think we're at in this debt kind of world. and basically made it seem like we're at the end of the beginning like or like let's just say we're at the end of this first like hype

wave but the actual like process of these digital asset treasure companies accumulating Ethereum is like in it's in its first year but it's in its early beginnings what does the cycle look like going forward from your perspective we didn't really get to get into it too much just give us your outlook here >> I will is right now it's a punch in the gut in terms of price action At the end of the day, like I've been waiting I've been trying to do institutional adoption. I've been I've been going around at the banks and asset managers for the last five years saying, "Hey, there's this really cool Ethereum thing.

You guys want to use it? You want to put your assets on? You want to put your trading and settlement operations on it?" Everyone thought I was crazy for four years. And like everyone's ready. So like you couldn't ask for a more bullish setup for actual real responsible adoption. And when when these players come on, they're burning trillions of dollars of assets. It's not the small. So Ethereum is going to do well. E is going to do very well. It's not going to be this month unfortunately, but um but but I still think that we're set up in a gold box situation um macro side where institutional adoption is happening. So I have as much conviction as possible and I see the data points. I see that there's demand come to the I think that's been like one of the best things that happened to Ethereum specifically

because >> we have to remember that like Micro Strategy it took a long time for it to become the the leading for people to notice. >> Yeah. Eat bats have only been around for like six months. I think Luben only started and then Tomley started even later. He accumulated a ton of ETH. >> These guys aren't in the game for six months and then tap out. Like this is just the beginning. I mean Andrew Keys is now going to go out to market and like go be super super prominent. There's a lot of other prominent DS that haven't even launched yet or started accumulating yet. >> We saw wave one. That's why I thought we were at the end of the be. We're end of the first inning.

>> Yeah. But we haven't seen more differentiated DS come on. And we also haven't seen any of the earnings reports. We haven't seen what they're doing. We haven't seen like the functionality that can happen to DAT. With a Bitcoin now, you can do one thing is hold the Bitcoin and then lever up the Bitcoin and then buy more Bitcoin and like >> that's a little scary. With ETH, you can be like, let's stake. Let's stake on L1. Let's stake on L2s. Let's restake. Let's um actually do some lowrisk activity. So that's going to start to be. So, I guess this is a long window way of saying you don't need ETH price to go up for the debts to start to acrue value. They can start to actually make earnings. When Wall Street sees that, it's just going to click. Wait, there's no income.

>> Operating margins are really, really high. Like, you need four people to run a$1 13 billion um DAT, like that's pretty powerful. >> Yeah. >> So, you think uh earnings reports are going to inspire uh Wall Street firms and more DATs to come online? >> Yeah, absolutely. And so, I I like compared DATs to asset managers. There are like thousands of asset managers in the US. All of them do different things. Some are small, some are big. They all have differentiated strategies. Some trade below their net asset value, some trade above. Like bats are sort of like the crypto versions of asset managers that are natively on chain. And that that's pretty powerful. Like Trafi gets that. But no one has been able to understand and like analyze what activity on Ethereum can mean. the guys

are going to force that because >> there's like five right now major ones maybe maybe 10 major ones. >> You're going to get 10 earnings reports every quarter from Ethereum companies saying >> analysts have to look at that. It's their job to look at that and say let's find good companies. Let's initiate coverage. You're going to see analyst report. You're already seeing a lot of analyst reports come out on Bitmine on on Shark Link and others. And each is want to tell is going to want to tell a differentiated story. It's like the storytelling has just begun and we saw how long it took for the ETH narrative. I launched Etherealize a year ago and like no one would listen to ETH as being a store of value or as digital oil and now it's it's it's it took a year but like now people actually sort of accept

it a year from I think the that thing is going to be quite prevalent and um >> what do you think has been your biggest win for Etherealiz since inception? >> Um the biggest wins are yet to come. Uh >> come on. >> No they they take a long time. They take a long time we're going big. We're going really really like I'm not going for like small time adoption like we're trying to get the biggest players and um >> develop strategies for them to plug into Ethereum and I I I think it's going to work and I think we're going to see a lot of like a big giant wave of real adoption across different tokenized assets a lot more layer 2 rollups. I I love those. Um I think most of that if not all of that everything we're doing is on Ethereum but I think most of the

other um adoption is also going to happen on Ethereum but like >> yeah knowing that sales cycles are slow we've done some pretty cool things pretty quickly like we went in front of Congress and testified about the Clarity Act and it's one of the first times that they're misrepresented in US politics and that was a civic duty and it was pretty inspiring because you see that there is actually appetite from it's sat in front of Congress both sides of the aisle. >> Yeah. >> They want the same thing they want responsible adoption. Um, so like I don't know, we've we've done some of that. We've like hopefully helped reignite some of the narrative around ETH being a store of value differentiated asset, not like it's not a software company. It's not it's not a revenue multiple type analysis. We help shift that narrative.

>> Yeah. A lot of the things um that we're building and doing, working with um we'll see soon. >> So let's just say there's some big things coming in the pipeline. >> I hope so. I mean that's that's why we formed Etherealize. It's it's it's Ethereum is a global platform and it's an institutional platform like we it's an app store. I think I hope that all builders will I hope we keep a big culture of building. I think Bass has done an awesome job about that saying hey come innovate come experiment come create market creator. I love all that stuff because Jesse tweeted recently that base is the place where you can make the most money. Like that's a really good message that that's a good positive some message.

>> Yeah. I want to take that message for institutions for better or worse and say that Ethereum is the best place to do business and show them why and that's that's the only selling point that I think like take tribalism aside. It's it should be the best place to do business and I think we'll start showing some of that. >> The there's so many ins and outs and and within Ethereum we constantly sort of look at it as the north star for what the industry should be doing but we also try to tear it down. is is the conversation outside of Ethereum when you're you're speaking to whether it's financially insured like you know if it's uh Wall Street firms or uh Congress Democrats and Republicans what are the what are the objections to Ethereum

right now as the home of business what are the roadblocks that you're trying to overcome have we like in the current era right we've overcome a lot of the um hey Ethereum's identity problem hey you know why are we you know our rollups and the eel sort of competitive with one another. We've overcome a lot of that. What do you think is the next thing that this industry for Ethereum has to overcome in order to progress a lot of the mission that you're talking about? >> Well, I think the architecture is ready and I think the road map is ready and every like the community like you said, everyone's aligned the same way. We just need to blitz adoption. We need to make sure we stay commercial, we stay pragmatic. We're doing that. So, like I mean say that we need as many assets on

Ethereum as possible. We need as many L2s as possible. So, we had to keep accelerating that message. One roadblock that um will come across is obviously privacy um because you couldn't have privacy on public blockchains. Not a because ZK tech had to mature. It's matured and and ZK tech is like spectacular and it's the answer and I bet the next cycle is going to be a ZK cycle. Yeah. Um but the second thing too is like privacy was not legal. Like privacy you couldn't innovate on privacy in a compliant way in the US. I mean, you saw happen at tornado cash. Like, that's that's not a that's that's scary.

So, there was a chill chilled innovation sentiment. Um, now that that's opened up, like we're we're building a lot of those tools. That's about we're building tools for compliant privacy on Ethereum at the tokenization layer, at the app layer, like all like things that are way more expressive and using really, really cool ZK tools that are now production grade and ready and fast enough and cheap enough. I think that's going to be a huge unlock because you can't have any big sum of institutional money come on chain without the ability to have some privacy but also be compliant.

That was impossible for now. >> Yeah. You know, I think like part of this is, you know, we didn't get to talk about this on the panel, but this like practical era of crypto like I really truly believe that we're like entering a world where we're putting a lot of the fugazi aside and like we're really just getting down to the bare bones of what we're trying to achieve here. stable coins payments remittances the boring, the unsexy stuff came to the forefront. It's what the institutions, it's what large capital allocators want. It's what firms want to advance their businesses. Then you've got like NASDAQ, other large uh, you know, trading groups, the CME saying 247 saying that we're going to do stable coin settlements. So, it's like all of these things are coming together. And again just feel just like we we're like we've

trimmed a lot of the fat and we're coming down to like okay what is the practical real use case that we're trying to achieve here when it comes to uh implementing this like practical era for Ethereum uh in in its next phase you know I know we've kind of been talking all around it but like firmly like tangly what do you believe that that looks like for the community right like you you're speaking to a lot of builders a lot of engineers a lot of just uh ETH holders today on the show you know when you're speaking to the community like what is the practical era of Ethereum mean to you and you know what can we do to steward that uh for everybody in this global adoption kind of phase >> it's twofold um first is and I'm inspired that our team will do

this we're not just building bridges to nowhere anymore we need to integrate Ethereum engineering with tradfi engineering and with existing processes like a lot of this is boring back office stuff I actually find it really interesting like can solve operational problems. Can you solve settle? Can you go take the most boring parts of a bank or or a asset manager, the most technologically backwards places and upgrade them? That's not just let's write cool smart contracts. It's a lot of just offchain grunt work. And so we said to be ready for that. Like it's going to be a long road. Someone has to do it. Um >> I Danny Ryan, which I'm blessed every day to call a co-founder, like he thought it was worthwhile. He was like, "That's a mission worthwhile. Let's roll up our sleeves and do the boring stuff

because that's what's going to get the real lasting adoption. That's what we have to do. I I I'm I'm I'm kind of sick of cycles where like we build some stuff, it's segregated from the world and never gets integrated and then it all collapses. Like no, like we're not going to see a cycle this time even if ETH goes below 3,000 because like the technologies actually be integrated into institutions and once that happens it can't get undone and our job is to accelerate and make sure that it gets integrated and can't get undone. And so when you ask about the community like what can community do I'm pretty positive some every competitor to Ethereum is trying to tear Ethereum down point to like why this is a bad architecture. I firmly believe that the only way for like long-term sustainable secure financial upgrade is for the

entire financial system to be on Ethereum. So we have to fight back. We have to like we have to also say that the ecosystem architecture we've created is the correct architecture and keep educating. I mean like not let our guard down. We've done a really good job as a community sort of stepping up to that. But we have we had to keep that we got to keep that pressure. La >> last question from my side is you know you you you speak about the Ethereum technical architecture. I think we're seeing it become integrated into finance. What's the the value proposition for ETH asset? H how after you know integrating all of these things and making Ethereum the home of a lot of this this the home of finance in general, how does that ultimately find its way to E? You mentioned it's not a revenue multiple.

it it's more you know just from your side could you tell the story? >> Yeah I it's twofold and it's really important to buy forget the two. So first of all just because I don't think ETH the assets should be valid in revenue doesn't mean that I don't think there won't be revenue on Ethereum. Like I think we're just at such a tip of the iceberg of adoption. We have a dozen rollups maybe a few more but like I think we're gonna have hundreds of rollups maybe thousands of rollups. I think the application layer is untapped. There's gonna be so many more applications. you're not sending more users that's going to that's going to generate fees that's going to burn ETH.

So there will be the flywheel like Ethereum has a mechanism to burn ETH as activity rises. If the whole global economy and the financial system runs on Ethereum, that's going to burn a lot of heat. So that's that's the qualitative answer. Let's take that out though. I don't think ETH should be coupled with activity on Ethereum. ETH is a store of value for the whole ecosystem. ETH is one of the best collateral assets. It's one of the best designed store value assets ever. I would contend that it's up there with Bitcoin. So the conversation needs to be Bitcoin and ETH the portfolio. People have now capitulated on on trify side and said, "Okay, Bitcoin is part of a portfolio.

We need to make sure it's Bitcoin and ETH because because you have Bitcoin as digital gold and you have ETH as digital oil. You you have it powering the entire digital economy. It has a yield. It has predictable issuance. It has a maxed issuance cap. It has very very good store value properties. We're in an inflationary world where things are inflating. So things that hold value, especially that are digital, are are important. And I think ETH is the pristine store of value asset. So that's why the treasury companies tell that story. The Ethereum ecosystem, they hold ETH. People hold ETH as a store of value. That's why it's going to repric to become in the trillions, not because of longerterm revenue. The revenue is icing on the cake. Like when the world's on boarded, it's going to be very obvious. Okay. Well, the one neutral

asset across the entire digital economy is ETH. So that's how I think it'll like really repric. And I think I still think it's going to flip in Bitcoin. So >> wow. You still think ETH is gonna flip Bitcoin? >> Yeah, I mean I >> in market cap. >> Not this year, I guess, unfortunately. But um but we have two months left. But [laughter] no, I do I do. I think just think about it when you explain it to Wall Street. Store of value plus cash flow plus productivity should [snorts] be greater than store of value. So like Bitcoin has a head start and Bitcoin has achieved digital goal status, but it's a better store of value asset. We we will go educate on that forever. But it is a better portfolio asset to hold over the long term because you get upside from

the growth of an economy and you get this amazing store of value characteristic. And this is not again Bitcoin's great. I think a lot of people have can point out flaws in Bitcoin. I won't do that because other people can, but but I think as portfolio waitings go from all Bitcoin to Bitcoin and some ETH as it flips to Bitcoin and ETH 50/50, I think it'll ultimately flip it. Well, the portfolio waiting in I don't want to use the buzz word again but you know among asset managers I guess right they they've capitulated and have started to say maybe okay uh uh maybe 5% right of our assets um maybe 5% of our assets go into crypto right out of that 5% how much would you say go into ETH right so

you so I maybe I'm I'll just kind of pass it to you for more numbers but say you know we've capitulated as a as a as an industry to say okay 5% belongs in crypto uh that is most uh initially is put into bitcoin right that 5% but of that 5% some of it is non zero some of it is put into e is it 2% of the five is it three is it four like where where are we at how far behind Bitcoin are we in the in the asset manager space >> five years behind I mean so that gap isn't going to close quickly. So, right now it's it's >> the reason I have conviction on this is it's it was very recently 100% Bitcoin and like

>> let's look at other things. ETH has crossed the chasm. Look at the inflows for the ETH ETFs over the summer. Look at how much I mean Tom Le's not only bought, but Tom Tomley knows what he's doing. I mean, he's he's been around the block for a long time. I mean, he's saying ETH is a store of like I'm not the only one saying Bitcoin will or ETH will flip Bitcoin. He's said that on on like he's not just saying that for the sake of it like he obviously believes it and so my point is the portfolio allocation for ETH will increase over time and as it increases um the market caps should get closer and then [clears throat] as the market the the ironic part is the closer the market caps get people will be like well this one has yield this one's used across an

economy and this one is digital gold so which one people like ultimately technology upside more and just store value. >> So, if it's not this year, what's what's the time horizon? >> I called for 10k ETH this year. We're now at 3K. So, [laughter] so um I'm still saying 12K. >> I'm still holding off. >> You still got two months, boys. >> I know. We still have two months and like and we were at $1,500 on ETH this year. So, I'm kind of >> swings from feels like we're back there somehow.

>> Yeah, it does. Well, that's the thing. That's the thing. crypto can crypto we're entering a macro goldilocks era too. So we're having the money printer. We've never had >> a tailwind for the last three four years. We haven't had a tailwind of falling rates and increasing liquidity. We're going to get that. I think he's going to fly. Like I mean I hope it's still I hope it's still through a year end but if not then 2026 is the year >> I think it's going to fly. >> It's going to fly. >> We bet. Thank you man. We let you go. >> Great seeing you man. >> I appreciate it. Thanks for the time and uh we really appreciate your work, man.

>> Thanks a lot. >> Yeah. Cheers. >> Appreciate you having me. It's good meeting you guys in person. >> Yeah, man. Thanks for listening. We'll have to get you on. >> Yeah, let's do it again. >> You're now part of the guest flow. >> Thank you, sir. >> Man, I'm so glad we got Ethereum Bulls here to convince you not press the red button. >> I'm ready. I'm ready for zero, boys. >> Guys, we'll see you guys. Are we under 100? No, 105, >> guys. It is 400 p.m. We have got chain link God up next. >> Yeah, he's going to wrap us up. >> He's going to be super bullish, I'm sure.

>> Chain link God. >> We'll have to get him up. Let's bring him up here. The man of the hour, Zach Ryan, community liaison at Chain Link. [laughter] Man, what a day. Crazy day. >> SmartCon day one. Crazy week, actually. >> How are you feeling? little tired, but I think there is just an incredible momentum of announcements happening this week. It's like I'm still still trying to absorb it all, you know. >> Okay. >> Do you want to put it out into into the universe? Can you just, you know, just rattle off the most the things that are getting you the most excited, some of the announcements, anything that hasn't been really like just put it out into the universe and and give our our community the whole update. Yeah, I

think the biggest thing that's happened this week is the validation of chain link as not just a price feed in Oracle, but as this growing developer platform. So I think that people historically have had this mental model of chain link as being like just just just a price feed solution. And I think people's mental model is like, oh, oracles are just a sidecar attached to the side of a blockchain and just injects data like that's okay, who cares? And I think the where chainlink is moving towards in the in the proper mental model is that chain link is this global orchestration layer that sits above and across all blockchains and all external networks and data points and orchestrates the activity between each of these different onchain and offchain systems. So one of the things that was announced uh today at smartcon was the actual launch and

release of the chainlink runtime environment or the CRA which is the developer platform where you can come in and write offchain uh workflow code and you can orchestrate a very complex institutional style smart contract. So one thing that Sergey talked about in his in his presentation was that originally the concept of a smart contract was a piece of code that you uploaded to one blockchain. So like you could have like you know just a one token it's just one smart contract and that that's like a v1 smart contract and then smart contracts got a little bit more complicated uh with the introduction of of DeFi like a you know you would have smart contract on one chain but then you would need price data and once you have price data then you can have lending and borrowing and all this activity and you would also need to

be able to bridge between different networks. So now you have these these bridges connected different networks and kind of the the V3 so to speak model of smart contracts is that you have the data oracles, you have the crosschain oracles, but then you have the ability to orchestrate across multiple different blockchains and systems. You have compliance for tokenized assets, you have privacy for tokenized assets and and private money and the ability to orchestrate all of these different networks, all of these different off-chain payment systems and enterprise backend systems all into these universal smart contracts. So the concept of smart contract is not just the code on one chain. It's all the offchain systems and all the oracle networks that enable that that smart contract to actually function. So I think

>> that mental model shift. I don't think most people have recognized that so far. They think smart contract they think just you know single smart contract on a single chain. But I think people realize any meaningful institutional smart contract use case is going to require compliance, privacy, crosschain data and all kinds of different orchestration. So some of the use cases of CRA kind of kind of uh helped emphasize that. So one of the use cases that went into production just recently was uh UBS tokenized a money market fund called on Ethereum and if you just issue a token alone that's not sufficient like you just have a token but it's not representing anything. So they're using the chainlink runtime environment for u digital transfer agency which means that

you can subscribe and redeem to and from the fund using onchain currencies like stable coins as well as the ability to use swift payment uh messages. So I from my bank account can subscribe to a fund using traditional dollars and receive this tokenized fund and vice versa. I can uh do a a redemption for the tokenized fund and receive swift dollars in the traditional bank system along with all the the compliance and the ability to move the token crosschain as well as all the data to do the subscription redemptions like this this contract alone wouldn't have been very useful if it was just a smart contract.

You need all this connectivity. So that that's like one uh one example of how the CR can abstract this complexity way and because it's a developer platform and you can do all these computations offchain those computations benefit from privacy technologies. >> So that was the one of the other things that Sergey and Chainlink announced today is uh chain link confidential compute. So you can run your workflow code offchain and you're able to run that using various different kinds of privacy technology. So initially it's using cloud-based TE or trust execution environments so that you can run workflow code completely offchain completely privately but it's modular in the future that it can support ZK proofs multiart computation various different

kinds of uh privacy can be implemented but that way you can have uh privacy preserving token transfers privacy preserving crosschain bridging you can have smart contracts where most of the logic just sits offchain but you just have the the settlements happen onchain so you see tokens moving but you don't actually know the logic behind those tokens. You can have like private deals between anybody. So like that's just one example of how the the CR and then work workflow code can really orchestrate complex use cases. So those have me really excited. There's a million other things I'm probably missing. Uh I know I'm missing that was announced this week, but I think that the CR and the chain link develop platform is what gets me like very excited. I just I do not see anyone else in crypto even like

attempting this level of scale of this type of of developer platform. >> So this is a new mental model for chain link. Um and you you still call chain link an oracle but the the expansiveness of chain link that you described you just like you just said is unparalleled >> to anyone else in the industry and so it's not fair to call other oracles uh they're not ready for this mental model shift. Do is it still fair to call chain link an oracle? It's obviously a lot bigger and more I also thinking about calling chain link an L1 and you have all of these other rollups and blockchains that are now using chain link and built on top of it. How do you characterize chain link these days given all of its components the runtime the

confidentiality the oracle price feed which is still a significant portion of the business. Is there a single uh description that can characterize what chain link is doing? What what would you sum up this mental model as? >> So yeah, it's it's a great question and I think that there's two approaches. You can try and go for like a very technical angle of like what what chain link becoming now is orchestration. You're able to orchestrate activity between onchain and offchain systems and that's very generalized. That could be any kind of data. But I think also people have this uh I'm not sure if it's a misconception but an understanding that oracles equals data and typically price data. But realistically there's a lot of technology in crypto that are oracles.

We just don't call them oracles. Like for example uh a crosschain bridge. A crosschain bridge is just an oracle network where the data source is another blockchain. But fundamentally you're connecting some kind of off-chain data which is really just another blockchain to another blockchain network. But at the end of the day it's just an oracle. So like anything that a blockchain itself is not doing but needs to be able to connect with external systems is ultimately oracles. So I think the the industry kind of got sapped a little bit that like price oracles was the big product market fit of oracles because it enabled DeFi and DeFi is the big product market fit. But at the end of the day they're all just oracle networks. So what what Chainlink's really becoming is this global oracle platform. So you can come in and describe what does your

smart contract need from the external world. Does it need to connect to Swift payments? Does it need some kind of privacy preserving off-chain computation layer? Do you need to connect to DTCC app chain or do you need to connect to Salana or Ethereum or these other networks? Do you need identity data? Like it's all just oracles at the end of the day. >> Can you tell us more about that? That this DTCC app chain I remember learning about DTCC because they process on the scale of quadrillions per year. And then we were at this speaker dinner last night and I saw Sergey sitting with someone from the DTCC. I wasn't totally aware of what the partnership or what the uh the the the situation is with the DC. Can you just unpack what what it is

that the DTCC, which is a clearing company, what what they're doing with Chain Link and how they're using Chain Link? >> Yeah, there's a there's a few different things. One was earlier last year, it was an initiative called SmartNav. So smart net asset value where chain link worked with the DTCC uh to make net asset value data available on chain which sounds really simple but you need that data on chain in order to unlock things like mutual funds and so that was kind of DTCC's first kind of step forward with with chain link in terms of like you know we put data on chain we can unlock tokenization uh one of the more recent developments that happened this year chain link worked with swift euro clear DTCC and like a dozen other banks on a use case for AIdriven

corporate actions data which sounds very complicated but corporate actions are effectively anything related to a stock like a dividend or a merger or an acquisition like anything but the price consider a corporate action and so when a company does like a dividend they usually issue like a press release saying hey we're doing a 10-centent per share dividend but it's really difficult to take like a PDF uh release of a corporate actions event and adjust that back into the financial system so they can actually make the change and so What chain link uh did with Swift, Euro Clear, DTCC and these other entities was run these AI oracle networks where the AI uh oracles were able to ingest all the corporate actions data in human readable format, the PDF press release, turn that into a machine readable

component, publish that on the DTCC app chain and then make that data available both to existing financial institutions as well as available to other blockchain networks where the tokenized asset management. So like for example, if you had a corporate actions event about like a Apple stock dividend, that would be validated from the press release for Apple into an AI Oracle network that comes to consensus, uses three different AI models to to reach consensus on it, deliver that on DTCC app chain. DTCC validates that as correct um and then makes that data available so all tokenized Apple stock has access to that dividend data. And if you're just a traditional institution who wants like a single source of data for that for that dividend, you can just look on on the blockchain and you can see that data

already validated. So like it seems like it's a very weird niche like kind of boring use case, but this is a problem that causes like you know billions of dollars in inefficiencies a year because you have all these archaic systems. They email each other the dividends and corporate actions like it's it's it's inefficient. But these kind of uh blockchain plus AI plus oracle use cases actually drives meaningful efficiencies in the traditional system. Very cool. I'm sure Andy's got questions. I've just got one more followup, which is I I'm curious bit more generally. What has been the most difficult problem that Chain Link has had to solve? You guys are working and have have your tentacles in so many different areas. You're you're working with off-chain systems.

You're working with onchain systems. I I was speaking with someone from the PR team. Your uh organizations up to 700 people, right? So, there's several departments all working on several things in parallel. I'm just curious if you could call out what some of the more difficult problems that you've had to solve are. >> I think one of the challenges is that Jan Link has always taken like security and reliability as like the top tier priority for everything. But a lot of the infrastructure that's within the space doesn't necessarily hold those same standards. So when you're building on a chain that's not necessarily the most reliable, it's almost like you're building a quick set. And people expect chain link to be the most reliable, the most secure, but if the chain itself goes down, then it's like then the whole stack kind of falls apart. like that

that could be a bit of a difficulty. As Chanley becomes more of this like configurable platform, you come to it, you say, "Hey, I need this data and then it gets put on chain." Well, if there's any issue with the downstream data sources, then that's going to cause an issue for the application. And so people may look at like chain link as the problem, but then they don't realize, oh, it's just how it's configured. You know, it'll deliver the data that developers want if it was misconfigured or the data quality was not sufficient. That's just how you set up the Oracle network. like it's it's similar example of like if you deploy a buggy smart contract, you wouldn't like blame Ethereum for that. So, I think there's kind of a a mental model mismatch. And I would say in general um one of the challenges I suppose is like convincing

Trady to really start stepping full force into intokenization and and all these different use cases because I I think they're more convinced than ever. But like historically over the past, you know, seven years, I mean, Chandler started working with Swift in like 2016, you know, it's almost 10 years later and like now Swift announced a blockchain and now they're going more and more um into the industry, but like it takes them time, you know, and cryptos just boom boom boom boom boom and institutions, they don't necessarily want to move that fast probably because they manage trillions and quadrillions of assets. The stakes are a little bit different, but it's still like, all right, you know, we're ready to go today and we want to take it step by step by step. So like you know this is something you got to work work through.

>> Talk to us a bit about the uh link reserve. I know that that's been you know the last time that we spoke that was you know the main topic uh what's been the progress since how has that been going? Are you satisfied with it? Um just generally how do you feel about that? Mhm. >> Yeah. The the chain link reserve just like context for people is this uh strategic reserve of link tokens where onchain revenue as well as off-chain revenue from the adoption of chain link services is converted to link and then put in this onchain strategic reserve. So that's been growing pretty consistently about $1 million a week and I think ultimately um over the long term like this isn't meant to be like some kind of short-term initiative or kind of some short-term gain but it's it's

really driving long-term sustain for the network. It's going at a very sustainable clip. I know some people may shoot up to gazillion right away, but realistically, you know, Oracle networks still cost capital to operate, but you want to be able to build for the future as well. So, it's kind of building this reserve in in a sustainable long-term manner. But I think the main thing that it signals is that there's a lot of projects in crypto, and I don't want to name names. I don't want to call out anybody, but there's a token equity conflict of interest in where the value acrus to the equity and then the tokeners get shafted. Yes. and that there's a lot of different reasons for that and you know there's I won't get into the specifics but you know the fact that Chandlick is you know coming out saying hey we're going to drive value to

the token through the strategic reserve and by you know using offchain revenue and using that for onchain buybacks like no one else is doing that like there's other projects doing onchain buybacks but taking offchain revenue like that's that's a bit of a foreign concept so I think the main thing is just signal to people like hey it's still early stage it's still in the early game the main moneym opportunity is going to be trify coming on chain. They're the guys who have all the money. Yeah. But we're going to signal ahead of time like the token is at the center of the chain link ecosystem. And I think that helps because people understand L1 economics like blockchain. You have a token, you pay for gas, you make transactions like it's very straightforward. And then but you know chain like not L1. It's an

oracle network. So then the mental model gets a little bit confused. But in my mind, most tokens are either going to be money. It's like a bitcoin. And that's that's a very difficult thing to to be received as a store of value. I think basically only bitcoins really achieve that. Or you're a cash flow token. You're protocol that makes a lot of money uh either today or into the future and you return that to token or in some manner. I think everything else is interesting but not necessarily value additive to the token itself. I think it it really just comes down to like do you have the ability to create a good product that people want to adopt that people want to pay for and you're able to scale up the monetization over time and return that value back to token holders who contribute to them right

like it's it's just the time scale over which that plays out can be different for different projects right so I I think the reserve is just really signaling like the the link tokens at the center of the chain link ecosystem >> what were some of the things that you saw early in chain link's uh life cycle that kind of gave you the conviction to stick around. Not all projects survive as long as Chainlink has survived. Not all community members stay with a single project. Uh you're sort of a unicorn in that sense. What what gave you the conviction to chain link early on?

>> That's a good question. So when I first dove into chain link, this was like early 2018. The team did the token sale late 2017 and they basically were doing no marketing at all. Like they had like one tweet in the whole time period. you know, think back to all the ICO projects hyping things up and you know, you know, people thought like Sergey disappeared or, you know, whatever, but people started to dig into like the background of Sergey and to, you know, the background connections and people saw that like, oh, Sergey was working with, you know, he joined the Swift hackathon in 2016 and won the Innotribe contest with the, you know, tokenized smart bond uh smart contract concept. You know, they were working with DocYsine founder as an adviser. like they all these like background institutional use cases to me signal that like something serious was

happening in the background and for me what really clicked like when I looked into crypto initially I fell down the typical Bitcoin and Ethereum rabbit hole and when I was looking at Ethereum I saw that all the tokens were issued on Ethereum but when I thought of like an inst like what an institutional smart contract use case would require you know it would need traditional payments it would need connectivity to backend systems like I kind of knew the Oracle problem before I knew what it was called or what the concept was. So when I came across chainlink and some writing that people put out about chain link and they they described this institutional smart contract use cases you need payments backend system connectivity all this data and I'm like oh like that's like that's the missing piece like that this industry doesn't work without an Oracle

platform. So like for me it it really clicked and then since then >> everything's kind of validated my thesis right like you know DeFi summer hit and then price feeds were made available and oh look A launched and they scaled to become the biggest DeFi application and they wouldn't have existed without price feeds right and now we're seeing uh you know compliance and privacy solutions coming out and all these institutions are saying we need compliance we need privacy or we can't touch onchain assets or or tokenized assets like to me chain link's always been like 10 steps ahead which means that people don't always understand what it's doing and it can be a little like technically complicated in terms of like how many different, you know, things there are with the platform. But I I think historically what I've seen is that Chinlink builds what the users need before they even

necessarily realize that they need it. I think that's I think that's always built up my conviction over time. >> Yeah, >> we're uh we're speaking with Sergey uh tomorrow morning. >> What should we ask him? >> Well, that's a good question. You should ask him what personally excites him about. >> I feel like that would be an interesting potentially unexpected answer. >> Zach, it's a shame with God. Thank you for your time. It's your third time or fourth time on the show this year. It's been nice to have you as a new friend of the show. >> It's been a long day for the boys. >> Andy's falling asleep over here.

>> I could keep going with you, [laughter] >> man. >> Long day. You know, when that caffeine spike hits and it just starts dropping, it's like, whoa, hang on for dear life, boys. >> Uh, Zack, maybe you could wrap us up. Closing thoughts. Day one of SmartCon. Um, and then we'll let you go. >> Yeah, I would say that if you think that oracles are price feeds, just take a look at chain links Twitter over the past 24 48 hours and kind of think conceptually what if you are a bank and you are an institution, what would you require from a smart contract? Would you want all of your trade data to be made publicly available and publicly viewable on chain? Do you want to be able to trade with sanctioned entities? Probably not as a as a regulated entity. So I I

think that if you look towards what institutions themselves are saying that they need >> Yeah. >> then you start to kind of understand why Chand is positioning itself and building itself in a certain direction. Like I that's one thing that that I think I would recommend people do more is look at what the institutions are saying. They're telling you what they want. And if you look at chain link like it >> looks similar. >> Yeah. It connects. It's one for one the same exact thing. So that that'd be my recommendation. >> Exactly. Thank you, man. >> Have a great day too. I'm sure you'll be busy. I'm sure you'll have talks and things you run around. So, you're a celebrity on all these parts. [laughter] >> Great chat. Thanks, guys.

>> Thanks. We'll see you next time. >> All righty, guys. Man, what a day one, huh? >> Great day. >> Glad we wrapped up with Zack. Got a little bit of a chain link sandwich going on. Why don't you scooch over a little bit? We'll close close this out. Um, >> chain link sandwich. >> Yeah, I mean, we ended off with Zack tonight. uh Sergey early tomorrow morning, first uh our first guest tomorrow. Uh I think we should ask Sergey what >> personally >> personally excites him about chain link. Uh I personally think that he's you know one of the one of the few very visionary founders obviously saw this from a very fairly early uh time. Um also look we we're talking about the boring

unsexy things that are now quite popular and becoming adopted in this industry. Yep. >> Well, no, look no further than chain link. I mean, literally >> absolutely getting adopted >> putting the plumbing together for this industry to handle the unsexy uh use cases like payments and rwas. It's not possible if we don't link see what I did there. >> You don't link these two worlds together. I'll tell you >> the offchain and the onchain world. You got to link them >> together.

>> Guys, thank you so much for day one. See you day two tomorrow. Much love. >> See you tomorrow. [music]