Rollup TV Live from Devconnect Day 2

Transcript

[music] [music] I'm about to [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> I'm above the [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. [music] You said it. finally said it. So, boys, boys, I'm boys. [music] We're boys. [music] [music] I'm about the [music]

>> [music] >> I'm about the [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> I'm the mother. [music] [music] Hola [music] [music]

[music] [music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're [music] on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys. [laughter] >> Intro is joke. >> To the moon. >> In case you guys couldn't tell, the rollup is not in a You might be in a bare market in the market if you're looking at the prices, but we're not in a bare market here at the rollup.

>> Boys, we're all down bad. Like, let's not lie. Like, why are we acting like we're not cooked? >> I don't know. We're in Buenosares. We had a fire asado. There was multiple bottles of wine. >> Robbie has not checked his portfolio in weeks. That's the reality here. >> If you don't check, I mean, you don't you don't you don't lose until you sell. Right. >> Right. Guys, that is not financial advice. You don't lose if you you're not losing money if you don't check your portfolio. >> Uh what's the story behind those glasses? >> Uh these are Oakley glasses from my baseball days. Uh back when I was a first baseman. They called me the crane on the pitching on the mound as well. I was the only six foot tall like 13y old and I was like probably 140 pounds. >> We had Alex Cutler on yesterday talking

about his shortstop days. >> Yes sir. >> Shout out to the baseball days. >> Dude, how about these viral uh these viral takeaway tweets? These things have been ripping. >> Key takeaways from Benadis. Privacy, privacy, privacy. Everything's got an accent now. Every big team we've spoken to is building institutional sales strategy. Amazing weather, beautiful nature. sense of a reality check hitting the entire industry. >> Speaking of nature, the Patagonian maras that showed up to our event, >> pretty electric, huh? >> I love them. I love animals and I love uh some local uh Argentinian nature. Yeah. >> Showing up for the boys.

>> Um I mean otherwise the EF has uh turned it around. I think there was a lot of hate going around. Ethereum and its rollups were combative and adversarial. Uh and that sentiment has totally shifted. Um, even though the fragmentation is still real, I it feels closer than ever to becoming solved. >> It definitely does. Um, guys, I have to make an announcement about our partner Yeet. So, Yeet, if you are watching the stream, guys, go on yeet, sign up with with the code rollup TV. Yes, that is rollup TV. We're giving away $500 at the end of the stream to one lucky participant. You go on yeet.com, sign up on with the code rollup TV, all one word. It's going to be a marathon

stream. Mando and the guys from Yeet are great. They've been awesome. Uh they've built a really cool product and we are excited to help them out. So guys, go to yeet.com, sign up with Rollup TV. We're going to do a spin at the end of the show after our mystery guest and we'll be giving away $500 on today's stream. Um, guys, be in the chat. Shout out to Ye. Thanks, guys. >> $500 is uh is that coming out of Leo's paycheck? >> No, that is coming directly from uh the per long trade on my Zcash position. >> Oh, that one's down bad. >> No, sir. There's no leverage here on Rollup TV, guys. Comfy and spot. I got a comfy and spot and trim mentality over the last two months. It's worked out well. Uh who knows what happens in the

short term. We're all down bad, bleeding out. I mean, it's like the guy on the on the ground at NFT uh NYC was like instantly nuking his board apes because like he has to fill his blur his blur loans. That's kind of where we're at today. >> Sounded a little skitso. Uh we've got a question in the chat. Can you go more in depth about the tweet about four chains bringing stage zero? >> Yeah, I mean uh right now there are four L2s that are stage zero. And I think I just think it's a big push to want to get these things to go to stage one or you know and eventually stage two. Uh so I think that's kind of a that was the purpose. I think a lot of the Ethereum chains are really moving in the right direction and and that's kind of where

we're trying to go. >> We I think it it is important to point out that stage zero, stage one, these are generalizations. Yeah. the most accurate indication of how decentralized an L2 is is if you look at the entire color wheel on L2B. Yeah. >> And and you know, we were talking to Luca Dono from L2B, founder, great guy, super smart. Yeah. >> Uh we're talking to him about lighter >> and how it is stage zero, but they've got I think five out of the six correct >> slots in the color wheel green. >> Correct. >> So there's still variety even amongst the stage zero category amongst the L2s in that category. There's still variety in how decentralized those are even though they're all stage zero.

>> Yeah. >> Um obviously we want to see these uh get to stage one and beyond. >> Yeah. >> Uh that's on the tech side. We're going to have tons of guests. >> So much I mean the lineup today is insane guys. Put your shades on. Go through it one more time. >> It's going to be insane. Uh we've got an epic lineup. We've got Orin the CEO of Starkware DeFi Dave Caponey Dankrad Stani Monae Ansgar. We've got Alex from ZK's Sync. We've got Mike from EtherFi, Cammy from Vetifiant, Paul from Morpho, Nick White, Quincis from Flashbots, Magic Newton, Sean Krock, and we've got a special mystery guest at the end.

We're going to jump into Koshi. We've got some prediction market plays to show you guys today live. Uh so we're going to hop in there now. And uh >> the first >> shades are off. >> Let's go full screen with the uh with the Kali markets. >> Um and uh Andy, I want to get your takes here. Yeah. cuz uh I think the doomer rant that uh you may have in store for us, >> oh my gosh, >> relates very nicely to this market. >> We are all down so bad. I mean, I placed like about seven grand of Cali bets on all upside for end of the year in Q1. They are all so cooked. Um I how low will Bitcoin get this year? 82K is the forecast, guys. I mean, the reality is I mean, this thing this thing looks bad. I mean, I I think we we we ought to get a

bounce here soon, but uh I don't know. Are we taking this below 80? Is uh is uh >> 41% chance below 80. >> Yeah. I mean, I I mean I I got to go no. I got to stand with the bulls. I don't think we go below 80 this year. >> Don't think we go below 80. >> No. I think that is a 2026 thing. So, I would smash no. >> Yep. I'm smashing no. >> So, so your take here is that we don't go below 80 No. >> this year. But you think 2026, Q1, Q2, we don't get a great first half of 2026. >> I don't know what we get, but I do anticipate that to go below 80 sometime next year. I don't think it happens this year. I think we've already had enough pain. We're down about 30% off off the highs from Bitcoin. I would smash no.

>> I think what's particularly interesting here is that even if Bitcoin does get into the 80s, it's going to be painful. It's going to be bloody, but as long as you're comfy in spot, Bitcoin's going to be around the next few centuries. >> So, what are we looking at here? Well, we got below 80, below 70, below 60. We know uh below 110, 100, 190, all these already happened. Yeah. >> And so now that, you know, we've crossed into the 80s. I think we've bounced. We're back low 90s now. But now it's a question of do we get into the next decade of these uh price. >> I say we go no. Let's take the no. >> I'm actually gonna skip this one. I think we go into the next one.

>> Okay. uh because this one potentially uh is more like it when we talk about how high Bitcoin is going to get this [snorts] year. I also think Bitcoin does, you know, stick in the 80s, maybe it breaks into the 70s. I, you know, it's a pretty kind of a toss up there. >> But I do think this is an easy win. >> Even if you get into the 80s, I think Bitcoin remains bullish. And I do think that if we get uh bounce back into the hundreds, uh I think that's where we're headed. >> All right. Well, I would take no here for the 92%. I think they're selling a dollar for 92 cents. I would smash no. >> You think smash no 130 or above? That one's kind of a no-brainer, isn't it?

>> Yep. I think they're selling a dollar for 92 cents here. I would take it. Let's take it. Um, >> so price. >> Shout out PMT showed us how to do the limit orders. >> Yes. Very ve very, very important for prediction marketing, especially when it's real time to do the limit orders. >> Especially when it's real time. So guys, I mean, look, I don't think we go below 80, but I do think that, and I definitely don't think that we go above 130 this year. I think that would be crazy. >> That would be insane. >> But it's, you know, anything's possible. I'd love to put on my uh my bullish cap. >> All right, so why don't we, you know, below 80. We think we just chop between 80 and 100. >> I don't even think we get to 80. I think we bounce here for a while into the end of the year and and we maybe get a Santa

rally. I'm taking I'm taking uh 61 cents uh all day uh to hit for 37 easy. Um so those are the Bitcoin bets. Uh how low will Ethereum get this year? This one's below 2250. >> No, >> I don't see that happening. I would take that below 2500. [snorts] >> Uh yes or no. That is tough. That is tough. Guys, we're here at Dev Connect. I would just take the safe. >> I'm taking no on below 2500. >> I like it. I like it. >> And I'm just doing I'm just bet sizing 100 bucks here.

>> Yep. I like it. >> Uh for at 62 here. >> I like it. I like it. >> Yeah. I doubt we get below 2500. I think we bounce. We don't get too too high. Uh I doubt we're getting above 5K. What else? We don't have a ton of other options here. We did get above 4750. >> Yeah, I know. Which is crazy. My my all my bets on this uh on the upside have just they're just getting whacked. As far as Q4, we're just thinking chop into the Q. >> I'm just thinking like bounce. I'm thinking we're Yeah, I think >> so. There's not not much to do here. This is going to impact a lot of what we're seeing. Uh they're pricing no change. >> Wow. I'm smashing a cut.

>> I agree. >> Unemployment came in uh today a.1% higher than expected. Jobs came in. >> Unemployment hit a four-year high. >> Yeah, I just I don't uh McDonald's is is having all these new applicants. I'm taking uh I'm taking what we that we'd get a 25 basis points cut. >> Mashing 25. >> I think that's uh >> Are you guys partnered with Koshi? Yep. They are a supporter. You can see their ticker down there. So, I would take Fed decision uh cut for sure. >> 25 basis point cut. That one's a heavy one.

>> Um >> last one we got uh last one that we have gets a little bit back to what we were doing two weeks ago, but I think it is very common. Yeah, >> you know, I I do feel compelled. >> Oh, we don't have the camera up, but guys, just know that we are holding a return of fundamentals shirt behind the scenes. >> Y >> Andy, what do you think? >> Uh, I do not think Bank of America is going to launch a stable coin this year. >> 2026 kind of market. >> I think they're selling uh a dollar for 95 cents here. I would be taking that >> all day. >> I'm just create create our own market here. 2026, will Bank of America launch a stable coin? Uh, I would give a 75% chance of no. So, >> okay, makes sense. >> So, I think they're selling a dollar for

for uh 95 cents and uh and yeah, I think that I think that's where we're at. >> All right, guys. Fun trades on Kali. Great times. >> We'll see where those ends end up towards the end of the year. We'll do some fun like kind of Christmas, New Year streams for that. Shout out to Kashi. Shout out to the prediction market super cycle. It is on. >> Shout out Kshi. prediction market super cycle is here. Below 80K, not gonna happen. Nope. Above 130K, not gonna happen. >> Uh below 2500 on ETH, not going to happen. Y and above 5K, not going to happen on ETH. >> Uh 25 basis point cut. That is our contrarian bet today for Coli. >> Yep. All right, guys. We're going to have a quick little break, but actually real quick, I'm gonna introduce our next

speaker. We've got Orin, the COO of Starkware, the co-inventors of ZK Starks. The privacy narrative is so on right now. Stark, Zcash near, there's this trifecta going on here that is really pulling this financial nihilism narrative and just ripping all of the floor of that and replacing it with this return to fundamentals. Guys, if you've seen us this week, the theme is return to fundamentals. This is where we are. We are live in Buenosades. Uh we'll be right back. Quick commercial break and we'll get started with our guest lineup.

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All right, >> Orin, welcome to the uh the studio. First guest of the day. We're live in Buenosades. >> Orin, COO of Starkware. Uh 25 years of industry experience in software development, uh physics, psychology, uh academic background. Man, what what is it what is it like? What's the atmosphere over at Starkware these days given the the privacy narrative is is uh certainly surging. >> Yeah. So yeah, a lot of things going quite well for us now. I think it actually started with Bitcoin before privacy. Yeah. Uh which is also something we've been focusing at for a while and it's like picking off right now. Uh and now with privacy which is also actually very good for Bitcoin as well. So uh the atmosphere at Starware and I think around the Staret ecosystem

in general is quite quite happy. >> Yeah. Yeah. How are you enjoying Bonosares? Is it your first time? >> It is my first time. Unfortunately, I don't have much time other than running between events and meetings here. So, I get to see the city just a little bit. Hopefully, in the weekend, I'll get some more chance. >> I I'm I'm curious why you think privacy is so hot this time, this era. You know, uh Ellie from Starkware was co-founder of Zcash. We've seen all of the hype around Zcash as of recently. Privacy is surging. Um, Bitcoin of course started this and you guys are leaders in the Bitcoin DeFi space and also co co-inventors of ZK Starks. What do you think is uh leading to the resurgence of privacy? We're calling this the return

of fundamentals. We'll talk more about that in a little bit. But I'm curious in your mind, what do you think is bringing back privacy into the fold? So I think it is you alluded to this. I think uh it is somewhat of maturing of I think of crypto in general because privacy I mean we've always very much believed in privacy. Our technology is is a great fit for both scalability and privacy and those are probably two of the main things that we're missing from blockchain to to gain wide adoption. Uh the good question is why now? >> Uh I think that's probably because some of the other things that were even more basically broken are now pretty much fixed. uh probably mostly scalability cost uh UX I can't say that it's fully fixed but it's like getting there uh and now when you see like more real world adoption and also institutionals

adoption coming through crypto privacy becomes like uh very very basic people look at that >> people need privacy to do stuff institutions to them it's table stakes they can't imagine everyone being able to see what they're doing >> talk a little bit closer to the mic please >> sure so uh I mean I from my perspective It should have been important years ago, but uh better late than never. >> Yeah. I mean, I think uh you know, we've seen this resurgence of Zcash as this as this asset as well as just this network. Lately, we we've been uh hearing about the quantum resistance problem. Vitalic addressed it uh I think yesterday put out something with regards to Ethereum's plans for going into 2028. Obviously, you know, this has been the biggest knock on Bitcoin for such a long time is

that it's not quantum resistant. Zcash does have some sort of, you know, quantum resistance uh capabilities. Uh, you know, it gets very deep, I'm sure. From your physics background and from your knowledge of studying this quantum resistance problem, what is the actual real nature of this issue? Like we hear about it all the time and it's often like this doomsday uh, you know, posting. what is the real stature of the of the quantum resistant problem in crypto? >> So the core of the issue is that a lot of today's cryptography uh could probably be broken by quantum computers. In some cases it's known how to do so. In some other cases it's not known but it's uh thought that it's possible to do so. uh and some of the

basically ECDSA which is the main signature scheme used by Bitcoin, Ethereum and a lot of uh crypto is one of those that actually could be broken by cryp by quantum computers. Now quantum computing has been uh progressing slowly uh and probably less slowly lately. Uh so it's coming. Uh the only question is when it's coming. Uh the nice thing about uh cryptography is that you have alternative forms of cryptography that are supposedly quantum secure. By the way, Stark, which is the basis of what we're doing is quantum secure. uh and and I think there are steps that could be taken even within Bitcoin and Ethereum to prepare for that so that with when it is broken they'll already be at the state where they actually can move to the other forms of cryptography that aren't breakable. >> Yeah. The the way I was describing this

to someone earlier from my limited understanding is that we we know that if quantum computing happens it's going to be a problem. >> Yeah. >> And and people are working on quantum computers because it could potentially lead to some really powerful impacts uh that are really positive. But it would it would lead to some of these catastrophic things in Bitcoin and these other currencies. The issue is we don't know if this is one year away, 5 years away, 50 years away. If it's 50, you know, we've got a lot of time to solve this, but if it's in the next couple of years, this becomes a really really pressing problem. I'm I'm curious in your perspective, how soon do you anticipate quantum computing becoming an issue for cryptocurrencies? >> So, I can't say I'm an expert on that. I don't think it's 50 years. uh it's probably not one year either but it

seems like uh it could happen within two or three years which is already alarmingly close to where we are and considering that uh for some of these cases you actually have to do stuff in advance to prepare >> uh I don't think we have a lot of time we should start months now >> really like what would be your approximation or estimation of time >> is going to happen >> yeah two years >> two three years yeah but what what is it that we can do to prepare is it using starts incorporating these into more protocol calls adding opt into Bitcoin. Are these the sorts of steps that we should be taking or is there another way that we should think about preparing [laughter] for things that could help? I think the major issue is that like pretty much all private keys right now in Bitcoin and Ethereum are using ECDSA and they're already out there. Uh so you

need to come up with some [clears throat] mechanism to enable users to migrate between this type of cryptography to something else. And for that you need to think of how do you do like how do you prepare beforehand before quantum computing is there to be able let's say to prove that you own a certain address at a time where it was yet unbreakable by quantum computers and then you could actually do a migration that won't be break I I've got a question that's a little bit deep in the weeds kind of a technical question my my understanding of Bitcoin and some of these other protocols that allow us to pay for things online with credit cards use RSA that's different from ECDSA could you help just separate and distinguish these two different cryptographic protocols. >> Again, I'm not an expert on

cryptography. Uh RSA is basically an encryption mechanism for for uh for synchronous communication where the ECDSA is a basically a public a key a public private key cryptography that enables you to generate a public key from your private key and then sign stuff with it. So it's like different branches of cryptography al together. >> Okay. So Orin, when you're looking at um the kind of spectrum of privacy within Starkware, within uh you know, I think Aztec just launched their ignition uh protocol yesterday, obviously Zcash, Monero. What is the current spectrum of privacy in blockchain today? Maybe we could start with like the far left as far as like public blockchain networks like Bitcoin and Ethereum and other chains and then all all the way to something which I assume would be like a Monero. But you know what does that

spectrum look like? >> Uh so it's quite varied. Uh and I think also looking forward like the solution space is is is very very big. It's a lot bigger than like every time we talk about this we we come up with some new ideas and new things that could be done. Uh I think Zcash is probably like the first public blockchain that has like truly private transactions in it. Uh and they they've been a while for they've been there for a while. Uh so they have a resurgence now. I hope they're going to be used a lot more extensively as well. Uh, one of the issues I think though with Zcash is not the privacy. Privacy is actually quite good there is that you can't do that much on Zcash.

It's it's a similar uh problem to what we have on Bitcoin that we're trying to address as well where it's like it's a great network. Bitcoin is a great asset, but you can't really build a real economy on top of that because it's not programmable. Uh, the scale is not there. Uh, the cost's not there. uh in Bitcoin the privacy not there in Zcash it is but uh you need basically to to bring all these stuff together for people to build actually usable usable stuff now one of some of the projects you mentioned before vary in terms of how they relate to uh to compliance in a way >> uh and even there there's a big solution space but uh uh by and large you could either try and pro provide like absolute privacy by which anybody could do anything without anybody being able to see which will probably make that

non-compliant in most places, >> right? >> Uh uh on the other hand, you could try and bake in some compliance mechanism and those are there's a wide variety of potential ones. They could be quite complex. Uh so Monero, I think like went down one extreme. Uh Zcash is maybe somewhere in the middle. Uh and there are there are ones right now including some apps that are being launched on Starknet such as privacy pools that actually bake in compliance right into the protocol. >> Yep. And the activity on Starknet is booming and this is taking some people by surprise. you guys are now top five in chain in daily top five chain in daily revenue uh >> and growing >> and growing. Yeah. So what what's leading to this growth and where do you anticipate that this goes? >> So I think most of it is coming from uh

from our focus on BTC fight. So we're basically trying to uh provide Bitcoiners with a good place where they can actually do stuff with their Bitcoin. Uh like I said before, Bitcoin is is an amazing asset. Uh unfortunately most of what has been done with it so far is either just hodddling or on centralized exchanges right and centralized exchanges are somewhat an anti-thesis to to you know to bitcoin and and to crypto and to blockchain in general. >> Uh and some of this was because like there were no good options and that's what we're trying to solve. So what we're doing right now is we're enabling bitcoiners to uh bridge their bitcoin to startet and then to access a wide variety of options starting with uh with staking. So where we've actually opened uh stark net staking which basically

secures the network's decentralization not just to stark but also to bitcoin uh which also provides people with a good place to pretty uh with pretty low risk actually get some yield on their bitcoin and then uh the more uh the less risk averse users could actually use that bitcoin to loop staking or to do defy. There are a variety of options already live. There are some that are coming. I I think a lot of the increase in metrics that we've seen is because of that and that's only been launched less than two months ago. >> Yep. Yep. And so there's also this kind of trifecta going on with uh Starkware, Near Intense, and Zcash that's kind of like created this like flywheel a bit.

I'm not sure if it's that correlated onchain like directly, but there it maybe it's just narrative driven, but it was it also feels like there's some sort of like onchain happenings here. What is that trifecta that's happening there? So onchain I don't think anything is happening yet. Near intense is not yet live on start net even. >> Okay. >> Uh we are close to the Zcash team like so Ellie is a co-founder there and and like uh we're talking to the team about a bunch of things that we could do together but right now I think it's more uh of a narrative. >> Anything that you could allude to as far as what we could even if you're not speaking on on behalf of Starkware, what would you personally like to see between the Zcash ecosystem, quantum resistant money and starknet enabled Bitcoin privacy? So there could be multiple things. Uh some of them is like like

stark technology and our provers uh can be used uh by the Zcash community and also by other communities to do stuff even unrelated to to stark net and to starkware. Uh it's open source. They they don't necessarily even need us to do this but we could gladly help. And then there are things that could be a lot more uh uh combined like things >> sounds interesting Orin. So directly >> alluding to things here but yeah I >> directly prove Starks on Zcash. >> It's uh theoretically it's an option. Yeah. >> Okay. And so the maybe just if you could get a little bit deeper into the tech there. >> How does how does proving on Stark network now? Is it a matter of like paying uh for ZK proofs using Stark tokens? So right now so starket right now is an Ethereum layer 2 right

>> it's it's a it's a Zola we're probably the first general purpose eco roll up on Ethereum we just celebrated four years to mainet this week >> actually we had uh before stark net we had stark x which was probably the first roll up on ethereum it was a couple years and whatnot right >> it was it was basically a scalability layer for exchanges so we had a bunch of exchanges running on top of us some of them were per some of them were spots >> uh a lot of people know the deck the dexes they don't necessarily know that they've been running on our technology was ser dydx and mutable a bunch of >> others I think >> yeah is still running yeah >> uh yeah some are still kick is still live we still have a few instances running there >> we go

>> uh so so it's a it's a zk roll up on top of ethereum >> we do have a sense of how we actually want to make also layer 2 basically a trustless layer two a fully trustless layer two on top of bitcoin >> now at least the way we know right Now for this to happen, we need bit bitcoin to reenable opcat which is this operator that was once part of the scripting language and they uh disabled it. >> Uh Zcash is quite similar to >> to uh Bitcoin. So if they do something of that sort or something equivalent that enables us to actually run uh a roll up on top of it, then it's possible. In general, what you need from a layer 1 in order to be able to run a layer 2, you need to be able to deploy or run some sort of verifier on that

network because the the way a rollup works is you generate the proofs for all the blocks on layer 2 and then you submit that proof to layer 1 and you verify it on layer one. So you need to run a verifier on the layer 1. Yes. >> Which we now do on Ethereum. >> We don't yet know how to do on Bitcoin. If they enable OPCAT, we we believe we do know how to do on Bitcoin. Maybe research will progress even further. will be able to do it even without opcats, but the same could be done in Zcash, >> right? There there's a verifier on Zcash that could verify ZK proofs >> if there is a ver I mean right now >> there's not yeah >> there's not one that we yeah there's not one uh what they have right now is basically that the users generate snark proofs for their transactions and send

that to the network and they are able to verify that just those specific types of proof >> or I've got a more kind of a design choice question for you with regards to Cairo VM obviously one of the first kind of nonem rollups for Ethereum um if you could go back four four years from now, would you have launched Starkware as a EVM L2 or are you con do you have so much conviction in Cairo and a programming language that you you firmly believe that up till now and and in the future that this is the right uh choice for your execution layer? >> Yeah. So I I do believe it is the right choice. I think longer term it's very clear to me that this is the right choice. Uh shorter term it's more of an issue but the more we progress the more

we are closer to the longer term. Uh the reason we went down the chairo path is basically we wanted to optimize uh the VM for proving. >> Yeah. >> So Ethereum optimizes for for different things and then has limitations that we don't have that we didn't want to carry over to our system. Now longer term we believe this is going to be quite important because scale is going to skyrocket. You're going to need to max out whatever you can get from there and cost is uh the other side of the same equation. And the more tailored you are towards what you're actually doing or and limited by the actual limitations that you have, the better. >> Exactly. >> There are down downsides to that. Of course, we felt them throughout the year. We feel him a bit less now actually. Yeah. >> Uh but I do think it was the right

choice. >> Yeah. I mean, I just feel like like like near intense like took Zcash from being like a silo and kind of like allowed it to interoperate now, which I think is like probably uh been a part of its recent uh run. But uh you you guys were always interoperable with other L2s. Uh but but from a development perspective, you know, developers had to be really really confident in building on Starknet and that actually allowed you to build like a much more sticky >> uh community because unlike other L2s or L1's that are EVM based, you can just you know take your smart contracts and say all right guys see you later we're going to go here and then you know there's so much kind of churn but because of that you know a more social layer impact of your uh of your design choice is that there's there's much less

churn of builders. That is true. I think it's the same point like it has disadvantages and advantages. This is definitely one of the advantages. I think if you look at the Starknet community, it's it's one of the best communities out there. It's very committed. It's much less uh mercenary than I think a lot of the other roll-ups out there. Uh part of this started not just because of Cairo but because the early members of the community were drawn in by the the tech and by the promise of the tech and they were very strong developers and very strong like people in general and and and they built some of actual some of the infrastructure we currently use. So we are at Stark where we built some of it but some of the community built major parts of the of the system as well of the network and thus they they

rightfully feel that the network is actually partly theirs as well. So it started from there but even moving on it uh it drew people who are very much convinced and and they're a lot more sticky like you said. >> Yeah. Yeah. Most definitely. Um when it comes to this uh kind of dynamic of generating revenue, you know, Robbie said you guys are top five chain currently and daily revenue. Um you know, you know, I'd be you know, it's not about the the price of the token or the token, but it's been a rough run for stockholders over the last six to 12 months. people are really joyful to see hyperlquid come out have these buybacks and and um you know we've actually seen in this you know latest people are calling it a bare market we don't really you know we're looking on a 10 to 20 year time horizon here it's it's all

just kind of ups and downs hyperlid has held up extremely well just in the short term and I think it's probably because of a lot of that idea when it comes to you know the the revenue generation of starknet going forward how do you plan to or how are you at least thinking about it either from a personal perspective or a starkware perspective to create a a kind of robust flywheel for STRK and just generally the Starknet ecosystem. You know, I'm not asking for specifics. I'm not asking, you know, for financial advice here. Just like how are you thinking about that because it is now something that the market is demanding versus a year ago the market wasn't really demanding this kind of behavior from teams. >> So, I think there are two main parts to that. So one of them is just getting more revenues to to the network to

Starknet and to the apps running on the network. So the metrics look very good right now. They're growing growing quite significantly. I'm pretty sure they're going to get continue to grow. A lot of this is a result of uh uh a lot of efforts on of ours and of other people in the Starket ecosystem of the Stark Foundation. And and that's very important because like the more people use it, the more people find the network valuable, the more businesses that actually generate revenue that are on the network, the better it is for for the ecosystem as a whole. The second part is how do we drive at least part of that uh upside back to the network. Mhm. >> Now the network could be uh uh uh the sequencers, it could be the token holders, there could be various mechanisms and we are considering various mechanisms but we do want uh at

least some of so with the network revenue this is a lot easier. Uh what we also are looking in is trying to get uh the major apps or perhaps all apps to actually share some of their revenue also with the network. >> Yeah. >> Uh I can't yet announce anything. We're thinking about several options, but it is in the works. >> Orin, thank you for your time, man. It's been a pleasure. >> I got one more question. The question everyone's asking. When stage two, >> uh, so there is a there's something a bit problematic there. I mean, we are very keen on decentralization and we've been working like a large part of our engineering team has been working on decentralization for like over a year now. Uh, by the way, we are right now deployed with a decentralized version.

uh which currently we're running all instances of the sequencers but right now Starknet mainet is run by a decentralized protocol generating blocks and voting on them. >> Very cool. >> And we have the next steps coming uh in the coming quarters. This doesn't necessarily fit the current definitions of of stage two even though it's probably a lot better than the current definition of stage two. So I'm not even sure the current definition is that clear. So we'd be very happy to get there >> though I'm not sure that it's well defined enough and and even correct. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, also it's it's it's a responsibility thing. It's something that you got to be very thoughtful about and methodical with, right?

>> Yeah. There's a time and a place that it makes sense to do. So, Orin, thank you so much for coming on. Absolute pleasure. >> Great partners at Starkware and uh we look forward to more conversations soon. >> Cheers. Have a great rest of your week. >> Thank you. >> All right. >> Boom. Guys, the uh the privacy trifectas in the starknet near Zcash that entire it's we've gone from financial nihilism memecoin super cycle to this actual return to fundamentals guys we're just going to keep harping on it. If you're not returning to fundamentals then well what are we doing here guys? So uh we've got double guest up next DeFi Dave Ben from Cap Money. Uh we're going to get them in here take a quick break and we'll be right back.

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billion dollars transferred. Go to relay.link. >> All right, guys. Welcome to the studio. Good to have you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> How's Benitis treating you? >> It's beautiful here. This is my first time. I can see why it's >> What? It's your first time, dude. >> Yeah, it's crazy. >> I know. I know that. >> It's funny. They call it the Paris of the South of South America. I'm like, "Oh, they should have ECC here next year." >> So nice. >> At this point, they keep going south. So, >> yeah. My buddy calls it his favorite European city. >> I've had so much beef. I feel the cholesterol running through my >> every night. Steak, red wine. Steak red. >> It's Yeah. How was Eth uh Floripa, by the way?

>> Oh, Etho was great. Uh it was such a vibe. It was more of a unconference than anything. >> Um >> like you know how FIA is and so they they set it up really well. It's funny because I remember last like I think a year and a half ago I tweeted like these two conferences need to happen. Eth Bushwick and Euripa like I don't need to explain myself and now they both happened and so they did a great job. There's a really good community of builders on ino. So >> I was a bit worried about you blowing up our spot. >> The thing is yeah here [laughter] we are talking about it though. >> Yeah I know. >> All day like thousands of viewers. >> It's so over. Yeah. Don't go to Florida. It's awful.

>> It's actually pretty terrible. Yeah. >> You you were there too then? >> No I wasn't there. It's providing shareholder value in New York. [laughter] >> All right, guys. Catch us up to speed. I think we had Dave on maybe three months ago or so on uh Worldup TV. You guys had been I think there was an announcement uh and just general progress. What's what's happening Q3 and Q4? Where you guys at? >> Yeah. Well, today we just went live with Wisdom Tree. So, >> let's go. >> Yeah. WTGXX there, Money Market Fund. their covenance money fund is live on cap and now those users convince CUSD with WTGXX and this is significant these institutions like they have certain compliance requirements uh in order to um in order to be in line with their with everything and so >> these are permission assets you can't

integrate so they have a fund called WTXX not a sexy name um and all these pension funds use it to earn Tibbo yield and they've done it since like the 80s right and what [snorts] we're doing is we're connecting all of those pension funds, all of those users to CAP via Wisdom Tree. Okay? >> And it was months of, you know, convincing them that CAP is compliant, that it's safe, the smart contracts are okay, >> and we did it. And now we're fully connected to all of that user base. >> How did you guys do it? Did you study up yourselves on compliance standards? Did you hire new people that knew this business? What what was the process like for you guys? Because you guys are crypto native, right? But now you're you've got an institutional strategy. I >> worked at City Bank.

>> Yeah, I worked at City Bank. sort of like compliance regulatory um >> uh what's it called? Qualification. >> Um but we have lawyers. So they they help us out. >> Yeah. I mean I put out this tweet. It was like uh if you don't have an institutional sales strategy in 2026, you're completely cooked. >> We were at SmartCon two weeks ago and it felt like I mean it was all finance, you know. It was very very it there's a whole bull run going on over there while like with the builders and stuff the it's a bit different down here. Um so connecting these two worlds is important for you guys. What what is the reason why um you know Wisdom Tree wants to get involved? Why these funds want to come on chain? Is it is it a distribution play for them? Is it a is it an access game? What is kind of the thought

process as to like the unique value that CAPS is bringing? >> Yeah, it's it's about distribution, right? So if you're a wisdom tree, uh, Fidelity, Pranka, Templeton, these guys we're working with, um, you want more AUM because you make, uh, you make yield, uh, and then you can take a spread on all that. Um, but T bills are not so hot anymore. And as the Fed will keep cutting rates, yeah, these products will be less and less attractive. Uh, and with inflation at 3%, the closer we get to 3% in risk-free rate, the worse it will be um to hold T bills as a form of yield. What we do is we can give you marginal yield maybe let's say 50% more than table yield uh but we don't give you any risk because at least any risk of yield generation because we're fully insured >> and so for these uh very conservative um

you know yield actors that are already depositing to wisdomree this is a very safe way to get into crypto >> you talk more about the insurance model that's not something that I've heard about it seems very unique like how who is the insurer how does that process work uh behind the scenes >> so we built this thing called assurity bond. Um I probably a lot of people haven't heard about it but it's similar to a credit default swap. And so um anytime somebody wants to generate yield on our stable coin these institutions say I want to generate yield on stable coin they need to provision a credit default swap um and if they were to lose money then we can um sort of call that insurance. So imagine if Athena like the Athena Labs team was uh taking money from depositors and doing their basis trade imagine if all of that was fully

insured 100%. That's kind of how CAB works. >> Okay. And so we had the Grove team on. They've gone from like zero to like two billion in TVL. It's been insane the last couple months. I don't know how competitive, etc. It is, but they're focusing on like these AAA CLLLOs's as their underlying yield product because of the same reason that you know Ben has said about the basically TBO yield being compressed. Are you guys also looking to like expand the product suite? Obviously, this is like a step in that direction. You've got this, you know, additional yield that you've mentioned. How do you guys think about continuing to build real yield for your users knowing that the rates are likely uh to keep dropping?

>> Yeah, I like to I've said this on the last stream we had, but I like to call CAP the infinite canvas of yield. Okay, beautiful. >> You aren't locked into one strategy and you aren't dependent on a group of people moving around to different strategies. CAP is a self-inforcing system that allocates capital according to the highest performers in the protocol. all the all our borrowers that opt into the protocol, whether they're regulated Wall Street uh funds, uh market makers, trading shops, um they all have unique strategies, they all have unique edge uh that they bring to the table and as long as they partner with the resters who act as the shity bond as Ben said and perform. It's the users that benefit the most because they're always getting the highest yield and they're fully protected the entire time. >> Yeah.

>> Do you guys use iigen layer for restaking? >> We use iigen layer and symbiotic. Um and in the future we'll use all the other shared security markets like Babylon, JTO, kernel because at the end of the day um any of these assets like cryptocurrency assets are very good to provide shy bonds because they have a very low risk-free rate and as a result um they can be used to insure US dollar loans while providing a competitive return for them to take that risk. >> So the the restakers are underwriting uh the the firms uh the partners as you mentioned and these are guys that are in the cap stablecoin network. It's a group of select partners uh take part in CUSD's collateral management yield generation.

>> Yeah. >> And the resters are underwriting uh like wisdom tree and who else is in this group. >> So we have two things right. First is our reserve and the reserve has tibo stable coins and they have uh money market funds. The money market funds come from Franklin Templeton Black Fidelity etc. And the stable coins will come from like circle tether etc. And um if you're holding CSD you can always redeem it for that. Super simple. In the back end, we let institutions borrow those reserves. So we have Susuhana that's never borrowed onchain ever before. They're doing it with us. Flow traders, which is a publicly traded company, we're announcing that soon. A little bit of outreities that don't really participate in crypto and now they're borrowing from us uh in order to share some of the yield with our users.

>> And so it it seems like a onedirectional flow here like we get these institutional products, right? and then we provide them to the current existing onchain users or whatever the that expanding pie is of people that want yield onchain. What about the other way? Like are we are you then able to say um you know to other asset managers, capital allocators in New York City, right? Like hey, okay, so we've got this Wisdom Tree product on chain, the settlement time is far better, there's better yield. So not just like, hey, you know, crypto users already, but going then with this product that you've brought on chain and bringing it to other institutions, is that kind of part of the strategy? How are you guys thinking about that kind of flow?

Well, also the institutions are more receptive to this kind of a play because right we've always cared about safety. Even though a lot of times in crypto we get in in the groove of bull market and we want as much yield as possible. Uh we go to a family office and say hey you can have 50% more than Tibos and you're not going to take that much more risk because he's fully insured. They love that, right? Um because they care about capital preservation over everything. Uh and so yeah, it's been great being in New York because there are a lot of folks that kind of resonate with this uh pitch. >> Institutions love cap. Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah, they do. Um, you guys have coined this uh type three stable coin. Uh, we talk a lot about stable coins. We think it's a stablecoin super cycle. What is a type three stable coin?

>> Well, maybe you can explain. >> Yeah. So, we created this framework. It was actually published in the Stanford blockchain club journal of type three stable coins. It's basically a spectrum of security and you go from type zero to type three. Type zero are indogenous stable coins. So those are stable coins that get yield within themselves are relying on another system and that's think of like Arrow or CRV think of as CDPs. They're great but they can only scale so much. So we haven't seen any major stable coins of that design. Then you have type one stable coins which I like to call one team one strategy. Um these are usually uh similar to just tokenized hedge funds. And with those, uh, they're simple, which is great, but the alpha can only last so long with them, and the security guarantees of what happens if something goes wrong

aren't really there. Type two, I like to say, is diverse team, diverse strategy. So now you have like a DAO or committee, and they're deciding on which strategies to put into. It's a lot more adaptive than type one, but at the same time, uh, you still have people deciding and people are infallible, like what if there are conflicts of interest and all that stuff. So that's imperfect. uh capper type three and we actually like to model ourselves uh after Ethereum. So in the same way Ethereum is this like infinite garden like you can go and build any application you want. Um the design space is endless. We do the same thing with CAP but it's for yield and so the design space for yield strategies is basically limitless as well. Uh and it's a self-inforcing system that's backed by our credible financial guarantees of these shy bonds and restaking the same

thing here. Yeah. And it's all these different strategies plugging in and out. And this can scale much much more than all the other stable coins previously. So we're the first type three stable coin. Um and we are really leading the way in that. >> Yeah. So let's kind of zoom out into you know 2026, 2027, 2028. Thinking about where the space is going. We're very clearly in this like institutional adoption phase. I mean it's kind of funny like back in the day we'd be like we're gonna dump on these guys. [laughter] um successfully did that but like still waiting for them you know for for them to keep you know [clears throat] allocating etc. >> Um and so like the brand of crypto is shifting in a big way. I mean I think like this year very clearly because of the regulatory regime because of Trump because of uh even like products like

hyperlquid forcing the market to change like there's just a lot of factors that have led to change this year. I'm curious like what your guys' vision is for you know broadly the stable coin tokenization institutional adoption space over next two three four five years and then like where you want cap to be in that puzzle right we we just came back from smartcon as I mentioned and it feels like the table's being set right like there are there are you know wisdom tree is ready to be captured and brought on chain and someone's going to do it >> captured >> right exactly [laughter] right and so if you're not and again it comes back to that if you don't have an institutional sales strategy, you're in trouble. And so next two, three, four years in this in this specific kind of like institutional space of crypto and then how kind of you see cap fitting.

I'd like to hear from you both on this. >> Yeah, I think you know we say there's DeFi and Trafy in the future. It would just be fine. >> Yeah, there's no more Treadfi. We don't say the word Trafy. >> Yeah, there's really a convergence. You know, not just with stable coins, but you see it with exchanges as well. Like whether it's like Robin Hood or Kraken, they're all going towards like the same design. Uh, and where I see the future and where Cap fits into it is you're going to have thousands of stable coins out there and they're going to be unique to different jurisdictions. They're going to be unique to different distribution channels. I mean, look, Starbucks, Amazon, Apple, uh, whoever, all these big companies, they have distribution. They can all come out with their own stable coin, their own T bill stable coins. There's not much differentiating between them. They're

all the same thing just branded differently. What CAP is going to be is the singleness of money, the shelling point where all these different stable coins can come in. They can be exchanged one of one and as Ben said they can earn this nominal yield on top this 50%. Which might not sound like a lot but it really does move the needle for these institutions. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean there's uh it's no coincidence that our leads and our investors are trifly players. Uh we >> don't use that word anymore. >> Uh sorry our financial players. Yeah. >> So [laughter] you don't see that the normal VCs uh lead uh our rounds like Franklin Templeton has never led a stable coin deal before. They led one with us. you know, IMC trading, flow traders, Khana, this is our cap table.

These are the people that we surround ourselves with because we think that, you know, we're not competing with Etheina. We're not competing with, you know, name your, you know, cryptonative stable coin. We're competing with Apollo. We're competing with Hamilton Lane because we think we can provide this diversified yield that private credit has created, but do it better because smart contracts are better technology. Uh, and that's the kind of fight we want to be doing. >> Yeah. Beautiful. Um I want to ask about a topic with regards to stable coins. So we've had uh people on either side. We had Luca from Mzero and then we had uh Hanan from Codeex uh which is this this FX this forex type of uh rebuilding on decentralized rails. Uh it's such a large market that it it could potentially prove really really

difficult to unwind the existing system and rebuild it on blockchain rails. Um, this becomes more and more important as we get regional stable coins. Um, obviously US dollar denominated stable coins are most prevalent now. CAP is building in the US dollar denomination lane right now, but we're expecting this this whole pie to grow. Curious, what is your take when it comes to forex and regionalbased denominations of stable coins? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I just want to say we're we're really changing the game for these other um currencies because yeah, we're a stable coin on the dollar, but think about the shorty bond market. We're using these alternative assets to underwrite loans of US dollar because the overcolateralized rate of the dollar versus the undercolateralized rate of the dollar that delta is bigger than the

premium of these alternative assets. And so we can give higher yield to the Japanese yen, Singapore dollar, Hong Kong dollar than they would ever have otherwise. In fact, if you look at the past, you know, 10 years of the Japanese carry trade, we do better than that. And so, um, even if it takes time to unwind, if I can tell a Japanese private credit fund that I can give you more yield for taking the same risk, they're going to move over because people want to make money. >> Yeah. Yeah. Guys, um, we're building a Dev Connect playlist on Spotify. Uh, so I just going to pull it up and, uh, I'd like you guys to think about what song you feel needs to be added to this playlist. Um, so just, you know, give it a second, give it a thought. You know, I know it's a very serious question. >> Um, and yeah, I would just like to get

the name of your song. >> Um, >> we're in Argentina. >> We are. >> So, you have to have something by Anitos Veres. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> It's Chile. >> Chile. I'm the neighbor of this uh of this country and Anitos Veres is like one of the famous Argentinian >> Anitos Ves. >> Yeah. Anito little green men [laughter] >> most [clears throat] concito. I like >> Boliviano. See Dave. >> Um I'm gonna go with our neighbors up north in Brazil. You should have gelato on your playlist. >> Yes.

>> That's good. That's good. >> Yeah. Keep it South America. >> How does one spell that? >> Um >> Jerto. It's like G A I L B E R T O >> and then >> he's the quintessential Brazilian artist. So >> actually learn Portuguese because I like >> I like this [laughter] kind of things. >> Uh what's the what's the song of choice? Do you have a do you have a song of choice? >> I think I saw this guy in FIPA playing live. >> Really? >> He's he's he's very old now, right? Yeah. >> Yeah. He's like an OG like kind of like slow reggaton type of not regaton like reggae, right? Like kind of chill like Bob Marley. Uh, >> it's a complicated, you know, it's not an easy question because

Oh, no. Yeah. Abbraso. That's the one. >> There we go. >> Yeah, that's like the quintessential song about Rio and Brazil. It's such a vibe. >> Beautiful. Beautiful. >> Um, >> we're going to be jamming this. We'll we'll post it afterwards. You guys can uh look at the entire playlist compiled after all our guests. And guys, we have a we have a gift for you guys as well uh for coming out and showing up. Um we're returning to fundamentals. So, our big uh our big kind of uh you know, slogan these days is return to fundamentals. >> Um we'd like to hear what this means to you guys personally, right? Two OGs in DeFi. I mean, we met you guys probably 2019, 2020.

>> Yeah, it's been a while. >> You know, we've came a long way as an industry. What does this mean to you guys? Uh tell us. Uh, I think it's building in the spirit and ethos of c of like true crypto, true decentralization. Um, building products that last and building products that care about users and put put them first. Yeah, >> I mean for me it's no inflationary shenanigans. So nowadays we have so many, you know, farms and people spending tokens like they were, you know, cheap. And uh, for cap, most of our TV is not incentivized. is us going to uh family office and liquid funds and pitching them on cap and then saying you know what this is good for us and they're using us without incentives and I think if we want to get anywhere as an industry that's how we have to do it >> yeah and this is from the D5 faithful to

a lot of people in Korea a lot of people in Turkey a lot of people >> Yeah we have a lot of Koreans pitching us >> yeah when you're at in Korea >> yeah we were pitching all these kos and people are like yeah we're already farming [clears throat] >> that's probably my number one response when I like tell them about cap like oh yeah we're already farming that I'm like oh we're we're doing a They already say we're already farming that. They say they like Franklin Templeton and they said, "Do you work for Defi Dave?" [laughter] >> Yeah, that's the trifecta. >> Gentlemen, thanks for coming out, man. >> Thank you so much. Pleasure. >> Yeah. Thanks, man. >> Great to have you guys. Nice to see you guys continuing building. Uh, thank you guys. >> Cheers.

>> We'll see you next time. >> Um, guys, we're going to keep it rolling. Quick break and we'll be right back. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not [music] your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. [music] Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io.

Go anywhere on chain instantly with Relay. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to call sheet.com to trade [music] today.

Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully >> guys. [snorts] It's all over. Um it's just it's just over. Um this is my doomer rant. Uh for those who are, you know, looking at Trading View today, uh guys, yes, we're down so much money in the last two days, we are we are literally sitting here ripping eight hours a day of filming, editing, post-production meetings. We're doing it for the love of the game. I mean, we we are down more in the last three days than we can even imagine. I haven't looked at my my portfolio. I'm honestly scared. Um, you know, Mert's been saying either this is, you know, you're being very emotional and this is the bottom or

uh, you know, it's all over. Guys, I get it. You know, it can feel like it's all over at times. Sometimes not checking your portfolio helps, guys, but it's not all over. But, man, it looks bad. I mean, today we had an Ethereum DAT sell a ton of ETH. Uh, I mean, if if Jensen Hong wasn't out there drinking beers in Korea with his boys and crushing earnings, we we'd be in trouble, guys. I get it. It sucks. Um, you know, a lot of us are heavily invested into this space that we log into every day. I would I would want it no other way. Uh, but guys, it looks pretty bleak out there right now. But here's the good news.

Here's the good news. SmartCon last week in New York City, there is a full-blown institutional bull run happening. It is absolutely dialed right now. Those guys do not care about the price action of today. They do not care. right now in Argentina in Dev Connect there is a massive vibe with the builders of actually building something real like these two developments at the same time while juxtaposed in terms of their their kind of like client and who is uh a part of these communities they're actually extremely strong together so look I mean I think the question you got to ask yourself is is a 30 to 50% draw down from here on your portfolio more painful man missing the upside of a potential 30 to 50% or higher move in the future. And so like for me and for all of you

listening, it it's really all about uh your own personal portfolio. And I think that's that's one way to think about it, guys. It sucks. I mean, we are out here just ripping, grinding. Have barely been able to even check the markets. And I just know that I'm going to go home and I'm going to be down more than I can even fathom. So, let's stay strong, keep building, and uh you know, the market will will do its thing, but trust me, we are down bad. And just want you guys to know that I'm in this boat with you. So, how about how about our first two uh conversations there, Rob? I mean, look, you're acting like you're not down bad, but you are down bad. I think everyone's gota um realize that price is um the y axis, right? If you're look like think literally think about a

chart, right? On the y- axis you have price and on the x- axis you have time. And we talk a lot about price, you know, we look up, we look down, like we're we're looking at price most often when we're looking at the charts, but we can't forget about the x- axis. The x- axis is time, and it's arguably more important than price. And I think what is often left out of the conversation is time horizon. You just brought up a good point. Everyone's portfolio is is very different. Everyone's got different goals in their lives with with respect to their own personal financial situations. Uh that's going to come with yeah different perspective than it looks at the price but also different perspective when it looks at the time horizon at which you're trying to construct your portfolio. So I think my recommendation to to people would be um stay patient, zoom out and be very

thoughtful with the time frame at which you're looking at your portfolio. I think it's okay to think that we're both in a we're in a bull market and a bare market at the same time. That might sound really really weird, but when you're looking at time horizons, you can think that we're in a bare market for Q4, right? The next three months. Yeah. But you could also think that we're in a decadel long bull market. And maybe that's just cope. Maybe that's just making me feel better about my portfolio as we're watching it go down. [laughter] But I I really do think that there is some truth to the different time horizons, the different time scales at which you're constructing your portfolio because when you're looking at spot trading, you it's not just about getting the direction right, you have to get the timing right, too. And there's there is

two dimensions to this game. Um, well, I just feel like and and I'm going to, you know, kind of go on this, you know, uh, you know, a response to you as well as just this general idea here is that there's a reality check that is hitting the vibe at DevConnect in Buenosirus. Builders, investors, venture capitalists, the there's this reality check that is smacking in the face. People are very very oriented around the core uh, ideologies of our space. They want to build things with real revenue. They want to build products that actually generate fees that that create value for token holders. Um, >> we just heard Benjamin talking about providing shareholder value in >> Well, like dude, like the the reality check of the space is that you can't just show up, launch a project, and expect the market to care. We can blame

Pump Fund for making it so easy to launch a coin. Sure, we can blame venture capitalists for funding all these different uh projects and basically just rotating out of them so aggressively just to, you know, try to basically get a good DPI, but the reality is the market you you have to give people a damn good reason to buy your token in 2025 and 2026. You need at the bare minimum, you need a likable story, a trajectory for real revenue, a uh a economic modeling uh outlook that is actually transparent that everybody can see. You need to have proper accounting and you need to actually have a real product that actually is used in the market. And like it's not 2019 anymore. It's not 2021 anymore. And I firmly believe we're going from this

kind of memecoin super cycle nihilism era into a more you know real adoption institutionally led era. And frankly there's going to be a lot of winners but there's going to be a lot of fat trimmed. And I feel for the first time at a major conference especially with builders that everyone recognizes that that this kumbaya kind of stuff is not exactly where we need to be. There's a bit of a fire under Ethereum's ass right now when it comes to some of the biggest and best builders that we've heard from and it's honestly a really good development. I think the best example of what you're talking about is Dankr leaving Ethereum and joining Tempo. And think about the compelling story that Tempo is telling and stable coins are telling. And you think back to what

Ethereum was six months ago and the kumbaya that was happening. And it's no surprise that there was some uh intellectual flight out of Ethereum and into some other stable coin projects. >> I don't know. I Yeah. Okay. >> Why do you think Dank left? I just for there's just it's a new opportunity. It's a it's I mean we'll we'll ask Yeah, he's coming on next. Yeah, DR is coming on next, guys. But yeah, I mean new opportunities, better greener pastures. I I I think it's less of an Ethereum thing and more of like a uh go skating to where the puck is going type of thing.

>> Right now, uh there's a lot more stable coins on Ethereum than Tempo. >> That's for sure. >> So, I I I do think that revenue is really really important. The only counter example to this is Bitcoin and Zcash. >> Yeah. Uh Zcash has been able to get monetary premium which is really really fascinating. >> Well, for now, >> right? >> Yeah, for now. Um we'll see how long it lasts and how long it sticks. But Bitcoin and Zcash are the only coins that have this m money feeling. Bitcoin is money uh digital gold, right? Digital money. Zcash is digital private money. So, it's got it's got a value proposition. Everything else needs revenue. Even ETH. ETH continues to struggle with this to this day. Do you value it based on its collateral value? >> Everything else needs revenue.

>> Do you value ETH based on its revenue? Um, uh, Ethereum needs to pick and I think the longer we kind of tow the line between the two, the more ETH, uh, will continue to struggle, but I do think the Ethereum Foundation has realized this. I think they're they're shifting. They're adjusting their strategy and they're turning things around. >> Let's actually let's talk about that. Um, it's been a extremely successful turnaround. What would you say like for for those who are listening who aren't at in Buenosades, what is the how would you describe the EF turnaround that has happened?

>> Um, you know, even if you're not in Buenosares, I think uh you probably remember six months to nine months ago when we had conversations about whether rollups and L2s were competitive to the Ethereum L1. >> Yeah. Um even though we have a roll-up centric roadmap uh the value proposition of ETH the asset was very fragile uh because we saw more and more L2s launch their own tokens choose their own priorities and start to take away from the Ethereum L1 that has really changed and so now I think with the new direction that Ethereum is headed with the changes at the Ethereum Foundation they've been able to identify the top priorities for roll-ups, which is uh

scale blobs, improve the UX, uh and scale the L1. And so I think no longer are we prioritizing roll-ups at the expense of Ethereum. Now there's a dual mandate. I think there's prioritize roll-ups and prioritize the L1. And I am really, really, really uh enthusiastic about native roll-ups >> uh and based roll-ups. And I think we've been talking about base roll-ups for a long long time. We saw Orin come on, our first guest of the day, talk about a decentralized sequencer rotation. They're one of the few teams that are actually doing it. Yeah, it's in early stages. Yeah, all the even though it's decentralized, they're all ran by Starkware, but they're showing this proof of concept. They're showing that it's possible and we're seeing more and more of the teams go into this direction. I think native roll-ups are

such a massive unlock to bring composability back to Ethereum. >> Yeah. Um, I I do believe that this is going to bring a lot of roll-ups back to the L1. We're going to see more and more assets come back uh and a lot more of this activity happen on the L1. It's going to end up increasing the volume and probably increasing the burn as a result of bringing activity closer to the L1. >> Well, that's what Lighter is doing. Lighter is uh decreas or increasing the Ethereum burn in a big way, which is uh exciting. Just a couple more notes on the Ethereum Foundation reversal. It truly feels like um over the last year with uh Tamas you know taking over as kind of like the uh you know president or kind of executive director uh and just kind of the shift in the culture of the way and approaching of getting

things done. The entire Ethereum community is rallying behind that in Buenosar like you can feel it in the air. Sure. Again, we're all down bad, but the reality is there's this new found approach of kind of really supporting builders, being strategic in the comms, being strategic in the overall kind of output. And you can feel that like we had this push out to L2s and to kind of the broader uh you know rollup ccentric roadmap which has been a success but it it does feel like it's coming home and and I feel like Fusaka coming up the privacy work that Vitalik's been pushing and more you can feel the community rallying behind the EF in a big way and you see it on Twitter you feel it in the air and people are talking about it and so that

switch we're calling it a successful turnaround a successful reversal, a bullish reversal. What that what actually happens, the ramifications of this, it it will be felt over years. It's already being felt in the microcosm of, you know, the the community here, but it's going to be felt over the the next couple years. And so, I I just think that it's hard to overstate how important that uh the this kind of Ethereum Foundation war mode, if you will, or just kind of focus mode uh is for the entire community. I I think for a long time the EF wasn't listening uh and it was sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. >> You know, it it prioritized roll-ups, but it wasn't listening to what roll-ups wanted. For so long, we've heard

roll-ups talking about fast finality. It feels like the EF is finally starting to take that seriously. >> Um at the same time, on the other hand, uh for so long, the community was talking about uh what we're going to do to basically make number go up. Yeah. Uh and finally it feels like the EF is listening to the community and they're saying look we want some of these technology upgrades that end up increasing the value proposition of ETH. I'm curious if you know what where you stand on this debate between revenue and monetary premium as it relates to ETH the asset. >> I mean I just think that um it's ETH has is getting is getting into that kind of hard asset kind of like uh ETH is money type of operation and it's been there for a while. Bitcoin's obviously had that for, you know, quite a long time.

Um, and and I just think Ethereum's getting there. So, I mean, big shout out to everyone from the EF who's helped us put this on as well as uh who have supported the builders at Dev Connect. I know it's not easy to host big events at big venues and do everything. So, big shoutouts to you guys. Guys, we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back uh with Dankrad uh we're going to do lightning round. We're going to talk tempo, EF, fast finality, tech uh and more. So, see you guys in just a sec. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

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Open, stable, borderless. FRA is building the next generation of stablecoin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit fra.com to learn more today. Ye is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have. >> All right, guys. Welcome back. We are day two uh live on Rollup TV from Dev Connect. We've got Dankrad Feist up next. Uh we have a ton to talk about. Uh, we've heard so many things from different Ethereum builders. Dankrad is the father of Danksharting. I'm looking at him right now. I I hope he's fired up. Uh, we're gonna talk Perask. We're going to talk Tempo. We're going to talk stable coins. We're going to talk fast finality. Get into the tech. Really

looking forward to learning. You know, when we came here, we set out to learn from some of the smarter uh people in the industry. That's been the entire kind of philosophy. >> That's been that's been the mission since we started was talk to people smarter than us so that we could learn and and we could bring everyone along for the journey as well. Dankrad, please come join the show. Thank you for joining. It's a pleasure to see you in person. >> Hey there. >> Cheers. >> Good to meet you in person. Hey there. Thanks for coming on. >> I think last we had you on, you were calling in from what looked like a movie theater in um in in somewhere in in Europe. Um how are you enjoying Buonosis?

>> Uh it's really great here. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing. >> Good, good, good, good. Is it your first time? >> It is my first time in Argentina. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. spend a few weeks uh in San Martin at Edge City before. That was really great. >> Nice. >> Very cool. >> Yeah, I've I've heard those uh those events, they put on a really good show and they do a good job and it's feels really community oriented and Yeah. >> Yeah. Amazing. >> Good, >> man. I think the last time that we uh we spoke on the show, you were still part of the Ethereum Foundation. I think now you're still part of it, but at maybe a higher level and uh you have a a new role at Tempo. Could you talk us through the transition? why uh did you choose to make that move and and kind of what led

up to it? Tell tell us the story. Um, I mean for me it's um I when when I started talking to like the tempo people and metang it was just uh became pretty clear to me that this is uh currently one of the best if not the best opportunity out there to um to yeah get stable coin payments uh on chain and um at scale and like um actually touching billions of people's of lives and uh um yeah I mean I think Like currently I I do think like um Ethereum is like on a much better path than last year. But yeah, currently >> uh I think overall actually this is not just Ethereum, the whole blockchain ecosystem has kind of um somewhat ignored the payment side of things and

uh and is actually um uh maybe a lot of people thought it was too boring or something but I think like right now it's actually when I when I when I looked at I was like wow this is like such a huge opportunity and like um missing that would just be like I think a catastrophe for the whole crypto space like the the opportunity is there and me to execute to like get in there now. >> Yeah, if you don't mind just scooting a bit closer. >> Sure. Of course. Um, >> and Dank, [clears throat] there's billions and billions of dollars on Ethereum now. But, you know, you you chose to go to Tempo because they saw this vision very clearly and like you said, Matt Hang was was able to articulate it. What was it that Matt said that really convinced you to join Tempo?

>> Uh, I think overall, I mean, the the So, Tempo is like is not just Matt Huang. It's like it's it's it came out of um an initiative of like not just Stripe and Paradigm Act, but actually many other companies that were out there were like we want to do something with stable coin payments right now that had concrete applications, not like companies that were like oh we want to do something on chain. No, like they really had like okay, these are like uh the pain points and like we need a solution now and uh and and that's really what convinced me because like I I think this is about like yeah solving these problems rather than like continuing to work somewhere in the basement and like trying to just like I don't know like make crazy things like work in some way like it's it's

it's nice but I think that's not where we are right now anymore in the crypto space like we have found this product market fit and like Someone needs to actually execute and do it. >> Man, we heard um I can't remember who it was, Dankrad, but they said the term research fetish. Oh, that was Hanan from Codex >> as if and so C codeex is probably Hanan from Codex the you know so you know similar idea right probably a lot of the similar frame of thought um and you know I think you're right and it's quite funny that uh we had payments and remittances seven years ago in crypto we we had stable coins were just kind of coming out slowly but it was like these unsexy kind of albeit boring use cases that are now coming to the forefront again um and and so you know you see this as a way to make this impact and

and and really kind of take uh this industry to a more practical adoption phase. Um what is going to be your role at Tempo? What what what job do you want to play there and how will you make your mark? >> Um so I mean I I see myself already now as a protocol architect. I kind of like dropped the title researcher more or less in my work because I think like a lot of things I mean and nothing against research and I did some research at the F as well but I think like um right now there there are not that many things that like need this kind of like academic research focus. I mean I it's still appropriate for many things but I think like also we just need to be much more clear that like there are many things that are possible now and like

yeah I mean research fetish was like an interesting I I do think like the the Ethereum ecosystem was somewhat guilty of falling into that trap where like basically like maybe like 10 years ago it was like it was all about research there were so many things like we didn't understand and uh and that's not really quite true anymore and now now you need I would say like the full spectrum and before like and we fixed that at the ATM foundation to some extent this year like we kind of like stopped having this very big and um kind of almost academic research team and like integrated everything together with the engineering teams which is a really great idea. Um but yeah like basically we need to realize that now we need the full spectrum of things. we need all the like all the intermediate roles and as well who like are actually implementing that

research and that's like engineers, research engineers and architects and so on. >> Do do you think there's a world and I I'd imagine that you do where there there is successful uh tempo is successful and Ethereum is successful. What is your bigger vision for what this space becomes a as a a as a whole, right? Like Ethereum the role it plays and tempo the role it plays. Could you describe the world you see you know into the future in which both of these sustain? >> Yeah, I mean almost certainly I mean right now I don't even um like with with what uh Ethereum's focus is now if you look at the reality of what happens on uh the Ethereum chain and uh and including most L2s then um there's almost zero overlap with tempo like these are almost disjoint sets. So I I I

don't know like I mean a lot of people hear oh it's now one and then for them it's like automatically competitive but if you look at the market dynamics actually there's almost zero competition like Ethereum's main business is DeFi and Tempo at the moment is not trying to do any DeFi and we might at some point like I mean I think like what makes most sense is of course all kinds of stable coin adjacent things things like forex and so on that's years into the future and again is not something that's kind of currently big on Ethereum. So I think like um I I don't see them as competitive at the moment like almost at all. Um it's also like tempo is not trying to launch its own currency in a way like it might have a token at some point but it's it will have a quite a

different role from ether. Um and uh yeah so so I think there will be there will be synergies for sure. So like basically if you think about it in the end like every like I mean people talked a lot about network effects and the one type of network effects we definitely have in crypto is like every crypto user is kind of a good thing because like once they are somewhere in the crypto ecosystem and have some capital they can bridge it anywhere very easily like part is still even getting them on there at all and so from that perspective like tempo is kind of good for everyone maybe except anyone who's like themselves directly focused on payments. Yeah. >> Um yeah.

>> Yeah. So, Ding, uh as protocol architect there, you know, we've had this thesis uh on the role for at least the last 18 months, which has been just around like the purpose-built nature of blockchains going forward, right? We saw the uh rise of the general purpose or universal chains in 2020, 2021, 2022, all L1s, Ethereum, you know, you name it. And then we kind of really saw this specialization kick in where we saw you know specialized chains now for perpex for gaming platforms for DeFi unit chain hyperlquid g you know the list goes on with tempo it's very clearly a paymentsbased chain >> uh what is the technical architecture required to make a highly successful payments focused chain and what does that look like from uh your perspective?

Mhm. Mhm. I mean there there are just some some very clear things like of things that you want. You want um like we want fast finality. You want very high scale for payment specifically which is like luckily like a little bit easier to uh to achieve than like general purpose compute. Um you want and then there are like some some basically like details that turn out pretty important things like basically like that you can pay fees in stable coins, right? like basically let's say a huge annoyance if you would have to keep around another currency and like maybe like account abstraction exists but it's not quite really like all there yet everything and so like having that like really smooth that you can pay uh well depends of course like and then it's a little bit easier for those chains that focus on one stable coin which is not

what we want to do like we want to be stable coin neutral um which means like we have we need to have a mechanism so that you can pay in any stable coin >> and so this category as a whole has started to rise Plasma and ARC and all these things coming out from both teams that are looking at launching uh the chain after launching their own stable coin and vice versa. What do you think about this category as a whole? How do you think the competitive dynamic is going to play out? >> Actually, just give us a quick sec before you answer that. Let's go a quick quick standby, please, and then we'll we'll be built for big moments. the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game.

Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, [music] if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. [music] Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your [music] assets now. Money

Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.Link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion dollars transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's largest [music] prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com. >> All right. So, Tempo is not launching a stable coin. You heard it here first. They're supporting all stable coins though. Uh want to be kind of more agnostic, which is actually a different strategy we've seen from ARC and Plasma and stable. Uh I think Codeex is probably more aligned with that. So, >> and that's incredibly neutral stance. That's a value that comes from the

Ethereum ecosystem. It, you know, is that where that philosophy comes from? This this idea that it's better for us to support the entire breadth of stable coins rather than launch our own >> just a business decision. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Not everything's philosophy around >> Well, that's that's my question is like what what is the business case to not >> to not right to to support all of them instead of launching your own? >> I mean, it depends what you want to do. And I think like this one I I I I can't actually speak for the business decisions. >> Beautiful. All right, guys. We're going to talk about the upcoming Fusaka upgrade. Some some context here uh from you, Dankrad. You know, your journey first started when you began working with the EF team in 2018, later joining full in 2019. Um and basically this upcoming Fusaka upgrade will finally

implement Peris. Uh you know, we're going to get bigger blobs, more blobs, more space. Um tell us more about your work on Fusaka. what went into this upgrade and why is it really important for Ethereum's rollup ccentric roadmap? >> Yeah. So the upgrade is um so the the fundamental new thing that it introduces is like the the idea of data availability sampling. So we have this data availability layer on Ethereum now and um and at the moment it works by um it's it's essentially just a mechanism to post all the data on chain and um and uh that that's like we we kind of like as a first step like that was like the EIP 4844 prototank sharding it introduced this idea of like separating

it from the existing execution so it's not as contentious anymore but now for the first time it will actually be scalable. So like what happens in Fusaka is that now like nodes don't have to process all this data anymore and so we can yeah put more data on chain than like was possible before because not all nodes will now have to download this data >> but they can still through this mechanism verify that all the data is available >> right and so from like a a tech perspective effectively you've got all this data that you need to verify uh its its accuracy you know and instead of having to go you know verify at every single line, every single uh block, you can basically take a random sampling mechanism and verify through that that uh the data is indeed available and is

basically uh saved from any data withholding attacks. >> That's right. >> And then why does that enable Ethereum to scale for higher throughput for L2s and cheaper gas costs? So yeah for L2 is like the ones so the rollups the ones that post the data on the Ethereum chain um they can use this to to basically like get get cheaper data and get push more data on chain. Um so so yeah we'll have much more transactional throughput. It is actually also important for the future of Ethereum. So like this year we kind of made the decision that we'll start to scale the L1 as well.

>> Yeah. Right. Um and uh and so far that happens using like um by by improving the engineering by optimizing things. So um so that's kind of like the plan for the first two years or so to hopefully get to a scale of about 10x. Um and then like in the future we want to use this edit additional technology which like ZKVMs that basically allow us to verify um the execution at scale and but they also suffer from this. Basically, you could say like um the Ethereum L1 will itself become a roll up, right? Like and uh and so it also needs to post its data somewhere and you need to be scalable. So otherwise you'll just be limited by the data instead of the execution. And so like probably in a couple of years like we will we will make use of the same layer to actually scale the L L1 as

well. >> Yeah. And we're seeing this uh phenomena of roll-ups coming back to Ethereum. It it feels like you know they all kind of left uh the execution was pushed off chain but now the idea of native roll-ups and based roll-ups is bringing these roll-ups back to Ethereum bringing them bringing the sequencing back uh via based roll-ups and then bringing the execution back via native roll-ups. Uh you know when you talk about Ethereum becoming a rollup of its own, where does the data go? How does this how how might this affect the enduser experience? Mhm. Mhm. Uh well, I mean that depends a lot, right? Like I mean I think like if you if you use Ethereum through an RPC, which is like 99% of all users, then um then it doesn't affect it at all. Um and uh so if you're if you run if you run a node for example, if you want to run a

validator, then basically it will allow you to like run a much lighter node because suddenly there are like a lot of things that you don't need to do anymore with your node. you we can in principle get to a place like uh where where you don't need to run this execution layer anymore which is like 80% or so of the work right now. So like your node can become much lighter while at the same time the scale becomes much larger. >> Um now if you still want to if you want to run like your own node in order to like use that to to use Ethereum then it doesn't really help you that much because now you still need um to have the state around. we can probably get rid of the execution part because we can just like post states and you know that they're correct kind of. So like there

are still improvements that you can get from it. >> Yeah. So um part of the you know I guess message that we've heard this week Rob has been >> we need to improve finality in Ethereum. We've heard it from Luca from L2B from the arbitum team from the optimism team. Um, we had Espresso on yesterday that they're kind of like, well, that's us, but the Ethereum's kind of like, well, we don't want to give this to another L1. >> Um, >> why is Finality such a big issue right now for Ethereum with regards to its roadmap? >> And, you know, we've heard a lot of these cries for help, if you will, and I sent a I sent a message to uh the the the EF chat, and I got some push back saying like, look, well, look, the like, you know, the the Ethereum Foundation isn't, you know, responsible for helping

everyone's problems here. um you know maybe uh we should you have a better way of approaching this. >> Let's talk about the issue. Let's talk about what the technical solution is and then let's you know kind of think about how we implement that. >> Well I mean I actually think like there actually three separate issues and they all need to be addressed. So I I separate into like there's the kind of like time to inclusion. how quickly well actually no sorry the first one is actually time to um uh time to get uh some type of confirmation so like an optimistic confirmation then there's a time to inclusion and then there's time to finality and they all matter for different things like basically time to get a preconfirmation is like good for UX the faster you can get this to a user the better the user will feel about using the chain time to inclusion is

basically how quickly can you especially like time to inclusion for contentious transactions For example, if you want to trade or something, right, then someone might exclude you intentionally because it is advantageous for for them economically. So basically how quickly can you get your transaction in under adversarial um conditions like this um that is very important for economics like that's for example important for the DEX economics and then there's a time to to finality um which yeah depends what yeah basically matters in a way like in a very abstract sense for all L2s like in a in a like in the broadest sense you can include things like exchanges and so on also in that category basically anyone who does who who in who uh interacts with the chain in like a hybrid way, right? And so they need finality in order to like be sure

that for example they have taken custody of an asset or something. >> Um >> and yeah, I I think like uh I think I mean my my sense is we need to improve all of these a lot. Um and uh like I mean like I I hope that we'll like Ethereum can get to six second block time next sometime next year. um that would be really good. So that would be a factor of two in all of them already. And then like on finality, yeah, like we have like a lot of research in the works to like improve that massively. Um I think they're like at least two or three different efforts and I think like we still have to figure out exactly which one will be the one to go with. >> Yeah, finality is one of the things that we've heard. Uh I'm curious what from your perspective what is the the most

significant technical bottleneck or limitation that Ethereum is still facing today that that we should really prioritize and focus on? >> Mhm. Um I mean the the biggest the the most difficult part in getting there well I mean okay actually there are two things like basically so um Ethereum has for a very long time not done much work on the peerto-peer layer like basically when we started when we launched the beacon chain we just uh used the lip P2P we're like oh it's great like there's a ready library a lot of projects are going to share it that ended up not being true like Ethereum is by far the largest user of it but it's not been adapted to Ethium specific specific use case at all. And I think like we're changing that now. Like Raul joined the peer-to-peer team this year or he

actually like is kind of leading it. And so it's like um yeah, I mean I think like we we'll see hopefully like very big changes there because I think there's like there's like a lot of slack. So you can actually improve that a lot. Um and then the other big I guess like problem way that Ethereum faces is like we have this massive validator set and so that makes like a lot of things a lot more difficult. like a lot of things would be possible if you had like a thousand validators >> arguably too decentralized or too many validators. >> I mean like the thing is it's not actually we know there's only like 10,000 or 15,000 nodes. I don't know the exact number. So like right now basically like we have kind of you could call them logical validators like in the consensus we keep track of like more

than a million entities but they're not like real validators in the sense that they are independently managed. So like that's kind of unfortunately problem. We're trying to trying to fix that with the Maxi EB, but I think the incentives are just not right to like get people to actually consolidate enough to for it to make a difference. >> Yeah. I'm I'm curious kind of in in a tangent to that thought. What do you think about Justin Drake's lean Ethereum proposal and and work? Is that what we need to uh scale the L1? What's your general thoughts there? >> I think that's separate. So lean Ethereum is a big initiative on consensus and um and I think like I mean so for me like a huge like a very important part of it is like the

postquantum road map like that's absolutely very important that someone like um really figures that out how to do that. So that's amazing for lean Ethereum. My personal opinion on it is like I >> I don't believe it should come as like one big upgrade like the merge or something. I think like it's great that Justin tries to build this like consistent like chain, but I think like um what we should probably try doing is to iteratively uh pick and choose the improvements that it brings to us and like bring them on a much shorter time scale to like to Ethereum.

>> Y >> I have a counterpart to my earlier question about like what the most problematic things about Ethereum are. Now I'm curious, you know, the flip side of that, what do you think have been the most significant achievements or milestones in recent times that Ethereum has pushed Ethereum to its success? >> Mhm. Well, I mean, I think like um I mean I mean we we did uh I mean like clearly there there end up ended up problems with the rollup centric roadmap. I think like we did definitely um execute on it and it definitely like was in some sense a major success like that would not have existed without it. Um I mean I I think like to me personally like what is closest to me like I think like Fusaka is kind of the >> the biggest upgrade in that is kind of

like >> that's your baby man >> in a way. Yes. Right. [laughter] Um >> yeah. >> Yeah. Very cool. Um, so within the the lens of this uh finality conversation, it ties into Lena theme a bit. It also ties into some of the prioritization. Let's say we we get this right. We solve this finality uh, you know, issue here. What would that look like in a postfast finality Ethereum world? Like not single slot times or single slot finality, but you know, somewhere closer to where we are today. From our perspective, it would effectively enable a far better base layer for L2s. It would really facilitate a better rollup ccentric model. >> Okay.

>> What actually technically uh would be better for developers, for users like in that in that world, what is going to be better for us? >> In what world >> in the post faster finality world? >> Oh, right. Right. Yeah. Um yeah, I mean like well some things like um I I think it depends a lot and I think like basically this is kind of like it it it will allow us to to have um much faster um roll up settlements and things like that. Now the interesting thing is that right now that's actually not even bottlenecked by L1 finality. It's bottlenecked by the by the proving times. So I think like right now it's kind of I think right now the

most significant thing you would get is like uh being able to deposit to exchanges more quickly. I think that's that's actually the biggest uh um improvement you would see if you improve that right now. >> But I I think users are demanding that like 250 second militime or millisecond confirmation time like what they're used to on Hyperlquid or what they're used to on all L1s. And it feels like um institutions are actually demanding the finality >> because they want confirmation and guarantees near instantly because that's effectively what they're used to getting in their world, right? I mean, or or or something close to that. Like if I send you a Venmo, >> I I I'm know that it's sent as soon as it's sent, it's like, you know, it's it's it's [clears throat] final in in

some >> Well, I mean, it's very clear that for institution, this is important. I mean like I I don't know if the premise that you're putting there is right because like actually the biggest problem that they often face is like the two day or one day >> settlement settlement right yes which are much >> but from a user perspective it feels final >> and for the intrain institutional transfers right Venmo account to Venmo account all happens on the Venmo ledger that they can process near instantly when we're doing things on the Ethereum world or between different institutions they're looking for a similar settlement time. No, but yeah, I hear what you're saying. It's maybe not the best sound. [laughter] >> I I I have a question about the ZK roadmap. Justin Drake has been talking about this, but it's part of the technical road map of Ethereum overall. Um, one of the things that I've heard as

a push back to this has been that it would effectively kingmake one of these ZKVMs, whether it's risk zero or succinct or risk five or one, one of these. Um, is that the case or is there something that's that we're kind of missing in the discourse where no, there's actually a more robust version of this that we're talking about including in the Ethereum protocol? >> I mean, I think currently the plan is that there's not going to be a single ZKVM, but there's going to be a choice of several of them similar to like the multi-client road map that they would like basically like it would be something like two out of three or four out of five or so >> would have to agree in order for >> Exactly. Yeah. Um, and I think that makes sense. I mean, I but I Okay, like this is this is kind of like a debate

that's ongoing. I mean, I would actually personally be for uh some king making there and actually be um making making a choice. I think like there are other people who like say like, oh, it's like should be completely up to the user to choose which ones you want to trust and so on. Not that convinced of of that way of things because I feel like the incentives are quite bad. That's Yeah. >> I I got to ask if you were in char like if you were just gonna >> I knew that was coming. >> If you were if [laughter] you were king of Ethereum, right? >> I mean, you're father of a father of uh of D charting, but if you were king of Ethereum, uh which ZKVM would you choose? >> I don't think I would be ready to make that choice right now. Okay. >> It is kind of too early at this point.

Like I don't think they're quite mature enough yet. >> Yeah. And so what metrics would you be looking at to determine the one that is ready for it? >> I mean there are several of course I mean there is there is performance but I think most importantly and this one is like very very hard to do like it's just the maturity of the project how certain you are and again I I I do agree there shouldn't be one. I think like having like I think probably two out of three or something like is is a great way of doing it. >> Yeah. um on the on the lens of tempo of institutions of of payments of boring stuff. We get these weird like cycles of narratives in the space where something's really hot one year takes like five years to actually build it out from the time that that it was exciting

and then it becomes hot again. >> Privacy is here again. uh for probably institutional reasons, for regulatory clarity reasons. Um Vitalic has came out and put a uh kind of a open statement to Ethereum saying, "Hey guys, here's our privacy kind of a roadmap." Um m maybe >> toolkit released. >> Maybe you could explain this toolkit um why this is important to Ethereum. >> Do you actually think it's going to get adopted? Like what is this, you know, where are we at? Okay. So, just like I I I haven't looked that deeply into what Vitalik is building, but I do think that privacy is super important. And I think like it is it is the right push and I think like I agree that like there are like a lot of things that seem right right now. And I

do think like also like I'm very happy that like um the crypto community is like kind of getting much more mature about privacy, right? At picking the tradeoffs which are like which are just there, right? like you I I think like you cannot build a system that is like made for North Korea to launder hundreds of millions of dollars. Like we don't want that. Um and we but we do want like privacy and like um and and I think it's like I mean this this is what I see what people are building now and that's amazing and that's great and um I think like also for tempo it's like super important like we like privacy will be like at the forefront of payments as well. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Privacy for payments is a is a must. Um, uh, when it comes to, we're going all over the topics here. We're just trying to fit as as much of it in. We >> I put out a tweet. I was like, four of the top 10, uh, rollups or L2s in Ethereum are stage zero. [clears throat] >> Um, and I put this was a massive issue for Ethereum. Some people were like, dude, you're over exaggerating. Some people were like, this is huge. Like, this is a big problem. How much do you personally care about stage zero, stage one, stage two? And like what would be your call to action to L2s as far as their progressive decentralization? >> Yeah, I mean this is very interesting because like I think um I mean my view um has changed probably like a lot on this and it is it diverges quite a bit from like the kind of like EF and maybe

Vitalik's view on this. Um I think like basically what most rollups see and why they are like stage zero or stage one um is that yeah building these bridges is really really hard because like you basically yes like it's it's smart contracts but it's like incredibly complex smart contracts and now you have to suddenly say like 100% like all the all the load goes on these and uh and the interesting thing is like when you actually start looking into it it matters mainly for one thing like for the ether that's bridged to the rollups, right? Like for for other assets, we're now seeing the trend that um they they are just issued um like on like natively anywhere and like for the real world assets like in the end that just makes sense. I mean I do think there's like a

world where like we start seeing direct like equities directly being rooted on some chain and that's great and we should work towards that. I do think that's like decades away realistically. Like I mean the DTCC is still keeping paper certificates and safes like this is how slow like these things change like these laws change. So I think like for a very long time we'll see these more like indirect solutions where you have a company that keeps this the the security somewhat custodially and then issues an asset on chain and obviously they can ch issue that on many chains and they get great advantages from that because now well they don't have to trust the bridges like basically the node software is way more mature and that's like what these rollups rely on

for these assets and uh and they can then do mint and burn bridges which are like much faster than anything else that exists. >> Yeah. I mean, the push back for the stage two in the context of what of what you're describing here as far as the different use cases has been if there's a bug, there's a bug and there's no squashing of that bug. Um, but from zero, >> it doesn't have to be exactly true, right? Like you have these constructions like where you have a security council that can only intervene if there's an actual bug, but like it's very very hard to actually do all this. But from stage zero to one, it feels like we got to get there >> for next year.

>> Like all the big chains need to be at stage one, >> right? >> Um you you talked a little bit about the Ethereum Foundation's uh you know uh transition over the over some some several months. >> Um we're calling this a bullish reversal. Uh you know like there was you know six months. >> Yeah. You know ran the stops. We we've also kind of said that Ethereum's kind it's in wartime mode uh and and feels like now is the time to ship. Now is the time to make positive change. Uh would you agree? Would you say Ethereum is in wartime mode? >> Um I mean my honest opinion is it's like yes it it has like started going there but I don't think it's enough. Like I think like my opinion would be uh we need to do a lot more and I think like

there started to be push back and I think like basically people start oh do we really need to do that much and I'm like I think like I think we need to do more personally but that's my opinion. >> All right Dan Grant we got a couple fun things for you. First thing is we're building a Spotify playlist uh this week for all of our guests and I'd like to ask you what song you'd like to add to the Spotify playlist. Oh my god. I give you a [laughter] chance to think about it. Whether it's a favorite song, a song you've heard here, something that you've been enjoying lately. What would be your your song? >> Wow. I don't know. >> What kind What kind of music do you typically listen? [laughter] Who's your artist of choice? Are you like a rock and roll? Are you like a lowfi or >> I I'm now like actually yeah I mainly

listen to lowfi these days. I don't have a specific song though. It's just like I just go on Spotify and find a lowfi playlist. >> All right. We'll we'll add a nice little loi. Uh this one's called I'm yours. Uh Loi Fruits. Um we also have a gift for you Dankrad. Uh we'd like to present this to you and I think you'll enjoy it. Um because on the show we've been uh kind of pioneering this idea of return to fundamentals. And so uh we've we've brought this as our slogan of the show because to us it feels like the entire space >> is evolving into a a you know build something real, really get something done. That's probably a lot of the reason why you're going to work at Tempo.

>> Yeah. you know, so talk to us about what return to fundamentals means to you uh in the lens of your personal career, your journey, um and you know, your future work. >> Uh I mean actually to be honest, I feel like I've always been very much a fundamental guy. I think uh my my views has views probably haven't changed that much but I would say like probably like at the beginning I was probably much more uh careful about about it because like I didn't really like I mean there was a lot of things going on in crypto maybe like a lot of it was like I don't understand that to be honest I don't know why this is val and I think like in a way I'm feeling much more comfortable in an environment that is much more about fundamentals. >> Yeah. Good. All right, guys. We're going

to take a quick final break. We're going to have lightning round with Bankrat. We've got about eight or nine quick yes or no questions for him. We'll see where we get to. We be right back. Ye is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your

coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more.

Kshi is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. yours private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience. Havachi is fast. >> All right, 60 seconds. Dankrad lightning round. Question one. Rank these three trade-offs: speed, scale, security.

>> Um, uh, security Speed scale. >> Nice. Okay, next one. Uh, fill in the blank. Ethereum is blank. >> Uh, the future of finance. >> The future of finance. [clears throat] >> What do people fundamentally misunderstand about you, Dankra? uh probably that uh I I have taken a particular role for the Etheum ecosystem but like I think like um it's it has to be seen relative to like what exists rather than like this is like fundamentally like I'm like only about make it fast and uh I'm I'm very much pro security and everything. >> Cool. Cool. Next one. Uh is ether money?

>> Um as it is used no right now. No, I could be. >> What is your biggest sleeper project or protocol in the Ethereum community? [laughter] >> If you could deliver one message to the Ethereum community, what would it be? >> Um, you got to fight for finance on Ethereum. >> Dank Feist live from Rollup TV. Lightning round. Thank you, Dankra. It's been an absolute pleasure, man. >> Appreciate it. >> Thanks for joining us for coming on. >> All right, guys. We'll be right back with Stani from a next guest. We've got a whole lineup this afternoon. About four more hours left. I don't know how we're going to survive. Dank, thanks. Thanks for joining. We'll be right back, guys.

Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, [music] if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion dollar transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers [music] and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's largest [music] prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private, and here today. Visit near.ai AI to have a fully private chat experience.

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your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains [music] for stable coin transfers and payments.

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Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stablecoin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your

coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more.

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Open, stable, borderless. FRA is building the next generation of stable coin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today. Ye is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your

coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. [music] Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more.

Colshi is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private, and here today. Visit near.ai AI to have a fully private chat experience. Havachi is fast [music] and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading [music] today.

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Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience. Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable defy platform that is ready to go. Head to

infinifi.xyz. XYZ [music] Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again. Open, stable, borderless. FRA is building the next generation of stable coin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today.

Ye is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. >> [music] >> Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains [music] for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. Kshi is the world's [music] largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. yours private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast [music] and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading [music] today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz.

Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again. Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stable coin infrastructure for [music] the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, [music] 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. [music] Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge [music] your assets now.

Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains [music] for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to callsheet.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with [music] Celestia underneath. Go to Habach. >> So Andy, what's your favorite bare market activity? >> Well, we just had a great session with Dankrad. Um truly one of the pioneers of Ethereum scaling upgrade coming at the end of the month. I mean getting back into it for the tech is my favorite. I was just going to say learning more about the tech is is my favorite bare market activity. >> So, um yeah guys, I mean Stany's coming up now. Should be a great uh run. They've announced that the A app this week as well as A V4 has been kind of brought into production uh or at least kind of like the first stages of it. So, yeah, I mean Dangrad's session was fantastic and yeah, guys, don't check the charts. I mean, if you heard my

doomer rant earlier, that's kind of where we're at. But um here with the builders in Bonosadis, it's it's funny because you come to these events and you hear nothing about the price ever. >> Um and so I think that's good, but I think there's definitely like the vibe of like, okay, what's going on? What's going on? So, um >> I I think we do a pretty good job of balancing the two. Like, you know, people want to hear about the markets. Um you're right. At Dev Connect in particular, >> um it's almost like taboo. Like you're not supposed to talk about prices here. Yeah. uh you're supposed to talk about the technology here. So before our next guest comes on and we we get back uh into all the exciting things that are happening on a um one thing that you're noticing is like Zcash hype uh are holding up relatively well.

>> Oh, extremely well. I mean Zcash is green on the day. Hype is barely down. >> Pretty much flat on the day. Everything else is getting decimated. Uh I think >> it really is a game of what assets you hold now. I mean it's just so it's so different than it has been in the past. >> This is how the repricing happens. I totally agree. >> Uh Sunonni's one minute out. I think we're just gonna stay live. Uh and as he comes in, I'm gonna shift over a little bit. >> But it it it I mean like you bring up a good point. It is literally the like the new market is uh it's it's the assets that you hold have never been more important like the types of assets. Um and yeah, I mean that that's that's where we're at. Like if you had the if

you have the majority of your portfolio in hype, uh you've really not taken that bad of a beating yet. I mean, you know, knock on wood or whatever, right? But, uh, you know, Bitcoin's down 5% on the day. ETH's down 7% on on on the day. Hype's down, uh, two and a half percent. Zcash up five. Yeah, it's just it's tough. It's tough to to look at this and and it it is such an important game to pick the right assets. Now, >> I think >> from an investing perspective, >> there's also a a section [snorts] of the market that has done relatively well. What's that? Um, well, privacy has done well. Like Starknet is doing well >> recently. Yeah, >> recently doing well. Uh, you know, you could also point out coins like Uniswap that, um, have had recent announcements.

You know, they're coming back down a little bit now, but those announcements are starting to move the market. Yeah. For a while there, it was like even >> I mean, we were getting so much bullish news one after the other. it not these announcements failed to have an impact on the market there for a while because there was so much uh happening all at once that the the market wasn't very reflexive and I think in hindsight this was part of why we started to see the apathetic right because when you start to have news events no longer make an impact on the price that is when we we sort of lose our sense of uh what is a material impact uh what matters and what doesn't >> well I mean that's how you know the tides have shifted When the when the bad news no longer affects the market, then you can you kind of allude to the fact

that things will probably get better. When the good news stops affecting the market, you can probably allude to the fact that things are going to get worse. >> And now it feels like we're in a little bit more of a re realistic time period because we do see things like this unification proposal from Uni. Yeah. Uh we're seeing um like what's another example of you know something that has had a material impact on the market as of recently? >> Yeah. um uh you know some of the some of the projects announcing buybacks you know we saw that kind of flash in the pan um even aerodrome right their acquisition that token is doing relatively well clanker is another token in the in the space ecosystem but that's coming back to reink reality as well um so these things that have you know some sort of news it feels like we're

starting to get back into a point where maybe we were overheated there was too much noise uh and you good good news didn't move the move the market. Now we're getting back to like yeah things actually matter, right? Like the business models matter. Good news I >> mean that is the the theme of this event. I would say >> good news is good for the token. Bad news is bad for the token. This feels like it's a it's a more realistic market conditions. >> I mean we we are uh we're in a very very peculiar spot right now. Um and and I think that uh yeah, I mean pro a lot of people are in pain, including us. So that's okay. It's okay to be in pain. Uh you just got to kind of withstand it and that's what matters. Survive it. It's

really a survival uh market right now. Um so no leverage trim spot and trim. The reality is there's you know short-term is so hard to predict. It's always a toss-up. Longterm I think the trend is clear. So >> exactly. So pick your time horizons wisely. uh and uh another long-term founder, someone who's been building in the space for years and uh plays long-term games with long-term people, throws long-term raves and has uh has a lot of fun uh in the industry. We are live now. Stanie >> Stan in the most fashionable pants we've seen all week on Rob.

>> Welcome. Good to see you again. Pleasure. >> Thanks for coming. >> Of course. welcome to the show. >> Thank you. >> And congrats on the big week, man. >> Yeah, it's been a busiest week of the year. >> Yeah. Um, absolutely electric news coming from all angles. Before we get to that, how's Bonosis treating you? How's the food? How's the culture? How's your experience been? >> Amazing. I've been coming here almost every year uh for the past four years. >> Nice. >> Um, and it's um it's every year it's different, but it's I love it here. the best community. People are very friendly and um yeah, I mean uh um you've probably witnessed this as as well that the food is really good.

>> It is favorite type of empanada. [laughter] >> There's so many. >> Um man, so let's start. A app. Okay. You know, we've heard distribution is king uh endlessly throughout uh crypto and other industries. We had regulatory issues with the app stores broadly. We had a lot of constraints. those have been lifted this year in a big way. Um you guys have brought this A app now to the market effectively a high yield savings application kind of in that neo bank category. Talk to us about kind of the lore there. How did this come about? What what uh inspired you guys to take this next step? Yeah, on the A so a app I think um the the the the most amazing thing that we've done in DeFi and particularly with with a is that we be

we're able we've been able to create a very resilient um lending pool. So today uh there's roughly like 50 billion worth of u net deposits in a um very stable coin centric. So um and it it's been able to operate really well without issues over the period of 5 years. Um um people trust a saying goes just use a >> or defi will win that's a good one too. >> Defi will win as well and and the way defi will win is is now um trying to make accessible to to everyone. So being able to create as simple and as easy as possible way to move uh funds from your bank accounts uh into a uh that's the way we're going to onboard uh the rest

of the world and and um uh to do it uh really well uh we essentially need to have the app and also native ons as well and and that provides the experience where users feel like it's a a more traditional uh uh like a financial application and and and all the abstraction really serves the users, obstructing away the um the wallet component, obstructing away uh chains, um stable coins and and everything that is really like alien for mainstream users while keeping uh true to the nature of of of DeFi and and uh self-custodial access. I think that's the most important thing.

>> Absolutely. The the mobile experience is one that's very familiar with end users. um they're familiar with the online banking experience and now a is firmly within the top 50 banks probably quite higher maybe in the top 30s at this point. Uh Andy and I were at uh Chainlink SmartCon a couple weeks ago. Fidelity, Black Rockck, these these financial institutions that are sponsoring uh and coming into the space now. Uh so we've we've picked up some institutional guests and connections amongst our network. Uh and so what would your message be to the banks that that could be watching this now that a is uh one of the top banks in in the US in the world? Yeah. And the way I see it, A is um even though you know there's a comparison on in terms of like the amount of liquidity and and whatnot, a is still a a protocol, a a lending

network. And my kind of vision is to see a actually being more uh used by as a infrastructure for a lot of these um institutions and and banks. And then we the way it happens um down the line is that um as more uh traditional institutions are connecting connecting and also we will see uh also embedded defi. So embedded DeFi is the the path I also see how DeFi can actually scale with these uh integrations and and down the line um as there's more uh nodes in the network it's it scales the whole liquidity protocol meaning that there's more depth of liquidity boring becomes uh more affordable more business and then uh attracts more uh supply. So it's a flywheel that really benefits everyone

who connects into that uh lending network and over time um it really should help also a lot of these financial institutions to lower their operational expenses. So I think the two ways that um uh let's say banks or fintex can reduce their cost is one using AI and second going onchain and applying these two methods um obviously then allows you to operate with a lower operating um expense meaning there's cost savings uh for the end users and that's the benefit of of DeFi. >> Yeah. um just use a defi will win and now embedded defi feels like another term let's coin that right that is another meme that I think >> embedded defi yeah

>> embedded defi and that's the essence that uh people think of a as a bank but it's also a protocol that banks will use within their own systems >> okay and and so what has been the adoption the institutional adoption of a we've seen a horizon we've seen rwas um generally how have you seen this progression deeper and deeper into the financial space even though a rising cooperation and adoption. Could you talk about how uh how the institutional adoption process has gone? >> Yeah. No, I I think um DeFi is seen more of like um the infrastructure of the future. Um and it's something that essentially replaces the old rails of of banks um

the kind of old paperwork uh processes that existed there and and providing cost savings and more efficiency um and better access to to capital as well and more transparency which should lead uh to better risk management. on our side uh a side um a horizon obviously has been doing incredible um job here um we launched a horizon a couple of months ago it's over half a billion um market size at the moment where users can use tokenized assets so these RWAS as a collateral to borrow stable coins why this is interesting is that once you have these traditional assets on chain you can actually then access liquidity 247 and on the lending side. Um it provides stable coins, stable coin

lenders a way to lend against a traditional risk profile that exists in the traditional uh finance and um as tokenization continues we will see ETFs, equities um debts um communities um everything being on chain and then use a collateral uh in a being able to uh have better management, access to liquidity and and just offering a better financial uh rail. Yeah. So we at SmartCon two weeks ago we you know had the opportunity to speak to a lot of th those capital allocators those who would want to use a horizon.

Um and then obviously here at Dev Connect in Buenosirus quite the juxosition of crowds right I mean Robbie and I I was wearing like a white long sleeve. Rob was in like these nice sweaters. I saw you in a suit with Sergey. It was it was like okay Stein's you know Stein's in a suit. All right. We're looking good. Um, and so we feel like >> So, so here here's the thing. Like here's the thing. Like I like to dress the way I I dress. The thing is I look really good at suits. [laughter] But you know, like if if I if I look good, >> I'll wear a suit. >> Yeah. >> You see, I couldn't put the blazer on. I I couldn't do it.

>> Look good, you know. [laughter] That's what they call it, you know. >> All right. I'm not a suit guy is what he's saying. Um, and so we felt like there's this table that's being set, right? you know, we've been kind of building for this phase of the market for a while. Um, we've seen it, you know, all of the DeFi infrastructure has been laid out for this phase. A is clearly capturing a lot of that market. Um, and you know, chain link and others. >> How do you see this strategically from a perspective, right? Like there's this time period right now where Horizon has shipped and we'll talk about V4 too. I know that that's been in the works for a long time, but you know, as far as a broader message to the industry goes, this time period is very crucial um for

for adoption in that big way. Why have you guys been so successful? What kind of strategically has been your your viewpoint on capturing this uh capital and just generally adoption? Yeah, I think um DeFi lending is based on trust um and trust establishing trust is really important um and um that happens with uh good risk management having resiliency and the resiliency comes by ensuring that there is enough independent stakeholders um in the community that uh review different parameters choices um and and that creates a a a system where um you establish trust because um you're able to have automated liquorations that work um ensure that the protocol doesn't take

more uh risk than than it should be. So I think that is the the the the big aspect of that and uh a has been always a kind of um uh in the forefront of of innovation. So coming now with a v4 which we launched uh in testn net um yesterday uh was a big success for us and uh something we've been working on a couple of years um to showcase is that you have to keep innovating and creating new things that apply to these native crypto assets or tokeniz assets and um there's a lot to build uh you know we you have to get a whole world of credit on chain >> uh and there's bunch of problems to solve there and um >> that's why I'm super excited of uh of the innovation piece as well. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And there's tons of innovation happening on Ethereum. We've had lots of projects come in, a lot of rollups that have talked to us about what they're looking for from Ethereum. They're asking for fast finality. They're looking to scale the L1 and really feels like the the the roll-ups are coming back to Ethereum. The whole community is coming back to Ethereum. Uh, and I'm I'm curious from your perspective because a is not a rollup, doesn't have its own chain, but is such a systemic systemically important piece of Ethereum's DeFi mission. What do you look for in Ethereum? What do you think maybe you would you would prioritize on the Ethereum road map? I definitely think scalability is always important because at some point we will have a moment on Ethereum where you know things get congested

>> and when then congestion happens is you know we that's where all the applications and everything will kind of like slow down and suffer. So that's definitely a priority uh rollup as a scaling strategy is uh is great in the path forward. Um and I think there we have to figure out uh a bit better uh liquidity management between different uh uh networks um and accessing uh the deep uh mainet uh liquidity but also I would like to see more kind of uh uh more uh innovation on the the mainet as well. The thing about mainet is that it's securing so much value that any innovation has to be considered very uh deeply >> because it affects a a very secure

financial system. >> Yeah. Yeah. I feel like um you know the the community of Ethereum has rallied around its censorship resistance, its neutrality of the L1 and I think that we we're actually seeing that the institutional flows, they value that too. >> Yeah. >> Or or did we did we focus too much on that or or do they really truly value that? to be honest they do um you know there's a bunch of institutions that will be in multiple networks as they maybe they do some sort of strategic uh token purchases um of these RWAS yeah um and you'll see them in all networks because it's easy to maintain ERC20 >> but the true really true um kind of like a scaled RWA stuff institutional stuff will happen on Ethereum um that's where the most of the security is that's where

liquidity network effects Um, you know, I I I used to say and I I still say that you can't get fired from using a >> um and I think the same applies for Ethereum. So, um >> you have to be like um you know a little bit like conflicting or or you have to do some sort of uh interesting venture if you are choosing not to use Ethereum and and something else. There might be a reason for do that to do that that might be strategic. Yeah. And and that's fine. you know, we we need to see innovation everywhere, but for the serious stuff and things that has to scale, you know, you have to choose uh Ethereum and it >> Yeah, I'd like to get into V4 a bit more, but I just got to ask, is things a bit more boring now, you know, compared to 2020? I know it's exciting, but like

RWAs, institutions, stable coins, like >> you ever just miss the old days? >> Ah, yeah. I mean, I do and I don't because uh it was a lot of adrenaline. [laughter] >> Oh, we know. Yeah. sleepless nights. Um and uh back in D5 summer um >> but also I I think uh boring is good. Um boring u sustainable >> maybe another way to put it is peaceful feel a bit more peaceful. You know these things are doing well. They're in these things are really you know important to to the global financial system. >> Uh so boring peaceful like things are a little little bit more a little bit more steady these days it feels.

>> Yeah. And I think um why this is important is because uh we need to show that DeFi is resilient. It works and you know it can be integrated to the traditional financial um applications and and and and down the line you still have this open ecosystem to explore and experiment. >> Yeah. >> Um but last thing we need is is some sort of a a wall to explode and and uh or a curator to explode. like we we need to be in a place where really um you know DeFi feels trusted. If you lose the trust, we push back the whole space uh down the line and that's that's what happened uh for crypto so many times. you know, we get into a really good place and and then there's some sort of an issue. Um, and and I and I think now the best thing to do is is to to build that boring uh DeFi um and and ensure

that this can be kind of like the baseline financial infrastructure for for everyone. >> You you talk about resiliency a lot before we get into V4. Um you you've said resiliency is the key reason why many users and integrators trust a uh and why a has become one of the most trusted D5 protocols. The Dow has a prevetted multistakeholder process uh that ensures no junk assets are listed and the protocol doesn't take on any more risk than it should. Yeah. >> Talk talk to us about that prevetting process when when a curator or a risk manager is looking to come into the a DAO. Um how are you vetting them and generally what are you looking for in some of the participants in the DAO? Uh for for anyone who may be looking at getting involved. I think um the main important piece about this obviously

there's multiple stakeholders they have different kind of roles um from being risk managers um to being let's say uh governance delegates um to um to let's say um someone who are doing like the growth work as well and technical contributors like overlaps um and one important thing of of all this equation is incentives >> so what is the incentive for every single stakeholder to keep the system safe. And when we think about um a uh risk managers are typically paid uh at a fixed fee uh to ensure that the protocol is is safe and secure um and they have reputation at the stake. So when you think about more of like these um uh creator models um they're more like a hedge funds where uh their incentives is to actually uh take more uh risk and the

reason is that a lot of these strategies are commoditized uh on chain meaning you have two choices. you lower your fees which are already rock bottom or you take additional uh risk and try to find capital and this is why we've seen few weeks ago uh some of these issues with the vaults because you see um kind of like a curators taking more risk because they get pressure of acquiring new new capital uh down the line. So this is important to kind of acknowledge and the resiliency comes from the fact that everyone is incentivized to to protect the system and it's not a reallyentric thing because it works the same way on Ethereum. So obviously you have Ethereum stakers and uh nodes that basically uh protect the system by accepting um uh uh right form of blocks for example and not

upgrading the code base for if you know if someone writes some sort of a bad implementation. So there's that kind of like a guardianship that exists on on different levels in our uh stack. >> Yeah. And just kind of last thing on on this, is is there any really important takeaways or lessons that the DeFi community should have, you know, kind of hardcoded in our minds post this 1010 incident with regards to rehypothecation, recursive lending, just generally like the like the opaque off-chain kind of uh lack of transparency when it comes to this, you know, DeFi world. What are some of the key uh takeaways and and thoughts that we need to have going forward?

Yeah, I think uh the aspect of like um high yields is always um um there's something always might be behind that doesn't really necessarily u um might be above um the the risk expectations of of a lot of the uh users. Um I think that's that that's one of the aspect but also um kind of like um understanding you know where and how these systems work and and where the uh yield is coming from that is really important and luckily in DeFi it's really easy to understand uh when it's on chain when it's offchain then you need additional tools like proof of reserves uh and and so so forth. So, I think we're still in a in a world where if everyone is excited about um um some sort of

financial opportunity, that doesn't necessarily mean it's it's fully kind of uh safe for everyone. >> Yeah. In my role as a kind of a advocate in the DeFi ecosystem, seeing the space evolve almost a decade, I actually want to rather like protect the safe DeFi and and somehow ensure that there is enough uh tooling and information available um for everyone to understand like the differences. >> Yeah. >> Uh while still uh ensuring that the space is open and innovative. >> Yeah. >> And that's my kind of like a biggest uh concern is the offchain stuff. Yeah. how to verify it, how to understand like what's happening, who to trust, um, and what are the trust assumptions.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean it it's this off-chain component is aggressively growing because we're bringing these RWAs onchain. Yeah. >> Um, and so doing that requires the Yeah. proof of reserves, better oracle systems, etc. >> Um, so you guys spent the last couple years building V4. >> Um, apparently V3 wasn't good enough. I don't know. I mean, V3 is great. We've been using a for five years. Uh but V4 is the next uh you know interpretation of what D5 means next. Yeah. >> Talk to us about kind of what the improvements from V3 are, why V4 is so important and just kind of what you're looking to get out of that uh this next phase. >> Yeah, one of the interesting things is that we want to double down on this idea of uh concentrating uh capital. Um and

now for example in a V3 there is multiple markets. So you might have uh the prime in the core market on ethereum um and um you don't have uh a way of actually uh just share the liquidity. So uh whenever you create a new market on a uh you have to find a way of of seing the liquidity and typically um how to do that is to create incentives or rent the liquidity um the LPS from somewhere. So that's not really sustainable way. So the liquidity hub and spoke model allows to create markets on the spoke level and and create give credit lines from the liquidity hub to each spoke based on the um kind of like a scale and risk that uh the liquidity hub wants to subscribes to. And I think that model is very

unique because you can uh segregate risk uh while at the same time you are not segregating uh liquidity >> and there can be multiple liquidity hubs based on the risk profiles uh let's say the lower risk hub uh risk adjusted and and some sort of a um merging uh uh um uh hub as well. >> Well, that was always the push back to V2, right? because we saw like Cream Finance come out in 2020 and and and they're like, "All right, we're going to have isolated pools for each asset." >> Obviously, that didn't work. Um, but that was like the push back was like a has all these poolled assets. Uh, one bad collateral asset nukes the entire kind of design and obviously because of of of the DAO and the way that you guys have curated your risk management, that

has not happened. But V4 really takes that to the next level and almost like trenches out risk as if it was like a junior a senior trench kind of. >> Yeah. And typically even V3 like all the asset has uh supply and borrow caps and and limitations. So so so so there is a really good granular risk management there. Uh V4 just provides a lot of new tooling that makes um the jobs of risk managers uh a bit more advanced and and uh easier to to uh to do and additional um uh measures as well. But overall I think it's um really interesting uh uh overall foundation because uh spokes can be custom um and I think uh we'll see different kinds of custom implementations where V3 is more like a

monolithic uh codebase. >> Um we've had uh Chaos Labs, we've had Sergey from Chainlink, we've had these guys on the show. Uh these guys are partners of a when you're thinking and designing and scoping out a major upgrade like V4. Um how much are you looking at your partners and you're talking with them and working with them? Uh is it mostly internal or are you bringing this to the external partners and you're all collectively thinking about what the upgrade looks like? >> Very collective. There's a lot of uh people in pulse. So I I think overlaps while uh running a lot of the codebase there is contributors uh from different security teams uh contributions from other uh D members uh and and also uh from the larger of ecosystem. It's it's

a very uh collab collaborative uh process and it's also important because there's different stakeholders and also dependencies. So I think um it's really interesting to build in public. It's it's such a different world. uh it requires a lot of coordination um but also you get a really uh good results as well for the code quality. >> Well, we're coming up on time. We do have a gift for you. Um this has been part of our our theme of the of the week and just generally in in in the space now. Um return to fundamentals is our current slogan. It is our big it is our message to the masses. Um so from your perspective, from a perspective, what does this mean for the entire Ethereum community for for the industry? What does return to fundamentals mean to you

Stani? >> Yeah, I think fundamentals uh it means that you have to build something that is uh resilient but also uh creates upside for the all the stakeholders. So a protocol earns um we're going to earn 150 million this year as an example. It's a really good showcase of like how you build fundamentals um on chain. And I think I deserve that uh we deserve this t-shirt because uh of of what we're achieving with with the a fundamentals, but also it means that uh having good foundations and and and building something that is uh sticky and resilient.

>> All right. The other little game that we're doing here is we're building a Dev Connect playlist >> for on Spotify with all of our speakers. Um I'm going to put you on the spot here and ask you for a song. Uh what song would you like to add to the Dev Connect playlist? can be something that you like recently. It can be a favorite. >> Yeah. >> What what artist do you like? What's your kind of music taste? >> I think one uh good artist you should think about is uh Zenobi. So it's a X I um N OI. >> Zenobi. Okay. Very cool. >> And his tracks are really good. And he's gonna uh going to be doing a backtoback session uh today with another Rava DJ uh GI Vanter.

>> Okay. Uh, so it's going to be really uh >> far away place. That's one of his bangers. >> Yeah, that's a good one. So >> there it is. >> Add add to the list and um hope to see you all in RA. >> Yes, sir. >> Last thing for you, Sunny. We've got a lightning round. We have got 60 seconds. You've got yes or no questions. You can skip if you don't want to answer it. Um, and we'll finish off >> and we'll go for a quick standby and then we'll go. Ready? Three, two, one. >> [music] >> Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not [music] your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025 2026, you are missing the entire point. [music] Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. >> Lightning round live world TV. Just use blanket. >> That one was easy. Uh [laughter] >> just use a >> just use a Yeah. Uh uh what is the biggest challenge you've overcome in the past year? Simplicity. >> Simplicity.

>> In one to two sentences, describe where a will be in 2030. >> The biggest uh financial network in the world. >> Best RAV up until this point. >> Who are the people outside of A that you call to chat through ideas? >> Uh guy from Atheina. >> Uh fill in the blank. A v4 will be the backbone of all finance. >> Best place on earth and worst place on earth to live for crypto natives. >> Worst place to live uh will probably be um France.

>> Shout out to Mark. RIP Mark. I know you've gotten out of there. [laughter] And best place >> best place to live. Um I won't say something exotic. So I'm pretty comfortable in London so far. Let's see how the government will progress from here. But uh so far so good. >> Um a TVL has exceeded 50 billion. >> Mhm. >> Where will a TVL be in 2030? >> I think uh we'll be way beyond trillions at that point. >> Yeah. way beyond trillions. Just >> live from Rollup TV in Buenosares. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. We'll be right back with our next guest, Monae from Maker Dows Sky. Steanie, thank you so much, man.

>> Thank you so much. >> Fun to have you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, guys. [music] >> Yet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io.

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Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. >> Not your keys, not your co. >> Monet. Monet. Monae. Don't know your real name. Not going to ask. How how you doing, man? Good. It's been a long week, but a good week. >> I was worried you were going to come in here with like a a bad kid like like bag over your head or something. Be like with like a voice like Mon >> voice changer. [laughter] No, I I don't have that smoky the beer swag. >> That was pretty iconic. That was iconic.

>> Is Is Monae supply is that a take on money supply or the painter Monae? Is it >> Did you just miss? >> But uh yeah, I think the handles were taken if I wanted to be money supply. Well, you know, X is allowing uh handle changes now. Uh I would not recommend it. I think yours yours is quite ingrained in the brains of DeFi, but I did change mine um like a month ago or something. >> Yeah, I wonder if there's like some stable coin or something that's going to be bitting on the >> Yeah, I have enough money for that. >> Yeah, man. What a what a wild month in DeFi the last uh four to six weeks. I mean, we saw the event on 1010. We saw uh a ton of other things happening. tons tons to talk about, but I'm a bit

curious like what your story is, right? I don't think that you you've ever been on the show. You're an angel investor. You're involved deeply in the Sky ecosystem with Spark, but also you were one of the core players at Makerdown in the early DeFi days. What What's like your 2018 to 2025 like lore? Uh yeah. >> Yeah. So, I I actually uh I didn't even start getting into crypto until like 2019, 2020. Um previously, I worked in fintech. uh generally like pretty boring stuff, just traditional lending. Um but I had like sort of started dabbling into crypto and then right around DeFi summer I got laid off from my old job which was very fortuitous. I got like fired upwards essentially and just landed on my feet in the maker ecosystem. >> Wow. That's awesome.

>> And then since then you've been effectively like a part of the team as a contributor but then kind of spun off done your own angel investing and kind of some side projects too. >> Yeah, a little bit. um a little bit of Angeline and mainly the DeFi space because that's just kind of where I'm comfortable. But uh I worked at Block Analytica for five years almost. Uh they're the like original risk team for Maker Dow and they've been branching out a little bit and then uh recently I switched over to join Spark as head of strategy full time. >> Well, I mean Spark's absolutely cooking10 billion dollars TVL. I'm not sure if TVL matters anymore, but we're going to use it as a metric today. Um man, so you guys have kind of been on this massive rise. Uh, we actually had Grove in here. Uh, Kevin, he was like,

"I welcome all the competition. I'm ready for Spark to come out our throats. Like, let's go. We're we're gonna go headtohead in the Sky as stars." What is it like to build in this sky ecosystem as a star? Kind of like the the the people that you work with, the uh teams, the contributors. How's your experience been? >> Uh, overall really good. So, I actually still work with my old team, the BA guys, pretty closely. They're kind of like the core Sky Risk team. They help sort of set the rules of the road uh so to speak for all the stars. Right now we were the first star that launched. Uh Grove is kind of coming up and scaling up uh close behind. Uh I think for the next couple months it's probably going to be just us two, but we have a you know a pretty productive relationship with Grove and the steakhouse guys. But

um I don't know if if you all saw the framework guys, they actually just had this announcement about OEX. >> It's going to be like an incubator. Uh they're already starting to deploy capital. So, uh, the the sort of environment is going to be a lot more competitive, but I think we still have some some edges and some niches that we can lean into. >> And and how do you Yeah, go ahead. >> No, I just feel like Sky is so underrepresented right now. Like, it just feels like this is a beast that's happening. Um, and people are focused on a ton of other stable coin projects, the stable chains, Athenas, etc. Um, I know it's like a mutually kind of like positive sum attitude, but it it feels slept on. We have Vance and Michael on the show maybe every two weeks or so and they're just non-stop. Like it's like we

can't have a show with them without getting Sky mentioned at least once in like some some context. Well, what's it like having Vance and Michael as like backers, as like friends, as advocates now now with uh Obex uh coming out? What are you expecting from the framework guys and through this project? What do you want to see out of it? I mean, I think they're awesome partners. Like, uh, Run and and Vance and Michael, they all chat quite a bit. I actually was in San Francisco maybe a month and a half ago and I I dropped in on them. Um, they're bringing a lot of interesting like ideas and I think they're pushing Sky particularly towards interesting like sort of net new uh, deep pin projects. They've got this uh USDA, they've got Daylight, they've got a few other projects that they're trying to like bring uh not just like boring RWA

tokenizing on chain, but like new asset classes into the system. And Sky is kind of like in an a unique um a unique position to bootstrap these and fund them because we're onchain native. We're familiar with cryptoeconomic systems. we have uh we're a bit riskaverse, but I think we we're willing to go in on projects that are new uh if the fundamentals are right. So, I think yeah, I'm excited to work with them. Uh again, they're like they're also in some respects our competitor, but I think a rising tide lifts all the boats. >> What would you say uh the stars are competing for? Is it incentives in Maker Dow and and you know there there's a competitive dynamic, but also you're growing the Sky ecosystem as a whole. in in what regards you collabing and what in what regards you competing? >> Yeah, so like collaboration first. So

generally like if the Sky ecosystem is delivering like a good uh balanced sort of product suite, uh it's going to grow the amount of USDS in circulation and then we all have more like balance sheet to work with. We'll all have more capital that we can be allocating and and earning spread on. Um the flip side of that is we are all kind of competing. We're fishing out of the same pond. we're competing for the same like access to the same balance sheet and generally like as we um as we are all kind of fighting to earn as much yield as we can it's it's actually going to push up the the savings rate that we're paying um to Skye's end users which is again it's great for efficiency for providing the best user experience but um naturally there's going to be a bit of a margin

compression I think from that >> and then also you know we're all kind of working open source we're leaking all of our alpha by design so people can >> if they see someone like Spark if we're if we're earning really good money on a strategy like people will naturally come in and kind of follow along with us. >> Yeah. You've been doing a lot of writing about kind of what happened to 1010 and just in general about risk management in DeFi, collateral asset management, you know, uh surface area for risk and lending. Um let's just start from the top, right? So Spark has scaled to $10 billion in TVL. which surface area in the risk modeling becomes uh most uh I guess widened as you scale in terms of capital size like what you know let's say at the smaller stages of lending you're focused on you know X risks as you scale to larger there's Y and Z

risks that become more pressing maybe talk us through like what your mental model is for risk risk management at scale for DeFi lending >> yeah when you're when you're you know pushing the sort of size that we are like we've got 10 billion roughly at TVL and then we have about 3 billion allocated to the Spark liquidity layer. Um there's a fairly limited opportunity set that's actually you know going to allow us to go in without crushing the yield. Um you know Bitcoin, ETH, uh liquid staking tokens, uh basis trades and then certain like sort of offchain collateralized lending and then RWAS. So uh we really focus on just like the most scalable opportunities. We get plenty of inbounds from people who are doing really cool strategies like sort of

smaller tokenized hedge fund strategies um smaller collateral assets but it's just not a fit for us. Um, I think we're we're really focusing on scaling into uh a smaller number of opportunities because that also gives us the ability to really spend a lot of time doing due diligence on each new thing we're adding and then having continuous monitoring. [clears throat] >> And then there's fewer individual like tail risks that could uh lose us so much money that we exhaust our our capital. >> Okay. So um spark is effectively you know responsible for you know using this capital and getting the best yield with the lowest possible risk. >> Yes. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Okay. So um you guys using Redstone I believe for oracles. They are one of our they're basically our main oracle partner but we actually for Sparkland which is our our in-house lending market. >> We use a uh median of Redstone, Chronicle and Chain Link uh which you know it's it's extra resilient like even if one of the providers has some sort of downtime if they get like rugged by a cloud flare outage for example >> happens to the best of us >> then we still have the other two providers who are um you know hopefully going to be delivering the the right prices. >> Yeah. So we said Stan on I don't know if you saw him you know walk out we talking about V4 right and how basically more or less in my terms they're basically tunching out uh uh risk based on

different assets and then allowing a more kind of like customizable uh lending market as a result of that uh in cross asset collateralization this is something that is pretty unique to crypto you know we have pers and you can do cross margin on pers up to 100x I know that's not what happens on spark but that is something that people do. And if you look at the markets today, that is probably why the markets are going down aggressively because there you have these people that are literally margining their assets at together while they're all collapsing at different rates and then they have to pay them back and it's just anyway um which which during like a systemwide you know outage or like liquidation event like 1010, what is Spark's uh or what what did Spark do successfully to manage that cross asset collateral? How do you guys

approach that design? uh from the risk perspective. >> Yeah, we I mean again we're like really only going into like the highest scale most liquid assets. So um we're kind of in a lucky position that we were not touching any of these longtail tokenized hedge funds and we're not dealing with you know Doge or uh even smaller assets like small cap DTI tokens. I think I believe on 1010 some of the oracle prints for stuff like uni or like balance or different assets like this they moved so quickly that a actually acrewed like very small amounts but some bad debt just because they had like an oracle print >> like 20% down in a single candle essentially >> [clears throat] >> um we only deal with ETH Bitcoin uh basically large cap assets and then uh

you know RWA so we're pretty much fully unscathed um I don't think we really have much interest in dabbling into like the longer end of the risk curve because there's just there's like pretty limited scale there. But um yeah, it's something that we consider and uh I also think you know using redundant oracles stuff like this it can help avoid some of the issues that other platforms have seen. >> The flip side of this is demand and you talked a lot about the collateral management and making sure there's no bad debt and sticking to that asset universe of of really only the top assets. Um and you've reached you know $10 billion in scale of that. Um what's the flip side of that? What does the demand look like? What is the sca the landscape for those who are looking for this type of yield? Is it institutional

clients? Is it retail clients? Uh is it emerging markets? Where are you seeing most of the demand come from uh for these products? >> Yeah, I I think like the biggest new sources of demand that we're really excited to address um going forward next year is um there's a ton of people who want fixed rate lending. uh mainly still against you know kind of Bitcoin ETH but a lot of funds they're willing to pay even a few percent higher to have that certainty of like a fixed rate for one month three month something like this um it's something that we can't really serve in DeFi presently but new infrastructure like Morpho V2 is going to be coming in that'll that'll help serve this we're also tooling up to be able to meet some of our clients uh some you know large institutional counterparties in offchain uh

collateralized lending stuff like Anchorage >> and setting the proper infrastructure to have like real transparency for that and make it very resilient. Um, and then one other product that I'm really excited for is uh we're going to be launching essentially like a prime brokerage offering uh Spark Prime and this will allow hedge funds uh basis traders, people doing delta neutral strategies to um access like basically internal leverage into the strategy. And for us it's beneficial because we also we have like a senior claim on their actual collateral. We're not just holding their rapper token. Uh we actually like hold their assets and they're trading through our infrastructure. >> Cool. Um later today we're going to have Paul from Morpho come on. Uh how are you guys currently working with Morpho and

and how do you anticipate that will shift with Morpho V2? >> Yeah. Uh Morpho is one of our best partners. I like I love Paul. I love the team. They're super hungry. Um and I think they're making a lot of really smart design decisions. Um, currently the I would say like the most exciting stuff we do with them is we partner with uh their new kind of like CDFI like DeFi mullet offerings that they have coming on board. So, as an example, Coinbase um launched onchain lending against Bitcoin. They're potentially going to roll out new assets, I'm assuming, uh, in the future. And at a certain point, we were up to 90% of the supply into that pool. So, as soon as somebody opens a new loan on Coinbase, we supply an equal amount of capital and, you know, basically balance the market. So, Moro, they don't need to worry about balancing

a two-sided market. We're just like sort of that marginal supplier. So, I'm really excited about that. I think there's going to be many more of these DeFi mullet things happening and uh you know, we would love to be the capital provider for those for V2. Um, >> can I can I just add something? So, uh, I was I was hearing from an unnamed, uh, Bitcoin fi chain that that is yet to launch, uh, that, you know, there's some collaboration potentially there with Morpho and that there's this group of Bitcoiners that do not want to use CBBTC and they also do not want to use Bass or Ethereum or anything. So, like there's like this kind of conflict of interest with that product with like the hardcore Bitcoiners. Now, obviously, there's a lot of success there, and it's a great it's like the perfect top of funnel for Morpho, similar to like Phantom with

their per on Hyperlid, you know, but but there's there's this weird uh dynamic happening where some of these some of these offerings uh let's just say the lending markets need to change their strategy for like the Bitcoiners who have a lot of the the size uh who want to use a different product. >> Yeah, I mean, I I do think there's we've spoken with plenty of people who want to hold native Bitcoin only. um could be for trust reasons, could be for like tax reasons. There's there's any number of reasons people want that. Um we are going to tool up again for like dealing with custodians. So people who don't mind holding the Bitcoin in regulated custody, we should be able to lend to them, which is very um in demand. Uh and then there's also a lot of innovation happening in like the Bitcoin L2 space and you know projects like I think

Babylon is releasing a a service where you can lock Bitcoin on the Bitcoin chain and then sort of like port it over and use it as collateral on external chains like like Ethereum like base but also potentially Bitcoin L2s. I don't think we're going to be a like an early adopter uh of those technologies because we would rather have you know someone else prove it out kind of make sure that it's Lindy but then you know once it's kind of reached that uh stability point then we can kind of come in and bring the the scale to it. >> Um I'm curious where we we always talk about like where the next buyer is when when we think about the markets but when it comes to >> Sure as hell isn't us we're already all in. We're not gonna ask you that [laughter] where where those guys come from, but I am curious where the next

like then where you know we also talked about where the yield comes from. And so in this vein I'm thinking like I is the current landscape of yield onchain is this sufficient for a a thriving environment? Is this sufficient for growth or are we or are we thinking about where the next source of yield comes from? Yeah, I think um you know I think this is kind of playing into like the framework guys and what they're bringing to the table like um you know of course you can always tokenize [clears throat] uh T- bills >> people are already doing that uh CLLO's Grove actually is recently just uh scaled up their CLLO allocation to I believe a billion but some of these new products you know solar back financing you know energy and AI that's kind of like the two biggest mega trends that

are very very capital intensive and in many respects they're not actually well served by the existing financing system. >> So I think uh you know if if crypto can like crack the code for that then we can become the center of financing like the most important technological innovations and that'll drive like really really sustainable high quality yield. >> Yeah. And and this is not necessarily increasing the the yield itself the quantity right going from say 7% to 12%. That's not really what what is happening here. It's more about diversifying the sources of yield and people can kind of pick and choose and create these different structured products that expose them to different industries. Is is that kind of like what you know we had DeFi summer we we know lending and borrowing had emissions we had yield farming. We had all that and and now

we're entering this institutional wave. You know if we're looking at DeFi 3.0 maybe we already did that back way back when but you know four whatever what was that? Was that like the [laughter] Wonderland? >> That was wonderland. Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, we call that DeFi 2.0 magic internet money. >> Jesus. >> So, what you know, whatever era this is, what whatever the next era of DeFi is, it's a more institutional one. Is is that what we like is that what you think the the landscape is going to look like? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that uh it's really about just having scale and diversification for us at least particularly. Um, so even when there's not anybody who really wants to lever up on Bitcoin, you know, the per markets are dead, there's no good like basis delta neutral strategies, we'll have uncorrelated sources of yield,

infrastructure financing, maybe some RWAs, um, you know, sort of consumer credits, uh, all the different sort of sources of yield that you can pick from, including some of these net new ones. Um, I think that's going to make >> the whole stable coin industry much more resilient and less cyclical. And and last follow up on this because it feels like we're kind of putting together a thesis here. We've h had this um this lack of access to the stable coin um >> trade basically >> trade. Exactly. People want exposure to stable coins. They really believe in stable coins. >> Well, not stable coins. They want exposure. >> Well, exactly. They want they want exposure to the stable coin market, right? Because we believe we believe in the growth of stable coins. And it and it feels like um without getting into the private markets and betting on new

stable coins, one way to access the stable coin market is to get access and exposure to the yield and the yield sources. And as we diversify the yield sources, um you know, what what would you say is positioned for growth? We're going to get scale, we're going to get diversification of yield sources. And it it seems very bare market resilient like you said when people aren't trading on pers, people aren't lending on their Bitcoin. this is still a market that is going to continue to grow. What is the best way to get exposure to the growth of this industry? Putting aside all the existing things that have have, you know, been here with with easy easy access.

>> And it can't be the Sky token or the Spark token. Sorry. [laughter] >> Oh man, you're killing me. Um those would have been my first two answers. Um some of our other, you know, brethren subdow tokens, but yeah, I mean, I think these infrastructure finance um things are are very compelling. I haven't actually like looked into how like their sort of equity token is going to work, but I think it's super interesting. Um I think that there's going to be a lot of innovation in asset management. Some of this is going to be coming from, you know, existing like large big bracket bank um asset managers coming on chain and starting to do risk curation. But I think there are also some like DeFi native uh businesses that are doing this and as there's like more opportunities

for them to allocate and it also gets a little more complicated to like balance all these factors. I think that's um that's going to be a big uh area for growth. And then some of these sort of like off-chain to onchain conduit projects um like Maple, we we work pretty closely with them. We have about 630 million allocated presently. Um I think stuff of that nature is is potentially going to be a really resilience and uh and good business. >> And what is the value acrruel uh for those assets right now? Is it like you guys have 10 10 billion in TVL? You're monetizing this, you know, what what is what does it look like uh when it comes to flows and value acrruel?

>> Yeah. So actually uh just uh just earlier this week uh we posted a a proposal essentially for governance to approve like a spark value acrruel plan essentially. So, we need to retain some capital in our treasury for basically risk underwriting. Um, making sure that our end users are never going to be the first ones to lose money. They're always like last in line to take any haircuts. And, you know, to date, we haven't had any. We're we're conducting our business to avoid that. But then once we earn enough to have like excess of capital, that should get returned to the token. And, uh, initially we're going to do that in the form of buybacks. But uh you know we're open to kind of meeting the market where they are what what sort of value acrruel like specifics the mechanism whether that's buyback staking whatever they they want most

>> the the revenue meta strengths again >> the revenue meta >> mon we're building a Spotify playlist uh for dev connect >> dev connect Spotify >> and uh right we we'd like to ask you what your addition is going to be >> Spotify playlist >> could be any favorite artist you that you listen to song that you like recently >> uh I was listening to Miles Davis on the plane here Um, kind of blue. That whole album. >> Yeah. >> Classic. >> Uh, blue and green. >> Yeah, that's Well, that's a very common one, but if you're feeling mellow, >> what's your, uh, what's your song of choice? >> So, what it never entered my mind, my funny valent. >> Yeah.

>> Mona, man, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> It's fun. Cheers. Pleasure. Thanks, Mon. >> All right, guys. Quick break. Uh, we will be back. We got a whole sle of guests. Uh, Monet was great. No financial advice. This guy looks great here. Um, he didn't say it. I said it. See you guys in a second. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys. not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage,

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>> Nothing. Um, >> here you were muted, guys. >> There we go. There you are, guys. Thanks for calling in. >> Um, yeah, excited. Excited to be here. >> Absolutely. Um, we've got uh partnership to announce here. Uh, Elnet is one of the um major Lat financial institutions. It's really exciting to partner with ZK Sync. Uh Marian, it's your first time on the show. Maybe you could give us a little bit of an intro and and talk to us about Elnet and why you chose to partner with ZK Sync.

>> Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to be here and sharing this space with Alex. Uh we are really excited about uh this evolution and how the the industry is evolving to connect the in institutional world with the web 3 decentralized world. So, Elnet is a nonprofit organization that operates uh blockchain networks built for institutional needs. Uh we integrate infrastructure solutions and ecosystems to scale emerging technologies with real impact in the real world. Um I mean solutions like a real world asset tokenization, verifiable credentials, traceability, financial inclusion and more. And um we're also an executing agency for multilateral organizations and we lead strategic projects for them. So our mission is like really clear is to promote the adoption of blockchain technology um and in the development of

of of digital public goods and and open standards uh to help this uh this more traditional uh entities to to jump and to innovate in places where they feel comfortable doing it. So that's um very do >> Yeah. And >> please >> sorry. Yeah. regarding sync the second part of your question. I'm sorry. So um yeah we are uh implementing a pilot uh it's um a resultbased financing pilot that we're implementing for a multilateral uh organization and um actually uh for people who may not know what this is about a result-based finance is actually widely used by

governments and and multilaterals because it aligns incentives with with real outcomes and what we're doing is using uh the technology of previdiums uh because previdiums help us um address uh some of the issues that institution have uh sometimes when they are jumping to blockchain technology which is the privacy specifically and to run on like um permission uh environments. So um yeah sorry I interrupted you. >> No no no I was just going to say I mean first of all congratulations to to the both of you. Um we are so excited to be in Argentina because we're in a place where uh this is the technology that we've built namely stable coins for uh you know uh escaping currencies that are

you know being devalued here in Argentina but largely just Latin America. uh it's really a life a lifeboat for uh a lot of these emerging markets and you know it feels like hosting these events here in these in these jurisdictions really provides more value to the local community. Um and with regards to Elnet and just kind of the the work that you guys are doing in Latin America I mean here we've had multiple uh news for uh stable coins and different types of of partnerships come out. So happy to uh hear that this one is coming out this week. Alex, wish you were here. Um, as well from your end, what does this mean for ZK Sync in terms of institutional adoption in terms of your Latin America global strategy? Right. I mean, it's very clear that this is a region of the world where uh you stable coins, crypto and blockchain

rails are already being widely adopted much faster than than the western world. From your perspective, from the ZKYNC perspective, why Pervidiums, why Latin America, why Elnet? What does this mean to you guys? Uh we are really excited for this partnership in particular and in for for LATAM expansion in general. Um the idea of results-based uh funding really resonates with me. This is how we do work at at Ziki Sync. We're we're focusing on results and results only matter and I think we should be doing more of that in crypto in general. focusing on results rather than just pure intentions and um the uh expansion of crypto into real world is what motivates me personally very strongly. This is the part of the mission of

Zikync. Our mission is to advance freedom for the world through the adoption of blockchain technologies and with uh with MLE and with all the reforms that are happening in Argentina. This is the part of the world where the freedom accelerates the most today. it really really happy to to be able to contribute to to this through the uh through the technologies that that can actually be embraced by real financial institutions by real businesses. This is what previdium is about. So at Ziki Sync, we have realized that the highest ROI today to improve the adoption of blockchains is to go and work in partner with the traditional um financial system uh uh traditional institutions and and and banks and and uh real world businesses um to get uh out of the

cryptonative bubble, out of the small circle of use cases that that we've been exploring for the last couple of years and really get into everyday's life of people and uh businesses and make their you know uh make them more efficient. Enable transactions at a much lower cost 247 instant settlement and to do that privacy is a non-dispensable requirement. You cannot really replace you reflect the traditional business processes of the real world businesses onchain fully disclosing everything that what's happening there customer data your business uh insights your supply chain uh details that's a non-starter like no real business would do that if if your bank was fully transparent and

would publish every single transaction you're you're doing that that's just you know inconceivable. So this is why we have been working on previdiums as a highest priority and previdiums are now entering the [snorts] uh acceleration stage. Uh what is previdium? A previdium is essentially private Ethereum. It's a private instance of an EVM chain that is rooted in Ethereum. It is settling on Ethereum. So it's connected with uh the global um digital asset economy. But it's a chain that you control and you can shape it in whatever way you need for your business, for your needs. Um, so you decide on the sequencing on the data visibility. You can have very granular control over who can see the

data, who can transact and where where you store the data and how you um organize various aspects of this chain. and it it's your sovereignty and yet you're connected to the public chains and to other private inter. >> Yeah. Awesome. Um I I'm uh especially curious because um you know we've heard a lot about Providium. ZKYNC has an RWA institutional strategy and it's it's really really played out. Um and and you know we've seen that I think you guys are in the top chains when it comes to RWAs and stable coins. uh and we've seen the market react to this quite positively. Uh now with providiums, another thing that's fallen uh into

favor has been privacy and we've heard a lot of uh privacy advocates uh come on the show while we've been here in Argentina. Um and and you know just to round this out the trifecta here is that we are also in a place where this technology is particularly important. We saw the government uh have poor fiscal policy leads to inflation. Uh and that is why it feels so relevant that we're here today uh and this week during this conference. Um on on Elnet's perspective, you you've got a mandate to help push forward blockchain and help push forward financial technology that can help solve some of these problems that have been prevalent in this area. And so, uh, Marian, I'm I'm curious from your side, how has, uh, the Providium and the privacy element there helped,

uh, the infrastructure and helped you accomplish your missions? Maybe you could just talk a bit about what Elnet is trying to accomplish as a whole and why privacy is so important to that mission. >> Well, that's um, a great question because uh, what I think it's it's has been missing until now. It's the right infrastructure. So institutions are feel uh confident to jump and and try and innovate with blockchain technology. So uh what we're doing is we're trying to actually um make blockchain truly usable for these institutions. So um the thing is uh for some time now we have been uh I believe we have been pushing them to follow web three rules somehow to adapt to the spaces and the infrastructure that we built uh within the ethos of web

3 and institutions probably are not ready just yet to do that. They need it's going to be a transition and we know we're gonna need to on board them in a way that they can like they can be comfortable. They can try they can feel uh they can trust the technology first and go step by step. And this step by step sometimes means that uh we need to build infrastructure that feels a little bit more like close to the kind of of models and systems that they have now. And it doesn't mean uh I mean it's there there's I guess there's this sweet spot between what they are now and and where they are they are now and what where they are going to be in 10 years or or 20 years but we need to get there and

it's not going to be from one day to the next. So we need to help them to jump uh confidently uh to the technology and and try and uh also um educate them in how the technology itself uh is uh it's something you can trust uh and uh you and I mean we have been talking a lot about trustless this week and so I guess it's a process and I guess for more traditional uh institutions it's going to be a little harder to understand why and how because we have been in the space for some time but not everybody is uh so into this topics uh as much as us.

So I guess uh for for Lnet uh our idea is to to make blockchain truly usable and uh you know um help them on board and build uh things on blockchain and help them understand how this can benefit a lot of users and the thing is um when institutions adopt something they bring millions of people with them and that's where the real adoption comes. So uh that's our goal to be here like at the intersection of these institutions and the fully decentralized world and also because it's it's not always easy to for them to uh talk to each other and understand it's like sometimes it's like they are speaking different languages. So when you see like I don't know a sea level from a bank and a traditional bank and I don't know a blockchain architect uh that

won't end well because [laughter] they probably won't understand each other unless you try to meet the needs and understand the needs of each one of them have and they have regulations they have compliance they have a lot of things I mean institutions and we don't need to underestimate their needs but try to meet uh all the the requirements and I guess uh what uh CK sync is doing with preidium is uh understanding this uh that that sometimes institutions need to meet certain requirements and they need infrastructure they can trust. Uh so that's why we choose to to um work with them for this pilot because uh it's it's a way to connect these worlds that are not completely separated.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um uh one one thing that I know about Elnet is that you guys are working with governments. You're working with these institutions. You're you're bringing enterprises and governments uh together with web 3 solutions. Could you just give us a couple of success stories? Um you know, talk to us about some of the governments that you've helped. Uh I I can give I can give one actually. You mentioned you're you're right. When governments come on board, they bring millions of people with them. Uh you know, we're we're actually in the Lambda class office. uh they have a partnership with uh SORA uh which is a digital ID product uh and I believe they've uh brought the digital ID of of millions of Argentinians on chain and and they're using ZK proofs uh to help verify the identity of this uh from Elnet's perspective is there some

success stories that you can share about how web 3 technology is helping these government institutions >> yes absolutely uh we have been working with digital identity in many countries we have worked and we are soon going to be part of the presidential elections in Peru. uh they choose uh our blockchain to to run this uh I mean with [snorts] it's going to be uh a pilot but it's including uh millions of users in Peru that are going to be voting for the first time uh in in a different way and it's going to be uh on chain and that that's a a huge improvement and it's a hu huge step uh for for government to do that but we also have uh uh some other projects that We are leading uh there's

a couple of projects we are leading together with uh another multilaterals like um we're for example we are running a project uh with 11 central banks um on the region uh to test um CBDC's and uh there's another one um I mean they are testing they are trying to understand how it works and they are trying to learn more about the technology and uh trying to see uh how I don't know different uh crossber payments can be in in a different uh context and uh it's an early stage project and uh but it's really huge and there's a lot of interest and also there's a big project that we have in Latin America um focus on um small holder farmers uh digital wallets

for small holder farmers to improve in um financial inclusion. So, uh we are working on that and um I guess there's a lot of uh success cases and and most of them includes multiple actors like governments, private private sector and um startups and like very innovative solutions that uh when we connect all the all the actors and they work together uh there's a lot of things that we can do and we can push and we can implement successfully. Amazing, Alex. Man, I I gotta pass it to you to close us out here. We've got the uh return to fundamentals shirt. Um it really truly feels like uh this this

LNET ZKYNC collaboration, you know, albeit perhaps a bit less sexy than NFTTS or than high-risisk DeFi or a bit more boring with stable coins and tokenization in institutions than some of our, you know, DeFi summer escapades. This is where the real fundamental value of the blockchain technology that ZK Sync has built, that Ethereum has built, and that all of us are really here for. um you know within this lens of really getting back to fundamentals and building the important infrastructure rails in Latin America. Uh just close us out here with your with your uh viewpoint of this partnership uh holistically as well as generally what this kind of fundamental uh viewpoint means to you as a deep deep uh cipher punk.

>> Uh well I I agree with you. Someone has to do this. So what what as Mariana just said uh when you if you want to on board institutions you need to speak their language. So you need to uh understand how they see the world and you don't come and impose the your [snorts] ideals in in your language in your cyber punk uh um world view and and come and say like well let let's just like you know change things and do it completely differently 180 degrees from what you're used to. No, you have to meet them where they are and then you can offer them the um technologies that uh incorporate the values of crypto and you can show them how these values actually create a lot of business value for them. This is this

product work and a lot of hard BD work and communications and translating of uh um the um basically education where where you explain like here here's hey here are the incorruptible uh chains starting with Ethereum and then here's what you can do with ZK and this is previdium and this is what you get with uh all of the cool properties. So I see it as absolutely aligned with Cypher Punk values because we are bringing them into the Ethereum economy. We expanding Ethereum. We're helping Ethereum grow. We're helping Ether as an asset to be a the strongest the most uh um appropriate store of value in this economy and and

strengthening the uh sustainability of Ethereum through this. Uh and we're also helping the world. We're bringing the more efficiency. we're bringing more freedom to the people of the world and that that's core to our mission of advancing freedom. So on our side like we we're going to be investing heavily in institutions but we're also going to be doing a lot of core cypher punk work and and you'll hear from us also soon on this >> absolutely you guys have done it. Yeah >> guys thank you for calling in. It's been absolute pleasure. Congratulations on the part of fundamentals. If you guys were here we'd give you a shirt. Uh [laughter] we've we've been gifting all of our guest shirts guys. Thanks for calling in today.

>> Thank you so much. >> All righty, guys. >> We'll see you soon. >> All right, guys. We'll go for a quick standby and we'll be right back. We've got our next set of guests coming in live here in the studio and we will be right back. >> Yeet is built for big moments, the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. [music] Secure your

coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest [music] chains for stable coin transfers and payments.

Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. Kalshi is the world's largest [music] prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. yours private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia [music] underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinifi gives you just [music] that. >> Beautiful. Guys, welcome back. Rollup TV. We are live Benosirus. We've got Mike, CEO of Etheri, good friend of the show. Mike, how you enjoying the city? >> Oh, it's awesome. Uh, I don't know what I was expecting, but I feel like it's exceeded my expectations. >> First time here?

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Nice. Yeah, it's it's great. It's been beautiful weather, good vibes. I mean, yeah, >> everything's great except for don't check the charts. Do not check [laughter] the charts. >> Yeah, I checked it just before I came in. I'm like down another 10%. >> Yeah, we're literally just losing our entire life savings while streaming. We just do it for love of the game, man. I mean, come on. >> That's why we're here. >> I mean, Arthur Hayes is dumping Ether File on our head. Come on. I thought he was our boy. Come on. We do a PL with Arthur and he's just dumping on our heads. >> Look, he's a traitor. Uh I don't know. you know, uh I think uh uh he probably has a perspective on like short-term, long-term what the market is doing. Etherfi has ETH beta, so you know, I

don't take it as anything. >> Well, I mean, he did he did kind of >> he dumped less etheri than other tokens. >> Well, he also bulled at 30 cents. Yeah. >> You know, when nobody else is really, you know, going to look around, right? So, there is something there. >> And he also had a thesis that we we uh align on which is the revenue meta. And you guys have real revenue. You're one of the few crypto projects that has real revenue. >> Yeah, we're making tons of money. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, the hockey stick growth, I mean, we I think we we we had you on a permission list. Um and that was like kind of the the beginning almost of this hockey stick. Feels like it's really really accelerated. What's the actual numbers in terms of the acceleration here?

>> Yeah, it's been great. Um uh the sort of waterfall is we've got about 200,000 registered accounts. Out of those, we've got about 50,000 cards uh that users have issued. um uh they're spending about one and a half million a day on average and you know continuing to uh go up uh which is pretty good. Yeah, that makes it you know by far the largest non-custodial uh card out there. Um uh which is a good start. Uh but uh our goal is you know obviously to be the largest crypto card and then just the largest neo bank in the world. >> Incredible bank. >> And so what what is your goal while you're out here in Buenosaris? In past conferences, I've seen you with a QR code on your back and signing people up handtohand combat. Is it still doing things that uh are are activating users one by one? Are you taking a more

scalable approach? What what is the approach these days at conferences? >> Uh so this conference is more about partnerships and uh I mean it's more of a builder conference, right? Less, you know, less VD stuff. Um so, uh yeah, I'm the solo etheri representative uh here uh this week. Uh uh honestly just doing a bunch of panels talking to people uh making sure we have some representation. >> Nice. Um man, so we had talked about how your customer segment was really like we don't even need to go I think it was it was with a child. We were like we don't even need to get you know the world's you know credit card users onto either fire. We just need to get the uh crypto users that will persist through the next 10 years in crypto uh as core users. And Avanchaw had this in you weren't on

this, but there was this insane bull thesis about how the the percentage of the world's millionaires in like 10 years is going to be so heavily skewed to crypto >> which was an amazing like very good top signal um [laughter] at at the time in hindsight. Um >> is that still very much your thesis? Yeah. So, our starting point is uh define natives because that's you generally when you're launching a new product, you want to start with your most fanatical users, the ones that have the the strongest need. Uh then the goal is to start expanding into sort of broader uh crypto users, people that use CFI, for example, uh but aren't comfortable with DeFi because it's way too complicated. Um uh and then go after the normies. So 2026 is when we really start g getting into the uh singledigit millions number of users which you can really only get by going after sort of

the broader uh crypto user market. Um uh DeFi just doesn't have that many uh yeah DeFi is probably like a couple thousand uh whales and then maybe another million you know people that want to be uh whales. >> And so as you're thinking about user acquisition you're starting with most fanatical users that's certainly the crypto natives power users here. um as you start to expand outwards um have you have you started I I guess this is going to be an estimate not looking for any exact numbers but what barometer how how much of the the core crypto power users would you say that you've activated >> um you know it's hard to say I mean anytime I you know I give a talk or or or I meet folks it seems like you know a meaningful percentage maybe 20% of

people 30% of people uh you know raise their hands that they you know they've tried the uh which is pretty good. I mean, crypto conference attendees are about, you know, that's like a a subset of the subset of, you know, DeFi users. Uh so, I think there's still room to grow. I mean, I think we can get to a couple hundred thousand active users just in the DeFi space. Um but, uh but to get into the millions, you really need to go broader. Uh and it's a large market. I mean, just to put in perspective, um the average user on Ether spends about $5,000 a month >> on the card. Like that's a lot. I mean that that's that's a big number for a NEO bank like that would be on the order of like hundreds of dollars maybe a

thousand dollars a month. U so uh so these are still very much like high net worth uh like you know crypto uh crypto natives. um uh once we get out into the uh you know the broader space that number will come down but it's still entirely um possible to build a a billion dollar revenue business just focusing on crypto users that want the ability to uh to on an offer want the ability to use their uh their crypto and that need actually I mean being here in Buenosirus is >> uh you know a good good place to be talking about this because here in Brazil I mean this is um >> people need this like this is just objectively the easiest way for them to get into dollars off of their, you know, local currency, which is, you know,

problematic. Um, uh, and to be able to get exposure to uh, uh, to other asset types. Today, that's mostly crypto stuff, but soon that's going to include stocks. It's going to include uh, you know, index funds, things that normally people um, in developing markets just don't have access to. >> Yeah, we're really banking the unbanked. >> No. Yeah. Right. For sure. That's exactly right. >> Yeah. I mean it feels like it feels like we had this all of this ready like six years ago we we had the introduction of stable coins we had the blockchain rails and all this and then we we spent a lot of time building a whole bunch of stuff and then now it feels like the industry's came back to like okay we're just going to solve crossber remittances stable coins payments >> well I know I I would actually say that

like talking about let's say stocks like tokenized equities there have been like versions of this I mean who still remembers like mirror for yeah I mean but that was terrible Right. I mean, yeah, it didn't go so well. Um, but now we have like a real version of that. I mean, I'm a big fan of Ono, uh, for example, but there's I know there's other players that are doing it, but like that's a viable, uh, version of tokenized equities. Uh, that is taking, you know, registered assets, turning them into bare assets, and giving people, you know, the ability to to hold them without crazy slippage or weird, you know, dagging and other other stuff that normal people don't want to deal with. And that's that's like it's been a matter of months since that's even been possible. Yeah.

>> Right. Layer twos that are basically free that don't cost, you know, tens hundreds of dollars in gas to transact on. Like how long has that been around? Like I don't know, a year maybe. Uh so this stuff is like like coming together. And what we're building at Etherfy is just like we're taking these things really as they come. >> Um sometimes months or even less when it becomes available. um and like you know cobbling together this viable alternative to traditional uh banking. Um so we're we're we are on the bleeding edge here. >> Okay. >> You know, forget about my pessimism. All right. All right.

>> Where's Arthur at, man? The guy keeps dumping on us. What the hell? [laughter] >> I think he's throwing a party tonight or yesterday. >> Yes, he's throwing a party or no last night. >> I think it was last night. Um >> I I I was curious about, you know, we've had we've had several projects in here. A lot of them roll up. Some of them have been in Ethereum for a long long time. This is an Ethereum conference and they've been telling us what they're looking for from Ethereum. Some of them are asking the EF for things. You know, they're asking the tech and the research and development teams for things. We've heard fast finality is a really key uh uh cornerstone for rollups. Uh generally scalability is helping a lot of these applications. You're in a little bit more of like the ETH the asset space,

right? like with liquid staking and all these things and the card program like it is much more um >> you're looking at you know the asset as e I'm you know same question what are you looking for from Ethereum to help bolster your business >> yeah that's a great question so I'll say two things actually um one I think everything that needs to be there is actually already there to build largecale uh applications that make a real difference in the world I actually think like all the pieces are there now. Builders have no, you know, [ __ ] excuse. Just you can actually build real [ __ ] now. >> Uh so let's just go do it.

>> Um so that's the first thing. Um the the second thing is I will actually say like from what I've seen, everything they're working on is and I wouldn't have said this six months ago or a year ago, everything they're working on is exactly the right thing. They're supporting the ecosystem. They're they hosted this really great founder mentor session that I I was fortunate enough to participate in. Um that was awesome. Um so they're supporting the ecosystem. They're actually helping you know startups. They're building on Ethereum. They're working on uh crosschain interoperability. Exactly the right thing to focus on. They're working on scaling the layer one.

>> Like it's awesome. I'm honestly they're doing um advocacy, you know, in the in the broader kind of traditional markets. >> Uh like it's fantastic. Honestly, I'm like holy [ __ ] I I wouldn't do anything different. They're actually doing exactly the right thing. >> Huge eat bags. Huge eth bags. >> We've called this >> I wish I wish I had more >> a bullish reversal of the Ethereum Foundation. >> Tell tell us a little bit more about this founder mentor uh event. Uh you know, this sounds like it was invite only. Could you just give us a sense of what who was there? What happened? Uh why was it so helpful? >> Um I mean I just showed up as a you know as a as a mentor. I talked to a bunch of these uh uh you know projects. So I don't know the full details of it but

it's just it's organized by the EF they had applications for you know projects that uh were building interesting things and then on the other side they had uh you know projects that were more mature and they brought them uh together to uh you know to be able to help each other out basically. Um uh and that was awesome. I mean that's that's not something the EF would have done >> right >> um like I said even six months ago. I think previously it would have been like you know uh incredibly neutral to a fault you know uh in the sense of like no no we we can't even like acknowledge DeFi exists. Yeah. >> Let alone actually like try to posture it and uh >> and help. So um it's great. Yeah.

Honestly, and they're listening. They're um >> they're talking to uh their customer which is the builders on the on the blockchain. Uh like I said, it's great. >> Yeah. Mike, uh, last thing for you on the, uh, uh, kind of buybacks and, uh, mechanism there. You guys did a $50 million buyback program. How did you structure that? What was the design choice of that internally? Why did you guys choose to do that in such a way that you did? >> Yeah, that's a good question. Um, uh, you know, uh, I'll just be completely honest, uh, and I'm sure a general counsel, uh, will have some words with me, but like we just looked at the market action. We looked at the the token price of ETHI and we said this just ridiculous. Um we could just do this. Um previously we were doing this

very systematic approach to buybacks where uh we just take a percentage of revenue or profits every week just buy back burn some of it just you know boring but like the market action just suggested look there's an opportunity here um the market just feels really low um I you know there's many reasons for it but it feels really low so we should probably accelerate that program. Uh so really that was just the discussion. It felt like opportunistic and so we just passed this we proposed governance action that was voted on by the community and and passed where we're going to be doing $50 million of buybacks on uh Ether uh from funded by revenues um um it'll be over the next 12 months or so. So Ether is doing great. We just had our analyst call where we

talk about how the you know the protocol is doing. Our run rate is about over $80 million in revenue a year, which is great. I mean, we're two years old. Like, that's that's pretty damn good. >> Um, so we're using revenues to uh to do these token buybacks opportunistically. And we'll slow it down and speed it up basically as uh >> as we see fit. >> Sometimes it is that simple. You have a good business model, it works. You get some customers, paying customers, you get some revenue, and you're off to a great start. >> Easier said than done, isn't it? We have a we have a gift for you, Mike. I feel like this is going to be really really relevant to you. Uh our our main slogan and thesis on the rollup this week is return to fundamentals. We're here at Dev Connect. Sweet with all of the best

builders in the space and uh we'd like to hear what this means for uh for you uh and generally why you care about fundamentals in the space. >> Well, I don't know return like when did we ever have fundamentals? So, [laughter] you know, >> yikes. >> Come come to fundamentals. Um >> yeah, no, it's great. Look, um, crypto is very, uh, complicated. A lot of these, uh, uh, tokens and e cryptoeconomic networks, it's unclear like how you value them, how value occurs. There's not really any standardization out there. These, these things will change. Uh, but we're certainly seeing people care a lot more about revenues. I think, and I haven't done this, but I'm pretty confident that if you took a basket of tokens that um have turned on a fee switch and are

doing what I would call honest buybacks, um those tokens will have performed better than uh a random basket of of tokens over the last, you know, whatever six to 12 months. So, I think we're seeing people actually care about real [ __ ] Um uh and that's good. Really good. >> And you can see it literally today in the market. There's a lot of red out there, but there are select tokens that are not red or as red as a result of that. Mike, thanks for coming on, man. It's been absolute pleasure. Guys, we'll take a quick break. Uh we're going to give Mike the right size and then we're going to be right up next with Enzar.

>> Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing [music] the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

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Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz [music] to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is [music] ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again.

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a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more.

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[music] Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinifi is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again.

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>> Call she's the world's largest. >> All right, we're back. Ansar, welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having me. >> Of course. >> Absolutely. >> Good to see you again since uh Thailand. >> It's a good time dinner. >> Yeah. Um we're calling this the Ethereum Foundation's bullish reversal from six months ago. Things were a little bit disorganized and really feels like everyone's coming home to Ethereum. Did as far as the sentiment internal to the foundation, is this is it similar? What has been the takeaway since Tom Tamas has come in and you've sort of restructured some things? What has been the sentiment since? >> Yeah, I mean I've heard the sentiment a lot this week specifically right here at the conference and whatnot and I I think it's generally similar internally maybe a bit less like I think because what we're doing internally is not always visible like immediately. So I think

these these opportunities these events are usually when the community makes updates and so for us it was more a gradual transition I would say. But yeah, I mean I think the year started like end of last year, early this year, I think there was a lot of tension. I think >> the way I would explain it, I don't know, looking back is a little bit that like we really we're hitting mass adoption, right? We're hitting like real world Ethereum and how you win in that kind of scenario. How you do a good job is is a bit different. In the past, the most important thing in Ethereum was always that we had the right five-year plan. It's still important and I think we still have like people like Justin really living I always call him our ambassador to the future and he's like doing an amazing job but it's no longer

good enough right like people are asking about like what is what about the change today in six months in 12 months right and like finding this new balance for the f to basically be an orc that like has resources on the short term and resources on the long term like that was a shift took a while there was a little bit of squeaking here and there you know like I think if we think back to early of the year but yeah now I think we're in a good position >> and where is your personal focus uh time horizon and also subject matter. >> Yeah. So my focus really is more on the short term these days >> and subject matter specifically. So I'm co-leading. We have these these individual tracks right now, right? Like if people remember six months ago there was the announcement, hey >> DF now has specific strate like focus

areas for the next 12 months. So that was new for both in terms of the time horizon but also DF used to like always do everything equally like you know 50 topics equally. Now it's like for a while at least let's focus on specific like major themes. And so I'm co-leading the scale the L1 specifically. So that's where most of my my attention is these days. >> Well, this is something that we've been talking a lot about because uh the rollup ccentric roadmap pushed execution off of the L1. But now we're hearing a lot of roll-ups that are starting to embrace based roll-ups. They're starting to embrace native roll-ups and the zkification of the L1 seems to have people really really excited. How have has this progress been from your side internally? What is the work that you guys have done to scale the L1 and how

is that being received? Yeah, I think I think it's been received really really well and I don't think sometimes people ask so is this now a pivot away from the roller centric road map and I don't think so. I think in a way we just also both in terms of how we communicated with the robots in a grow map and the way I think also we did it right again maybe made sense in this like old mindset of we are pre-adoption and it's more about like the long-term arc and like because the insight still I think holds right like I don't think you can scale even with CK you can't scale a single chain to like literally like 8 billion users doing all of their onchain activity on a single chain that just makes no sense I would expect that even like in 20 years like when I buy a

coffee it's probably not going to happen on on L1 Right. >> Um I I do think though that for a while that meant that we basically treated the L1 as if there was there was no activity supposed to happen there at all. And I think that makes no sense either. What we really want is we want a really strong L1 at the core of an of a very strong ecosystem of L2s. And so I think now it's time to say look we can't just wait forever. Like eventually we see KVM we'll get a really amazing product on the L1 as well. But we need to already now take that more seriously. So our scaling road map for example is like basically the idea at least how I would describe it is like for the next two to three years let's focus on the conventional scaling paths. So I think

my goal is like to try to 3x the throughput every year. I'm not sure that we'll you know be able to do that for three years in a row but like in principle you can think that's at 30x right over three years that's a lot. >> Um and then transition over to this magical ZKVM based kind of world. >> Very cool. So the gas limits have already climbed about 50% this year closer to 60 million. What is the biggest constraint to actually pushing that to 3x in 2026? How do you how do you achieve that? What is what is the obstacle right now to getting that gas limit closer to 150 million or 200 million? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So by the way, the way I would count is maybe because I think we only got started at least from the F side um around summer. So I would it's for me it's more like middle of the year

to middle of the year. So I and by the time we got started we were already at 36 million. So my goal is basically like by next summer to at least be at like uh 108 which would be the 3x and then the next 3x over the next 12 months. Um but yeah in terms of like concretely so I think there's different phases. So for example if you remember like the very first like the from 30 to 36 that was actually a community push you know pump the gas and all this this thing. And that was actually I think that also really helped kind of force the F to start facing the reality of like the community really really really cares about this and I think that was super super healthy right and it's this I think that makes Ethereum so special that it's not just an organization like

DF it's just it's actually the the entire ecosystem um that we basically got for free because we already we were running at such an excessive safety margin we had not scaled for like four years that there was just like a lot of buildup extra safety margin then from there 45 was just relatively quick performance improvements and clients we just had to make sure What are the current bottlenecks? Just focus on like getting rid of those. Now we are currently together with Fusaka we are rolling out 60 million actually already. So basically anyone who upgrades to the Fusaka ready client is already voting for 60. So we probably hit 60 actually before Fuzaka even goes live. >> Um that's like a batch of perform performance improvements that was a bit harder right um and now it took a couple months and now beyond this we'll need

the help of actual protocol changes. So in Fusaka we are getting rid of some of these edge cases that really are holding us back. Once we verify after Fusaka, so after the 60 million roll out, once we verify that these performance improvements have the desired effect, we can then go beyond 60 million hopefully you know the 100 110 million that I was thinking like early next year or something. So that would get us to this like initial 3x and then but that's just Kusaka. It was the main focus was on um maybe we talk about it in a second about pas and these like data scaling um um um solutions and so scale the L1 was just a tiny side focus with clums L1 scaling is like is going to be front and center like like summer next year and that that will be probably I at least I don't know

we still have to execute on this so maybe I should be careful with promising but I think this is going to be the biggest the single biggest jump in L1 throughut that we probably ever have ever had because there was so much low hanging fruit for us to to bundle into one hardfork >> and we've bundled that into Glamsterdam and the ETAs is for that to go live in the summer of next year. Before that we have Fusaka, we have the hard fork that's slated just a matter of weeks at this point. Weeks, not months. >> Two weeks. >> Twoish early December. >> Early December. And so TLDDR in Fu, Can you just kind of give us like, you know, the top three highlights that we're going to get in Fusaka? Top three highlights we're going to get in Glammsterdam.

>> Sounds good. So Faka really is like one very primary highlight and that is Pas. >> Um so we've been working on on data availability for a while. Again we talked rollup center road mapap rightups need um two things from the other one. They need settlement right and then they also need like data data really just data at stations is a bit weird. It's just they don't really need the data itself. They just need us to say yep the data is there right? Um, and in the past we just did this in this very not na I don't want to say naive but technically naive way right like the way we check that the data is there everyone just download the entire data and we're just like yep I was able to download it it's there >> I mean it's great it works but it's also

like super inefficient right like um and you can only process so much L2 data um and so what we're doing now for the first time we're moving to that was always the plan it took a while to actually roll it out we're moving to a sampling based approach so for the L1 data you actually have to download everything to to execute right to make sure that everything works as planned for the L2 data we just we do some cryptographic magic so you only have to sample it and sampling is obviously way more efficient so um even in the initial roll out like Pas is like the first version we get like an efficiency factor of eight so you only need to download 1/8 of the data um so eventually not immediately but eventually we'll be able to scale eight times our data throughput and then we already have um um further versions PS+ or whatever we're going to

call it in the works for like next year and whatnot that allow us to to have an even more efficient sampling step there. So that's all about like L2 um and data availability and then um otherwise Fusaka really has a few I would say quality of life improvements there's as I said there's we removing some of these edge cases for the technical people out there it's like specifically the modex operation that really just was too cheap we basically made it too cheap and so if you want to attack the chain I mean you can't because obviously we run safe but in order to prevent anyone from being able to abuse this we had to run at such a low speed so even if you spam this one operation we still don't blow up the chain right so now we make that's specifically more expensive. It's not a

particularly commonly used operation to begin with and now you can't spam that, you know, like we're no longer vulnerable and so we can we can increase until something else becomes your bottleneck, that kind of thing. >> Um, so that's kind of number two. And then number three, maybe more on the UX side. We actually we're now going to support the R1 curve, which is this cryptographic curve that's natively supported by like all the phones and the, you know, like any device that has a secure enclave, um, iPhone, Android, whatever. like they all basically will be able to just natively uh you can have like a smart contract wallet or something um that directly uses like your biometrics as the key or things like that. So basically that's just like another like nice little ingredient for for for wallet apps out there.

>> And these are all in Fusaka. >> These are all in Fusaka. Yeah. >> Beautiful. I'm excited for a native wallet inside of my smartphone. I uh I hope to think that Apple uh obviously iPhone, Samsung, like the major ma manufacturers of phones are starting to take this seriously. Um okay, that's Fusaka. That's top three highlights. Uh could you give us Glamsterdam three highlights? >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm particularly excited about Glamdam. I mean, you don't want to pick favorites, you know, but like given [laughter] that I'm working on L1 scaling and we decided that Glam will be primarily focused on L1 scaling like very passionate about all the features there. So we have um what we call headliners which are more like individually distinct big features. >> We have two of those um and that's specifically EPBS which is short for >> pro proposer builder separation.

>> That's right. You did your homework. That's great. Yeah. That's impressive. Exactly. And so the idea there is um I would call it primarily like slot restructuring. So you know we have 12 seconds slots on Ethereum for now. We're also working on later on bringing that down. 12 seconds and today out of those 12 seconds we only using up to four for anything related to block processing and then the other eight are for voting and aggregating the votes and processing the votes and everything. So it's only 4 seconds for the actual execution of the chain. >> Um and then in reality like if you use math boost or something the first second is usually like the interaction with the relay. So it's kind of more 3 seconds actually. Okay. And we're just taking that and we're basically just like doubling as dumb as that sounds, right?

Just like doubling the amount of time in the slot more or less that is available for for processing of the chain. So we get like almost a >> I don't want to say it's it's more complicated always in reality, but we basically get a 2x performance increase just from that one feature. It's really really exciting. It has other benefits as well, but I really like it for the scaling benefits. >> Quick question on that. So this 12 the slot time is still 12 seconds but we're doubling the 4 seconds to eight out of the 12 four block processing. >> That's roughly right like there is some nuance. It's not going not exactly eight. We still figuring the exact numbers. There's also going to be slightly shorter time period for the download and then a longer time period for the processing. So maybe maybe we we

can we will make call data a bit more expensive compared to compute. So that you know maybe call it data scales a bit less than 2x and compute a bit more than 2x but >> more or less more or less that what how you said it is is is right. >> Okay got it. >> So that's feature one and just get going keep going. Yeah. >> Yeah please. So that's enshrined PBS >> EPBS. Exactly. Enr proposal builder separation that's one that's scaling right. Then the second one also scaling block level access list and that maybe we should have called it something more catchy but like basically it's all about parallelization right like so far if people are familiar with that the idea right like Ethereum is in principle a a a single threaded chain so you you basically you everything runs sequentially now in practice people have always had these performance

improvements that they just optimistically run things in parallel but if you again are an attacker and we always for for the gas limit we always have to think from the attacker point of view right like because if someone tries to screw with our chain we have to, you know, 100% uptime. We we don't want to risk that. So, um, you can always as an attacker force force things to conflict and fall back to sequential operations. And with with buckle access, it's actually interesting. We're leaning a little bit into deputizing the builder more. So, the builder still builds the block sequentially or they can do whatever, you know, optimizations they want to like optimistically do things in parl. And then once they have the block, they basically now are required to give us annotations of what changes does every transaction make. So that you can just it's just like the list of all the rights that it does basically to the

chain. And then if I want if I get the list of like the 20 transactions in the block and I want to execute transaction 17 or I can just see what the other 16 transactions do in terms of the changes and I can just like run the 17 transaction on top of that state and then I never there's no way that that can ever be conflicting with anything else. I know for certain that they can run transaction 17 independent from all the other ones and same with transaction you know 16 15 14. So you in principle can you take your block and you can run the entire block every transaction in parallel for verification >> and then not only that but you can also we also put some other information in there um that allows you to start pre-fetching all the state from disk deterministically and we allow you to do the state root calculation in parallel.

So it's all about parallelization. Okay. And now of course in practice we have like a like a very specific um minimum hardware requirement for Ethereum nodes. So we also specify like how many cores how many threads do we expect that you have. So we not expecting that you can run literally 20 transactions in parallel or 100 transactions in parallel because I mean you're most likely not running on a big data center machine right so we're not going to say ah now infinitely more compute but but it's probably going to be another like at least on the compute side on the comput side another 2x 3x right performance improvement right there. Um, so that's super exciting. And then add on top of that, >> so those were the two headliners. But then there's one more batch of features that's not yet confirmed. We actually debating right now, but I I'm optimistic. That's at least one of my

passion projects to to get that in. Um, it's called repricings. It's a bit more like technical, but the idea again, we talked about it earlier already that there are some operations that are just too cheap and they're holding back with the entire chain just because if an attacker wants to spam the chain with that, it's just too cheap. Um, and so all we're doing is we're just going through all the operations like literally anything you can do in the EVM and we just benchmark under like very realistic conditions like how much effort does it actually take and we price everything proportional. I mean it's very simple insight right but like it's just it's a lot of engineering work to actually get that right. >> Um but once we have that we can basically we no longer have to like run for the worst case. The worst case and

the average case come much closer together. And you know if you kept track like there was a 2x from EPBS, there was a 2x from Blocklist, there's maybe a 2x from the repricings. You add that all up, it's sounds even more than 3x what I promised you in the beginning. It's more but of course caveat here. A some of these things not not everything like state growth like actually just like the amount of this the way in which the the rate at which the Ethereum state grows. That's something that we have to keep under control. So probably that will become more and more expensive over time relative to everything else. creating new contracts, creating new storage slots and then also for example the the specific features we talked about not all of them help with data so call data might become so it's not it's going to be a little bit more spoty how we scale

like some things will scale more than 3x some things will scale a little less than 3x so the overall like TPS transactions per second that's where we have this more conservative conservative we have this target of 3x I'm optimistic if we get everything that we want to out of Amsterdam that we will you know keep on this path and then we have to see how much longer we can do Keep doing these three accesses. >> I've got a quick question about the second point in Glamsterdam, the block level access list. >> This will scale the L1, but will this also improve the UX and and specifically the interoperability because as we're able to execute transactions in parallel, can we start to become more composable across roll-ups?

>> Interesting question. Um I I actually I will have to think about in what extent that we get that out of BLS specifically like it's definitely a goal where we we we have these parallel work streams about the composibility of the L2s. I'm not immediately certain that you get that specifically out of block access list. >> Okay, cool. My last thing for you because we uh we got crazy schedule is um what what is your message to the Ethereum community who are looking in who are like you know a lot of them are asking for faster finality um that's what they're asking of the EF and um you know what is your message to to those who are asking for faster finality. >> Yeah. Um again all of this was super super zoomed in right so like if we zoom out um I

think overall what what I do think what makes me hopeful also about the future of Ethereum I mean I was part of the community also like a year ago I was also like huh not everything seems to be going quite right and I'm now much more hopeful I think overall the y the c of space I think got much better at like really understanding these like short-term pain points and how to focus on those what of course does not change is ethereum is you know we don't ever compromise security safety we have these we have like 10 different clients so that like these upgrade cycles are like you know if we push very hard maybe we can have hards every six months but that's the very limit right so even now that we set the priorities we still like for example faster finality like that is

a big focus area for us now as well I would expect that we will have bring things there to the chain as well but of course they will have to wait for the next opportunity um that they come can can can be delivered specifically on that point though just briefly and there is actually like a really exciting feature that that that we're rolling out early next year that doesn't require a hard fork. Um it's specifically around like I think it's called the fast confirmation rule or things like that where basically um you can because finality really is just like under worst case cons circumstances right so you really basically you wait until you're 100% certain but if you watch the chain often people already vote everyone votes for the same thing so if it's not contentious you can very quickly like after a few seconds you already know

this block will finalize eventually and so now we have an algorithm that specifically watches the chain if you run a node and it can tell you of course if it's contentious it says please wait until we hit full finality. But if everyone votes for the same thing, they there's like very and it's it's obviously like there's a lot of theory behind it. You can set specific security thresholds and then it tell you this block you can now already trust and that type of finality if you want to call it that synchronous finality in a sense that can be achieved like we're talking all of a sudden we're talking like literally like 10 seconds something like this instead of 12 minutes that is today's finality time. That's huge. >> For many use cases, that will be the finality that you care about. >> Yeah.

>> So, I'm very excited for that as well. But then full fast finality will have to wait for like a hard fork. >> Yeah. >> Where there's room for that. >> And last thing for you, we're building a dev connect playlist. Uh what what song would you like to add? >> Uh favorite artist recently, a song jamming with what you've been what have you been uh vibing with as of late? >> Uh that's a that's an interesting question. Um not the best person. >> The easiest question of the entire day. It's like it's [clears throat] spend the most time thinking about >> and anyone in Ethereum space like it's all weird people like I don't know I >> I'm not the best on like culture topics. Uh >> come on. What's your What are you guys playing? What are you listening to the EF usually have a lot of me to like calm

down. So for me it's usually very calm like some piano like like very classic. >> So So like some piano stuff. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's do some of this. I can I can send you >> Okay. Mosart or >> we'll add some piano beats >> something classical or or more modern. Okay. >> Some of this >> thanks for joining man. >> Awesome. Pleas great conversation. I hope this was interesting for people and was >> thank you so much inspiring. >> I'm very happy that you all are also saying that like there is a vibe shift right like >> we see it too. >> Everybody does see it. >> Yeah. >> It was painful to get here but I'm very excited now and so awesome. Thank you so much.

>> Cheers man. >> All right guys we'll keep it rolling. We got Cammy Russo from the Defiant up next. Um, we we'll we'll get right into the vibe shift. Um, see what her perspective is. Thanks so much, Enar. >> Thanks, Ensgar. >> Um, and yeah, just get a quick update from her. Then we've got Paul from Morpho and we've got uh Nick uh from Celestia. Couple more guests. >> The home stretch, man. >> It's the home stretch. It really is. >> Wow. >> It really is. So, we're looking good here. >> Thursday in Buenosarees. >> The rollup's looking good here. >> The rollup is looking great. Thursday, Benitaris, do not look at the charts.

Please, for your safety, for your safety and and mental well-being, do not look at the charts. >> Um >> Um >> Um So, >> we got Cammy up next, guys. This uh playlist is going to be epic. Uh, we've got a bunch of like different types of music and songs and everything. So, um, yeah. [clears throat] >> Yeah. Anger was firing. Just >> Yeah.

>> You get them you get them on one thing and it's about what they're excited about and then all of a sudden the the energy >> it's just just taking them. Emmy, hello. Hello. >> Hello. >> Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Welcome to the rollup. >> Oh, that's so exciting. >> Welcome to the studio. How's Bonasire treating you? >> Amazing. >> You love it here, right? >> I love it here. Makes you so happy and nostalgic at the same time. >> Yeah, because abas espanol. >> I'm from across the Andes. I'm Chilean, but I lived in Argentina over four years. >> So, it feels like coming home.

>> Yeah. >> Wow. Awesome. We just had Ansgar from the EF on and and we're talking about this vibe shift from the EF specifically kind of like in in their new in their new kind of front-facing approach and their new approach to the community. Obviously, you've been a long-standing uh Ethereum uh you know advocate and community member. How would you describe this kind of turnaround from the EF over the last six to 12 months? What what have you seen from your perspective? Um, I think it's it's been noticeable and just a very, you know, 180 shift. Um, from being more more vocal and kind of getting down from the so-called ivory tower that everyone criticized them for to, you know, being more involved in the community. Um, being a a more of a

spokesperson for for developers and builders actually using DeFi for me was like a a big thing. like I I've been covering DA from its very kind of early days and seeing that the EF rarely talked about it um that they they also they always kind of related with speculation to actually you know deploying EF funds on DeFi. To me that was like the clearest example because it's it's easy to like to talk and like but like actually deploying money that's like yeah putting your money where your mouth is. So I I really commend them for that. >> Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. I mean you we can feel it. I think a lot of the builders feel it. Um just the energy of of the event. Um also being in Buenosirus where you know blockchain rails and stable coins and these types of things are like a lifeboat for so

many people. Right. >> The community here has been calling for a big Ethereum event to happen here for many years and it it feels like just like a such a long time coming. like there's a a real organic grassroots uh crypto adoption and and community here and it just like it seemed like the obvious place to have an an Ethereum conference. So every time like DevCon or Devcon connect was announced and it wasn't here it was like why? So like yeah it feels very nice. So FedE actually put out a tweet saying, "Guys, we got to do Dev Connect next year in New York City. Like we have to go where the capital is to get the like the largest institutions to take Ethereum seriously and to really kind of take that next step." Do you agree with that or do you think that we should keep having Dev Connect in more emerging

markets? >> I I like the emerging markets crowd because you know there's like there's already so many events in New York like everyone is already there. Yeah. >> So I think like you know Devcon and Dev connect are an opportunity for like everyone in New York to like go and like meet other you know other communities around the world. There's also the visa aspect which is you know it's not a small aspect. Yeah. >> Um it's it's hard to get a US visa for for many places. So I feel like it would just like limit the amount of people who would be actually you know able to access the conference. I I've got a similar but but different question here because I I think it is uh the case that Argentina is the crypto capital of Latin America. >> I think so.

>> I don't think anyone's going to dispute that especially now. Um >> the US is trying to build this regulation so that it becomes the the crypto capital of the world. >> Yeah. What kind of things do you think Argentina got right that the US can now look at and say, "Hey, we should also do this if we want to try to make the US more crypto friendly." >> Um, no. I really hope the US does not copy Argentina [laughter] in in what it did to get >> to get it crypto community. >> Spicy. >> The reason why Argentina has a big crypto community is because everything was so wrong about its economy. It's now getting fixed thanks to MLE. >> Um but previously with all the parist governments um they wrecked the economy. That's why they have tripledigit

inflation currency controls like over half the population lives in poverty. Um so that's why crypto picked up here as a way to protect savings against you know all those problems. So yeah I really hope the US doesn't go that down that route. >> So you put out this uh this tweet or this post saying what if the future of crypto is not blockchain? Um I don't know if if you remember that. Yes. >> What did you mean by that and and kind of through through your work at the Defiant, how are you how are you helping to shape the future of of this industry? >> Um so that was that was it's not something that I actually think that the future of crypto.

>> It's more like a hypothetical. >> Yeah. But it was just very interesting. I I um I had a recent interview uh with Gregor. Um he is the founder of a new decentralized network that's not a blockchain that's called Facet. Uh the company is Pyquare. The blockchain is called Facet. >> Um and yeah they they're building a proofofstake network with a token. It looks very much like a blockchain but it's not a blockchain. Like it doesn't have a ledger that organizes blocks in a sequential way. Um it's like parallel. I don't know. It's like a different architecture. So yeah like I I came from Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um and yeah, I mean I I I hope that the defant is like, you know, working or or contributing to a a better future of of blockchain. I think

we do that by just like advocating for um keeping the the like DeFi values of permissionlessness, trustless, uh censorship resistant, all of that. As we cover this like intersection of DeFi and Trafy and and Fintech and so on. Yeah. Um, you know, I always try to do it with the lens of this is great, but let's not rebuild the the same financial infrastructure on like closed chains. So, I think that's kind of the real danger that we're facing today. >> Yeah, I um I I love that. And, you know, speaking more about the defiant, one of the things that continues to drive Andy and I on the rollup is that, you know, we want to bring people on that are smarter than us so that we can learn from them and then our community can

learn alongside of us. Um you've been doing this a long time uh in the space >> before us. >> Before us >> it was just us and and bankless back in the day and like block mates maybe actually >> and so you know give us the origin story like you've come so far but then you also continue to get up every day and and you know make sure that the defiance what drives you now >> exactly what keeps you >> make sure it's changed. >> Yeah. Um I don't know that that's a good question. I think like I'm I'm just very proud of what we built at at the Defiant. It started out as a side project. It was like a newsletter that was, you know, it was supposed to be a freelancer and I had this Defi Focus newsletter and it just like organically

grew into a media company. Um, and now I feel like there are there are very few independent media companies in crypto um doing just like unbiased journalism and reporting. Um, I also think that we are, you know, we're we're just like very few in this like niche of of DeFi and kind of onchain economy. Uh, so I think we are at the defined we're contributing something unique to crypto and that you know that makes me happy. It makes me proud because I um I really do think this industry is going to change the world. So I just I love being a part of it. >> That's beautiful. Last thing on like kind of question side and then we have a gift for you. you recently pushed back

on this SEC's air traffic control metaphor for DeFi. I can see you're fired up about it. What What is this misunderstanding that regulators have about DeFi? Why does this bother you so much? >> Um, I think no, I I I just like got riled up uh at this former SEC agent just like going on this like tweet tirade the other day. Um and it was just like very surprising to see um how little she understands the the basic tech. Yeah. Um, and so I was like, okay, like this is the kind of person who was just setting back the industry so much last year, like threatening like developers to go to jail for like writing code. Um, and and like going

after like legit projects, advancing finance and tech and not after the actual criminals. Yeah. >> Um, so so yeah, that's why I push back on that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, we do have a gift for you. um you've been here since the beginning and uh I think right now >> one of our core core uh brand kind of ethoses right now is return to fundamentals. >> I love that >> and I think you can deeply resonate with that as a Chilean as an OG in Ethereum. What does this message mean to you? Please tell tell the folks watching why you care about this. >> Um I think that you know like finally we are seeing real use cases come you know, be adopted and take off in crypto. Uh, and for a long time it was about like speculation and more like

frivolous use cases, but now we're seeing um, you know, payments, stable coins, savings. Uh, and so I think like it's it's a sign of maturity that these projects and this industry is being valued on how much it's actually contributing to real people. Um, and so yeah, I just hope we we we stay in this direction. >> I love that. Cammy, last thing for you. We're building a Spotify playlist for Dev Connect from all of our speakers. What is one song you that you like to add? What do you what have you been vibing with lately? What's your favorite song?

>> You're putting me on the spot. >> If you have an artist that you like, we can start there. What kind of music do you like? >> Uh, okay. So, I was just listening to Red Hot Chili Peppers. Aeroplane. >> Nice. Do that. >> Nice. Um, we'll go with Californiaation. Scar tissue. >> Yeah. Yeah, sure. >> Californication. Beautiful. >> Came, thanks for your time. Um, I know it's fast pace, quick and quick, but thanks for coming. I think we have another gift for you. This one, this one is not from us. This one's actually from Lambda class. We're in the Lambda office. >> A glass of Malbeck from the uh Lambda's kind of uh orchard out in Argentina.

They wanted you to have this. >> That's so nice. And it's very controversial coming from a Chilean, but this is my favorite one. >> That put that. [laughter] Thanks, Cammy. >> Thank you so much. And I'm a big fan of you guys, too. So, I appreciate you having me. >> Thanks, Kimmy. >> Keep on great work. >> All righty, guys. We're going to keep it firing. I mean, hospitality brand. I mean, we got shirts, we've got wine, we've got smiles. Let's go. Um, we are we we are up next with uh I believe Paul from Morpho. Uh, how many bottles of wine do we have? >> I think they said two for each guest.

>> My goodness. >> Is that true? >> Wow. >> Okay. All right. >> Well, we've got a lot of wine to give out here. >> Wine to give out. >> We're gonna we're going to do our post-production. We're going to uh we're going to have some wine ourselves. I'll tell you that much, guys. I mean, what other what other show is giving out wine? I mean, come on. >> Cheers. >> Cheers to that. I mean, I don't even have a drink anymore, >> guys. Final uh we're on the final two hours of Dev Connect Day Two. It's really exciting. We're going to get our next guest, Paul from Morpho on. We've had the three biggest lending markets in Ethereum. Come on. >> We got Paul Frambot in the house, the co-founder, CEO of Morpho. This guy's been cooking. These guys have been on an absolute tear. Defi mullet is right

where they need to be. Paul, what's going on, man? Great to meet you in person, man. Pleasure. Thanks for Thanks for having me. >> I I was expecting you to be uh wearing the DeFi the the full mullet. Yeah, I was actually supposed to go yesterday, but I was like so back to back. You know, we have a hairdresser over there. >> Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. Yeah. >> And that's a pity. Like I'm, you know, I was supposed to go. Like my team is like hardly blaming me for not going. [laughter] Most of them went and I did not. So I'm like, you know. >> All right. Well, we got we got rapid fire. We got tons of topics. Let's start with with uh the you know, we don't want to bury the lead. You guys are absolutely cooking with Coinbase with with their CB BTC backed loans powered by Morpho. talk to us about this

distribution strategy and what this really unlocks for Bitcoin users who want to get that liquidity without having to sell their Bitcoin, go through taxable events, these types of things. >> Sure, of course. So, you know, to your point like the DeFi mallet, uh the whole idea is that you want DeFi to hide the wires, right? Like you want the experience that you would have on a normal consumer app, which is like seamless, zero latency, zero notion of a wallet, self custody, nothing of that. But you want the superpowers of web three, right? if you want the deep liquidity to use your Bitcoin as collateral to borrow, right? And so what what Coinbase achieved for the very first time in our industry is the ability to provide those web free superpowers to an audience that does not even know web free exists, right? And and when I was like pitching Coinbase on like the the Bitcoin back idea back

then, Coinbase, you know, was al already having like a central identity part, right? So it it was already possible to get a loan on your Bitcoin. The problem is that when you're not plugging into web system, you don't have open rails, open liquidity where effectively on the other side of the trade, you have ledger, you have Bit Panda, you have 20 different curators that are bidding to give the best possible rates to the Coinbase users. And so now if you have some Bitcoin and you're in the Coinbase app, not only you can like seamlessly use them to borrow more for, but most importantly, the entire world on the other side of the trade is bidding to give you the best possible rate in a competitive way. Right. That's the key difference of the DeFi compared to like traditional financial services is that the thing is open. So it provides much

deeper liquidity, much better pricing. >> Yeah. And I'm not going to drop the alpha here, but but I have heard that there are some Bitcoiners who want native Bitcoin on Bitcoin oriented chains. I know that that that that we have some some work to to do there. I don't I'm not sure all the Bitcoiners like Coinbase or Base that much, but we're going to figure that one out. >> Of course, you know, Morpho is deployed on 40 different chains. Anyone that's EVM, we're working very actively on the Bitcoin, you know, EVM ecosystem, uh where Morpho will be deployed. And nothing I can share right now, but I think Bitcoiners will be very happy with Morpho in the next few weeks. >> Oh, next few weeks, >> man. So, we just had Cammy from the define on and she we were talking about this vibe shift within the EF, right?

And how, you know, just in the last year, the EF has now taken its treasury and started to actually use that in DeFi. Whereas two, three years ago, uh, Vitalic and Kane were going headtohead on Twitter about why, you know, h why are they not supporting DeFi? Why are they viewing DeFi in this way? How how have you shaped Morpho into a product that institutional treasuries are now treating Morpho as this standard yield infrastructure starting with the EF and more? >> Sure. So I think you know the most important thing for those large institutions which I think DeFi has been missing for quite some time is control right you want to be able to deposit your money in a protocol where you don't have to be friend with me to make sure your money is safe right that's the most important thing for them what does that

mean in practice well morph is completely mutable right there's no backd dooror in it like you can't change the code you can't modify it right moral so you can select precisely your risk profile you want something that's exposed to only Bitcoin back loans strictly one collateral only 600 lines of code you can do that you want something ultra risky you can also do this on Mar right and so having this granularity and the ability to set exactly the risk profile that you want also the compliance profile that you want for some of them right uh in a way that you entirely own the financial stack without relying on anyone that's a very very compelling for institutions and obviously you know the EF deposited into morpho but I'm more thinking like truly large scale institutions that are thinking about leveraging operate rails to provide deal to their users. >> And that's one side of the marketplace

is depositing into these uh solutions and these vaults. But the other side of the marketplace is more and more institutions curating risk vaults uh and providing them in the Morpho system. Uh what have you done to to vet the uh the curators up to this point? How are you choosing risk curators? And for anyone who's listening, you know, we've had head of innovation at Janice Henderson. We've had Wisdom Tree. We've had black, you know, we've had all these these institutions on the show. If they're listening, how do they become a risk curator on Morpho? >> Sure. Um, so a few things. The first thing is Morph is a permissionless platform. So we don't vet. We don't choose a specific curator, right? Anyone can come in and curate. Whether you are Black Rockck or like a a student in here in Argentina that wants to deploy, you

can do it, right? On morpho, we have more than 500 vaults. Now, some of them are the safest yield product you can find in D5 period. Right? There's no safer than this, right? Some of them are the riskiest product you can find in DeFi period. Right? That's the part of it, right? It's like we're building a fully permissionless, fully decentralized system where anyone can compete and build their own thing, innovate their own thing, right? And if you are a crypto native vault curator right now, you know, it's, you know, the stakehouse, the gauntlet, you know, Spark of the world, they run those DeFi strategies for pretty large like, you know, fintech partners, wallets, etc.

>> We had Mon of Spark10 billion dollars in TVL. He was on just he was in here an hour ago. >> I think he's managing like a billion dollar on morph. Uh so those guys are incredible. What we're looking now is that when you're a large fintech, right, you don't really trust that much DeFi. So you want much more institutional risk curators. Nothing I can talk right now on the podcast, but you can expect the curator gam to 10x in the next few months. >> Y so only one of the over 500 uh vaults was affected by this XUSD dg. um you guys have created a system that has allowed you guys to basically be uh removed from this massive liquidation event. Not to harp too much on that, but what what are some of the lessons that

you learned and that broader DeFi ecosystem has learned from that 1010 event and how will you build a further more resilient system in the future? Obviously, you guys did a great job. How do you guys do even better in the future? >> Sure. So, few things. So first you know we have you know to your point like hundreds and hundreds of vaults there was like the stream like events and there will be more in the future right and we have some vaults for example that expose like users to like some memecoin leverage like thing that are fairly highly risky right like uh and but obviously the system is fully isolated like you know vaults are similar to funds infire right and some funds in fratfire like lose money every day so it's like similar to here right um I guess the the general

realization that we have is that there is a very important need for visibility. Right? You're a large scale distributor. You want to be able to have all the data you need in order to make your choice of like which curator are you going to work with? Are you going to work with like a cryptogen curator? Are you going to work with like an institutional asset manager that has a regulated investment arm, right? And so we we think of our role as providing more and more visibility for users in order to make those informed choices. And we partnered last week with Credora to provide those risk ratings where when you come to the Morpho ecosystem, you're able to effectively see oh this vault is scored B+ and you know that compares to uh this other protocol that is scored B. So that's like >> it's like a third party. Exactly. Not

like you know cuz back in the day in in 2008 in the in the in the uh housing crisis the the parties which were allocating the ratings were also the ones who were doing the deals. And then there was >> no that's absolutely third party. We are not involved in this but it's very important that the infrastructure does not take a stance on how risk should be done. >> Correct. Yeah. >> And we have multiple parties like obviously credor is the one that's live now. We're working with three different rating agencies that are going to provide independent risk ratings. >> Yeah. And yeah, >> so I'm curious about the activity with regards to like where the most activity comes from for more for is it people that are using the app directly on chain or is it a lot from from the kind of DeFi mullet structure that you built on

Coinbase and then generally like with that in mind 2026 2027 where do you see those kind of growing and and bifurcating in in terms of onboarding users to Morpho? >> Sure. a year ago 100% was D5 like Defi. >> So like going to the app using the app. Yeah. >> Yeah. Or other apps like the DeFi savers, Insta app of the world etc. >> Uh and that was the case for every single DeFi promoted, right? Like it was to be honest like it was mostly cryptonative users by by far. And then what happened is that we we we lended that that Coinbase integration uh that today has two billion dollars on morph clear. That's like pretty insane like and had like hundreds of thousands of users. Um the thing though is that Coinbase is the first to do that. They inspired

everybody, >> right? >> And so we've shifted from 100% of our focus to defy native to 5% of our focus. Wow, like that's the amount of resource we put into defy native capital right now is less as 5% of our resources. 95% of our resources is enterprise adoption. How do we get large scale distributors to effectively enshrine web free into their stack and making it seamless for the user? And you know maybe that's not the thing that makes pumps the numbers the most like compared to some you know crypto truth defy native trades. However, longterm I'm pretty damn sure this is going to be the thing that you know uh makes DeFi win eventually. So that's why I channel all my energy into this. So, so, so you're trying to grow that bucket next year in the following year.

>> Exactly. >> After Coinbase, we announced Gemini. We announced Crypto.com, we announced Crypto.com today, right? >> Yeah. So, you today we announced it's live in the US. It has been live for a few weeks now, >> but if it's not live in the US, I mean, come on. [laughter] What are we doing here, buddy? >> Uh, you know, we we've been live in a bunch of fintex here in Argentina. We're live in Lemon. We're live in the place. But that's only the scratching the surface of like the efforts we've been doing over the last year. >> Yeah. Defi will win. Uh the value acrruel uh pipeline is is something I'm very curious about. We've Arthur Hayes has come on the podcast basically used this math uh uh this moon math to say like okay we know that stable coins are going to increase to trillions in supply. You know the natural progression

is that stable coins they go into perexes they go into tokens they go into lending markets they go into DeFi all of these things. So, so you know, give me c can you trace through like, you know, the morpho token on one side and the US government on the other side. These guys are saying trillions of stable coins. We know that there's going to be trillions. This is going to end up in DeFi. It's going to end up in lending markets. Trace through the value acrruel mechanism for Morpho, Morpho token, and generally uh this this path. >> Sure. Stable coins are becoming the checking account, right? Morpho is the savings account, right? And it's a highly tailored saving account for whoever you're, you know, saving, right? And you're going to have a vault almost for every individual that need a specific risk profile, specific compliance profile, wherever they are, right?

>> I don't think stable coins alone not generating any yield long-term is sustainable. Everybody will become so whatever is the time for stable coin is the time the time for lending. That's really something that I truly believe is that and in that perspective every single trillion of dollar that you know is coming into the chain will happen to be productive on Moro in my opinion right and I really think of Morpho as the >> internet protocol for financing right every single dollar in the world that is an excess of capital that's idle should be made productive on Moro and be matched in the most efficient way possible with someone on the other end looking for financing right and we will be the protocol that's mapping the to in the most efficient way possible. Now what does that mean for morpho right and

value creation in general this is a network's business right what does that mean it means that we create value by connecting people the lenders on one hand and the borrowers on the other hand that did not know each other right and because morpho exists they're going to be able to have access to a much wider opportunity much deeper opportunity the same way Coinbase prefers being on chain than with their centralized books is because now they can meet with Binance wallet users that integrate morpho and deposit on the other side right the the more the the the network grows the more the value that morpho create grows super linearly right so if the the network grows linearly the value created by morpho create grows super linearly so this is a long-term game right what I mean by this is that we are looking to scale this to the multiple tens of

trillions of dollars right in terms of size of volume of active right >> once this is in place right there's obviously massive value ac you know that that can basically like capture value to reinvest in further growth in the network, etc., etc. >> Paul, we're running on on time here. We have a couple things for you. First, we've got a a a gift for you. Um, it is our brand our brand ethos, our brand core message right now. Uh, it is return to fundamentals. Uh, we we are uh really pioneering and pushing this idea of building real real technology and returning to the fundamentals of the space. If you would just kind of tell us what that means to you, why why the fundamentals of this space matter? Yeah, I think you know like one of Morph's

values internally is to think from first principles on pretty much everything, right? So we're very very attached to this idea of not doing crazy things that we don't truly believe it will be useful for the long term uh of the company and that is true for every single aspect of moro most important protocol design in the way for example we don't focus too much on the two speculative aspect of lending but most of our time is on the D5 model type of thing because we believe this is the fundamental value that D5 and crypto will create is bringing this web free superpowers better pricing better liquidity worldwide to billion people. >> And I think Rob's got some wine for you here. >> Our our friends at Lambda Class who uh they grow these grapes. Malbeck is the choice wine of Argentina. And so because we're in Argentina for Dev Connect, our friends are making you this bottle of

wine. >> Thank you. So I don't drink personally, but I'm French and our offices are in France in Paris. And I'm sure they'll enjoy it. >> I'm sure that they would love that. >> Take a second bottle for the rest of the team. >> We've got another bottle of Laderas de los Andes Malbeck. This is the some of the best stuff in the entire country. >> Yeah. >> Thank you for joining us. Last thing for you is we're creating a Spotify playlist. >> Sure. >> And we need one song from you. What are you vibing with lately? What is your choice of tunes? Give us some French some French stuff or something. Come on. >> One of the the most my most favorite like crypto music is uh do you know 2020 19 where Vitalik was rapping? Okay. [laughter] Bro, that thing is insane. >> Okay.

>> The EF rap. that thing with Carl like rapping crazy. I don't know if you >> I don't know if that's on Spotify. Is there a song? Do you know what the name of it is? >> I'm not sure. >> All right. Give us a a plan B here. Give us a plan B here. >> Plan B. >> What What kind of music do you like? Raph, rock, classical. Is there an artist that you like? >> Uh I've been listening a lot to Fred again. >> Okay. I like that. I like that. >> So yeah, maybe one of those. >> Do you Okay. Places to be. Do you know that song? >> Yeah, >> that one's a banger, right? Yeah, it is. >> Yeah, that one's a good one. We'll do that one. Paul Frambot, CEO of Morpho. Thank you for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure, man.

>> Thanks. [laughter] >> All righty, guys. What a what a segment. I mean, come on. I mean, who else is giving you guys wine in Buenosades? Two bottles straight up. Like, come on. Uh we are having a great time here in Rollup TV land in Buenos. back in Argentina is right here in the rollup uh studio, the Lambdacass office. Shout out to our partners with Lambdac. Uh they make >> up next we've got Nick. >> They make great wine. They make great vibes. >> I mean, it's it's just all around pretty pretty hard. How do you beat this, man? I mean, we're in Argentina.

>> You don't You can't beat someone who refuses to lose. >> No, I mean, come on. Come on. We're out. >> Let's get Let's get our friend Nick. >> Nick's up here. >> Austria. Friend of the show, >> man. We got wine. We got shirts. We're running on hour five. Um, man, let's go. >> Let's go. >> We've got Nick, the CEO of Celestia, live here on Rollup TV in Buenosirus. Nick, come on in, brother. It's good to see you, man. >> Hey, what's up, guys? >> How are you, buddy? >> Good to see you, Nick. Fresh out of the Uber. >> Nice, man. >> In the rain. >> How you doing?

>> Good. Good. >> It's raining out there. >> Yeah, a little bit. >> We haven't We haven't been outside in a few hours. [laughter] >> Well, you don't say. Yeah. >> How's Bonosirus treating you, man? >> Good. Yeah, it's a beautiful city. Um, you can feel the actual enthusiasm for crypto here and the actual need and like education. >> It's fun to be in a country where like crypto people are actually crypto native. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Actually matters [clears throat] here. >> Yeah, it does. Is this your first time? >> Yeah, my first time. >> Yeah. Nice. >> Same here. >> People were giving me a bunch of flack for for saying it's going to be super safe. They were like, "Oh, but I'm sorry. Super safe." I don't know about you, but it's it feels like it's safer than most American cities here. >> I feel safer than NSF.

[laughter] Like we were walking the the street last night and there's there was kind of a homeless guy >> but he was like kind of friendly and like in SF like the homeless people >> would not happen. Yeah. [laughter] >> Kind of like dangerous. >> Yeah. Sketchy. >> Yeah. Exactly. So anyway, >> well Nick, catch us up, man. It's been maybe three, four months since you've been on. Um a lot has happened. What's what's going on in Celestial Land? How's the ecosystem? How's the product? I I know you guys have some announcements this week. What's going on? Yeah. So I would say I think probably the last time we chatted maybe we're just starting to realize that we had this opportunity with CLABS. So central limit order book exchanges >> um building onchain are a very good >> uh product that fits the Celestia architecture extremely well because if you're building an exchange there's two

things you care about. One is latency. You cannot beat the latency of a single sequencer rollup architecture. A lot of people will fud that. You can still get the decentralization properties that matter like censorship resistance, verifiability, non-custodial exchange and yet you can get a Binance level or even faster latency. So there's that. So the architecture is perfect. But then on the back end, if you want to actually have the exchange run on chain, you want to post all the orders and cancels onchain like Hyperlid does uh for composability with DeFi, you need like megabytes, like huge amounts of data throughput per uh for all the markets that you're going to list. And so

Celestia is built for that world where we're going to have, you know, hundreds of thousands of transactions on chain. like you know the whole narrative of decentralized NASDAQ which everyone's so amped about uh if we actually want to build an onchain NASDAQ NASDAQ does like something like 100,000 200,000 on the order of that trans orders per second and that would be just an enormous amount of DA throughput that actually no other L1 currently could provide and with the upcoming MH upgrade which is uh scheduled for next week Monday >> nice >> we're taking the leap to 5 megabytes per second that's like 50k TPS and then via onchain governance. We can scale that another 4x to 20 megabytes per second. >> Wow. Which I >> So we could actually theoretically fit NASDAQ on Celestia after that.

>> And we had um Sam from Ryzon and they just they just acquired this BSX perex bring it into their chain. Uh I think it's RiseX now. >> RiseX is what they're calling it now. So they've they're they're obviously going to use Celestia and uh he seems super amped about how they're going to be able to juice this thing to 10 20 50k TPS. >> Yeah, exactly. And they're they have a very elite engineering team. >> Yeah. >> Um very also they're I I'm very bullish on teams like we're kind of in we can talk about this but in the stage of the market where uh it's very smart to be more vertical vertically integrated or even like dog food and build your own apps. Yeah. And so when I saw rise like moving in that direction, I got more bullish because before it was more like a hey, we have this super fast EVM,

>> you can build a club or you can build whatever you want on it. Um, and now with them I was like, but you guys are the perfect team to like build the cloud yourselves. Like also like >> are making a lot of money. Why would you, you know, build revenue, >> build the hard infrastructure part and then like, you know, give it away. Yeah. >> Um, and so I'm very bullish on that. And what's cool about Rise too is that so there's a lot of clubs that are not doing things on chain and that and that's a choice. I'm not saying that it's right or wrong. Yeah. And the market's going to decide what which which is right ultimately. But like so like lighter for example, >> my understanding is they do all the matching offchain and then they just post the state diffs uh and such onchain. That's really smart because it

allows them to be fully on on Ethereum, but then you have all the matching and everything offchain in a way that's not fully composable with other uh you know D5 primitives if if you want that. And so what I like about Rise is they're really articulating the why. >> Yeah. >> Why do all of the matching onchain as opposed to offchain? Why post every order onchain? Yeah. >> And it's because it allows you to build new D5 primitives and uh potentially have a a better like overall exchange and like ecosystem. And I think I don't know I don't know if Hyperl's ever like talked about that, but I assume that's part of why they also like have every order on chain. >> Yeah.

>> Um >> Yeah. Sam he made a point to to say it's all on chain. Like it is all on chain. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So clubs was kind of the subject of our last conversation and you guys have been focused there. catch us up to the now. >> Yeah. So, um I mean aside from so just just you know you mentioned Ry already. Yeah. Another launch just [snorts] on the cloud thing before we totally migrate now because it is like a big it's a big >> uh focus of ours. Bullet is is coming out soon. Um you know we've been working really closely with them. >> Um in fact they >> need matcha to be live because they they need that level of throughput already.

Um, so that's it's cool to feel like, okay, there's a reason like there was an urgency to ship this upgrade even though if you look at our blocks now, like they're 1% full or something. Yeah. >> But, um, then Ethereal recently launched. They're probably going to be scaling up uh over the next month. And we have a few other clubs that we've been talking to um that are kind of in the works, not not yet announced. So anyway, that that that's that's awesome. Um, let's see what else to sort of talk about. So the other upgrade, other aspects of matcha >> uh that are really cool is decreasing the issuance. >> So cutting the inflation >> in half. >> We saw Near do that I think last week or two weeks prior. Salana had been talking about it.

>> Did it did it go through on Near? Because I think um >> or or no >> I think it did governance. >> I know Salana is like pushing on it now. Um and you guys were working on the proof of governance concept, but it seems like so the inflation reduction is certainly going to go through now in MACHA then. >> Yeah, it's already it's part of the upgrade. >> So it drops the issuance to 2.5%. >> Yeah. >> And um I do think that like obviously longterm we have the plans for proof of governance which is going to >> get rid of staking altogether basically. >> Yeah. >> And then you just pay some very like point like 0.25% issuance to validators directly. Y >> uh and that's so that that's also shipping in matcha. Um I we're also focusing on uh a few really high priority users who uh also have very

high scaling needs, not club related >> um that that I can't share. Um but >> the like I think our strategy, you know, in this current market is like >> we used to be in this, you know, build whatever, right? Yeah. Like actually that's what's on the back of my shirt. Um, and the the reality is, at least for where we are in crypto right now, build whatever, like just being like, hey, you know, this is just a general purpose thing. It's everything to everyone, I think is not uh at least a winning strategy at this moment. I think it could work when you're Ethereum, your first mover, and people just want to experiment. But we're having this massive consolidation in crypto right now, I think, >> across the stack. uh and but it's I

think partly driven by just a lack of of applications with product market fit. >> Yeah. >> That actually drive your revenue and are sustainable. And so likewise I do think that that that that then filters to the infrastructure layer and we as Celestia as infrastructure providers have to kind of hone our offering to be more targeted to the select apps that do have product market fit. Yeah. >> Um and which we can also uh offer a really differentiated product to. Uh and that's why clubs obviously, but there there's a handful of others that we're exploring um that I can't disclose right now, which [laughter] is I know that's a total copout, but >> No, no, but there's a couple other things. Yeah. Yeah. Th >> this is happening all across the industry. Um Ethereum is doing this at the base level. They're talking about

ZKification and basically kingmaking two or three ZKVMs and they were never in a position that they would have done that. Uh and censorship resistance and credible neutrality is such a big part of their their mantra that you know what was like they should >> they should they should actually go more and deeper into that direction. And so you're completely you're completely right about the verticalization that's happening. What what is that how does Celestia think about that? How do you think about that? It seems like that's what's here and now. But do we think that is going to be a sustainable path for our entire industry? >> It's a good question. And I think if you study uh you know the history of of business like you see the even if you want to build a platform play long term which I do think like L1's a lot of

infrastructure they want to be a platform uh for people to build apps uh but they oftentimes start out with some degree of firstparty apps that they build on themselves or some degree of verticalization to get to cross the chasm or to like sort of get the baseline uh network effect or revenue that that then takes it to the next stage like with Microsoft, right? They they had Windows, but they also built Microsoft Office, right? And would Microsoft Windows have the same level of like distribution network effect if they didn't have those first party apps to actually make it useful and to like get the the first like crop of users on distribution? Like it's unclear. Um, and so I do think there's some degree to which I can see uh that same dynamic

playing out in the in the crypto space. I think this also interacts directly with the regulatory environment where completely >> you know a if you know a year ago even like pre-Trump um and the the new administration the new SEC >> um there was you know you you were actually pretty much had your hands tied behind your back like you you had to be you know we we it was not only an ideological thing about like we got to be incredibly neutral um but actually a regulatory pressure of uh if you start to like dabble too much in other layers like then you start to look you just take more and more risk y >> and I feel like that's the risk temporarily >> and so there's an opportunity um and I

think people are are you know jumping on it >> yeah and and it also speaks to the scale of the industry um you know we we've got a gift for you that'll get put this a little bit more into context but we're we're getting back to uh a lot of the principles and the and the value propositions and use cases that this industry was was based um one of those is payments and stable coin chains. Stable chains are are uh you know really hitting their stride >> and Celestia feels like it's it's a it's long-term games, long-term people and you know you guys are playing for the long haul when you're thinking about the type of scale that we're going to require on chain and and so at this point it feels like we can put NASDAQ on chain on Celestia. We can put uh Visa, Mastercard, we can put these things on

chain at at a at a certain point. we would anticipate that this uh this starts to happen. I'm I'm curious how how you think about some of these use cases that are starting to really overwhelm some of the existing pieces of infrastructure like Ethereum is starting to spill over into other chains, perpetuals, clubs, payments, these sorts of things like how how do we what is the acquisition strategy to ultimately make sure that ends up on Celestia? >> Great question. So, um I think it really depends on the So, like there's always like the end point and I feel like Celestia's always been building our architecture in a way where like the endgame of crypto we feel highly

confident is going to need something that looks like Celestia at its base. But I think if you were to rewind the clock to like four, three, four years ago, I would have thought that we would be from that require that endpoint has a precondition of like mass adoption kind of. >> Yeah. >> And it just feels like despite all the cool stuff that's being rolled out, we're still so far from actual mass adoption. And so like okay, if this is going to take longer, then the path dependency >> becomes more important to navigate. So uh it's a very good question like how do you what is what is the right way to navigate the path dependency that takes you from being you know the right endgame architecture but never actually >> being able to to to win because you didn't win in the in the intermediate

game that got there. Yeah. So that's that's what I think you're asking and I think what it comes down to is the narrowed focus as I said of like what are the apps that are actually that actually have PMF that have value that we can win >> and starting with that as a sort of like um a foothold and starting to then from there like iterate on that. Hopefully those apps continue to scale and and actually reach mass adoption and continue to uh improve the product with those users in a way that can eventually have its own flywheel. I think we have to also be starting to invest in >> the components of the stack that can >> uh engender more network effects.

>> Um so things that relate to interoperability and stuff like that. Um, but really I think it's just like there's there's only like 10 apps that matter and like just [ __ ] win some of them. Yeah. You know, >> one of the things that I'm really enjoying about this week compared to we were in SmartCon two weeks ago in New York City and it was, you know, Fidelity and Black Rockck and a lot of these financial institutions and that was great. A lot of capital in there, but it's not as exciting to me because here we're learning about technological resources and solutions that end up opening the next breadth and world of that financial that financial world. It was just all finances. >> It was It was all It was all finance.

And it felt like >> It's kind of boring, honestly, but it but it's close to I mean, >> it was almost like we had all we had it all figured out. Like they were ready to bring stable coins on chain. They weren't asking for some net new technology. No, >> one thing that we're hearing about like today and this week is that there are use cases that the technology isn't ready yet. And to your point about, you know, uh, bullet, it gives you that sense of fire like, "Oh, wait. we need to ship this now because there's customers and teams that are relying on us to increase the throughput and and one of those that that I wanted to bring up is is uh FX Forex like this is something that we think is a natural logical next step to stable coins and the forex market is one of the most

liquid markets in the world. The technology is not ready for it and and you know there are only a hand just a few select projects that are able to operate at that scale. I believe Celestia is one of them. And so, you know, uh was it [clears throat] Hanan from Codeex was was talking about how this is, uh actually he was bullish on FX. There was it was Luca from M0 who said he's bearish on >> onchain FX because it's too big of a market. The technology can't handle it right now. >> I love that pool prove him wrong >> and just like unbundle that entire >> Exactly. It would be too much of a lift to unwind that market and rebuild it on chain. And so maybe it's going to happen, but a decade from now, it feels like that is what lights a fire under our ass to like actually ship it now.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and that's the use case that requires the type of scale that Celestia has. >> And I think I think that's that's Celestia's opportunity is if we can if we can get through this window, this like door that's open to actually build like onchain finance at scale >> like there that's >> I feel I I truly feel that like Celestia is right now one of the only viable platforms to do that. Um, and now we still have to prove ourselves more. And I think like when once people, let's say Bullet is actually successful or one of these other clubs that we're working with is successful, like people's people's eyes are going to light up and be like, "Holy [ __ ] like that's possible to do." And then and I already think that we're kind of starting to be in this arms race of like I I'm seeing

all these announcements of like new people from Tradfi especially like some HFT thing or from Black Rockck and they're like we're going to build the next onchain exchange or marketplace for this thing. And um I I think that like that's only going to accelerate. I'm sure also I mean you talked to a lot of these trady institutions they're probably thinking about like building those platforms themselves I'm guessing I mean I don't >> then then it's a kind of interesting question of like and then you know it's something I we need to think about at Celelesia too is like okay there are tra there are opportunities in the institutional side there's opportunities in the more cryptonative or like startup side yeah which one are are you are should we be more focused on because >> I don't know incumbents are slower and

like maybe they don't really get it and like there's certain disadvantages and versus like a upstart hungry team. >> Yeah. >> More native to the technology thinking rethinking things from first principles could be a winner. I'm I'm c actually curious to hear like you guys being on both sides like what you see. >> The saying is can a can an incumbent figure out the technology before a startup can figure out distribution >> or something like that. Yeah. No, I mean yeah I >> mean >> that's a good way to put it. >> I think you're right though. It's like these long sales cycles and these long processes versus just like ship ship ship code code. Y I mean it's a bit of both, right? And I think our our perspective is just that like from SmartCon that the that the table is being set right now. Like there's like

this multi-year window of adoption right now from the largest capital allocators in the world and like you got to get a seat at that table because then you know then >> that'll set set you up for the onslaught of network the network effects of that table and the those initial first movers at a certain point there's there's this inflection point where it becomes a risk not to go on chain. Yeah. >> So if you're in that room at that table >> easier said than done >> right when that inflection point happens they all then it all becomes inbound. Um, Nick, couple rapid fire things. We're on low on time. Privacy has been a big uh theme here. It's kind of, you know, Zcash's gone this crazy run. Everyone's excited. Uh, is there any updates from the private DA product? Is that something that that is like public

or not or kind of where are you guys at with that? >> Yeah, so uh private block space is live in production with Hibachi. >> Beautiful. >> Um, you can expect an announcement about that um soon like in the next month or so. >> Cool. >> Um, we are I I do see a lot of demand about that from the institutional side. >> Yeah, definitely. So, it's definitely something on my mind and we also talked to some crypton native teams who are like, "Oh, sweet." Like, I could get this like dexes, other dexes being like, "Oh, I could make my order flow or my my positions on my exchange more uh more private and like that's that's kind of a nice feature." So, definitely. >> Yeah. James win the public uh saga of him getting liquidated for 100 mil really set that into reality of like, wow, okay, maybe it's not the best if

hyperlquids all of our positions are public. It's >> exactly. >> Uh other thing is you talked about this dog fooding of your own infrastruct. What is uh your perspective on that from Celestia? Is that something that you guys are focused on? How how are you guys kind of thinking about building apps using all this block space that you have? Are you guys focused on that or is it more kind of like customer acquisition and app acquisition? Where's kind of like the uh like a split? >> I I would say still primarily focused on like app acquisition mostly because just like we talked about this onchain finance opportunity is so like ripe and immediate. the and I would say maybe like a 20% focus on the more like verticalization uh type stuff. >> Um and so I mean that could that could

change but for now like >> feeling pretty good about like the the clubs and onchain finance stuff and some of the other things that we're working on. >> All right. Well, let's give Nick our lovely gifts. Um our our core brand message has been um return to fundamentals. >> We've been pushing it hard. I know that you're an OG in the space and I think you'll appreciate this. Um, so here's your here's your first gift here and we'd like you [laughter] switch that out. >> Maybe that one was for >> Cammy. Okay, I need a large. Thanks. >> What is that? What does this mean to you? Maybe you can tell tell the audience why you care about the return to fundamentals from your perspective getting into the space so early, etc.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, you know, people might not like me saying this, but you know, we're we're getting our ass kicked as an industry right now, at least from the market perspective. >> Yeah. >> And to some degree, I think it's deserved because like we have had all this time to deliver actual value to users and businesses and like we don't have that much to show for it. We have a bunch of like speculation and gambling and cool cool a lot of cool tech. Yeah. But like the moment is now to like put up or shut up and and like sometimes you need to get your ass kicked a little bit to you know snap into action and f and refocus. Like it's you can get complacent when like too things come too easily >> and you you forget that maybe you don't deserve them. And so I feel like what's

good is like it's a just kind of a wakeup call to all of us to be like, yo, we kind of lost the plot a little bit or like we just got distracted from what should have always been the goal and our star which is like let's create value in the world. >> Y >> uh and um it's you know for people who hate crypto like I hate to say say it but like you know it's hard to really have an argument to my mom be like yeah crypto's created all this value in the world. You know what I mean? like look at what it's done. I mean certain things absolutely but then like >> do we matter as an industry to the average human in Argentina with stable coins like course that's what's so nice about being here is like it's like >> we're in this pit of despair this valley of despair like [laughter]

>> like where are the users and like what's the meaning of all this >> like there's meaning in a place like this >> like true like lifeboat for an average family >> totally a way to store value to exit like a filthy fiat like inflation uh financial controls, all these things. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And like trade and business and and all that. So, >> got a couple more things for you. Uh we're building a Spotify playlist with all of our guests this week. Uh what what song would you like to add? And what have you been kind of, you know, vibing to lately? >> Question. Okay. This is kind of a out there thing. It's not going to fit your >> No, it's Dude, Trust me, it's been all over. There's a whole spectrum here.

>> Okay. This might be the farthest out there one. Okay. Um I really love listening to in the mornings. >> Yeah. >> Uh classical Indian ragas which are like satar and like the tubla drums and stuff. Uh it's very meditative. >> Uh you may or you probably may have never heard of it that kind of music. You might you would probably recognize it if it was but >> classical north Indian ragas. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> That that is out there. That is out there. >> No but listen. [laughter] Okay. Trust me, >> wake it up.

>> Okay. Wake up in the morning and like put put that on in the background >> and like it's like a massage for your brain. It just helps me like reset and get more creative and focused. Like it kind of goes in the background. You know what I mean? It's like helps me focus and just like I feel like my brain is getting like Yeah. massaged and like reset. >> I am so excited to listen to that. Uh we do have another gift for you. This will this won't massage your brain. It'll massage your your taste buds. >> Okay. [laughter] Uh this is from lambda team from lambda class fed and the guy >> makes those grapes that goes into that malar.

>> They have an orchard that they uh make the grapes and they make the wine and uh they wanted you to have that. So >> sweet. They should they got like >> brand it right? Yeah. Lando wine. Yeah. >> That one's for you and this one's for the Celestia team. >> Oh, holy crap. Thank you guys. >> These are some of the best wines in uh in Argentina. And >> I have to say I've been really enjoying the Malbecks. Like I didn't get the hype, but now I do. Nice and sweet. And we have our dinner later tonight. Hopefully see you guys there. >> I think we're going to be locked in here, but we're going to try [laughter] try our best. >> How long are you guys going for? >> Uh we have another hour and a half here and then just like >> and then postproduction editing

>> begin. >> Conferences these days are a little bit different. We're going to take a quick commercial [laughter] break. Nick White from Celestia. We'll be right back with our next guest, guys. Thank you. Is built for big moments. the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. [music] Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io.

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billion dollar transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. Colshi is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today.

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infinifi.xyz. Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz XYZ to never write a smart contract again. Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stable coin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today.

Beat is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. [music] Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. [music] Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his Rio upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. Colshi is the world's largest [music] prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

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Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

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Havachi is fast and private per [music] trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to [music] start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just [music] that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz XYZ to never write a smart contract again.

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wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing [music] the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. [music] Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his Rio upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest [music] chains for stable coin transfers and payments.

Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's largest [music] prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia [music] underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable defy platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. XYZ Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again.

[music] Open, stable, borderless. FRA is building the next generation of stable coin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today. Ye is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot

wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to >> Cheers to a big week. >> I'm on some water. I don't know. That's

bad luck, I think. >> I think I got I think I got a glass of mat coming my way. >> Quintis, man, welcome to the show. >> Thanks for having me. >> Big Flashbots fans here. >> Yeah. When did you get started at Flashbots? >> It's been uh three and a half years now. Almost four. >> Nice. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's been been there for a while, but I guess maybe not so much on the product scene on the research side. That's what I've been doing, but uh but yeah, I'm relatively involved with the product things as well. >> What have you been researching? >> It started off being very like um u like e research blog posty kind of uh more on the incentive side. Uh and then about a year and a half ago um we realized like the whole the big part of the industry is just going full steam ahead on TES

with super interested in TE's obviously um but the security aspect of it just really doesn't make any sense or you know in the long run doesn't make sense and and uh so I've been spending time looking at what it means to improve security like from the ground up from the silicon up. Uh so I've gone from like incentives, auctions, these kind of things being most of my job to that being a small fraction and the rest being like physical silicon security. >> There was uh recently uh an exploit potentially a patch uh going back a while there was the SGX uh debacle and then more recently we had TDX and this was some recent developments in TE world. Maybe you could just kind of catch people up as to what's been happening in the last couple

weeks. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like Intel got got hit or something, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so actually it's funny. Um, if you are a bit more familiar with the like technical details, the last couple of weeks just haven't been that much of an interesting update, but for some reason the PR side of it was huge. Like people in crypto Twitter got really excited. Basically what happened was um couple years ago um it's actually interesting and longer story but basically a couple years ago Intel said uh hey we're not going to try to fend against physical attackers anymore.

Everything's going in the cloud. We want to like optimize for performance because that's the kind of usage they were seeing at the time. Um and so they removed protection protections against physical attackers. Um and basically what happened over the last couple of months is that a a group of researchers uh showed what you could do if you had physical attack to uh physical access to the machines. >> This was TE. >> Funfail te. >> TF fun's way too friendly. >> Right. Right. No, it was it was showing that this was a vulnerability in >> TE. Yeah. Yeah. So like if you ask Intel, they'll say this is not a vulnerability because they never claim to protect against physical attackers.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, but obviously it just highlights a problem that there exists already in the TE threat model. It's just not new information. I don't mean to say that the existing TEES are super secure and don't have like their limitations. Um, but this specific uh attack actually doesn't like share much new information. >> Got it. >> Okay. This was the DDR5 attack, this memory bus inter. >> I can explain it. Yeah, please. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the basic idea is like you have the chip where the processor lives. That's where all the that's where the brain is. Uh, but most of the memory, the RAM lives off the chip. And those are connected with the bus. And so what these guys did is they said, "Okay,

well, we can just monitor what's going back and forth on this bus." Um, and by doing that, they they uh because there were no proper protections, they were able to um, you know, pull off the attack, extract the keys. they they wanted to and then pretend like they were uh a TE when in fact it was like some you know malicious program running on their laptop. >> Right. Right. And then this TDX was the patch for that uh that vulnerability. >> No. So uh originally Intel came out with SGX. That was like their first uh TE product. Uh then there were a couple of different versions of that. But the main switch um happened when they released TDX, which is like a um a newer version. It's a VM based TE as opposed to processbased TE.

That's like a little bit in the weeds. We can get into that if you want, but um the main difference is that the TDX is just way easier to use. >> Uh and the sacrifice they they uh the trade-off they take to make it easier to use is that there's just more code in your what's called the trusted computing base. So like the trusted computing base is basically the like um all the code that you're relying on for security and the bigger that code base is the larger the chances of bugs the larger the chances that you have bugs in there. Um and so it's like a worse practice from a security perspective but it's more performant but it's just a Intel T product basically.

>> Okay, got it. So um the the security guard outside of the database is responsible for managing the physical hardware. Intel is not responsible for that. Um and we are then taking these and putting billions and billions of dollars on chain relying on these TES that is relying on a pistol with a loaded chamber of some guy getting paid $8 an hour. >> The technical term is a guy with a Glock, not a man with a pistol. Uh but but um uh we're not we're not putting um uh billions of dollars in the TE. I think I think that's like the Twitter narrative.

>> Yes, that is. It's like, oh, we're going to lose everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. But but uh >> I think the Twitter narratives are really funny because you can also see who's pushing it and what the incentives are. But but um but yeah, I mean that is the situation. Ultimately, you do rely on the physical uh protections of the data center. I think the thought the thought experiment uh is like what else breaks >> if you assume that the cloud providers in your threat model like if AWS and Azure and GCP had it in for for >> had it in for crypto like what would what would break you know I think a lot of things would would break that doesn't mean we should rely on them but it also is like uh I think one of the trust assumptions that many people are making implicitly

>> yeah I >> can we talk about builder Yeah, please. >> Wait, one one thing before we move off the TEES there. This is some like somewhat related to this trusted this secure enclave that we're seeing uh in pieces of hardware earlier. Uh Anscar from the Ethereum Foundation said that in Glamsterdam, they're going to have uh this ability for secure enclaves in like an iPhone or uh you know a Galaxy phone uh for native hardware, native wallets uh built in to these to these products. um how like when when we're shifting away do are we going to see less cloud and more like localized compute localized AI models localized cryptocurrency

uh localized ZK proving is that do you anticipate this shift or these these two mutually exclusive it's not the right way to think about it >> I think it's a super complicated question I think obviously we'd like to do more stuff locally and as we get you know more more efficient proofs, more efficient LLMs. We'd like to run more and more of that locally. Uh at the same time, that isn't the trend we've seen in like the digital world over the last several decades. Uh and also, you know, leaving aside performance and efficiency, you have the, you know, the problem that um people turn their phones off or they lose signal or whatever. If you need if you need some software, some program to be online um most of the time then you kind of have to run it in a server and you don't have most people don't have a server at home.

>> Yeah. >> So what have been some of the latest uh breakthroughs from flashbots or latest research developments that you guys have been focused on? I mentioned builderet for kind of like block building but where's the team's focus been the last six months or so? >> Yeah, so uh flashbots product team um is basically working on two fronts. One is in L1, one is on L2. There's a closely related, but it's an easy way of of splitting it up. On the L1, we're working on builderet. Um, and there there's a couple of different facets to it. The like high level goal is to, you know, get a competitive decentralized block builder running. Um one aspect of that is actually making it like decentralized meaning that it's uh you know uh not a trust me bro system and and and um that's just a lot of like te

based engineering and and um uh a lot of work there but then there's also an economic aspect to it um which is like you know for example um people have this like very basic model of how block building works okay there's some searcher searcher sends a transaction to a block builder they pay the block builder and then the block builder lands a block on chain. Um, but actually what ends up happening is that there's all of these uh more complicated arrangements where um like block builders are paying people who control order flow to send them order flow under certain conditions and it's more like more complicated >> and is that happening onchain or offchain? Uh maybe the payments will happen onchain uh sometimes but but it's very trusted definitely it's it's not uh

some some complicated setup for the centralized block builders um and for builderet to be a competitive um decentralized block builder we need to replicate a similar kind of of um economic properties and so you know as the system generates value you want to give that back to uh the users who are sending flow searches whoever is contributing to the Um and so we have like this um it's called the refund rule. It's a v zero now basically and we're not you know it's it's uh it works fine for now but we're trying to iterate on that but the the high level idea is like how do we design a economic mechanism to share back the value that's being generated by by the system.

>> Um yeah and then obviously when it comes to Mayvland you just need to engineer for performance as well. Uh you got to be low latency and that's why we're interested in TE's. What's your uh what's your company's perspective on the unification proposal from unis swap with regards to kind of uh builder fee or uh fee auctions for LPS and trying to kind of like package me in a new way versus how like aerodrome and those dexes do it uh with regards to LVR and kind of having this uh ve token model to capture these fees and do it kind of in a different way >> like does flashbots have a have a a perspective on this? Well, I don't think you'll find any issue in which Flashbots has a perspective on it because we're like what? We're like a hacker

collective, right? That's the the term people like and so they're different opinions. >> I'm not super educated on the recent unis swap developments. Um but I do think that one of the important things we're seeing play out in L2 land and just generally the space is that um you know applications want to capture fees um and especially the sort of offchain infrastructure related fees >> um and uh yeah we actually one of the most interesting uh projects we're working on is uh an auction that you know works in the L1 and the the L2 setting but it's like more more so designed for the L2 setting where they're dealing with a lot of spam right now. It's wasting resources, but also um the spam is sort of a symptom of a lot

of value that's not being captured by the infrastructure, not being captured by the sequencer, and that can always be uh reallocated to LPs or whatever else you want to allocate it to. >> Yeah. >> Um on on the unis swap track, uh and specifically uni chain, you guys released rollup boost. It was something that uh uni uni chain was adopting. Um, I'm just curious like we had Robert and Hassu on the show talking about that. Uh, and it seemed like this would be a thing that not just Uni Chain uses but all rollups would eventually use. >> Uh, is there a product update or status update as far as like how that adoption has been going?

>> Yeah, I'd say the focus right now is on making like a really good building experience for the super chain. >> Um, and the this auction is a big part of that. Um the original benefit of using rollup boost was to use like flash flash blocks uh system we built which basically just allows the rollup to um like commit to smaller blocks faster. So you went from like a one second block time or two second block time to a couple hundred milliseconds. Um and that's just great for DeFi use cases. Um yeah, I think that's probably the the product update I'll give there. What is the next, you know, we're coming on time here. What what is the next kind of uh initiative from Flashbots

into Q4, next kind of Q1, Q2 next year? Like is there something else that you guys are really pushing towards that you can share kind >> that you're personally excited about or something that Flash Bots as a collective? >> Yeah, I'd say Flashbots is always doing a lot of interesting stuff and it's really hard to keep up with it, but I'll just give you an overview. I think this auction design we're doing is really interesting and what's most interesting about it is that you want to incorporate uh information from the from the block building process into this kind of auction because you know from the perspective of some searcher or some economic actor who sits outside the system they're always guessing. They never know exactly what state of the chain they're going to be executing against. They don't know exactly what the liquidity is. This is true in

traditional finance, true in in crypto. uh and the more information you can give them the better that execution is going to be and that's overall better for the for the ecosystem better trades more traders these kind of things um and um you know the challenge is you want to share this information with people but you don't want to compromise security you don't want to get people front run um and I think we have some really interesting TE based designs for that other things that are and that I think will touch both L1 and L2 um other interesting stuff we're doing I'm obviously biased I think just a lot of the research we're doing is interesting and my own research on like secure hardware that's not a next quarter kind of thing but I think it's really important for the long-term viability of TEES like you you have to you know you

have to have some some plan for decentralization and I think these kind of things enable that >> and then uh um finally I don't know if you guys have been following like Andrew Miller and these kind of guys flashbots X it's like our moonshots um aspect of flashbots and they've been doing just like crazy stuff but it's it's basically sort of exploiting me in the real world. He's given a bunch of talks recently on adversarial interop. Um, and it's cool. It's like it's uh um doesn't feel like blockchain stuff when you look at it at first, but it it uh is very much bringing like the cipher punk energy to to like I don't know, social media and these kind of things. Yeah.

>> Uh Chris, we're building a Spotify playlist um for the weekend. I it seems like you've been having a good time at some discoas, bro. Um any any songs to add? Uh, are you saying I look hung over? >> Yeah, a little bit. Rude. That's a bit rude. >> No, come on, man. It's just your shirt. >> Um, >> you look like you've gone to the Hawaiian Beach Club and back. >> Uh, yeah. This is just how we dress at Flashbox. I um >> Well, okay. Um, Santorini, Donnie Bennett. Do you guys know Donnie Bennett? That's not It's not a rave song, but that's a that's a track, though. And you should look at the music video.

>> Donnie Bennett. Beautiful. Got it. >> Um, dude, we have some wine for you as well. Yeah, we do. >> You know, FedE and the Lambda team. >> Fede has uh has strong influence in the Argentina uh country. That is for you. That's from >> That's to Flashbots. That's that's to your night. >> Actually, that one is for you and this one is for Flashbots. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, man. So, >> and so that is from Lambda class. Those are those are for you. Would you like a t-shirt? >> I would love a t-shirt. Okay. >> Yeah. We've got a a return to fundamentals shirt. Part of our core ethos here at the rollup. Yeah. Uh really just trying to, you know, keep this industry on the right track. You know what I mean?

>> That one should fit you. That one's a large. So why don't you, you know, uh hold that up in front of your wine bottles and tell this camera what Return of Fundamentals means to you. >> Return of fundamentals. Uh for me, crypto fundamentals is finding ways to take privacy, take security, and things you really care about and turn that into economic value. And that's what we need to focus on. >> Bang. right now. >> Dude, thanks for coming on, man. >> It's been a pleasure. >> Pleasure. >> Yeah, it's been a marathon here, guys. We're gonna take a quick break. Be be back with Sean from Magic. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

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Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if [music] you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get [music] a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

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Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. [music] Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinifi is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again.

Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stablecoin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today. Yeet is built for big moments, the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. [music] From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if [music] you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure

your coins. Get [music] a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets [music] now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his Rio upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. [music] Visit Polygon Technology to learn more.

KHI is the world's largest prediction [music] market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade [music] today. All righty, guys. We are back live at Rollup TV in Benosis. We've got Sean Lee, co-founder, CEO of Magic Labs, calling in. Sean, how you doing, man? >> I am doing great. It's good to see you guys. I wish I'm there in person. >> It's [laughter] good to see you. I think the last time that we saw each other, we were in the magic office in New York, uh, hosting an event and, uh, it's been a lot of fun. You guys have been great partners. Uh, and uh, we throw we throw some really fun events. Uh, wish you wish you were here and thrown our event down at Buenos Aris, but you guys have been busy. You guys have been busy

shipping uh, case studies, programmable compliance, policy engine. Uh, talk to us about all the things uh, and what you're most excited about recently at Magic. >> Yeah, it's all coming together actually. So all the um kind of critical pieces right around the protocol it's all coming together and we are um finalizing and iterating on ways to kind of bring this to market really like as you can see more use case studies SDKs there's uh and we're just trying to get feedback like early feedback from people developers community members we've lined up quite a few customer conversations as well Um, and we did also discover quite a bit of synergy with the Magic Labs uh,

pool of developers and customers. So, just super excited about that. A lot to build. So, I've been really involved and hands-on just in terms of like, okay, like what do we what can we focus on right now? Um, that's like the highest impact and just kind of see it through. Uh, even wrote wrote some code myself. So, uh, it's, uh, it's been pretty great. Uh, >> snack in the lab, cooking. >> Man, you guys have you guys have had some awesome partners. I know that uh uh you guys have had this case study that I've seen on X this week about supporting uh Poly Market with over $3 billion in volume during the 2024 election night as well as other kind of key players in the in the DeFi landscape with your uh embedded embedded wallet

products as well as this kind of suite of just better UX for crypto users. Um you know making onchain systems safe, verifiable, scalable. maybe just talk us through some of these case studies and the successes that you know you guys have seen and learnings from that that you're applying now to Newton uh with the recent collaboration with Magic Labs and Newton and just generally kind of how that stack is shaping up. Take us through some of the lore if you will. >> Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um I mean when Magic uh first started back in 2018 um we were very um fixiated on solving UX problems, right? because at that time the de facto standard was creating wallets to receive phrases right um and this like email based wallet social login wallet hasn't really existed yet

so um when we first we focused on UX and we all of course we went through multiple cycles right so many apps make it some of them kind of phase out new ones come in and for the applications that has remained um it's actually becoming really apparent, right, that risk management and compliance is very important for these customers. Um, so I think there's like this situation with okay, DAB's coming up, they're getting started really quickly, you know, perhaps arbitrageing some like legality, right, to get to um traction. But you know when they get serious and they want to be more established on board actual mainstream users or institutions they

will need better like compliance and and risk management right so um and and that's sort of a hunch that we always had you know we try to fit this in different use cases right like oh would this work great for like securing AI agents because those are autonomous transactions they need better compliance and risk management management too, right? RWA stable coins need risk management because a lot of that is going on the smart contract, right? Hardcoded, but as you know like um these kind of regulations and laws actually is uh rapidly evolving and they actually need to like verify off-chain data, right? Which is not something that you can bring onchain. So, so we do see an

opportunity to fix that problem by introducing uh the Newton protocol and bringing um uh sort of this verifiable offchain data into a policy onchain, right? To generate a proof of compliance. Um and that's going to really help uh protect, you know, the transactions that's happening on chain. uh whereas uh the magic wallet is is securing the wallet and Newton will secure the transaction right is is is the idea here. So um we do see that this is the next unlock because our uh goal has always been about onboarding the mainstream right users. Uh so not only we need to make it simple but we also need to protect the consumers. Uh so so that's the uh a bit

a bit of the lore uh here. This feels critical for what what we're calling this institutional era of blockchain adoption. Um, not only are we seeing uh several different structured financial products, be it CLOS's, private credit lending and borrowing, uh, all of these institutions are coming on chain and they're really starting to take blockchain seriously. All of them require compliance. What we're also seeing, we're in Argentina, you're in I'm actually not sure where where Sean is right now, but we've seen you in New York. And so we're seeing institutional adoption all across the world, all across Latin America, all across Europe. Uh all of these have a very fragmented compliance landscape. There's different rules. There's identity. You know, in America, maybe it's social security numbers in other places. It's other

aspects of individuals that are required. How does Magic and Newton help make it easier for teams to bring compliance standards onchain and and make sure that they are in compliant? >> Yeah. So, so that statement is spot on, right? And and it's it's um so if you think about it like blockchains, open blockchains I'm talking about um are quite permissionless, right? which means anyone can transact with anyone including bad actors right and there's nothing on chain that can really prevent that. Um and uh because of this right like every edge that touches user funds you know like a wallet a app uh or

exchanges they have to implement their own compliance stack separately right with their own risk controls. Um and what's interesting is that um in kind of modern dabs this is not even working because you can just export a private key then all the risk management that you have done in the wallet and application can be bypassed right completely. So um and I think this creates a massive duplication and operational cost for companies and I believe is the major blocker right uh for just like crypto applications to graduate from like regulatory arbitrage to a serious enterprise trusted by everyday users. Um you know imagine five different platforms end up running five

different checks on the same user each have slightly different rules and data sources. end result is pretty inconsistent and kind of affects the user experience as well. Um so I think you know maybe it's a more controversial view is that compliance actually needs to move to the protocol layer uh because the risk is no longer appsp specific but network uhwide right so >> um so with that comes a couple of like building blocks right um one is you know we need to standardize how policies are expressed uh in the first place right and shared across applications they cannot be something that's like preparatory to like different like world gardens um to kind of preserve that

openness and standardization that the space have grown accustomed to right um and that's also great for like innovation and like composability. So that's like a principle that um we're we're designing. Um but also you know attach this verified attestations directly to the transactions and wallets uh with that like onchain proof of compliance that we talked about. Um you know while preserving privacy of course because that's a huge um uh like an important factor when it comes to identity. um and also producing this proof so that regulators, auditors, counterparties can all can all like independently verify them on chain, right? So, so this actually creates this almost like a shared new shared primitive um which is like this policy,

right? That's the foundational building block for um bringing more compliance on chain. >> Yeah, man. So, you know, we spent the, you know, two weeks ago, we were at SmartCon NYC. We had that uh event with the magic team at the office and securityize, wisdom tree and others. And what you're saying is so exactly spot-on for this this kind of realm. And then here in Argentina, it's completely juxtaposed in terms of the actual, you know, types of people as builders. It's this really, you know, developer oriented conversations a lot around the technology. Um, you know, we've been thinking a lot about bridging these two worlds together and like what is required to do that and it just truly feels like this unlock that you're speaking about um, you know, is is a big part of that uh, process. I guess my

question to you is kind of you know if that's the case and we firmly believe that you know what is stopping this from actually being implemented at scale why why have we not been able to successfully you know create uh policy or basically uh compliant uh architectures for either agentic uh use cases for onchain use cases uh or just various types of uh you know blockchain based applications. What has stopped us from actually implementing what you guys are building as well as this kind of general philosophy at scale? Is there a specific kind of like uh process that that needs to happen? Is there a a chronological order of events that you know you would anticipate? Uh or maybe you can even draw back to some of the previous uh history that you've seen.

Just kind of curious like what is required to get over this hump. Yeah, I I think that's a great question and I think about that a lot because like obviously we need to do this but like why isn't it happening and I had the same thought when we were building like embed wallets. It's like it should be this way because if we care about adoption and getting users in then we should have this simple experience and try to bang our head head against the wall to figure it out right. Um same thing with compliance and like risk management. Um and and I think there's multiple reasons. I I think number one was um I think generally the macro environment um was more um you know antagonistic you know previously um where where it's like

if you're crypto you're kind of you know like not being perceived as super compliant right at least even though companies do try to spend a lot of resource on trying to be compliant so there's that perception which diminishes uh sort of the need right for this. Um and second I think it might be philosophical uh as well uh where um we experienced this with embed wallets too. Um we were kind of criticized as like centralized uh in the very early uh phases. So I had to you know deal a a lot with that. Um but you know it has eventually became a standard right while one of the key benefit of embed wallet

is to uh make sure it is composable with everything onchain right like defy without creating like wallets that's in world gardens um that can only you know interact with a few things right so um so that like openness is the balance that we try to achieve obviously by designing the infrastructure using TE and other type of um like confidential computer technologies, right? Like we can achieve that middle ground, but it takes a lot of work to get there to find the middle ground that both like the cypher punks and the institutions are happy with.

>> So I think with with risk management is the same thing, right? It's like um I don't know maybe it's almost like a heresy, right? to say oh I bring um compliance on chain embedded in these smart contracts. Um but but my view it's more around hey like if you are the fundamental chain um I think you should remain relatively uh credibility neutral right but um if it's like a contract right then you have the optionality right to open it up or um try to be compliant to protect the end users and giving developers and applications the option right to upgrade based on their need Right. Um kind of

like dark web, you know, like so >> yeah, [laughter] the good old days. So we uh you know, we had uh Sergey from Chainling talking about these institutional smart contract. I can't help but think it sounds so so uh you know, similar and really just in a similar kind of train of thought here like what a traditional smart contract was back in the day, if you will, or even current. That is not what the future of smart contracts, if you will, is going to be. And and I think you clearly see that happening. It's policy, it's it's it's oracles, it's off-chain and onchain uh functions, it's multi-chain, it's multi-app. So it's like the definition of like a single smart contract executing a function or a call on a single chain for a single app is really expanding due to the nature of, you know, there's a demand for

privacy. There's a there's demand for lower latency. So we're coming up on time a bit here. Sean, I think Rob's got something. One last thing to mention here is that as you expand that to its limit, it becomes ubiquitous. And one thing that I'm realizing, especially here in Argentina, is that there's a real need for decentralization, decentralized assets. Uh we we spoke with uh the head of innovation of uh in inside the Argentina government. They're working on a company called SORA and they're implementing digital identity and private digital identity using ZK as a result of this. And I can't help but think as we're starting to be more compliant with our our products and our thinking, they will become adopted by the largest players in the space, governments and nation states are responsible for the largest groups of

people on Earth. And so we're seeing adoption at a nation state level uh scale. I think uh the the product that you guys are working on when it comes to programmable compliance is especially important. So Sean, just pass it over to you. Uh some closing thoughts on your end as you prepare for this next institutional era and you start to prepare for the billions of people and and the scale at which this represents. Yeah, I you know I've always very excited to see this coming um because it was um you know I thought it would come last cycle but I feel like we're very close this cycle um because like we have been positioned to be the most like friendly to like enterprise and institutions even with magic embed wallets it's still the only sub to type

and ISO compliant and uh even like we have HIPPA right because we care about privacy see a lot. So, it's finally coming and we have developed this technology that works really really well with um like the embed wallet offering as well. Um and you know we're very used to handling kind of super large scale or very complex like vetting process from institutions like neighbor um and also um supporting scale uh with poly market right so like we hand over like 62 million requests during election day and have processed over uh 8.9 billion right in volume to date for them um so but yeah like it's there's so much to do and you know there's no silver bullet for scaling. So it's really like iteration

working with the space and our customers on trying to find the best solution forward. Um but you know usually if it's something that's great you know people can kind of meet in like um like a middle ground right when uh and focus on real adoption right and just getting people into this. So the pie is much bigger right for for everybody. So, I'm very excited to be able to uh I think be one of the first to be able to help drive this. Um that's so core to what we've already been doing. So, so this is uh uh definitely really exciting.

>> Incred. We're on hour seven of this marathon. We're going to have to let you go. We've got our last two guests here in the studio. We wish that you were here. It's been a great week. Energy is palpable regardless of the market conditions. Builders are building. People are shipping. EF has really turned a positive vibe uh and really it kind of feels like a reversal uh in the overall energy with regards to supporting builders and just supporting the Ethereum ecosystem. Sean, thanks for calling in, man. Keep up the great work. We really appreciate uh working with you guys through our event series as well as more and more that we've done. Shout out to the Magic team and uh thanks, man. >> Thank you. Looking forward to see you next time. >> Same here, Sean. We'll see you next

time. >> All right, buddy. All right, >> same here. Sean, we'll see you next time. >> All right, buddy. All righty, guys. We've got our next guest uh up here in the studio, Juan David Mendetta, the founder of K-Rock. Um it should be a great conversation. Uh we will >> just uh do a quick commercial break and we'll be >> is built for big moments. the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game.

Not your keys, not your coins. [music] From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you [music] are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a [music] Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his Rio upgrade, Polygon is

now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's [music] largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. [music] Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast [music] and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go [music] to habachi.xyz to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable defy platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. XYZ >> holiday is unified crypto course. Yeah. Thank you, man. I'm uh I'm glad we made it happen. >> All righty, guys. Juan, welcome to

Rollup TV live in Bonosis. >> Thank you very much. >> How's the city treating you? >> Very good. I've been here 15 years ago. [laughter] >> You've been living here for a while. >> No, no, no, no. I came once. 15 years ago. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. >> So, I have a little bit of a reference of how it used to look. >> Yeah. >> Looks the same. Really? >> More expensive. >> More way more expensive. [laughter] Right. I was here in 2023 and it's dramatically more expensive. >> Dramatically. >> Yeah. It's crazy because the peso to the USD has gotten way worse. So, you would think that it's actually better, but it's just not. Like they've just raised the prices significantly. >> Yeah. I remember it was 10 to1 when I came last time. >> Wow. I was here was 300 to1. Now it's

1400 to1. >> 1400 to one. >> Um, first time on the show. Juan Davids. I would love to hear about Krock about I mean if you want to have some coffee feel free brother. Absolutely. Thank you. I mean we know Krock as kind of one of the larger uh kind of asset management capital allocators general kind of like infrastructure not infrastructure providers but providers of of liquidity in the market. Absolutely. Um you know you have a trading firm etc. What what is Krock? What what's your story? You know you're the founder. You you've been doing this for a while. Catch us up on on the lore. It's your first time here man. >> Yeah absolutely. So look, I've been working on this for about eight years now. So it's been a it's been a good journey for me. Um we started in in 2017 uh with a very very core simple idea which is um the only reason that you

want to tokenize something is for it to be liquid and and that simple idea took us to the conclusion that liquidity was the core value proposition of blockchain technology or at least that was that was our our motto. And so so with that in mind and understanding that there would be you know hundreds of thousands if not millions of assets being tokenized over the next decades we uh we went on how to build a scalable liquidity technology. That's how the company got started and then from there we we scaled that to all kind of uh financial services to help the industry to to get adoption which took us to today where where we are I would say diversified financial institution. uh you would you could look at it as as a new investment bank. >> Okay.

>> What do what do you think changes from you know we we've grown up in crypto like we've talked to thousands of projects. I'd say we've been you know building this this media company and this podcast going back six years. And so we we have seen lots of crypto projects and from uh everything that we're seeing it's like okay now the institutions are starting to come. But like you just said you are a financial institution. you've been here, >> yeah, >> eight years to your point. And so the institutions have kind of already been here and are now starting to grow as a part of our industry. What do you think separates a crypto project from a crypto institution? >> Yeah. So maybe even before answer that, I I'll I'll give you a little bit of like thinking that I had about this. You know, there's a lot of talk about institutions are finally here and

they're they're adopting the technology. I I I like to like create a a framework of thinking where actually I split the idea between what is called an institutional and an institutional allocator. So what so in in my view there's a very big difference between a financial institution which is for example a bank like a Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan or or Fidelity and then there are allocators which are the ones that are controlling the capital and allocating it into the asset class. uh their their the reason that they take decisions is different. I think we got to a point where it's very clear for the financial institutions, the banks that there is money to be made from providing services in this industry. And so this first generation of institutional adoption in in my view is more of you know what there is money to be made

helping this industry develop but not really the allocation actually and I think people confuse these two things but at least from where I'm sitting there is appetite from them to use the technology but that doesn't mean that they're just putting they're putting yet their capital >> into onchain vaults or into DeFi uh to to kind of like really get the full uh I would say 360 adoption of of like traditional finance into digital assets. Um and so so kind of like going into what's the different from a company like ours. Correct. So we we would definitely be in the category of a a service provider in a sense which sees a lot of value in the industry and and we do see a lot of value into the the power of distribution. So I mean it's just if you

look at like the capacity for distribution of the asset class is fantastic. you can take a product and you get global access to to users all over the world to to get access to to your products and and we we only focus on digital assets. So we have the capacity to approach it with the mindset of an institution with a regulatory framework of an institution but with really identifying where and how to take advantage of the power of distribution that the technology brings. >> Yeah. H how much assets do you guys have under management? >> Well, I mean to be honest I think that's that's undisclosed. We cannot we cannot disclose that live but we have many different uh businesses. Yeah. >> So we have a a market making business we we run a structural products desk. We also run an asset management okay

>> case and every every dollar of what you would call AUM is is very different from one to the other. Correct. So on the concept of an asset management business you would have a lot of like deposits where you have fiduciary duty. >> Right. >> But in the case of for example a market making business you would actually run a lot of debt. So even if I would have like I don't know a few hundred million dollars of depth if I would claim okay is that that is that aumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumumum well what matters is can you actually generate a delta of revenue between what you pay for your debt to what you generate which we do. >> Uh but it would be a little bit misleading to just say okay that's it. >> So do you guys have a current market view?

>> A current market view. >> Yeah. >> Uh long ball. >> Long ball. >> Long ball. >> That's it. >> That's it. Long ball. >> Yeah. >> Sounds like sounds like um micro strategy and sailor over here. volatility very >> you guys are very opinionated when it I'm you know just looking at what what you believe in it's very clear you say the future is tokenized >> absolutely >> you say all assets will be digital >> absolutely >> and you say your solutions kro solutions are designed to operate in every venue centralized and decentralized and so for a long time I think this was maybe you know what what gets to the heart of the difference between an institution as a project is whether or not you're you're partaking in this decentralization theater you're kind of doing this uh this you know what what do you want to

call it playing this game you know trying to pander to the ethos uh but in reality we need some sort of gateway we need some sort of bridge between the centralized world and the decentralized world and so I'm I'm curious you've been in the space eight years how has the space evolved it feels like now we're really getting into this is what matters we need to bridge these two worlds tradi these no longer exist it's just finance >> finance >> talk talk to us about what the journey has been like since you guys got started if you held the beliefs and I think you you do you seem like a very opinionated person. When you were saying the future is tokenized eight years ago, this was before Black Rockck and Larry Frink were saying the future was tokenized.

>> Yeah. >> Did people take you seriously or did you know did you have to convince some people? >> Well, back back then it was definitely a lot a lot more difficult, Eric, to to to raise capital to to build this story. uh I I like to to see ourselves as not we're not only a service provider for all of these industry to develop but what is very interesting is that at the same time that we help everybody to build their businesses we are also the power user of blockchain technology. So if you can look at it, it's actually very interesting because as a as a as an institution, what you would want that majority of institutions evolve to is that they are the users of all the stuff that we've been building. Correct? Like if you look at uh the layer ones and the layer 2s, custody solutions, money

market protocols, chain indexes, who is who is the core user that that actually really pushes the throughput of all of these systems is us. >> So at the same time that we help them, we're also the core user of the whole thing. And that's really where the learning the learnings are seen and and where we sit down uh I have a lot of friends that run venture uh and and funds and often when they are taking their decisions on investments they would call me up say hey look there's this protocol doing this thing >> tell me what you think with your hat of a user >> right what do you think how could this work you use it and what we've seen is that the technology has gone a long way like from back in the day the first times that we started to implement uh trading systems that would trade

against the smart contracts. This stuff was as clunk as it would get. Yeah. You know, like the first the very first few use cases of of any type of onchain order books or you know intentbased systems were were very clunky, right? Like you had uh back in the day COX was an order book. Today is an intent system but like with matchup but back back then was an order book for you to place an order and then cancel the order and reposition the order. the the lag on that would be 30 seconds. So imagine you place an order and just update your price. >> We're talking about 200 milliseconds these days. >> Correct. And and even that's too slow.

That's slow. So that's where we going to that's where we start entering into kind of like the whole HFD space on chain hopefully soon. But the technology really has, I would say, gotten to a point where where it's much better. And I would say for me, not only the trading systems, but also the underlying cost of the technology is more often than not something that really prevents institutions from adopting the technology. >> Uh, I like to make a very very simple kind of like reference on how to look at this. Imagine that you are a a bank. You have a team of 50 traders and a new blockchain comes and say, "Hey, you want to help us develop and and trade a little trade trade with us." Yeah. But and they developed this beautiful technology and they put a lot of work into it, but they never really looked at

custody or what it meant. >> And so then the bank looks, okay, we want to use this. How do we do it? We're not going to just give 50 ledgers, one to each trader for them to carry it around in their house or at the office. It just doesn't fly correct. And you know what happens if a trader decides that maybe you know they let's say want to part ways and leave the company and do something else >> take their ledger with them >> what the ledger with them and it's like what do you do you need to then recreate a ledger like kind of like transfer of the assets I mean it's it's a nightmare correct so much all of these custody institutional solutions are not only about the fact that they have like you know MPC and and all of these like sophisticated security systems but the fact that they have like super admin

powers for an institution to start saying hey we have this wallet All these users can actually access the wallet. I have my 15 traders. >> I'm going to segregate so that they can only use these white listers, my contractors are the clients that we work with. >> Kind of like you want to like make it as safe as even if the computer of the trading gets hacked, no money can be lost, >> right? >> And that definitely was not the case six years ago. And I think now it is the case. And so that's a fundamental piece that I think has helped a lot of the institutional uh service providers to enter and hopefully later on the instit institutional allocators. Yeah.

>> To also put money into it. >> Well, David, I think that the thing that people are are upset about right now are a bit kind of like uh confused about if you will is there's this massive tokenization institutional bull run happening stable coins. Everyone wants exposure to this kind of trade if you will. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but the way in which to get exposure right now to this entire idea is either >> build a company. >> It's either build a company, buy circle, uh stock, Coinbase stock, a couple other, you know, stocks, uh buy plasma, XPL, um and maybe just buy Ethereum or like there's like Sky, Athena, a couple others. Basically, >> few things, huh? Few things >> there's now there's quite a few, right? But like it still doesn't feel like there's a clean way to get exposure to this without being like either a VC or

being really early into some like uh you know uh some company that's going to go public. Like I'm just curious when people I'm sure people are asking you like they want exposure to this uh what what is Krock's uh exposure to this like trade basically like how are you guys uh going to maximize uh this kind of uh trend? We I mean we we've been involved in the in the in the whole story of of stable coins for a very long time. As a matter of fact, we're one of the largest I would say service providers in the the stable coin industry. uh we work with I would say every major stable coin issuer out out there uh since back in the day with with with circle and tether but now with all of the up and cominging uh you know stable coins that have come in in the recent years and uh the the

experience on how to help them to get adoption is very interesting because stable coin seems to be like a very simple product. >> Yeah. But the point is how do you get utility out of it for it to like go into like a spiral of adoption and you need to actually really find a way to get a lot of a lot of points of use. Yeah. Yeah. >> And so one of the interesting things is that if you look at stable coins the the US dollar stable coin is very successful. Every single other stable coin that is trying to do other currencies correct I would say exotics or like even even euro British pound and so on is really a struggle. And so we actually work with a lot of these companies that are trying to tokenize the Mexican peso, the the euro, the Filipino peso and so on. And the they

have not actually gotten yet to the the point of critical mass of liquidity where they have a a way to provide a ton of added value without relying on the banking system. So with for a majority of these products, what ends up happening is that for a end user to use a tokenized Mexican peso stable coin, there's still a market maker in the back that has accounts with the likes of Deutsche Bank and then we can actually access the FX market and kind of like broke that >> uh with the USD already scape velocity, right? You don't need to go to the to that market. It really acquired that that scape velocity. And so that that's been very interesting to see uh and we think is is really now the time that that's happening. So in the emerging markets especially the value proposition is is super strong. There's a little bit

of like an arbitrage there where you know some of these currencies might have a bunch of restrictions >> into them and then when you have a tokenized version you might be able to skip those restrictions. I don't know if you've seen something like that yourself, but >> well that that's why uh I I think what you're put you're posting positing here is is almost this uh this take that maybe uh regional stable coins are going to have more uh limitations to adoption. Uh this might be a reason for why governments might try to limit tokenization of their currencies to stop capital flight out of those denominations. But I think actually what what's happening here is that uh and we we had a a conversation about this a little earlier uh yesterday and we learned about the FX market where a lot

of these denominations still go through the US dollar. >> Uh and so uh you know there's examples out there but less liquid uh currencies, you know, they go from currency A into the dollar to go to currency B because there's not enough liquidity to go currency A to currency B. But what we can do is we can tokenize those and we can go direct because we have smart contracts, we have these kinds of innovations. And so those types of foreign exchange are possible onchain whereas maybe the entire US dollar foreign exchange market is not possible. Um and so the regional stable coins feels like this is something that is going to take place maybe not in the next like six months to a year but two, three, four years. Uh this will continue to accelerate. Uh, another thing that I'm I'm curious about as I'm uh

exploring Krock is uh the the token buyback models that you guys have helped to design. You have some token insights here. Uh, and so I'm curious how you anticipate that this trend will accelerate. >> We call this the revenue meta. Yeah. >> Because crypto projects for a long time. It was very kumbaya. You raised funds. You do some research. You raise you raise another round. Now you need a real business model to to sustain. And so some of the insights here uh that uh that come from key research, token holder revenue is accelerating. Uh buybacks and direct distributions had surged over 5x from just a year ago. You also say protocols are prioritizing payouts over rein over reinvestment. So you're actually paying out token holders rather than putting it back into the protocol. Uh I won't read all of these,

but uh the third one here is that uh many revenue share programs draw from treasuries. uh most most protocol revenue distributions are still funded by existing reserves rather than cash flow and so they feel the sense of urgency to share value with their token holders even if it doesn't come from them generating revenue. So I I'm curious maybe you could just shout out what are some of the more sustainable business models that you've seen on chain. What do you think are things that are going to continue to grow and and maybe just give, you know, uh a lesson of advice uh to projects that could be listening to to start to think more seriously about their business models?

>> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, I think that right now the the up layer of of D5 protocols with revenue is very very interesting. I mean, if you look at what what's happening, I think people will be surprised how profitable these companies are. actually >> they do generate a lot of cash flow and I I would say at the moment the you know the two like major success categories are the the money markets protocols uh and then you know exchange value protocols so everything that is exchanges and then money market protocols >> and you know if you look at you know companies like I would say Maple or you know a morpho >> these are these are tremendously healthy business >> you know they they have a very well-managed cost base and and very predictable sticky revenue. Uh they have a lot of network effects where liquidity

equals liquidity and therefore the predictability on the revenue is is very high compared to other type of businesses. So that's really really really very very interesting. So when we work with these companies we see that in you know the relationship the way that they manage their businesses in the in the the price action of the token correct people are starting to be aware of this. I really like the way that you described it actually because it's really true. I think they the something click. People are are looking at it fundamentally differently. >> They are they are behaving with a lot more fundamentals >> than before and and there is decoupling like every things that have fundamentals are are not behaving in tandem with everything else. >> Yeah.

>> Which is which is really I mean it's >> you see hyperlid like over the last two weeks. I mean obviously that's like the number one example but the whole market's down like 20%. >> Yeah. >> Hype's been at $38 for like two weeks straight. >> Yeah. No. Absolutely correct. Yeah. >> Well, one David, we have a gift for you in the same regard. >> This is our core brand ethos. >> This is our ethos. This is return to fundamentals. >> Fundamentals, man. You're an OG. >> Okay. Return to fundamentals. >> You know what fundamentals mean to the space? >> What does this mean to you, for key rock, for the entire space? Tell us what you know what this means. >> Return to fundamentals.

>> Yes. >> For you personally. >> Oh, I mean, I guess it means it means the the real success and adoption of the industry, correct? So I think this is this is a shift that can really make the uh you know innovation to to spark again. >> Yeah. >> And if you know I think for for a very long time the lack of fundamentals has uh disappointed a lot of people where things that were great didn't behave great. >> Uh I think that you know the whole RWA narrative >> really underperformed massively the last seven years. >> Yeah. >> And then something clicks. It did click.

It sort of clicks and uh but what is funny is that it it almost always doesn't come only from what people are building but it's just a matter of timing. Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. >> It's just a matter of time. You look at all this hardwa stuff and I was looking at the chart. I mean so you you're looking at at cur research. So cur research is is is very active. you know, we publish really in-depth analysis of of a bunch of things and you look at the RWA piece and >> and it's quite interesting that it was basically flat flat flat and all of a sudden boom going and TV goes up and you wonder what what happened. Did like the RWA issuers become better?

>> Now, did people care more about the RWA? Maybe, but I don't think so either. >> Yeah, >> I I think it was the money market protocols. >> Yeah, it was just that that it was Tether. No, you're saying that it's this adjacent category that does really really well and then it brings a lot of attention and necessity for this other category. >> Yeah. And then all of a sudden like it transforms an intrusion value into the fundamental. Correct. >> And so like you you tokenize on >> RWA, >> but is is it better than the non-tokenized version? Probably not. >> All of a sudden >> then um vault curation comes into the market and people can come and say, "Hey, I'm going to accept this RW as collateral to borrow." And then this thing goes like >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this is something that we've been trying we've

I've been thinking about a lot. We've been talking a lot about it's the idea we know stable coins are going to grow. What >> you know the growth of the stable coin category? >> Yeah. >> What is the the adjacent category that will benefit the most as a result? We know this thing is going to is going to grow. But to your point, money markets grew and then as a result RWA >> got a lot more attention. We know stable coins are going to grow. What is that next category that we think is going to benefit from the growth of stable coins? >> Yeah, >> that's the trade. >> That's the trade. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of people are speculating that, you know, payments is the most evident. Next one, uh, FX onchain FX as, you know, like really starting to have like like different stable coins against

each other as an as an onchain FX market. >> Um, I think what's also going to be very interesting is I would say like country risk management, which is which is the idea of forwards. So if you look at if you look at majority of of of markets outside of the US there's a very clear yield arbitrage like very very clear and if we can if stable coins can also become a tool for you to kind of like fix rates between different different you know >> FX currencies at scale uh in one click all of a sudden you can access yield from anywhere and you know just pay the delta between the dollar yield like if you look at for example the euro. I mean there's almost no yield in euro >> which is crazy correct because in fact there's so much yield in dollar >> right rates are so low

>> you could just like take that yield put it in euro but people don't do it because it's it's very hard to kind of like manage the FX risk of course >> nobody wants to take the risk like this year for example the euro at the beginning of the year was 1 to1 to the dollar now it's like 115 116 so if you would have as a European you put all your money into like some nice on strategy you got 15% yield Yeah, >> but then you lost 15% in FX, correct? >> And so I think that could be >> smart contract risk and all this other stuff. >> So all these stable coins come in and then all of a sudden >> what happens if every other single country in the world also gets access to yield and all of a sudden Europe has

access to yield, Mexico has access to yield. Boom. And I don't know what's going to be correct, but this it's interesting to think about the fact that when that happens, how does it affect society and and the economies of all these countries, which I think is what's coming next. >> Yeah. Well, David, we're creating a Spotify playlist. >> Okay. of all the of songs from our guests and we we'd like to have you add a song >> dev connect Spotify >> and we have another gift for you as well. [clears throat] Um but first what is your you know what's your artist of choice? What's your song of choice? >> What kind of music you've been listening to? >> I mean I I um company's based in Belgium. >> Okay. >> So I'll take Lost Frequencies. >> Los Frequencies.

>> Los Frequencies. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Favorite song by them? >> Well they're all great honestly. >> They're all good. >> They're all great. Fantastic. >> What do we got? >> We're going to go with Black Friday. That's great. >> That's a good one. >> There you go. >> All right. And then we got a gift from the Lambda team for you. >> This one's from Lambda Class. You know, we're in the Lambda Class office helped connect us. This is for you. This is FedE's grapes. >> This is their wine. >> Malach wine from [snorts] straight from FedE's Orchard. That one is >> from Fed's. >> I'm very tired today because yesterday he made me drink one of these. >> Yeah, that one's that one's for you for maybe tomorrow. This one is for the team back in Belgium.

>> Oh, that's great. Great. Drink that, man. >> Absolutely. >> And uh >> enjoy, man. Thank you for joining us. It's been a journey for us today. We're thanking God that we got you in. Yeah. >> And it was a pleasure to meet you in person. >> Absolutely. >> Thank you guys for coming on. >> Thank you. >> We'll see you next time. >> Go. All right. We'll do a quick break and we got our last guest. >> Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game.

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>> Cool. [clears throat] >> All right. Back. Last guest. >> Last guest. Mystery guest. >> Man, what a week it's been for you, huh? >> Yeah. What a week. Can we >> It's been incredible. >> Yeah. Has it? C >> Can we get your reaction? >> Well, hold on. Hold on. Let's set the stage here. We started with I saw this tweet when it was at like 500k views. Uh it's at 16 million views now. Uh Argentina, I'm in you friends, which is also just crazy. Friends, let's connect before DevCon. And then I saw the tweet before the whole like kind of like eyes was blowing up and what what what X kind of did was it it like put all the negative comments to the bottom eventually. And so most people saw it when it was just uh the positive kind of like, "Oh, don't listen to the haters."

But I saw it when it was like the first three comments that I saw were extremely racist and extremely negative. Uh I'm not going to repeat them, but it was really intense. So maybe just walk us through your side of the story, man, because it was super intense. Um and I don't think people even got to see the comments unless they really scrolled down. What happened? How did this make you feel? What's been your reaction to the initial post? >> So, initially I posted it actually a day later. I was like, uh, it delayed the post already. So, I posted it. Usually, when I post with a premium account, I usually get around 1,000 to 2,000 views. The likes I don't count, but views usually goes up to,000 2,000 on a good day. And I posted it, but usual usually

my most audience are in India. So, most people follows me on India. So due the time difference, it doesn't even gone up to like 500. I went to sleep, woke up the next day, the views are like around 2K. Okay, good. There's a few Spanish comments. I was intrigued. Okay, it reached more than India. There's a few Spanish comments. I I initially opened the Google Translate, copied, paste. First comment, it was totally rude. I was like, "Okay, it must be like one r comment." And then I went again. So there like only like four comments, just four comments. The next day after around like after like around 15 hours, just four uh like negative comments. I was like uh like anyone else I tried to like

report it. I report the each comments for each comments. X said like there's like no community violation on this. It's really funny because the the it includes all the names, slurs, lazy slurs and everything but the X community guidelines doesn't care about it. Uh so those four comments give way to other uh negative comments basically but initially there were like a lot of uh like a positive comments especially uh like a lot of people from working from like Ethereum Foundation and other people from Devcon team also commented it and these negative comments which I couldn't take them down like brought in the attention of other negative peoples into this post and it blew up the next

day uh Initially it was around like 100k nearly 100k around 80 90k I thought like it will die around 100k so that's the uh that's the only thought I had uh but but it didn't and the views went from like 100k to like 500k uh the the next day and I thought like it will die at this point. Yeah. So I thought like people will forget at this point and then move on as the other event started but it didn't. The next day I woke up it was 800k. That's when I retweeted that thank you so much for this 800k views. I never thought I would see that in my account. And once I posted that then I got like tremendous

support from the community when I when I stood up against it. people saw it and then they just like don't want to like support me. It's not just that they like lot of people's uh like been in my shoes either face racism either online or offline or uh like sim had like experienced similar situations for their friends or family members. So this combined sensation brought the support to that post and a lot of my close friends uh ex-colagues everyone started supporting on that post through comments and quote that kind of polarized the negative comments I received for my previous post as well as this post. This

quote post actually brought more attention to the previous post. >> Yeah, it did. That's what always happens. >> If you like quote tweet it, it just brings more traffic. >> Yeah. And it led to like 1 million uh views. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh immediately. And I thought like uh this will uh this is the end. So this is the end and uh it isn't. So I was initially a bit afraid because the initial sentiments were uh in a in a way that I felt like I should have I shouldn't have done this even though there's like no nothing I have done that uh like directly affected anyone or u it's directed towards anyone. It's just a basic template used by travelers and I noticed that there were like 10 plus post I noticed right at the time use the

same template. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Mhm. >> So this exact template but why my post got uh all this attention towards this like anon people and it turned out of course uh towards uh the like the negativity towards brownkinned people or blackkinned people. So that uh kind of brought in more attention to my post compared to anyone else. I've seen other post who also had like a really good followers but this post got around like 2k views. I was like thinking what is what is happening. So the uh content I posted is not the issue. The issue is something more deep into it. And u once uh this post got like million u impressions and lot of people started commenting it kind of reduced the

negative comments towards it >> as it started uh like polarizing the negativity in the end the post got like more positive comments than negative comments a lot of people started tweeting their own experience >> can I just stop you there for a sec why didn't you respond to any of the anonymous people and be like like shut the hell up you piece of [ __ ] >> like why didn't you just tell them to to like f off. >> Uh I initially I didn't want this post to get these impressions. >> So if we give more uh uh like power to them only through responding to them. >> Yeah. >> If we just like respond, they just get more happier and then they just start doing it more.

>> Right. >> So I just don't want to give that power to them. Um but it didn't stop them in any way. >> Yeah. >> So if if I respond what will happen is they will respond back. >> Yeah. I'm a like uh like I'm a public figure but they are like a just anon accounts >> right right >> they can create 10 more anon accounts and then they can just start attacking >> so that went on and there was like two things I was really concerned about one is uh it it shouldn't affect the brand I'm representing over here >> it shouldn't like affect uh intern like directly the brand I'm representing and then the second thing was I don't want my parents for my normie friends to get uh like affected the for the same.

>> Yeah. >> Or like even get worried about it and I thought like it never going to reach my parents or my normie friends. Every friends get it like web three is like this. So Twitter is usually uh is a [ __ ] storm as usual. So they get it but and my normie friends would be like concerned about this. I thought like it it never going to reach my norm. >> It did reach them right. >> Yes it did. >> Did it make press in India? >> Yeah. So there's a two uh news press which is NDTV and times of India. Those are like uh equivalent of New York Times in US >> and this post made that.

>> Yeah. >> What what was the Indian the the reaction to it in India from these news outlets. >> Yeah. So actually this is really positive. I was worried about it. I don't want to bring positiv bring negative attention towards Argentina just because of these anon comments because people are really nice. people are incredibly friendly and welcoming just because of a few anons. Uh I don't want to bring those negative attention but I'm really glad none of the like news media used it as a clickbait. That's what I was really worried about it. >> I mean it's a really uh clickbaitable I mean race baitable clickbaitable content >> like you you were worried that the Indian press would have made it like anti- Argentina.

>> Exactly. So there's a opening for that. I can totally see it. I'm glad none of them did it. What what happened is because uh uh the the code tweet that got viral and once that got viral, a lot of people lot of local Argentinians start showing their support IRL as well as online. The Argentinian builders that's on Twitter as well. And then local Argentinian builders I've seen in events and conference they just started coming up to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. I also tweeted that as well and the news news outlet only saw that. That's what I'm really glad about. Yeah. >> And they uh framed they framed the narrative in such a way that this uh Indian tourist got the system on online but local Argentinians showing their support.

>> Yeah. So talk us through what what where like what what was going on at 5 million impressions and then 10 million impressions and then 15 million like what was the change in like cuz you went from like coming to Dev Connect to like on stage and like a local legend in like 5 mil 10 mil like what happened? >> So as I mentioned I never thought it's going to like reach more than 100k. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I thought it's even going to reach 5K and then suddenly the negativity brought it up to 100K and it brought it up to even like 1 million. Then that around 800K I made the quit beat and it suddenly brought it to 3 million. I did not even see like 2 million or 1.5 million. Suddenly just pushed it to 3 million and 5 million. So the only thing I I got is like the

support I just keep getting from the community. the most ecosystem leads uh even um like people from Ethereum Foundation, people from Dev Connect >> de connect core team they all started showing their support that that means a lot so uh I was really afraid about this it might like uh offend the brand because uh initially I was just like alone like there's like no external support I received in the earlier stage of this post that's why like I was really afraid like how it is being projected or how it is perceived from the other whether they are also thinking like this shouldn't be done or I offended anyone or I offended the local communities. So that's what I was uh like afraid in the early when I start receiving support now

I know like this is all just like online [ __ ] and then people started sharing their personal experiences as well which means a lot >> and it takes a lot to like share a stranger about your really personal experiences that is also like really negative you don't want to talk about it. Yeah. >> And so that means a lot and people >> would you ever come back to Argentina? >> Me? >> Yeah. >> For sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Would you ever post a photo like that again? >> For sure. Yeah. And I don't want to like make it uh look like I'm trying to like gain uh like popularity just from this or like again trying to rage bait anyone because it was never meant to rage bait anyone.

>> Yeah. So that's what I'm really uh I'm I'm just like want to make sure it doesn't like look in that way. >> So usually when you when creators have these viral moments, they actually take them and like end up like like this is a really weird example, but the Haktua girl had that like Hakua moment and then she turned it into like this whole like Hakua podcast which ended up turning into like a hawkwah memecoin and then like I think she got in trouble for that. >> I think it's pronounced Hakua. >> Hakua. Um whatever. What is it? Like some [ __ ] Um, but anyway, yo, so like do you have plans to like take this because like bro, you could probably sell merch with that tweet on it and [ __ ] would pop or like like how would you how are you thinking at all about like taking this moment and turning it

into a win for yourself or like is that not really on your mind? >> I did not have uh any plans towards it. >> How to launch a memecoin? I think I think Annie's >> No, but like you you know what I mean? Like uh you go viral on some Tik Tok and all of a sudden like boom all your next videos are hitting and then like boom all of a sudden you get brand deal and then boom you're like a creator now. >> Exactly. >> One post. >> Exactly. That's exactly >> the beauty of like the viral. >> That's what happened to Yeah. viral thing like things that have gone viral. How one of them >> like you have a unique opportunity right now to like take this moment and like turn it into like a consistent uh moment for your personal brand. Yeah.

>> Um, like, bro, like you I mean, I don't know what the exact idea would be, but like you could turn this into like a satire account in some ways or like you could turn this into like you could you could create like an anti-racism movement around this and like get like a lot of support. Like there's so many things you could do. I'm just curious like if if you're just kind of thinking about any of these things. >> No, I did not have any time to think about this because I'm here for a business. I'm here for presenting my company. So it's been a like a really tight schedule for like last few days and there's people also like asking about this but I did not had any time to like think what I'm going to do after dev connect.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so if I think about it it's probably I would I would still post content but definitely not a meme coin. I'm definitely not launching a meme coin. Somebody did and I I want to like tell you guys to this through this video don't buy that coin. Wait, somebody launched a shitcoin for you? >> Yeah. >> No [ __ ] way, dude. [laughter] >> Yo, let's pull this up. >> And we This >> Yo, can we get this on the screen, please? >> Theu memecoin. Can Can we get it on the screen? What is it? >> No, no, that's that's like another coin.

I don't want to say the name of I don't want to give the ticker of it. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Don't show the fake memecoin. >> So, somebody created a memecoin. >> Yeah. So don't there's an I I'm not affiliated with any meme coins. So don't buy it and don't lose your money. >> What what is um what is your what is medicine? I have two questions but first what is medicine? I I see that they you know they they were obviously supporting you. What has been their reaction? uh you know you you you were a little bit concerned that you know they would think that this would have you know uh consequences but they ended up supporting you a lot of the Ethereum community ended up supporting you um what is medicine's reaction been to it >> so initially they were they were like uh they were like uh we uh I mean they sent

me right so I'm representing medicia they were also like uh it's this Argentina does have a history of racism >> so Uh and then like they also know like people are really friendly in IRL so just like take care of it and it's it's like just online and they also understand what happens whenever like some tweet go viral. >> Yeah. >> So they are like really chill about it and um it it it all happened through weekend. >> So a lot of our team mates are like not able to like get through it and then suddenly in Monday or like whenever they got to check the like Twitter it was like viral. It's crazy already. Yeah, >> dude. We have some gifts for you, man. Um, we got a shirt. We got some wine.

Uh, thanks for joining us. Uh, this is a return of fundamentals shirt, man. Uh, this will look great on you on your next viral post. Uh, truly, I think that will [ __ ] fly. >> He doesn't he doesn't drink, so we're not, but we are curious. We are building a Dev Connect playlist on Spotify. We are. >> And so, we, you know, we're curious what what kind of music have you been listening to? What did you listen to on your flight over? Could you recommend us? >> Did you listen to anything that was like I'm gonna I'm gonna kill the world after this? Like were you like fired up or no? >> If if I want some motivating music, of course Eminem >> Eminem like yourself in the music, the movement. >> Yes, sir. Lose yourself, man. I can get that one. >> Never let it go. That's a banger.

>> Got to love that one, man. Got to love that one. >> Very cool. >> I'm going to add that to our Dev Connect playlist. Um and we're going to get that in there, man. Thank you for your time, T bro. It's pleasure. What is uh what is your ex payout looking like this uh this month? >> Uh I think uh uh I asked few people they said like with respect to the like the impression I got it could be it could be around $1,000 the seed but >> you're going to buy some coins with that. >> It's a pretty good airdrop. >> Um I have no plans about it but I'm not like expecting more on that. But I'm really glad about the impressions >> but it's it's all uh about like how I take it forward rather than just like relying on that.

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Ye is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever see. Cool. >> All righty, guys. Day two is come to a close. What a freaking run. Thank you for being here. Uh we're just going to keep returning to fundamentals. I mean, we have no other choice. So, >> we're actually going to get more fundamental than we've ever been. And so, we're relearning. We're embracing what payments, stable coins, super cycle, institutional, banking, the unbanked, it's really happening. We're really doing it. And uh we're doing it ever ever so more than we ever thought we could.

>> Guys, thank you so much. Rollup TV is out. [music]