Rollup TV: December 3rd, 2025

Transcript

[music] [music] I'm about [music] [music] the [music] >> [music] >> I'm about the [music] >> [music]

[music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. [music] It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. [music] You said it. Finally said it. It is boys. I'm bullish. We're [music] boys. [music] [music] I'm [music] the >> [music]

[music] >> How about [music] the mother? I'm the mother. [music] [music] [music] Hero [music]

[music] [music] [music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys. [applause] >> Dude, that is >> cash out before you crash out, brother.

>> Dude, that to the moon every time gets me going. Wow. >> I think I was I think I was sober when I said that. >> Welcome back, Rollup TV. Wednesday, December 3rd. Uh, counting down the days of Christmas here on on the roll, boys and girls. I don't know what Santa's getting you, but I'm looking for some new uh uh Lululemon pants. Maybe some Vari shirts. >> Sound like a 16-year-old girl. >> Brother, you don't know. >> I want Santa to bring me some Lululemon yoga pants. [laughter] Maybe Johnny will ask me to homecoming this year.

>> You don't know about the comfort levels of Lulu. Eth is ripping Faka Day. Happy Fusaka day to all who celebrate. You guys will appreciate comfort once you've made it, Rob. But until then, I don't expect you to get it. You know, keep wearing those manly. Keep living in your patriarchal society. All right. But I I'll just I'll enjoy my Lulu and my Vari. The most comfortable pants and shorts I've ever worn in my life. And you're not going to be able to do anything about it. Don't know what to tell you, bud. >> Guys, uh we've got a fun show. We're going to be talking to a project who uh is a blockchain but not a blockchain at the same time. We're building beyond blockchain. This happened in the bull run of 2017. It also happened in 2021.

We started thinking about blockchains as hyperledgers. And remember the whole what was IOTA? Remember IOTA? >> DAG. Is that >> a DAG? A dynamic asyclic graph. >> No, it was like a decentralized. No, is a dynamic asylic graph. >> Is that what it means? It's >> like a 3D blockchain. We're not talking about linear 2D blockchains anymore. >> No, we're not. All right. So, yeah, guys, we have one guest today. >> Quick quick fun guest with uh Grigor and then we've got tons of videos and reactions and vibes and news to cover.

So, um yeah, >> did a silic >> is it's right. It's it's a what you said is right, right? >> Uh it's a Yeah, I got the D wrong. It's a directed asylic graph. Um >> got it. >> We're going to find out. Pi squared uh is our first guest. These guys are uh are really smart. I'm curious. I uh I want to know because we've had lots of conversations about finance. Every green day we talk about finance. Every red day we talk about tech. >> So many things to cover today.

>> We're in the middle of We're in the middle of it all. Yeah, there's so many things to cover today. So, let's get uh let's get uh Grigor up and uh let's get started. Gregor, welcome to the show, man. >> Thank you for having me. Great show. >> Thank you so much. >> Hell yeah, brother. >> Thank you for being here. >> Nice, man. >> Yeah, it's a great hat and uh it's a great day for you to for you to join us. >> Thank you for inviting me. >> Absolutely. >> Where you calling in from, man? >> Chicago. >> Chicago. Nice.

>> Chicago. Chicago is very underrated city. Lou Malnati's deep dish pizza. Great things in Chicago. >> Beautiful, beautiful city. We love you. >> Beautiful. Well, uh, Pi Squared is, uh, not only a very interesting name. I have a math degree. It's somewhere back there. I don't use it very often, but uh, I do really enjoy the idea behind Pi Squared. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about because we have a lot of blockchain projects on this show. uh you know we talk a lot about about stable coins and the like but uh Pi squared isn't exactly a blockchain.

Maybe you could explain a little bit more. >> Okay, let me start by telling you and everybody else that more than 90% of all the transactions that happen on blockchains today, all blockchains, they do not need a total order. They do not need a blockchain in fact, but yet all of them they pay the price of a total order. So we try to optimize the common case. So how can we make those 90% plus of the transactions super fast and only those that really require a total order to worry about implementing a total?

>> And when you say total order, you mean like they go in sequence like they're ordered. >> Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Let's go back to Bitcoin. So Nakamoto proposed the idea of a chain which is a total order on all the transactions in order to avoid double spending. Right. Because if you totally order everything then you cannot double spend because it's either one or the other transaction going first. >> And everybody took that as an axiom. >> So it must be a chain. We want smart contracts. We want programming languages. So we had Ethereum and more blockchains and now all the way to mega and all of them implement or optimize the same main idea that we need a total order to avoid double spending.

>> Okay. So that is the axiom of web 3. This is what we are challenged with pi square. >> Okay. >> Okay. So, so we've had uh uh people from pod network on before before talking about how uh uh basically the um like ordering doesn't really matter in blockchain if you can do things in a unique fashion. Um and we kind of got to this this concept that uh you know like in in math uh there's like the I think it's called like the uh it's like the summative property or or there's a property that's like 2 + 2 + 1 equals 5.

Doesn't matter if it's 2 + 1 plus 2 or 1 plus 2 plus two. >> But like in blockchain ordering yeah what's it called? >> Exactly. >> Okay. But like when it comes to financial transactions, if I put my transaction before you and it's an important transaction then it does matter because the price of the asset can change me different things change and so you know they had a very unique way of uh of actually solving this problem. Um why why do you guys take a similar view like like why does this transaction ordering really not matter?

Because okay so you you picked a very interesting example where the transaction order really matters in applications like unis swap or trading platforms. Yes. Because every single trade establishes the price of the asset. So then it's important. Okay. But the majority of other transactions like transfers of assets, if I send you a token and you send a token to Robbie um and different tokens, millions of people sending tokens to each other, digital assets to each other, those do not need a because nothing changes there. So those are independent. Okay. And those are the vast majority of transactions.

And our philosophy is the following on facet parallelism and you mentioned that 5 plus 2 plus 2 plus 1 that's a commutativity operation actually there is a notion of commutativity also in our protocol exactly they're saying that transactions can be commuted right so if you have that property which applies to 90% plus of the transactions then you can settle verifiably decentralized everything all the good properties at the speed of the internet and if there are applications where you need a total order like unis swap then those applications should be in charge of their total order. You see one way to get a total order in in each application. Imagine you have thousands of applications. One way to assure total

order in each application is to have a global total order on the entire universe. Of course then you will have a total order in each application but the cost is huge. The price is too high. So our approach is those applications that require a total order like unis swap maybe a but you see voting auctions those don't require a total order but those applications which require a total order they should implement their own total order they should become a sequencer essentially on the transactions that are being sent to them >> right so we could think about ethereum as this rollup settlement network and yeah maybe it's true like if unis swap and uni chain require total order uni chain can total order its uni chain transactions But when they all go to Ethereum,

>> it can be unis swap plus mega plus starknet or it can be starknet plus uni, you know, they can go different orders then when they ultimately settle to Ethereum. >> Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Same like we do here, the three of us here, each of us have our own thoughts in order, you know, but you don't stop thinking because I think now that would be stupid, right? We all think in parallel, but then we settle things like the words that we say, right? We settle things in a certain order in the end. Yeah, very true. Um, so how how can this, you know, when pi squared was is building this and and you know thinking a little bit more about how you're going to implement this because I think it makes a lot of sense in theory, right? But what is the go to market strategy because a lot of uh the

applications are already existing in this way. A lot of blockchains already exist in their sequential ordering process. How are you thinking about integrating pi squared and this technology with some of the existing stack? Yes. So first of all we already implemented it. Uh we have um the network you know which can be played with. If you go to fast set.xyz you can you can play with the network. >> Nice. >> Um and we also have an application called omniset that is essentially a set of smart contracts on major L1 and L2s which allow you to see on facet everything going on on these L1s and L2s. Let's take Ethereum as an example.

If you go to Ethereum verification.fet Facet.xyz you can see everything happening on Ethereum mirrored on the facet network >> because we take every single block on Ethereum and we reprove it. We verify it and settle it on facet. So we know every single transaction happening on Ethereum and this allows you to get bridging messaging for free as a as an instance of a marginal principle which is that a verifiable settlement of any claim on our network. So we talked about payments but actually we generalized this concept of payments to claims where claims are basically anything that comes with a proof that is verifiable is a claim

which can now be settled on the network in par with everything else. And for example what unis swap does or what uni chain does all those become claims that are settled on our network and that means that all the applications on the network would see what happens in all these other uh chains at the same time because having the fastest possible payment system or you know settlement verifiable settlement network without liquidity would be useless. So we started directly with integrating with all the different chains. Notably with mega east for example we have a partnership with mega east where everything happening on mega at that amazing speed of 10 milliseconds per block is is is replicated and verified and reproved on the facet network. It takes us half a second instead of 10

millconds but we can do all those in parallel. So everything happening on mega is visible on facet. So we have integration with mega east. So you get a network effect now because all the different chains L1's and L2 that are integrated can also now communicate with each other. So you get like layer zero plus wormhole >> plus together. >> And what is the proof uh the gener the proof verification generation is it ZK or is it some other verification service? >> Actually very interesting that you asked this question because pi squared comes from proof of proof. Ah yes. >> Um our our oursis is that everything that is true should have a mathematical proof and then once you have a mathematical proof you can generate a cryptographic proof a zero knowledge proof by checking the

mathematical proof with a circuit specialized for mathematics. Okay. So we have a universal approach to verifiable computing. So we can take any computation in any programming language which has a formal semantics. formal semantics allows you to get mathematical proofs from program executions and get the ZK proof for it. Okay. So we have uh but currently we support EVM and we also support a few other languages for to have formal semantics. We also get because of the architecture this universality in terms of programming languages. Our philosophy is that blockchain should not have a hardwired language. Same like a computer when you buy a computer you don't buy a Python computer or Java computer. You buy a computer and then you install whatever languages you want on it. That's how the web three infra should be as well in our

view and that's how fast it is. You can plug and play different languages by plugging and playing or settling their formal semantics and now you get correctness and proofs u automatically. >> Yeah, who's using this right now? Are you guys live like is there developers using this? Is there like users like who's using this? >> We are we are in a devet uh stage. We want to launch our test net by the end of the year and um and planned our main net launch in Q2 next year. >> Got it. >> So we are very early. So currently we have enthusiasts um we have some games because the network is so fast that you can imagine shooting games where every single action in the game becomes a transaction that is being sent finalized and settled in

real time. You cannot shoot fast enough you know for transactions to be settled. That's how fast it is. And we have several people implementing and playing with games like that. Um and Omniset also which allows you to connect right to different chains also generate transactions the mega in. So we have transactions from different from different uh applications. Uh but currently because it's devet right we don't have real money into the into the game yet. >> Got it. >> So you know at a high level I think people might be confused. They might think, oh, this is like a settlement network. You aggregate proofs. Different rollups can settle their proofs >> uh to pi squared. Pi squared is this

proof of proof settlement network where everyone can settle. >> And people might think that or make this assumption that it would make you competitive to Ethereum because they're either going to settle their proofs on Ethereum or they're going to settle their proofs on pi squared. Are you is that true? Where is this misconception? Where where's the uh I I feel like I'm maybe missing something because you can maybe do Ethereum and Pi squared. What is Are you competitive to Ethereum? >> Um yes and no. Uh yes, you can settle on Ethereum or settle on Facet. Um and in that from that perspective, we are competitors. But on the other hand, as I told you, we bring everything that happens on Ethereum, we mirror on Facet.

um because we are very you know big believers in Ethereum. We've been with Ethereum for a long time. We got many guns from Ethereum and we want Ethereum integration in everything. It's just that Ethereum you know cannot sustain uh very high TPS for transactions even if they will get 10,000 maybe 20,000 TPS. Um but that's too little for the future that is already here right with all all these AI agents they need microp payments for microservices uh they need millions of TPS okay so you can think of our network as you know the fast path for certain activities in web 3 and you can then defer to Ethereum or

other um blockchains for more complex operations like u like we discussed right we need sequencing where where you the interactions between applications and flash loans and all these little not little but more trickier um aspects of computation >> but as I said the 90% plus of operations are just digital asset transfers or voting or um auctions which are inherently parallel right so all applications where you can permute operations like we vote if we vote >> all it matters is that each of us vote before the deadline but whether you vote before me or I vote before you is completely irrelevant we just implement a counter and it doesn't matter in which order we implement the counter in

different validators we get the same number in the end 2 plus 2 plus 1 equals 5 doesn't matter how you do the the sum um so that's our oursis that there are lots of operations in web3 that can be done super fast at the speed of the internet not no cap on the TPS and that's how those should be and wherever we in the total order then we can use a blockchain >> and with omniset we are connected through all the blockchain so we can the liquidity and flow. We have a concept which we call TVU >> total value unlocked. We don't call it TVL because once you connect a new chain or we unlock the value of that as well to the network.

>> Um Gregor um h how do you guys plan to make money? >> Well, [laughter] two different ways. So first um we'll have the token on the network, the set token that uh will be used for the fees. >> Yeah. And we have validators on the network that you know you need to stake in them. And then we have reststaking as well in verifiers. I told you about verifiers of proofs. Those are special services uh on the network. And we are going to run those. For example, right now we run the KVM which is the EVM uh verifiers for for for uh for mega and other other chains. So we are going to make money token. Uh we are going to have our own validators. A whole army of

validators will be ours. But then also we want to decentralize as much as possible to the community and we'll have verifiers that verify different kinds of proofs for different kinds of applications. Actually the network is completely open-ended. If you look at our architecture is a nice beautiful architecture where the left side of the architecture says that any application can bring any type of claims which can be proved and verified. You see, so that opens a basically a market for supply and demand market for verifiers. If you are an EVM verifier, you can offer your services. Okay? If you are a Java verifier, you can offer your services. Rust risk five verifier, offer your services and then be paid by

the applications. And we already have a thousand nodes uh that plan to to run KVM. So EVM verifiers and we do it for Ethereum, we do it for optimism, we do it for Mega. Ethereum doesn't need to pay but others will uh will pay for that. So we make money from verification services and we make money from validation services and the token itself. >> Yeah. Um I'm curious what you think about Ethereum's direction as they're bringing this snarkification. you know, they're trying to make the Ethereum L1 more of a proof verification network by implementing these different op codes and allowing people to more easily verify ZK proofs at the L1 level. Um,

you know, maybe that would enshrine one of these ZKVMs. I'm curious as as you know, that tend that that happens. Uh, what is the relationship between proof verification networks, right? like Ethereum. How do you think this is going to affect uh e Ethereum in in you know the coming months and years? >> I think definitely that will be very positive for Ethereum. uh it will increase the the TPS, reduce the the gas um um but again let's not forget that it's still a total order, still a blockchain and you cannot, you know, go above a certain um um cap on the TPS. I think Ethereum with ZK

proofs will reach probably 10,000 or 15,000 TPS which um in my view is too little for uh it's it's okay for applications like that need they require a total order but for applications that like payments that do not require a total order uh it it will be too much um but yeah so I think I think that that will make Ethereum better and also it will reduce the need for many layer tools to be honest. Um but in the end again you cannot go with ZK or not you cannot go above above a certain threshold. Think think of the following metaphor. Suppose that you have a

football field right and you have all the players at one end and they have to run as fast as they can to the other side right if you let them run they will run like in I don't know 15 seconds plus minus one one second because some of them will be slower than others. But now imagine that you put a a door in the middle of the terrain of the field and only one person of the time can go through that door, >> right? >> And you ask them all to run through that door. That's what blockchains do. Okay? No matter how good they are, no matter how trained they are, no matter how we try to sequence them, [laughter] there will still be congestion at the door. Okay? So why put the congestion when you don't need it? Right? So that's our philosophy.

Do you think at any point Ethereum might recognize that you know a lot of the transactions especially now we're returning to fundamentals payments are becoming more and more prevalent on chain. Do you think Ethereum will ever remove this bottleneck and and remove the total ordering from its architecture? So that's actually one of the biggest uh you know resistance let's say um uh you know uh that that we encountered when we talk to blockchain people because the blockchain thesis is so much ingrained right in uh in their philosophy that um it it sounds almost rebellious right to say that we don't in

a blockchain. Yeah, >> there is there is this myth or misconception that web three and crypto they are equal to blockchain. How else can you have crypto and web without blockchain? Right? So it's very hard to fight against against this. So each time we talk to people even very very very strong people actually Justin Drake he's um you know an angel in our company and a very good friend and we often you know discuss um and not necessarily agree right on what's the best way to to prove and settle [clears throat] >> things um >> and you know many ideas are good and work and I think we are still so early that we try different things um >> but I think at this point the facet protocol proved initially theoretically

and now also practically because we already reached 250,000 transactions per second without even optimizing much prove that um it is worth considering um separating payments from the rest. You see because I'm in this field because I was fascinated by Bitcoin and the Bitcoin paper as a scientist. I read the paper several times and I that changed my life. I said this is the future of money. But now that I look back at it, I think it failed us as a payment system. >> Really, >> it failed us as a payment system.

>> Now we we we twisted the story. Now we call it a store of value, right? To to make it positive, but as a payment system, it it failed us, right? Because you cannot use it as a payment system with 20 transactions per second. You know that you cannot have a you know an money rails for the digital uh future, right? and web 3 and with OI agents and so on. And then blockchains, other blockchains after took the blockchain philosophy as an axium. >> They didn't challenge it. They said, "Oh, that's great. We need a blockchain as a total order. Let's add programming languages. Let's at a different consensus, but it's still fundamentally the same the same paradigm. We have a total order. Until five years ago when

the first scientific papers were published, not by me, I cannot take credit for that. a group in Switzerland and then a group from Microsoft, they show that wait a minute, we do not need a total order for payments. Okay? And I think even if we just consider this payments, right? And we want to have payments for web three for humans and AI agents unckempt, right? So to bring industry, to bring major players, right? To adapt to embrace web 3, we need to give them unlimited TPS. We cannot give them 20,000 TPS.

Visa, Mastercard have more than that, right? So, PayPal and so on, right? We need millions of TPS. We need a paradigm shift. If web 3 and crypto are here to stay, then we need a paradigm shift in the know how we implement this. >> And so, these like upcoming payments chains like uh Tempo and Plasma and these types are you not excited by these either? >> No, not at all. >> Not at all. Just copy paste L1. >> Yeah. still blockchains and you don't need a blockchain for payments. >> No, >> I mean just look at the science in the last five years. People don't read especially in web three.

>> Yeah. I I've been in conferences. I gave talks to hundreds of people in front of me. I ask how many people here heard of this you know the consensus number of a cryptocurrency paper. >> Yeah. >> Or or the the fast pay paper and one person out of 200. >> Really? >> That's ridiculous. People don't read. >> So you don't think that we need blockchains for payments at all? >> No. Nope. Not for payments >> at all? at all. No. >> Yeah. So, so why are we spending so much time building blockchains for payments? >> What is that? >> Why do we spend so much time building blockchains for payments? >> Because we don't read the science.

>> Okay. >> That's why the science is here. Even prototypes are here. >> Yeah. >> And they work. Just go and play with facet. See it with your own eyes. It's, you know, it's super fast. And just to be clear, you do think that blockchains are important for applications that require total ordering, but that's not most transactions. >> Exactly. Yes. >> So if we move beyond uh you know, let's say that payments in this category moves beyond blockchains, what becomes the role of existing chains, existing L1's, L2s in your in your vision?

Um so again all the applications that require a total order and flash loans those may want to stay on blockchains. >> Um also through omniset as I said we are connected to all of them so the liquidity is available also here. >> Yeah >> also I think there will be some inertia many stable coin issuers will prefer to issue on maybe you know ethereum initially or on chains that they are familiar with not on facet directly they say this is crazy new thing. uh but through that we can we can bring all those so I would say they will I think I think what will happen is there will be an evolution like in everything else in science right so science never never sleeps right things evolve and I think

blockchains will also evolve they are evolving already now we have parallelism in blockchains we didn't have that before in monad in mega in sui they have a lot of parallelism but as optimizations not as a basic principle we took it as the basic principle everything is paralle period. If you need sequentiality, implement it. Why they say is that everything is sequential and we optimize wherever we see that things can be done in parallel. Okay? So we don't do that. We say everything is parallel by default. Um and blockchains can be now rearchitected once a network like facet is in place because you can now settle. We do that what we do is mega.

>> Yeah, >> I told you that we can verify everything happening on mega on our network. Now, Mega can be rearchitected based on that. We I'm discussing with Elong. Elong the CEO of of of Mega. He was my student for many years. Uh so we were together many many years. So we are basically once you verify every single block meaning that you prove it you can now declare instant finality on Mega E. That's one thing. Second thing as you get an optimistic rollup also with instant finality which is what you get with ZK rollups also another important thing is that you do not need a fast or a network of fast computers anymore

in a layer two or even layer one. All you need is one computer and maybe two or three for fall tolerance but not for decentralization to generate the computational claim that I go from this state to this state with this code right very fast and then that is being sent for verification to the faster network and that happens completely in parallel and independently which are much simpler actually in terms of message messages being sent protocol. Okay. And now once those validate now they can finalize it. Okay, which is like half a second later.

>> Yeah. >> So you see you can implement a blockchain now on one computer because a blockchain becomes a sequencer, a little dictator that says this is the next block. Okay, trust me. And by the way, this is another interesting phenomenon uh that there is a correspondence between random numbers and sequences. So if you have a random number, you can generate a sequence. Okay. So you can reduce sequencing to just a VRF a verifiable random function. >> Yeah. >> And that and that's it. Right. So you can have a VRF. So you can prove to everybody that the sequence was generated uh fairly and then you can do the verification uh on the faster network. So it's in the

modular blockchain spirit in some sense but modularize it even further, right? Or we separate the execution from the verification as well. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah, I I mean I'm I'm kind of I'm getting curious as to uh the the like decision makers of what is accurate or what is right, right? Like in in a consensus based mechanism in terms of blockchains, you've got these validators, they decide on you know the correctness of certain blocks u of certain transactions etc. I in in pi squared how does the correctness and the integrity of the network remain uh you know intact I if there's not this kind

of global consensus layer >> very good very good question we still have consensus but it's called weak consensus >> okay so blockchains are based on this principle called strong consistency meaning that at any given moment all the validators have exactly the same state if you freeze the universe and look into their state they have the same state strong eventual consistency says is that you may have different states temporarily but when all the transactions are cleared everybody will have the same state strong eventual consistency. Okay. So that gives you a weak consistency or weak consensus protocol in the sense that they will still have the same states for everybody eventually. Okay. And what guarantees that property is this commutativity that I that I mentioned between transactions.

Payments are commutative. Your payment my payment they are commutative. There is still a very interesting question that actually many people ask and they don't really get it and I will try to explain you is how to avoid double spending without a total global order. Okay. And here it is in one sentence. You have to get quorum for every single claim that you make. For every single transaction you make you still have to get corum but that corum will happen independently of other claims and in parallel with them. Right? So if you try to double spend so I mean two transactions with the same sequence number. Okay some validators will receive one transaction first and then the other second others will receive the second first and the other um second.

Okay but you need quorum in order to settle and you cannot get quum which means 2/3 plus one on two conflicting transactions because they because some of them will only consider one the other only consider the other one and reject the other one. So you cannot get coral on both. In other words, philosophically, blockchains enforce the total order for you and they will pick one of the two transactions first and the other will be rejected. While in facet, you have to prove that you didn't double spend. It's not a blockchain, it's not a network's job to pick one for you. You should not cheat. If you cheat, you risk to lock yourself because you cannot get

corum onto transactions and you cannot proceed in a validator unless you give corum on the transaction. >> And there are ways to unlock you in case this happens by mistake. But essentially, you shouldn't double spend. If you do, you you may be punished and you need to pay more to unlock yourself. >> And is that just the catch actually? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> Yeah, I was saying that this is the catch, right? because you cannot have a free lunch, right? So, what's the catch? The catch is that you are responsible for playing the game correctly. If you don't, then you pay more, right? Or locked. So, if you have little money in your account, you prefer to let it locked and move to another account. But if you have a lot of money in the

account, then you may want to pay. And why you pay? Because now you you ask the validators to talk to each other. Talking to each other is expensive, right? That's what blockchains do, right? then you have to do a blockchain operation for you to unlock you. Okay, that's expensive. So don't do it. That's the thing. So don't double spend because we can catch you. >> Okay, so so the the the overemphasis on consensus in traditional networks is almost like a waste of resources. the redundancy property of having to achieve this uh consensus amongst this distributed set of nodes can be stripped down into like a more uh kind of like reduced form that allows for basically

higher higher throughput better uh network design. Unlimited unlimited throughput. >> Throughput internet. Exactly. >> Unlimited throughput. All right. >> Yes. No cap on the throughput. >> No cap. >> No cap. >> 250,000 but that's just the beginning, right? So there's no cap. >> Beautiful. >> The limit there are limitations, right? Like Z you need to zk prove all the transactions and right now we are uh limited by the performance of ZK proofs. >> No no no no no. So you need to have a proof for each transaction for payment.

your signature is the proof. Okay. For more complex computations, you need a kind of a proof. For Mega E, we use a proof based on formal semantics. That's a mathematical proof. And you can generate mathematical proofs faster than ZK proofs. >> Mhm. >> Okay. And actually, they're even more correct. But you can also do ZK proofs. So you have options what kind of what counts as a proof for your particular application. >> But I totally agree with you that ZK technology is still, you know, in the early days. Um but as it improves we'll see more and more claims coming with proofs which are ZK we are open-ended with respect to what counts as a proof of a claim.

>> I see. >> As far as the application considers that proof valid and is verified by the verifiers which by the way can be slashed if they lie. So we also have like a slashing and we have staking and restaking in our in our network because you can stake in validator restaking verifiers like in layer. Um so as far as the claim comes with a proof that is verifiable then the claim will get a signature. Think of it like the signature of God meaning that this is true. Don't worry about it.

>> Okay. >> Right. And now you just have to settle it and settlement happens in parallel at the speed of the internet. It's a separation of concerns. >> Understood. So um Gregor you mentioned that test net is coming by the end of the year. What does the next couple months look like for the PI squared team? You know, what does your road to mainet look like here? >> So, right now we want to add lots of nodes, lots of validators nodes. We have only four validator nodes to prove the concept. Uh but we are going to add more validator nodes. We want to add EVM programmability out of the box from the beginning. You mentioned the unis swap for example or the trading platform, right? You can take the code as is unis swap as is and put it in a facet account and do what we do with mega is with just

unis swap. It would be like uni chain basically in one in one app like an app chain right so we want to allow people to do that themselves to bring any EVM program and build their own upchain with that program on facet that's what we want to do before uh test net and then six months um later for fast forward six months to the mainet we want one want to to support to sustain 100 1 million TPS 1 million TPS okay it may not be demand for 1 million TPS initially But we have the network to sustain 1 million TPS at launch. Um and we want to add a few other programming languages. Uh we are thinking at least of Rust and Move as programming languages. But it's

important to understand that it's not the same philosophy like in Fluent where you have you know multiple VMs all merged together. No, there will be different completely different services for different uh different programming languages. You plug and play your language essentially. >> Yeah. And what's the best way for our our community and the community at large to get involved? Uh, you know, >> we got quite the fans here in the chat. The fans are going are really enjoying this. So, >> they're loving it. No cap. >> Thank you so much. >> Fans. >> So, just go to pi2.network and uh go to our devet from there and play with the network. Do some transactions. See for yourself what it means to have instant finality. It's that thrill. Each time I show it to

everybody, to anybody, go to facet.xyz. when I show it, when I do transaction, they say I cannot believe it. That's not true. Cannot happen that fast. It's instant. >> Shout out to >> see it actually. >> Shout out to Cartellian for being active today. Um, you got quite the Pi squared community here. Uh, they've been pretty fired up. >> Wonderful. Thank you, >> thank you for joining us. Uh, it's been a pleasure, man. We'll let you get back to it. Uh, I hope that the next couple weeks are are uh busy, but in a good way and fruitful as you guys go to go to test net um and launch that in into mainet and look forward to having you back on closer to mainet, man.

>> Thank you so much. I really enjoy your show, guys. Thank you for a great service to the community. >> We appreciate it, man. Speak to you soon man. >> All righty. >> Bye >> bye. >> All right. Infinite TPS for the boys. No cap. >> Yes. Yes. Very, very, very fun conversation to kick off. That was our only guest of the day. I had been waiting to get Gregor on for quite a bit. Um, yeah, like I said, the chat was just kind of firing. Um, what do you say? What is big shout out to all the builders in the room. Gotta love it, baby. Um, all right, Rob, I think we gota we gotta start ripping

through some of the news, some of the activity today. Tons of different videos, things to uh tune into. >> Oh yeah, let's do it. Um why don't you go on one of your one of your famous rants while we get set up here. >> Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to have a quick look at what's going on um in the in the state of affairs today on good old tradingview.com. >> Okay, >> let's see. >> Yeah, Bitcoin looks pretty straight. 93 uh breaking out. I think what we talking about yesterday is going to keep kind of applying with regards to we're going to get a battle between the bulls and the bears at some point here here soon enough. Uh probably closer to the 100k level. I mean it's just insane. The

level of performance from the stocks is just I mean wow really makes you wonder what we've been doing holding crypto this whole time. [snorts] Not exactly but like my goodness. [laughter and gasps] My goodness, man. It feels good to have taken some profits, man, in the last three months. I'll tell you that though. Feels freaking good. Um, and yeah, I mean, today's a big day for Ethereum with Fusaka, uh, as well as other kind of general updates. So, um, I think we should start with Fusaka as that was kind of the the main thing that we want to, uh, cover on the Ethereum side today. Um, so the Fusaka upgrade is going live as of 2100 UTC. [clears throat]

So what is that to EST? That's about 3:00. So in about an hour or an hour and a bit, uh, Fusaka will go live um for Ethereum. Basically, it enables Perass and a bunch of other upgrades. Um, so yeah, I think I think the Ethereum Foundation took a a page out of the Salana uh Foundation marketing book. I don't know if you guys saw that. Uh, and they put out this really cool video. I think it's worth it's worth playing. >> Uh, yeah. We're going to get it loaded up here.

>> Cool. Why don't we just take a quick break, guys? Uh, and we'll come right back for Fusaka. Uh, be right back in a sec guys. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. [music] Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, [music] if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your

coins. [music] Get a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your [music] assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers [music] and payments.

Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's largest [music] prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to call sheet.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast and private per [music] trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. [music] Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinifi is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz.

Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again. Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stablecoin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit fra.com to learn [music] more today. Yeet is built for big moments, the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. [music] Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire [music] point. Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. >> All right, let's rip it. Fusaka >> Fusaka >> Fusaka is live.

>> Well, it's it's about one hour away. Let's let's play the video. This video is pretty based. >> Thought it was a pretty good video. >> We upgrade Ethereum two times a year with major changes to how the protocol operates. And the next one upcoming is called Fusaka. >> Busaga. >> Here's the uh the new upgrade of Ethereum. >> It's centered [music] around scaling and making life easier for users of Ethereum, >> giving rollups, L2s, much more scalability. also brings really exciting upgrades on the other two on on the scale.

>> Dude, Anscar was snapping >> absolutely snapping. Not only we get bus also glamster >> on board everyone's with >> our boy Ben the reason it existed >> we are not going to sacrif >> but securely is the key word >> Ethereum will scale and [laughter] >> particular scaling benefits both for the L1 as well as for the L2s >> really is introducing something >> it looks like the baby in the hangover >> with it technology >> more data means more blobs which means more capacity for rollups That data today is the limiting factor when it comes to the things that roll up needs to Ethereum.

>> And so if we can reduce the constraint of DA, [music] we can reduce the constraint of what can be built on Ethereum. >> You get the censorship resistant properties of Ethereum in DA itself. >> And then we have these great UX features of your devices like mobile phones >> which allows mobile users to authenticate themselves using their fingerprints. especially pass keys which are coming to L1 and Ethereum. >> This is really important because it's gonna >> Oh, I like how they go through >> reduce the friction or custodial wallets. It's possible for builders to the third pillar a very simple end to end user experience >> that don't compromise on security for the end user. some of the other Fusaka

upgrades like >> this is just like world TV dev connect just like all in one video >> going to also enable >> we talked to all these people is it's basically increasing the capacity the number of transactions that can be processed while keeping those really really low fees >> it's all about trying to create an environment that scales the entire Ethereum ecosystem not only is it reliable and it has 100% uptime but it can ship with velocity >> our work is not done and this is like the definitive >> dude the subtitles of the Ethereum scaling >> well you're too scaling Oh, here's Glam >> closes this chapter and opens the door to the next chapter that we'll have a lot more of next year, which is uh scaling the L1.

>> What comes next? Like, we're just getting started scaling. I'm super excited for Glamster. >> There's never been a better moment than right now to to get involved. >> Boom. >> Yes. >> Boom. >> Scale the L1, scale the L2s, and simplify the user experience. >> Boom. >> That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about. I put out this tweet that was like uh explaining kind of what Fusaka is and I think it's important. It's basically the main feature is pure pure data availability sampling which basically massively improved scalability for L2s and blobs. you know what a lot of these

alt DA uh chains had Celestia Availa they basically had data availability sampling baked into the L1 um and basically this is coming to Ethereum L1 where now you know you you basically do this random sampling of um of data across the network so each node doesn't have to hold all the data from all the L2s can it can just basically verify uh a a a fraction of it uh in the right order uh to prevent um kind of like this uh data withholding attack. Fusaka also adds blob parameter only forks giving Ethereum the flexibility to increase data capacity between major upgrades uh which is basically crucial to what I

just mentioned about enabling more scale. It also introduces a new blob fee model EIP7918 that keeps pricing fair and stable. Uh so again, you can kind of think of this as like uh there's like little tweaks and things that that need to happen to create a a more consistent reliable pricing model. Um and so that's what this new blob feed does. Uh on for for the L1, you get a couple new updates as well. Uh history expiry helps reduce node storage. So instead of these nodes holding all this historical data, there's this kind of new uh kind of technical structure that allows them to not have to, but still be able to access it if they need to. Transaction gas caps uh improve network reliability, meaning

that you can't get these massive variance and jitter in terms of the gas spikes. And then modxp cost fixes makes block validation faster, more predictable. Again, a lot of the upgrades in Fusak are trying to create more predictability and kind of reliability and consistency in Ethereum. Uh I I kind of think of it as like doing an oil change to your car with some slight tweaks that actually change how the engine work over the long term to kind of make it better. Uh the gas limit target also moves up to around 60 million. We had Ansgar from the Ethereum Foundation on at DevConnect. We spoke about how the the ambitious target is to 3x the gas limit every year. Uh so they're actually on track for that now.

I think next year they're going to try to push it even higher into the hundreds of millions. Uh we'll see uh how successful that gets with Glamsterdam and others. On the UX side that you guys saw in the video, deterministic proposer look ahead will make pre-confirmations and block production smoother. So it's almost like you can like have the proposer uh that proposes blocks able to like look ahead and and further like like look ahead to future blocks and basically make it so that the uh uh uh proposer and then the builder uh have a a easier more seamless way to create blocks. Um again a lot of this is around making more uh a a better UX for end users more consistency more

reliability. Uh and then as as mentioned in the video, there will be pass key style authentication. Eventually, this means no seed phrases. Uh it means face ID, it means secure device-based signins. Um is a really technical upgrade, but the core idea is to make Ethereum faster, cheaper, and easier to use while keeping it decentralized and resilient enough to handle the next wave of users and institutions. Again, this is like the first upgrade that we've seen that encapsulates the broader vibe shift from the EF, from the internal Ethereum Foundation, which I think that the community really felt and rallied behind during Devconnect Argentina. Um, Glamsterdam is next. I think Ansgar hinted that was going to be middle of

2026. So guys, Fusaka is live. Congratulations to the team. Congratulations to all the core developers and all the Ethereum holders. Another big hard fork for Ethereum. uh you only get you know one or two of these each year. I know that they're trying to make it easier to implement these as well but big congrats and uh it's a step in the right direction for the rollup ccentric roadmap for scaling the L1 uh and creating a better UX. So to all the core devs >> Oh yeah, those guys are cooking. The best analogy for this someone said uh way back when they were doing the merge uh was this is like fixing an airplane while it's in the air.

>> Yeah. like the technical lift of these hard forks while the network is live to do these things with no downtime is unreal. Super impressive. Uh and this is the bread and butter, right? Like I I think you're right about the uh the vibe shift from the Ethereum Foundation. I think that is a bullish reversal. Um but that's, you know, something that they're not particularly uh [snorts] it's not it's not their specialty, right? This is their specialty. Their specialty is these technical lifts. uh they've shown a track record of doing these things successfully. Uh and now not only are they doing these technical changes successfully, they're also implementing vibe shifts successfully. Big shout out to the Ethereum Foundation uh and

Ethereum as a whole. Um really really really great job and uh very grateful to be their partners at DevConnect uh for the rollup TV live from Argentina. Andy, I got another video I want to I want to show you. >> Yeah. What do we got for us? the prediction market super cycle. >> We got the CNN Koshi uh ticker uh collaboration video. >> We're going to show you that right now. This is pretty insane.

>> Let's get audio on this. Let's run it back. One of the best ways we can look at this is the prediction markets because they give you an indication of where people are putting their money where their mouth is, right? Do they think that the tariffs that these rebate checks are actually coming? And at this point, no. No. I mean, chance tariff Trump tariff uh the uh tariff stimulus checks are sent to Americans by o August of 2026. It's a 25% chance. That's one in four. So, that's not nothing. But the American people right now are craving craving some relief. And at this point it doesn't look like it is coming.

Although I will note John Burman this 25% it is greater than this 6% who say that tariffs decrease prices or that 5% back in March which are just you never see 1 2 3 4 5%. So look 25% ain't nothing but at this point it's low. >> Yeah it's interesting the prediction markets think that only one one in four chance that will actually happen there. her and Greek. >> You know, you you know what's funny is this probably pretty accurate. Like like I think that like when I asked people in the flesh here in person about it, they don't expect it to be coming anytime soon. You know, when Trump made that announcement, you could feel that it was like kind of like a like a Hail Mary.

Like it was like, "Oh, it's coming." And like I I I remember crypto pumped and people were excited about it. But August to 2026 to be expected only 25% chance. Dude, that is like nine months away. Eight months away. You're you're basically saying that this $2,000 stim check isn't going to be coming for at least eight to nine months. Look, I'm with I'm with the uh odds here. I'm with them. I'm with the prediction market better here. I don't think this thing comes before August 2026, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it did. So, it's, you know, Trump Trump can just do it whenever he wants. But this entire setup of Koshi on the bottom on the ticker just like how we have it here on Rollup TV. You've got live news anchors probably from like their first time

interacting with prediction markets. It's it it's pretty insane. >> Yeah. Let's just go back to the beginning of this video really quickly because this you can kind of just hear them their stream of consciousness as it relates to prediction markets in the first few seconds here. >> Yeah. Yeah, one of the best ways we can look at this is the prediction markets because they give you an indication of where people are putting their money where their mouth is, right? Do they think that the >> like this is what we've been hearing for so long. People are putting their money where their mouth is and this is the best indication of what people really do believe is going to happen.

>> Yeah. I mean, it's pretty crazy because these guys can come on and speculate about it, but now now they have the tool to tap into what the American people are thinking about the news that they are presenting. Um, this hyper financialization or this long degeneracy trade I think is just so apparent right now. And like the fact that it's going to be happening on CNN is just it's insane. What a win for Cal. >> Yeah, it's pretty incredible. Um, all right. One more that I want to we want to show. Leo, let's take it down. I'll put another one up.

>> Yep. Okay, here we go. So obviously predation market super cycle they're neck and neck. Yeah, >> operating. We talk about Poly Market as if everybody can use it, but [music] the truth is most folks couldn't.

>> Some AI generated 50 music in the back. >> Successfully predicted the outcome of the presidential election. >> What does this actually look like in success? trying to take my >> Yo, that's crazy. >> They went with the 50 Cent soul music. >> Early access. >> Early access available now. And there's Jake talking.

>> Yeah. I mean, man, I mean, finally, right? I mean, finally. >> It's crazy. It's no longer a problem to be a prediction market to be in the states with with this new regulatory change with the work that these teams especially Poly Market has put in follow following Koshi winning that CFTC case Poly Market coming out with their app. Um man this rivalry is just insane. So yeah I mean I think the long tale of prediction markets is cooked. Uh there's no third best. Uh this is a race between the two Goliaths. You've got Polymark and Khi. And now it's going to be

interesting because now there's no moat, right? For for so long Khi had the US moat and they had a head start. Uh now Poly Market is launching in the US. Very clearly it's a prediction market super cycle. Also Khi just raised a billion dollars at 11 billion dollar valuation. They announced CNN partnership today. Poly markets going live in the US. Jake [snorts] Paul just can't get off our feed. >> Jake Paul [laughter] >> like it's incredible because now we're going to see this play out in the free market. Um they're neck andneck.

They have valuations that are really really similar and this is going to continue to happen. I I expect now that they've raised all of this money. They're going to go and deploy all this and we're gonna be like this is just the beginning of the prediction market super cycle in my opinion. Now it's going to be time where they're going to go spend I mean I know people that are getting Tik Tok ads for KHI and now you've got you know multiple partnerships that are going live for Poly Market. It's uh it's pretty incredible winners and losers here. I I think Poly Market and KHI are both winners.

>> Yep. The losers are DraftKings. The losers are FanDuel. >> Yeah, >> the losers are potentially like the traditional exchanges. You know, we have uh the the guy from Citadel, I forget his name. >> Um but he has said basically they are looking at hedging and doing a lot more deriv derivative uh trading on prediction markets. And this means that the another loser just like sports uh betterers are going to start drawing away from these traditional more esoteric sports books and going into this generalized prediction market landscape. You're going to see derivatives traders start

to draw away from the the typical derivatives markets, could be CME, could be options markets and go towards prediction markets because of what we heard. You remember Trek came on the show and he said, you know, part of the reason I think he was at Citadel or or City Bank or someone similar >> and one of the reasons why prediction markets was so apparent was that there was exogenous factors that were getting in the way of their trades and they couldn't take pl just plain exposure on a particular outcome. And it was like, okay, we have this belief because of all these factors that we think, you know, for instance, Trump is gonna get elected, >> right? Yeah, >> but there were other and so the only

thing that they could do at Citadel was like, "Okay, well, if we think Trump is going to get elected, we know he's going to want to lower rates. He's going to want to pump the markets. Uh we we're going to bet on the S&P and we're going to take, you know, derivatives. We're probably going to buy calls on the S&P because we think Trump is going to get elected." >> But it's not like they knew. There could have been some world catastrophic event that caused the market could they could have been right, but still lost money. That's what you want to avoid as a trader, right? You want to be wrong and still make money. And with prediction markets, there there are ways to do that.

What a what a a week for the prediction market asset class as a whole. What a week for the market as a whole as as well. There's there's some other things specifically about crypto that I think we can talk about. It's going to take a super quick break, guys. We'll be right back with some uh a couple more cryptospecific headlines for you. [music] Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot [music] wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get [music] a Treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion dollar transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his Rio upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. Kalshi is the [music] world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade [music] today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai AI to have a fully private chat experience.

[music] Havachi is [music] fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz [music] to start trading today. [music] Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinify is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz.

Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to holiday.xyz XYZ to never write a smart contract again. [music] Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stablecoin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit fra.com to learn more today. Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, [music] if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. [music] Get a treasure at treasure.io. Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge

your assets now. Money shouldn't wait. Many men, many many many men. >> Do you know where that comes from? Like not the 50 Cent song obviously, but the AI like the it was 50 Cent in like soul like R&B soul. >> Okay. >> So Joe Joe Rogan has been showing like all of his guests like the power of AI. Like do you know how good it's gotten?

Some of them yes, some of them no. >> And his example is playing 50 Cent or like gangster rap. >> Yeah. >> In like 1950s soul. >> And it's it's fire. >> Wait, what do you mean like taking rap songs and then putting them into like a soul track? >> Telling Chachi BT, "Hey, take this take this Wuang song and as if it was a 1950s soul R&B singer." >> Wow. and then taking the lyrics and the vibe and putting it into a solo. >> It's fire. And so, you know, we saw Joe Rogan, Elon, you know, bring up Poly Market like they're very cabballed up with like >> Jensen Hong went on Joe Rogan like really recently or he's about to or the

episode's about to >> about I don't think that one we can check see if that >> Yeah, you're a big Joe Rogan fan, aren't you? >> I mean, he's he's the father of podcasting, dude. Like he's the he's the legend of the game, you know? We do it for the love of the game. >> Big fan of the game. Joe Rogan, Kill Tony. These guys are These guys are the best in the business. >> I've never seen a Kill Tony, >> but I got to watch one, >> dude. They're so good. >> All right, guys. Um, shorter episode today, but we'll be back tomorrow with a banger. We got a great great lineup tomorrow. Uh, longer stream, and then we'll close out tomorrow and Friday. Big week. We're we're basically full sprinting to the holidays. We we we got a ton of stuff in the back end to do. Uh

markets bouncing gives you some breathing room as well. So I think you can put the doomsday away and uh you know kind of keep hanging on here. I think there's a pretty good chance that the lows of 2025 are in but doesn't really matter. I think the I think the dichotomy and the and the split between the sentiment of what's going on in the institutional world and the M&A and all of that versus what's happening in the crypto world will just continue. So then you got to kind of choose to be on the side of the long-term vision. You got to choose to be on the side of, you know, kind of like what's actually happening in in the positive light, not necessarily paying attention to all the nitty-gritty in in the negative. Um, choose Rollup TV. Choose to be here with us day in and day out coming to you

live. So yeah, guys, >> shout out to each and every one of you. 20K subscribers on YouTube. >> Big milestone for the boys. It's been a long, long road. Yeah, more to come. Just one of those, you know, five, you know, overnight successes, five years in the making. >> Boom, guys. See you tomorrow. Much love. Peace. [music]