The Rollup TV: Arc, CAP Money, Centrifuge, Hyperliquid

Transcript

[Music] Ah, [Music] heat. [Music] Heat up here.

Hey, hey, hey. Heat. [Music] Heat.

Heat. [Music] Heat. Hey, hey,

hey. [Music] Welcome back to the rollup TV. Uh it is Wednesday, September 10th. >> What's going on, Rob? Dude, pump is pumping. People are starting to get on the pump train.

>> Shout out Thread Guy. Shout out to Allan for the call the other the other day. Further reinforced our conviction when Allan took the time to speak to us. >> You know, Hype Pump's doing the same uh uh revenue as Hyperlquid is >> in the last seven days. >> Varies, right? But yeah, the market cap onetenth the market cap. People were saying that the ratio is off. >> Project ascend is ascending. >> Dude, the revenue meta. I mean, I just we called it. It is the revenue meta. I was talking to to like Locky and some of the VC bros and they were like they were like uh they were saying something like dudes uh somebody called this the revenue. I think we're I think we're spot on here.

>> I think so too. You know Ryan Watkins yesterday was telling us about this. I think also we talked about this with Vance and he described the you know the the the revenue meta. Yes, it's a very much like show me the money uh market conditions right now and landscape. And I think, you know, there's a couple ways to look at it. You describe this as this return to fundamentals. Crypto enters its practical era. And I think that is true. But at the same time, another phenomenon that's happening is we're moving from like a tech industry to a finance industry, which I think is a another >> that's what Ryan said. Well, well, you know, it I forget exactly how Ryan described it, but it but it is very much

like this show me the money era. And I think what he was describing, yes, was this transition from >> this technology fundamentalism to more of like >> financial engineering type of technology, if you will. Like that is what's really moving the needle. Now, you don't see people decentralization maxing maxing. you don't see a ton of like posturing about who's going to you know these the in these value acrruel mechanisms in theory it's much more like okay these are the value acrruel mechanisms that are really working right now and these are the ones that have real substantive like substantial effort and practice and pressure on the market so it it just goes to show that I think

it's a different skill set now as far as why this is happening and and what is having effect on the market. >> Yeah, I mean we have an awesome awesome lineup today. I think pretty pretty relevant to the state of the last two days of the hyperlquid saga. So I mean guys, if you were here with us for the last two days, we've covered the hyperlquid saga in depth, the USDH saga. I believe we are still waiting for the final results. Um and there has not been any final decision yet. Um >> Andy, while we're on >> Yeah. While while we're on this topic, I uh I came across something in the Schol uh research discord, which is great.

Shout out shout out our our boys over there. >> Um it was a dashboard USDH uh tracker.xyz, and it shows which validators are currently signaling for which proposals. >> And I think it's I mean, we might as well call out the the most recent USDH controversy. We've talked about all the proposals so far and it's >> I mean this idea that this proposal has been rigged since the beginning in favor of native markets >> there you know the the evidence behind this and it's somewhat circumstantial is that uh native markets had the first proposal. Everyone else was scrambling to get this out over the weekend and they came out on Friday pretty much as soon as this thing went live and now we

have let's see the first and second top validators have not signal anything. Those are around the hyper collective and hyper scanning. >> Yep. >> But third, fourth and third and fourth uh which controls almost 20% of the vote. Infinite field.xyz and alpha tick have both signaled for native markets. Hyperstake hasn't signaled anything. And then Athena with about four and a half% uh from Imperator and Hyperion who has about four and a half percent also native markets. Yeah. some on here for Paxos, another for native markets. And so now, you know, the controversy that's being spurred by VCs alike is saying

that the USDH vote is rigged. >> Yeah, Steve thinks it's rigged. I try to get him on. He said he was not trying to be a part of the drama drama drama era drama arc. I don't blame him. Um, you know, we have a really interesting lineup today actually that's relevant to what we've been talking about this week. First up, we have uh Nick Nikil of which is the chief product technical officer at Circle uh also now working deeply on ARC. Uh so that'll be interesting to talk about why they didn't try to make any sort of proposal, what his take is on this whole situation and also just generally kind of get some answers for for the community about their decision to launch an L1. Then we have um Defi Dave of Cap Money. And if you remember,

Athena just launched this uh stable coin on Mega ETH. And people were really giving Mega E a lot of flack for launching the stablecoin knowing that their native ecosystem projects like CAP are now basically directly competing with the chain. We'll see what Dave has to say about that and his take on the USDH situation as well. Yeah. And then kind of to close us out, we've got uh some RWA talk from the centrifuge CEO Baji about uh RWA Summit and then some of the latest hyperlquid prediction market type of stuff with the butter team. So should be a fun stream. Um and we have a bunch of great guests today.

So I think we're I think we're looking pretty good. And our first guest is gonna be Nikil. So we're gonna get him up. And yeah, looking forward to this. Oh yeah. Yeah. Nil's going to join in a few minutes. I think it is going to be interesting to hear why USDC is taking the route that it did. Um obviously they currently control the USDC quote asset on Hyperliquid. They're absorbing all of the yield from it. Uh at the same time, uh and as far as I know, there's no revenue share program currently in place between USDC and Hyperlid. Um but obviously Circle has a revenue share agreement with Coinbase. And so To me, it would have been like just pretty

strikingly obvious that you would at least give Hyperlid as good of a deal as you gave to Coinbase. >> Just >> yeah, >> first principles, you know, if it works for Coinbase, they're doing significant volume. Why not do it with Hyperlid, too? >> Yeah, I totally hear you. Um, but I don't think Circle is just going to I mean, yeah, we got to see how Circle reacts to this. I remember when we were talking with somebody from I think it was on Monday. Uh we were talking about how like the like like the language to use for circle. Um and I feel like we can't try to bully them uh to you know give away the revenue. I mean look they're making >> van van talking about getting gang

tackled. >> Yeah. Exactly. But then with Circle, it's like we can't just try to bully Circle and bully Jeremy Aair and into trying to think that he's gonna just back down to people because they're mad at him on Twitter because he's not sharing the revenue because that's just not going to happen. You know, >> it it does seem I I I hear you like, you know, some people are going to respond differently to to pressure from the community. >> Yeah. >> But at this point, it kind of feels like it's all if all of these proposals are proposing to give 100% of the revenue to Hyperlquid.

>> Yeah. and the and the community, it kind of feels like it's between zero or nothing. Like you either give you either maintain control and you operate USDC kind of as a public good, if you will. That's what all these other guys are proposing. You give all the revenue to Hyperlquid or you lose it anyway and then you don't get any of the auxiliary benefit. >> Yeah. I mean, look, I think that uh I think that um regardless of who wins this ticker, um I don't think it's going to be a massive massive like I don't think it's going to end the the battle to be the um the main ticker, right?

Like I think that there's a there's a world where this is just the start of stable coins on on Hyperlid and there's probably going to be a lot more uh coming out of of this. people are all going to want to get into this uh ecosystem. A and I I don't mind. >> I Yeah, I I agree at at the end of the day, it is just the ticker, but I think and and someone tweeted this, maybe it was Ryan, but he said, you know, someone said that this vote is for the ticker, but it's really what matters is who wins the vote because that is the shelling point for the community. And yeah, the prize for that is really just the ticker, but it it is more than that because it is the community alignment and basically the signaling that yes,

this is the stable coin that we're going to choose. I agree there's going to be several stable coins that enter the ecosystem and are probably there to stay. >> Yeah. >> But but kind of where my where my knowledge ends here is that like how does hyperlquid how do the markets work if there's a bundle of stable coins? Because wouldn't that fracture liquidity? If we have different perpetual markets and spot markets >> across a range of stable coins and we use different quote assets for different markets, are we all all of a sudden we're going to have, you know, two hyperlquid markets, one against USDH and one against >> Yeah, I hear you.

>> You know, the other one like h how do we h how do we how do we consolidate those markets? I don't know. And I think that's going to be a challenge for the Hyperliquid ecosystem to to to come to bear once we do inevitably see multiple stable coins. >> I mean, look, man, this has been an incredible campaign for Hyperlquid. I mean, the tokens at $55. It was It's going to close this weekly in four days. I mean, this thing could close above 60 on the weekly. I mean, it would be insane. Uh, you know, we got the rate cuts coming. Uh, we have just people getting bowled up. Bitcoin having a little breakout this morning. Um, yeah, man. I mean, things are things are looking way more promising than they were a couple weeks ago, but yeah, I

think I Yeah, I mean, it's just this this whole pump hype barbell is just so obvious right now. And you people are even starting to throw Athena in there. What is Athena doing today? >> What What is the the acronym they're equating to soul lunac now? >> Hyena hypena. >> There's and hyena pump. >> Yeah. >> Crazy. Well, I think that Pump is a bit pump is yeah, Pump and Hyper kind of in a different category, but uh yeah, you know, Athena is going to end up becoming uh one of the larger, you know, revenue players of the space a and and and they have the massive debts going on as well, which is super super great. I I think one thing that you have to look at is

like when when we're thinking about buying pressure on these markets, we're looking obviously at the buybacks that could could take place onchain via revenue that occurs on chain. But then you also have to take into account all of the ATM ATMs that are happening offchain and all of that equity that's now going to flow in and kind of take take account of both the onchain capital flowing in as well as the off-chain capital. In Athena's case, you know, I'm not entirely sure how when Athena measures their revenue, you may know more than I do when it, you know, when this takes place, how much of that is currently getting back into the market.

Maybe we'll have Guy on another time to to sort of bring us up to speed on all the mechanisms that are at play there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh yeah, I think so. I think he saw some of the those Athena clips that were going pretty viral yesterday. I'm also with the uh Hyperlid one, so they're pretty stoked on that. All right, we got Nquille in the back. Let's get him up. Uh let's talk all things uh Circle Arc and more. Uh Nquille, good to have you on and uh thanks for being here man. >> Yeah, good to see you guys. >> Indeed, indeed. A lot going on. There's a lot going on in the space. uh notably not notably with Circle, with ARC, with P payment chains, Hyperliquids, USDH, it's just it's it's moving at a million miles an hour. Uh lots to cover, but

first would just love a quick intro, man. It's the first time that we've met you. What do you do at Circle? What is your uh you know, what is your favorite thing to do in crypto? What's your what's your background? Yeah, man. >> Yeah, I'm happy to spend two minutes on it. Uh I am chief product and technology officer. So in simple words it means I run the product engineering data teams uh at circle. Um I have been here this is my fourth year at circle. Uh so I joined um in early 2022. Um uh I came to circle to work on stable coins because I thought they were the most interesting piece of technology as I was changing jobs. Uh before this I was at Meta. I was, if you've ever uh worn those Ray-B

band sunglasses with uh cameras in them and audio, that's my project. Uh so I used to run all all AR glasses at uh Meta. Uh, and I when I was done with that, I wanted to work on something that had more scale. And I think stable coins were just super interesting because um, you know, there was nothing that I could obviously see that had uh that was uh that was not going to scale to every internet user. Uh, and so it's just like it was just magical. Like I worked on I like things that scale massively. Early in my career I was at YouTube. I used to run YouTube music. I used to run YouTube gaming. I started a lot of those projects. Um, and again like you know I

love things that are on the internet off the internet by the internet and and like I think like in 2009 like when I would tell people we were going to watch games on YouTube they would be like why why don't they want to just play them? I was like no no no they want to play them and they want to watch them. And so but that format only exists on the internet. Like I think if you are like offline and you're used to watching cable TV you don't understand it. you're like, what is this? And so for me, stable coins are the same. Like look, it's a superpower. Like anywhere in the world, if you have USDC, you have a, you know, dollar bank account. And I think as Americans, we don't quite comprehend how much of a superpower it is. Uh, but for the rest

of the world, it is it is a magical experience to be able to earn 6% yield on your USDC. Um, so not only can you have a dollar bank account, you can earn dollar yield on your bank account and not pay intermediaries fees. Uh, so as a tool of financial empowerment, it's massive. Uh, as a tool as like, hey, this is a massive upgrade to the internet. Uh, like I said, I was at Google in 2005. I've been working on the internet for basically my whole career. And so I love the internet. So anything that makes the internet better, I'm in.

So uh on crypto like I I read the first paper in 2009 when it first came out. I just I have photographic memory of reading it. Um I have a masters in computer science. My uh first distributed systems class was CIS- 675 at the Ohio State University and they teach you about the Byzantine general problem and and you're told it's not solvable. Uh and and then this paper comes out in 2009 and all it says is like look if you create the right incentives and within six pages the answer is pretty obvious and you and if you're a theorist in distributed systems you're like what that is not possible and then as you as like most people are in this space you sort of like invest in

Bitcoin you sort of give buy into Ethereum uh you sort of uh buy into the dream a little bit and so did I and yeah the idea of like Bitcoin was amazing to me. The idea of a world computer was amazing to me. Uh the idea of stable coins is amazing to me. So I've had a long journey getting here. Uh and I think it's just a really exciting time to be working on it because everybody's now interested in it like you said like u it's one thing to be interested in it yourself. It's another to be when everybody else thinks it's a cool idea too. So it's >> pretty fascinating just to see the distributed system like you said like it's almost an exercise in in patience and practice and seeing it out and you

kind of it's probabilistic right it works a little bit in theory and then just over time that answer gets more and more lindy and it's like okay well I guess over time I think actually this paper is actually right. Um, >> yeah. I mean, the paper's not obvious at all. When you first read it, you're like, it's not supposed to work and like Bitcoin is not supposed to work and and and then it just worked and then it kept working and then and every time you would like wonder, you're like, hey, is it going to work more and is is this going to end? And like even today you have people questioning it. Uh, so yeah, I mean there is no there is no uh sound theoretical way of like achieving uh consensus. you can only do a statistical solution. So, here we are. But

>> yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, Nquille, there's a lot going on in the stable coin space on chain right now. You know, just an example from this week, uh a a team, Mega E teamed up with Athena to basically launch the first L2 stable coin native to a chain, right? >> You have this hyperlquid USDH governance battle ongoing, which circle is obviously firmly a part of this. Um and then and then just in the last two weeks we saw the the launch of of a lot of these um kind of payments chains. So we had you know quite a few different things to touch on. Um notably one from your side of things is ARC. So ARC is the Circle uh payments chain. I'm I'm

just curious about the origin of ARC. How long has Circle been working on this? Why was this decided to launch now? Like how did this whole thing come together? Yeah, listen like uh circle launched USDC seven years ago and uh so in terms of uh so if it launched seven years ago people working on it two years prior to that and so uh just in terms of like thinking about stable coin finance circle has been thinking about it for close to a decade. The company itself is 12 years old but uh thinking about stable coins is is almost a decade old.

In all of that time, there were many discussions about like whether uh Circle uh should have an L1 or or an L2 for that matter. And like the timing never felt right because uh look we're we're a customer focused company like we are we want to make sure that our customers are getting what they want from us. Uh with the passage of Genius I think it is a particular moment in time. I think we are about to see a significant rewrite of financial infrastructure around the world. Uh and so uh we were like all right like if we want like all of this financial infrastructure rewritten what do we need? And I'll give you just a small example. Last year we were

onboarding uh a partner uh with 10 million wallets and this was a large partner and we went to a public chain and the cost for doing that for for us was like over $100 million and so we we didn't know what to do and like eventually we sort of like struck a deal with the foundation and like you know we'll keep I won't name names but like it was just a incredibly difficult thing to do and and so uh now if we are to say like look there's going to this massive rewrite of this financial infrastructure and we have to onboard let's not say five and a half billion people who are on the internet but let's just say a billion people on the internet what do we need and so we think we need three things we need like payment finality

right like so we need like the ability to say like look if I make a payment to you it's done and we would like to achieve that payment finality in like in less than a second ideally uh we want to make sure that gas is uh is payable in a stable coin and we're starting with USDC and and saying like look you don't have to rely on like variable token values to sort of like uh uh for for gas payment. And the third thing is we need is we need configurable privacy. And so configurable privacy because most people are very uncomfortable with the idea that their wallet balances are fully visible to everybody on chain. The fact that they're transacting with other people are fully visible. How much they're transacting is fully visible. So if you want to bring on big B2B flows,

consumer flows even like I'm sure both of you don't want the world to know like you know what your bank balances are and like your custodian is giving that benefit to you. Um so how do we solve all of that and so for these I mean those three things those three features fe uh features uh being core and then the timing like you know is like look it's the same thing you've said which is there's all of this activity in the market and there is a lot of interest and that interest is interest makes sense I don't think it is um uh it is uh fraught because everybody understands like if you are a developer today trying to start a new uh app and and it's going to be a financial services app. A you

can build on stable coins and you can skip a bunch of steps and then B you can now go after a global audience, right? Like so if you are a user and the user benefits because if you're a user any part of the world now all you need is a browser. So five billion users can now access the same financial services that uh you and I can uh sort of experience sitting in the United States. So that is just such a powerful thing. Um, we need a chain to be able to do that. That's why we're building one. Ours is not going to be the last one that gets built. Uh, there are going to be many many uh that get built. Um, and the existing ones will also thrive. So, yeah.

>> And I I think as you start to proliferate USDC further, uh, you built a custom chain that is specifically purpose-built for USDC. You know, one one thought thought that crosses my mind is that, you know, the the US is currently pushing stable coins hard. You mentioned Genius. The Treasury Secretary Bessin has also said three billion uh excuse me, trillion. We're talking trillions here. Uh in stable coins by 2028. What do you think happens to the other currencies around the world? Like people are understandably so going to switch to stable coins. They're going to get access to dollars and even yield on those dollars. I don't imagine that these other bureaucracies, these other countries that issue their own

currencies are just going to bend the knee. I'm just curious. I hadn't really, this hadn't really crossed my mind before, but what do you think those other countries doing with those other currencies once th those citizens start to transition to a dollar-based economy and probably a stable coin dollar-based economy? >> Yeah, I'm look like what we have built is infrastructure, right? public for the dollar that same infrastructure can be used for any currency anywhere in the world. So going back to my point about um uh that look we have this infrastructure if you are a developer today building financial services if you're a company building like financial services if you are a government who wants to stand up financial services how are you going to start like you

should start uh with an onchain solution right so I think it's kind of I liken it to how like the internet first came to the US and then it sort of spread to the world and and and then it thrived in the rest of the world like the first part first decade of 2000s like I think the internet was a very US concept right like you had Google in the US you had uh then Facebook in the US and like all of these other big Yahoo was in the late 90s was a big deal and it was a very US focused uh infrastructure very US focused internet economy but I want to say like after 2010 all the way to now like there was the rise of China there was the rise of uh other countries countries who have like large internet

uh uh b large uh user bases of internet and they got the same apps and sometimes they got better apps right like I think like on messaging uh they got uh I would argue that the rest of the world got better apps than we did and and now we have really good apps as well so I think of it as the same thing I don't think of it as like currency dominance I think of it as like look uh sort of uh distribution of this infrastructure and and a lot of lot of times times what we do in the US is sort of show the world how it is done and then a lot of the world copies it u and and and sort of like localizes it to uh to good effect right and I think that has been sort of what the US has invested in all these

years in globalization saying like look we do things a certain way it makes sense for the world to do things the way the US does it and that's good for us and it's good for the world and I think stable coins are the same thing like I think it's good for us it's good for the world um but different people will different countries will come at it like at different pace uh and and maybe Scott Besson's right that like you know we will have three trillion in like uh stable coin money but look there's M2 supply which is north of 20 trillion >> so I think like it's still a small percentage percentage of like the dollars in the world right like and so I think we have a long way to go we're I think we're in like 99 internet or 2002 internet and like trying to imagine the

future and it's very hard to imagine in 2025. >> Yeah. Right. And so there's just no way. >> Yeah. And and I appreciate that kind of uh connection to your previous experiment uh experience, you know, building out a lot of the internet uh you know, just early stage things from YouTube all the way through into now internet money. Um when you've not, you know, now that we understand like the global scale of what's possible here with with stable coins, I think that the entire world has really woken up to that. I' I'd like to draw a co parallels to your work in the uh you know previous era let's call it web 2 into the current era where right now there's a lot of push back from Ethereum people as to why these payment chains

didn't launch as L2s why they launched as L1's and so I'm curious if you can draw any parallels to the early internet days where network effects or the way that certain things were built out or decided had a like a lasting impact on the future of certain companies or entities or really just I mean answer the question of why build arc as an L1 and not as an L2 on Ethereum. >> Uh we can do both like so maybe I'll start with like uh maybe I'll start with the analogy and I I don't think we have to go all the way back to uh like early web 2 days. I think we can just look at uh GPUs and CPUs and AI workloads. uh you can run a matrix uh multiplication

on a CPU uh but like uh over the last like five years seven years we have like realized that uh running those computations on GPU is much more much more valuable it's much more efficient and and so you can argue that uh like we were running these computations on CPUs before and then we created like these very custom architectures for like AI computations which is why Nvidia is a is is such a big company Google has TPUs There are other sort of like ARM has an architecture in the market. So as markets mature like markets do start off like building something that totally horizontal like uh and and I think um it may be the case that um that we started

off in chains being like completely horizontal. Look the chains are like turing complete you can run any computer program on it. Uh but when you look at payments, you have like these specific needs around like payment finality. You want you don't your users don't want to hold a native token that have um that have variability in in price and they are looking for that configurable privacy. So we don't think we can get those things by going down an L2 path. And that's why we're building an L1. Um we hold like a lot of our USDC is on Ethereum. So I think it would be impractical for us to not support the Ethereum ecosystem. It would be uh sim the similar case for the other chains

including Solana and others like there is a ton of USDC on these chains. Uh we connect these chains using what we call CCTP which is our native bridge for moving USDC across these chains. Uh every new chain we launch we connect onto CCTP. And so I think we cannot like I don't think the growth of our chain can come at the cost of uh of like harm to USDC right like it has to be accretive and I think that's our challenge is to do that and do that well and so I think we chose an L1 architecture because of technical choices uh like I think those technical choices most people uh will agree with.

Um I think we should have we should expect more uh custom chains based on uh use cases just likening to like what happened in the past like look you have custom architectures that do get built out u and then yeah and just because we've done uh a custom investment doesn't mean that uh we will not be will not keep investing in the existing ecosystem. Uh and we have good incentives to do that is all I'm trying to point out. Like even if you don't believe me you should look at my incentives. We're in crypto. >> So you should look at my incentives as well like uh our existing distribution is north of $70 billion and that is none of that is on on any uh circle chain.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Just a a quick one there for you from our uh last two days on the show has been very hyperlquid USDH special kind of oriented but USC is not yet native on Hyperlid but has been argued by some very strong community members that you know USC has been live on chains like um you know natively on chains like um Cardano or chains like Hyera or chains like Ripple or kind of chains that perhaps have a lot less current uh you know action on the for lack of better term. What is the ETA?

>> Yeah. What is the ETA on native USDC on Hyperlid? >> So, we announced it in July, right? Like we said like, hey, we're going to bring USDC native uh on uh Hyper EBM. >> Yeah. >> Uh and uh we'll also connect it to CCTP v2, which is the fast HTTP. Uh it's going to be soon. I cannot give you an exact date because uh like I don't want to like you know put a gun to the head of my engineers uh uh but like look it's going to be soon like uh uh uh we've been working with the teams uh we understand there is eagerness uh we announced in July so we we announced in July because we had a plan and so we've always had a plan and

uh and we'll get it out >> so you don't feel threatened by this USH situation. Look, it's a new situation. I don't think it affects USDC. Okay. >> Uh that's my that's my take and the situation is constantly evolving. Uh and it is hard to follow uh fully 100%. Uh so far my assessment is uh USDH will be a thing uh right like it'll go to boat and it'll it'll be a thing. I don't think it is consequential to the way USDC operates uh in the hype ecosystem.

>> Got it. Maybe you just more generally could you explain why native USDC is so important to any ecosystem you know in hyperlquid specifically right now it's going through the arbitrum bridge contract to to ultimately get to hyperlquid at least that's how it was working. How how do you envision it working going forward once native USDC is implemented? So if you are somebody who is uh deploying a lot of capital right like on in on any chain for that matter uh you're worried you're calculating your risk right so your risk you're like making you are assigning a risk score to that investment and from every uh capital allocator that we have talked to uh bridge risk is significant

to them right like so it is non-trivial amount like it is it's different to sort of uh just rely on circle versus rely on circle and then like the bridge operator and I'm sure they're good operators uh on the bridge but like it goes into the risk calculus of like whoever is doing the investing on that chain and so that's why chains one native right like uh so um chains one native for that reason and then when we do native on the chain we also connected to CCTP right like so if you want to move like liquidity between Ethereum you want to move liquidity uh to your chain like from anywhere. Uh it becomes almost instantaneous. And so um for folks who care care about their capital

efficiency, their capital is not locked in your uh locked on your chain, right? So then they're more likely to deploy capital on your chain. So uh so so reducing risk uh making it so that capital can move to it uh very very easily. Uh and then like I think like those are the main reasons uh folks care about. And like then remember we also have like all the off-chain onoff ramps. So when we do like a native implementation on a chain >> you can send money to a bank account and you can get uh USDC on that chain.

>> And so that is massive. I think that is one of the most difficult things to do and and so and you can do that at least with circle you can do it in like the countries around the world like you can do it in Singapore you can do it in uh Brazil you can do it in in the EU. you can do it in the US and there are more countries that you can do it in. So if you're going and trying to boot up a real marketplace on your chain and you need liquidity and you need good rails and so having a bridge on arbitum is not enough uh to be able to do that or having a bridge it's a great way to start. It's a great way to get scale. It's a great way to like you know um uh go build your

application uh and you know and make it and get users and and then like it becomes uh obvious that there is you're going to you're going to want native so because you want to attract this capital you want this users you want the capital and then you you talk and like we'll keep doing it we'll keep adding there will be more announcements from us on uh native implementation because like I said all our business is not on uh circle chain on is not on arc and it would be foolish for us to ignore that. >> Yeah. Nikim, I'm curious what your perspective is on the uh on the broader stable chain landscape, right? Like there's a number that come to mind. You got like the more tether oriented ones, plasma stable, then you've got uh Arc

obviously oriented around Circle and then you've got Tempo with Stripe. Uh and then even rumors that Google is coming out with its own kind of L1 chain. Um when you look at this landscape, do you see these things as having geographical distribution edges? Do you see this landscape of being different types of countries that or different types of user bases that make an edge? Is it a tech differentiator? Is it a distribution via payment processing systems and POS systems and uh you know the app store? Like when you're looking at the landscape, what is the what is the differentiating factor across the board for these? what are you guys ultimately competing on with each other?

Like what are the set of of of kind of competitive variables here that circle wants to win with ARC? >> It's a really good question. So like yes, I agree there is a lot of uh there's a lot of activity on on these chains uh on new chains as well. Um it might my take is that it is uh it is sort of trying to tell trying to figure out like if there's going to be like one website or there going to be many websites on the internet right like and there's going to be a head and then there's going to be a long tail and I think the head may be small uh in that like there may be like a Google and a Facebook and an Instagram and maybe like

20 properties that like dominate traffic and then there will be a long tail after that. Uh the cost of like bringing up a chain is going down like you know this like to bring up an L2 is not very difficult but to get the incentives right to go to market with the right application builders to get to get everybody aligned on the vision to build something that is performant that does not go down that and and to do it globally is very difficult. So that last 20% the first 80% is easy I think the last 20% is incredibly hard and I think for those teams that can solve that problem that last 20% is that is where I think like the chains will be able to differentiate and will be able to solve

real user problems like I said like I was going to my example about those 10 million wallets yeah you can go create wallets and when you're doing it subscale you don't care uh but suddenly when you're doing it at like massive scale you're like I can't afford this and like uh and and so um it's unknown like what the future will look like. I mean I I can't make a prediction. Um I think we will be there. There will be few others who are there. Um I think the existing public infrastructure will be there because that's valuable uh for a majority of use cases. Um yeah I I don't I don't know I don't know I don't know the future. Uh it's very hard to predict. I I wouldn't have

predicted 2025 like is how I'll say it. >> Uh Andy, I think you're on mute there. >> Sorry guys. What What is the development timeline for ARC? >> Uh we should be in uh public test net soon. Um and then uh and then we'll get out of test net when we're ready. Um and that should also hopefully be soon. Um >> beautiful. Um but we're working very aggressively on it. We acquired a team uh uh last month to help us with the consensus uh part of ARC and uh so we have uh really smart folks on the team like working on consensus. We have smart

folks working on applications. We are uh yeah we'll get the we'll get the public test net out. We'll get the feedback. Hopefully we don't get bugs and then we'll go. >> Yep. Michael, thank you for your time. Uh, great work on ARC. I think the entire crypto community is excited about the rise of of these more kind of payments institutional type chains. I think the Ethereum community is upset, but happy that you guys are using EVM. Uh, you know, if that remains and I think that there's just a lot to come in the stable coin race, guys. >> There's a lot. Yeah. Thank you guys. I really enjoyed the conversation.

>> Thanks for coming on. See you next time. >> Yeah. >> See you soon, man. Cheers. >> Bye. Rob takeaways. I mean, >> I think Kale's got all the right answers. I mean, I see this is someone who's done it before, which I think is pretty important when we're trying to scale to trillions. >> And, you know, he also gave another sense of the tan, which is that it's not just three trillion in stable coins, it's also 20 trillion in M2. And I think that's not just, >> if I understand correctly, that's not just the US, like we're talking global M2.

>> Yeah. You know, like that is like, you know, they've already got what do you say 60 billion, maybe 90 billion. There's just a lot of room >> for circle. Circle is around 60 or 70, I think, >> for US. Yeah. Circulating >> USDC. >> All right, guys. We have DeFi Dave coming up next uh from the CAP uh team. Uh he will be repping the the stable coin thesis as well on his end. Um should be should be a fun conversation. Um very interesting setup from the mega eth side. So definitely curious on his perspective there. The latest with cap and symbiotic some of this USDH hyperlquid stuff as well. Um so yeah

guys I think we're going to get him up and get ready to rock and roll. Hello. Hello Dave. How are you man? >> Hey. Hey. Can you hear me? >> Yeah we can. Welcome to the show. >> See you. I hear you. Everything's good. >> Oh, there we go. Okay, >> there. Now we're working. Sorry about that. >> How's it going, guys? Thank you so much for having me on, >> dude. This is my >> This is my work uniform. The cherry blossoms. Like, when I put this on, I know like, okay, it's it's time. It's time to get in stable coin mode. It's time to >> time to log in, stay pegged, stay stable. So, yeah. Thanks for having me on, Andy Robbie. Uh, I love how you uh reached out to me after my Pendle post.

>> Uh, yeah. And like it's funny. It's funny being in DeFi for so long, but some things just kind of like go past your head or you don't really pay attention to it. Like Pendle's been around for a long time since like 2021, but and I even interviewed Pendle for my old podcast at Flywolf, but I didn't really understand Pendle until Cap and when we started our own, you know, when we launched and started our CAPS points program, I was like, "Oh, this is really cool. Um, and like that's how I came up with the yin and yang comparison with it and like and and uh everything we're doing at Pendle with the Pendle team with our YTS which I think are a great opportunity right now. Not financial advice.

>> Dude, I think it takes everyone so long to understand Pendle because it's just complicated. Like you know you're you're you're in the trenches if you understand how YT's and PTS work. >> Yeah. And like how I basically broke it down in my post is like yin and yang and like what pendle does you have the yield token stakes custod and that's the whole and it separates them into two parts. So you have the PT which represents duration and time and then it's completely strips the yield from it and it's only the token and so it's a zero coupon bond and so you know these pendal markets they last for a period of time the uh stake COC won't last for another 140 days so it ends January 29th so at on January 29th that PT token PT stake

COC will be worth one it will be worth one stake cousd >> uh on the other so that's like yen yang on the other side, the YT token, that's the volatility, that's the yield, that's the floating token, and that's pure yield exposure. And so with that, and so that uh is the opposite of the PT because at the expiry date on January 29th, that's worth zero. But they have this thing, I think, where it gets confused. People are like there's all these random stats like what's implied APY, what's this, APY, that. So the implied APY is just like another way to say price. And so for example with like stake CUSD it's like a few days ago the implied API was like 14%. And you know

if you're think if you're like thinking in your head like okay like the delegators are coming online the operators are going to start borrowing the in the API is going to increase that's it's logical. So you could have bought the 14 like the YT token of YT stakes CC at 14%. Now last time I checked it was 16%. And since then, we had our first delegation uh from Renzo to Concrete. Uh they were delegated $5 million to Concrete. Concrete did their first borrow of over two and a half million. We have, you know, another few million coming online. And so in my if you're thinking like, okay, there's 86 million cap 87 million cap in circulation and there's more delegations

coming online and there's going to be more borrows. Well, you you're thinking to your head like wait the that implied APY is the interest rate is going to increase the implied APY which is the equivalent of price is going to increase as well. So like that's just like one mental model you can like use. Um not so that's that's how I'm thinking about it. Do you guys have any questions? Does that make any sense? >> Makes total sense. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think yeah go ahead. >> No no yeah. So I mean obviously separating the yield into uh like the the position into principle and yield I think is one way to think about it. But then >> what I really like about Pendle is that >> oftent times you know in the in the traditional markets you have Jerome Pow

come on and basically tell us what the interest rate is right that is very centralized. It's extremely authoritative. Like that's just that is what it is. He's chairman dictator of the US you know Federal Reserve. But in this onchain economy, there is no chairman dictator. Like Vitalic could come out and say, you know, what he thinks the interest rate should be on stable coins, but no one's there. It's such a diverse ecosystem. And Pendle does probably one of the best jobs at figure at at creating a robust market around interest rates to not not just between supply and borrow flows like a but to allow people to actually speculate on interest rates and create derivatives based on what what is a very

fundamental thing in any economy including the onchain economy >> and not just interest rates but points as well. It took me a little bit. It's a tiny bit longer to get get like how the points circulation work like for caps. It's basically a le a super leverage bet. Uh if you just want pure like points exposure or caps exposure, you buy the YTCUSD. So let's say this is like ideal for like let's say you have like a small amount of capital or like 50 bucks or 100 bucks, 500 bucks or whatever and you just like want you you know what you want. You just want caps.

So, like you bought instead of just holding like CD, which is, you know, let's say you have $500 of caps, you hold you get you hold $500 worth of CS and that's 5,000 points. But let's say you take that same $500 and buy $12,000 worth of YTC. Well, that YTCUSD is at 20x caps and that is 240,000 points or caps a day and you subtract the 5,000 points. for that same 500 $500 you're getting 5,000 caps you can actually get 235,000 caps of exposure a day. So it's when you like work out the math of it if it's

really crazy. So that's like if obviously like it comes with its risk and stuff and that's why like I saying like use like small amounts but it's like a whole different it's like a different way like this is how people have been playing points for the past year or few years actually. So that's another way to look at it. >> Yeah, it's gotten it's evolved so much that it used to just be easy points. Well, it used to be liquidity mining, right? You know, with the DJ Spartan era, >> there was no points. It was just >> put your money up and yeah, pool two. And then we got the points >> and now we have like these exotic derivatives of the points and and such.

And it's uh yeah, it just evolved and gotten more and more sophisticated, which I think has just made it harder. Well, it's just made like you have to have an edge and you have to have like a process and and a system. >> Yeah, exact. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And Robbie, I love what you said before. It's like we don't have Jerome Powell telling people like this is what the interest rate is. We, you know, in crypto and in true DeFi and why we're all here. It's we don't have people, we have protocols, we have rules, we have definitions. And this is exactly the thinking we have behind cap and exactly the thinking of how we build crap cap, how we structure cap, how we place the different actors within the cap protocol. Uh because we know that people are infallible. People make mistakes.

People are prone to conflict of interest whether it's or people I mean look at all the things that happened uh last cycle with you know 3 blowing up FTX on this all that. It's like we shouldn't trust people. We should rely just on protocols and rules that we all voluntarily uh act into. >> Yeah. And when it's all on chain, we can see the incentives. >> Exactly. Exact. Yeah. It's all it's incentives all the way down. You show me incentive, I'll show you an outcome. Well, on that note, Dave, I have uh a a bit more of an interesting question. I think with regards to cap's setup within the Mega ETH ecosystem, we saw Mega ETH launch this uh USDM product with Athena uh I guess yesterday or the day before

and I just saw a lot of chatter on the timeline about how, you know, there's just Mega ETH is competing with its own native stable coin cap. You know, why do they keep doing this? GTE left for this reason. It's just a lot of FUD. um you know what is your brutally honest take about this USDM product in relation to CAP money and to the Mega ETH ecosystem when you first saw this news what was your reaction >> yeah so CAP has always been a layer on top of these payment stable coins these payment genius compliance stable coins so think tether USDC and USDTV such as you know what they're using and so they wanted a very specific product cap is very

different in its DNA and makeup Um and so they they went ahead and got their own T-Built I call T- belt payment stable coin and in the plan is in the future this has been said by bread guy this has been said by Benjamin uh in the future like USCM will be used as collateral to plug in to the cap system um and be lent out in the whole protocol and whatnot. So, you know, we're and also we're just like we we've lost we're just focusing on building and growing on mainet. Um and so yeah, that's it's a layer on top of USCM.

>> So you don't feel that it's like adding uh competitive pre competitive pressures. It's like additive to the entire e >> more liquidity. Yeah, there's like more stables, more liquidity. So you know you Yeah, >> maybe we should have started with this, but could you just give a more holistic overview of like what is cap you know like >> Yes. from and where you guys are at as well. >> Yeah, because it's like Yeah, of course. Um, so CAF CAP, we are a yield bearing stable coin and we use restaking as a primitive to allocate capital to yield generators and also protect users from downside risk. So, we know so how I like to map out the system is you have three main actors within the cap protocol. You have users who mint the stable coin CSC.

You have operators. These are market makers, trading shops. So think you know IMC, flow traders. Um we have all our operators listed on our website. Uh we outsource yield generation to them. Uh and they generate yield for our protocol. And then you have restakers. So think symbiotic layer uh and the protocols that built on top of them like Renzo, Ether, Kelp and whatnot. The uh the resters uh they underwrite the entire system. And so to go over the flow of this, uh operators and restakers, they'll come to an agreement.

Uh the operator and the market maker will be like, "Hey, this is who we are. This is our strategy." The rest uh will do due diligence whether themselves or a different party. Um and if they feel comfortable, um they decide to delegate their capital to the operator. So Renzo will delegate their capital to concrete. This was the first delegation that happened. Um and so that delegation acts as collateral for the operator to uh access the cap protocol. So the researchers vouching for the operator. So now like the operator goes like concrete they go and they're able to borrow uh the UFCC that's underlying the cap protocol and they go uh they execute their strategy. Uh they pay back the protocol for the loan. They pay premium

fees. They're reakers. And the reason why these operators love CAP so much and they've all invested in our protocol and they're all participating in our protocol is because they're able to access the underlying collateral in the CAP protocol without any cost of capital because remember it's the reest they vouch for them. Uh all they have to do is perform the strategy and perform it well pay everyone back and they get to grow their book without any friction without any cost of capital. So they love it for that reason. Resters love us because I like to say that PMF for restaking is yield. give them like an actual sustainable yield source beyond just farming. And then users love us for two reasons. One, you as a user, you don't have to worry about like, oh, is this strategy how what's the time limit

for the strategy? Is it going to underperform? Yes or no? Like, you know, you're always going to be getting the best strategy because you have operators competing for that underlying collateral basket that's backing uh CSC. And so maybe some operators are better in a bull market, maybe some have like a better bearish strategy, maybe some somebody sees an opportunity for a week, maybe for a month, maybe for a year, but we can't make a stable coin that has an opportunity for just a month, but they can all plug into the cap protocol as long as they have a delegation and get that strategy. And it's the users that benefit from it. So they're always there's always going to be uh high competition and high performance there.

And then the second reason I think is the most important is that they're 100% protected from downside risk. And this is huge because like I said at the beginning of the podcast, you know, we've been through like 3AC, we've been through FTX, how everybody on the cap team are all D5 veterans. Like I, you know, I've, you know, was with Fracks and with Diero and Gelato, Ben founded Cheetah, we have all the beefy devs with us. We've seen bridge hacks, we've seen DEGs, we've seen it all. Um, and so we're tired of that. We want to do something about it. And so we that's why we all came together to help create CAP and be let's say like something does happen like let's say an operator runs off or whatever. Uh remember it's the rester that delegated and vouch for them. So it's the rest that gets slashed

and that whatever gets slashed like the ETH or BTC that gets slashed or they rest that gets like sold back into USC and put back into the protocol and users don't have to worry. So, I like to think of it as like a onchain commercial FDIC in a way and like you know how the FDIC like kind of protects they do protect every US bank depositor up to $250,000. It's simil it's not the same as that. It's definitely not the same as that, but it's quite similar. It's a similar in action. Um and so you don't so users are always 100% protected from downside risk in that regard. Um and this is the first stable coin of its time. We you know we call it a type three stable coin. Um, and uh, it's pretty [ __ ] cool and that's why I'm pretty excited

about it. Um, and so far we launched three weeks ago. We launched August 18th. Uh, we were the fastest stable coin to get to 60 million in circulation in under 22 hours. Uh, currently we're sitting at 87 million circulation, I think 92 million TVL because we're we had uh, the delegation and whatnot. Um, and so we're growing. uh more opportunities are coming for people to you know earn caps or earn uh loop their yield. So we had morpho our morpho pool launch so people can loop there. Oiler is launching at mintling. It's launching this week. Um and so like people can go loop their stake cusd and ptc USDs and whatnot. Um and and of course pendal and

so now we've kind of come full circle. So that's cap no cap. Uh yeah. >> Yeah. And I'm curious, what is your uh like max bullcase for cap? Like in in a world three years from now, stable coins expand in total supply to multiple trillions on chain. You know, like what is caps where is cap in that world? >> I think cap is one of the preeminent stable coins out there. Uh for sure. I think you see I I mean stable coins in three years. It's going to we're probably going to see in the trillions and I think with cap you're going to see in the tens of billions honestly. um if stable coins reach like trillions of dollars which they at this rate they will especially with you know the genius act passing um and like all the stable

coins that are come online I think stable coins are just going to be another layer in our daily life generally speaking and people aren't going to be aren't going to notice the protocols under it in the same way we don't notice the protocols of the internet so I think cap like I said in the beginning cap is this yield bearing stable coin and we actually wrote in this in our doc something called like a singleness of money uh and so you all these different payment stable coins out there and they're all going to have like a different distribution angle this and that and you're already seeing that. You're seeing like PYUSD um you're seeing like Stripe, you're seeing all you're seeing MetaMask like everyone's coming out with their own stable coin but CAP will be this layer on top that will aggregate all those stable coins into one collateral basket.

Uh and because of the way cap's constructed as a PSM, they'll all be interchangeable with each other. uh operators can like come in, choose their stable coin of choice, like run their strategy with it. Um and so I think CAP is the great uniter of stable coins. People think, "Oh, there's be too too many stable coins being fractured." Like, well, Cap's going to unite them all. >> Yeah. >> I'm curious if you guys uh have a a stance on the Hyperlid saga that's been ongoing. Uh either your personal stance or just from Cap's perspective. You know that meme like I think for I speak for both myself and Cap the meme because like um like I said we're yielding points so we're not trying to play the hyper liquor game. So it's kind of like

the meme of the the two girls fighting and then Yeah. That's the dab. Yeah. Yeah. The dab just watching. I think it's really fascinating the whole saga. I think like what's great about this and I I actually had a friend a call earlier with a friend who had like a lot of questions about payment stable coins and what they can provide like this is great information intel and intelligence if you're trying to learn about stablecoin offerings especially payment stable coin offerings well if you have all the hyperlquid proposals right there and if you want your stablecoin education of like how stable coins work like how their backing works how each one thinks about distribution how they're executing distribution you should just read all these proposals. Um, so I think I think

it's really cool in that regard. Second, I think it just shows like how much mind share and not just mind share but like actual weight that Hyperlid has. I think the real winner of all this is Hyperlid because everyone's talking about them and you know you have a winning protocol when people are fighting over you and you just like look at the hype price. I think hype went up to like 55 bucks since think about when the this whole thing started to like where it is now. I I believe it's been more up because like oh [ __ ] people actually care so much about they care about the outcome. So it's funny like we had the curve wars like three years I tweeted this we had the curve wars three years ago um and it was like way different type of battle

and now we have the hyperlid wars. So it'll be interesting like to see what the outcome is. It's like will will it be native markets? Will it be Paxos? I really love how everyone's just like bringing their agame here and bringing this like it's like a genuine discussion about stable coins and their offerings. Dave, we uh we're were speaking about this USDH this proposal quite a bit and one of the things that that came to mind was that it kind of felt like um it kind of felt like some of these really big stable coins, the the circle with the USDC and Tether with USDT, they were sort of pulling the ladder up from under them and and and they were doing that by essentially um you know launching their

own stable chains and they were taking this direction where it felt like they were they kind of taking this monopoly on the industry and and it seems like you you don't view it that way. How do you think, you know, as the stable coin circulating supplies grow? Do do you see kind of like the rich get richer and these bigger stable coins start to acrue more and more of the total the total value here? Or do you think, you know, obviously with CAP being, you know, not one of those two, but kind of, you know, garnering market share, you you anticipate to grow market share, I'd imagine. How do you view the competitive landscape with stable coins? And maybe you could explain a little bit more how you how you unite the stable coins that are out there now.

>> How I how do I view the competitive landscape of stable coins? Uh I I kind of split stable coins into two different categories. I mean I do. You have distribution payment settlement stable coins and then more infrastructure yield bearing stable coins. So you have the payment stable coins and this is like USDC, USDT, FAOS, you know, Agora, everyone. They're like kind of all uh competing to be that, you know, point of sale and it kind let me go back. Um so the what makes these payment stable coins? Well, they have treasuries back in them. They have some connection to the real world. Uh there was just legislation passed with the Genius Act uh about them. Um and so that's what

makes them payment stable coins. And I feel like they're all kind of like fighting the same battle. Uh and so and obviously like Lindy has a lot to do and like just surviving has like a lot to do with success. And so Tether has been around for 11 years. Um te USC has been around for for since 2017. I think what why each of them succeeded to the level that they have succeeded is they hit some niche really well. And so Tether was the stable coin for centralized exchanges and centralized exchange settlement. USC became the stable coin for DeFi, just ubiquitous in all of DeFi. Uh, and so I think for like a stable coin to succeed, whether it's payment or infrastructure, it has to hit

a niche super well, hit it hard, and that niche has to grow and the stable coin must scale with it. And so that's what like USDC and USDT has done really well. And so what I'm explaining with Cath and when I talk about a singleness of money which I recommend everyone who's curious about this to go to our docs um is you have all so each of these imagine so each of these different stable coins are hitting their niches like there will be different ones in the future like hell like USC could turn PayPal can like turn a switch tomorrow and every single dollar within PayPal and Venmo is a stable coin and then boom you have like 40 million $40 billion worth of stainable coins right then it's now top three stable coins. coin uh in in the space. And so each of these

stable coins are going to hit each of their different niches and you have operators, you know, performing different yield strategies within those niches of those stable coins. Uh there's going to need to be a uniting point for everything and that point will be the cap protocol. Another I I saw like um a few people after one of our announcements say like oh like this is after a Renzo concrete announcement like this is what CAP is like some nice TLDDRS and one guy put it very nicely like CAP is basically an onchain prime brokerage and so we're like helping facilitate all these deals basically all these deals and agreements in a crypto economic guaranteed uh trustless uh sovereign manner and everyone's protected with

>> restaking I got one one more followup for you which is kind of a a a followup on the last one which >> remember the second part of this question which is that the these really big you know stable coins are potentially more favorable in uh low rate environment because you know the as I see it you kind of have this idea that yes stable coins are growing to the trillions uh and there's a ton of support and a ton of adoption but we're also entering this this rate cut environment and as you know the the yields on T bills and these these stable coin reserves comes down the stable coins that are poised to do the best are

the ones that have a greater capital base because then you know even though the the yield is smaller because they have a large capital base the delta that they can that they can draw is still you know they can still generate quite a bit of revenue so as rates are being cut and I think you know we're certainly ahead of a 25 basis point cut, maybe even a 50 basis point cut. How might CAP with the the mechanism that you guys have laid out? H how will CAP stable coin react to a a rate cut environment?

>> I think it's incredibly favorable in a rate cut environment. I'm like kind of like salivating at the moment because it's just like it's like people are going to be hunting for yield like basically like when when JPAL like brings yield down it's like okay like game's on let's go. And so it'll be a lot easier tomorrow and people are going to be like, "Okay, like where can I actually find the opportunities out there? Um, people are going to want to take more risk." We've seen this happen before. We just saw we have we saw this not just but like four years ago when they like brought rates down. It was just like open season. We saw it happen.

So the same thing is going to happen, but the difference this time is instead of all those lending and prime brokerage and whatnot happening offchain, it's going to happen onchain, it's going to happen on cap. So, I think it's incredibly favorable for CAP and I'm excited to see uh what comes of it. >> Yeah. Dave, what's your uh what's your kind of onchain life looking like these days? Like are you doing like you know I just say speak from personal experience. My my my entire uh trading strategy or investment strategy was like 2020 2021 was like clicking as many buttons as possible. every yield farm, every deposit first early into everything, you know, tens of transactions a a day. And now it's kind of changed into more of

like very opportunities, trying to hold quality assets, maybe earn some yield, understanding smart contract risk, kind of like what is your DeFi, you know, evolution look like from your onchain experiences? >> I I think my path is very similar to yours. uh going from you know being excited like a kid in a candy store just like trying everything to be like okay like let's slow down like I don't need to be like pressing every button let me just do a few things so uh a few things I'm doing right now is like I'm obviously like a user of my own product because I think it's [ __ ] dope and so right now I'm staked in C USD I'm moving that on Morpho uh I played with Pendle a little bit um like I said earlier like I recommend everyone like checking back on

that um I'm on Hyperlid uh supplying into the Volantis pool on there. Um, I like uh kinetic as well too. Um, I still like love my boys at Bar Train. I know they haven't been in the conversation recently at all, but like, you know, I think, you know, they're still out heads down grinding and there's still people there. So, I'm out there. I just have my bear on Dolomite. Um, shout out Dolomite. Shout out Corey. I think they built a fantastic protocol. Um, and so I'm kind of chilling with like those things right now. And then just like holding Ethan. Yeah.

>> Nice. Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I feel you, man. It's just like there's now so many different things happening, so many different projects to you. You you kind of just have to keep your focus focused. >> Yeah. Like I'm I'm busy with calf. I don't have too much unless like it's something like the periphery of calf that has to like directly to do with calf. I'm usually just like, okay, there's only like so much like there's only so many different things I can bring my attention to. I'd rather like, you know, chill and then >> yeah, whatnot. >> Well, dude, where can our community get involved in CAP? How can we help you guys out? How how can they bring TVL? What can they what kind of yields can we get? Yeah.

>> Yeah. So, if you want to get involved with CAP, uh you can head over follow us on X Twitter uh capmoney join our discord as well. Our website's cap.app. Uh if you want to like get in the protocol uh use the protocol, go to cap.app swap. Uh if you want to earn point, if you want to earn caps or points, just mint coc chill. If you want to earn real yield which is around like 11 12% real yield then just swap into stake CEO fee uh and then we'll have we have all our articles too on our mirror and blogs where you can go into pendle and play with that you know go into morpho and all that so yeah and follow myself on follow me on Twitter defi822 uh feel free to message me and if you

write about cap uh I will probably DM you and and thank you and ask for your feedback so uh yeah uh that's where you can find us defi Dave Defi OG Cap Money coming live. It's live. Point season, man. >> Thank you so much for having me, Andy, Robbie. I hope to see you soon. >> Yes, sir. We'll see you in in New York probably soon, man. >> New York or FIA. >> All right, buddy. >> Nice, brother. >> All right, Rob. Well, I'm glad to hear from him about the um M or USDM situation not being super just competitive and over the top for their product vision, you know. I thought that that was uh that was good to hear

because yeah, I mean it kind of looked I mean I mean people are always futing on Twitter, but it just looks it it didn't look great. But then again like this whole Athena stablecoin as a service idea is just crazy. like, "All right, we'll just bring a native stable coin to your chain, give you a revenue stream, we'll take a little cut of it." It's just it's pretty it's a pretty damn good offer. >> Yeah, it is, dude. I mean, like, it's a win-win. The only one who's losing is maybe this the other stable coins on the chain, but then we hear from Dave and he says, "No, like actually it's still bullish. It brings more liquidity, brings more TVL, and it brings more potential uh you know because because Dave stablecoin is a reststake stable coin, which means that in theory, you could

put some more of that TVL that ends up on Mega ETH. You could go and you could restake that and it would it would add to the collateral base on Mega ETH and as part of it would add to the collateral base of CAP. So I I I I think he's on to something about how they are able to unite stable coins. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I mean, look, I I I'm excited for it. Um if we would have got our echo up quicker quickly enough with all the verification stuff, we would have done an echo round for it.

But that's all good. We've kind of paused on that front anyhow. >> People are still joining >> that group aggressively. We We'll get it going again at some point. We got to just wait till things settle down a bit. Yeah. >> Um, but yeah, up next we got Baji Illuminati, the CEO at Centrafuge. They have RWA Summit coming up next week in New York City. Uh, we'll get to the inside on that. Uh, stoked on that. Let's go. RWA Summit. Um, and >> I got to say, Illuminati is a wild last name.

>> I I was almost gonna ask her about it, but I was like, I don't know if that's appropriate. >> Is that off limits? >> Yeah, but dude, this should be a good one, right? I mean, we're leaning into this RWA kind of institutional tokenization work on the show. Um, haven't had Baj on before, but looking forward to it. And man, the timeline is just absolutely in shambles right now about this assassination. >> Yeah. Do we are we in a position to cover that right now?

>> I don't think so, man. >> Crazy, dude. But yeah, it's just >> it's just uh Yeah, it's just it's all over the all over the >> It's um >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I guess he's not Yeah, he's not dead yet, man. >> And the video the ability for the videos to be so like that that girl getting stabbed and then and then now Charlie. It's just like it's just crazy how we have video of all this. I mean, this is social media era.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Is an old guy that shot him. >> I I think there's a conversation to be had. I mean, there's there's crazy rhetoric getting thrown around. I think >> Yeah. I'm just going to stick to crypto, man. >> Yeah. >> I don't really have much to say on this. It's just sad. >> It's extremely sad that social tensions rise. I think I I was listening to uh the all-in guys who hosted the all-in summit and I think they had uh they had Tucker Carlson on. >> Shout out Salana too >> for putting that together, right?

>> Salana I think was like the main sponsor of the All-In Summit. They had Elon, they had Tucker Carlson, Mark Cuban, just rockstar lineup. Kyle Sani did a did a keynote on inter internet capital markets. I haven't listened to that yet. They had the CEO of NASDAQ and obviously there's like really interesting things happening between the NASDAQ and um was it the SEC that there was a proposal that went through about bringing like more capital formation on chain >> um and Salana is at the center of it. So there's there's rumblings a foot. Um >> that's a that's a cool Yeah. So wait, yeah, who was on the show?

>> Any I mean I mean obviously that's a whole thing, but you know I I was listening to Tucker Carlson basically talk about this this like economic tension leading to social tension and I I think it's just you know people are mad. It's not directly like, you know, people are mad that they can't afford a house, but like they, you know, there there's there's a a domino effect to these kinds of things. And um it just seems like we're we're on a we're headed in one direction and if we don't correct course, it's it's headed for a precarious place. And yeah, >> and we just, you know, we just hope that these things resolve themselves peacefully. Um because right now, you

know, violence is not peaceful and that's not that's not what we want to see. Um I think probably a lot more interesting for this stream is a lot of the other things that happened at at the All-In Summit. Uh >> yeah, what happened at the All-In Summit? >> Well, they had a lot of um interesting speakers. Kyle Samani presented on on Internet Capital Markets, but I'm actually going to pull up what some of the other ones were because uh I haven't had a chance to listen to all of them yet. They had Elon Palunteer CEO and then the CEO of NASDAQ uh Mrs.

Freriedman >> who uh and I want to get this other bit of information so I don't I don't mess it up. I think they're working on Let's see. Yeah, all in was one of the the cooler uh looking events that I've seen from the crypto conference perspective in a while. It was like pretty uh pretty Yeah, it was pretty like outside the space, you could say. Um >> it's like at the frontier, you know, like this is kind of pretty cutting edge across it's cutting edge but across multiple different industries. So, it's kind of this precipice of like AI, crypto, >> politics, and policy. And it's like the

the bleeding edge of all three of those. And these are all emerging technologies. So, they all sort of intersect at the frontier. >> And so, yeah, I think it was I mean, >> it was a a really wellthoughtout and well put together event of several forward thinking, some of the most forward thinking people out there. Shout out to to the all-in guys. Um, >> obviously Salana, yep, title sponsor. And so the CEO of NASDAQ was there. >> Yeah. >> Side note, I think the Hyper Hyperlid did more in profit like last week or something than or maybe last month or last quarter than the NASDAQ, which is pretty insane. It was like 1.3 to 1.1 billion in profit. Yeah.

Um, >> what? Yeah, we can find that tweet. But Hyperliquid outperformed the NASDAQ over I think it was the extent of quarter. >> My god. Sign of the times, man. Don't don't call top yet. Uh anyway, NASDAQ files with the SEC to allow tokenization and blockchain listing of stocks. M >> and I think this was and I again I haven't had a chance to listen to uh her panel but I think this was a subject um and one of the things that she talked about >> uh NASDAQ follows Coinbase Kraken in proposal of stock tokenization and so we're already starting to see these like

derivative markets X stocks uh Robin Hood came out they said that they're going to list some of these stocks but it was like pre-public IPO preipo sort of listings and it was all just derivatives markets kind of like hyperlquids pre-markets but then just today or yesterday the SEC chair Paul Atkins came out and said we're going to allow capital formation on chain >> I saw that ICOs coming back baby >> essentially ICOs and we're gonna have this this crossover of public onchain listings like

>> there's going to be some sort of regulated offering that has a portion of their shares on the NASDAQ or like regulated brokerages and then a portion of their shares on blockchains and those are going to be potent maybe there's off-ramps onramps between one another I think what we're going to see is there is a gap in the industry for a company that solves the regulatory arbitrage between a brokerage and an on and a blockchain so that I can redeem my shares on Interactive Brokers for a tokenized version onchain and vice versa. We're going to see a ramp and it's just it's going to get built.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think uh yeah, there's going to be Well, I think the endgame is for like Robin Hood and these others to have this one unified interface. Like, imagine how cool it would be if I could like just pull up one app on my phone and I would have like, "All right, here's what my rental property is. Here's what my stocks is. Here's what my crypto accounts are across all onchain and exchanges. Here's what my commodities account is. Here's what my money market fund is. Just like everything all in one place, dude, it' be it'd be just so so so good.

>> Combine combine that. I'm I'mma build on that because we also I think there was there was a real piece whether it was a bill somewhere in the legislation. They're talking about allowing crypto to serve as collateral for loans and like mortgages, right? >> And so if you have this everything app, and frankly, I don't want to I want to remain crypto native. Maybe I shouldn't even say this, but Robin Hood is in the lead for this, but for this everything app, they're also I mean, congrats to them for getting added to the S&P. like they're in a position to offer stocks as a regulated brokerage, also to launch their own chain and offer, you know, crypto listings. Yeah.

>> And I then if they have both, it makes sense for them to be the ramp because they have both on their ledger. They have the the the crypto, they have the tokens on their chain and then they have, >> you know, stocks on their balance sheet in the regulated brokerage. And it's just an accounting function to to bridge those. Same way that layer zero does, same way it does circle does CCTP, right? It's just, you know, you just debit one column, credit the other. So, I think they're in they're in a really good position to capitalize on that on that gap in the market.

>> They they are probably in the best position to be kind of that everything app. And then if you have everything in one place and they can almost add that third piece of like a NEO bank, then they can start to offer credit based on all of the collateral that you have in your everything app property, money market, crypto, stocks, all of this is taken into account. They do some risk monitoring to assign it a risk score, assign some custom loan of value, and then issue a loan or a mortgage. And that I think that's the direction that we're headed. the banking traditional banking system is so cooked unless they partner with one of these everything one of these more progressive neo bank forward thinking technology finance

apps. Okay. Well, I think that that there's a world where uh the the the entirety of of finance is going to be on chain and we we will exist in that world. But it you know it starts with stable coins. It's been seven years, eight years since we're talking about stable coins. And you know, it's been a slow journey, but I think a lot of us I think it's ironic there's a lot of this push back against Circle and this USDC chain and Tempo, but really it's like this is all accelerating that like kind of what you're saying. Um, and yeah, >> I think uh it's important to separate

out where what people's incentives are and the tribes that they belong to. Um, and we're going to have uh Baji join us here in just a few moments to talk about RWA, which is another really significant piece to this because you could say RWA is like who cares about having some, you know, corporate private credit asset onchain. Like it's Bitcoin or nothing, right? It's the only hard money that exists. But we I think we have to be realists at the end of the day. And it's like, you know, you see kind of the revolution or the evolution of this.

>> And I think a lot of the Bitcoin maxis and some of like the people, the crypto anarchists that were in it for the cipher punk movement, >> Yeah. >> they got into it and they were looking at almost this revolutionary transition from >> the traditional financial system to the onchain financial system. The the cipher punk movement was very much libertarian. They want to they want to go flip a switch and cause this right this overhaul, right? But it just doesn't work like that in practice. Like that sounds I mean in theory that sounds fine, but in >> we spend so much time trying to convince them to use our coins and our rails instead of just being like, okay, why don't we just bring their world onto our world and start there first make them

come exact. This is not a revolution. It's an integration with the existing system. >> Yeah. And I think we got a lot with the Trojan horses. >> Yeah, we've got we've got Bajia, CEO of Centrifuge ready to come up. Uh RWA Summit is imminent and the tokenization and RWA mania is pretty much at full force. So um Baji, welcome to the show. Thanks for thanks for joining. >> Hello. So great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you for coming on. >> Congrats on RWA Summit. Uh I know it's coming up. Uh I think it's your first time meeting uh myself and Rob. would love to just have a quick intro about yourself, h how you got into the space and that type of thing and uh kind of what you guys are doing at Centrafuge and then yeah, we're stoked to hear

about RWA summit and and all the rest. >> Yeah, there really could be no better time to be hosting the RWBA summit. The number of calls and meetings we've had over the past two weeks of, oh [ __ ] we have to change the agenda so that we can talk about this and now we have to talk about this and now we have to talk about this and now we get like make space for NASDAQ to join. uh is really fun and really powerful because we're able to bring together all these folks who are taking different approaches. You know, is it like a a rap turk token versus bully on chain or there's so many different ways that we can address this mania as you call it. Um so we're bringing all those people together so that they can hash it out on stage and

talk about it live. So it's really really fun, really exciting. Uh, too bad you guys can't be there, but we'll host many more and there's always really interesting stuff to talk about, but >> we'll we'll see you at the next one. Yeah, go ahead. >> Sure. Um, so me, I'm Baji Illuminati. I'm the CEO of Centrifuge. Stepped into the role um earlier this year. Previously, I was on the go to market side. So came in to help institutionalize real world assets and bring the product that we've built and the work that we've done in a very small and narrow community on crypto to the mainstream. So uh came in early 2023 bare market not a lot of activity or

excitement or engagement around RWAS but pretty you know later that year is when we saw the inversion of rates shift and T bills became very interesting and then we started to see a poll and some product market fit around tokenized treasuries on chain and the relationship that uh tokenized treasuries and money market funds can have with stable coins. So really strong and interesting growth there. So the last three years, needless to say, have been very interesting for RWAs. And it's really exciting now to see the pieces falling into place from the institutional readiness to the onchain allocation and the

sophistication of treasury strategies to have RWAS as part of that portfolio to the regulatory clarity and the work that's happening to create and guidelines around how to do tokenized assets in a legal and compliant way. Um and then to all the builders that are jumping in and that are figuring out the infrastructure and the ecosystem and what needs to happen to actually put the key pieces in place for this industry. So centrifuge uh for those who don't know we were founded in 2017 so one of the first focused on RWAs have had quite a evolution of who we are and our journey that maps somewhat to the evolution of the industry. So trying

to figure out where that fit is. How do we match supply and demand? How can we um you know what where is there opportunity for tokenizing assets and where is there demand for actually investing in those assets on chain. So we've done started with more private credit, some more esoteric stuff, some real estate um and then more recently have been more focused on the fixed income business. So, we have a T-Bell product. We have a AAA rated CLLO product. Um, we're announcing or we already announced and we're going live with our S&P 500 products. So, bringing some equities more on the index side on chain. um and then have some private

credit and some other products in the pipeline. But really focus now on how are we building for specific use cases and specific demand drivers and opportunities that we're seeing on chain from day one. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I call this crypto's practical era in the sense that we and Rob and I were just kind of discussing this how we we we had all these different iterations of trying to bring different entities and financial infrastructure partners and players on chain a and a lot of it wasn't meeting them where they are. Like I think we we we we tried too hard to bring them into our world too aggressively without really meeting them where they are. And

I feel that stable coins had a massive impact on the perception of the space as well as you know a real you know you know set of of uh utilities that matter to you know traditional institutions uh high net worths etc. when you're kind of thinking about this meeting them where they are landscape for centrifugion for RWA and tokenization what has been you know the place where they are where have you met institutions uh large players and brought something to them that is really valuable I know that you just talked about your you know most of your product suite but I'm curious like what are something of the

things that uh you found to be most in demand and and Why? >> Yeah. So, one of the challenges we had with adoption in the early days was that when you think about the opportunity for RWBAs, there's two paths. There's right now a lot of these asset managers and institutions, they see an opportunity to raise assets on chain. So, there's all this liquidity that they can launch, tokenize a fund, and they can grow that fund from onchain capital sources. Um and that's evident with for instance our um AAA rated CLO fund JA that we have with Janice Henderson. It's top five largest ETFs in

the US um and it has about 25 billion AUM and they created a similar strategy with us onchain and they raised a billion dollars uh at launch. So in the scope of like large successful ETFs, the money that they're raising from onchain capital sources is meaningful and warrants like structure and strategy around that specific use case. So that's the immediate term and then the parallel track is the longer term which is how do we actually implement blockchain technology to make the systems better and faster and cheaper and how are we streamlining processes and replacing people with

smart contracts and how are we actually fundamentally improving the way that finance operates and that's the long term uh and the challenge the m the challenge we made in the early days was that we built for the long term and the institutions just weren't ready. They're like the the the don't have the people or the resources or the risk tolerance and the actually adopting and interacting with centrifuge directly was a big blocker to our growth in the early days. We had some early adopters. We did a really great um private credit project with block tower credit which was 220 million and got a lot of eyeballs in the early days. had support for Maker, but it's a needle in

a hay stack where you could get a cryptonative credit fund who believes in the vision and they're willing to, you know, eat some costs early on to be an early pioneer. So then what we did recently and I think how the industry has enabled a lot of adoption over the past six to 12 months is actually like adding a services layer that's more centralized on top of the decentralized infrastructure layer. So we have now an asset management arm which acts as this on-ramp for our institutions. So for Janice Henderson, rather than them having to build a team that understands blockchain and do the the onchain fund

management and distribution themselves, they work with us. They are a subadvisor on the fund and they're able to get exposure and start exploring and and building out their blockchain strategy at a rate that makes sense for them. So I think that's part of why we've been able to see this broader adoption from the institutions is that there's a recognition that in the early days uh centralization does have a use case and does provide value and a lot of these large institutions like they need to do due diligence with someone uh and they need to get comfortable with it on the legal side and they need to have a counterparty

that they're working with to do that. It it feels like we're at this inflection point where early on the institutions and traditional finance in general did they didn't see the value in coming onchain and it was sort of like we needed to prove them prove prove why we need to prove our industry and give them a reason that has flipped and now it feels like these institutions are basically they're they're scrambling and they're pushing each other out of the way to get into the industry and and so I'm curious now you know you guys have a number of of you know great speakers at at the RWA summit. I'm curious maybe you can just kind of shill like what are you most excited about and you know we were talking about before and and this is probably a good segue you know you mentioned NASDAQ is now coming on you

know these are people that we would have dreamed about you know a few years ago getting into the industry 2017 and and now they're coming in and they're talking about tokenizing stocks and essentially spinning up an entire blockchain based arm of their business. So maybe you could allude to some of the things that you're most excited about because RWAS is so general. Where do you see the mo most growth happening and and you know do you have those people coming to the RWA summit? Who are the people that you're most excited to host? >> Yeah, it's been really cool because we we did the first RWBA summit in September 2023 and then uh we have our flagship one in New York every year. So

just seeing the makeup of people from 2023 to 2024 to 2025 is a perfect indication of the makeup of the broader industry. So 2023 it was like all DeFi protocols and like really really struggling to get any TRDI folks in the room. There was one or two but they were like the skeptics in the room. Last year we started to see more of a healthy balance but it was still like very much early adopters. Now it's there's like a broad a greater shift towards stratifi than there is towards defi. So now the more work has been outbound to like the right defy protocols that we want to ensure are in

the room. Um and then also we had a much easier time getting like uh you know we have the SEC represented and getting more regulatory perspectives as part of the conversation. So that's a good anecdotal proof point of the maturity of the industry is just based on the makeup that we're seeing of the folks in the room. Some of the conversations that are going to be really interesting um we have a debate with Calidora from uh Aium and Carlos from Securitize talking about per tokenization. So she's all about like you don't actually need to tokenize the asset and have it be on chain. You just need to have a feed to it offchain. He's

all about of course like it needs to be on chain. Everything should be on chain. So we're trying to create this healthy tension between smart folks who are solving similar problems in different ways and give them the stage to actually hash it out. Um similar vein is Lesner, Robert Lesner is on stage with Robin Hood and they're talking about their respective approaches to how they're bringing tokenized equities on chain. Um we have a lawyer panel talking about decentralization. So like does is decentralization still important for crypto projects especially in this intersection of institutional and onchain.

Uh we have the Winkle Boss brothers who are joining to talk about what they're doing with Gemini. Um so it's actually like yeah it's pretty it's there's a lot of con content which I personally am really excited to sit down and listen to because I want to hear this debate on stage. Um so everything and then of course we have like all the asset managers who are very early adopters. We have Christine from Apollo and we have Roger from Franklin Templeton and we have um Janice Henderson and doing like a a segment on just traditional asset management, how you're thinking about bringing funds on chain and then a specific segment on the ETF business. So from our perspective, we have a very strong leadership team who

has a background in ETFs and our tech really supports funds and indices. So we believe the tokenization industry is like the next incredible evolution of the ETF industry. So have a couple folks who built the ETF industry who can speak specifically to that. So it's always been important for us to bring every you know prospective perspective whether or not they agree with centrifuge and the way that we view the opportunity together and have this be a place where we can really figure out what's broken like solve things have the real conversations that are needed to actually move the industry forward.

>> I did not hear any DAT conversations. No Treasury company. We we have one. >> So that's our >> table. >> That's our macro panel, which is DATs and M&As. >> Nice. >> Um and then we've got a Bitcoin panel. We're actually hitting on all the major topics, I think. But like I said, like things are changing so quickly. It's >> Yeah, we don't have a um we actually do have a couple stable coin panels. So we have Agora talking. Um so we don't have Agora against Paxos and we don't have Hyperlid, but it's fine.

We've we you can just refer people to our previous couple days. We've done hyperlquid USDH special marathons the last few days. >> There you go. There you go. >> Um I'm I'm also curious to get your perspective on something that we we were chatting about just as as we were bringing you up on the stream, which is kind of this this like conf conflict or contradiction in in crypto culture. you know, you you've been around, you know, a while in the space and so you've kind of seen like this uh this cipher punk attitude in in the traditional or I guess, you know, not the traditional space, but the deeper DeFi protocols that have been around a long time, but then you're also going out and you're working on behalf of the space to bring in some of the

largest financial institutions that that you know are are here. And so, how do you balance this contrast? like do you ever find yourself at odds with kind of like a internal ideology or or generally how do you think about bringing some of these people into the space and how do you describe this world of anonymous characters and and dogs and cats that are speaking on the timeline and Andy's a penguin on the timeline and like these are people with like respected opinions. How do you how do you explain this to the traditional financial world? I think luckily the traditional financial world there's still a intrigue around crypto. So they're not trying to adopt this new

technology because I mean of course the business economics need to make sense but it's it's still early adopter stage and they still think it's cool. you have to be a little crazy and a little like um you know creative to wrap your head around what crypto is and the opportunity at large. So we're still an early adopter enough days where like and and we always do this at RWA Summit like we had boys club who did a live podcast recording like we want to bring in the cool crypto culture because you know Wall Street's can get kind of boring and like it's fun to have fun. So that's the very very simple cultural you know divide at this time but the you

know more longer term view on it is that there's there is still that tension and there will always be that tension. We've found in our depth in our work on the DeFi side that there is friction with some protocols and some folks that just do not believe in the value of RBAS and they do not want institutions come on chain and that will just change >> what we believe the ideology around crypto. Even what I said at the very beginning where like a lot of these institutions need a centralized entity uh in order to get comfortable with the due diligence and the onboarding.

Um I think what we will strive to align on as an industry more broadly is what needs to be to still like reach our potential. So needs to be public blockchains needs to be like interoperable systems that all talk to each other. We need to be able to unlock the scale of what's possible of working in an open source and open infrastructure environment for it to make sense for this to be on blockchain. So I think to the extent at least for us that we've ensured that that is core to our ethos and we work with we co-authored some token st some ERC token standards that we believe are needed for

RWA to reach real scale on chain. So we're contributing actively to the onchain DeFi economy, building in an opensource environment and working only on public blockchains and having that be a core part of our ethos and the conversations we're having on the institutional side because I think it just takes a lot of education on both sides and a recognition that we are building something that can be much more powerful than what we currently have.

It's not just slight incremental improvements or you know a ledger layer underneath what we currently have. It's a fundamental leap steps. >> Yeah, I think that is the main push back >> for RWAs is like oh okay what's the value of just you know making a ledger uh you know annotation that there is a certain asset that is on chain. I think a lot of the value truly comes from natively issuing these assets on chain and I think that's where we're slowly slowly getting to. >> Yeah. And there's cool steps like the um A's launch of Horizon is a really good path where a issuer tokenizes an asset immediately they can be used for to

borrow against in Horizon. So even that is a simple thing that's not that complicated or you know new for DeFi primitives but it is very exciting for a lot of the tokenized assets that we're bringing on chain. So there are pieces that we already have in place that are already better than the current offchain system. But it is interesting the NASDAQ news the positioning um that they have around it is really on um like it's very very much abstracted so that um someone can just choose if they want the settlement to be a tokenized settlement and if they want that to happen immediately. So in cases like that um if you think about the longer term the end

user they don't know the difference of tokenization being the technology under the hood. Mhm. >> So I think there's a there is this immediate incremental improvement from fintech that gets us closer in the direction and then as long as we're building in a way that can be can grow and adapt and become more composable over time then we can ensure that we're taking the steps in the right direction and just building in the way that we'll actually see broader adoption and usage as we build.

You know, I I I think you're spot on and and I think that there's a race going on for tokenization. It's really a mania. It feels like and I put a tweet that was like uh tokenization is like memecoins for tradi. Uh and maybe it's a bit too on the nose, but you know, I think it's uh I think it's really happening right now. And there's a lot of brands that are, you know, fighting for this, if you will, or at least or at least contributing to growing the pie, depending on how you look at it. And so when it comes to centrifuges strategy and specifically with RWA summit, I'm curious like what your expectation of ROI is of hosting a major event from a brand perspective like each year what do you what do you you know quantitatively

or qualitatively looking to you know achieve by putting all this effort into hosting an amazing event? It is really not an easy job. you know, what is the benefit for Centrifuge and for the entire RWA community for for you guys put putting this entire event on each year? >> It is not an easy job and shout out to our team. We have one person uh on our events team who does it all. She's incredible. Um the benefit in 2023 was, you know, nobody knows about RBAS. It's this fringe idea. We need to institutionalize it. we like circles circle cares and coinbased cares and centrifuge cares and a cares and like let's bring all these people together

from all these different perspectives and let's make this a thing. Um as we've evolved the benefits are that like we are helping shape the key narratives that are driving the adoption of the technology. Um so being a part of those conversations is very important to us. having access to these folks that we wouldn't probably like wouldn't have in the past been able to get access to because they come in via the speaker channel. Um, and then we're connected with them and we can start chatting together. So, for me personally, I wasn't in crypto before this. So, I had a lot of work to do to build my network from the early days and

that was a huge opportunity because I was able to get with all the like key founders who are speaking on stage at this event. um and build that way. All that being said, it is a lot of work and we actually announced a couple months ago that we are passing it off, passing the torch to somebody named Foster, right? So he was the president of Coindesk. Uh he did all the consensus events, scaled it, was there through the acquisition, has an incredible background, knows the events business inside and out. So he is taking over RWA Summit from here on out. We'll still be very involved and will help shape the programming, the narrative, the speakers, but recognize that for it

to continue to grow, we need to have dedicated focus on it. >> Very cool. Uh, congrats on that because handing off the torch and scaling something even zero to one and then passing it off for someone to uh, take from one to 100 is, you know, you see your you see your kid kind of grow up and go go off to college and become, you know, bigger and better, which is really really cool. >> I know. And as we get closer to the event and as it gets more and more exciting, I'm like, don't go. >> But will it still be like Centrifuge's like like key partner or like how are you guys going to organize that or is it just completely passing it off? Yeah. So we centrifuge in the past has been the host. Uh going forward will be the sponsor. So we we really and from the

very beginning we have wanted it to be fully uh agnostic. We want to invite all of our competitors like Superstate was the title sponsor last year. We want all the people that are building to be there. So we never really viewed it as a centrifuge event. We viewed it as an industry event. So, I think like uh attendance-wise and centrifuge brand awareness wise won't be that significantly different from us from what we've had in the past. Um but we'll still of course be very involved because we love it and it's a really good way to get the right people together.

>> Yeah. Um I I don't want to take the spotlight off of RWA Summit, but I am curious because I saw you were at the All-In Summit and we were talking about some of the NASDAQ news. What What was your impression of that event? what was what were some of the takeaways and generally again this conversion or convergence of a lot of the emerging technologies AI policy crypto are all coming together so just general takeaways of what stuck out there >> it was incredible to see and by the way I love having all in summit and RWA summit in the same category so that's okay um it was incredible to see how many crypto sponsors were there so the headline sponsor was Salana OKX was there. Circle was there. Uh, a couple

others were there. I think like maybe half the sponsors were crypto folks. I was talking to the Salana team and a big focus from theirs is like they want to break out of the being viewed as a successful crypto company and start being viewed as a successful >> finance company. So, a big part of that is like looking at how quickly they got to their key milestones and comparing that to other fintech companies, not comparing that to other crypto companies. So, just reframing how they think about themselves and how they view their success. Um, and then getting in front of other audiences who are more focused on tech more broadly. So, I think it makes a lot of sense. I do love

as you mentioned the contrast of all key topics. So I only sat in for a couple sessions but it was humane talking about AI and then it was uh Tuli talking about crypto and then it was the Dartmouth president talking about education. So it it really does bring to the forefront all the key areas that are top of mind for people and then the format of like just very conversational makes it feel like you're learning something that's you know like a conversation that would be happening in a office with friends not a pitch presentation.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean it it seems it seems pretty strategic how much David Sachs has gotten involved with the uh you know administration. I think he sold all of his crypto as a result of it but you know his ties to Salana and then all you know that big Salana DAT was announced. It's just it's very strategic marketing uh you know operation over there to get into new category new audiences. >> Oh yeah. David Saxs wasn't on stage for tolli though. Um, >> so that was I think a little too close.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, Baji, we appreciate your time. Looking forward to seeing all of the amazing things that come out of RWA Summit. Hopefully you guys post some talks, post some videos, can stream it or something. Uh, bombed out. We're not going to be able to make it, but uh, a lot of conferencing, a lot of stuff going on in the space right now. >> We'll see you at the next one. >> We'll see you at the next one. Yeah. For anyone who's curious, we do post all of the videos on YouTube. So all the sessions will be available. >> And where can they find more about Centrifuge and RWA Summit in general? >> Centrifuge is across all social platforms. And then centrifuge.io and RWA summit is uh same across all socials and RWA summit.

>> Beautiful. >> We have I think we have like 20 tickets left. So uh >> limited time only. body wants to apply, there's still space. >> Hit them while they last. >> Hit them while they last. >> Thanks so much for having me, guys. Really nice to meet you both and great to chat. >> Yeah, you as well. Best of luck next week. I know it's going to be fun and busy, but you you guys got this down. So enjoy. >> We'll we'll have you on afterwards and we can hear hear about how it went. >> Yeah, love that idea. Sounds good. >> Cool. See you next time. >> Bye, Baji. Nice to meet you. Alrighty.

Bing, bang, boom. RWA's baby >> huge I guess it is interesting what she mentioned about Salana thinking about themselves as a finance company you see that with some of the successful crypto companies Poly Market KHI they're trying to expand beyond just crypto Robin Hood obviously started off that way but now getting into crypto and it's like well these are two very uh very close market segments >> so there's teams that are trying to capitalize on both they start from one end to try to get to the other and vice versa.

>> Dude, I think uh RWA Summit was a big miss for us. We should have went we should we should go, >> but it is what it is, I suppose. >> Is what it is, sir. >> Yeah, we'll we'll see. We'll see. Hey, it's not too late yet. Who knows? Who knows what's gonna happen? >> There you go, boss man. Well, yeah. Looks like Charlie Kirk is dead. I just am in just a wild headsp space myself. Uh, next guest is uh from Butter and uh last one for today.

>> Yeah, we'll keep this one pretty tight. What is butter? >> Uh, my understanding of butter is essentially like the future on chain which was >> What does that even mean? Yeah, we can hear you. >> What is a futurearch future archy? >> I think so. If we can set them up. Um I mean >> theoretical form of governance where elected officials set goals and define measures of national well-being and prediction markets are then used to determine which policies are like most likely to choose these achieve these goals. This was >> future use knowledge of the crowd as

revealed through prediction markets to choose policy. This was like the Robin Hansen special. No. >> Yeah. And and this was the original idea of prediction markets. So Robin Hansen put together this idea of future where people could basically put their money where their mouth is with their votes. um that turned into prediction markets where if you believe in something will happen uh then we will uh have a more efficient outcome >> and if uh you see this happen and Robin Hansen originally proposed this idea with companies like >> if you are going if you're in a position you have to say choose a new CEO >> well then let's put up a market in which

the stakeholders holders can vote on how much money they think uh the new CEO will bring, right? And it's >> like to the company. >> To the company. Yeah. And so you have all these potential CEOs, >> put them in a bucket, >> and then you vote on which one's going to bring them how much money each of them will bring. >> Obviously, the one who is thought to bring the most money is the best CEO. And then you have not just a prediction market on who should be the CEO, but you also have a projection on how much people like how much you think that the new CEO is going to bring the company.

And so my understanding of what the butter guys are doing is they're bringing this onchain and they're saying not just prediction markets like who for instance you know call sheep poly market have both brought up who's going to win the USDH ticker >> but I think what butter is doing we're going to hear more about it if we can get vaugh on the show is they're saying how much like economic output is each USDH proposer going to And then you can say if you're hyperl liquid, you can say, "Okay, well that's how much we can expect in economic activity." And then like Robin Hansen talks about some of the domino effects of this. And I'm sure Van can can describe it better, but it's it's a lot

more robust than just saying, "Yeah, this is who we'd like or this is who we think is the best." you get some accurate projection of output along with your prediction because people are putting their money where their mouth is. They're going to try to vote accurately. >> Yeah, of course. >> And then you can use that as you know if you want to project earnings. Robin Hansen talked a lot about this. We had him on. Um you also have uh the opportunity to project like it's funny because we had Pendle, right? And if you had principal tokens, yield tokens.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Then you can start to project how much yield you would anticipate to bring into a protocol. So I I could totally imagine Pendle bringing something like this where they start to think like how much yield do we anticipate bringing into the protocol and then they sell that off and then maybe there's, you know, kind of positive or negative flows based on that. It's a market you can trade it. But I don't know enough to really comment on this. our boy uh Vaughan aka Not Your Handle is gonna is going to come on and teach us about uh about these markets and specifically about the USDH market. So, let's get him up. The last guest of today's stream.

>> Yeah. >> And we'll we'll finish strong. Hey, hey, Van, just give us one sec. Let's get Let's get Vaughn up on the screen and uh and start. This will be also our probably our last uh our last session before the USDH Yeah. >> uh vote, which I think is going to be particularly interesting. Maybe we we'll revisit the uh the validator dashboard. >> Uh let's see. Let's make sure we can get him up. Yeah, I think that vote's going to end sometime in the next couple of hours.

uh or sometime relatively soon. There's Von. Von, welcome to the show, man. >> Hey guys, happy to be here. >> Yeah, happy to host you. Welcome. Um it's been a minute. Uh but prediction markets have absolutely blown up since we've last spoke. >> Uh I think actually it is your first time on the show even though we've had conversations behind the scenes. So maybe you can introduce yourself and introduce Butter for uh anyone who is unfamiliar. >> Yeah, of course. So I'm I'm not your handle, also known as Vaughn, one of the co-founders of Butter. Um, we've been in the crypto space now for for quite a while. I think we did our first onchain experiment with uh decision- making with Ave backing like 2022. Um, since then we've just been exploring the kind of

design space around like onchain decision- making. Um, and then we got really excited about futarch in decision markets um about a year and a half ago and um have since been been rolling those out with some of the kind of largest DeFi and L2 ecosystems in the space. So um and but is really here to try and I guess like take markets and really turn them into something that any individual or any company on the planet can just wield to pull information out of the world. What's going on um anywhere in the world? I want an unbiased picture of the current state of the world at any point in time. Markets are great at that. It's what they do all the time. And the second thing is to pull um kind of probability distributions of future states of the world. So if I do this thing, what's

likely to happen? what's going to happen over here with this particular like strategic um initiative that we care about. Um I'd like to know what's going to happen there and then I can run markets to try and like pull that information out of the world. So that's that's really what we're doing at butter and um and we think it's particularly relevant for what's going on in the hyper liquid community at the moment. >> Yeah, 100%. It's pretty interesting to think about prediction markets as like parallel realities or par like a parallel universe that's yet to explore. you can draw information from it and then apply that to your current moment to think like okay well what if we go here what if we go there and kind of survey these different paths and so you're you're doing this onchain before we get to the hyperlquid market could

you just maybe describe I think you guys had a pretty significant proposal with unis swap kind of like what what was the idea there how did that turn out and then you know we'll we'll obviously talk about what's going on with the USDH market on hyperlquid >> yeah let's do it so I guess a good place to start is uh we have these kind organizations that we've been I guess testing over the past it's just been ages now um kind of like a decade um which are on chain decentralized and we need a way of making collective decisions and the way that we've been doing it so far is with like onchain voting and people have long found that to be kind of like underwhelming and unsatisfactory for loads of reasons and

we can we can go through those but I think the the question is like are there better ways of kind of combining signal from lots of people And um and obviously we we know that um we have uh Mr. Hansen, Robin Hansen, who came up with an idea called Futaki a very long time ago, actually before 2000. It's incredible that it's been that long. And actually it was the it was the buzzword of the year in 2008. Um yeah, really only now we're starting to see actual like live implementations. Um and the idea is very simple. It's using markets to or prediction markets to predict the impact of decisions before we make them.

and then using the actual predictions themselves to then make the decision. Um and for unis swap obviously again one of the first dows um really built around making grants at the very beginning and then has kind of evolved into a dowo with loads of responsibilities including things like the fee switch. Um, one of the things they do really well is obviously distribute grants, fund builders in the ecosystem, um, and and so on and now obviously funding at Uni Chain. And what we started to, um, speak to the team over there at the foundation about is, um, how they actually fund growth on Uni Chain. And historically, they were just like, you know, ad hoc picking, um, different teams, funding them, and trying to like grow, you know, grow the ecosystem. But when you're

doing that with like a DAO and delegates and voting, it's kind of difficult to do. and obviously has some some kind of like gotchas that they that they really wanted to try and figure out if there's a way to avoid. And so the idea was can we use decision market to we call them conditional funding markets to allocate some funds. And so we ran a fairly fairly simple uh vote where we took um four lending protocols. So it was Venus, Compound, Moro and Oiler and we had these markets. We had uh anybody who came to the market try and estimate what their TVL would be on Uni Chain in a month's time if they received $100,000.

So we ran that for about 5 days. Um we had about $70,000 of volume over that period and we produced some some estimates and we use those estimates to give the money out and you know Moro received the the money. um and they ran for a month after that deploying the capital and produced a fairly significant um leap actually in in TVL over that time period. So again like the markets worked really well. People were very accurate. All the traders who are in those markets have skin in the game. You know they're trying to maximize their return. Um and so yeah, it was incredible to see it worked incredibly well. Um and now we're obviously exploring the what you can apply this technology to.

What um what do you think about like the evolution of Dows these days? Because they get kind of a bad rap. Decentralized governance is kind of fallen out of favor in favor of you know four validator set on hyperlid which we're going to we're going to get to the US market in a minute. But like h how how have you seen some of these Dows progress and and have they devolved? Are they just out of favor now? What do you think is is kind of the the trajectory of the DAO governance model long term? >> Yeah. Well, I I guess you probably want to start with like why Dows exist. Um, and I mean as I I like to say I did something called like Dow surfing. So, I

just spent a bunch of time in Dows like just browsing the things they were doing, why they were doing them, trying to kind of build a model for them. And it feels like really they're trying to do four things. One, they're trying to figure out how to upgrade the protocol that they manage, if they manage a protocol. They're trying to do policy updates, so just kind of decide how they actually make decisions or how they run things. They're also trying to allocate capital normally. Um, and and sometimes they're also trying to change parameters like Ave for example, change risk parameters, but you don't necessarily need a Dow to do all of those things. Not all the time. We see this in um like say like Ethereum. Ethereum doesn't need a DAO to decide how to update Ethereum.

But again, Ethereum is Ethereum's like upgrade to decentralized in another way because valid validators decide right what you know what updates to to accept and and so I guess there there's always been this tension about what exactly governance is for and I think that there's two ways of looking at it. One is governance is there because you actually do need a way to decentralize the upgrades of that system. For some teams this is like fundamental. They they if if they didn't have a way of decentralizing that no one would trust them. no one would use the protocol and that's a significant component but it's not all of it. You don't need all of it.

Um the other thing is obviously um people want to build tokens to bring the community together and that was fairly difficult to do in a centralized way and I think it's the fact that that's changing or potentially changing that's really changing the calculus for lots of founders and people building and people deploying capital into these into these protocols. Um you know if you're not forced to do it for any particular reason you don't necessarily have to. Um, so yeah, so I think that's what's really changing is like the decentralized government governance is getting kind of scoped down and it's really just becoming the like the things you actually need to do on chain, the things you actually need to decentralize, which honestly um I think is a good thing. I think it's it's going to allow us to focus on the things that we actually need to improve and not kind

of play this game about why we need to improve things and building kind of ideas around why we need to improve things around decentralized governance when actually there's just a few things we need to do really really well and we need to progress on those things. So yeah, I think I think it's a weird it's a weird space um for DGAV. One thing I would add is is I think some of the clarity in the US about what constitutes decentralized under the rules of say um clarity should mean that actually decentralization has to be baked in, right? There's like a sufficient amount of decentralization. Um the only difference is that we're not deciding what it is. It's kind of being told to us. So I'm I'm kind of interesting to see what happens when like there's a like legal definition of decentralized that we all have to adhere to. H

um people were saying that just on the n like what you're describing is there's a lot of fluff in the Dow space and people were saying the hyperlquid vote is like why doesn't the hyperlquid team just pick you know why why do we why are we going through the song and dance about the hyperlquid governance program at all you know and people were even saying that was rigged to begin so >> yeah was saying that it was it was always going to be native markets who are going to win but we'll see >> we'll see there's some there's some benefit to like an RFP process Right. So this is kind of an RFP process in some ways. Then the question is then who get so RFP processes are good. They're like auctions, right? So you're auctioning off the right to do something. So what that gives you is an opportunity to

better allocate the resources. And actually this is where decentralized decision-m is great because it's going to pull information from the system and as people compete public they're kind of improving their their offers, right? So maybe I would take 20%, but you know, if I now in a fight for margin, I'm going to take nothing or maybe I'll even give you some money to win the contract, right? So I think that's overall like positive for the hyperlquid and the hyperlquid ecosystem. Um on on kind of this this suggestion that it's rigged. Um it's tough. I think when you're making decisions, sometimes you're making decisions because of like a single variable like you're just trying to maximize your revenue, right? Or maximize profits or reduce costs. But sometimes there's loads of things,

right? There's there's a ton of things you're trying to optimize for. Um, and those aren't entirely obvious. So, I'm I'm kind of I mean, I'm not behind the scenes, but it seems unlikely that the whole game was rigged. Um, because ultimately that would that would mean there was no real benefit for the people who are conducting or deciding to get out the vote. I think there's genuine benefit in running it. Um, but it remains to be seen, right? I think we'll see what happens towards like throughout this vote. Um, and I think having the prediction markets running alongside has been really useful, right? Because it's actually giving you there's someone there with skin in the game who's trying to win a win a a bet basically trying to tell you what they think is going to happen. And so as proposals have come out, you're seeing odds change. Um, I

think it's been absolutely fascinating having these things run alongside one another because I think it is showing you maybe some where some of the theater is. And in in Hib's claim that it was rigged, I think he claimed, you know, he he was pointing to the odds on on one of the prediction market venues that Athena originally started out, but then once people saw that validators had already started signaling native markets, it flipped. Athena dropped, their probability was was far below native markets. >> And so I'm I'm now curious about the USDH proposal on the butter money side. How have you guys structured the market? Because in my imagination like if you structure the market in such a way you could say this these guys are going to bring this much

volume or this much economic activity to to hyperlquid and you could see if that market aligns with the outcome. Say who do they eventually think is going to win. You know if if one prediction market predicts that native markets is only going to bring you know 100 million of economic activity. say, you know, Paxos is going to bring 500 million, but Native Markets is still predicted to be the outcome winner. Something's not adding up, right? So, so how have you structured the USDH uh decision market on butter and and how are you like what what is the result of that market so far? Is it lining up with what you see on some of the trackers and these other markets? Yeah. So we I mean we have the market's not live yet. So it will be

live soon. But the um the basic idea of a decision market um is is different to a prediction market. So what polymok and calcium are predicting is what the outcome will be and obviously a decision market is trying to produce an outcome. Now there is a validator vote happening. So there is no decision market that's going to produce the outcome. But what we can use is we can use the basic construct of a decision market which is again trying to forecast the impact and then use that >> right to kind of provide intelligence to or kind of like complimentary information to the decision. And so the question is what are the factors that are going into the decision and it's actually it's quite complex. You could probably say something like right now

it's to do with the validators incentives. So if you could like look at all the validities, speak to them and see like what's what's best for them, you would get a complex picture of exactly what they prefer. Some of them will prefer things because, you know, they're part of the hyperlid ecosystem and they have like long-term alignment and they're looking for someone who's just long-term aligned or someone they personally know, something like that. And decision markets don't care about any of that. They they are designed to give you an answer. So you would say something like, and here's the the two things we've been looking at. is um let's say that we did pick Athena, Paxos, whoever.

What would the impact be on say the share of USDH on Hyperlid? Just looking at the TV. So I think there's a there's a DeFi llama metric called USDC dominance on Hyperlquid. I think it's like 95% right now. So the question would be as you add this like USDH, you you'd want to see volume switch over, right? Like if it didn't switch over, it's kind of pointless. So for some people that's could be what they're looking at. So we could run a market on that. So this is one of the markets that we've been um we've been scoping. And so what you would see is a distribution of like what do what does everybody think will happen? And so what might happen is you'd see like native markets might be really low on this, right? Or they might be really really high. But at the moment

there's this kind of like fog of the decision-m where none of us really know what's driving validators to pick, right? And the decision markets would kind of we're actually calling them shadow markets because they shadow the decision. But that shadow market would actually create this like clarity around okay this is actually what people think in the same way that the prediction markets are showing you what people expect to happen or who's going to make that decision. But the decision the prediction markets today are not telling you why they think that like native markets is going to win. They're just telling you that they think it's going to win. Um the second thing we've been looking at is uh just the impact on on like high price. You should expect that if people believe that this any of these providers are a net benefit to the

ecosystem that they're probably going to produce more cash flows. I mean some of them literally are saying they're going to produce cash flows right there's what 200 and something million that's going to circle right now and they're saying we're going to take some of that capture it and bring it back to the ecosystem in the form of buybacks which should directly contribute to hype price and if there's any differentiation in that you should see that turn up in uh in this prediction right so again like the thing I want to kind of put in everyone's head is you could still run a validator vote right that could be the thing you want to do but you might want to have these public shadow markets running alongside it that are telling you each of these things that could be important to making a good decision. Let's have the world

forecast it and then let's use that as an input to the decision. And I think that if we did have that right running right now, which obviously we're we should have live shortly, um it would really change the dynamics around how we make onchain decisions or how we make any kind of public governance decision. Um because the numbers wouldn't lie. You'd see it. And actually, if you saw that native markets wasn't actually going to, as you said, produce any real uplift in high price relative to the others and wasn't really going to drive much more volume or capture more volume, you would have to ask, well, you would know that there's something else driving that decision, right?

>> Got it. Yeah. And so I think uh so so just to get this straight, you're you're uh so the butter markets aren't live yet because as I as I am looking at it, the uh proposal deadline, you know, the the deadline for these USDH issuers to submit their proposals that ends today, >> but validator commitments start tomorrow and then they have four days to vote. So the voting uh for the validators to signal is actually going to end on the 14th. So will you have these markets live and and try to start collecting intelligence from these shadow markets once the uh the commitment window is open?

>> Exactly. Yeah. So that's the plan. They're they're designed to go live when I mean I think I mean voting has already started. I think it was 10 a.m. UTC >> um that there were no no more proposals I think and a few more proposals came in towards the end and there was like Basty and a few others. >> Now we have this um period now where voting has started but there's kind of two components of that. there's the validators signaling and then there's hype holders delegating to validators. So that's going to happen over the next um few days until Sunday. And so we will provide these markets that will help kind of inform some of those decisions.

>> Got it. >> Yeah. Yeah. If if only this kind of concept was more commonplace of like actually getting to understand how the real value of a certain outcome can be like basically gambled on. people don't really people aren't really I mean people are seeing the the like the nitty-gritty of the proposals but they're not really thinking I don't think that much uh that deeply about the the direct value and then how you could actually kind of speculate on on that. So it's definitely unique. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think you know what's really interesting? I think if you if you look at price, right? So, um when the original idea was announced, the price of hype went up. Um and so when people like believe something is going

to be good in general, maybe they're not sure exactly why. Um they might go and buy buy something or buy buy an asset because they think it's undervalued relative to this change. Um but it doesn't everybody has a different idea about what contributes to price, right? So there's loads of factors that they could care about or anyone else could care about. And so the question is always going to be which of those ones are the most important? How would you weight them? So some people might think that doesn't really matter if we acquire a whole bunch more USDC USD um or stable coin share for USDH or that we're going to be driving in a whole bunch of like new yield right um from the from treasuries into the ecosystem because that's kind of table stakes. So

everybody's going to do that. it doesn't matter. So the question is going to be what's the actual differentiator between those, right? And I guess that's what you're trying to figure out like what's the differentiator? What's like the most important thing? Um so yeah, I agree. I think it would be it would be really great if culturally crypto and like the general economy um got better at trying to kind of quantify those thoughts before making those decisions. Now I would say there's there are lots of teams who already use markets in this way and the best example I have of that is like the the Fed, right? The Fed takes inputs from like interest rate derivatives um and uses them as inputs to decision-m. So the Fed is kind of constantly like scanning the horizon like surveying the the the world

and the world is telling them like here's what we think inflation is going to be and it's using that to kind of adjust. And so yeah, if we had that in kind of enterprise or um institutional or even just like crypto decision-m that'd be incredible. I think it's just so far it's been difficult to do, right? That's what we're doing. We're trying to make it easy to do. >> Awesome. Well, Von, thanks for coming on, man. It's been it's been an absolute pleasure and I think this is a good wrap on the hyperlquid USDH process as we've seen it so far. And I I am curious to take a look once those markets are live and vote and and market, you know, activity starts to trickle in, how people start to anticipate and project out what volume they can expect from each of these proposals. Um, where can

people find the markets once they do go live? How can people get involved uh with butter and and more specifically this USDH market? >> Absolutely. So, we're going to be announcing everything on our on our x.com. Sounds weird to say x on our Twitter. It's just Buttery GG. It stands for Buttery Good Games. Don't ask why. And um and then also our our website is app.but.markets. So, you can find all the markets there. >> Beautiful. >> Awesome. All right. Thanks, Von. Cheers. Thank you, Von. Cheers. Cheers, man. See you next time. Alrighty, guys. Great stream today, Rob.

Lots going on in the world. Lots going on in the markets. Got a lot to do to get this rebrand out. See you guys soon. Thanks so much, boys and girls. It's getting It's getting sunny over there. See you guys later. See you tomorrow.