The Rollup TV: AI x Crypto, 0G, CMS Holdings

Transcript

[Music] Hey, hey hey. [Applause] Heat. Heat. N. [Music] Welcome back to the Rollup TV. Today is

Monday, September 22nd. Happy Monday. It is the end of summer. Summer is now over. If you've been paying attention to you, if you're in the northern hemisphere, summer's over. It is time to be in the winter. Robbie had or the fall. Robbie has a taking a flight to Korea. So, he is not going to join us today. He is going to join us for the rest of the week though. So, stay tuned because he will be joining us. Um, but just not today. I think he just got in and uh he's a little bit tired. So, we have a fun stream today. A good lineup. We've got the Giza and Pendle team together uh

to talk about what they're doing with the you know their kind of AI yield farming AI defi based agent uh frameworks that they've built out. Then we have Michael the CEO of Zeroravity which is going to be a spicy one. Guys, I've got my coffee ready. They've just launched their token. It's trading at six billion. They've just launched a DAT before the token even went live and people are not happy about it. They're they have questions. They're wondering what's going on. We our fund actually invested in OG like freaking two years ago and had and have watched them kind of grow and they've done

different uh directions and Michael's kind of steered the ship and now this is where they've settled. So interesting to talk to talk to Michael. Then we've got the one and only Dan from CMS who's a good friend of the show uh and a you know a recurring guest since our 2020 era. So guys, it should be a fun show today. Uh I'm pretty stoked on it. >> Um and yeah, we have an amazing lineup. >> So while we're looking at and waiting for our guests to come, the market has chosen to uh screw us and dump overnight. my chick, >> which is funny because it's always the low liquidity Sunday people, you know, get wrecked on. And lo and behold, we

had one of the biggest liquidation events of uh the entire I mean since 2023, I believe, across Bitcoin or across ETH and Soul. I think Bitcoin since June is what I read on Twitter. And so, yeah, I mean, look, I don't know what to tell you guys. If you're using leverage, don't use leverage. if you're if you have no idea what you're doing, uh, don't freaking, you know, don't do it and just guys, I mean, hold it together, you know. So, I mean, I'm a little bit worried, but what what was kind of annoying um is that there was this competition over the weekend for with

Hyperlid that led Hyperlid to just to get dumped on while the rest of the market kind of held up just fine because uh there was this Aster coin launch and there was this other freaking coin launch and everyone was all fired up about it. It's just kind of silly. So guys, the markets just opened now. Um, stoked on it. And yeah, um, again, excited to have our first set of guests up, which is going to be rank from Giza and our guy, right side from Pendle, Mr.

Right Side. Right side only. Um, yeah, should be good. Zero gravity token launch. Big freaking day for the community. launched that 6 billion $6 billion FTV for zero gravity. Pretty insane. Um and yeah, guys, here's where we are. We're back on the rollup TV. We got another amazing week. Last week was insane. Um it was insane. It was an absolute treat to be on the stream. We had Jeremy Aair. We had um freaking CMS. We had Who else did we have? We had, man, we had so many good ones. We had the entire Ethereum foundation. Um,

we had just tons of great teams. Um, we had other investors. We had Dan from Nason. We had the Panta guys. We had um who else do we have? We just had such a great lineup last freaking week. I really thoroughly enjoyed it. And I'm glad to be here. Glad to be a part of this. Glad to be a part of the role of TV. We had we we we pushed some of the technical stuff next week. This week we have another amazing slate of guests.

We're going to be streaming in the morning this week, guys. So, um that's going to be the reality. Robbie's phoning in from uh Korea. He's going to be at like a co-work space, 247 co-work. We're getting him set up there. And then uh we're we're going to have myself here from Florida. Um we I'll be calling in on the stream starting, you know, around this time, 9:00 a.m.ish. And yeah, really looking forward to our first set of guests. Again, we've got the Giza guys, we've got the Pendle guys, and we've got the OG guys as our first set of guests today. So looking forward to it. Should be a fun stream. And yeah,

we're going to get those guests up in a second and get them in when they are ready. Um, and yeah, just sharing that with them, making sure they get up and active. Man, what else happened over the weekend, guys? A ton of Look, I put out a tweet that was like, don't chase the beta token in crypto. Like, never chase the beta version of the of the token. I was talking about Aster Hype. I've or I put out a tweet about hyperlquid today. Aster is like hype but for people who haven't lost their virginity. That one was actually taken from a friend in a group chat. I think it's true. You know, I think that buying the beta token is just an easy way to get wrecked. I think

that's why the market's dumping. Although Aster's pumping. Aster's at a $1.70. It's up 17% today. Hype's down. So, I look I don't know what to tell you guys. >> I really don't know what to tell you guys. ASA and AVMT. >> Another one is at 218. That thing's been on a tear. If you bought that thing on Saturday at a dollar, you're up 100%. Or now more than 100%. So, I just fumbled these both. I had chain Yoda yelling at me about them. >> Um, in my Twitter saying, "Don't marry your bags."

>> And here we are. So, I got to figure out what what I can hear. >> I'm not really worried about it, >> man. But look at Fartcoin. Oh my god. Think was that a dollar or was that 95 cents on Thursday last week? It's down 35% cents. It's down to 62 cents today. What a reckoning on that one. Pump is back down to 610. So it's reasonable pullback. I'd say it's probably that pullback's probably completed. nearly did a 50% pullback from from where it topped out at. Look guys, we'll see where this ends up. Bitcoin looks weak, but you know, could easily hold here. If not, it

really looks rough considering we got one last high push on August and now we've been kind of, you know, kind of going sideways for a bit. We'll see. We'll see, guys. I'm not going to make any judgment calls. I'm not going to sit here and act like I know where things are going. But that was that's Avantis and Aster. I think those two things uh should deserve your attention. I'm not playing them. I'm not playing that game. Maybe I'm missing out on some gains. I mean, I'm sure I'm sure I uh had the you know, I'm sure I had the wrong setup here. I'm sure that I had the uh better idea would have

been probably going into Aster as soon as CZ tweeted. Um I didn't, you know, I don't know. I didn't get a chance to do it. I didn't see it. I thought it was silly and I paid the price. Not only that, it's just like guys, I mean, it's the weekend. I'm streaming five days a week now, working around the clock on the business side. It's just getting a chance to actually do any sort of real sustainable uh trading and then actually with size on new pairs and trying to actually navigate that is just it's just just too much work. Like how am I going to throw like 50 or 100 grand into freaking a new Aster token and I'm just going to be watching it all weekend long. And sure I would have made like 50 or 100K. It

would have been unreal. But like I don't know man the the the thing that I am worried about is just the trend of these two these two tokens AV&T and Aster and even Justin Sun's Sun one trending you know in the upwards direction and the Hyperlid chart trending in the downwards direction. A little bit worried about that. We'll see though guys. We'll see. It's the morning. It's 9:30. We'll play some quick tunes, just something light in the background for me. Get fired up. We got the Giza team coming. We got the Pendle team coming.

And yeah, should be a good freaking week. >> Little Ocean Alley. That's all righty, guys.

All right, let me try this one. Um, mic check. Okay, I think Mhm. Yeah, I changed to mobile. I think it's even better now. Hey I have my MacBook on, but mobile is a lot better. I don't uh I don't hear the feedback, so I think it's pretty easy.

So, we got these. We're going to be talking about AI agents. They are some of our first uh a like AI agents kind of defy integration project coming. Uh should be good. Should should be a fun one. And then we're going to roll into the main event or the main events which are our boys from OG and CMS Holdings. Boom. Hope you guys had a good weekend. Hope you guys are having a good day. Hope you guys aren't too worried about the market. Can't can't control it.

You got to do what you got to do. And yeah, guys, big week ahead for the rollup. I won't spoil it, but we've got quite a bit coming and uh pretty excited about it. >> All right. All right. All right. All right, we got to get them up in a sec.

>> Getting ready here. It's simple. It's simple. It's simple. It's simple. It's simple. you some Portuguese music. I don't know if you guys know, but I spent a lot of time in Brazil uh last couple years and I've picked up Portuguese pretty well. I've come to like the Portuguese music as well. The Brazilian culture is very like open and a vibe and and the music is like kind of like that too. This is like

a little Drake mix around it. It's simple. It's simple. Wow. Plasma to launch global Neo Bank. Wow. Plasma one. Damn. Wow. John Sharp proposal to reduce hyperlquid supply by 45%. What? Burn all hype currently held in the AF. Burn all hype acquired by the AF. Remove the max supply cap.

Revoke authorization for all unminted hype currently allocated. >> Wow, what a crazy proposal. >> Insanity. I'm gonna ask wants to come on stream. All righty. All right. All righty. We got the Giza guys. We got the pendle guys set up in the back. We're calling in from all over the world. Uh we're going to get them up and uh we're we're we're going to get fired up. So, uh

let's get them up here, guys, and let's have a stream. Rank right side. Good to have you guys. Welcome to the show. >> Pleasure to be here, man. Thank you for having us. Yep. Great for you guys. Uh Rank, I think it's your first time on Right Side. I know we've spoken a bit before. >> Would love just a quick intro, guys. What are you guys building now? What are you guys building together? What is Giza? Rank, you can you can kick us off and we'll we'll go to you right side. Let's have some fun, guys. >> Yeah, appreciate it. Appreciate it. Yeah, my name is Ranch. I'm the CEO of Giza and uh Giza exists to make a a real shift in how we consume finance, how we approach finance. Today most of

the people open a wallet and meet an end this pit of confusion, keys, balances, chains, tickers, all of those things, no cadence, no guidance. And the finance very much feels like a panel of clunky buttons right now. And at Giza, our thesis is that it feels more like an intent expressed once and carried out continuously. And what people need right now is a trusted companion that understands what they want to achieve and quietly sets their money to work for them. And we build onchain agents that translate human intent into action continuous non-custodial with explanation where you know you set your financial objectives and system does the rest and your money

works for you and not against you. >> Awesome. Right side. What are you guys cooking at Pendle lately? Give us the quick refresh. >> Yeah, for sure. So, we're continuously building Pendle v2. So far we're able to do an or facilitating around 13 billion TVL. Uh we reach a 70 billion trading volume milestone just for this week. So a lot of good stuff happening. We have a few products and upgrades that are happening for this week. For the B borrows end of thing we we have our mainet launch announced last week. So far it's doing pretty good. we are able to reach around 70 million in notional trading volume for trading interest

rates uh funding rates in particular. So a lot of exciting things on the AI side happy to be working with Giza uh for automating all the uh fixed yield experiences that you can do in Pendle. So yeah. Okay guys, so I have been thinking about so for context, I did so many onchain transactions in 2020 to 2023 that like my accountant is charging me over 20k USD just to go back and do it all and it's a absolute pain in the ass. And so the one thing that I thought about in the last 18 months more than anything is like how can I have something that I can just like write to on my phone and then have execution happen on chain likely in like a hot wallet, not necessarily one of my

hardware wallets with with like you know sizable amounts of capital on it. Maybe something that's just more of an experimental wallet, etc. And I just kept thinking like we need this kind of onchain assistant type of technology. um when you guys are looking at your user bases, I don't know how you're communicating with them, whether it's in Discord or support or kind of like surveys, whatever it is, like I is is this the use case that you're seeing uh for yields for DeFi? Is it really just as simple as I want to have an assistant or some sort of like automated exposure to the market uh in an easy way instead of having to like log onto my uh computer, click all these buttons and move all these things? Is it really that simple or am I missing something here?

>> Yeah, I can go first. It's really that simple. >> Um that's what everybody wants and that's what everybody suffers from. >> Yeah. >> And uh the very much the reality is that you know the financial markets have exceeded in like what we can comprehend and what we can execute in real time. And um we are in need of a more you know not necessarily just intelligent but more diligent entity to execute these financial operations on behalf of us. And uh besides just like the overhead of like the taxes and the reporting and the time wasted to it as humans we are also quite terrible at being profitable which is like the the most important thing in finance. We are emotionally driven. You know the markets don't sleep but we do.

we need to spend time with our families and the market doesn't really care about all of those things. So, what is the missing component here? It's very much a companion that understands where you want to get to and takes you there autonomously. It's kind of like a self-driving car for finance and that's what we're building towards um at Giza and this is very much why we partnered with with Pandle. >> Yeah, I agree on Re's point. I think currently in the DeFi scene, it's a bit complex with things and opportunities that are available for retail um institutions, but also DeFi native users. There are a lot of clicks. Um there's a lot of buttons to go around.

There's a lot of strategies that you can uh work around with, but it doesn't encompass to where it makes everything simple. So, there's definitely a use case or a solution to make everything easily available. um whether you want to you know earn different type of yields from um like blue chip assets or maybe from stable coins it's making one click of a button allowing anyone to earn like maybe a fixed yield in DeFi with just uh with just one simple app. So it's something that we want to drive the opportunity with uh moving forward and working with Giza with their AI like uh protocol is really helpful for like bringing this opportunity to the next

level. >> Yeah. So you guys have built this Pulse product. Um you guys filled a $3 million cap in three hours which was incredibly fast. Um and now you you're kind of able to use pulse to handle rollover automated rebalancing across some of the PT markets. um you know from from your perspective there right side you know how do how do you see pulse managing risk in the pendle markets um and you know maybe rank can chime in here around expiration dates right because first of all let me just put it out there that if you understand PT and YTS in DeFi you are an experienced DeFi user so our community listening right now and ranks

community listening right now probably don't really fully fully get it the way that you guys you. So, let me just give that context before you answer. But how how will Pulse manage some of the risk around uh some of these expiration dates, liquidity crunches, unexpected market swings like today? How how do you guys think about actually managing user uh capital well and safely when it comes to these types of situations? >> Yeah, definitely agree on those points, right? uh given the so much risk that are happening with just you know getting fixed yields on PDS there's a lot of things that you need to consider the maturity dates the liquidity and also rolling over to new opportunities that is available on Pendle so yeah I'll just give a bit of context for Pendle we

split the yield bearing asset into PTNYT but there's a lot of education that needs to be done still for actually defining what is PTNYT so what we're doing with Giza is focusing on the fixed yield aspect which is the PT that allows users to get a fixed yield or like a guaranteed yield on different types of assets. With the tech of Giza that is um fully launched now it allows users to abstract some of the complexities and like the risk factors that you did mention. One is like pts have a maturing date and they mature over time but with Giza it allows to roll over easily without thinking about the next maturity date and finding the next opportunity for your assets to

earn more yield. So this is something that I personally am looking for cuz like I'm a big PT fan have been like you know farming yields getting fixed yields on stable coins and and ETH but the thing is that you can't easily monitor your portfolio like every day right but with this it abstracts the additional step to understand when your maturity the maturity of your asset will be and just allow like the AI agent to do all of these things for you in terms of the liquidity crunch right there is a well I'm excited for that upcoming update I'm not sure if I can sh a bit more but you know AI agents can be modified and you

know can be redefined on how you want it to go so liquidity crunch can be a can be mitigated with AI agent but I won't share much it's a bit of an alpha let uh rank do it >> um yeah I mean it is very much like towards expansion uh of what we do at post like we launched it on arbitum and it's just ETH PT markets and the 3 million cap rolled up very fast as you mentioned Andy but the next is like doing more assets than ETH stables PT markets and then crosschain PT markets and all for for both ETH and stables and that expands the playing field of the agent to a degree where the liquidity

crunch that right side is mentioning can be mitigated completely because your agent will not just pick a PT market for you, but it will create a portfolio of PT markets for you, understanding where you can squeeze the most yield from every single dollar deployed. And you mentioned at the beginning when you passed us the mic that you know the only only 1% understands like the PT markets and the YT markets and what we always believe with right side is that I sincerely not I'm not saying it because here but I told him this as well like for me Pendle is the best D5 product out there and why should we only allow 1% to use it. What if like a 100% of whoever wanted like fixed yield

can get fixed yield uh through pandle and there is like an immense market impact in terms of what liquidity is how it flows who can get the best for it under the answer of that and Paul's turns pandle into oneclick fixed yield machine that anyone can access at any scale and what we do is you know democratize it to anyone. So sophisticated yield should not be just for the 1% but anyone who wants it can get it at any time and that has been the driving force behind building pulse with fangle.

>> Yeah, Rick, I got to ask you uh in the last couple years we've seen iterations of fixed income products hit the market in DeFi specifically around fixed yields for stables, fixed yields for different tanches of risk. Frankly, the market has written them off as too boring, too safe, not interesting. Uh, how do you kind of think about the fixed yield market, the fixed income market on chain now that we're entering a world where there's a lot more sophisticated players who have raised crypto treasury companies, who want to put this capital to use on chain, who want to see some sort of sustainable, reliable forecasting and models. you know, do you anticipate that your your user base for these types of products on both your

ends has shifted away from the DGEN's looking for 20% on stables to more, you know, uh reliable long longer term larger capital allocators? >> Yeah, I think as as DeFi evolves and matures, the boring stuff is going to be very much in demand. I I think you know, >> it's all the unsexy stuff right now. I mean our our agents are boring by design. You know, they do what they're supposed to do and they they do it in the best way and fixed yield is definitely there's like undoubtable undeniable demand for fixed yield as as pandle is where he is today. um you know Vitalik's latest post about like you know lowrisk yield can be like a

cornerstone of Ethereum is is very much a reality and as the DeFi's audience grows and changes these kind of things are very much going to be in demand. What I think is the future o of of of finance is an evolution from just being obsessed about buying an asset, an aesthetic position, and going towards buying a flow. A flow meaning if you buy an asset, you're in aesthetic position. It just sits there exposed to market swings waiting for you to rebalance and move it to when conditions change. And again we go back to finance being this clunky super uh overhead thing. Um buying flows instead of assets

means that yes you say you want to grow your savings but keep risk low. You can set a flow that says start safe and recycle yield into growth and the agent takes your deposit routes into stables routes into fixed deal positions and as yields accumulate it automatically reallocates them and goes maybe towards YT positions. But all of those things are done in a flow, a dynamic flow tailored to your intent and profile instead of a static asset. And I think that's what future of finance looks like. Money that works for you while you sleep. And it it sounds like a clear explanation instead of a chart with no context or like 10,000 chains. And it feels it feels like the moment where you

stopped you know writing every single text and every single idea that you have and when you started using like chpt to draft ideas to draft messages but the drafts are not text but there are trades there allocations protections carried out exactly as intended with 100% verifiability. So like making this autonomous policydriven uh money the default for every wallet every person I think that's where uh the future lies buying a flow a financial flow and not an asset and the agent executes and for the first time like finance is on your side and on your favor because it is working for you >> in that in that lens then right side if you agree you know you ought to think

that Pendle as a product is really really positioned for this new kind of thought process with regards to owning assets because effectively if you're using Pendle you're basically using the flows like that is the entire purpose how do you feel about this yeah I I agree on that point um definitely like the D5 market has started to mature initially fixed yields is not really a thing because how D5 summer started right with insane 1,000% APYs that you can easily farm in a week or two that makes people like insanely rich really fast But now those things have started to mature. We are seeing stable like yields across the board. However, I do think there's still opportunity to

generate high amounts of yield um through the underlying like yield uh like mechanic, right? So this where Pendle comes in that you know splits between the floating yields that is a bit more of like the generate side um that people can form either like underlying yield or points and there is the fixed yield side. At the moment we are very strong in stable coins. We have a lot of partners that are generating up to maybe 20% fixed yield. Those are the things that are actually getting attract being attractive with institutional flows. So our cap our capital and flows are coming in because they see there is an opportunity to get a fixed deal with the stable coin.

>> I do think that there is going to be more opportunities out there. real quick. Is this in Asia particularly that you're seeing these flows? Is it with your BD team on the ground in Singapore, in Korea? How are you getting these guys to get in in independal? And then are they just happy to deposit on the public markets that you have or do you have to build something special for them? >> Yeah, we're seeing a lot of opportunities not only in Asia, but there are also funds and family offices across the world. uh our current our current view is since most of our team is in Asia, right?

There's a big opportunity in the Chinese market for DeFi. >> Most of our users in DeFi are like from the Chinese folk and they're finding opportunities uh from big big offices with fixed yield. That's where they you know park their funds. It's pretty much a stake and forget uh kind of strategy that they have for fixed yields in Pendle which we provide an avenue of. So the only thing that kind of has a concern with is actually rollovers and like end of maturity um with this different types of pools. So this is where like an opportunity can arise for Giza allowing these funds and institutions to have that same stake and

forget but in a longer time period. >> Got it. Okay guys, I got to ask you both. Um we're we I invented this term revenue meta. It's really silly, but it makes sense. Everyone's trying to make money now. Uh, welcome to the real world, guys. I'm glad you guys launched in the last couple years before this happened. Um, good good for your pockets. But the but but if you want to survive, you you have to have a good answer to this question. And I'll start with you, Rank. I feel like it's going to be harder harder from from your side due to just how early you are. But clearly, the buyback idea is taking crypto Twitter by storm. Everyone likes buybacks. It's arguable whether that's a good strategy or not for tokens. Uh when you're so early investing into the

business, like you know what I'm looking at from my perspective, it's like doing buybacks and buying back the rollup token at this point instead of just hiring better people to scale this thing would make zero sense. And so I think it's like likely likely a similar outcome for a lot of early stage teams, right? when it comes to generating revenue. Our revenues aren't enough to to make any sustainable impact on a rollup token compared to what we could do if we scale. And so I think a lot of teams are in this boat, but they've seen Hyperlquid, they've seen pumpf fund, they've seen all these new perexes going crazy, which I'd love to get your guys' takes on as well. But rank when you're thinking about Giza token and the performance as well as just broadly the entire mechanism design of Giza how do

you create a sustainable revenue mechanism such that Giza has enough flows that investors can look at it and see and forecast out and place largesiz bets into the Giza token. You know these institutional guys they want to see flows. They want to understand how this thing could grow. what is your uh what is your strategy? What is the state of affairs there? >> I think that's a great question and I think it's also like this revenue meta that you came up with. I think it's it's in the favor of like market discipline you know because we have gone as you mentioned quite long without any kind of discipline without just like yoloing into a lot of uh tokens like the past 20 months or so saw a bunch of quote

unquote AI tokens quote unquote agent tokens that were neither AI or neither agents and now they're like 99% down and they are down for a reason and I think if we can enforce some market discipline if you know we are looking at projects with growth with actual usage that's in the benefit of people who are doing the actual work. So we are very much for it. Um Giza agents they have a core singular capability which is digesting vast amounts of real time onchain data and making split-second decisions on where the capital should be allocated to to be the most profitable to be the most productive. This core capability in return creates what we call active

capital. Capital that moves for you that moves on from like total value locks. But how do we unlock total value is what we're going for. How do we create an intelligent always on capital and this capital work towards like two sides of revenue of Giza and both they streamline to uh to the to to the value appreciation of the token. On one part we monetize the management of capital. This is where the agent takes a certain amount of fee from the generated yield for whatever use case or if it's a DCA agent, it takes micro fees from every transaction. is very much business case oriented and the fees from there goes back to buying back the token to providing a protocol on liquidity or to

making critical hires as you mentioned Andy and the second part of the revenue is from the deployment of capital the deployment of capital that the Giza agents manage and create which is currently 100 times more productive than than usual capital and this is where the concept of swarm finance comes in which we introduced lately where protocols like arbitum uh can put incentives for the users to have a heightened APR and this is what we are p piloting with pulse and pendle where users can now go to pulse.xyz XY Z and get 13 14% yield on your ETH because there's an incentive layer behind it and this creates the second revenue stream

of Giza and we take a fee from those incentives and those also goes back to buying back the token to protocol own liquidity and to hires to audits and all of those things. So we are very much growth driven, we are very much revenue driven. uh we are very much uh token driven and everything happens under the visa token which we are super excited about. Yeah, I think that's another good focus too or a good frame, right? And and I appreciate you explaining that and you know maybe it's small now but as you scale these numbers can grow and I think that's what people want to see. All like all that matters for investors right now I feel like is like okay team is actively thinking about generating revenue is generating revenue and is thinking about how this is going to

affect the token like we've been in this model where you know due to the regulatory environment we were like it was almost like a like taboo to care about the token because it was like you you like couldn't really because you had too many rules um so so I think that actually you bring a good point of actually really like prioritizing that and I mean I don't think the token is the product guys are right, but I think they had something right in terms of at least the frame of of thought. Right side, I'll pass it to you to close us out here. Um, you know, what is the state of affairs when it comes to Pendle's revenue when it comes to the Pendle token? Uh, how are you guys thinking about it internally?

>> Yeah, for sure. But, um, before that, just want to say appreciate PT and Visa. I was able to get personally like 12.55% um, APY, but it's it's pretty it's pretty neat. But yeah, going back to the revenues, right? Uh we have a different view as well with Pendle. So far, we're a able to get like an analyzed of 79 million in revenue for Pendle V2, which is pretty neat. Um we're able to be a profitable protocol ever since um inception. However, we're still in the side of building more and growing our product for both Pendle V2 and Bor.

I think buybacks make a lot of sense once you're able to get the proper product market fit to where you can generate high amount of revenues that balances both product growth scaling um operations and having a percentage of that for buybacks. having an high amount of buybacks at the moment while like most of the crypto protocols are just startups scaling and finding product market fit I feel doesn't really make sense yet and would be like a critical point to where they're not able to fulfill like some of like the KPI mile that they want to do.

So it's a balance on how much you want to scale your product, how much are you um looking to drive more demand with product market fit with your products and then see from there. On our end personally, we are also looking at the buyback mechanic, right? It's quite known. It's a a very big marketing game as well. It's quite popular for people who are, you know, investing in tokens and whatnot. But we are at the sca uh at the time where we want to build both Pendle V2 and Boros to greater heights.

So definitely we're we're considering that but yeah maybe just um look forward to what we're going to share more in the future. >> All right guys, just want to get your take. I know we're a little over here. I want to be respectful of your time. Um what are your takes on this uh this per deck thing that we saw over the weekend? We saw CZ come out and launch his Aster decks. He was like, you know, challenging uh Hyperlquid. Then Justin Sun did the same. There's another one on um on base of Avantis that's pumping. These things have gone up like hundreds of of percentages in a matter of of days. Uh you know, due to this kind of revenue idea, people are rediscovering perexes as if it's a new uh concept in crypto. What's your take on this kind of

Justin Sun versus CZ versus Jeff, you know, kind of like per Dex phenomenon? Uh how do you guys see uh Hyperloop's position? How how do you guys see just this entire uh kind of like flash in the pan that we saw o over the weekend playing out? Uh just just genuinely curious. Maybe you can go first. Right side. >> Oh yeah, sure. I would say for the span of the whole year, hyperlquid has taken like majority of the market share for like a perex. I would say it's it's insanely great how Jeff have managed a team like just operating with a small team but able to scale this this big,

right? However, there's always an opportunity for competitors is come to come in in the per deck space to innovate and to know to develop because I I think that if there's no competitors then there's no development or there's no innovation that's going to happen. So, we're also in the lookout for like new perexes. I mean, hyperlid came in this year um two years ago if I recall right like GMX was there and then last cycle there was dydx. There's always room for improvement in the perex space which is one of the biggest venues for crypto to come in because how they're able to leverage on you know trading different types of tokens. So with CZ Justin Sun starting to build their own perex it's eventually going to make more

of our perex space more efficient um more innovative and able to provide more value to our users on our end as well for the yield market or yield trading market. there are people that are starting to, you know, innovate and think things. Um, we're always open to see competition as well and see how we can innovate on our end. So, it's a natural thing. Um, happy to see more of that. But, yeah, I think Hyperlid is very is a very strong >> close us out, man. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Hyperl is an amazing team to work with as well and and what they have done in the past months has been incredible uh to watch.

For the competition part, I couldn't agree more. Competition is healthy. It drives people. It makes us, you know, take a look at ourselves and see how we can improve. Um, more more data on chain, more capital on chain, more more people on chain is is what is leading to which is also bullish for Giza because that means like more playing field for agents, more data to consume for agents, more destinations for agents. So, I'm very much looking forward to all of it. Gentlemen, thank you for joining today. It's been a pleasure. Congrats on the pulse launch and see you guys soon.

>> Thank you, Andy. Appreciate it. >> You as well later, guys. >> All righty, guys. Good to have the Pendle and Giza guys on uh smart smart teams. Uh just, you know, moving forward in the AI crypto space in the DeFi space. So, just always good to kind of hear from teams that are pushing the boundaries and actually making that happen. Up next, we've got the man of the hour. We've got Michael Heinrich from OG. He's launched that already before the token launched. He launched mainet. He launched the token today.

It's going to be an exciting segment. Uh we are going to get him up shortly and get started with Michael from Zero Gravity. So guys, welcome back again to the rollup TV. If you're watching on Twitter, you can press the little button in the bottom corner, scroll the feed, hang out. If you're watching on YouTube, that is where our chat is. You can watch on YouTube as well at the rollup co. Uh, and we're going to welcome Michael on stage. So, let's get him up. And, uh, Michael, big day for you. >> Huge day. Uh, not too much sleep these days, but it's uh, it's been a lot of fun. Very exciting. Um, >> so you're calling in from Korea?

>> I'm in Korea. Yeah, it's about 11 p.m. right now and uh still have a couple meetings to go after this. So >> nice. What is the >> long night? >> What is the vibe in Korea, you know, for the last couple days? I know KBW is getting started. How are things out there? >> So, I was at the uh Hack Summit uh this morning and giving a speech and then literally going into was at the Josan Palace Hotel. Getting into the hotel, I was greeted by like huge lines in front of the elevator. I was like, "Okay, retail attention is real in Korea." So, um, really fun so far. Very exciting vibe. It's also really cool to see a lot of the like zerog graphics around Gangnam. So, you can just like walk around, you see like a panda and a zero G logo. So, I was really pleased with

all of that. >> Beautiful. Well, man, we we got a lot to discuss, so I'm glad that you're here and made some time for for this. I I know it's been busy. Let's just start with mainet. Let's start with the launch. How did everything go? Did it go smooth? Are you satisfied? um kind of just what was the last 48 hours like? >> So the last 48 hours uh now feel a little bit like a blur but um it was just a lot of uh detailed work. So anything from making sure all the smart contracts are ready for claims and making sure the kind of mainet is ready and prepped and so on. And so luckily, you know, there were some glitches like for example, there was a bit of uh kind of delay in um transaction and block

processing on the on the L1 as we were kind of starting to stress test it. Um and we figured it out pretty quickly. So within 20 minutes, everything was back up live. The claim initially didn't work. So a lot of people got pissed off pretty quickly, but we fixed that as well. So I would say we did the best we could in terms of preparation and definitely acknowledge uh people got kind of angry saying like hey why why can't why isn't the claim up you said the claim was going to be up but uh we we were able to manage and and go through it but uh I think we launched with 22 exchanges or something like that uh live on day one and um had a couple of the Korean exchanges bit up bit day one as well. So feel really uh excited and pleased to be in Korea and to be

able to uh to do all of that. So by and large um I think it it went well. Uh definitely a few glitches that we had to go through and really appreciate our community for for being patient with us. >> Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. All right. The the news of the hour is Flora is rebranding to Zero Stack with you, Michael, stepping in as executive chairman and Daniel Rice Faria as CEO. You guys raised $400 million. uh with a good chunk of that being uh from DeFi DevCp about $22.8 million. Um there was also rumors coming out that there was a you know upwards of a couple hundred million dollars of locked OG um kind of contributed to this. Maybe you

could clear up the FUD here. People are saying that this is really, you know, not a good look for zero G for the DATs, that this is like another level of kind of pushing this in the direction of of just kind of being in danger zone in regards to just uh the entire idea of DATs, you know, what does this represent strategically? You know, why did you choose to do the uh pipe pricing at $3 per token? What, you know, before the token was launched? You know, how did that decision get made? talk to us about this dad.

>> Yeah, so quite a few questions in there, but uh people who are basically making claims like that don't understand why why dads exist and how they work. And so effectively a dad exists to have and hold the underlying token and to accumulate more and more of that underlying token so that the token per share uh grows over time. That's the key metric effectively. And so it's in the best interest of the DAT to never actually sell the underlying token because it's a treasury vehicle. And generally these stats also are priced at a premium to what's called MNAF or net asset value. And so when they're trade at a premium and actually if you look at

Micro Strategy over time, Micro Strategy as a stock perform 3x better than the underlying Bitcoin because of a lot of the kind of financial engineering that Michael Sailor has done and the kind of premiums to MNAV that he's been able to drive. When you have those premiums, then you can actually sell shares to buy more of the underlying token. And so that whole statement basically shows that people don't understand kind of the purpose of these stats. It's all about accumulation of the underlying asset. In this case, zero stack is accumulating zerog. And so it's effectively a way for um you know, some protocols use things like buyback and burn mechanisms. In zero G's case, we it's a NASDAQ listed entity that its whole

purpose now is to buy ZG tokens and to take it off uh kind of the liquid markets, if you will, or through other various uh mechanisms. And so because this was launched before there was a live trading token, there were a number of kind of challenges, legal challenges, tax challenges. You also mentioned one which is kind of the pricing challenge. How do you price something that's not even liquid yet? And so we basically had to get an independent third party to say, we believe this is a fair price. And so we got a valuation firm. They said, you know, based on a number of historical factors and other things, we believe $3 per token is a fair price.

And luckily, uh towards the end before the announcement, we also had uh Binance pre-market uh kind of list the token itself and the token uh price in that pre-market started reflecting as well what the the D that price was even even at a even more so there was actually premium to that. And so we we felt really good about the valuation work that the company did. So felt like it was pretty fair. >> This, you know, this claim has been for the, you know, there's been this claim for the Salana Dats. There's been this claim for some of these others that okay, you've got these teams that are contributing lock tokens and then their

shares on the public market get unlocked within 30, 60, 90 days, allowing the team and insiders to have an early exit. What would be your response to people who are saying that you know that the team and then the that the investors are losing faith in the zero gravity project and they want an early exit. What is the response to to that type of of question? I'm I'm smiling because people that say that don't understand SEC regulations. I would like to see all of the DATs where the key management team members have actually sold large swaths of equity.

There's probably zero because you've got security regulations and insider trading regulations. So this type of stuff is uh generally done through a managed process where if you want to avoid kind of insider trading rules, you have to have a managed kind of sale process. And I'm forgetting what the structure is called exactly right now. I have it on on X so people can definitely look it up because imagine you have uh five of the core executives of that company selling equity before a specific event. Let's say before a quarterly report. What do you think that signals to the market?

>> It's it's not a bullish signal, right? >> It's not good. No, it's not good. >> Exactly. Exactly. And so to avoid all of these kind of first of all insider trading launch aspects and also negative signals to the market, you do it on a managed kind of sell approach. And so it would be absolute like self suicide to try to sell large swaths of equity into the market from the management team. That's, you know, not long-term aligned with with how DATs work and how securities regulations work. And so people really need to look under the hood and understand what's actually going on before they make claims like that that are really baseless.

>> Yeah. Okay. Um so you guys mentioned that zerog the token will be the primary reserve asset. Um what are the what is the kind of broad scope of this DAT for uh zero stack here? Is it is it going to be strictly a you know zero G token DAT? Will there be other tokens as a part of it? What is the what is the kind of nature of of the plans? Uh from a broad perspective, what can you share? >> Yeah, so basically the reason why it's called zero stack because it's supposed to stack zerog over time. And so the primary purpose is only for zerog um at this point. And so that's yeah it's it's basically the very first decentralized

uh AI DAT if you will that's really focused on the core infrastructure that makes AI transparent verifiable um ultimately safe and also decentralized which makes it much more open and a communitydriven approach community owned so to speak and so for the first time institutional and retail investors on the equity markets can actually get exposure this way if they have never had exposure to a token vehicle or investment. >> Yeah. And and in the lens of the actual uh you know buying pressure on Zerog, you know, we we we've seen other DATs come out announce that they're going to buy quite a bit of its given token and then um you know actually go and do it.

But in this case, it feels like this is more of like a supply sync mechanism for ZeroG than it is a a new buying pressure in the immediate term. you know, is that the right way to think about it or or is there is there plans to start accumulating zerog uh as well with the cash raising? >> No, no, no. It's it's it's definitely both. I mean, you take supply off the market because many investors on the Zeroravity Labs cap table chose to do inclined uh contributions and you know that's that's great from a supply control perspective if you will on the token but really um the idea is to take all of the cash that uh zero stack has raised as well as have different financial instruments that provide even

more cash things like ATMs for example and then consistently make announcement about zero token buys as well. So it would be really silly to have a D that just removes supply without doing any of the buying. You're missing a big part of the equation and why there's kind of like premiums to MNA. >> Yeah. Okay. Cool. And um when you were kind of thinking about your role in ZeroG, you're you're now the executive chairman of Zero Stack, but does that mean that you still remain CEO of Zerog Labs or h how how does the leadership structure change? maybe you could give us a bit of the the background as to who the CEO is and kind of how his involvement in zero stack came about.

>> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm the executive chairman. So, I I work directly with a CEO called Daniel Rice Faria. And so as the executive chairman, I'm more involved on more of the strategic planning side, more of the thinking around here are some aspects of where we can go into here's potential ways of, you know, generating new potential cash streams to buy more of the zerog token. And very much as part of this uh very clearly in my contract I said that I'm remaining the CEO of Zeroravity Labs because I want to ensure that the technology leadership and the research leadership of the protocol consistently improves and we can support all of those aspects and that there's no gap in leadership for that. And so yes I'm the

executive chairman of Zerostack as well as the CEO and you know maintaining to be the co-founder of course of of zero gravity labs. And then to talk a little bit about uh Daniel as well. So he was one of the core architects of DFTV together with uh Joseph. Joseph uh was the chief strategy officer at Kraken for a long period of time and together with uh some additional team members uh built what is now one of the or the earliest Salana DAT and as well as one of the biggest and then according to MSNBC the second most successful DAT right after Micro Strategies from a return on equity standpoint and so very very strong leadership a lot of experience in running that a lot of experience in

understanding equity markets it's how to run ATMs um and kind of just in general financial structuring. So really proud to be working with that team. Because of FDV's backing, they will also do a lot of the kind of back-end processes like help us run ATMs and so on. So it's just an absolutely stellar team and uh really love working with the guys. >> Nice. Awesome. Uh, one last thing on the on the DAT construction, if you can share, you know, I I think you probably have a duty to disclose, you know, how many lock tokens you're looking to contribute into the DAT and then kind of what the what the lockup is going to be for the investors of that DAT. I know that we talked about the incentive mechanisms and the why, but you know, I

think that the community generally the, you know, the best way to debunk this FUD is just to be pretty transparent with the amount of tokens locked in kind that you're planning to contribute as well as the lockup for the uh shares that are being traded on the public market for zero stack. >> Yeah, absolutely. And and we haven't released the SEC filings around it. So, I just wait people to be patient until the SEC filings are out, then I can talk more publicly about it as well. Okay. >> Yeah. So, I just want to make sure that they that they go hand in hand effectively. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And I'm happy to like like write you about it and then you can post it about it on the rollup as well.

>> Awesome. Michael, um, shifting away into now actually what Zerog is building. Um, you know, you guys have been building in in in this AI kind of landscape for I mean, it feels like I think our fund invested like it feels like two years ago. Um, now it's been a journey. What is the zero or what is the zeroravity chain uh you know simply simply do and what is the ecosystem what is your vision now post mainet right it's live it's very much in the in the live stage out of the testing environment what is your vision for zero gravity chain let's say a year from now two years from now and uh you know what are you guys most

you know focused on >> yeah so what I keep emphasizing with uh our community and the team is that TG is just day one. You know where we were in day zero, TG is day one because now we have things that are measurable like any campaign that we run whether it's a technology campaign it's a marketing campaign it's an ecosystem campaign we can now directly measure actual impact on kind of key metrics and these key metrics could be you know transaction volume TVL new wallets registered you know there's various ways of kind of measuring success over time but um our mission is to make AI a public good and that's not just a one year or twoear type of mission that's maybe a lifetime type of mission because when we truly

succeed we can create a world that's full of abundance and maybe in a couple generations we don't even have to work for a living anymore because AI is doing a lot of the things that we don't want to do and we get to do more of the things that we do want to do maybe that means self-actualization or type of enlightenment type of activities over time so that's the type of world that I want to see being built and I had a daughter about a year ago and I would love her for her to, you know, live in a world that that has that kind of mindset. So that's what we stand for and and for that we need, as I mentioned, transparent AI, safe AI, and we can go into why that's the case and all of the kind of research that's coming around

it. But to go back to your question like the immediate future now that it's day one we have to say we need to really focus on building uh an ecosystem that has a lot of reality and a lot of usage because otherwise if people don't adopt it then it's you know just a it's a great mission but not a lot of a lot of usage and so five key initiatives have to be part of that. So we look at it we need to build a liquidity layer first then an application layer then we need to double down on our decentralized research leadership. We also need to double down on faster tech rollouts. And then finally, we want to decentralize the the ecosystem and kind of the leadership of the protocol as well. And so let's go into each one of them. Our fundamental philosophy is all about uh

first principles thinking. So when we architected the chain, we didn't just say, hey, what's uh the key components that are available today and let's see how much performance we can get out of them. We basically said, well, what do AI workloads look like? If I look at a modern data center, there's hundreds of gigabytes, even terabytes per second of throughput that are required to do some of these training processes. How do we architect a DA layer that's actually that performant versus, you know, doing it the other way? And if we did it the other way, we would have maybe landed at, you know, we can do 100 megabytes, maybe gigabyte per second throughput on that. Instead, our system does 50 gigabytes per second per consensus layer. And when you horizontally scale consensus layers, you get to infinite scale effectively. So that's our mindset

around it. And so similarly with the liquidity layer, we believe TVL should be brought to the chain when it's actually needed, not up front. Like why do we need 5 billion of TVL up front if nobody's going to use it? If the application layer isn't even ready, if the users aren't really fully on chain and so why can't we do an infinite TVL campaign, quote unquote, where we draw on liquidity and incentives when it's absolutely necessary for the growth of the ecosystem. So those are some that those are things on the liquidity layer. Application layer, it's really all about how do we build a clear ecosystem value proposition. So builders know exactly the type of support they get based on what stage they are and then also that they feel based on that stage that they get an competitive advantage by joining

the zerog ecosystem. And really our goal is to like a AI a lot of existing verticals and attract the builders that can actually do that. So number three y >> uh research we published five recent articles four of which are already in top AI and software engineering conferences. So things like um uh decentralized federated learning being a a solution to centralized federated learning and the security issues that it has. Um other things uh we've done too for example we uh published a paper that where for the first time we trained a model that's 107 billion parameters in a fully decentralized fashion that was never possible before it's three times

the previous standard and and kind of capacity forbes covered it many other news publications covered it was a major breakthrough because for the first time you could actually use low bandwidth connections about 1 GB per second to actually train these models and not have gridlock issues and then also do a dual paralyze uh dual communication model where we increase the kind of communication uh we decreased the communication overhead by 357x we basically utilized some of the research Google did with DLO co and then improved it significantly and created DLCO X effectively so just some of the examples and then technology rollout you know we already a sharded architecture where you can get infinite TPS but each

shard does about 11,000 TPS right now 400 millisecond block time but we want to 10x the performance over time because when you do that you can then build any AI application any massive scale web 2 application fully on web 3 and so then we've effectively figured out kind of the scaling challenges and then decentralizing the ecosystem we haven't announced this yet but we're one of the first companies to use a Duna in governance for example >> we'll have a security council and that security council will initially use optimistic uh type of voting where effectively we listen to the community, we look at new security proposals, we propose something and then community members can effectively veto those types of proposals and then if it doesn't veto after a few days then the whole thing

gets passed and we want to have more and more features of that. So progressive decentralization is part of it >> and of course all of these initiatives require absolutely the best people that are very missional aligned and so you'll see some really big announcement coming out about some of the recent leadership that we fired as well. So it's going to be very exciting. Interesting. Very interesting. Last thing for you, Michael. Your your kind of operating system or OS. It it it in encompasses storage, compute, and training all into one. You know, you kind of got into this. We don't need to go too deep down the rabbit hole, but you know, by doing this, what is the killer use case that it unlocks for builders today? If you bundle together compute, training, and storage, what do you get for AI builders

who want to get involved into the blockchain ecosystem? >> Yeah, if I'm a web 2 AI builder and I'm used to going to OpenAI and having a bunch of API calls for different types of models and if I need to do fine-tuning, I have this API call. If I need to pull a video model, I have this API call. If I'm going to web 3 and then I'm like, wait, this thing does like one specific type of inference. It's like verifiable inference at ZKML. I'm like, what is ZK now? I need to read up about ZK. And it's like, oh, it's way too slow for what I need. Okay, let me go to OPML. Actually, that doesn't work so well either. Okay, what what else should I do? TML, I guess. Okay, let me try that. Okay, that actually works. And before you know it, you go to like 20

different services and you're like, I just wasted like weeks trying to figure out what I need to build. And so by having a one-stop shop, by having an experience where everything just easily works together, it's a huge advantage for builders because they just need to go to one place and then uh enjoy still the decentralized aspects of it, but be able to pull in whatever they need. It's a modular fashion. So if you happen to like a storage service that works better for you, like go ahead, but then use us for, you know, the fine-tuning and inference type of services. >> Beautiful. Michael Hinrich live from Korea. Big day. huge, huge, huge token launch, big DAT launch, fighting the FUD. There's going to be more FUD. It's never gonna stop. Um, part of the process,

>> you're gonna have to fight that and you're going have to build and everything. It's going to be a really, really fun challenge for you guys. Enjoy KBW. Enjoy the uh vibes in Korea. I think it's probably all-time highs in terms of Korea mind share, terms of teams wanting to capitalize on the market. And so, you know, glad that you're there. Robbie's there. If you see him, tell him, "Hey." And um yeah, thanks for your time, man. >> Well, do No, thanks for having me. Really enjoyed your questions. Till next time. >> I I hope I didn't take it too hard on you, man. I'm always just trying to find out what's what's going on, man. All right.

>> I have a I have a I have a thick skin. Don't worry. >> All righty, Mike. Thanks for your time, buddy. See you soon. >> See you. Bye. Bye. >> All right, guys. What do we think? What do we think? What do we think? is is is is this thing, let's see where OG's trading at. >> Pretty good, right? >> And and obviously guys, disclosure, I you know, I I did say during the call uh and before our our fund did do the early investment round two years ago with OG, it feels like maybe even maybe it's closer to a year and a half ago. Um token's at 5 billion right now. Had a huge launch. Um Michael's in Korea. That was an exponential. I think the big thing that we're gonna want to see is% that team is going to be the actual

financials the public how much locked in kind OG contributed to how much capital is going to go towards buying the token as well as lock up parameters for zero stack. >> I think it was a successful launch to note so about it. >> We have seen us a lot of things wellordinated. I mean obviously some challenges here and there but I think a lot of things went right as well kind of engagement exchange engagement join us for this one and the announcement both have a good market what he's seeing you know by large didn't break down fully so it actually

feeling good about CMS up here and we'll get rolling right into the next one >> but what was interesting about the crash in 22 was that was the first time there was a material credit crunch with the bare market, right? >> So like not only are like asset prices going down, but people are like having to like pay back borrow and it like exacerbated things like much more to the downside. Um and it also like caused people to just like blow up like in in previous cycles if you had like prices went down like you were pissed and like you were out a lot of money but you it was very hard to like blow yourself up.

I mean, you could do it like BitMX and OKX were still around. But it was very hard to go like negative, right? Because like your your counterpart is gonna just like unwind you. That was not the case in 22. And like obviously we saw that as everything had to like pay through bankruptcy and like we were still dealing with it. Um and like everything like was a lot more like volatile. I this this cycle like the credit in that way never really came back. Um there's there's little bits of it, but it's definitely not anywhere near the capacity and size it was before. You're seeing leverage like that though come through stratify, right? So like a lot of these debts they have the ability to borrow or they're like issuing sort of like traditional um vehicles to like be able to like borrow money though they're

not like leverage for the most part like they're issuing just like stock and then selling it and then buying but like that if there's any form of like leverage outside of just like what you see on like the futures like it's coming in sort of via those angles but still in by and far and large there's not like a lot of credit in the market. Maple's probably now like the biggest player. >> Yeah. They hit four billion. >> Yeah. Um, which is big, but like like that's still small compared to where we were. >> I don't know what the total number lent came out to be last highs of like that 21 22 cycle, but I bet it was 100x or so of that. Um, so anyway, yeah, like that like but's got a good business. They're like running. Um, but there still like lenders are still you still have to be

fully collateralized if not like over like you can't the idea that you can just like go with like a Twitter handle and like borrow money is just like kind of gone. May not come back. We saw Wildcat get uh hit from a loan a small loan thing that that they were dealing with because they're kind of on the uncolater or underized >> side of things which which never really came. Um you know we we got CMS here guys. Welcome to the world TV. Welcome CMS. We're just going to keep cranking. Um welcome Dan. Um, yeah. I mean, they they there was this idea in DeFi back in 2020 2021 that like we kind of extended all of the debt that we could get with over collateralized lending and all these different kind of ideas. And I remember us kind of thinking like, okay,

we're going to get uh under collateralized lending next. And like that's what's going to, you know, give us like like the next leg. You know, it took four years. It's still kind of not even here. Three Jane is is kind of working. Uh Wildcat was kind of working, but not really at any scale. And now it's like, okay, the DATs is what is going to bring a ton of new money into DeFi. Like, that is what's going to be the, you know, because these DATs need to get yield. They need to get more uh value per share. And so, you know, I don't know, I don't think any of us could have bet that that it was going to be these institutional treasury vehicles that were going to come and get DeFi to the $1 trillion, you know, TVL three years ago.

>> Yeah. I mean, I think they're still going to use the overlap like protocols. Uh I mean, we use Wildcat a bit. Um, we had an open loan in there that we rolled through like two quarters. So, like I think we did for like six months. It just like there wasn't as much like inbound interest to lend at it, which I understand, right? Like it's uncolateralized. Like it's risky. Um, so like we kind of just like stopped doing it. Um, but maybe that would change. Like maybe there's a world that like people get even more risk on and like they'll start wanting to like reach further out the curve to like get yield. But I'm just like a little skeptical of it. Um, but like there there's like flow happening there. It's just been tiny, I think, like in aggregate. Um, yeah, it might change. The problem is I think

rates would just have to be so high that it's like >> it's a non-starter for people that are like looking to borrow it except for short-term stuff. The thing that defaulted was kind of like >> like that was doomed from the get. Like it was a protocol that got hacked, right? And they were like, >> "Yeah, yeah, >> we're gonna go try to find money to like plug the hole, but for now we're gonna plug it with a borrow." I don't know. That seemed like a wild like they were admitting they were insolvent and like that they needed to. >> So I don't know. I don't count that one like against Wildcat. Like I think >> they were very upfront. I think it paid like a 50% APY or >> 50%. Yeah. So >> I mean you knew what you were getting into. Um but that's that's niche, right?

Like that's not going to be like a material use case for it. Um like right now it's mostly been like well-known players looking to like get balance sheet as they can anywhere. Um, I mean, like I think that's the big problem of a lot of shops is they it's hard, right? If you want to scale your activity up, like there's not a ton of ways to get capital. Um, it's very hard. You can't like really tap traditional sources for the most part. Um, it's just like not open like sort of for like crypto. They they view the business is too risky, which might be like the reality of it. Um, and then like inside crypto, it's like very expensive to borrow. Um or you've just got to be like massively overcolateralized or you got to go and sell equity and like people just like don't want to do that. So like that's I

think why things get like hamstrung. Like the market makers in particular who have like the easiest claim for like why they need the balance sheet and like they're not just trying to lever long like have the hardest time borrowing. >> And you were saying earlier that the 202122 cycle had a lot of those lenders that that would extend credit into the system. They're not really here now. And and so we're kind of looking at like the DeFi sources for that credit. But do you think there it's a result of there was a low rate environment then and then rates started to go up?

>> No, I don't think I don't think the rate at all. I don't think the lenders are going to come back in at all. >> I don't think I don't think it's a rate function. >> No, I mean like the like they I mean I don't know what we we were in a 2 3% rate environment and like they were lending at 10 to 12. Like I don't think like it cranking up to five like mattered. I think it was just there was like there was this big push, right? Like I mean BlockFi had all these like ads like on podcast and stuff like go earn 8% on your money and like people were just like yeah let's do that and like nobody thought the problem was like nobody ever really gave a true thought of like where the end paper like landed right like where did the money

ultimately like reside and that was obuscated from the lender because they didn't know like if you lent your money to blockfy you were like all right I face blocky like I don't know where then they take it and like give it to same way with Genesis right like or Celsius all of them they were the same Well, you have like had no idea who was like the end holder of it. Like if the the reality is was like, hey, we got like four market makers and like three prop shops that are probably just like levered long with it. Like people might have been like I don't know if that's >> Yeah. So like I think that was the problem, right? It's like there was no way to like figure out like where the risk profile of that like really work and and they were largely borrowing from

retail. >> That was the other thing, right? like it was like taking all these like slugs of retail money and like lending it out or it was like retail and like wealthy crypto which like functions a lot like retail >> and nobody's asking a lot of questions. So Dan, I think as a result of that, basically what we've seen in the market more than ever, right, is this dispersion or you call it like a bifurcation of returns where, you know, you look at the market as a as a whole. And you know, with the Bitcoin bid that we had the last two years from Sailor, you would have thought that we would have seen better performance across the board outside of just Salana, Soul Memecoins, and you know, some very select few winners. they've they've started to show themselves more and more

this you know last six to nine months but for most of end of 23 mid to end of 23 into 24 it was very Bitcoin and memecoin dominated and probably as a as a result of uh where the interest rates were at although you seem to not think that maybe that has as much of an impact also just of the lack of credit and and so we started to kind of get this idea going here on on the show and I coined this term revenue meta which I got so much flack for pretty much for the name Meta because why is it a meta? It's just business guys. And so I think that is where the market is kind of at now. Um is this kind of like fundamental coins understanding that that there's actual value in tokens that have cash flows that return to the uh you know token.

I'm curious like you know think about syrup uh oiler pump hype um these types of like a right these assets like are you seeing and expecting considerably more flows into these tokens that have um this kind of like revenue structure or like buyback profile and then how do you think about these when it comes to the DAT which is just like we're just going to raise a bunch of cash and buy back forget about needing to buy back with our own protocol rev we're just going to be buying back in scale uh as a result. There's kind of like two different uh categories here of like I would consider highly investable tokens.

I'm curious how you're seeing like this more broadly. >> Well, look, if a token has revenue, it can like buy back its own token. Like the market can like can't really dictate its valuation like beyond. So, I guess I say this like right like there's there's a forward projection of what like a token's valuation should be as a function of its revenue, right? like if you're I mean this is just like traditional equities, right? Like you do a discounted cash flow, you figure out like sort of what that valuation is and and that's like your baseline for these things. So that gives you like a floor of sort of like how this stuff like will trade. Um everything else like on top of that is like obviously just expectations of like where like future P&L is like going to go up or down like any like

risk to the business like any competition that comes, anything they may be able to do on top. Um, so like those things will trade that way according to I think like and that gives you a floor. The problem is if you're like a protocol that effectively well if you're a protocol that like makes the decision like we're not going to try to like figure out how to make money in any capacity then you're just subject to the whims of like the same thing as meme coins where it's all just like driven by flows, right? And those speculative flows are like they they move randomly somewhat, right? like they have like a beta to the market, but you're you're much like you've got much more risk of just like going to zero, too. So, I guess my question to answer your question is that if you do have this

like good business with like revenue, like there's not a lot of reason to think like suddenly that's going to like stop, right? Or that like the whole thing is going to crash. So, those things should continue to trend up. What's going to like dictate the price now is like what the forward guidance is on whatever their like niche is that they make money, right? like they're all fun. All the stuff you mentioned kind of is primarily driven by like trading activity still, right? Like hype is just per leverage and then pump is just like basically a basket of like casino tokens that you can like gamble on. So it's like two sort of sides of the same coin of like it's it's fundamentally driven by like speculative interest by like people and if you think if there's a bare market and so other people aren't

interested like the token may just trade down because like there's less expected speculation like in the future and there's also like risk because there's other competitors building in the market like they'd be able to maybe but grab market share there's like regulatory risk still on these things even though we're in the Trump administration. So like those will be like the shocks if they have any. >> Dan, so uh on that note, I put out this tweet like on the first of all completely agree with your uh frame of reference. If these things are are making money, they're likely to continue. You got to understand what the market is, what the size potential is.

That's why flood is like look, hype will always be bigger than pump. You know, if memecoins are just a dying market now pump is doing more like streaming, maybe they have a thing there. I don't know. Um but we'll see. But I totally agree on those two points. And on the competitive point, I put out this tweet. Uh it was May 22nd this year. If you were CZ watching Hyperlid hit 8 billion in open interest, what would you do about it? And then today or last night I quote tweeted it. He's they've launched this this thing Aster. They've launched this token Aster their own perex.

You know, I was like BCZ watch Hyperlid win the last 12 months. sidelined, realized the entire business is at risk, yada yada yada, launch a competitor, launch a token, pumps the pump the brakes off of it. What an absolute wild industry. And it seems like a lot of these uh centralized exchanges are now trying to get into the decentralized exchange per game as a result of Hyperlid's success. So it, you know, if you were CZ in May or if you're CZ now, what are you thinking about the rise of Hyperl? What do you think about the the rise of these perplexes as a as it pertains to them being a threat to Binance's core business model?

>> Yeah, I think there's two ways you look at as a competitor, right? You like you either take the tact of like this is like unfair because these things aren't like subject to KYC and AML restrictions that like we are and like you lobby regulators to like do something about it. Um that does not seem to be the case of like what's going to happen or you sort of like build a better product cheaper and like you try to get it out there, right? fees should come down for all this stuff. Like the the vig that like pump and height like collect is like too high. I think like they'll that'll get driven down. So there'll be feed compression. >> Interesting. Interesting. Um Dan, are you particularly bullish on on a basket of of DeFi tokens of of majors? What does the CMS portfolio look like today?

What's your kind of outlook on where things are headed, let's call it, in the more kind of like midterm? um with with regards to a specific basket of majors or DeFi tokens kind of what are you interested in now? >> Yeah, I don't think there's going to like any reason to think that like the the current trajectory of the revenue generating sort of basket of names is going to change for the record. Like I think that's like still a great trade. So like I don't see any reason to like deviate from that until you see like there actually be some compression or competitor or like regulatory change that pushes it. Um but I just don't see anything right now. Uh, not to say they won't be, but like there's a stand like I don't think you got to do anything if that's like where you're allocated. Um,

I do think people are gonna So I I kind of just like complained about this in Twitter a bunch where like people like are like the death of the four-year cycle and like everybody's just going to like if you remember about eight months ago everybody's like it's only ever going to be Bitcoin again because like that's the only one with the DAT and it's got Sailor. Um, I do think the DATs are like a structural risk. I think that's going to like end like very badly for everybody at some point. I don't know when, but like as we get I mean there's a lot of them now. I think there's like 300 or so. Um and they're obviously like are getting shittier quality and like they're putting like crappier assets in them like as time goes on. Um so that's like not great.

And also all of it's dilutive to Sailor, right? Like the fact that there's more of them. Like this was always like the concern. People are like, well, like Sailor can just stop selling stock and then like can sort of like like he doesn't have to like keep crushing the stock and and the problem is like well people can just like launch competitors, right? Like the market's going to find a way to like if people are willing to buy a Bitcoin for a dollar 20 when it's worth a dollar like the market's going to find a way to keep like issuing$120 like and that's what the equity is. So like they're they're finding a way to like crush that. And you've seen a lot of these have like traded back to like MNAV now. Um it's really hard to get good information on that by the way.

Like all the dashboards are like just generally broken. Um but like the idea is just like they're they're trad like they'll trade down on days like crypto's up and then like you really know it's like compressing. Um anyway, sorry. But my point was that like I do think there's still like a phase of the cycle of like where you see people risk like grab risk like longer out the risk curve. Um I mean I there's a world that just happens to be memes, but I do think like you still see like a flow into like larger like cap alts and then like medium cap alts. Like I still think the cycle is like playing out accordingly. I think it's just like taking a longer. >> Yeah. So, the the news today with the ETFs, which seems massively bullish on the face of it, right now I you know, I

saw essentially if there's something that has a a perpetuals on a on a regulated centralized exchange like Coinbase, these things are basically just guaranteed to get a spot ETF. >> Yeah, I think that's the that's the way the Bloomberg guys put it and they're generally smarter than everybody else on Twitter for this stuff. Yeah, I so I saw the same thing you did. And so if this is the case, it it kind of it feels really similar to the principle that you just described with the DATs. It's going to be dilutive to the ETFs that are already out there, but it's going to open up the breadth of all the potential assets in this universe that have the ETFs and then it'll it'll kind of like have a wider funnel for the >> Yeah. I think like there was like a thought that in the beginning of the

year um like there was going to be a blessed handful of assets that like were able to make it through and like those would just be the assets and like that's where all like the flow would go. But it's like no no no instead we're going to figure a way to just put everything into like the trady vehicles. Um so I think that's like really what we're going to probably end up seeing. >> Yeah. I mean I had the Canary Capital CEO on who has been doing a lot of the ETF issuance uh or at least you know um filings and he mentioned that basically the end of this month is the end of like the review period the early into next month into mid-occtober is going to be the kind of like decision-making period and then his thought was that by the end of October uh we should see an onslaught

of ETF you know for the litecoins the stellar this the salon like the souls, the XRPs, all of these, you know, names, the Injectives, Pangus. I mean, it could be >> it could be everything. >> Could be 10 names. It could be 50. >> If they can if they can cobble together a couple million bucks for the filing fees like >> together. So, >> yeah. >> How do you think that that Okay. So, with the context of a lot of us thought that this cycle was going to be dominated by ETFs providing buying power to get us to like BTC 200K. That was not the case. is firmly the debts. How do you see the ETFs that are coming on for like the more esoteric uh cryptos? How do you see that impacting debt flows or

just general flows um in the in the context of debt being the main driver? And also in the context of a lot of the speculation this cycle having taken place so far on the public markets and not as much, you know, on chain or uh on on, you know, centralized exchanges and whatnot. >> Yeah. I just don't know how much like end demand there is for all this stuff. Um, and we're going to definitely test it. So, like we'll see pretty quickly. I I just don't know if there's like a demand for like the 50th like altcoin ETF, like who's buying it. Like where's that like flow coming through? So, I don't know necessarily how much they'll be like we're going to tap out pretty quick, I think.

>> Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. Well, I mean the supply will be there, but like yeah, like if somebody wanted to buy Avalanche already, for example, they would have bought Avalanche. like it's not that hard to get exposure to avalanche, but I suppose like 401ks, pensions, these types of investors perhaps, but those these types of investors are likely not trying to allocate to like longtail crypto assets, you know, like I don't know, Dan. I mean, >> I don't know. I mean, if it's there, maybe they trade it. Um, or they buy a basket of it. Or you got a guy, maybe you got like a long short ETF, altcoin fund.

>> I don't know. I I'll tell you this, though. The issuers are making a ton of money, so they're going to keep doing this. >> Yeah. But at a certain point, we're going to run out of demand as more as we go deeper down the risk curve. They're going to continue to push them out there. But at that feels like it's going to be the signal of kind of like the beginning of the end where it's like, okay, well, we have a lot of these they don't have a lot of flows coming into them. And so when they're there, what what h like it's not th this isn't driven by leverage and credit like we were talking about earlier like this this >> well it is a little bit >> by you're right like it's not the same way >> selling selling the stocks.

>> Well I mean like I guess it's not like leverage but like you don't know who the individual like I guess you don't know the leverage profile of the individual like dad buyer right like they may just be like it could just be like getting rolled into like margin financing like inside the brokerage and you have no insight into it. I'm not saying that's necessarily happening, but I'm saying we have no like we have almost no visibility into like parsing that out anymore. >> I get maybe just point blank. Do you think I mean we're com relative to >> I don't think that's happening. >> Right. Right. So that would mean that the system is a lot less levered than it has been in previous market cycles at least at this at this current point.

>> Yeah. I'd say if >> Yeah. >> Interesting. So I I kind of have had this thesis that I think that it'll be it'll be a slow slow decline in buying for for a lot of these DATs and I think this is probably a consensus view and then there's going to be >> the ETFs as well. >> Yeah. And then there's going to be some blood on the bottom, you know. Uh do do you expect >> well these DATs are some most maybe all but most of them are going to trade under MNAV? >> Yeah. And then do you think that they'll be forced to then sell their their ETH, their soul or their Bitcoin to, you know, try to get back to premium or what do you think that they will do?

>> It's going to be in a case by case basis, right? Like it's going to depend a lot on like what the governance and management looks like in any one of these dads. >> Yeah, >> there's like they're not they're all and it depends what their debt looks like if they have any. It depends like it depends on so many things. You got to remember also these things all have like some shitty core business too that they were like previously doing. So like there's there's like a real world that like I don't know management goes look like we did this crypto like thanks I'm going to sell it and I'm going to go try to run whatever I was previously running again right like they they're not beholden to like doing the crypto thing forever.

>> Yeah. >> Depending on like the case, right? Like these things are very nuanced in that like everyone's a little different. >> Yeah. Would you say that? So, so there is a possibility of like these guys are actually more patient and they don't have much debt and so they don't have to go sell their crypto to cover that debt and they can just kind of wait it out until they they really just have the patience to let the market reappreciate back to where it's sort of at equilibrium. >> That's another possibility on >> the ones that just like sold stock and bought crypto where they can just wait.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. But like I don't know like management might >> what we're trying to get at is like last cycle there were so many forced sellers that has caused so much PTSD and it seems like this cycle even these they may not be forced sellers in the same way I think is what the market's trying to answer and understand. No, but they may not be forced, but they may decide to, I think, is like the thing, right? Like just because like somebody's not like, "Hey, you're getting liquidated. Do this." Doesn't mean like they won't make the same decision down >> 30% to MNAB or whatever the hell like the metric like you want to like call it right?

>> Yeah. >> Um, yeah. Just switching gears a little bit, I I'd like to get your perspective on this whole uh denominator going to zero thing. like that seems like it it could also just kind of rip this into a whole another paradigm where all of a sudden DXY continues to depreciate. We're just going to just turn on the money printer and and then you know these things end up running a lot higher than maybe we we think they're going to if things don't trade under MNAV and they don't become forced sellers. How important to your thesis and and the operation at CMS is like a inflationary view and generally like how do you think this how do you think that plays out over like a shorter time frame because I

think like we all kind of got into this like we see where inflation is and and it's time to own assets but a lot of times that that's kind of the thesis on a long-term view and it doesn't really play out maybe as as slowly then suddenly and it's still playing out slowly. So, how do you how do you, you know, rationalize this on a shorter time horizon? >> We don't I think like anybody who thinks they're like on crypto Twitter talking about like how they know the macro picture is just like lying to you. And like all these funds that go and do it, they go and blow up, right? Like it's hilarious. Um, so just don't do it. Like we tend to think things in like relative terms, right? Like why do I want to own X over Y? Not so much like do I want to

be like allocated to dollars and like I have no idea like what Euro dollar is going to do and like I don't even know anybody that has any idea, right? Like I'm so far from that like decision making person and like having edge there. It just like doesn't factor in. >> We try to just like think about the world that we know which is like the crippling which is like honestly like a lot of this dad stuff like we don't have like a lot of insight into right like none of us like really have like ever like we all had jobs in Chad Fi at one point in our lives but we're so far removed from it specifically like this like sector of it like we don't necessarily have great edge or knowledge of like what's going on. So a lot of it's like just like speculating. What we

do know is like how it's going to move spot around. So like that we can like figure out but like we're not necessarily like how does the governance work like how does the SEC like think of these things like what is the listing like that's stuff's like out of our wheelhouse. So I don't we don't like we just generally don't think about it is the answer. >> What like do you do you carry the a a scarce asset thesis as well? Do you think it's just kind of like whatever like like h how do you maybe just curious how you see the Yeah. Like the gold trade, the Bitcoin trade, the real estate trade, the freaking uh land trade, the you know the rare art trade.

Like it's all kind of trade. >> Yeah. You want to own risk assets. Like that's just like the end of the day. And like just don't deviate from that. And like don't like you guys are 26 or whatever, so this is like not even in your like thought process, but like as you get older at some point you got to be like, "All right, I need to like own like enough like less riskier assets such that like my like timeline doesn't like blow up." And like that's just sort of the I mean it's like the same investing logic that like people have been doing forever. It's just like just nobody owns fixed income anymore. You just own degrees of like other riskier assets. >> Yeah. And so you you guys are much more thinking about how can we position for relative market share growth within this

industry within risk assets and so >> even even smaller niche. It's like how do the pieces like inside the crypto universe like grow relative into size of each other like that's like much more what it is. >> Yeah. And so you guys are looking at some of the different sectors, payments, stable CH chains, stable coins where I mean there's also like the revenue meta that Andy mentioned earlier and the hyperlquid trading pump thing like revenue meta. It's like I sorry I don't mean to cut you off but like it's just like like companies making money is suddenly like a a meta time. It's like a for the for the moment >> and so >> yeah like where are you seeing relative market growth? What are your trends that you're thinking about?

>> Yeah. Bullish on companies making money. Yeah, >> I mean that that's sort of like evergreen I think is like the revenue meta. So I wouldn't I wouldn't call that I mean like right now like a lot of stuff is being like structurally driven by like where this like the debt flows are at any given time, right? Like I mean Salana ran up the last three weeks because the you had two large DATs raising and deploying like so that was like kind of the trade. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was. Yeah. I mean, Sani came out and said publicly that he was going to do that and then >> Pant and he did it. But it's like funny. It's like right like these the guy comes out. They're like, "Hey, we're going to buy a billion dollars of like I don't know, pick whatever coin and like then

they go and do it and people are like wow." I was like >> it's like Trump doing the same thing when he's like guys like he tweets like stock market is going up like just get on the ride. It's like all right but these people talk you just listen. Sometimes >> I don't know like nobody's hiding anything like they have to disclose it like yeah I think I think sometimes it's a little bit easier. >> Dan everyone wants exposure to stable coins. You haven't talked about this much. I don't know if you've done much venture into like the plasmas the stables the arcs these types or if you did the circle IPO or what that is but everyone wants exposure to stable coins.

>> So I worked at circle for five years so I am very familiar with like sort of that's how that's um we we also we did this we invested in plasma. Um I I mean that's a great that what is that September 25th now? So you got a week that'll be >> it's tra at seven bill premarket on hyper open. >> I tend to discount heavily what the like pre-market like pricing is. So we'll see when it opens. Um like I'm look it's worth something like it's a data point but like these things tend to trade away like up and down depending on like where those like marks are. They're pretty thin. There's not like a ton trading there. Um so we'll see where that comes out but that's like a good way to get exposure to it. Um I mean historically like people would use like Tron as like

a proxy to sort of you can get I mean you can buy Coinbase and Circle in your like equity sort of account like I own both so like it's just like a way you can like get exposure to like stable coins from that side of the house like people want to complain about like the strengths of whatever the business is but that's like a pure way to do it. Um and then like I think these chains will be like another really good way to do it. Um plasma probably going to be the first of like material. So those are like good ways to get exposure to it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's really not much else. I mean like Sky and Maker, you know is >> Yeah, but it that is a stable coin, but like it really isn't, right? Like it's >> Yeah,

>> it's a it's a dead instrument. >> Yeah. >> So, I don't know. Like it's a little riskier, but there's another way if you want to like get in like it's just like not as pure sort of the way to get into it. >> Yeah. I mean, I think this trade's going to be or this this trend, let's just call it as a trade. you know, a stable coin market cap right now is about 300 billion, maybe 280 or so, 270 in terms of total uh supply. I I believe in I think we're we're getting close to the 300 billion mark. I think we'll get to the trillion mark some point in the next like 18 months. I I just like plasma pseudo tether equity. Why do you need a token? Why do you need a new chain? Why is there ARC? Why is there stable? Like

>> cuz everybody wants to try to be the one. Yeah. There's going to be a rush of these things, right? And like you can either try to pick a winner or you just spray and buy them all. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. But like plasma at five bill for retail I I don't know like you know is this thing going to trade 50 bill? I mean I don't know. It's just like >> got commitments, right? >> What is the stable coin chain worth? You know >> if there's one it it's a it's a hard question because like is it one and is it only one stable coin? Like how did the fees acrew back? Like what is like the velocity? It's I don't know. I would say right now if you put a gun to my head and you're like all right like there's one tether stable coin chain

like what's its valuation I'd say like 12 to 15 billion like so it' be like where I'd be willing to pay for it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Interesting. accent knowing like what the mechanics are like even going to look like for how that thing like acrews value back. >> Yep. Um regardless if it does feel like stable coins and as a result their underlying infrastructure where wherever that may be is one of the more sustainable sectors like going forward over the next 6 12 18 months >> rates don't get cut in into like you know by 2/3 you know what I mean >> but like those businesses grew big when like rates were low like they make less money but like it's a problem for circle because like they live on razor thin margins like tether just can like has to like stop buying like dairy farms in

like South America like it's like like they're going to be No, they they I mean they have so much money. They're just doing ridiculous with it. And I love those guys. Like I issued a ton of Tether back in the day when I that thing first got started. I have nothing but love for that team. I just But like they they have enough like they're going to be fine at rates at 1%. Like it's not like they don't have a systemic risk to the business. >> But some of the newer stable coins that are a little bit smaller that don't have as much scale and and operate at thinner mar they Tether's able to operate at thin margins. The other guys if rates get cut may not survive that. Oh, they're gonna have to cut materially like headcount and like get like cost down and stuff, but like Yeah.

>> Can you tell us some more like ridiculous things about Tether? They're buying. I didn't know that they were buying Dar. >> They did. They bought Oh my god, I gotta look it up. They bought >> They bought a steak in uh Juventus, I think, or in one of the big soccer teams in the uh Premier League uh FC F like a Spanish league. Barcelona. >> They paid They paid 600 million for a South American farm company. >> Yeah. which like is like a dairy farm. >> You bet. >> I mean, they got Look, they can do this stuff. I mean, like how much they bought like a couple billion dollars with gold.

I mean, like >> in Bitcoin as well. Yep. >> In Bitcoin. >> I feel like sometimes I feel like they're like, "We just own so much of this Bitcoin stuff. Like, we just got to buy some other >> Yeah. >> Go look at Go look at the Tether Jobs Board. It's like all AI stuff. They're like getting into that, too." >> Yeah. Wow. >> This is like the new new bank of like the modern age. >> Yeah. I mean, like at some point they got to diversify. Like it got so big. start issuing mortgages. >> Man, the the story that that the Tether had with Bitfinex back in the day, I used to read those Medium articles. Man, it's just so crazy how they survived this whole thing.

>> I like to think that they were always above Solveny, but I've got a pretty deep down feeling that I think that in the early they admitted they weren't when they issued Leo. >> They've they've they've ced to that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So Dan, I think we just got a couple more minutes and I know that you know you've been very uh very open and sharing your time and we appreciate that. Um man, I think like from my end the like the you've answered and we've talked about a lot of things that I'm currently interested in. My main thing is like what happens next? Like it's September, end of September markets ripping. You know, we got DATs buying.

Like are we topping soon? Is there a top cycle? Like what the hell's going on here? >> Well, so there's some pretty big TGEs coming up in the next month. So, I think that's gonna be >> Interior Plasma Fogo. What's the other anom? There's a bunch of stuff that's like raised a bunch of money that's like going to hit like the tape in like the next 30 to 60 days. So, I think a lot of that'll like drive some volumes and some like interest. So, we'll say Bitcoin's so big it's just going to trade with equities. I I don't think it's going to have like it's too much idiosyncratic like it's just like trades like a tech stock.

>> Okay. But do you see Bitcoin under 80K in the future? >> Sure, why not? >> Okay. Above >> I don't know. I don't know. It's It's a volatile asset. Yeah. >> I mean, you know, just trying to just trying to just trying to, you know, assess where you're at. >> Like if you woke up tomorrow and Bitcoin was like 80K, would like you'd be like shocked like you'd be like, "What happened?" But like would it be like Yeah. But would it be like out of your like realm of like possibilities? Like >> No. No. It was more of like do we get to like 160 180 and then go all the way back down there at some point? >> Sure. Why not? >> Yeah. It's all It's all well within like the the path of that thing.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Does it get an idea of like what your secular thesis is like? Okay. So, stable coins, right, are like a sustainable thing. What what else what other sectors do you think are going to sustain? >> Yeah. I think the big ones are going to sustain. Like I think that's like a pretty there's enough things going on that's diversified that those are like going to maintain as businesses. And then like obviously people like love to like gamble. So like you're going to have some version of pump or that maybe that will go back to the exchanges just listing tokens and like that's like the way it sort of like and then people are going to want leverage so there'll be like people for looking to like leverage trade. I think those things will all persist.

>> Yep. CMS Dan I am going to butcher your your last name. >> Matt just call me Dan M. >> Danm, thank you for your time. We appreciate you being on and uh looking forward to the next couple months in the market in in just all these big TGEs. Plasma notably as well as the others. Thanks for your time, man. >> Yeah, no worries. >> Thanks. Alrighty, guys. What a segment from CMS, Dan. Great guy. Really, really in the know. Uh he really knows what's going on. And yeah, guys, what a segment from Dan. Love the guy. Really, really good insight. It's been been a fan of Dan since I mean it's been a been since 2020 really. I mean, it's it's

unfortunate we didn't get to talk too much about some some some of the actual happenings in the per world. But guys, that is it from us today. We will look forward to seeing you guys tomorrow. Huge huge days coming up for the roll up. We got two big announcements coming tomorrow and Wednesday, guys. We'll see you there. See you on the stream. Thanks for tuning in and peace out, guys.