Robinhood Says Blockchains Will Become the Market

Transcript

Bankless Nation. I am once again joined by Johan from Robin Hood. Johan, good to see you, my man. >> Good to see you. How have you been? >> Good. It is a fantastic time to be in crypto. It's a fantastic time to have one foot in crypto and one foot in Tradfi, which is why I wanted to bring you back onto the show today. Also, Robin Hood and Robin Hood chain definitely seems to be the center of attention in the crypto industry. First question, Johan, as we get started, how busy are you these days? It's been busy, but I think it's good to be busy when you're in crypto. It means that you know the market is up or that there's things going on and that people are excited to build. So, uh it's been a lot of fun to be honest.

>> Uh today we are recording the morning of the innovation exemption out of the SEC. This is on the backs of the failure to uh of clear of the clarity act to proceed forward and then the next day we get this innovation exemption from the SEC about the tokenized stock uh movement happening on chain. How does the innovation exemption impact you guys? What you guys are doing at Robin Hood? Is this for you? Is this for you what you guys are building or is this for somebody else? >> Well, two things. One is, you know, pretty sad that the CLY act was kind of uh killed uh a few days ago. So I think uh we still need to have this federal level regulation so that things are not

constantly changing and so that more and more institution can feel confident about building uh in crypto for for the long term. Um obviously super excited about the the innovation exemption. I think it really means that tokenization is also ready for the US not just something that we should keep doing um overseas. So, uh, for us, it mean that we can bring a lot of the products that we've been building for a long time on shore. Um, and and that's really where we're going to see, um, companies like Robinood being able to have their traditional offering and also crypto and merging things together. So, really excited overall. Um there's still a lot of details to kind of understand from the exemption, but so far it seems like

it's fairly um open to really create this tokenization world that we've been talking about for for so long now. So um I'm pretty happy about the the the text so far. >> So the Robin Hood tokenized stock product is not like a onetoone representation of an equity. there's some uh some lossiness because it is a debt security not a it's not actually the stock and as I understand it with the uh innovation exemption from the SEC they're trying to make a lane a pathway guidance for people to make actual tokenized securities that have a very high fidelity relationship and what that

includes is permissioning and KYC for the ability to trade which is not exactly what the Robin Hood tokenized stock product is. And so if if Robin Hood does lean into the innovation exemption, is it going you guys going to have to build a new set of products that do comply with this innovation exemption in addition to the pre-existing Robin Hood chain stock tokens? Is that is that the path forward that you guys see or what how does this proceed? Yeah, I think it's a little too early for us to to share our plan there, but I I think it's right that we want to adapt to the regulation of whatever country or products are like to and and a lot of the reason why we built our own chain

and our own stock tokens and our own wallet is to actually be able to control this type of compliance requirements that we have depending on the region. And unfortunately, you know, we don't have a regulation framework for the entire world. So every countries has different um compliance and and so we have to adapt to that. Um to your point on the the stock token so it is a representation one to one. So every time someone buy a stock token uh we mint uh the token and at the same time we buy the stock. Um so you know on that front there is no concern to to have uh when there's a lot of tokens being minted it means that we're buying a lot of the

stock of whatever company um that that people are acquiring the tokens of. Um that being said I think what the the the exemption is is talking about is a little different from the dead security token that we we created and we are going to see how we can adapt um exactly to to support that that use case. But I think for us what's important is making sure that people will be able to get the right token at the right place. Um you know we we already have this issue currently on stock tokens where you have many issuers you have the X stocks you have the on stocks and etc etc. Um and so a lot of that require better UX and UI so that people can understand how to

acquire the right token and and how and I think we are going to be able to do a lot of that for the customer. We know uh if the customer is in the US for example so we can show what token is appropriate for for them. Um and then we'll have the right market making uh pools and system in place to make sure that we can adapt to to the region. The activity on Robin Hood chain with the tokenized stocks has attracted some of the attention of Tradfi CEOs. Some good, some bad. The AMCC CEO came out loudly spinning obscenities, calling it uh contemptable and vile. The HIMS CEO on the other hand said that, hey, what you guys are doing is pretty cool. They liked it. Um, are you guys having like conversations with

CEOs about tokenized stock your guys' tokenized stock products and and what have people been been saying beyond the two CEOs that we know about on Twitter? >> Um, outside of the two big uh public discussion I think you know they they were trying to attract a lot of eyes on on their company but um so far what what I've received is a lot of email of people asking to tokenize their stocks uh from a lot of these traded companies. I think a lot of people are seeing the advantage of it. Um and and again like we are buying the actual stocks uh under it's not like we we're making it of thin air. So for a lot of people it's actually a good thing that we are making it more accessible and that we have these stocks available in 120 plus

countries where a lot of people can cannot actually easily get exposure to these stocks otherwise. So I I think you know overall it's was a bit of drama on on Twitter but we haven't really seen any complaint in in person uh or we haven't received anything on the mail or anything like that. Um I think our our goal is to make sure that people understand exactly what's going on. If if you look at the metrics on the chain uh we had a day with more than 1.2 billion in uh in stock tokens volume. uh we have many days where it's over 500 million. Um 70% of the trading happen on weekends or outside of the exchange

hours. That is really what are the the signal showing that tokenization is bringing something on the table which is 24/7 trading instance element global access. Um, and I think that's what people need to focus on and and a bit less about the um the the technicality between oh we should use this version or this version. As long as it's packed one to one, I think that's what matters. The thing that makes me laugh the most to be honest is um some companies that are talking about this are also behind some of the stable coins that are actually the same concept, right? You have a one stable coin. It's not backed by $1 bill.

backed by treasuries and equivalents. That's exactly what we're doing here where um we have one token that is backed by the stock and I think that's what matters. Vlad tweeted out that the stock tokens are going to get an upgrade with uh the ability to have voting rights and inind redemption and and I think this was in feedback to some of the concerns of the AMC CEO. Would you say that this uh upgrade to the stock tokens, the ability to vote in shareholder governance or or do inkind redemption, is this is this more about just kind of appeasing the concerns of some trady CEOs or is this more like an actual product upgrade that unlocks new

possibilities in the stock tokens? >> No, it's always been uh on the road map. So the incarn redemption for example um we announced it during our our event in London. Um uh you know I was on stage and I mentioned it that it was coming >> um first for us was in redemption for market makers so that they can more easily move between charty and and defy um and then to make it available to to more the the retail customer. It's it's a bit more complicated because of the the structure of different brokerage accounts across the world. Um voting rights is also something that is always going to be interesting, right? Like the reason why you want to own a stock is

not just for the appreciation, it's also the the capacity of being able to to vote. Um the the reason why it was lower in the in the road map is just because we need to have adoption. uh you know we have 175 or 170 million of stock token issued right now and we prioritize all the major market cap. So the amount of votes that are um going to come from these tokens don't have a ton of impact on on the company at this level of adoption. And that's why for us the the real focus has been to make sure that uh we bring all the use cases of DeFi. You can use your stock token as collateral or you can use them in different places.

Uh you get uh tight pricing no matter the time of the day. like that's the kind of stuff that I think we need to to really nail before focusing on these lower um priorities. But overall we know how to do voting rights. We have actually a company it's called uh say by Robinood where you have this connection with shareholders and you can um ask question about the companies. You can see the different documents you can vote. Um so all of that we know very well how to do it. It's just a question of of timing basically. You talked about the uh the pretty cool metric that 72% of Robin Hood stock token volume is happening after hours and on the weekends. Pretty cool unlock. I think everyone in crypto is very ready for the

24/7 365 market world that's coming. We're actually recording on the day that the SEC is having their 24/7 trading round table. So, we're going to be able to see the some of the discussion after that. >> But there are some uh mechanical questions that I have about this. And so one thing that we've seen so far uh is that there are some Robin Hood stock tokens that dislocate in price over the weekends because activities happening on the weekends in crypto. That's we like trading on the weekends and then price gets dislocated. So can you talk about how that price gets relocated when trading hours open up? Are market makers involved with this? Is this what inkind redemptions is for? How does that kind of settle out when the activity on the

weekend dislocates from the normal stock market? Can you kind of like walk us through the flow here? >> Yeah. So, so there are two type of pricing divergence that you will see. You have the one that are uh going to be because it's earlier than what's you're going to see when the market opens. Um that's going to happen especially when there are news hitting on weekends or on Friday night when the markets are closed. uh potentially the price will change and then on Monday um the price of the token will stay the same but the price on the exchange is actually going to to adapt and and and merge with the price of the token. And then you have the opposite um issue, the one that you've seen a few weeks ago where it's more about the fact that we didn't mint

enough of the token. So there's a bit of a a crunch in term of how many tokens are available and how many people are trying to buy the tokens and so when the market opens again we are able to mint again because we're able to buy the actual stock again and so therefore the price converge. Um on the second point for us it's it's something that we're working actively on. We've been on boarding a lot of market makers. Um you know there was a 3 days weekend uh what was it like 10 days ago where it was also something we were very concerned about because we we knew that this type of issues could be even exacerbated uh because of the fact that it's three days not just a two

days weekend. Um and so we we spent a lot of time to make sure that there was enough liquidity on the market and and we didn't see that uh divergence happening. And so that's that's basically what needs to happen is just like making sure that we have more and more market makers, more and more pools available for people to actually use. Um you already see a lot of pools on unis swap for example where you can land your stock tokens and so we need to make that more accessible and more open to everybody so that um this this type of pricing action will will converge correctly. Um it's something that you see in also traditional markets. Um, for example, uh, you know, the the the prices on ATS sometimes diverge a bit from the prices on exchanges. Um, that's

kind of just the financial market in overall. And so we we just need to make sure that we can build uh correctly around it to to avoid as much as possible. >> Okay. So this this is a mechanic that has been solved before in other venues because there are different places that liquidity happens and so you guys are just with Robin Hood chain adding a new one. But the fundamental problem of relocating price across different venues has been solved before and this is really just a matter of bootstrapping the systems to build that out on Robin Hood chain. That's what I heard from you.

>> Yeah, exactly. And you know the more pools available the more market makers are going to be interested in the arbitrage opportunities and and therefore the the pricing issue will will be solved. Um but you already saw it in the past few weeks. Um the price have been pretty competitive. um sometimes it's even better than on traditional exchanges uh which I think is also the exciting part here is that we are going to unlock different type of market makers from different region and it's going to be able to to really create this uh price uh competition and improvements because of that. Do you think there will ever be like an inversion in which the after hours offmarket liquidity and price discovery is actually so incredibly competitive

and strong that it actually becomes the dominant venue simply because of all the properties that crypto people believe to have in blockchains. You know, the 24/7, the immutability, the permissionlessness, the access. There are all these strong properties that benefit blockchain based trading. Do you think that we could actually get to a world where there's an inversion and the normal trad afterthought and the blockchain market is the primary? >> I think so. I think in a few years we are not even going to talk about you know this new market versus traditional markets. I think it's just going to be one market and it's going to be based on blockchain. Um that's why you're seeing a lot of the current exchanges adopting this type this type of technology right

and they they are making sure that they can uh compete because the current setup where you have to uh shut down after specific hours you have to do maintenance where you have to reboot everything every once a week like can't uh compete with something like a like a blockchain that is made for um 24/7 and high frequency as well. So, um I think it's definitely going to to happen. When exactly will will depend on a bit. >> I've been trading crypto for almost a decade and I've used so many different wallets exchanges aggregators different frontends over the years. And I'm always kind of looking for the same thing, just one interface with deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets where I can access all the markets like per earn yield, trade confidentially, and still control all my

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I've been following him for years. And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes. Each one we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle. There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday. They're 30 minutes, they're short, they're punchy. I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most. So, let's do it together. Go subscribe to this podcast. Search the DeFi Report wherever you get your podcast. YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes. There's a new episode waiting for you. Now, >> we're coming up on two months on Robin Hood chain. Robin Hood chain is approaching 2 months old. I want to just uh spit out some quick metrics here.

$2.1 billion in tokenized assets. Uh over a billion of that is stable coins. $165 million of tokenized real world assets. $1.5 billion dollars of value deposited into apps. That's 500 million into Morpho, 330 million into Athena, and 300 million into Uniswap. 700 million 750 million cumulative transactions across 14 million unique wallets. And Robin Hood is about to pass $50 million in gross fee revenue and $44 million in profit for Robin Hood. All of these metrics has to be at least somewhat of a surprise to the upside. Is that am I right, Johan?

>> Uh I I don't know if it's a surprise. you know, we we worked so hard on this chain for for many years now. So, I think we're just really really happy about the metrics. I think what we've been more surprised was uh the developer activity. uh one metric that you haven't mentioned but um we've seen the chain being one of the top three if it's not top one I think currently um where there is development being done or active there where you see a lot of teams uh developing on it and I initially thought it would be a bit harder to convince people to build on on the revenue chain um so so we spend a lot of time creating an ecosystem from the beginning to make

sure that the chain will be ready for whatever you need to use you have the right custody protocol, you have the right uh you know taxes and all this stuff. Um so so that's been really surprising. I think we what what's the most exciting for me that we are just at the beginning you know the the integration with the Robin ecosystem is is just started uh we have the earn products that you mentioned um that is from the main app but we haven't done much more than that. Uh we have the Robin wallet that is available for the revenue chain that is also doing well. Um, so, so I think you know what's the most exciting is to think about all the new stuff that are yet to be built or that are built but we haven't already seen them yet. Uh, and and I think

that's what's really cool. We we spend a lot of time to build our tokens in a way that is composible. Um, so that you can actually create things on top of it. So some of these like minkcoin that are pegged on on the stock tokens for example is something that I find pretty cool and uh they that was not something that we were expecting but you know people thought about it and so I think that's just the beginning to see what are the new stuff that people will come up with. >> Yeah I think the paired memecoin stock tokens has been just a source of a ton of attention and virality in the crypto space. What's it been like on the Robin Hood side? What have you guys been talking about sharing in your guys' Slack about the memecoin pair stock? I I want to see what it's like on your guys'

uh side of the aisle here. >> Um I don't know. I think the first time was really just um just that they were created and and there was a lot of site where we were trying to look at the smart contract and make sure that it was working the way we were thinking. Um, I think some of the the more fun stuff are all the memes created with either Vlad or sometimes even me. Um, where like he's fighting with Wolf or Bears or whatever. So that's that's been also really fun and it's a it's a big part of like uh uh posting. Um so so yeah, we have a lot of that.

Uh there's a a growing uh amount of non-tokenized stocks, but tokenized real world assets. You guys have tokenized gold on there, but there are some people asking about tokenized commodities uh beyond beyond just gold. Is the plan to also add on things like tokenized copper and tokenized, you know, real estate if the if the time comes? What what about just beyond tokenized stocks? Yeah, we think the tokenization framework works for almost everything from private equities. That's something that, you know, we've been pretty vocal that we want to work on and and that we're working actively on. Real estates, arts, um more commodities. We have perpetuals that are available already on silver and and more. Uh copper is something that I

I receive a lot of message on. >> Yeah, there there's a there's a meme coin out there that for some reason really wants and needs to tokenize copper. I haven't figured that one out. >> Um, but you know, overall for us, the idea is that if we can tokenize or if we can partner with somebody that has tokenized assets, uh, we want to do it. So, for example, tokenized gold. Um, I think this one is a bit easier because gold doesn't take as much space. So, so there's a lot of options there. Uh, silver is also something that I think we are starting to see more and more uh, issuer doing. Uh, copper, I don't think I have seen too many yet, so we'll have to to keep looking. What's your favorite tokenized stock on Robin Hood chain?

>> Uh, you know, it's hard to say because u Robin Hood is not on it. So, I can't uh I can't say Robin Hood yet, but um >> wait, Robin Hood hasn't tokenized its own stock on Robin Hood chain. >> Not yet. Uh mostly for the the way that our system is is done uh with the fact that the issuer is part of Robin Hood and that we're a public company uh is a little complicated. >> Are you like trip a trip a regulatory wire or something? >> Right. But we are working actively on it and at some point we absolutely want Robin to be part of the the tokenized system that we have.

>> Uh that's a nice little treat to keep in your guys' pocket. I'm sure that's going to be fun when that gets released. >> Uh what what about uh the the core app? Uh and so there's a lot of crypto companies out there clamoring to get in front of more people. Robin Hood has the distribution. what goes into like the Robin Hood selection process or criteria for choosing partners for onchain products. >> Um it really depends on what we are trying to build. I think the starting points for us is what are we exactly trying to solve. Uh usually we don't want to just launch a product that somebody else already offers. We we want to make it better. Um so for example when we launch our own product we wanted

to make sure that the the rate will be way more stable for a longer period of time. Uh we also wanted to make sure that the rate will be higher and we also wanted to have some insurance to uh cover loss of funds in case of a small hack or something like this. So usually that's how we we start kind of the the product decision. um we we want to make sure that we find good angles and then we start going down the the rabbit hole of like what do we want to build ourselves uh what is like the thing that we really think needs to be done by our team and be verified and audited by our team. What are the thing that we could actually move faster by partnering with somebody? Um and so

based on on that you will see sometimes we partner with a lot of people sometimes with nobody. Uh so for example our own product we partnered with Moro as a lending protocol instead of trying to build our own. Um we also partnered with um for for the chain we partnered with OCL who was kind of the uh company that is also maintaining arbitrum uh to make sure that they could maintain a lot of architecture so that we don't just like try to do things that we are not uh the the most expert on. Uh but for example the stock tokens something that we really really cared about um that is all done in house. We brought our own smart contracts. We um got audited from uh a firm to make sure that everything

will be done correctly um at multiple levels. So you know it kind of depends of the product uh but usually we we try to do a lot of things in house when we can make a differentiate uh product. So the US citizens, US uh residents are still some of the most restricted people ironically enough uh in the world of just blockchain and crypto just because of just the regulations that that are like Robin Hood stock tokens for example aren't available to us traders. What clarity or regulation are you really looking for from the SEC? I know we just got the innovation exemption about stock tokens today. So maybe it's that. But even beyond that, I'm sure there's even more things that you guys could use

guidance or clarity on to unlock access to US citizens who are using the main Robin Hood app. What would if you had like a a wish, a genie came out came out of bottle and you guys had like you had a few wishes to make, what would unlock you guys the most in terms of providing cool new products and services in the main Robin Hood app to US citizens? Well, the the first thing to be honest is this uh innovation exemption that just um got published about tokenization is huge. Uh you know, it really means that the train of tokenization that has been going uh everywhere and uh has been taking a lot of people by surprise on how big the movement is can actually

also now be in the US and and that's the next stop for for products for sure. Um so that part is is huge. I think the the one you know caveat on this is that it's it's a exemption for five years. So you know there's a lot of question around that and you also have limits on how much you can trade the assets. So there's a limit on the number of assets and there's also a limit on the the volume of the asset. Um so so it's not fully uh you can go all in or something like that. Um we also still have a stateby-state jurisdiction currently. So you have the we have a New York bit license for example. Uh we have different licenses across the US.

There's a new license regime in California. And so what it means is that there are differences uh for customers based on where they they live. Uh for example, you can stake asset on Robin Hood almost everywhere in the US except four states. Um so that's the kind of thing that can really be helpful for us is to have one regulation that we can look into and offer products at at the um for for everybody basically. Um there are still a lot of question around um staking like I just mentioned but also around lending protocols. Uh there also question around um DeFi activity what what you do on DeFi and how does it get uh reported taxes and and all these kind

of things. Um and then you also see a lot of question happening uh currently at kind of DEX/port Dex level where um can a company like uh like a DEX that is outside of the US can can they operate in the US and how and all this kind of question are being kind of discussed. So the the more we get clarity from both the SEC and the CFTC, the better we'll be able to offer products that are available outside of the US to the US customer and at the same time still offer the production that the US customer need.

>> You talked about uh offering experiences, offering products that no one else uh is able to offer or just hasn't really been built yet. There's a race going on with the perpetual in combination with real tokenized stocks. Uh and so there is a loop that's created when you have both the act the actual underlying not just a synthetic being traded on a perpetual along with a spot market. And so say for example you have tokenized Apple on a spot market but then Apple is also traded on the perpetual 5x 3x 10x whatever having that both in the same venue unlocks so much permutations of possibilities. you can create strategies, you can combine

things really just like the innovation space explodes. Is that something that Robin Hood is like gunning for or are you kind of like still letting that be up to the per platforms to build that out and then and then if you guys want you guys can integrate it? So like are you guys in this race too or are you leaving this up up to the to the actual perpetual platforms? >> No, we we've been in the in the race for a long time. So um you can do exactly what you just mentioned on on lighter for example uh we're an investor and and a partner um where you can use our stock tokens on both the spot and and the per market and create strategies. You can also do a lot of things on Arcus um and we have integrated with lighter for example on our wallet. So you can do a

lot of things that you just mentioned pretty easily using the same kind of UI UX uh that we have. Uh we also have a per platform outside of the US currently. um in the in the EU it's a licensed platform um we have uh crypto asset but we also have commodities um on it and and we also have ETFs um and so you know a lot of the things that you're discussing is is things that we're also looking into the the main question for us is how do we do it uh in a compliant way within the US and how do we offer it with the best UI and UX but per is something that we've been uh doing for a long time so so we know the product well and we know our customer a love of it.

So it's it's something that we we're definitely into. >> Given the pathway, having clarity on the pathway, would you would we be able to expect per to appear in the main Robin Hood core app? >> If we get the right regulatory uh structure, we will absolutely have perks in one shape or form in the app. Um if you are EU customer, if you're somewhere in in Europe, um you can already trade crypto stock tokens and access perin the same app. Um there are different criterias to make sure that the customers are eligible. U but it's something that is already within the same app and we really build a cool UX and um UI experience where you can set

your take profit and stop loss with a slider. Um so it's very simple. Um, then you can see the charts moving at the same time. So, uh, definitely something that we will want to do here. >> I want to ask about your guys' relationship to ETH. Uh, so Robin Hood chain uses Ether, the asset as gas. Not all big layer 2s do that. Sometimes they use their native token. Um, how how does Robin Hood crypto and the Robin Hood team just view Ethereum and Ether specifically? And would Robin Hood ever buy ETH and put it on the balance sheet? Um we we don't have plan right now to buy E and to put it on the balance sheet. We we do have a lot of ETH right now generated with a chain. So that's uh

one thing that we are working on. Um >> when when you generate the ETH with the with the chain fees, do you just hold it? You hold the ETH? >> Uh it depends. Sometimes we sell, sometimes we hold. uh it kind of depends of of the amounts and the the time of the the year and a lot of things that um uh our our financial team could tell you a bit more than than me. But the at the end of the day for us, one of the reason we wanted to build an L2 was to be able to rely on the decentralization and the security that Ethereum has has built. And there's a lot of things going on, right? you have the you have the rise of AI that is going to change and find new bugs and vulnerabilities and so

a lot of work will need to happen on every type of software that is running on a computer. Uh you have quantum that is also something that you know is coming and we need to make sure that all the crypto chains are going to be safe uh in the future for it. Um so there's a lot of work to be done and and the other reason we really liked it uh was to have this uh way to be able to bridge between all the EVM chain very easily and reduce the cost and and all these kind of things that is kind of the reason we did this L2 and so for us it's part of that also that we want to um you know generate some of the fees that are going

back to to the L2. I know it's a smaller portion of what we we generate, but that's kind of the structure of of Ethereum and rollups. Um, but we want to be very active with the foundation. Um, we are regularly meeting with them. We're also regularly meeting with different groups that have created recently like his lab and others. Um, and so for us it's it's really important to keep this uh uh coordination. Well, um, we think that we are becoming a bigger part of Ethereum. You know, if you look at uh the usage of the Ethereum chain through stuff like Robin Hood chain, uh we are taking a larger and larger part and so we want to make sure that we are uh contributing to to the

chain as well. >> Johan, I know it's a very very busy time over in Robin Hood. What are you excited about when it comes to Robin Hood crypto and Robin Hood chain that I haven't asked about yet? Is there anything else on on the the future roadmap or just things that you guys are working on that I wouldn't know to ask or things that you're excited about? >> Uh right now we're doing a lot of cool stuff on on a Robin wallet um to for example not have to pay gases as a as a customer or not have to worry about bridging between uh chains. So we do the crosschain for you. Um we're also helping the discoverability of asset to be to be a lot better. Um, another thing that is really cool is around our combination of AI and crypto. Um, so we

we launched recently Agentic trading through through AI. You can connect your agent to RMCP and you can do a lot of new strategies that uh frankly uh I I didn't know uh I could do because I didn't have the knowledge but my agent uh could find a lot of ways and at the same time we have all these gaps to make sure that you know it's a separate pool of money. you have different check uh that you can put in place to make sure that the the agents act like you want to. Um but I think that's going to be more and more interesting especially in the world of uh the chain of the rapping chain and the tokenization you will see more and more of this like arbit arbitrage opportunities and and pairs of things that we haven't thought about

doing before in traditional markets. So pretty excited to see how people are going to start using it. >> Johan, I know you're a busy guy. There's a lot of things to build. I'll let you get back to it. Thanks for coming on the show and talking to me about all things Robin Hood chain and I think everyone in crypto really appreciates what you guys are doing out there. >> Thank you so much for having me. See you soon. >> Bank Nation, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. You can lose what you put in, but it's not risky enough. The institutions have landed, so we are going even further west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone. We are glad you're with us on the bank's journey. Thanks a lot. Heat. Heat.