The Rise of Frames, Farcaster, and Headless Marketplaces | Jesse Walden & Antonio Martínez

Transcript

you B basically when when you have an an internet that's entirely you know composable in a permissionless way the the the limit is just like imagination right it's like what what will developers do with all this open data all these composable sort of apis that you don't have to ask anyone permission to use you know the limit just becomes imagination and that's why it goes from looking like a toy to being you know to changing the world is like developers will just come up with really impressive stuff to do with it Hey Ron if you have been listening to Empire you know that Santi and I are fed up with unaffordable fees and frustrating transaction speeds that make the onchain experience basically unusable so the arbitrum team reached out and they showed us the platform they

showed us what you can do on arbitrum whatever you're doing you can experience frictionless transactions at lightning speed on arbitrum so head over to portal. arbitrum doio and check it out what's up everyone before we jump into today's episode I'm excited to share Empire's first ever security partner harpy is the best tool to prevent your wallet from theft in real time Harpy is not just a security solution they are a piece of Mind solution but don't just take our word for it Harpy is the only wallet security solution that protected 100% of its users from attacks like The Ledger one and Q4 which was an offchain signature attack to learn more about Harpy click the link in the show notes or visit Harpy doio SL Empire what's up

everyone before we jump into the episode little plug for digital assets Summit coming up in London March 18th to 20th tickets are pacing so far ahead of schedule that we had to decrease the discount codes so instead of Empire 20 it is now Empire 10 head over to the website digital asset Summit Das London March 18th to 20th use code Empire 10 and get 10% off your ticket see you in London all right everyone welcome back to Empire we have uh Jesse from Varan Antonio back on the show from spindle guys welcome to the show thanks for having us yeah yeah of course um all right so we are here to talk about here's like my ideal outline for the show that I want to cover uh frames have taken Twitter by storm uh or I guess I

you could say kind of forecaster by storm frames with this thing on forecaster everyone's talking about them I want to talk about them but I think oh we should do that in the context of uh Jesse's recent piece and kind of framing of these things called headless marketplaces so Jesse I think I'll pick on you to kick us off before getting into headless marketplaces there is a uh idea that you P I think that you piggybacked on which was headless Brands I don't know if you remember this 2019 piece from uh Sam Hart and I think it Laura and Toby um yeah the other crew yeah love love that piece yes exactly so I was like ah Jesse man of culture here all right so there was this 2019 piece about headless brand so what do you mean

by what is what is headless mean to you here yeah well first I should say there's another headless thing or you know term of of art out there which is headless CMS which you know developers thought I was talking about that and you know other folks thought I was talking about headless Brands um and and to be totally honest when when I crafted the term headless Marketplace I wasn't explicitly thinking about either of those two things I was really just thinking about smart contracts um that was sort of the the inspiration for this term and and I to get into that but I guess I'll start by just sort of offering the definition which I gave um for headless Marketplace which basically a Market that leverages Global onchain identity money and data while

Distributing the market locally wherever user's wallet already is and I'm I'm I'm reading this from a tweet that I posted I kind of was just thinking on the Fly um and and at the time that I tweeted this you know frames hadn't launched yet and I actually wasn't thinking about um forecaster I was thinking about telegram Bots um and you know how one thing we've been seeing is there's these Bots that you can use on telegram that give you a wallet and through that wallet you can interact with any smart contract on chain you can you know swap on Unis swap on you know on any on any deck on salana um and so I was just sort of mowing over the fact that in your telegram group chat you can access This Global Market

of onchain liquidity with your local identity and all the data you know that you have on on device and so on and never visit a third party application to do that and this has been a thing in crypto for a while but I think the the key difference now is we're starting to see apps come to users where they already are and and those apps are hitting critical mass in terms of distribution telegrams got 100 million plus users and now we're starting to see forecaster you know hit an inflection point um in terms of its daily active user so that that's why um you know excited about this idea um it's sort of an old idea that's that's new again and as I publish it I was thinking you know the people who were around for the web 2

version of this they're going to they're going to read this post and they're going to be like yeah duh like this you know this this idea has been around for decades right um so maybe that's a good segue for Antonio I don't know well before maybe before we jump into that okay so a headless Marketplace is this Market that leverages onchain identity and you're basically money and data and distributes I think the key word here is locally so instead of going to the marketplace you're going to actually where the user is and where they want to spend time how is this different than what the world looks like today outside of crypto well yeah today like most marketplaces are destinations like you have to go to a website you got to install install an app or um or

something like that and and and when you do that you have to sign up for a new account you have to put in profile data you have to put in your credit card um so there's all this friction basically to to you know participating in in a Marketplace you got to go there and and put in all this stuff um and and with headless marketplaces the marketplace comes to you and I think the the key difference between web 2 and web 3 is when the marketplace comes to you it's coming to your wallet and and what's in your wallet is an you know an identity money and profile data that's already there it's all pre-populated your entire onchain history is there you know the the Assets in your wallet are there and and so the friction to you participating in a new market is

basically zero right like you don't have to go to this destination and put all the data it it's all just it comes to you and it's pre-populated um so that that is I think why frames are well we're going to get to frames but that's why headless marketplaces I think are so exciting in crypto is that you know it on the one hand it reduces the friction for developers to bootstrapping liquidity and getting part new participants to jump into a new market and from the perspective of users it's just a better experience because you you know you don't have to jump through all these suits what's the difference between your okay so traditional Marketplace world looks like this you go to a website whether it's Airbnb or Charles Schwab or whatever it is you sign up for a

username put in your password put in your address credit card all that kind of stuff and it that's the destination the marketplace is the destination and what you're envisioning is you're saying basically instead of thinking about a Marketplace as an app you're thinking about a Marketplace as a network that can be embedded anywhere else that can basically be Ed is that right yeah exactly like and and and folks um who are deep in crypto will will maybe you know know exactly what I'm talking about here when if if you go and open your metamask or Phantom wallets in those wallets you know one of the key functions is the ability to swap and you know so there's a Marketplace embedded in your wallet um what's happening on the back end is those wallets are you

know taking your order and they're going routing routing it onchain or you know they're routing it somewhere but they're bringing the the liquidity to you right so they're and and you know that liquidity can be permissionless accessed by anyone so that's probably the most primitive example of a headless Marketplace it's it's the swap function in your wallet um but you I think you can extend this idea really to any type of marketplace that is on chain um and any type of um sort of user interface that has a wallet embedded in it would it be fair to say that Unis swap was the first headless Marketplace yeah that's I think I mean maybe not the first but probably the most you know well major with okay right the the most well-known

and the most widely used headless Marketplace I think is is is unis swap right because it is the Smart contract all the liquidities on chain and then there's lots of different front ends that have integrated it um and and brought the market liquidity to wherever you know that interface's users are why is this such a big unlock so let's say let's maybe pick so the three of us on this call understand maybe the unlock but let's say I'm uh maybe not as crypto native and maybe I don't play as much in crypto world I'm like look marketplaces I don't know I kind of like going to airbnb.com they got a nice UI for me and it's and it works well or like I trade my stocks on on TDM air trade and it's all good for me I log into my TDM air trade account like what is the unlock here in

like the 10x better user experience well I I think you you could approach you can approach answering this again from the developer perspective and then from from the end user perspective and I think for Developers it's it's a huge unlock because it's a it's a new distribution Channel and you know one of the hardest problems any you know anyone building a startup faces is how do I get people to care about this thing or find out about it and play around with it and um with with headest marketplaces if if there are destinations where you can ship your Marketplace to the user where they are that means you have a new distribution channel to go and and and acquire new users um and and that's that's huge right I think um Antonio will be able to speak to this but when Facebook kind of had open apis and allowed users to or

developers to build on top of the platform it was a huge Boon um for for a lot of projects that did that including Spotify um and others right they they got massive distribution through this channel so that's the developer side of it I think on the user side um it's it's the fact that you can have fundamentally better user experiences and this goes back to what I was saying earlier when the market comes to you and it's tightly coupled to your social feed so that that's unique to forecast and telegram where you know the marketplace is happening in a social setting in your group chat in you know your social feed um this this allows for new kinds of marketplaces that are kind of social first um and we haven't seen a ton of innovation in in Social over the last

decade there's these kind of like dominant platforms um you know that don't have a a really sort of I guess fast-moving feature set um and so you know better better and new user experiences are going to get opened up for for end users can I can I that for a second answer the question a little bit like the cool thing that this enables is what is an embedded inline experience which is really weird in web 3 right like just to speak like a marketer for a second in web two I saw a thing in my social feed or somewhere I click on it I go to the landing page I have to sign up for the thing I have to enter a payment credential I go to the experience and then there's a confirmation page right and like my company spindle like or or you know billion dollar companies like

amplitude mix panel exists just sit there and document that funnel but what if we just compressed that such that a friend of mine shared hey I'm really vibing to X piece of music and then there's actually like a frame with like a Spotify with like a play button and I can actually do it right in there or you seted the example of like how is this different than Schwab I'm reading a piece about how Facebook jumped 18% today in the market and there's actually a widget that says buy 100 shares of Facebook and it just works right like right you could like you can enable things with this that like don't exist in web 2 and as as proof of lack of existence think of what Amazon would pay for a oneclick ad that they could show you like you abandon the thing in the

shopping cart you go back to the New York Times and like oneclick purchase it doesn't exist because you can't enable it there's no way do it but you you can natively do it in web 3 Because as Jesse said all the identity I mean the money side the identity to login has been kind of outsourced so to speak to this consensus mechanism that everyone can just have access to and it's permissionless right like getting to the Facebook thing and at some point we probably want to get into that story a lot of the reason why Spotify didn't invest in that relationship is because they understood at the end of the day Facebook held all the cards and so you know it was very difficult for them to start build very Facebook native experiences because it was in this permissionless sort of trustless environment you you know do should I go

into the Facebook like flash I'm gonna like let me just share one sto story for for people who haven't been following like headless marketplaces and didn't read Jesse's post yet and haven't been following frames and forecaster the way that I tried to explain it to a friend uh the other night over dinner is uh in inside of your in I actually think Instagram has done a good job of this is um previously you had uh in uh Instagram like in Instagram if you saw like a I don't know a t-shirt that you really liked you had to leave and then go to like shopbop or something and Instagram actually has embedded that shop poop is a Marketplace and like these clothing stores are marketplaces for for clothes and uh now inside of Instagram you can basically do that native shopping inside

of Instagram and you never have to leave Instagram and imagine a world with I think the vision for headless marketplaces is okay well you can kind of do that for shopping inside of Instagram imagine every single place where you spend time if every Marketplace that you ever wanted to buy anything on could be embedded inside of that place where you spend time is that a fair way to frame this totally yeah I think I think that's exactly right yeah and think about just to be a hard-nosed marketer for a second think what the conversion rate must be on that unit right to buy the thing it's way better than jumping through five hoops and it also increases time on site on the original publisher site I hate to sound like an NBA but it's kind of a win-win in the sense that you're still stuck

inside forecast or Instagram on the same time you're you're actually converting like you are generating revenue for the outside partner right it's it's and for the and for the user right it is just it's just easier right so it's just like it's a win-win win for everyone right win-win win the three wins all coveted yeah uh Antonio take us into Facebook the year is 2011 T take us in here right so I had this whole like Web Two Boomer flashback thing when I realized that the frame implementation was using a thing called open graph which you know for those younger than 30 probably have no idea what what I'm talking about but back in 2011 I was like a mid-level PM in Facebook on the ads team there were six PMS on the ads team the ads team was kind of you know

kind of a ghetto kind of isolated from the main product or we're trying to the ad system didn't work basically mation was terrible given how much usage there was and suddenly out of the blue Zuck the platform team the product team people you know way more important than the ads team at Facebook said said we're going to do this thing called platform and open graph what was the point of that so again think back the like button right like this little button with like the little thumbs up was all over the web so you would read a thing on the Wall Street Journal like it and it might show up in your feed the idea which is kind of a good one was well why don't you expand the vocabulary of verbs to you know watched read engaged with whatever like the you know all the verbs

right that one does living your life online and the cool thing would be to have you've got the social like the web was being made social right I was expecting web one wasn't social like you'd go read a blog post and maybe a buddy commented on the thing in the comments but there was no National there's no real social network embedded in the web right so and then at the same time you had these kind of siloed media experiences Like Jesse mentioned Spotify Netflix The Washington Post reader a lot of media was coming online in a very in a very real way you were you were not going to movie theater you watching on Netflix so why not combine the two in interesting way because some of these things are social listening to music is very social actually right or engaging with a piece of content or commenting on

a political opinion is very social or antisocial but either way you're engaging with it with other people so you have this thing called open graph and what it amounted to is basically the frames implementation just to a technical for a second you've got these meta tags on top of the page that say you know o you literally OG right open graph like listen read this is the piece of content left Arrow it was a way of kind of communicating back to Facebook or whoever the main publisher where this thing was going to be embedded in that like hey these are the details of my experience right and so why didn't it work it was like a massive flop by the way it was like a disaster the team also built a bunch of AD stuff on top of it called sponsored stories whereby you'd be able to boost the edges that Spotify

spun off so like the idea being that some content producer would boost the edges of their none of it worked and why didn't it work um it wasn't this engrossing experience that Jesse is describing right like it wasn't the case that somebody was vibing to a thing in your Facebook feed and then there was like a play button and you can join them listening it wasn't an immersive experience it wasn't the fact that someone published a thing about why Apple was a good investment and suddenly I could engage with it it was still clicking away to go to this other app and then maybe you saw oh you know your friends are also using spotify but it wasn't a very unmeshed experience and it wasn't you know permissionless to use a web free lingo like it was all API calls at the end of the day of Facebook and no

one really trusted Facebook to like curate this thing also it was it was spammy people users didn't like all you know seeing the fact that I had listened to the same song 10 times in a row I remember somebody snarkily replied we get it Antonio you like cake stop listening to it right because it would post all the edges and then of course Facebook saw the growth and said it was impacting negatively growth so they started downranking the open graph edges and then all these companies basically got a little screwed invested in this Spacebook relationship sorry I followed that until then why was it hurting them it was annoying it's funny they used to be the main feed and there's thing called Ticker on the right that was literally all the open grass edges and it was literally just what everyone was doing in the world but it was it was terrible

it was like imagine venmo times 100x like literally every little petty thing that people were doing on the outside web your entire social network you see it like at some point it's overwhelming you don't want to really engage with it it was it was it was it was super noisy okay weren't just doing on Facebook but any Antonio bought a bought a movie pass on fantango okay Boom come comes up right and yeah it just didn't work but and then again what what also didn't work is what is working for frames and I'm G to sound like a forecaster show for a second but just to get to the frames thing you know frames is almost literally like an iframe in a away but again the identity and the payment is such that I can transact with the thing the experience inside frame which to be

clear is not a farcaster experience very directly and rumors are we're goingon to have real onchain transactions soon through frames which I imagine they're going have to enable and it's just it's just way more interesting we've figured out a way to run appy inside app X in a seamless permissionless way where the user can just engage and do the thing and again like Jesse was saying this is web this is very web three native web three people like in a telegram bot I don't know if people had the experience you know you get a bot message and you start transacting on the defi exchange through your like messaging app right and it's it's just this very embedded native experience that I think is a very web communative thing that again is almost impossible to engineer in web 2 which is why people are freaking out

about it because it's it's actually quite interesting I got a I got a shout out um so Mark andreon started a company that like he's he's not well known for which was ning which was a social networking company and he has this blog post I can't think of the name of it right now um where he he basically described sort of what what Antonio you know the description Antonio just gave of frames where you you build app X inside of app y like that was the vision for for ning as as I understand and I think it was trying to sort of um improve on on uh you know early iterations of this idea um the blog post I'm thinking of basically describes web 3 but was written in in 2009 or something like that do an do you know do you know do you know the one I'm talking

about I'll have to find it I'll have to find it after the show but but anyway Mark Mark's been thinking about um about this idea for a very long time and I remember when I first read this this post in in question um probably 2017 or 2018 it you know I immediately thought this is exactly what a theorum enables and um and and and I think you know fast forward now you know 20 24 um we're finally starting to see it happen and and like the reason people are so seem so excited at developers in particular is um that you know composability is is sort of what we're talking about composability of one app inside of another and that composability is something developers have been really

excited about in crypto for a long time myself self included right like the fact that I can take smart contract a and you know compose it with smart contract B and no one I don't have to ask anyone permission to do that I can just put the two together um that's that's been really exciting for developers but now what we have is composability for end users right which is in in this frontend experience like warcast I can start using some thirdparty app and under the hood it's we're connecting all the smart contracts but at the user experience user interface level we're starting to you know have seamless integrated experiences and and that's what Facebook never really got to um in the first iteration it was it was you know a one way door they were kicking out you know activity feeds that were kind of noisy

and then you know you couldn't do anything with them you had to go out of leave the site so just that that's where it kind of hit a wall and and web 3 potentially does not it's funny this uh frames is coming at an interesting time with um actually Chris Dixon's book being released as well totally which hearkens back to kind of describes this it's a good book people should read it if they haven't read it already it's um you know what what web one looked like very open web two also relatively open at the beginning then web 2 starts to get clamped down and now we've ended up where we are today right Facebook Amazon Google Etc basically control you know 95 plus percent of the western uh internet so maybe Antonio take us back to 2005 energy like 2008 energy whatever it may

be like Web 2.0 Ajax open you know I don't know if you were doing that stuff in 2005 whatever whatever was open the open web energy like what what did this look like in 2005 I was a gr student of Berkeley and the most stressful decision in my life was what pastry to order a cheeseboard in the morning those were those were those were the days of Utopia I wasn't worried too much about tech at the time um but uh I mean I can definitely remember the time more like 2008 or nine where I'm I'm literally in South Park in Soma in San Francisco by the way and like Twitter was invented like a 100 yards that way and literally every company GitHub is over that way like every company that mattered in consumer web was within five blocks of where I'm sitting right now and it was

super exciting right like watch you know you'd see Brian chesy of every walk down the street all the BCS were in the blue ball across the street um it the feeling that and I mov here from New York right the feel as an urban comment the feeling that you were at the center of something really big like it was pretty clear that like all this stuff is going to change everything and you know a lot of tech is like super shilly and crypto in particular oh we're g to change the world but then you like I lived in Barcelona for a while after Facebook and it's like all of downtown Barcelona's Airbnb Hotel basically right like literally which isn't great for the City by the way but it's um or you go to Uber and there's riots over the Uber drivers who are obviously outside of the taxi

paradig it's like it you know there were Downstream effects not always positive by the way of tech and it was just like a super exciting thing the the world was get your life is getting intermediated by this people forget that like I remember I bought the first iPhone I guess I guess it came out in 2007 and by the way I haven't actually tried the Vision Pro yet one of the guys in the office bought one but like the first iPhone actually wasn't that exciting and actually wasn't better than my Blackberry but eventually it did get there right after a couple years it was like oh wow this is like the little blue dot on the map was like lifechanging right we didn't have blue dots on maps um so yeah I mean it it feels in that way ex ex there's a natural gushing kind

of excitement about it um and again it's like oh wait you can wire together all these things you couldn't wire together before right it's kind of like when the App Store launched right the first iPhone didn't have apps by the way or not like third party apps but then once that launched it's like everything just went whoos right so it feels like this energy basically got it was a whoosh of energy and a ton of you know you talk about this area in San Francisco and everyone's building all this stuff and it feels like there was a moment in time when whether it's open graph or Twitter res sending a lot of the API access all of this basically all these companies had raised a boatload of venture money and they were they were all composable with each other everyone was building on them then they said oh crap we got to

make go make a bunch of money get our valuation higher and they just in one Fell Swoop just clamp down and kind of shut off this open web shut off the composability and that is what kind of turned into the internet as we know today and when I think of Jesse's post with headless marketplaces and I think of what forecaster is doing with frames this is a return to that internet Jesse would you say that's a fair framing of this yeah I mean c certainly that's the Hope right is that um and and I think it's it's it's more broadly it's not this is not just frames but crypto more broadly is you know a hope of returning to this more open permissionless composable internet and you mentioned Chris's book like that's what it's all about right it's that's that's he's making the case for crypto as this

return to the open internet um and and and and I think that's you know that he's doing it in part because you know people outside of crypto have this negative very negative perception that it's all speculation and it's all casino games um but when you start to see things like frames and and and forecaster you know give end users this visceral experience of the permissionless composable tech you know underlying technology I I think that you know that's really exciting because it gives you know it puts ahead on what you know what Chris is describing in this book in in a very real way um real I the the mark andreon blog post it's actually called um the the three types of platforms you meet on the internet um and it's from 2007 and he describes three different types of platforms level

one platforms apps run elsewhere and call into the platform via web services API to draw on data and services okay so that's that's you know basically what Facebook was doing right it's like the the apps run elsewhere they call into you know log in with Facebook and you get some you get some data through the API um yeah there it is so and then level two platforms the apps run elsewhere but inject functionality into the platform via plug-in API and I think that's you know that that that would be like The Limited very limited functionality it's like yeah know it's what you're describing on Instagram right like you know the app runs outwhere but you can press the buy buy now button for the t-shirt on Instagram and then the level three platform and this is where you know when I read this for the first time

I thought man this is maybe this is you know this is crypto Mark was describing you know blockchains um but in 2007 before any blockchain existed in a level three platform an app runs inside the platform itself the platform provides the runtime environment within which the apps code runs right so that's a blockchain right that you know ethereum salana are running the code and it actually you know I think the synthesis of this is is you know these level three platforms blockchains they actually actually Ena the full throated level two platforms that he was describing where you know the apps can run elsewhere but inject functionality into a front end instead of it being through an API it's actually through the level three platform the underlying blockchain why what enables this Jess uh

Jesse why is crypto uh crypto uniquely positioned to do this is it about the this transaction log is it about your identity on chain like what what is what is unlocking this yeah so it's it's it's kind of I mean well in short it's it's it's it's the thing that blockchains uniquely offer to the world which is they offer this permissionless Computing platform um on top of which you know users own their identity through their you know through which is in the form of a wallet they own their data which is associated with that wallet and is open for you know for anyone to to to reuse um and they own their money um so so developers can deploy any application onto these you know onto these blockchains you know Chris likes to call

them Chris Dixon likes to call them computers and I think that's a very metaphor for them they are you know they're blockchains are computers and they run software and then the users interact with them from the edges of the network and they own their identity money and data um and and so the result is you can bring you know you can deploy applications anyone can compose them into new experiences and then you can bring those applications to the users wherever they are and access those users identity money data and do all this without asking anyone for permission that's that's the big you know the big promise of of blockchains and it's I think what we're seeing with with frames does that make sense or any questions there no no that I mean yeah makes sense to me um take us take us deeper into frames so maybe I don't I don't know if

this is a question for Jesse or for Antonio what what is forecaster um I think a lot of people think of it as an app it's more of a protocol and then what what happened this week with frames sure I can take it um I mean I as a point of order you know I I guess you would use it for those interested You' go to warp cast.com to actually use the forecaster is the protocol which is the underlying layer again the protocol sort of app distinction um you know and warcast is is the actual app again it's the analogy every one sites is like email there's a there's the smt protocol and then there's Gmail that you use on top of it so again it really just to hit I was going to show Chris's book because I have a copy of it somewhere but like

Chris's whole thing is how this you know the protocol it's it's going back to webw in a way it's it's actually a piece of Boomer Nostalgia oh there we go there we go there we go I'll show it for I I've even got a baseball cap they sent me a baseball cap for it um but yeah the the so forecaster is the underling protocol a lot of which frankly is not on chain actually your identity is on chain but actually the messages are not they're actually in the centralized hubs and we're running one at spindle actually because we're doing some analytics over it and stuff but the the idea is that anybody can skin an app on top of it right so like and which frankly solves a lot of the problems that are inherent in social networks like content moderation you know pornography or bad content spamy Bots

like all those problems are in some sense solved at the app layer not at the protocol layer so you can post all you want but we're already seeing it by the way in warcast people are starting to you know Dum reply guy comments and Dan's like banhammer not banhammer but like down ranked them the feed right so the app just says look yeah you can use another app that gets you all the crappy [ __ ] if you want to see it but at least on warcast which is the biggest app that's be used on forecaster those those replies will not be seen there and so there are moderation tools to be clear it's not a it's not a free-for-all I started a channel on forecaster you can you can use what are called warps which are kind of an offchain point system currency and start a channel I am I am

the admin of that channel if anyone gets out of hand I boot them I down rank this stuff right so there is accountability it's not it's not a free-for-all it's actually way more polite at least now than than Twitter um and yeah the frames thing yeah again looks like an iframe if you know what that means basically a square that's exposed to another developer you literally just share a link to a site that has the appropriate open graph tags on it you don't even see it but they're kind of embedded in the site and then that gives you functionality so somebody as as a as an example I did in my post somebody ran a doom server inside wasn't a good experience it's a little slow trying to play Doom you know streaming through a through a window but the idea is they had like Left Right forward and shoot

buttons in the OG tags and so those buttons appeared in the actual embed and then the the server was streaming to you at a kind of reduced frame rate the actual Doom experience so you could actually see Doom inside forecaster which it's kind of aoke it's like a redit joke right like oh does but does it run doom and so like yes and the uh the engineer who did it Cassie has this hilarious bloglist just describing how she actually managed to get Doom running inside inside frames so that's the idea it is a PO it's what Facebook couldn't enable going back to the open grab conversation like here's a little portal to another app in which you're kind of auto logged in because you have an underlying you can ass a wallet to your forecaster experience so you have an FID which is like your Facebook ID right

like just your user ID but then you have an Associated wallet and that wallet is the identity so everyone again the web 3 is about getting everyone to agree on common protocols and standards in a world in which it's become these fums of of social networks it's like no we all agree that ethereum or optimism or whatever train you're on that is the identity system and if you don't like it well sorry you're just not you don't get to play in this Bond right and so everyone agrees that that ethereum addresses you and so they can do things like oh you know reveal to Mint someone sends you the mint and you actually receive it inside your wallet and you get it because forecaster knows what your wallet is I'm not sure how they're going to implement the transaction but I'm sure you're gonna be able to do

onchain transactions through through frames at some point and what that means is yeah potentially you know you're somebody's posting somebody's sharing a piece about I don't know some token that's doing well and you might actually have a trading widget right there with your favorite Marketplace that says hey click right here to transact and again the experience we said of like hey can I go buy you know Facebook stock if I'm reading a story about Facebook no like that'll never exist in web two it just it will never be implemented with the existing Web Two stack and web 3 it's actually not that hard to do um and so that's that's the frames experience and again it you know it's gonna get it's gonna get more exciting right like literally just today Dan launched video in Carter right so imagine can you have video in frames EV entry like literally

every app that you engage with on the internet can you have it embedded in another experience in a social experience with other people that's the exciting thing right that's why again it is the it is the ultimate open graph Vision or the vision of Mark I hadn't even read Mark's post that again was kind of impossible to engineer before but now it's possible yeah and just just want to add one quick thing I think that that was an excellent summary the um of of of the protocol and um the the thing that is critical to understand I really like want to tease out is you know web2 tried to do this and ultimately maybe face maybe there's some world where Facebook could have gotten there right like where they could have really enabled the like a seamless two-way API between like Spotify and Facebook and you could have

listened to your friends playlist right on Facebook maybe they could have gotten there but why like one of the key reasons that they didn't get there is the lack of trust between those two companies right because Spotify like really had to trust that Facebook wasn't going to screw them and they didn't and for good reason because Facebook did end up screwing them right um and and and so fear you know the reason this is so exciting it's an old idea that's new again and and actually can be realized is that the trust assumptions are eliminated right and that and that's because you know these applications that are composing together are on top of blockchains the users own their identity the users on their data the platform doesn't right so you don't have to assume um you know trust in in the third party at least and and and that's the

theory um you know in practice everyone's using warp cast to access frames right with warcast is a for-profit company built on top of the forecaster protocol and so you know in order for this to be fully true I think um you have to have some you know you have to have multiple clients you have to have um uh warp cast sort of honoring the protocol um and you know but you're so you're so timately subject to the rules of warp cast with in the warp cast client um but but critically the you know the frames um interop between apps is part of the protocol right so the trust assumptions are are are gone there for okay so frames feels like this neat little playful thing kind of right

now but I think there's a v you know you can I saw you can order Girl Scout cookies in someone's frame and it's kind of this it's a toy it's like what Antonio's talking about when the iPhone came came out like it a nice little toy okay cool it can like map me some like okay that's cool whatever um but uh pacy McCormick has a good good piece on this on on frames in uh in his not boring newsletter and he said look it's this nice little tool right like little little playful thing right now but this could be the first Domino to fall towards toppling Twitter killing Apple's App Store Monopoly or creating something entirely unique so paint that paint that vision for us like what what could this become well well I mean I guess the the first thing I'll say is like you know I

I kind of look at frames and all the excitement around it as you know this this like you know lightninging in a bottle moment for web 3 social right like we we really you know web3 social has been something people have been talking about for a long time um but but this is the first time you know you've seen a social app in the cryptos space get you know up into to the right daily active user account and that are retaining people are staying you know engaged here um and it's not because of an air drop or something like that it's because of some technical Innovation so you know whenever you I think you see these you know Antonio mentioned you know the blue dot you saw the blue dot on GPS like that was like an aha moment I feel like this is an aha moment for a

lot of developers in the crypto space about what's what's possible what kind of new experiences you know can be enabled in web through social and so I I hope certainly that this is the you know the first of many more moments of of of people building you know compelling new social experiences in in the crypto space um and and so farcaster is you know is today the dominant social protocol but maybe in warcast is a dominant client maybe we'll see more clients maybe we'll see more um more social protocols maybe you know for different media types for example um and and so you know coming back to your question like how does this get beyond the toy into into you know how does this change the world well it may just be that this is the thing that is the magnet for you know entrepreneurs to

come in and start building web in web 3 social because there's this sort of Playbook that's now clear on on how to you know how to do it how to you know get distribution and so on um so so that's a very high level answer to it but I'll park it there all right I mentioned them in the pre-roll now I'm going to bring them up again it's arbitrum Santi and I are really fed up with these high fees and we're really excited to have teamed up with arbitrum for the next couple of months on Empire as the leading ethereum scaling solution arbitrum now Powers hundreds of decentralized apps across defi herps nfts gaming and a whole lot more the team has showed us everything in the ecosystem both now and what's to come and we're really really excited

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wallet for free free at Harpy doio Empire that's Harpy h r p. iempire you want it to be even easier just click the link in the show notes it's interesting I'm actually thinking about this in relationship to blockworks strategy so like here like take one thing of blockworks there's we sell tck we have a conference that we host with the guys at bank list called permissionless and we sell tickets and the way that we might sell a ticket today is we'll we build a big audience on Twitter and then we will post a link to our page on Twitter someone has to click the event page then they go into our event page and they then click another button that links them out to universe and universe is embedded stripe where that user can then buy the ticket and with frames we could theoretically

just set up a wallet and post say buy a ticket to permission list and you can as a user on following following you know blockworks on on on foraster you can literally just buy that ticket in one click right there yeah and the ticket could be an nft on Zoro right like it's it's they literally could be like M this nft on Zoro and you know pay five bucks for it and and and that's your ticket and you're just hitting the mint button in the feed so you're you're you're you're promoting it right right there um and yeah as Antonio was saying like Pro if you do that probably the conversion is gonna be like a lot higher gonna sell out way faster yeah because there's way l or you could offer 10% off the ticket if you recast it before buying it for example

and suddenly you have viral growth and everyone's res sharing it to get 10% off the conference free right like you can enable that sort of virality like the the social distribution record be becomes I mean people already doing and it's it's slightly spamming it's like oh re recast before you can before you can mint because that that that's all public data that you can actually use and embed into the functionality so yeah that's the the whole natural referral mechanism I can post the thing and get a kickback I mean think of the ads implications for this for a moment right that like everyone who has a channel is gonna have their own personal ad Network they share a link it goes to a thing they actually get paid if somebody converts it's um you can see a whole you can see the flywheel yeah actually that basically

leads to this Domino of what I was trying to get at I think with like P's post which is um like far off like what what is this what is the what happens next and then next and then next is like I guess you could imagine a world where like you could set up this headless smart contract that's triggered by like I don't know all these different app you have things you you play with all these different apps and if you a user does something on warp cast um then and they have or some someone does someone has uh I'm making this up on the Fly someone has a thousand followers on warcast and they make a trade on Unis swap then on then on open C this nft actually unlocks for them or something I'm making this up

on the fly but totally that and and that's like I think you know that's like what you're describing that's composability is if this then that right like there's whole platforms you know there's there's if it you know if if this then that is is a platform that takes a bunch of apis from web two companies and let you compose these recipes right to do to do stuff like that that but it's super hard because you know you have like three different apis that are you know kind of different like hard to you know learn and interact with and you know the user data is silad between all those apps and and that's why these things in web two just never got that big but in in in web 3 you know all this stuff is on blockchain it's very easy to remix all this together all

the data is open you don't have to trust anyone right so so all all this stuff is um possible and and yeah I think you know what py was getting at is you know B basically when when you have an an internet that's entirely you know composable in a permissionless way the the the limit is just like imagination right it's like what what will developers do with all this open data all these composable sort of apis that you don't have to ask anyone permission to use you know the limit just becomes imagination and that's why it goes from looking like a toy to being you know to changing the world is like developers will just come up with really impressive stuff to do with it yeah uh Jesse how do you think about what's happening with frames and headless marketplaces in

light of Joel monro's 2017 or 2016 post if if you remember that which was um the bat protocol thesis yeah it's a good something we've been talking about internally as a team it is um you know like yeah like where where's the value going to be in in this ecosystem right and right well yeah it's so it's it's it's a good question so I think that um you know so Joel's piece basically makes the argument that apps are going to be really thin layers right on top of these very valuable protocols where all the state is um and and you know I think this was a reaction to web 2 where apps like Facebook are incredibly valuable companies whereas

protocols that they're built on top of capture no value right the protocols are thin in web two and the apps are fat so his argument is web 3 inverts that I think um I I think you know I generally agree with with Joel that web 3 in web 3 protocols um can be fat and can capture value um where where I'd say like my thinking is evolved since he wrote that post is is you know I don't know that um apps are necessarily thin I think you can have apps that um that capture value too in other words it's not necessarily a zero some game um maybe maybe a good example which is not you know related to forecaster and frame specifically but but I'll come back to those in a minute

a good example is unis Swap and you know Unis swap the protocol um you know tons of liquidity trades there right there's a today there's fees that are going to LPS um and there's a fee switch that may get turned on um and the protocol is just creating a ton of value for developers that integrate it like lots of people have already integrated Unis swap into frames metamask and Phantom have integrated Unis swap into the wallet right so the protocol is is um creating a ton of value for developers that are integrating it and because they're creating this value my view is you know they can step into some the flow of of that value that they're creating and they do that with LP the fees that are given to LPS today um on top of Unis swap there's these apps that I just

mentioned metamask there's Unis swap Labs they're all charging fees um at the app layer too and so you know they're monetizing their businesses and those businesses are sustainable it may be the case that these businesses are not um as big as web 2 businesses were because there's more of them there's more competition um and and and that's what I think Joel is getting at right is that the application layer gets thinned out a little bit and you know the protocols that under underly that applications end up being really big because there's you know a whole ecosystem built around them so I think I I think that generally holds true and in the forecaster ecosystem you have warp cast as one client one app um and you know that app is generating lots of data down to the

protocol there's already an ecosystem of thirdparty applications building on top of forecaster um I think the data in the farcaster network is very valuable I'm sure Antonio is mining it um you know for for for you know to to get insights that advertisers might be interested in for example um and so so that to me makes it obvious the forcaster protocol is incredibly valuable or and and probably only increase in value but the apps are monetizing too warp cast is already you know they're selling warps the inapp currency Antony mentioned earlier right so both I think there's opportunity for value at both the protocol and the application layer yeah it's going to be so interesting to see what happens in the consumer so I have some I have two friends who started a um a sports betting company and the

differentiation is um that it's like a it's got a social feed inside of it and you can see like okay jessee's betting on the Rams tonight okay like I'm betting on this like basketball game oh jessee's up big tonight like it's all very social uh I I love my friends and I love this company that is not the future though the future is sports betting inside of where your social feed already is I think inside of these frames or X number of other yeah well well it's like like tw Twitter surveys imagine you replace Twitter surveys with prediction markets instead of like you know people just voting with with their you know with a check box you can you can vote with money uh because the money is already in your wallet and you just do that in the same sort of for like form

factor that TR to presents a survey to you you can just like bet five bucks on the outcome and and do that seamlessly yeah and Antonio I see you must love this because I mean like the affiliate the affiliate mod it's like it just it's makes the funnel so damn tight so yeah yeah although I mean it still leaves open questions of like what is the native business model of it like who's the refer if someone refers a user that already have like how much of I it's an interesting attribution problem right of like who who actually drove that transaction and it's it's all very TBD and there's no Playbook and no one's well I think I think here let me pause it an idea of how this might play out Antonio I'm curious if if you'd agree or you know maybe there's some you know

historical precedent that that's going to undermine this idea but I I can imagine a world where um clients like warcast demand that frames give them some kind you know frames that third part developers building build in some kind of Kickback to the interface layer for any transaction that that happens through the warp cast client right so if you're minting an nft for example right through warp cast a client on top of forecaster and you're paying five bucks maybe warp cast gets a dollar or something like that and if you don't give them that Kickback they're not going to show your frame yeah yeah yeah so as as one comment on the warcast thing like it costs money to use forecaster by the way right like like Dan is starting to subsidize user gross

signups in something like 15 or so countries are free but in by by default I forget what it is it's like 20 or 30 bucks you have to pay for storage and the protocol fee so it costs money to use forecast which obviously is a break to adoption but you can imagine a free version of warcast in which actually The Advertiser the person who's putting commercial content on there yeah has to give a kickback that's another thing by the way the blockchain makes easy more than one person get can get paid right you can pay the actual publisher of the app you can pay the referer who referred the person you can actually pay the user a kickback or a rebate for using the thing right like money with programmable money you have lots more interesting business models which is not not how it worked in not only more interesting

business models you just have optionality for the first time in like what feels like 10 years like there's just there's no optionality anymore in Twitter and Facebook and all these platforms so that's very cool yeah one one one thing that's I think important to talk about with with regard to frames we' talk obviously we're excited you know Community is excited about them um but but you know frames are like they are a new distribution Channel they're not a product in and of themselves right it's like it's a way to bring your product to Market um and and so I think Dan treated something to this effect and I it resonated with me and that is like you know you still have to have a product that people want right and and Fram is just a new way to bring products to Market and get distribution your your

users it's the place it's like you're starting you're starting a cookie brand like it used to be do you want to sell these things on Instagram or open a retail store or do you want to go door too like another option for the marketer or for the founder whatever is you know let's build something big on warcast and go directly right so yeah exactly so you still need a product people want but I think the the the thing that's kind of important to tease out is that the types of products that people might want might change because of the form factor of the of the new distribution channel right so the fact that you can ship the product right into a social feed does that change the the design space of what kind of products you build uh because the the destination is a social feed right so

like the prediction Market example right like you know today if you go to poly Market or any of other prediction markets um most of them they kind of look like you know exchanges like they're like kind of protrader interfaces you know with with charts and stuff like that um if you're shipping a prediction Market into a social feed it probably looks totally different right it's like um you know because you want to take advantage of the fact that it's it's happening in a social feed so that's I think the the flip side is you have to build the product people want but also the types of products you might build that people might want change because the distribution is social first how easy is it that's a that's a really good point about that um yeah it's kind of like how like Instagram and

Facebook and stuff changed the fashion industry by pushing it towards fast fashion and folks like Zara like came out of that so um how easy is it to build one of these like like blockworks blockworks is built on web two rails like WordPress and like you know we've got you know our our web like you know we're not we're not built on on ethereum we're like a web two company basic in operating in crypto how easy is it for someone like us to do something like this well important to note like frames didn't exist even a week ago I think they they they launched last Friday we hosted we hosted a hackathon our office on Sunday um so so certainly like the tooling is is nent right it's getting built out pretty fast but um you know as I'm I'm unaware of like a frames Builder

I saw a request for a frame that that basically is like a wizzy wig you know what you see is what you get Builder to so you can like make it super easy to build a frame that will happen I'm sure like within it probably already exists already um so it's GNA get super easy to build these things um yeah that's cool yeah like first for frames we we we built one uh Zack the the local Zoomer built a wizzy wag frames editor it's actually quite easy um and again it's again all the all the weird open graph stuff is embedded in the website so it just looks like a website like this isn't weird like when you go to warcast it's not like where's the frames button you just share the link and the frame kind of happens right because when it gets loaded in the feed it goes and

reads the page gets the O tags and says oh [ __ ] this is a frame by the way expose this button expose this action then I go press the button I sign the message it goes and so there is kind of this back and forth between the sort of frame server I'm I'm sure if this takes off and becomes the way to distribute product there's going to be a whole frames of a service industry people who do nothing but like framify your your website here come the wies thees yeah yeah oh yeah oh there's G to be a WordPress plugin to framify the whole thing yeah of course yeah that's super cool um okay how does this change the importance of brand so if you can do everything everywhere brand in my mind becomes 10 times more important but I'd be curious

how you guys think of this I mean or or or actually brand I'm going to let you guys I'm not actually sure where I stand on you you guys go I'm going to come up with my when you say brand what do you mean do you mean like social capital and trust or do you mean like Burberry and BMW like what do you mean by brand um well like Airbnb versus vbo um like Airbnb has a stronger brand so people go more people go to airbnb's website but now if it's just embedded inside of a little frame like some it's

it's less about okay I'm sticking with this Airbnb idea like it people won't go to airbnb.com anymore they will be Antonio has a house and he's selling it on he's renting it out on Airbnb it's gonna be oftentimes through Antonio's distri Antonio's distribution or Antonio's like uh you know foraster or Twitter whatever whatever you want to call it so the brand of Airbnb is less important the brand of Antonio has all has gotten even more important than it part is today yeah I think questions of trust is interesting right because you know in this trustless environment what that what that means actually in some sense there's more trust right in the sense that there's not implicit trust between app X and Y

but you have to know who you're transacting with right and it will be a little scary I mean we're all Being Framed spam boys but it's a little weird to like click on a thing and do an onchain transaction through somebody serving a thing through a frame that you don't necessarily have a first party relationship with at least not initially that's going to be a that's going to be a little iffy right there's going to be some wallet drain attack or some weird [ __ ] that happens there which is always true every technology some of scam that's just the way it is um and you're going to not do that unless you actually trust either the person showing you the frame or the the who's enabling the frame right well I think the TR the trust there is going to come from um from from whatever

interface that you're using just like warp castes are like fil filtering out spammy posts right like they're going to filter out spammy frames too um and we we have a portfolio company blockade that's like laser focused on on chain security and they're already all over frames and like you know trying you know yeah trying to make sure that like you know it that frames can be easily safe at you know for end users um on the question of brand like my my take on on brand is I think it maybe it's um maybe there's an unsatisfying answer I think like on the one hand strong Brands like they they will benefit from frames because it's a new distribut new way to get the brand out there and just reach your audience and if people already love your brand like they're going to interact with it you know where they

already are and that's you know goes to what we were saying earlier like you reduce the frch and you're going to just have higher conversion and you have a strong brand like that people already love you know you're people are just going to engage with it more um but then but then the flip side is that um I I can also see it um sort of frames commoditizing certain types of Brands um maybe ones that are like less coveted or premium because um that the whole headless Marketplace concept right like you don't need to go to a third party destination that you already know you don't need to think of Airbnb and type in the website you can instead just you know access the marketplace where you could say you could type in you know I I want to like rent a house and it could

just show you the liquidity from the marketplace you don't know that it's aggregating that liquidity from three different sites from Airbnb from verbo and just giving you the results you know um where you already are right so I think it can commoditize brands that aren't premium that like people don't where people don't care as much about the the brand quality right and they just want the the liquidity it's like U you know flights and stuff like that um you don't really care about the airline that much right so um aggregators play a role and Frames could be like a channel for aggregation super interesting um I want to maybe end with Jesse your guys's thesis of the ownership economy and how that's evolved over the last couple of years and how headless marketplaces if

it all ties into this but anything else on FR frames or farcaster Antonio anything we we missed from you about any of this or no I'm just I'm glad we have a name for it headless Marketplace we it's there's been it's been irking me that there's definitely you definitely put your finger on something that it's like it kind of doesn't exist in web 2 and it exists everywhere in web 3 and I'm glad we have a kind of a name for it um so thanks for definitely better than better platform integration so uh yeah that's terrible yeah well well I do want to shout out Bounty Caster as I should have mentioned them earlier as an inspiration for this so B Bounty Caster is Linda Shay um and you know who who she's the founder there and so very early lind's very early user of of

forecaster um and is building this this Marketplace it's a it's a boun's Marketplace so you know developer and talent you can post you know 100 bucks to to go build this thing for me and you post it on forecaster tag the Bounty bot and uh and someone can can you know go and claim that Bounty and because both of your handles are also crypto addresses like you can the money can just flow you know right through forecaster to to the to then user so this was actually a big inspiration for me in thinking about how this Marketplace is cuz Linda literally built one on and probably the first one on far on the farcaster protocol where you could end to end sort of you know post a bounty um be be the solver for a bounty and never leave the you know the

forecaster experience that you're in you know which is mainly warp cast so that that was a huge inspiration and aha moment for me and I just want to to shout her out that you know she she obviously saw this way earlier than I did and anyway because she's building a you know she's building one of these things and has been for for a minute now um shout out shout out Linda how does how does this tie into your as's ownership economy thesis which when I think of variant is like has been at the backbone of variant since you guys started yeah I mean it was it was our it was our founding thesis I think um you know so so the key the what what is the ownership economy it's it's the idea that um you know next generation of Internet products and services are going

to make ownership the Keystone of new user experiences okay that's pretty broad what does that mean in in practice um it well so I think ownership can manifest in a number of different ways like the most obvious one to anyone in crypto is well you can own you know you can own crypto you can own you know a piece of the internet um in the form of an nft right tokens right token ownership is is a net new thing that crypto enables and we've already got you know a lot of net new user experiences um where that you know the token ownership is um a new is an unlock for new user experiences so like you know owning some digital gold owning uh you you know an NF a JPEG on the internet being part of a community of other people who own that jpeg these are kind

of new user experiences enabled by digital ownership um but I think it's broader than just token ownership um so you know we talked today about how your crypto wallet is not just where your money is but it's also where your identity and your data lives um and you know that that's another form of ownership um you you know in the past you've relied on third party platforms your identity and and they store your data um and you know you you don't own it they can take it away from you deplatform you and so on um so I think with you know with forecaster and Frames we're starting to see the utility of owning your identity your money and your data and that utility is well people can build new user

experiences that come to you right in the form of headless marketplaces um so so that's how it ties in with this this idea that ownership is going to be the Keystone of all these new user experiences it spans you know people owning a piece of the products and services they use every day in the form of tokens all the way to you know people being able to engage with new headless Market places because they own their identity their money and their data um and and so that that's it's all under it all fits under this umbrella and that's why the you know the thesis is kind of intentionally broad because we think this is like a really you know expansive design space nice cool as one as one comment on that can I can I I'll plug Chris's book again right it's called read write own for a reason right the

reason why he titles it that is that web one is about reading stuff blogs two is writing I tweet I I cast and then web three is about owning which you know owning isn't that new I there's been the notion of virtual ownership when it comes to IP and copyright for a long time right but like in a in a I've always thought of the blockchain as like a piece of technology from 2050 that dropped into the 2020s right in a fully virtualized World in which everything is digital how do you own a thing how do you sell a thing and own it like you own a house or like I own this iPhone well it's kind of hard to do actually at any scalable way like when when did you digitally own anything as like an average everyday user before web 3 well you kind of didn't right like maybe I

own the IP to chaos monkeys or you know Jesse founded a company he owns partially owns the IP in the in the company but common digital ownership of digital Goods was kind of strange and unheard of and not something that was typically it's not securitized exactly but put in a way that you can actually sort of get your grubby little hands on it and that's what web3 is about it's like in a world in which we spend our lives in digital repres pixels that we're stirring at right now more than like the real world how do you own that I mean what are nfts but kind of enforcing Rarity right and saying well this is like the rare ape who does whatever and before anyone laughs at the ape thing long story short I was shopping for a diamond a couple weeks ago and sitting there looking at the

four C's and it was like shopping for like a board eight right like diamonds are worth nothing it's all like a scam right but oh if the clarity score is H1 instead of S1 oh then it's like5 watch I thought this looking for a watch the other day I was like this like I'm I'm nft shopping right now yeah right watch watches your physical nfts basically right so it's like the blockchain is just taking it into the digital realm things that have existed in kind of various nent form and other markets yeah well go ahead Jesse no I was gonna I was going to say you know I worked uh with Chris and andreon and and um you know the the the the first A6 crypto fund was launched 2018 and you know Chris had at that time this this amazing post why decentralization

matters right and um I think know for anyone who's who's thinking about picking up re wo in his book you know go go read that bom post first it really explains you know why it explains why decentralization vors and and and what he talks about there and in the book is permissionless interoperability permission you know permissionless composability these things that we had on the open Internet that we no longer have today until web 3 um and you know I think the um there's competing like ways to think about crypto one is you know blockchains is a new kind of computer that enabled this like permissionless interop and and the other is ownership the the the you know the synthesis is that they're they're very closely interrelated like you know the owner and and I've obviously always gravitated

towards ownership as the thing that matters for for end users because it creates new user experiences and the permissionless is what matters for developers um and so anyway just you just want to again plug Chris and like it it goes way back to that that old blog post and um would recommend that too nice yeah that book is like if you want to explain to your you know your your dad or your partner or whatever like what is this crypto stuff about and I think that was I've talked to Chris like that was his aim like this is the book you want to BU or your Congressman potentially like what is this crypto thing about it explains Capital Hill with h with a read WR down oh oh I oh I suspect they are yeah yeah I'm sure Andre's well ahead of that so anyways Jesse uh

Antonia thank you guys for coming on if um if folks are raising right now I'd really recommend checking out variant they do a lot of early State precedes seed series a um investing and if they're marketers listening to this uh spindle doxyz would highly recommend getting in touch with Antonio so yeah Jesse Antonio thank you guys for coming on thanks thanks for having us hey everyone Jason here thank you so much for watching today's episode wanted to take a quick second to thank today's title sponsor arbitrum we know you are tired of onchain experiences that have unaffordable fees and frustrating transaction speeds and that's why we partnered with arbitrum you can experience frictionless trades lightning speed and LaGree transactions all for pennies per transaction explore arbitrum

expanding ecosystem at portal. arbitrum doio that's portal. arbitrum doio see you for the next episode hey everyone thank you so much for watching today's episode really hope you enjoyed it we wanted to take a second to just remind you about our upcoming digital assets Summit in London March 18th to 20th Santi and I got your back seats are limited if you heard it earlier in the podcast there's a little competition running at blockworks to see who can drive the most number of tickets so when you register for the digital asset Summit make sure you use our code see you in [Music] London