The Rise of Axie Infinity | Jeff 'Jiho' Zirlin (SotN 7/13)

Transcript

hey guys welcome to another bankless state of the nation this is the episode where we talk about something big that is happening in the crypto community in the bankless nation today that big thing is axi infinity the crypto game you may know something about the growth has been absolutely phenomenal this community is like a small nation at this point we're gonna dive right into it david how are you doing today man absolutely fantastic i've always just and thoroughly enjoyed the intersection of ethereum and gaming as many in the bankless nation are as well i'm sure they're gamers i'm a gamer i like games with scarce assets i like collecting games with scarce assets and so i'm just uh i i want this world to be built out and it really looks like axi

infinity which has been around for a while but has really just absolutely exploded in the last few a few months or so is really working on that intersection of scarce assets and games and people like games and people humans like scarcity so it seems to be a logical intersection david you know what and we've never actually like had games with truly scarce assets they've been centrally controlled centralized controlled scarce assets but they've not been true scarce assets and that is part of the innovation here and you're right that like um axi first came on our radar a few years ago right i mean we've written stories in bangladesh about axi for a while so while this might seem like an overnight success story it's like a three-year overnight

success story these guys have been grinding and when i say grinding they've been building like hell they've been you know creating an impressive very immersive game they've been scaling maybe most importantly they have been crushing it in terms of building out their community and it's an incredible community it's like extremely international so a lot to talk about here and as david was saying this is not just as you were saying david the third person here um this is not what's exciting about this is it's not just axi this is a harbinger of things to come like i think we are going to see um the the gaming industry completely revolutionized over the next 10 to 15 years by games like axi so take axi right and then like extrapolate what it

can do but also extrapolate that to the gaming industry writ large and you have a pretty massive story here that's why it's important that we're covering it on bankless absolutely like i can only imagine how much more addicted to video games i would have been when i was a young if there were if there's financials you would have super rich me and a bunch of other people right but like just imagine when we have economic incentives uh which are already working like world of warcraft is a massive economic platform imagine if we add just real world economics where you can take your real world value or your your now real world value in the game and take it outbound anyways uh we need to get into the conversation

all right guys but before we do uh what's new a few things that are new we just launched the bankless job board david i'm going to show this on my screen really cool because i'm super excited about the bankless jobs board so we've talked about um you know your bankless journey of course you can use d5 you can you can buy crypto assets you can also work in the crypto industry we've got already close to 20 jobs on the job board just launched yesterday i've got seven in review i've got to review these jobs and and approve them but software engineer at arbitrarum senior designer pulled together these are jobs for crypto natives so check that out we'll include a link in the show notes for you there um as far as other announcements david we've got some really exciting podcast content show content coming up

staking panel tomorrow what time are we doing that uh we are doing that a little late it's gonna be a late staking panel because as we all know proof of stake works equally across the globe therefore stakers are spread equally across the globe and so that is happening at 11 pm eastern time 8 p.m ea uh pacific time and we have the teams from a rocket pool from lydo and also from coinbase staking so we have the complete spectrum of centralized to decentralized staking services uh and so we are going to have a staking panel with the three premier staking services out there to help you understand what it means to stake your ether we've got also the arthur zero x podcast that just dropped yesterday that's the story from somebody who got into define 2018 went from six figures to nine

figures and now has a 500 million dollar fund the largest d5 focused fund in asia an absolutely incredible story and the insights from the arthur zero x uh conversation were just jam-packed full of really interesting content during this crab market that's when you can start to absorb content because you're not looking at price the whole time so go check that out also david we are recording a podcast um i think the next couple of days and that is is being published on uh monday what what's that one going to be about i know we're both excited about it yeah that this is going to be with a taron chitra and this is one of the podcasts where the guest uh actually is informing us as to what we need to talk about and so tyrone

he's a he's a gigabrain he's one of the mev uh thinkers and and uh innovators in this space but also just really pays attention to mechanism design he's a frequent uh co-host on the zero knowledge podcast and he is teaching us all about the history and current state of electronic markets uh and so we are going to uh get get schooled on electronic markets with tarun chitra coming on monday my favorite episodes are the episodes where we get school david those are some of the best ones i expect to get schooled during this episode by the way um all right before we begin want to ask the question i ask you every single time to start a state of the nation that is what is the state of the nation today sir the state of the nation

is gaming but gaming is different now gaming interestingly enough gamers uh there's a lot of games out there that have farming mechanics where you go and you play the same parts of the same game over and over and over again to grind and collect stuff in the game to like level up that's the same thing with axe infinity but now it's actually farming tokens and stuff and just experience and leveling up your assets on ethereum so the state of the nation today ryan is gaming we are learning how to game with all of our digital assets this is the play to earn business models super exciting all right we are going to introduce jiho from axi in just a minute but before we do we want to thank the sponsors who made this

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jiho for the rest of this episode that's what he goes by in the axi community he's the co-founder and the growth lead of sky mavis they that is the studio the group that created axi infiniti and jiho and the axi team have really grown this into one of the largest communities into the world in the world i think we're going to start with some growth metrics but like this is rivalrying fortnite inside at least in terms of discord server that's how big this game has gotten in the over the last uh three years it's grown into an internet native economy with an internet native community it also calls itself a nation bankless nation you might be familiar with that lots of cool themes coming up jiho it's great to have you welcome to

bankless thanks for the invite super happy to be here dude we are super excited to have you here um i think uh some people have been sleeping on axi like for a while and some people may have heard of it like a couple of years ago uh and then just haven't paid as much attention to it of course there's tons of users tons of gamers where the opposite is true you guys have brought many into crypto but let's talk with this kind of growth story because your recent explosion has been crazy and i think this is why axi has been on everyone's radar um why has axi infinity exploded in growth over the last few months i want to talk about a few things user growth revenue growth 25 million daily volume 50k nfts

sold per day 250k daily active players 200 000 discord members that's on track to pass fortnite as the largest discord server in the world this is absolutely insane why are you guys growing this fast over the last few months it's a culmination of factors i think the axi community that uh you know sky mavis we built throughout the bear market uh it was a br it was brutal right nobody cared about nfts nobody cared about ethereum nobody cared about blockchain we just kept building and talking to users figuring out issues uh right and it took over it took kind of a while to put all the pieces together right building a blockchain

game is probably 10x harder than building a kind of conventional mainstream game right you need to get the game play right it needs to be fun then you also have to get the game economy right like this whole idea of economic freedom for gamers it only works if right there are true property rights you think very thoughtfully about how to enable these secondary markets for the players right so there's the in-game economy and then there's the scaling there's the infrastructure right uh we you know we love ethereum we used ethereum um and we still use ethereum right so basically we had to scale right so we've built this east side chain it's called ronin um and a migration to ronin um after right like two or three years of building up this really strong base of

the community we migrated to ronin and this just allowed like for transaction therapy to increase and you know all these um unlock the player market the secondary market unlocks so much latent demand for axes a lot of people who've been watching um saying oh like this seems really interesting but the gas fees were a little bit of a turn off when we made that transition to the side chain uh it was like okay now i can finally jump in so i think a lot of people thought that at the same time this is like uh so cool because we did a um we did a series a podcast series uh jiho not too long ago on bear market builders um but it was all focused on like the d5 protocols who didn't give up during the

bear market right so it's like synthetics and ave and like nexus mutual and a few others and um we recorded that did that in 2020 and this was like on the back of defy summer where all of their ideas were basically validated right and it felt really good now i feel like is the time for axi infinity and what you guys are doing with crypto games and the ability to own your own assets on the blockchain on ethereum now all of that work that you guys put in over the last three years during the bear market is being validated i'm showing some numbers here like this is uh this is sales volume guys uh monthly sales volume here um 25 million is that daily

daily um absolutely insane here is the number of axes being bred um an axi by the way for people who aren't familiar maybe maybe we should just mention that what is an axi there's these cute little like kind of how would you describe these like monsters yeah i think of them as fantasy pets that you can battle and collect okay you need to earn some crypto learn learn about ethereum earn some ethereum so 80 80 60 uh wait let's see 50k of these things being bred on a daily basis so this community has absolutely um exploded and i think it's all thanks to the work that you guys were doing during

the bear market because so many uh cryptic game studios and so many others just gave up i want to talk specifically about layer 2 because that seemed to be a catalyst for your growth but before we do why didn't you guys give up like the rest of them during the bear run it was so easy at that time there's there's a lot of factors at first i think we always knew that we were onto something really special the community right even when it was super small they were making musicals they were getting tattoos uh you know they were building tools so we saw all the kind of ingredients it was just about how to amplify this and get to the next level and we saw that okay like if we can

uh you know if we can scale if we can uh you know have some sort of erc20 token um integrated into the game or erc20 tokens integrated into the game um yeah so it was like i think we always saw the next step right and we were talking to the users and they inspired us we our community inspired us every single step of the way and yeah there was always right like there were always little signs that we were on to something and yeah we i think you know the team that we have is super special a lot of us are like are lifelong gamers um so it's like you know we compete and we we like to win and i think that's part of our culture um so yeah it was never giving up was

never it was never an option um i think uh yeah it was also if a lot of us come from like product development backgrounds and understood that it's actually right the way to win is to be early to the right market and just keep building right like the bear market actually we like that because other people aren't trying to catch up to us right there's they're having a lot of issues like fundraising like with morale um so the bear markets that's 100 where uh you know the opportunity is right and you cannot form a community like axes during a bull market right you just you just attract only these mercenaries right it's like all these uh you know people who are more about the hype than the

tech obviously there's a combination of both in every community but it's really important to have as as kind of the pillars as the foundation these people that are really in it because of the right like the economic the economic revolution that's happening um and uh yeah i think like we have we have enough of those types of people in our community um that yeah you know we we thought that it was it was just about building towards product market fit and yeah it's good to me one one thing that i was thinking as uh dave and i were going through the the agenda for this yesterday was was basically like if if you're in this is a message to uh bankless listeners if you

see an amazing community that's somewhat underground it's a dare market but like doesn't have mainstream attention but it's just an amazing incredible community that's somewhat underground that is a signal for you to go get involved like maybe not financial advice go buy the asset right because good things happen out of good communities that is a key insight i think that is repetitive that rule has never been broken in crypto it's really hasn't jeff i got it i i have a question for you and there are so many topics that we want to get into we want to get into the mechanics of digital assets inside of the game we want to get into uh axe's relationship with ethereum versus l2s and and what it means to have revenue but first i want to ask a question why

why now why is axi blowing up now because defy summer was a year ago and then the nft mania was like six you know five months ago and and you know there's both nfts and tokens inside of axey infinity but it seems to have claimed its own success under for for its own reasons under its own merits without some sort of just like fundamental catalyst behind the ecosystem or whatever is going on in the rest of crypto so why is axe infinity blowing up right now yeah it's it's it's it's a good question and i i think it's it's not it's not simple um there are a variety of kind of intertwined uh catalysts right uh you know we've deployed to ronin in late

april and since then we've been growing around 30 a week and it has spiked in right so all metrics basically at least 30 discord users volume dau uh traffic to the site all going up around 30 to 35 percent per week right it's within the last week that things went 50 to 70 and it's like everyone in crypto kind of started taking a look at us uh also right it's kind of like we're in this as you mentioned we're in a crab market right so it's like we were doing really well for most of the year but everyone in crypto is doing really well uh but i think like this fact that we've kind of in some ways decoupled from um a lot a lot of the rest of the market like our economy is doing quite well um

even though we're in this kind of flat to down market right now i think it's really uh people are bored right and they're looking for something interesting happening in crypto and right now right like we happen to be where the growth is where the excitement is um so yeah i think i think that's a lot of it as well uh so jeff i want to we we want to go into all those questions that i was talking about but i want to just illustrate what the game play of axiom infinity actually is so maybe maybe can you describe what it's like to play axe infinity what's the goals like what's the game mechanics what do you do what's the what what's the uh what's the what's the end goal of axe infinity uh yeah so right now the the so we don't look at actually as just one game we've

seen as an entire universe of games the product that's on the market right now that's gotten us to its current current level of traction is this kind of uh pretty basic uh card battler so uh basically they're you fight two teams of three axes against each other there's both pvp and so you can fight against other players it was pve you can fight against monsters called chimera and yeah the goal is to basically use your energy um so you start each round with free energy um or a certain amount of energy and the goal is to basically use those energy to play cards that are going to give you the best chance of winning right so it's kind of like you have to know what your opponent's axes are capable of playing you need to know like your team really

well uh and kind of think of counters and yeah it can get quite complex especially with the mind games and you can even skip turns and basically like save your energy for a larger uh kind of more devastating combo later so it's quite basic but i think it is uh it's you know pretty proven uh it's like a very interesting i think uh kind of card battler mechanics and some some people might think that it's similar to games like slave aspire uh you know hearthstone it's kind of like a combination of a lot of the card uh games we grew up um playing um you know over the last ten or so years and so what's the uh progression like as you get better and better at the game do you like level up

do you find more scarce items tell us about the progression yeah definitely so when you uh so when you win a battle you actually earn these tokens called smooth love potions those are actually what's what are required to breed or create more axes right so we don't sell axes um right so all acts like almost all the axes that exist out there except for very few that were created during special kind of primary cell events all those axes are created by players uh so and in order to actually create an axi right you need to use those those two those tokens so the creation of an axi is kind of like a proof of work system where each axi is the result of real time uh

spent in game and i think that's one of the key mechanics um and yeah i think like for example the smooth love potion this is i think like the first time that human effort has ever been kind of like tokenized um into an asset that's really really cool and that's definitely a topic that we want to dive into more when we get to the assets section of this conversation but first you said something um that the the axity infinity or the gameplay that ryan is showing right now on screen that's just one possible game of future axi infinity game so these characters these little cute little axe infinity monsters can go and in the future play be a part of other games that that is built out of your guys's studio

definitely i mean first of all we are also deploying a huge upgrade to this uh current battle system it's called you know kind of like crippling crypto we call everything b2 right so uh yeah we have a battles v2 uh coming out hopefully later this year or early next year um but then yeah we're also working on land right so land might be something similar to clash of clans rising kingdoms where you're actually you own a land plot you can build it build it up build structures on it harvest resources right imagine if you're playing clash of clans or farm bill right and those resources are actual tokens i think that's a dream that a lot of people have actually had since like d5 summer uh i tried to kind of you know sound the alarm saying this is

actually what we've been building it just takes three years like none of you guys from the d5 community are actually gonna build it like we're gonna build it like it's just give us you know give us some more time uh so yeah like the the the land system i think is going to really resonate with a lot of people um that's also on the way and then long term right sky mavis we know you might might think of us as the axi core developers right now uh we're never going to be able to build enough content i think to satisfy uh the number of players that we hope to have within the ecosystem that's a good problem to have yeah hundreds of great hundreds of millions of players i don't know you know the sky's the limit uh you know uh we we believe that in order for

us to be able to scale and uh scale the content within the ecosystem we really need to allow right community members other game developers to come into zaxa universe use the ip and uh yeah so you have one way to think of it one way to think of axi is you know kind of a protocol for internet monster games um using this awesome art there's so many game developers out there who are really smart they know how to make games really well what do they lack they lack understand they lack uh art they lack a passionate community and they lack an ability to get funded or unders or basically how to put together kind of like the in-game economy so there's a lot of things that

that come kind of inherent with the axi model you just need to come in right like with with the urge to build um and make something awesome so long term we're going to have an sdk and i think that's going to really uh unlock so much latent talent this is so cool so if you're like like back in the day like a mod developer right you could just like plug right into not only this sdk from a technical perspective but you're really plugging into this economy this whole economic incentive mechanism that axi has really built up let's talk about this uh for for a minute jihyo because i want to get to kind of the assets and an interesting way to maybe frame this is for some of the the the items that we were talking

about like the smooth love potions and the axes themselves like what are these things exactly are some of them nfts are some of them erc20s could you just suss out in like um like bankless bankless native lingo defy native uh lingo what these things are and what what are the scarce elements of the game what are the tokenized elements of the game yeah definitely so the actual nfts within the game these are axes as well as the land plots the land items right so these are the unique tokens the resources within the game um are the erc20s and we also so we have we

have two tokens right now uh within our game uh there's the smooth love potion and then there's the axis governance token these are both erc20 tokens uh fun fact we actually also back in the day uh as kind of a fun experiment we dropped die we dropped uh ave token this is like you know way before like i kind of remember this yeah this is way before maker protocol blew up way before ave really i think we had the old ave tokens so it's like super super long time ago um yeah the lend um so yeah we you know we we did some cool experiments where yeah these d5 protocols this is also like the key to sustaining this economy long term is right like

exogenous actors right like they're like saying okay this is an interesting distribution channel for my token to get it into the hands of people who are a strong community um that's that's that's a crucial point i think maybe we can talk more about it later um but yeah so that's just what's when what do you think of it is like the game characters right um as well as the the homes for the pets they're they're non-fungible tokens and then the kind of the in-game resources um are your c20 and they're all connected to you the the defy um the like to ethereum and sort of the the composability of d5 so if you have a smooth love potion right there's like a uniswap market for that is there a uniswap v3 market for specialty there's actually i i've heard really good things

about the v3 pool uh everyone's like you need to join this pool like it's super it's there's a lot of volume they're trying they're trying to school me on you know v3 is it's a tough piece to tackle even for like a d5 right um i've been so busy so they're i have like people messaging me each week like yeah like like even people are getting on board into axi because they just find out that the slp v3 pool is like awesome so yeah that's that's the amazing thing right is like in the future not in the future gamers an increasingly large number of gamers will start to demand that your in-game resources have liquidity on unison or a similar amm right that's the

big i think that's the that's the one of the core uh discoveries that we made in 2020 that has gotten us to this point where we realized that in the future right like gamer games or like the the growth and marketing people and their team on teams they're not going to be like looking at like oh like what's our facebook ad spend looking like what's our instagram ad spend looking like this month right that's like that's really uh i think that that era is over for at least like uh yeah a lot of indie game dubs right they're gonna be looking at like okay like you know how can we incentivize more liquidity for our in-game resources how can we build up more liquidity um right assessing that rather than these like you know marketing budgets and

things like that yeah it's it's somewhat like i think in the future it'll be like if your token's not listed on uniswap does it even exist you know i mean like if your assets not there where is it i i do believe that a unit swap or the successor to unit swap will become the biggest marketplace for human exchange the world has ever seen and like digital digital items are gonna really really push the envelope there so okay so we've got the composability of d5 and that includes obviously all the erc20 tokens like axs or love potions then also axes could be sold in kind of the composability of the nft market so you could sell your axi on open c or something like that can we talk a little

bit about the the token economics i know you mentioned token economics for love potions uh maybe a quick refresher on the on on that it sounds like you actually have to play the game in order to earn it so it's like time spent in the game or the love potions it's like a proof of work yeah farming love potions and then also the token economics of axs so does someone earn that or how does how does that work in general could you talk about those too sure so slp smooth love potions right this is kind of it's uncapped it has kind of like a reflexive supply all right so uh you can earn it by playing the game uh you know doing pvp battles or fighting monsters and then you burn

it by breeding um so we look at the the basically look at the minting rate from playing and we look at the burn rate and we can make economic adjustments we can sometimes increase the amount slp needed to breed if we see that not enough is being burned and too much is great um so in some ways right like there's some uh there's a lot of math that goes involved into that and hopefully over time that can be done by like an algorithm or done by governance just like the maker stability fee um and then yeah so that's kind of basically how that works uh and it's it's crazy it's a phenomenon in the philippines there are it's like a trend where businesses are now starting to be like hey like we're cool we we accept slp you can come uh buy i think like cakes uh there are apartments

where you can pay your rent this is like a kind of a you know this is this is a trend and it's something to watch um in the philippines it's super interesting axis on the other end this is the governance token it has a cap supply uh right like we emit it through playing the game but in more kind of very specific ways right so you can earn it by getting at the top of the leaderboard uh you can earn it by uh kind of contributing to the community right so like you know we're increasingly starting to rely on more like you know decentralized doubt uh kind of contributors right people who are helping out on the community side of things over i mean we do contests and as well right like we pay it we pay we just had an amazing uh

video short video contest and that came out and you know we paid out the rewards and access for that right so we have different distribution mechanisms to get it into the hands of the community members what's actually being governed over with the axs tokens what what does that token what's the power behind that token yeah sure so so right now under you know governance has not been implemented yet um but what is happening is that so 4.25 of all the nft volume within our ecosystem right it's like 300 million dollars this month 4.25 of that is going into a community treasury uh we also have uh breeding fees um so part of the breeding fee is paid in slp the

other part is paving and access uh so yeah basically these fees right it's like it would be very it would be so centralized right too centralized for us to you know as the game developers to take you know uh the entire marketplace be these breeding fees right in the end it's like we would be kind of uh this is extracted middlemen um so you know when we worked with delphi uh digital on this actually uh where we basically created its governance tokens where long term we can basically you know put over control of that that treasury uh to be to the doubt to the down members um yeah i think i think there's also a lot of other things that could be decided by governance um for example like

you know maybe like policies and punishments on automation right it's like like a lot of people ask like how can you know all blockchain games should have should allow a bots right like that's like that's like some some people think that is it maybe like i understand why they would think that if they haven't built a blockchain game talk to users right like our users they really hate they really hate bots because they feel like it's like automating them out of a job it's competing with them it's unfair right so you know if we were right like yeah i think like something like that could also be uh decided by governments um as well uh long term um also maybe perhaps right uh you know uh content within the universe

um you know there might need to be like certain like restrictions and you know rules around like you know fair use of content but it shouldn't long term it doesn't make sense for us this guy needs us to do that so those are just some some of the things i think that i think this really fits into the overall theme of crypto and defy of itself where the token allows the users or participants of an ecosystem to become also the owners of the ecosystem right it really changes what it means to be a play to earn game where you know you you play to earn what money or ownership in the actual platform like that's that's the cool new thing and back in defy summer we talked about these governance tokens like oh

yeah if you're a user a compound you get comp token issued to you now you own now you own part of compound that's like if uber was issuing uber equity to every time a driver gave a drive or a rider took a ride like oh same same model now it's about games and so now we have these gaming platforms where the users can grind their way into ownership of around the overall platform and that seems to be the the quote unquote new paradigm that actually infinity is really tapping into we know that gaming communities are some of the most passionate in the world right so imagine when you actually give them ownership of the game right how how much more they're gonna do uh to help it so i think i think that's really what we've seen i also write like we

talk we think a lot about decentralization and there are different layers at which you decentralize things and and timing right for our users the things that they want control of are the peer-to-peer exchange of game assets and eventually ownership of the entire game those are the things that they care about the most right now um in terms of right the date the data storage they're okay with a side chain for now and then being with the ability to uh settle back to ethereum geo i i feel like you guys have played this really well right there there's some uncertainty there's always market narratives in crypto right so like all of these uh ethereum killers popping up and does a game like axi deploy on those

does it stick with ethereum all of these layer twos promised in the future right at one time it was plasma do you remember those days and then uh you know it turned into kind of roll-ups and we're on the cusp of seeing some roll-ups in production but they're not there yet and you needed something sooner i just feel like axi has played the um platform betting game in a very good way because you've benefited from all of the defy composability of ethereum right and like the the um settlement guarantees of ethereum where necessary but you've also deployed your own layer two where those settlement guarantees are not necessary so it's like a really smart way um to play the game because you haven't lost that composability um

i'm curious to learn a bit more about um i think you call it ronin which is your sidechain solution how should we think of this right so we we generally on bankless we uh divide it into kind of two things we've got side chains that aren't economically secured and don't have the security guarantees of the ethereum net and then we have rollups that provide most of the security guarantees of the ethereum mainnet and the economic guarantees so polygon is probably more of a side chain where something like arbitrarium or optimism of roll-up is is um more of a layer two so what is what is ronin and is it more like a polygon or is it more like kind of a layer two

yes it's definitely it's definitely a side chain i don't want to like mischaracterize ourselves as a layer two um that is something that you know is hopefully within the long-term roadmap right uh right now right it's like you know we made a very pragmatic and practical choice for our users based on you know we're product people right so we listen to the users we talk to them it's like what do you care about um but yeah i think long term right like you know the security as as more uh funds are also deposited in ronin we just actually hit i think 200 over 200 million dollars right as that number starts to balloon uh there's going to be more questions and um and we'll need to you know

maybe uh upgrade um and look and look at different uh solutions right so does that mean that okay like we have validators who are posting merkel merkel proofs to the mainnet on our merkle trees um of some form uh possibly right i i just need to we need to look at it right as obviously if everyone starts doing that if everyone has a side chain that or everyone has a layer too and everyone starts uh posting it's like you start those that starts to balloon in fees right so it's like then it's like i've heard that okay maybe there's gonna be a uh another roll-up that the roll-ups post the roll-ups to that then posts something that's then rolled up onto ethereum

right so it's still up there you guys are early here though so like what do you think though um the the massive growth that we've seen from axi this year was the side chain run in part of that growth was it required even for that growth do you think yeah i think ronin was was super important um in that growth um but yeah i think like the evm compatibility just made things so much easier for our community right it's like you know our marketplace is all uh in eth right like we're doing [Music] we're doing like insane amounts of uh youth volume each day on a marketplace um and yeah like you know i think i just saw today that

the ronin bridge the kind of like the running deposit contract is was the number one gas burner on ethereum today more than uh uni v2 um right so and i think like on a normal day we're like up you know and consistently in the top three with with with uniswap and tether for the last month right so yeah i'm super excited about eip1559 too because then we're people are going to be like yeah like they're going to be rooting for us right even more because they're like yeah like our axie is burning east today right i think i think that's like something i'm so excited for oh that is absolutely what my reaction would be

even the persons the people that aren't involved with axi will be rooting for its growth along with every other game on ethereum just to burn more and more ether uh jiho there are so many more things in this conversation that i want to get to but but i want to kind of recap the summary of this section real quick when we view the relationship between ethereum and axi more from a satellite's view how would you say uh why is ethereum so important to axey it's got these defy apps that provides you know uh financial services to these assets it provides onboarding for users holistically how would you say it is ethereum's role uh in axis success and development yeah we wouldn't be where we are with that without a theory right like we

uh it was our it was like our main home now it's kind of like our summer home it was our main home for two years now it's kind of very like uh our home country right uh we would still go back and visit and have really strong like remittance links with right you might think of it like that um there's massive amounts of value transfer um going back and forth so yeah it's it's it wasn't amazing it wasn't it's it's like ethereum allowed this all to happen the ethereum community uh yeah i think like it just also allows really quick innovation right so it's like okay now it's like all this amm stuff happened on ethereum like okay like do we need our own decks for our game um does that make sense right so i think like all these

experiments that happen in evm uh native systems right like they can be transported transferred and transported we might create something on ronin right that can then okay like help out another evm compatible side chain or layer two or even something on maintenance right so all this basically right it's like everyone is speaking the same language um and that's that's that's so key um it's like for the first time right it's like this there's one unified financial system that's all speaking the same language and uh yeah i think like the value that gets unlocked from something like that it's it's unfathomable and i think it's gonna create amazing things in the

future uh so yeah you know i hope that you know axi kind of also inspires right like other other game developers um to build uh these types of games and uh yeah guys i just keep smiling during this episode because everything geo's saying it's just so cool and um it's so exciting and we have so much more to cover with jiho we're going to talk about the internal and external economy of axi a bit more we're going to get into the users really unique global demographic of users we're going to talk high level about where jiho sees the future of gaming and digital assets if you are liking this show so far make sure you subscribe to bankless youtube we uh put these videos out on the

regular so if you are enjoying this conversation uh then make sure to like and subscribe and before we get to the second part of this conversation we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible bankless is proud to be supported by uniswap uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on ethereum which is what ryan and i call a money robot no human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy something brand new in the uni-swap ecosystem is the

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talking about the users of axi who is playing axi infinity we have so many different player archetypes right we have you know the uh collectors who are really into the scarcity and the aesthetics right in the art and you know i think they're super important to the ecosystem we also have right like the people who are kind of uh you know really into the competitive scene of axi right there they want to be at the top of the pvp leaderboard they want to win all the tournaments right they're also able to you know get some nice axis winnings um from doing this uh then you have the kind of play to earn grinders right they

might be playing four to six hours a day farming uh love potions they might have you know they might not have been able to even afford an axi they might have borrowed them from a friend a family member or one of these other uh public programs uh you know we have the liquidity providers right they're you know they're interested in like uh you know trading vaccine market uh doing these kind of short-term strategies uh yeah and wait wait wait a second geo you said somebody can actually like borrow an axi and play with it so they don't actually have to buy you can like borrow exactly so as the expected earnings of a right the theoretical future earnings of a team of axi rises so too does the

price of a team vaccines on the marketplace uh so you know this this is obviously it causes a dilemma where uh right like over time and historically the price of axes has gone up and it's like okay like you know how do you make the game accessible how do you get people into the ecosystem um so this so this system has developed it's called the scholarship system where people who have you know a lot of axes but not enough time to use them um are able to lend their axes out to these scholars who are people who right they have a lot

of time they want to play axi but they don't have uh you know the hundreds of dollars um that it that it takes to get started with the game right and then so oftentimes right these scholars will apply to a program with a resume or cv or even like a video they're getting really creative some programs are only taking streamers uh it's like a amazing growth hack so they're applying then they're in many cases even signing like you know contracts to basically say okay i'm the scholar i'll get this percentage of the tokens earned on this account while i play the rest will be uh taken by the uh original right the the owner of the account so it sounds like uh it sounds like a jiho

a built-in franchise type system exactly i think that's been one of the keys to the growth is axi is a system where anyone who right there they're interested in blockchain they're a bit entrepreneurial they're great at community building they can come in a lot of them have come in and right they've kind of built these guilds right around themselves and uh but yeah there's you know kind of a real earning ability uh with these guilds so yeah there's something there's there's also even uh there's like there's a there's one of these scholarship organizations called yield guild ygg and then they're even like i think they raise the series a um right so they're

like going out there and raising capital and you know there's there's so much interest on this uh idea of the metaverse uh the metaverse immigrant worker right who right because you're able to earn you know 50 60 maybe 70 dollars in these played and these play to earn economies at least in axio infinity uh yeah people are kind of migrating uh into these in in taxi right now and yeah yield guild is is helping um jeff this whole scholarship phenomenon and lending out your axes was that infrastructure that the axi team built out or was that community driven community derived i like to joke that the community got

the idea when they were playing animal crossing during the pandemic because right here you had uh tom nook who is you know getting people getting people to do all this work for him and they're like yeah like me i need to become tom nook with my ex usually get someone to to work for me um but yeah it's it's it's primarily from within the community we made it we we made our account system architecture uh flexible enough to enable this um and we're both sure whether people would start doing uh so yeah it's kind of like a little bit of both uh we're also potentially this might be a leak we're looking at you know if we can make an official uh version of it um what that would look like um but it comes with a variety of

huge that is insanely cool two things come to mind the the protocol sync thesis comes to mind which is the concept that like you you could have built axi infinity infinity the game and used ethereum as you've described it and just built the game but instead you built something deeper you built something that people could build on top of which allows the community it gives agency to the community say hey you have permission to start tinkering with this game that you play and no it's not just the game the game is one feature of a more vibrant ecosystem much more fitting to call this thing a nation uh and and so i love that i'm also reminded of our conversation with josh rosenthal who talks about how there is going to be an absolute new paradigm of what it

means to be a laborer a worker a part a part of a digital organization part of a digital community digital nation and it's just completely changing the game with what it means to almost do anything really be a gamer on the internet to be an entrepreneur on the internet be be just an economic actor on the internet and so this is definitely one of those examples of there's this community out there that is really taking on taking this opportunity by the horns rather than doing whatever they were doing by playing like team fortress 2 or overwatch or whatever i've been in the web 2 world so i i think that's that's really really cool um i want to go into the uh demographics of of the community a little bit more it's

largely um it's largely asian-based asia-based is that is that correct and then what what parts of asia does axe infinity particularly find resonance with yeah so our game is or axi is huge in the philippines right now i think around 60 percent of our users are from the philippines we have i think some of the largest streamers uh in the philippines if not the largest are also starting to stream actually infinity uh there it's kind of like a really special thing has happened there in the philippines um due to a variety of factors um but yeah so that's where in 60 it's we're also starting to gain traction in places like indonesia vietnam uh yeah but also south america right so like brazil is huge venezuela

argentina is growing um so it's really it's like it's almost like covered it's something that's like it started it started in one place and and it was super small but then right now it's just it's right i saw photos of people and i it looked like a school in africa learning how to play acting together uh that was like mind-blowing like i needed i need to hunt down like and see what's going on there like i bet in three months we're gonna see like so many people in ghana nigeria because they can speak english quite well because they kind of can interface with the rest of the community um that's one thing that we've seen is like you know being able to speak english i think that that if a country can speak english and has like low minimum wage that's like a perfect storm for axi

you know obviously localization will help um in the future uh but yeah we also have like lots of ethereans right in the community who are you know a lot of them are from you know the us canada north america um and in europe right north i mean northern europe so uh we have we have we have a decent mix so one of the most impressive things to me about axi is that it's got almost a quarter million daily active players which really indicates to me that axi has succeeded in getting a significant amount of people over the crypto hump as in like axi requires some sort of ethereum native infrastructure in order to play it and people seem to be figuring that out uh how have you guys uh give us your secrets how have you guys

guys gotten so many people using ethereum infrastructure how have you like eased that onboarding process yeah so the we actually just hit 500 000 daily active users today the the data is out that i that we put out there gets outdated you know every week right um so yeah we just we just hit half a mil a huge milestone and yeah i think it's you know it hasn't been it's been actually leaning in to what makes a crypto game and nft game special right like uh focusing on the economy um in many ways and giving economic freedom to our players i

think like the more we focus on that um and making this a game that would never be possible on on on traditional rails uh you know i think really doubling down on that and making sure that people understand the benefits right making sure that they understand the benefits of peer-to-peer uh in-game markets for both the game assets as well as the in-game resources um right there has been amazing work done by our community right uh to like one of the things that we build towards is for our crypto native users to start onboarding their friends and family right so a lot of our users who are right like they might be grandmas aunts uncles they were actually onboarded by hand

by one of our community members right who was like this product is so life-changing and amazing this community is so much fun to be part of i want to do this i want to share this experience with someone that i love if you have your users thinking like that it can actually be a quite difficult uh product to get onboarded on um you know like in korea because i'm actually currently in korea i'm half korean like all old people all grandparents they know how to use kakao talk or they have kakao talk on their phone then none of them like actually set it up for themselves all of their children see it as their like filial duty to set it up for them like in the future that is actually how blockchain adoption is going to happen it's not like this this

this myth of like uh yeah like a lot of everyday people they're never gonna get like no matter how simple we make it and obviously we need to keep making it more beautiful more simple right like i'm not trying to like say that but like there's there's still going to be some level of complexity when it comes to like you know kind of a high-tech you know new new fintech technology um so yeah i i think a lot of it has it is about like you know onboarding personally onboarding your friends and family i'm getting them involved um and then yeah having something that once they do start once they have it on their phone um they're gonna get well i think that's another key with axi is like right it's like the number the amount of

time that people are spending on mobile phones looking at mobile phones is skyrocketing uh and where i think we're especially in emerging markets right where you know these people a lot of people they don't have bank accounts but they have a phone uh so in the future i think and we're i think like we're gonna do some really awesome stuff like with this in the future where people they might not have a bank account they start playing axe infinity they get some access there's some slp some eth and then they get issued right they might get issued a card uh that they can then uh spend so that's like kind of like really being onboarded into the kind of kind of a legacy system but through this back door of uh yeah of the evm so

[Music] this is so cool right so like i this is why bankless nation if you're listening to this um this is why we've been so excited about games for so long is because it offers this unique backdoor that like like uh regular defy and regular crypto doesn't offer right and here's the secret when i'm like distilling from what you just said geo is it's fun people just want to have fun and you know like god bless bitcoin it takes itself way too seriously right [Laughter] fixed cap supply uh ethereum at some level too i mean these are like financial assets and we use like

financial terms and is it a capital asset or what like the thing with axi is it's just so damn fun right like you just like you want to have the important people in your life your friends and family partake in this cultural game with you and so you you onboard it the only time in recent experience i i remember something like this is when uh um pokemon go hit the us right it was big for a while like kind of this like location based game and like everybody was on boarding everyone else um the same thing is happening with axi specifically in places like like the philippines but it's also spreading to other countries and what's so cool about this is this is going to be the gateway

drug to the rest of crypto and to d5 and it's it's kind of like a a back door as you say jiho like a a secret hack of of getting people to go bankless through gaming and um it hasn't quite been tapped in in in in such a way that i've seen and this is maybe the first time that we've seen it start to hit something that like five half a million daily active users that is absolutely massive for anything in crypto so man i'm just bubbling over with excitement that wasn't even a question that was just a comment that's awesome yeah i think like one of the key things

to wrap around is actually wrap your head around the taxi is that you can come into the ecosystem right with just the desire to learn and and a lot of time on your hands um and right you can make a nice tv get us accepted into a scholarship program you know at this point you've never bought it you know you never bought crypto and then you start you know you get accepted you start earning some some love potions maybe even some axes then boom right you can you can sell them on you can swap be free for some eve and then okay you're onboarded right uh we've always in crypto we've taken for granted oh like of course we should pay these miners you know we should pay them in crypto for solving math problems right like oh of course we should pay

uh yield to people who already own these assets right but that's actually the thing that we lack is adoption right um from everyday people right so and i think that gaming gives some way to right do that you know incentivization um to everyday people right like so far we've incentivized security through mining and proof of work um and now you know proof of stake right and we've incentivized holding and you know just depositing an asset right but like we need to incentivize uh yeah you know using an asset or using a product um in a way that doesn't require uh capital in the beginning um so i think i think that's like one you know

one of the the key breakthroughs that actually has managed and i i think that it's gonna more and more stuff like this is coming it makes me super excited if i have a question about your guys's discord and your guys's community in there uh i think most people in ethereum and d5 will be familiar with what it's like to be in a discord server and partake in the community there but i think the actually infinity discord might be a little bit different because your guys discord is over 200 000 people tell us about how the the story of it getting that large what was it like before it was that big and now that it's this big how has it gotten organized how like what's what's it like to be in a 200 000 person

discord i mean it's been amazing to see it go from the days of you know maybe 10 people 20 people uh you know talking about the future and it actually makes me a little bit emotional to think about okay those things those grand visions that people were talking about right like seems like yeah we might actually make it happen um and i'm sure like everyone there like they're they're ecstatic and things have gone you know so much better than they ever expected so yeah it was you know it was really slow building right like during the bear market people didn't care about nfts uh there were days where i would go to sleep and wake up and nobody had said anything in the discord um that feels bad this feels like nobody's

using your product like you know uh yeah it feels bad right um but yeah i think like you know the community really got stronger um and and bonded during the bear market and you know we thankfully we get giving them you know little small updates and new products to to work with until things kind of hit a tipping point and now yeah it's it's insane right like we have to be so we have to be so thoughtful about the way that we organize all of our channels uh it's it's almost like yeah managing the discord server channels is almost like right like a product design thought process right where you have to be like okay they're joining and they're touching this okay like this needs to be

at eye level um it's really it's it's really uh it's really intense and it's gotten to the point where right like certain channels are just overrun um with with uh with with people coming in but yeah it's a really special feeling um and yeah it's it's on track to become the largest discord uh on earth uh we actually i gained i believe 130 000 people this week in the discord so we went from 240 to 370. uh for reference the fortnite discord is the largest discord in the world right now it only has 750 000 people in it so we're actually on track to become

the largest discord in the world if we maintain that growth rate of the last week in three or four weeks um so yeah i hope it happens we each we actually if anyone from discord is watching is watching too like we always i always have to d a dm all this uh discord support stuff on linkedin to get our server uh there's a max server size um that you can have you can only have like 100k and then like 250k i always and every time we hit that cap i have to dm their entire support stuff on linkedin um so yeah if anyone from this port is there when we hit the next server limit just just bump it already like it's going to happen just like let's listen i think actually discord might be might face uh scaling issues um due to the axi

uh actually channel one day well so that brings me to my next question how 200 000 people that's too many that's too many people for any one person to be able to keep track of or even a group of people so how has the axi community kind of like self-organized into more bite-sized managers manageable sizes yeah i mean so i think so there's part of it there's part of it is like moderation in the core discord all right so we have like community members that step up right almost you know kind of very downlike fashion where they're self-managing they're helping the new players they're doing support um and sometimes oftentimes we'll even hire from within the community like people doing that kind of stuff or look to hire uh but then yeah also we have right like

other kind of sub satellite discord so some of these discords are related to the different scholarship programs so they'll have like you know all their scholars um their guild mates scholars in one channel and they're able to communicate quite well with them uh and then yeah they're also like kind of more private exclusive uh clubs right i think like part of nft is part of the part of the whole game that we play with nfts about status and power who has the rarest stuff so a lot of the people who own the rare stuff or they like to hang out together and talk about other community um even work together you know development they might even start projects become business partners um so yeah i think like that's there's a whole another aspect of axi that i think is super

important right is the social aspect right uh some people right they just see it as a way to you know they're not like necessarily looking to earn a return um they might just you know want some other rare stuff uh meet some of the other people who have that rare stuff and uh and hang out with kind of like-minded individuals i think like one of the amazing things is that like for so long we were as a species like uh basically confined to hang out with the people who were near us physically right but now it's like we can self subdivide based on like our uh ideals right it happens to be that you know a lot of the people who own mystic axes or you know something like that something something

super rare nft um that they have a lot of like the same interest right so it's kind of a cool way to filter uh for people that you might want to be friends with in real life jiho are the uh the crypto punks people different from the uh the axi owning people culturally yeah i mean i i don't want to start anything [Laughter] or anything like that crypto puns community is really awesome and i think they're they're amazing um there is definitely some overlap um there are also some differences um as i think we're a little bit right like you know we're trying to experiment um and and doing new things whereas right like crypto puns is kind of race like we

know the rules it's like okay there's ten thousand right like you can use them as your profile picture like you know so so yeah i think um there's a little bit of a cultural divide but there's also a fair amount of overlap right it's like i think like in crypto we're always like yeah like oh it's fun to like you know uh make you know it's kind of fun to like start these little tribal wars i i think i i'm also like you know i kind of like have a thing against like you know bitcoin holders sometimes but yeah it's it's like i think like out sometimes also like you know we should try and focus on our similarities right it's like we're all much more similar to each other than we are to our everyday people or muggles like as i like to call them yeah

absolutely yeah it's it's a little bit like you know when it when it's good it's a little bit like sports rivalries but when it's bad it gets tribal and weird and uh not awesome but we've seen this play out in other places in crypto it's funny that it's also playing out in in the kind of the digital asset gaming realm so let's uh let's maybe talk about this as we as we come to close geo is um axi has learned some key lessons i think through going through kind of the bear run and then building up to this point right lessons about you know community and how digital assets can be so transformative and digital scarcity and the economics and even this emergent behavior that you hadn't anticipated

project forward for us because this is like actually in the scheme of the gaming industry is one experiment here but how is this crypto technology going to change the gaming industry and what things do you think we'll start to see coming out of the gaming industry because they got to be taking notice if you guys flipping fortnite as the biggest discord server in the world every game studio has got to be taking notice of what made you so successful so what are the lessons that can be applied here and what are we going to see in the gaming industry yeah i think that axi will be kind of a category defining

nft game player game it's like maybe the angry birds or something like that uh the world of warcraft [Music] so yeah i think we're going like i think whenever you give people a group of users freedom more freedom you start to see a lot of really interesting behaviors start to emerge um right i think this is like one of the fundamental innovations of crypto right but now we're just applying it to gamers we're giving gamers free markets we're giving them true you know true control and ownership of their assets and all as well as the games that they play uh so we're going to see fnatic game communities start to arise uh

with you know backing the developers that really get this model really well uh i think the most fanatic uh communities the world has ever seen are going to be nft gaming communities uh because of the incentive alignment uh and um yeah i think it's just gonna be incredible i think that we're going to see a lot of like amazing experiments but i think that we're also going to see the incumbents be kind of slow to react right there's a lot of open questions they kind of raised your eyebrows obviously they're you know they're watching now um they're still they still don't really know how to pull it off a lot of it has to do with building for three years in a bear market to be honest rick's

like i don't even know how i would right like even if you knew how to build axi and copied it like could you actually reproduce its success right i mean that's it's like the same thing with ethereum right like all the east killers they say that they can make better tech but it's all about the community the developer community uh i think like with axi right like yeah we have uh you know we just we have something special that couldn't just be kind of like copy pasted um so yeah it's gonna be interesting to see if it can't write like how translatable these models are to different communities to different games uh the thesis though is that you know they will be um it just it just it will require a very thoughtful execution and community building and and what are your

thoughts jiho on like emerging markets and kind of like emerging countries because it is the case that um like some people in the philippines are making living wage by playing axes every day do you think this revolution will happen in emerging markets and do you think it will kind of like start there at some level i think i think so so this is what we're seeing uh so here's some numbers there are three billion gamers in the world there are two billion underemployed people in the world there are 2 billion pet owners in the world and so i think like yeah the the best the best uh you know nft games best crypto games are going to be at the intersection of all those markets uh and

yeah so i think like you could theoretically say that you know in maybe 20 years there might be two billion people there might be two billion people uh you know in these metaverse economies in these digital economies and the number of gamers might now be at that time might be 4.5 billion um because there's all these people who are they're not playing games because they're unemployed they're underemployed they don't have time to play games right they need to figure out how to survive right those people are people that should be playing games right so it's like we're actually increasing the pool of potential gamers um by i think by quite a lot so yeah i think i think

like if i had to do a prediction i think like 1 billion by 2032 um you have a billion players in these metaverse game economies and kind of player and metaverse workers and and gee ho this reminds me of a of a section we touched on briefly but didn't really go too much into and i want to make sure that we cover it before we leave this podcast uh the the 25 million dollars in daily volume going on in the axia economy plus the 50 000 nfts that are sold per day i'm guessing those numbers are already stale uh judging by how every other number that we've produced is already like seven days old already um but but you said something earlier that the axi team

isn't capturing these fees these aren't fees captured by the axi team so when we when we look at 25 million dollar in daily volume is that all going to players as in players are earning all of that money or at least the majority of it yeah so those are peer-to-peer rights so it's 33 33 million dollars today and peer-to-peer uh transactions uh and the right the ecosystem fee is four point two five percent of those transactions and it's right sky mavis the inventors i i like to think of us as the inventors of vaccine binding none of my teammates say that yet uh maybe i'll convert them uh sky music the inventors of axi right like we have exposure to that fee uh by holding approximately 18 of the access supply

and so uh that 50 000 probably larger of nfts being sold per day 33 million dollars per day that's the income spread across all of the axi players over the world on a daily basis 33 million dollars per day like no wonder you guys call yourself a nation the gdp of that is absolutely insane do you have any numbers today as to like to like how if you think of axi as like an employer how many employees or late what's the labor force magnitude of accidenfinity yeah so you can think of it as like probably i would say eighty percent maybe seventy eighty percent like let's go with the power pareto power rule let's say eighty percent in classified be classified as metaverse uh workers right so that's like i mean

i mean four hundred twenty four four hundred some odd thousand uh metaverse workers uh and then yeah like kind of a monthly volume of uh it's like 30 times 30 is like like almost a billion dollars right so yeah we start we start we're starting to we're starting to get up there and i think like i think the the nations of the future are going to be opt-in they're going to be people who are united by a by common beliefs and ideals and they're not going to be right like uh based on physical boundaries right i think that's an antiquated concept like

you have to be part of the nation that you were you know like you rolled out on day one and so i think that that of all things that we've talked about on this podcast illustrates the power of the intersection of ethereum and gaming the most if you can build a game that users want to play and you can find a way to leverage digital assets and ethereum's defy then you can start to produce something that produces more value for the world than like the bottom like 50 percent of all nations out there so jiho like congratulations on building one of the most successful and i don't like the word employ employers but like uh revenue generating for its users systems

economies ecosystems of all time that's absolutely crazy i think uh one cool if you go to token terminal right it shows uh kind of like you know the different revenue generating protocols uh axi this week generated 33 million dollars in protocol revenue bitcoin only generated five million dollars in fees um so yeah unfortunately if you switch if you switch like the view to like maybe metrics or something um for some reason i i just wanna i just wanna show the i just want to show the chart with bitcoin on it um yeah you guys can you guys could tick her around at home um

[Music] yeah where's somewhere in here uh no it's not yeah there's there's one view where you can also compare it against bitcoin um and that one is my favorite i think if you press metrics go press try pressing metrics in the top left metrics in the top left there you go wow wow right behind uniswap yeah and go to weekly um that's like i think like the most wow it's almost ethereum that's insane it's been a good week this is incredible uh well jiho this has been an absolute

blast um you know so excited for for what you guys have built what's so cool is this is like a crypto gaming native economy right not a lot of fiat on-ramps here because you don't really need them you guys instead have created um a an economy on the other side so we are super excited to see where this goes we always like to end these jiho with some action items for folks um if people want to get started with axi or learn a bit more about it where should they go yeah i think you can follow axiomfinity on twitter that's just at axiomfinity try joining the discord discord dot gg slash axi uh yeah i think youtube has so much awesome

content too it's like if you type in how to get started with actually your actually infinity starter guide i think that's key for us is that we're able to leverage these channels like twitch right twitch viewership exploding um and uh youtube right like we have all these content creators training out content for onboarding so yeah i think youtube also has a lot of amazing content um out there also if you just say hey axey family i'm looking to get started can someone help me like 30 people are going to show you'll get swarmed all right guys those are some action items for you speaking of great content on youtube bankless channel have you subscribed yet if you are still listening make sure you hit that like and subscribe button so we can get bankless youtube to more people too jiho

it's been an absolute pleasure to have you thank you so much for joining us it's been an honor gentlemen thanks for having me and uh yeah we'll talk again soon all right guys uh let's end it with some risks and disclaimers of course none of this was financial advice eth is risky crypto is risky smooth love potions there's probably some volatility too you could lose what you put in so be careful but we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter

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