Reputation for your projects: disco, otters, oranges, hats, and passports

Transcript

[Music] all right that was the right jingle those other Jingles those were the pre jingle Jingles so oh look at that oh it's a disco honor good so this is I don't know if any of you guys are familiar with some of the reputation tools that we have in the industry but there is one called Otter space and there's one called disco and then there's orange protocol so anyway it's not you know I got them all in there it's orange it's got an otter it's a disco where set so um this is how many

of you have been to my talks before a few of you so you know that um part of the time you're going to talk and uh we've got a runner here I think his name is Orin I'm not sure exactly how to pronounce it and he may have to run a little bit more than usual because um even though I'm the smartest person in the room all of you are also the smartest person in the room so I like to make it a little interactive and more like a workshop because reputation I mean why are we talking about it anyway um I don't know should I go to this event right like it's been being run by one of the bankless guys at the bottom it says I YK YK I'm like I don't know maybe not for

women maybe yes for women there's something he knows that I'm supposed to know that I don't know so reputation in the real world is like a real thing like this could be a good event this could be a sleazy event this could be a mixed event it could be guys's only event I don't know I mean the spa looks really nice so that's why we're talking about reputation and reputation is one of those things is when you bring it up people are like you shouldn't talk about it it's too complex nobody's ever solved it blah blah blah which is all true um but you know nevertheless we're going to talk about why you might want it anyhow we're going to talk about Pro of proof of personhood because a lot of the reputation things

we've got now are just proof that you're a person which is really different from your reputation onchain versus offchain issuance versus interpretation some of the tools that you could actually use and assessing your project needs which I think that last one we're just going to kind of do it throughout um how many people here are actually hacking none of you so oh you're hacking all right cool so you may have specific projects it would be good if as we go through this you actually think of a specific project that either you're working on or you're interested in that needs reputation in some way because it'll be more fun to actually think about the practicalities of it in that context and then when I say stuff or ask

you to say stuff which will happen um you'll have something to say because you'll be thinking of a particular use case it just could be your favorite use case um all right so why do we need reputation and there's a whole bunch of reasons that we might need reputation um and some of them are really only in the digital world like civil attacks are you they're really hard to do in the physical world because it's like oh here I am and you know like I'm here I'm not somewhere else um and I also find it a little weird that we're still doing them in the physical world because Google knows very well exactly where I am right now it also knows what I'm saying I suppose and so but you know

like the there's some weirdness about the fact that we're constantly checking that you are who you are given that your phone knows exactly where you are and what you're doing and how you act and if you've got a limp and like it amazes me that even though we've got so much surveillance we still don't know it's you when you're on the computer it's it's very bizarre to me but anyway um gating is another use which means I might have some privileges that I want to give to people but only the right people um I might want to let you into a certain uh area of my whatever event I've got you know like this is a gating gating mechanism right there's certain places I can go through but if you're also thinking about okay well are you really part of my Dow do I want to allow

you to make proposals in my Dow or not are you actually qualified you deliver on time so allowing people or not allowing to people to perform certain actions uh uniqueness of individuals there's some debate about that I mean in the real world you can kind of fake being somebody but you want to know that somebody's not voting multiple times or pretending to be who they're not or that it's actually a unique individual uh you might want to weigh people's influence so if you're making a decision about um if you're making a decision about uh how to do the messaging or you're making a decision about who should be able to have certain uh equipment for chemicals or whatever or whatever decision you're

making you may have experts and the experts maybe have more influence or uh if you're making a decision about a particular location you would want to know that the people live there maybe they get more weight so waiting of the influence uh compensation is an obvious one and it's also a tricky one if you equate compensation and reputation it's very problematic and probably a lot of us in this in this um industry have been paid in tokens that would also be used to wait our our votes so I recently have been on a supervisory council at the singularity net and every month they pay me in tokens and that's my salary and I use it as my salary so actually I have less

votes than I should have you might say because I'm using them as money and not as voting and it's extremely problematic if you don't have a lot of spare cash to be you know or if all of your salary is coming in in tokens how much weight do you have so when you start to mix reputation and tokens it gets very weird um but somebody's reputation it's like if you knew all of the tokens that I had earned versus all the ones I had bought over time which you could tell on chain you may be like oh this person actually has done more work here so compensation could be part of it uh assessment of Competency so like I was mentioning you might want to know that somebody is really competent at something before you award the money for something you might

want to know that they're competent if they're going to judge other proposals right now we've got a mentoring session over there it's like how did they decide I was competent to be a mentor I I don't know I mean I said can I be a mentor and they said yes so you know but they my reputation apparently precedes me um or not uh content recommendation and assessment we all know problems of fake news and fake information and like who's saying this do they know what they're talking about they sound really smart and so reputation might be important to know who are the experts who should I ask and sometimes quite the opposite like who are the devil's Advocates like if I want somebody to give me a contrary position contrary opinion and Grace

isn't around that day who can I go to so knowing who's an expert in what uh risk assessment and safety so like my first example was was about safety so um I think this is the uh if I push this button yeah so for those who weren't here for the first one this is like my safety example of like should you go to this event um okay so let's talk about why reputation so what are as I said when you came in like maybe people are thinking of a particular project which of these um instances of reputation are you guys

interested in or are relevant to the projects you're thinking about who's got an example yeah wait wait for the runner there's going to be a mic Runner somewhere mic Runner did you yeah and you can pass it to the next person yeah okay it's weird to hear me okay um assessment of Competency so we are building a peer-to-peer mentoring uh platform where ideally everyone can be a mentor uh but how to build the reputation and at the same time um assure quality of mentorship right and so there's there's a lot of aspects of reputation already you can hear we want to make sure

they're going to good be a good Mentor but it's it's competency in a particular field like I I can't help people write smart contracts but I can help them with product Market fit um some people like nice mentors some people like blunt or you know like just tell give it to me straight mentors so there's a whole bunch of you know kinds of mentors and it might go both ways right it's like I don't want to deal with a project with somebody who's whatever you know something like that great what other examples do people have of reputation we got one up here you're allowed to say your name so everybody will know who you are or not because if you want privacy hi this is shandor and uh I work

closely with the decentralized storage we're trying to build uh um you end user applications on top of it and uh if I look at the list here uh gating uniqueness of individuals compensation is relevant to us okay so what do you mean by gating like what are you trying to gate so for example U on if you store content on De centralized storage and you want to make it available to a group of people who is paying a subscription to you okay so that's that's interesting because gaining in that in that case for content if it's just payment that's one thing but it also might be like well if you um volunteered at my organization we

want to make sure that whatever and if you leave a lot of shitty comments maybe we close you off and uh because it's a decentralized um network uh everything is publicly available just like on blockchain so it becomes a challenge to provide this uh but it seems we have a solution for it now yeah I mean some of these are technical like there's I've got to hold a credential right a reputation credential and then you've got to hold a gate in order to gate somebody you you do need a gate it it is true yeah yeah as an example that uh there's a lot of decentralized venture capitals like uh groups that pull money and then invest in uh in new projects and it's

often very hard to know if you can actually trust these people like are they legit are they yeah are they really delivering the tokens or yeah is there scams involves so yeah that's right and there's different legit right like some people are really good at increasing the price of their token but they never deliver a product you might be cool with that as an investor um some people deliver a product but you know they don't know anything about marketing and you can also it's really interesting like some of the matching use cases right what if we had some sort of matching engine it's like you you know I don't I know how to write specifications but I don't know how to code they know how to code but they don't know how to write a specification you could have but the the multiv veilance of that type of

reputation system I mean that's complex and if you just think about this even those of you who've never seen me before if I just pause for a moment and you think of all the opinions you already have about me like how's my English am I smart am I you know like you have a list of opinions about me after what are we at now less than 10 minutes that a multivalent reputation system it's like uh right and then some of the most important ones like the first slide is like are they going to you know like be malicious in some way and this is really the most Salient

thing and one of the things that we're having a lot of trouble with I've been designing some systems and um I had a mentor be honest with me and they said the problem the Fidelity of the problem isn't high enough like if you think about the number of certificates you might have to give out in order to really understand for this use case who you're trusting because there's four guys on the team and each one of them has a history and maybe they and if you've worked in Silicon Valley or silicon WTI like I have you see that like my friend and I we we ran a service business we we would do business plan writing technical writing so we saw everybody come and go our business was in business longer than

any of the startups we served and our business was profitable from day one because it had to be because it was a service business and we used to laugh about like your qualification for raising $5 million is that you burned through a million dollars last year it's like we ran a profitable business nobody would nobody would ever give us any Venture Capital cuz we hadn't proved we could burn through a million dollars we could only prove that we had earned earned a few million dollars every year was really problematic so anyway so but the multivalence is really an issue and if you think about that over time and then also things like you know did they do something wrong in the past and have they made up for it and how far in the

past it was it's very complex these type of matching engines uh other examples of people who are looking at reputation for their projects want to like yeah here we go I'm not hearing you so me something's with the the mic Runner Runner backup Runner Runner backup all right now we got reputation for each of the mic Runners who's it's still not working yeah okay oh that's now's running can you hear me okay awesome all right now we know who the superior mic Runner is we can give him a certificate

so I wanted to ask about compensation as well because uh I run a company we advise a lot of dials and protocols and it gets really tricky with uh with governance and and exactly reputation and one of the instances in which I would be really curious in is uh when you're getting compensated on chain and it's clearly visible how much money you're making it brings a lot of uh security risks as essentially people know how much money you're getting and um they can easily trace it back to you yet you want to be able to come in in and show your track record say your name you know effectively bring your reputation in but then it brings this risk of people knowing how much money you're getting and so that's one of the security vectors so that's one way that

I would like to ask about whether how you see that getting resolved over time maybe ZK uh could be one of the ways in which you somehow prove your reputation track record and previous experience with relevant projects without revealing your actual identity so then you're getting compensated in some meaningful way and another way exactly as you have mentioned uh you're getting paid by many of these projects uh in tokens right because everyone loves it it aligns incentives for them the cost basis is very little uh but then as you're using it to pay your staff to pay your people to pay yourself you're selling it and so you're losing your your voting weight and one of the ways for example which we have advised or somewhat the most feasible way of going forward with um

not just incentivizing people that that that have the capital to effectively buy their influence for voting is to not just do it purely based on the amount of tokens they have but instead of locking it up basically looking at the duration for which they have held the tokens which is one of the ways that I've seen this getting solved but I would be also curious in how uh what you think the ideal solution to this is so um okay so you're talking about transparency wasn't that great an idea was it um and you got people with their like they're showing off their nouns and their board Apes it's like you really don't like and then you know their poops like it's like if you've got a poop that you're here and you've got a board ape your house is

empty right now um anyway so it's a real like transparency isn't as cool as we thought it was um so I'm not going to deal with that because this isn't a ZK discussion or transparency discussion but I will relate to reputation and money and why I'm talking about reputation fundamentally is that money is broken like it's an outdated system of um resource distribution and it's not a bad system out of resource distribution it's just outdated and that's why so much of the allocation of the resources in the world is not done properly anymore because

it's so outdated and you can see that in a project like yours or any of our projects there's people who are quieter and might do more infrastructure work and they're a little bit invisible and they might get paid less than the marketing people or something who are allowed and basically marketing people are paid to create information pollution and so there's a high paid information pollution people or salespeople who are high paid convincing Liars or you know the whole system and then like parents are paid nothing so the monetary system is sort of fundamentally broken which is why started to talk about reputation because we need to start thinking about what is going to replace money

probably not in the next 10 years but we can start and this industry has the ability to start and that's why I talk about reputation is because it's so messed up and reputation fundamentally is composed of I I would guess sort of something like two things you can divide it different ways but there's the fact and then there's how I feel about it so we might have had a monetary exchange where you paid for something and I and and um you got a good deal and we both felt it was fair and we might have the exact same exchange where you paid something and I was just kind of impolite or something and we and you felt it was a crappy deal because I was nasty to you or something and the it has nothing to do with the price like you

can get something that's worth the money and still be like I never go there again so your feeling about reputation is different from the like fairness like I got the thing he gave me the money it was you know that worked out but I didn't feel good so it's kind of two things and then there's also what I think about myself and what you think about me but they're also facts did I show up on time or not and did I give my presentation and did I send them the slides on time those are all factual was it a good lecture you guys get to decide so [Music] um the fact that some like so the amount of money in my in my bank account is really different than the amount of money I made over time so the amount of money I P made over

time might in some way kind of represent the work I did you know like I said my kids didn't pay me for the breastfeeding thing or anything but in some way right in some way the money in my bank account or the money over time could represent something but you don't want to be completely transparent about that um and then it also might represent where I lived because if I lived in a high cuss country or a high salary country versus a low salary country like it it becomes incredibly meaningless incredibly quickly and how much you pay people it's like should we pay people because they're like everybody's had this debate but they're in another country and should I pay them like everybody's had this debate it it becomes very

meaningless very quickly which is why reputation is sort of substituting for it and the case you're talking about one of the things that um it's actually one in my one of my spare slides we already got to my spare slides because that's how these things go um so um is ranks something like 1 to 10 or you know like Judo like has like yellow rank whatever you know expert senior expert something like that so that if if you think about waiting according to expertise that there's just certain level you can get to and that's the Max and that would that would allow you to have weighted voting that makes sense

and that doesn't expose how much people are making or how much they made over time but at least shows their seniority that's a pretty normal way to do it and it can also degrade over time because oh they haven't done anything for two years maybe they forgot how to do it um and um so that kind of like ranking systems make a lot of sense for that and and um yeah so that's how I think about that it's more like weighted ranking system and the other thing you can do with ranking system is you can make decisions about power like how much what is the multiple of power like the lowest guy gets one vote what should the highest guy be get should they get 100 should

they get 20 should they get three and so you can create a a weighted system in which nobody has more than five times more power than anybody else that and ranking gives you that ability that doesn't exactly answer but yeah thank you that's all I wanted to say cool anyone else want to give an ex like we're having a conversation in which I talk more than you Adam uh my youth case is owners of a condominium building and they come together discuss things make suggestions so I'm interested in assessment of Competency there is a in this particular situation some people come in like

trolling and they want they are some some of them are actually mentally ill and they want to destroy the Community with with some stupid comments and it's not possible to ban them because they are owners of this building so they have a right to speak so I need a solution where I cannot ban them but somehow the discussion still goes within a a normal and constructive way yeah so um in so you're talking about a governance system at this point which uh happens to be what I'm good at and what you're talking about is a regulatory system now we've mixed up in our current Modern Life the difference between regulation and uh

enforcement so we're like oh you did torn tornado cash we're going to enforce some law that instead of like b or we're going to arrest you after you did something that's enforcement but regulation is um you know how um doors never used to come off airplanes in midair that that was regulation right it just never happened because it was ulated before the act and in your case you want regulation something like nobody can speak for more than 3 minutes in a row nobody can speak more than five minutes in the conversation something like that something that will just prevent them from going off it's like your three minutes are up and you enforce it on everybody with like some basic rules and then in terms of

reputation for what you're talking about I mean this is really interesting like we have all these Dows we have all these ideas we do something and and then it's like the reputation is one of the things that we forget to do is problem definition or we have a problem whatever it is the Lawn isn't clean or something like that and then we have some ideas and then the question and it might be we hire somebody or it might be everybody takes care of their own lawn or it might be you know we take turns whatever you might have a bunch of different uh solutions for that and they've got to measure for the outcome so we're we're pretty good at coming up with ideas and we're okay at funding the best ones we're okay at delivering what

we said we would deliver and we're really crap at measuring whether it succeeded and our governments are really bad at measuring if it succeeded or not you know it's like we've got anti-money laundering laws how's that going um we're not stopping any of the money laundering right so in this case also you might have a reputation score based on do they give good ideas do they execute on the ideas and do their ideas actually solve the problem that they're supposed to solve and in any Dow you could do that one of the things that is really interesting around credentials is you don't want to force people to show their onchain credentials but if you've received money onchain for from a dow I at least know you received it it's like

I got money the Dow allocated to me and if you said in my Dow at the end we give you a verifiable credential so that it's secret to you that says how you did did you deliver was it on time time was it under budget you did it solve the problem so we give you these these certifications if you received money and you won't show me your verifiable credential it's uncool so you could actually have like keep your information about how you did secret but I know that if you got money you're supposed to at least have this validation certificate at the other end of how you did so there's some way of like knowing the beginning and ending of things and like having one marker on chain but the actual reputation off chain so that

you're not exposing people's personal data but you know you have to think about how that works it's not so easy because as soon as I don't want you to know that I've screwed up it's like you took it off your resume and again you want to think a little bit about um how different do we want these systems to be from reality like people do take things off of their their resumés and they do make mistakes and they do whatever and so like we have this idea like we're going to know the truth it's like like we're all adults right I can tell you that there is no truth you're not going to freak out or anything right so I try to think a little bit about like how not UNG gaming it like we don't want

to prevent collusion I I love collusion I like we call it collaboration if we like it and collusion if we don't like it like I like collusion and conspiracy I again we call it conspiracy when we don't like it and cooperation and you know um so we don't want to prevent all these things that are normal in the normal world like having one identity when I go home to my mom's place and another identity for cosplay like that's cool right so so we want to also a little a lot of the times I think some of the things we're trying to implement in the area of reputation and zero knowledge and identity aren't reflections of our natural way of

thinking of it so we want to get a little closer to like that's pretty normal like okay you've got a college degree you've also got your grades do you always show both well you know maybe for a year or two afterwards you know like something like that any other use cases people have okay so here we go yeah have our dilemma aspect so orange chain reputation what could possibly go wrong um so does anybody here like raise your hand if you have something that you don't want other people to know about you or at least you don't want everybody to know about you right so onchain reputation as we were saying it's like

how much money you made whether you've got a board ape whether you're at home right now because you've got a poop or whatever you know you made like if I bought coffee at the Bitcoin Cafe like we all know where I am so onchain reputation is really problematic even poops and it's like I don't want people to know if I went to the lesbian Republicans convention because there's not one person who won't you like won't be pissed off at me about that I might not know want somebody to know I'm female I might want not want somebody to know I'm I'm I'm not but but if I were gay or like whatever maybe I do want everybody to know I'm gay um anyway so it's really a problem and at some

point it it's almost always a problem and so we have these things that um I call nonr able tokens because I don't think that you can actually bind them to somebody's soul I don't know why I don't think that um so non-transferable tokens and you hear people whenever you hear people talking about how non-transferable tokens are going to work they'll be talking about like and then you use a ZK and then you use a this and it's a layer this and it's anchored to that and then and then you won't know and it's like just use verifiable credentials um like I don't think onchain reputation is particularly great um for most things and you've you've made it really clear like who wants to know what everybody got paid and

like not great and you can't undo it like we can't undo the fact that we have it now um just like I can't ungoogle myself I really would like to um the other thing that I think is really important to talk about is issuance versus interpretation these a lot of times we see these getting mixed up together so but they're almost always separate so there's something like um you get a diploma in this case and then an HR person interprets your diploma the entities who issue your certificates and the entities that interpret your certificates are two different entities and gitcoin is sort of like that so if

you want to have gitcoin passport they give you a score it's a little bit opaque how they calculate it I have a suspicion that if you have more GTC coins get a higher reputation um but most of the information that they take in they didn't generate they take in your like Twitter activity that's issuance they take in your poops that that's issuance they take in all this stuff that happened and again some of it just happened like I had money in my account or whatever I got paid or or whatever happened I gave a getcoin grant last time so it's an action I took not an issuance so it combines all these different things that are connected to issuance I think that that separating those two things is really helpful right

so if you wanted to give ranks to the people um in your in the weighted voting you might take in information from multiple sources to give those ranks um does anybody want to give their example that they were talking about before and talk about how issuance is either the same or different from the interpretation in their use case people gave some cool use cases okay I'm not going to force anybody to speak around here yeah go ahead so in the context of uh mentorship

yeah I saw a few people slipping out if you need to go see vitalic I won't be insulted it's okay yeah yeah so in the context of uh mentoring I think for instance if I attended it Prague or E Berlin this is a way to issue certification in this case but also how uh many mentees I have or for instance if um I actually have a recurrent mentees that shows that yes people are getting back to me afterwards so you have multiple sources from the mentorship experience but also from heatons and spaces that you are creating uh regards to education yep and the and

and the people issuing it is the person who got mentoring you know they could say helpful not helpful whatever yeah so they're the issuers in some way and in the back and then you have privacy issues like what am I going to say about my mentor if he knows he's I'm going to see it like and also this is a real problem with ratings it's like you get you go to in Uber and he has to be really rude for you not to give five stars because you know his living is dependent on it even if he's not your friend and it's the same here like I showed you the spa da at the beginning right it gets run by one of the guys who's an interviewer on the bank list podcast like if I went there and it was uncool it would be a very high cost for

I'm not saying it is I'm sure it's a really cool Spa event just so you know I have know I I really know absolutely nothing about it but it's a good example because if I say anything this is a really prominent person so the anonymity of giving the reviews is and like how do you do that if you had two mentees and you're like they only mentored just me or two other people and it sucked and I want to say it sucked and they're going to see their rating and do you have any thoughts on I mean there's different mechanisms you could do around it like I don't know like I do think that there is when you're talking about patient in that kind of very personal

way cuz I'm much more interested in group issuance right in some ways like does a group issue a certificate or not like Harvard issues you a degree but um on an individual level you need Rehabilitation or you know forgiveness or whatever like that so it might be something like if you get a poor rating we have sit down and have a talk um about what's going on with you and so sort of oston principles and we don't like immediately ban you or immediately get I mean maybe you had a bad day maybe you're you know we've all had that and you try to mediate it so if it's in that kind of case I think this is one of the really important issues because I was

saying about the low Fidelity issue right like issuing some certificates and everybody gets a five you know somewhere between a three and five and only positive certificates you know you issue praise or you issue a nft it's all positive but that's not what we're worried about we're worried about the incidents of like the bad incidents and I think right now we're a little bit far away from that although because of the the criticalness of the problem it's probably one of the next things we're going to be working on but I think we have to start with the negative issuance in a a very gentle way like in a manual I'm thinking about creating some sort of authority that you opt into like crypto projects can opt into and then if somebody has a complaint they go there

and the same thing with the mentors like if they have a complaint they go to I went to um I went to the graffiti Workshop that was the other night and um somebody the person who organized it here asked me how it was yesterday and I said it was okay but the woman who was running it was a total control freak and she told us exactly what to paint and exactly what to colors to use and whatever and he said that's funny she said the exact same thing about you like the world is always a mirror right right um so but you know again he's trying to make sure that doesn't happen again right that's not just a gossip thing he's trying to make sure that next time it doesn't happen he's not putting a

sanction against me he's not putting a sanction against her but he checked in how was it with all the participants in order to create a human-based mediation system for next time so you have to think about what needs to be done humanely and how your marks don't St with you I I was think when I was thinking about it I've actually written a if you look at my GitHub I've actually written a whole um certificate issuance architecture and also what I called negs and like how that might work it's kind of a first ideation of how that might work like but and and basically if you issue a negative reputation for somebody you also have to list like what would they have to do to make up for it

because a lot of times if somebody does something bad to you and they say oh I'm sorry right like in my case like I'm not trying to hide the fact that I'm a little bit of a like I could try but it wouldn't work um but you know like if they're willing to say I'm sorry and make up for it sometimes that's where your strongest friendships are it's not the people who never screwed up it's the people who screwed up and fixed it so when you think about negative rating that's one of the and then do we have a mentor training program for that person maybe they need to do Communications Workshop or like I said maybe just something really like they got fired the day before who knows right or rugged so um I do want to get into some of the tools just so and the approaches so that

you can start to look at some of the things that there are right now um we've talked about some of them these are things that do what I call activity analysis so they take either onchain offchain or some combination of your activity and they use that to give you sometime of of of uh interpretation thing now some of the problems with activity is that um like in Orange protocol for example or hypers seert someone an authority is issuing you a certification that you did the activity um I tried to read this ACDC paper like I don't know if you're a real geek go for it um and some of them like collab land is more like token gating they're not issuing it but if you

have the token they'll gate things for you um I can also make these available and I'm also going to be putting out like a little bit of a report I'm trying to work with one of the guys who I saw was was putting out a report and and put something out to the industry um but like for example fot Trek is working with the singularity net I just happen to know about them it's not even something that's out there and basically they're looking at like how much activity did you do in their funding rounds and there's all kinds of activities like you could have voted you could have commented on somebody else's thing you could have whatever it is right and so how much activity you did and then that increases your weighted voting so now what you're doing is you're favoring people with a lot of

time on their hands who maybe aren't as competent and don't like I don't have that much time like how much time do I have to be like I I did review a lot of them and I was on the Review Committee but it's not there there's not a representation of competence with the amount of time you have and it also creates ongoing centralization because as you have more weighted voting because you've spent more time last time you start to get higher and higher reputation and so that's a centralization or aggregation function over time so you have to be careful about like is contribution and appreciation are different like thank you for coming is really different for thank you for changing my life you know I'm so glad your talk was

you know great or thank you for giving a talk those are two so we a lot of times in these systems we're not doing a good job of separating that um just looking at the time does somebody want to say about the activity analysis are they are are you guys thinking about implementing for you it was like okay did you Mentor how much did you Mentor anything like that anyone else thinking about activity analysis for their projects questions answers things to say that are smarter than what I said okay um the next one is work performed these are much more about like the actual delivery of the work so

Source cred I think it's defunct now but it would like look over your GitHub repositories and know what code you had submitted and again that's not necessarily work done in the case of GitHub right it's which of your code got committed so it's a little closer to your code actually works because you could have submitted something that didn't get a commit in GitHub um dwor I've seen people use it for proof of hours worked and they and dwork has some kind of certificates in them I don't know if they're nfts or verifiable credentials but as you work they they can give you a role and then it's like okay you did 10 hours and then we can prove that you did it it's kind of like a task board like wonderverse also like you take tasks it's a little bit more

like a task management these are more like task management tools but they're good at tracking who did the tasks and making sure that we know who did that um in some ways the retroactive funding is like that or you know coordinate is a little bit like that it's like okay I submitted to optimism optimism also uses waiting voting so if you're a delegate you get more um authority to say whether somebody did good work or not and um that's not a bad thing although I think that in our industry we've like we've invented a politician PL class delegates at this point are professional politicians and that's what they do they go around being delegates at all the

different things and it's like do we really want a professional politician class and what is that lead and if you're a really good delegate does that mean you're actually a really good assessor of somebody coding work or somebody's marketing work or somebody's whatever I have some questions about that you might be like in this we talk about how we've aligned our incentives um but I most of us like the highest incentive isn't money it's like who are you cool with like who's going to hire you next time and like some of these very powerful delegates none of us would say anything in public against them cuz like they've got more Twitter followers and they've raised money and

if we ever go on a fundraising round and so we we're a little bit naive about what incentive means and so and and again this is starting to create centralization of power around a political class within web 2 because of the way that we've designed our voting systems and and part of that is just a naive idea about what governance is like governance is voting that's very strange it's not the case but that's why I'm talking about reputation reput is part of it the information ecology is part of it I won't go into governance we could do that for days um and like I said infrastructure work like there's invisible work and then also like the human work like

you'll hear women complain about this a lot like if there's a fight the people who are in HR and have to intervene and get people to work together it's completely invisible and that doesn't get you know that doesn't get validated on chain um certificates which I've alluded to um there's a lot of this right now there's a lot of certificates um and I've talked a little bit about the pluses and minuses but I think that there's there's something there clearly um but I do think there's a problem of like quality versus like what does it actually mean and one of the things I've been thinking about is that if we have a certificates that are being

issued we also need another layer of authorities that say which certificates are valid so just like you have an accredited University's list in a decentralized organization you could have like okay the ethereum foundation puts out a list and the salana foundation puts out a list and I put out a list because I'm arrogant and you know whatever the giveth house puts out a list of these are the credentials that we validated and so you could issue whatever credentials you want but in order to get on one of those four lists you would need to actually have the credential mean something and this would be fully decentralized because anybody could choose which list they believe it's like no I'm going to go with the giveth house list those guys are good

guys I'm blockchain for good I'm going to choose the blockchain for good list and not the ethereum foundation list so it gives you the flexibility or you could say it's if you're not on all four four of the list like you're not good enough for me so it gives that like extra layer of decentralization of having some authorities around these credentials which is really missing right now like who issued like we all have to do our investigation of who issued the credential and whether we believe it some of them are um transferable some of them aren't nfts have the advantage of being transferable like you can see them everywhere like you can show them on chain verifiable credentials not everybody has a wallet that supports that and they have multiple standards and it's a little bit

more hard difficult there but um yeah those are technical issues anyone issuing certificates or thinking about certificates as part of their want to talk about certificates cert people love poops somebody said that to me at the beginning of the poop thing it took me a year to be like all right now I love poops I have so many poops missing in my wallet because I didn't love them soon enough but yeah um the ones that are both polygon ID and disco XYZ and to some degree also I think orange protocol are using verifiable credentials do people know the difference the like have people heard of verifiable credentials do people know

what that is no okay so we know what an nft is we know what a non-transferable nft is yes so far okay um before before there was a blockchain there was something called self- Sovereign identity which is a group of Geeks Who would meet twice a year in California um the famous one is Doc surl identity woman is a lot more um active now she's one of the top people in that area and so doc Sor an identity women woman a few other people established this thing called The self- Sovereign identity thing and open ID is one of the results of that but that got completely co-opted into Google because they could

see 20 years ago Harry Halpin who works who's the founder of nim is also one of those people they could see 20 years ago that if you don't have control of your identity card I'm going to call it like your passport you like some else is going to capture all your data and your identity on the Internet is it's a digital identifier it's a string of numbers that says it's me it's like hi I'm Grace by the way for those of you who know that's not my that's not my legal name that's not my given name it's not my legal name I go by Grace um but if I have to get payment then I need to use my legal name so I can go around saying I'm Grace but that's you know like my kids call me Mom so that's like my digital

identifier could be different for different context some people call me mom my mom calls me by my given name and you guys call me Grace and so I get to issue if I can issue this name and tell you what to call me that would be my ability to hold my own digital identifiers and then when I do a handshake with you I tell you the name I want to tell you so that's what a digital identifier so that's one aspect of self- sovereign identity and the other aspect is what's called VCS or verifiable credentials which is a BAS basically it's a Jason file that says this credential was issued at this time by this entity and it's verifiable that it was issued by that entity they had

been talking about this stuff for 20 years but they didn't have an anchor because you would always need a centralized Authority for your verifiable credentials and your digital identities but when blockchain came around they're like now we've got an anchor and so all of these things around self- Sovereign identity only became functional when blockchains gave them a decentralized anchor rather than a centralized anchor so now all of the technology around verifiable credentials these are offchain credentials and you can decide how to hold them so in the same way that when your um university gives you a degree you're holding a piece of paper and um the university may or may not have a database usually they do have a database but nobody else has

access to that but you can show your degree anytime you want that's how verifiable credentials should be functioning so I've got my verifiable credential in my wallet maybe I back it up on ipfs or some other decentralized storage so that nobody else can access my credentials and I've got them in my pocket in my wallet in some way and nobody else that database doesn't exist anywhere else like the degree might be with the university and the poops might be over here and whoever the issuer might keep them the issuer might not keep them but nobody can take them away from me and nobody can inspect all of them so that's how verifiable credentials could work and so the ones that are using verifiable credentials

are disco XYZ and orange protocol I said which isn't on this list and um polygon ID those are the ones that I know are using also that standard which is a web 2 standard but actually can't be implemented without web 3 um yeah and the this one the checked IO I looked at it and actually they're trying to do verifiable standards credentials for for data like this data's origin was over here and this data's origin was over there so it's a different kind of credentialing system but it might be relevant for something like what you're doing so knowing the actual origin of the data rather than giving a credential to a person you

could give credential to a data or a DAT um a datum okay and then social graphs is another one that I've seen um who's who's seen social graphs like some of this technology or tried to use it for reputation has anybody tried to use it for reputation it looks cool doesn't it like knowing who people are and whatever um you have to be really specific bright ID was using it for a while for self- Sovereign identity as well because your social gra who you know is very um individual but also you can change it unlike your fingerprint so like if your identity were exposed Bright Idea had

this idea that like okay I could erase my old identity and then another different slightly different group of friends and that social my social graph is like a fingerprint it's very different but I could switch it which I can't do with um fingerprints together crew is the only one that I've seen that's doing social graphs in a way that makes sense um and the way that they're thinking about it is in any like Network or Community there's different roles that need to be played there's like expert roles there's like the networkers who like go around from Network to network there's the like party people who are like hey let's do this let's do that who keep the cohesion together and so they've identified four or five different roles and they can do

an assessment of your Discord or your telegram or whatever you've got that says listen your community is not that healthy because you're missing these roles and that's the only use that I've seen for social graph that I like I really know um this now I asked he was like looking at it was really interesting he was looking at expertise in this way and I saw recently another one I can't remember who was doing it like if we know that these people like if we know that vitalic follows you then maybe you know like something like that if we know that a known expert um is following you or you know recommends or loves your tweets again this tends towards centralization of power like so it's not great your data sources

are really important and the other thing is it's like slightly dystopian like who do you know and who don't you know and like as I was saying before like I have a different personality at home and in my cosplay world or in my ethereum world like I don't know how many of you talk about this stuff at your family gatherings like like so your social graph is like not one thing really it so it has a little bit of a weird feel but I could imagine it as an input thing uh competitions we're having a hackathon if you've won a competition Grace um David was saying a really interesting thing about this like you can use ranked voting as a reputation system so you might not have come in first but if vitalic voted for you

that's an onchain thing vitalic voted for this proposal it might have been the losing proposal or it might be these guys come in second place all the time they never come in first but they always come in second maybe we need to do something there right so you could actually use whether people have voted for your proposal in a DA as part of your reputation so I think it's a really interesting I mean whatever David Phelps a joke race is always saying interesting stuff like that so that actually is an input that we haven't thought about much but you know um and wisdom of the crowd and again these are ones where people after the fact tell you what they think so it's like giveth there's this praise you can buy these Praises a service so if people like oh thank you for you know

tweeting thank you for this and so the people over time are giving you appreciation and then coordinate at coordinate they do this every I think every month right so they have their base pay and then a bonus pay pot and then they they say who they think was the greatest and again these have pluses and minuses and again like I was saying before appreciation versus actual use of a a tool oh that's it I mean I have four more slides but we're at time thanks [Applause] do we have time for one question I mean

we've kind of gone through a lot of stuff in between but all right cool I took all the questions up front that was fun thanks everybody I'll take