Redefining Portfolios in 2025 A Family Office Perspective | EBC11

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So yeah, we lost um couple of our panelists, I think, to uh flight delays or flight cancellations. So um there's going to be more air time for you guys, I guess. [laughter] Um I think originally we wanted to tackle um family offices investment in the space. Um but because the two family offices that were um going to uh pretty much um t tackle the issue obviously have cancellations in their flights. So we can I mean we we can we can broaden the subject really as as we like. So I know you guys I mean you Patrick um you

you you'll introduce yourself but you don't only look at this space from a family office perspective and yourself Bob is um you are sorry a um um kind of a hedge fund specialist right uh so we'll start by doing introductions first um and then um and then uh we'll tackle the subject. Yeah. >> All right. Patrick Martin. Um, I run a family office based in London. By background, I'm a serial entrepreneur. Used to run media entertainment companies. Uh, had a few successful exits, IPOs, and since been investing in tech from a family office since 25 years, crypto since about 10 years, and

um, yeah, it's it's it's it's a wild ride. So from a to quickly answer the question, uh, more crypto in the portfolio is better than less, I think. >> Yeah, obviously that's that's why we're all here, >> Bob. >> Perfect. Thanks everybody for for coming. Um, so I run 319 Capital. We are a fund of hedge funds. So we allocate capital to mostly quan systematic funds in digital assets. So 100% of our portfolio is in digital assets. We cover mostly three key strategies. So the high frequency trading space, the market neutral space and DeFi. And uh I mean I would also say obviously the more the

more crypto the better. But uh um happy to answer sort of or or opine on what do we see from the other side. So when we going through the due diligence what are the quick questions that families ask us what is it that we need to provide to them when it comes to the portfolio uh and uh and similar um on my personal side. So, I've been in digital assets in in crypto since 2017. Uh participated in the the ICO era, so sending money to strangers over the internet. Uh no problem there. And then started to allocate to funds in 2021 and uh now running 319 Capital. Cool. Uh myself, I was a PM for a decade for a company called Alino. I used to try a company that's got a third of its AOM in crypto.

uh I was uh managing a couple of portfolios there at discretionary and uh and also quan strategy and I've left alternative wealth and now I've set up Juno Capital and I'm partnering the big flare in the space uh to uh launch my strategy there. It's a systematic one trend following strategy. So, um I think we were supposed to to to tackle the family office kind of perspective in in in the space and I was I was actually looking at um a Goldman Sachs um recent review of the family office uh investment in in cryptos and apparently the the the the interest or the the the percentage of family office uh family

offices investing h hasn't really changed from 2023. So 2023 uh it was about 26% or a quarter of family offices had some kind of investments in cryptos. In 2025, so this year that that jumped a little bit to uh to 33%. So from 26 to 33%. So a mere um uh like few percentage points rise and and and in the meantime we've obviously seen the the Bitcoin ETFs uh being approved in the US. So all the institutional adoption, we've seen the the massive trillion dollar money managers such as BlackRock and now Vanguard by the way offering offering ETFs to to their to their customers. So

why do we think that um the family office interest h hasn't risen within those two years? Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do we I mean are they more cryptonative like they they they they haven't been involved in in ETFs because they they prefer storing their bitcoins in cold wallets or or or is there still skepticism in this in the space from you know from from from from their perspective? What do you guys think? We'll start with you Patrick. >> Sure. So that's an interesting number. Okay.

So a third of family offices now 33% are have crypto exposure. I think that number is probably under reportported. I would think from my I mean of course I meet people more in the context that are that are already there but I would say I would think it's probably more half but because there's no reporting requirement for a family office. They do what they want and then they they buy bitcoin when they want to. I think in terms of bitcoin it's probably more more towards 50%. And other stuff we don't know. of course allocating to funds and allocating to more uh structured strategies that might be that might be the case but u you know I think the one the the let's say the 50 or 60% that

doesn't have crypto they're missing something because in in a in a classical portfolio uh for a liquid portfolio allocation in crypto or in in Bitcoin especially is now proven to be very beneficial. It lowers the sharp ratio. it increases the u the upside of the portfolio. So it's uh you know if you look at it from that way you should do it. Of course if you're if you're a real estate family and the only thing you do is real estate development then maybe you don't need to have Bitcoin but uh I think it's I mean I'm you know I would think there's I mean there's still work to do.

I mean, if we say family offices have three 33% of family offices, that's that's a lot more than of retail investors, right? Because if you count retail investors in the world, maybe there's 5 billion retail investors and maybe 500 million have wallets. So, it's 10%. So, it's uh it's already outperformance. >> Yeah. Family offices are smarter than retail. >> Um what do you think, Bob? Um do do we do you think like Patrick we have a an under reporting of family offices? um crypto investments. Uh does that sound like a good number to you? 33%.

>> I'm actually surprised it's that high if it's really that high because most of the people that I speak to, they are interested but they have close to zero exposure and maybe I'm spending time on the on the wrong side of the spectrum really kind of evangelizing and and being out there. But uh most of the people that I speak to on the family office side and high net worth individual side, they probably are very allocated to real estate. They are allocated to private equity. They own operating businesses. But very often is the very traditional side of uh of the of the assets. And so I really need to, you know, Bitcoin 101, how does blockchain work, how does Bitcoin work?

And so if it's 33%, that seems quite high. Uh I would say it's definitely lower. I would I think it's lower. And um I think you know the reasons for that is one is um from which pocket will the family office finance that investment uh to digital assets be it bitcoin etc. Um is it from a liquid pocket that already exists? Is it from cash flows from operating cash flows that they will get? They need to basically find a space for it. Find a pocket. And I guess second is um the reason why that number again seems to me quite high inside the family offices. You don't have specialist for digital assets or you don't sometimes have specialist for liquid. You have someone who has basically needs to cover the entire spectrum from liquid to

illquid. And again the education point comes in. they have only so much little time to spend on something that yes it's growing but still it's a it's a small uh piece of the total pie. >> Sure. Yeah. I mean I guess I guess that when they asked these family offices maybe some of them have allocated like 1% and they just open a wallet and just bought a few bitcoins and that's that's that's accounted for an investment basically or uh okay let's move on. Um let's talk about a bit the portfolio construction and how you guys integrate uh digital assets within within your portfolios. Do you do you more do do you um do you have specific strategies that you avoid or you prefer do are you more

into liquid venture? Um how do you diversify or how do you get allocation? Are you more into you know the mining Bitcoin mining space? I mean, I've spoken to Kira. She's not here, but she said from from her family offic's perspective, they're mainly in just Bitcoin longspot Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining. So, it's very much kind of early stage um exposure um from that perspective, how do you guys integrate um your exposure?

>> You want to start from your having more like a traditional perspective? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, so I will take it from the other side meaning the people that I talk to into what pocket we we fit in and and when we have the discussions where where we fit in and what I see. So very often the the family office that I speak to when they have exposure they have it through a venture fund. So basically they have a venture capital allocation and that venture fund be a journalist or a specialist uh has some has done some investments in the space most of the time equity. Some family offices they have allocated to specialist uh digital assets venture venture crypto funds basically I would say is the is the smaller part. Some of them they went sort of one step further

recognized that actually generalist VC firms are not necessarily good VC uh for for crypto for digital assets and so they went to fund of funds. Uh so that's one allocation that I see in place. Second is on the on the liquid side through an ETF. So that's really the history of the last two years where people for family offices is literally as simple as uh uh buying a ticker uh or an iss uh type of product is through an ETF uh or ETP type of uh product both in Europe and and the US. Um those are the two simplest one. Now where we say so we are a liquid fund of funds uh so we offer uh basically two months liquidity.

So we would fit into a liquid pocket that uh that's how they think about it uh where they can potentially call the call the capital back and that sort of situates us somewhere across uh liquid basically equities exposure and uh and credit there's liquid credit. >> Okay. So liquidity is key right? I mean the the panel before us touch touched upon diversification and the need to diversify because when when when uh when problems emerge obviously assets get correlated to one and then obviously everything goes down.

So flight flight flight to safety from that perspective is is important. Um Patrick how how do you get exposure in the space? Well, let me start with saying what I what I hear other people are doing because I'm I'm probably an outlier because my allocation to crypto is about 60%. So, it's it's maybe not uh from a risk adjusted basis is not not the ideal allocation, but I I'm a strong believer. So, I'm trying to to triple my money overall, right? And so, I can't do it with a small exposure. But like most family office I talk to, first they buy Bitcoin. So they usually have some allocation either directly to Bitcoin or to maybe the Bitcoin ETF. Then uh I mean Coinbase is a is an easy one, right?

Because if you buy Coinbase, you're you definitely have exposure to the crypto space and that's a that's a pretty safe one. The one a big family office from Argentina. I just spoke to a multi-billion family office from Latin America. They um so they have some some stock. they have some bitcoin and then they they just bought some kraken pre IPO. So I think the that now that the crypto companies are going public I think it's the exposure will increase very quickly because these are the the the high ball fastmoving assets and then it's becomes very easy to buy just with your normal share portfolio. I think the the reason people don't have exposure more is because it's it's more difficult, right? You can you if you if you're a structured family office, you

need to if you want to have a self- custody, you need the wallet infrastructure that people don't don't have then don't maybe don't want to have. Uh or you need to set up a crypto account with Binance. So, that's a regulatory problem if you're if you're regulated family office. So, um I think it's it's all happening now because now Morgan Stanley just came out last week saying, okay, they recommend for an uh for for sort of like a medium medium portfolio with medium risk 2% crypto and then for a more aggressive portfolio 4%.

And this is for multi-t trillion dollar uh allocation. So if this is a Morgan Stanley recommendation, there's a lot of money coming, right? And this is everybody will eventually have to have it. So the lagards will they will be they will be left behind. But I think uh in terms of a portfolio allocation, you now need to you need to have somewhere between two and 5% uh makes a lot of sense. >> Yeah. Uh I'll probably add that from from from my perspective my my experience at Alterana wealth which was a traditional asset manager. Um so they they they approached the space actually they were quite early. So first of all they they started a Bitcoin investment vehicle back in 2014. Bitcoin was about

$400. The first 6 months the the that small investment vehicle which was a friends and family money. Uh Bitcoin dropped to 260. uh everybody laughed and said, "Haha, we told you it was a scam." Then obviously these early stage investors uh then did 100x uh but within that 100x journey. So you know they've seen they've seen two three bare markets, right? Like they you you quadruple your money and then comes a bare market. You do minus 60% draw downs then again 3x and then minus 80% draw downs. So those early stage investors approached us and they said all right you guys are traditional asset managers. Why don't you profit a little bit from the volatility? It's a very

cyclical asset class. Uh try to capture both uh both both you know large large breakouts on the upside and the and and on the downsides when they're up there market. So that's that's when we introduced long short. Uh so some of these investors uh um allocated to to this to the strategy and also in the meantime we obviously uh did did um market uh did did look into the market neutral uh side of of the trade which uh I presume a lot of asset managers did in 2023 and 2024 as well. Uh the carry trade so you go you go short the futures long the spot and and you um and you pocket pocket the uh the funding rate.

So, so that that that evolution of exposure I think came naturally as as um as I think the the the entire asset class matured. Um now from a family office perspective when I spoke to Kira I remember when we prepped for the call um and Bjine as well uh they didn't seem to have a lot of exposure into these more more more active kind of strategies in the space like like ourselves maybe are more looking into it. So family offices are still kind of more you know earlier and I'd say probably from that perspective they probably did better to to be completely honest. I mean, buy buy and hold strategy in Bitcoin has been

the the best strategy of the last 5 years and uh and and and and family offices were mainly invested in Bitcoin and and probably uh trying to get some yield on top of these bit Bitcoin holdings. Also, some Bitcoin mining was um was also um their uh their their in their portfolio. So, will will will the will it stay the same? Will we obviously see Bitcoin being still the king um in the future? I mean obviously this remains to be seen. Um but I think they the I mean they are still I mean they are now uh cognizant of the fact that I mean things can change and I mean Bitcoin is now king

but potentially other you know you have to look into other strategies at least from a diversification point of view because even Bitcoin can have you know large draw downs right. Um okay uh moving on. I think I think one one uh subject we wanted to talk about um is uh what differentiate you know a family office um perspective or or you know view of investing in in the space from a normal or traditional uh asset manager or a hedge fund, right? Like obviously there's probably a higher a longer time horizon um because of the the fact that you know they're family um um family offices so

they have a you know longer longer outlook in the space um and probably hedge funds are you know they have LPs to respond to so monthly performances etc. How how do you view how do you view that you know difference of um you know uh difference in in in terms of what they can invest in and what they cannot. Well firstly there is not the family office because a family office is a contrived term. It basically just means it's a pool of capital that usually comes from a family uh that had a business uh that was generating cash flow that they either sold or or or still generates cash flow. But there's no rule of what they can do. So a family office technically can do anything they

want. And they can basically say if the if the principal of the family office is 80 years old, they're probably going to be focused on capital preservation. And if the principal is 35 years old or 40 years old, they were probably going to be trying to grow the wealth. And then anything in between is possible. So they can they can really do what they like. Uh I mean multif family office is slightly different because that's more a a more regulated structure but a single family office they can really do what they like and um it's it it depends on the appetite of the of the family members is the is it is it is it needs to generate cash flow to give lifestyle choices to the family members or does it need to just grow the pie because they

have cash flow from other sides. So it's very you can't really define it as what does a family office do? But uh I mean I from my personal point of view is uh I'm trying to grow to grow the pie and I'm willing to take risk. I have a lot of venture investing in my in my portfolio. So liquid the liquid side is a is a smaller side. I mean and I don't consider it liquid. I mean for me Bitcoin is a is a base asset. It's like the S&P 500. So I I trade when I exit venture investments, I trade back into Bitcoin. So I accumulate Bitcoin over time. But that is a very spec specific to me because I'm I'm happy with the with the risk. So I'm I'm happy if I have a 20% draw down in Bitcoin because

I can buy more Bitcoin cheaper, right? >> So you have a longer time horizon, Patrick. >> Okay. Um yourself, Bob, >> the more Bitcoin, the better. Um so I would say >> Bitcoin is better than less Bitcoin and then don't rebalance. I would say there's a big difference in sophistication and in terms of the call it the the quantitative support that the hedge funds or traditional asset managers require when it comes to allocation. What I mean with that is family office is not that they would not be sophisticated but again the CIOS they have so many other options that they need to consider and uh I would say the the decision to invest I would say is is based obviously on on quantitative measures the fund etc but is much more

about the people and what is it that you're trying to achieve when I look at the people that I speak with who are much more professional allocators we're talking much more statistics we're talking about drawdowns We're talking about sharp ratios. We're talking about volatility that does matter to family offices but to a lesser extent. It's more about capital preservation. So there the one key metric is the draw down. How much draw downs are you targeting? What is it the risk that you're taking? I would say is financial managers is much more yeah much more quantitative statistics that you that you need to present.

>> Interesting. I think yeah I mean from my perspective because I'm probably biased because I run a long short systematic uh strategy but what I tend to explain to you know my potential investors is um exactly what you said. I mean draw downs are the most I think important metric in my opinion when you when in when when you uh when you want to venture into the active space right um because if you look only at sharp ratio or try or just volatility obviously some these these strategies actually by definition try to make money from volatility right especially trend following so when volatility is high that's when you will see breakout on the upside or the or the downside and that's when you're active

in the market, right? Trying to to buy, right? If if there's an upside breakout or sell, vice versa, right? So, so by by by construction, you will make money in high volatility regime. So, if then people will judge you on a high sh sorry, a a high volatility pure metric, that's obviously not not, you know, not going to make it for you. So I advise people to look more into draw downs because there is a way to actually achieve a low sharp ratio but with a with also with with a high karma ratio.

Karma ratio being your excess return with regards to your to your draw downs. And I think that's a more important metric. U another one I think in my opinion in is is how you fare during market market stress. So last last Friday was obviously a very good example uh but also you know what happened during the FTX collapse or when when um um you know when correlations really grow to one right how did your port portfolio fare um what was your max draw down in these instances um etc. So from from an active management perspective, I think lots of metrics are there uh for you to look at, but I think uh max draw down is is uh is one of the most important ones. Um

I think before we go into the um kind of looking ahead and what what we're interested or what we're excite excited about I I'd love to get your view about what you know what what evaluation metrics do you guys use right when you know not just to not just to allocate to a certain manager but like if you look at a project especially yourself Patrick because you you tend to invest VC or you meet founders etc. So how do you apart from just you know obviously liking the team or not but how do you value a project um before investing in it >> when there are no metrics obviously >> you mean in the in the venture side >> on the VC side yeah

>> well if it's early stage the only thing you can do is look at the team see how how much experience does the team have is the team technically capable to do what they what they say they can do and then ideally get a a reasonable entry valuation but it almost doesn't matter because if I'm investing in venture my my expectation is either zero so it's a total loss or it's 10 to 50x and so if I made 10 investments and one of them goes 50x then uh then I made 40x even though I lost uh nine times the other things but this is a very specific way for me to look at it so at the end of the day do I invest at a 8 million valuation a 5 million or a 12 million million

valuation doesn't really make a difference. It just makes a difference if the team the if they already have some kind of a product that is that makes sense even though I'm now I'm looking more on the like a later stage stuff preo and then of course you have metrics you have revenue and so we're looking at revenue multiples and uh and profit multiples if they are profitable so there is actually now profitable crypto companies which is wasn't the case five six years ago >> and uh so of course then you can apply normal metrics and then of course now you have listed listed crypto companies.

You have Circle Bullish, uh, Gemini just went public, Coinbase, Robin Hood is a crypto company, you know, so you have now metrics on the public market and then you can apply those to private markets and then you then you can find a valuation. This is for more mature companies, but that >> that makes sense. And of course, there should be a premium to public market valuations because of more liquidity, but uh yeah, that that's the kind of stuff I look at. Okay, Bob, how do you see it out? So before before, you know, launching or allocating to to digital asset hedge funds, I spent close to 10 years at in private equity. So very sort of familiar with the traditional metrics

and finding it really hard to apply them to uh or justify some of the crypto valuations. Why would Solana be at I don't know 200 market cap? Why would Ethereum be at such a high market cap? And so maybe that's why I sort of shifted to to more liquid strategies where where that does not matter uh as much. But if I sort of tweak the question slightly, how do we select managers? What are the key criteria that we look at uh when we evaluate uh the hedge funds that we invest in? So there's kind of four key buckets that uh that I spend time on. So the first one is what is it the strategy that they're running right? So if they are are basically selecting altcoins that obviously is something totally different. We don't do that at all. So it needs to be sort of purely quan

systematic based on large models um algorithmic execution. There can be obviously some manual trades of course but that's that's the key. Second is these strategies how do they correlate to what we already have in the portfolio? Do they have better results? Do they have worse results? How much do they correlate? We do we want to replace our existing portfolio and put someone someone new. The third one uh is the managers. So the team behind these strategies what are their obviously technical capabilities what is the background how strong is the team literally how many people do they have and where they you know were there there in 2020 uh 2022 sorry when when FDX happened and again it's fine if they had money on FTX but did they have 90% or

they had 10% there um and then four uh which is uh which is um kind of again specific to to digital asset crypto managers where do they trade what is the infrastructure that they are running and uh what exposures can you see from from there again I believe it's fine to trade on on on Binance as much as a lot of people uh don't like uh you know other exchanges but again how much money do they have uh on on exchanges and uh etc. interesting. Uh from my experience as when I was running an altcoins liquid mostly uh strategy at Alternow Wealth, we had literally like a 12 tick box kind of criteria um set. So you know team obviously one

of the most important ones uh the tech uh market adoption, the utility, where you are in the market cycle, the narrative was super important. Um but I have to say like I think I joined Patrick here mo mostly the team was the most important kind of uh criteria for us. I mean have they delivered before have they some of the teams obviously u they they change or they you know if if they don't if if they can't deliver after a year they they literally um change completely um projects or change um blockchain etc. for for the most hyped one. Uh we tend to avoid these guys. Um we want obviously persistent

teams u ideally teams that have delivered before and and obviously passionate and and and uh also good at marketing. That's that's super important for investment I think. Okay. Um >> so sorry maybe to quickly quickly jump in on that. Um so the team that's where it starts but that's where it ends right. So that's the reason why we invest in people that have probably 3 years to 8 years track record. They took the time and effort and money to actually set up a fund rather than just you know run an SMA product that you can move on uh if it doesn't doesn't sort of work out and they probably have been on that journey for for much longer. So they have seen the volatility. So um again it's not bulletproof you know but it gives uh it lowers the risk.

>> Perfect. Um and just before we end this panel, obviously we'd like to maybe a lot of people here are interested to see to have your views about where you perceive the best opportunities in the next 3 to 5 years, right? Which which bucket of investment investment styles market neutral, long, short, systematic, or should we just hold Bitcoin and sit on it? Again, LBC history has showed us that that's probably not too bad. Um what do you think, Patrick? So personally definitely have Bitcoin and sit on it. Don't do anything with it. Uh lock it away and if if if there's a market draw down, buy more. When it when market goes up, don't sell. So

that's the most important thing. So if you don't do anything else, >> dollar cost average on Bitcoin >> dollar cost average in but then don't rebalance on the way up because otherwise if you if you say I want to have 2% Bitcoin allocation, Bitcoin doubles and then you sell half your Bitcoin then making a mistake. Diamond hands diamond hands. >> And then secondly don't use leverage. Very important. Thirdly, I think at the moment what is exciting for me is uh what I would call liquid venture. So there's a lot of token projects that are in the market that have liquid tokens that are wildly under undervalued because there's many projects that have that have gone out like maybe in 3 four years ago they were they were up a lot and then they came down in the in the

bare market and they're now kind of half forgotten but they have very good tech they have good teams engaged teams and you don't need to wait. So, so as I say like invest a lot in venture, but now at the moment I'm investing less in early stage venture. So I'd rather I'm I'm allocating more in what I call liquid ventures. So basically finding these good teams that have good projects that have a lot of potential and that have revenue and so basically say double down on those and try and help them elevate their story because story is very important in crypto, right? because so that's that's one thing I'm looking at and then from a liquid point of view I look at late stage late stage pre IPO stuff. So from a systematic point of

view I don't invest in anything that's not market neutral crypto because for me that does make no sense. If I want market neutral I go into something regulated and boring and have a market neutral strategy there because if I'm taking crypto counterparty risk I want crypto upside. If I want market neutral, I want no counterparty risk. And that doesn't exist in crypto. So that's why that's not for me. But for other people, this might be this might be nice. If they have a hedge fund allocation and they like market neutral to start with, they can maybe get a little more yield from crypto market neutral. But as for my portfolio, it has uh doesn't make sense.

>> Okay. Um where do you see the space? So the most interesting part of the space be in the next 3 five years. >> So I I think there's kind of three key areas. So the first one agree with Patrick just hold Bitcoin have it in self- custody don't give it to anyone have a good allocation whatever happens is yours right so you don't have the counterpart of risk second have bitcoin but do something with it so that's why I quite like basically BDC share classes where you invest bitcoin you take you take some risk for sure but you you can generate five to 10% probably not more on bitcoin I think the days when you could generate kind of you know 20% per year I think are are gone so I think again good to accommodate more bitcoin but yes you're taking more risk and then

three is what I start seeing more and more is credit funds from traditional finance so basically traditional uh credit funds are being put on chain and hedge funds basically can um uh can can invest in those and can get extra leverage uh against those and then then the these are the loopings right uh where you can basically do that trade two or three times um happy to go into more detail how it works but you are you have someone from traditional finance uh the Apollos the ARS etc who are underwriting these loans you are relying on their origination on their due diligence skills is definitely not not riskless but I would say they do way better underwriting job than a lot of

people in in digital assets and so there's a way how you can uh how you can again generate extra yield but for that go through uh through a hedge fund go through a specialist don't try to do it at home unlike the first on. >> Awesome. Which uh which obviously would preserve our jobs as well, right? >> Self- serving obviously answering. Exactly. >> From my perspective, obviously I mean bit Bitcoin has been king, but it's it's it's like in Trafy as well as well. You you you don't want to just hold gold, right? Bitcoin is digital gold. You want some exposure to S&P 500 or NASDAQ, right? You want that Nvidia volatility that you know uh those tech companies.

So from that perspective, you won't you probably won't get get that with with Bitcoin. So you you might want to have some exposure to the composable chains, right? the Ethereum, the the Salanas, the the the Sueies if you want if you want some uh you know sexier exposure but definitely look into the com uh but again as as Patrick was saying don't have that exposure in uh uh you know in uh in the turb market have it in the spot market sorry Um so uh definitely do that.

>> No pers no purps or if you do pers then do it without leverage i.e. long shorts. For example my strategy I trade pers but zero leverage I I'm either long or short. Um but obviously again if you just want exposure in the space in a spot in a spot manner again digital gold bitcoin have some composible chains to diversify to you know a akin to the S&P NASDAQ as we said u you you've got Ethereum Solana Sui for example um and also I mean Patrick is not so keen on market neutral or or more active u uh uh investment strategies but I I think uh

to in my opinion to lure traditional um asset managers into the space they like to see those stable returns and for them obviously 10% or 15% annual returns is actually a lot higher than any other tread instrument can can provide them right so I think it's still interesting to to pursue those you know those market neutral strategies obviously what what we have seen this year is uh some of these market neutral strategies haven't performed as well as as 2024 be just because funding rates have have gone down. Uh but there are ways still to achieve to achieve those kind of returns in a very uh risk adjusted um manner.

Right. Uh before before we close the the panel, I'd like I just I'd like to actually ask you a question. Do you think that um um you know that that recommended recommended one to 5% Bitcoin exposure from from you know uh Larry Frink and you know the big money managers do you think they will remain as as low as you know one two to 5% or do you see that recommended diversification you know bitcoin bit bitcoin exposure growing more to the five to 10% you know I'm talking about the big guys the vanguards the black rocks etc.

So, so I think that anyone who has a zero allocation, they are actively taking a view that Bitcoin is worthless. And if they don't have a view, then they should probably basically copy the normal allocation, which means Bitcoin is 2 trillion out of I don't know 950 trillion overall assets. So, they should probably have a have a have a similar allocation, which is obviously still very small. I would adjust that for for a number of factors. I think that that allocation will will grow 5 to 10%. >> Great.

>> Yeah, I think five I mean 3 to 5% is a good starting position and then as I said if you don't rebalance it will go to 10% eventually. Right. So that's the main thing you don't need to change your allocation. You just need to let let crypto do its thing. Right? Okay. So start with 5%. Don't take profits. If it doubles leave it at 10. Thank you so much guys and thank you for the audience. >> Thank you. Thank you.