The Race to Replace Mainnet | Ian Unsworth, Kairos Research

Transcript

I haven't really seen a super ambitious technical road map around like Hyper EVM which like I think they should they should absolutely pursue because like they have all of the users clearly why not just kind of like really you know shoot for the stars. I understand that like the core team is very much focused on just like the per decks and like the club and all this sort all these other things, but you know if you have a chance to dethrone mainet like ETH mainet as like the like EVM finance hub, why not just go for the jugular and just like really try to do it. Hey guys, just wanted to give a quick shout out to today's sponsor Echodin. We'll hear more about their decentralized order book on Apptos later

today. But for now, let's get into the episode. What's up, guys? This is Bokio, the bad host, and the better host, Danny. Uh, today we have a very, very important announcement for you. We are hosting Permissionless in Brooklyn. Um, what dates? It's going to be in June, June 24th through the 26th. Very good. Um, you can use code 0x10 to buy your tickets. Uh, we're going to do lots and lots of stuff. um dinners, games, you'll get to meet the whole crew, the OX research crew, hopefully a bunch of the Block Works research and other Block Works crew and uh maybe a dunk tank.

We're going to have fun. Uh whatever we can smooch off of Yano and Meo, we're going to do it. So, if you are a Zerx Research listener, make sure to use code 0x10 to buy your tickets. Danny, any parting words? And we'll see you there. Nothing said on Xerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is forformational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Pocachio, Ryan, and our guests may hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed. What's up, guys? Welcome back to another episode of Zerx Research. Today, I'm joined by Danny and Ian from Chyros Research.

Thanks for coming on, Ian. I know you're a very, very busy man these days. I'm extremely busy. If I'm not on the podcast with you, I'm attributing Stalin quotes to you or sending telegram messages. So, I'm glad I could take time off both of those things to be here. Very good. Very good. Please um stop the Stalin stuff. I'm happy with the Telegram messages. That's completely okay. I'll I'll see what I can do. You were on a Pump Fun stream, right? Or TPB. What were you on? Yeah, it was um it was a pump fun stream with uh uh Carl from Sixman Ventures.

Yeah. Um yeah, so that he's kind of starting a podcast over there. Whole idea is to try to I guess utilize the platform more. Uh the live stream platform is actually pretty good and there's also I mean they're uh early investors to my understanding and pump fund like one of the few uh you know people are able to fund that team. So, makes sense that they're using the product. Uh, and it was just, yeah, it was a really good experience just kind of seeing what's going on over on the pump live stream. The funniest part is definitely the chat. Uh, but I think there's some real potential there. Um, I think it just kind of adds a new layer, I guess, to like the engagement that you

see with live streams. But yeah, I mean, everyone is obviously wondering when when Bo token. So, I think that's the never perfect way up there. Zero chance for B token. Um, what was the chat like? Was it mostly bots or was it like actual people? Um, my understanding it just by like looking at it and I mean this all anecdotal. I don't really know who's a bot and who's not, but there's a lot of it seemed real for the most part. There's a lot of censoring going on as well of like you know if you're saying like crazy things it was moderated. So, I mean, I think that was one of the big critiques um last time when not last time, but like originally when live

stream went when it launched on on fun, you were seeing a lot of pretty crazy things uh understandably, but yeah, this seemed to be very tamed and team seems to be working on a couple updates for some feedback from yesterday, but yeah, it was cool. Um, Danny, what do you think about I'm I'm a big like I don't know if you can get into I don't know if you can get into um I don't know how easy it is to get into like the live streaming thing. I feel like on the like traditional side with YouTube and Twitch. Um it used to be a lot of Twitch and now like I guess YouTube like there was Facebook for a

while. Facebook was I know they were like signing massive deals paying off a lot. Um, YouTube obviously has like a decent chunk now. We had like kick for us sometime. Um, I'm curious what you think if that's like a valuable if the way do you think that the pump fune stream could work out is like what I want to ask, but I haven't been able to do so. Yeah. Um, and I just wrote about this, so it's very timely, but the I think the talk about like Twitch YouTube kick is really interesting because I made a parallel to that in writing about pump in my most recent report, which is live on Blockworks Research. Check it out, subs.

Um, and I dropped a thread recently as well talking about it, but some highle takes. The big thing is like like you're saying, Twitch has been a longtime dominator of the category. And I think really the biggest thing there is that there are very clear and like strong network effects around these things. And so you know back in 2018 I want to say maybe 2019 um you know you had teams like Mixer come along who tried to do this model of just like let's snipe you know the top streaming talent on the Twitch platform bring them over to our live streaming platform. hopefully they'll bring their audience and then we can like kind of get some momentum from there. Uh it failed miserably like you

know they they signed up Ninja Shroud like some of the top names at the time who had you know massive viewer counts you know tens of thousands hundreds of thousands of viewers um you know on a regular like daily basis and it was basically just like a big waste of money. Uh nothing really materialized out of it and then Microsoft which owned Mixer shut the thing down maybe a year two years in. Um, it's funny though that then like YouTube and Facebook and now Kick like kind of followed up and just did the exact same thing for the most part. Like YouTube followed on, they paid a bunch of streamers to like go to their platform, big contracts. Um, I guess the difference here is that like obviously YouTube is already a big like video platform. I think for them the

bigger thing was just like building a compelling product. Um, and I wonder if like onboarding an initial set of streamers was, you know, to use them as like a sounding board maybe to kind of design that product a little bit. Um, but I we've seen some similar things like over the past couple years where they signed some talent, their contracts ran out or like they stopped paying big deals because they realized it was pointless. A bunch of those creators went back, but they do they did kind of like slowly eek out. They have like 20% market share in live streaming now and Twitch is something like 60 70%. So they were able to build something. Yeah.

Still. Wow. Um, so they were able to build up something, but I I would imagine that owes more to like they already have YouTube clearly already has like something of a network effect, right? They already have video content. It's it can't be that hard for them to get people to go from watching regular videos to watching live videos. Like I don't think that that's that crazy. Um, Kick is a little bit different, right? their I think their model is actually interesting in relation to pump fun because kick you know you're taking a casino which owns them stake um the business owns kick and I think that the kind of idea here is you do the same thing you get some big streaming deals right they signed like Aiden Ross XQC

these were massive deals like NBA superstar type deals like $50 million hundred million deals um which is absolutely absurd and insane and you're not going to get the money back from that. But I think the goal is you can onboard some of these people, get viewers looking at streamers and content on your platform, and maybe these guys are gambling on stream, maybe they're doing casino stuff on stream, maybe they're doing slots on stream, whatever it is. Uh, and maybe you can get some of those viewers to then like go to your stake products and then like gamble themselves and then, you know, turn a viewer like grab a viewer, turn a viewer into a customer and turn that into some recurring revenue. Um, I don't know if it's I don't know if that's going to

work for them. Maybe it will. They have like five six% market share and they've paid a lot of money um to some of those top streamers. So, like we'll kind of see. I think they need time to see if that's ever going to net out if it makes sense. But pump is like an interestingly kind of similar thing, right? You're trying to mix trading coins with audiences around streamers. Um, and I think at the very least like there's a clear opportunity to grab web 3 native or like cryptonative people, streamers, content creators, put them on the platform. You already have like an audience of people who already like to trade coins. Um, and so there's kind of a natural fit there. But to your point, like the real question, which I'm

totally unsure of, but they need to somehow find a way to if this works out, if like cryp cryptonative streaming with coins is cool, people like doing that, they like to gamble on it, they need to find out how they can bridge the gap to web two because I think, you know, regular audiences, I don't know if they care, maybe they do, maybe they don't. The thing is, every time you bring on regular audiences and you give them like the opportunity to make money, they just make the money, full stack it, and then just leave. Like the same thing happened with Launchcoin where it's like, oh, we're onboarding web two people. They launched a few products and tokens to fund raise and then they just like full stacked and left. So, it's a bit it's a

bit difficult. I think the difference here is like there are parallels in streaming today, right? So live streamers do a bunch of different things like paid text to speech just like direct donations for for income from their viewers. They do like gamba gambling like polls and things on stream. And Twitch has a native system and YouTube as well, I think, where you can I mean, these are like non-monetary, but you earn like points for watching and then you can gamble your points on polls and things like that. Um, so I think that they see that there's an opportunity like these platforms already see an opportunity for like gambling like interactive games on top of the live streaming experience. Um, so you know, if pumping like crypto coins and

like trading the coins can make that even like more, you know, have crazy upside and outcomes and get people like really excited about it, you know, there's an opportunity that it's it can turn into like a kind of lasting feedback loop for regular viewers. Let's see, Ian, you unmuted and then got mogged by Danny. What do you think? Typical. But yeah, I I mean I think I mean Danny's kind of like hitting it right on the on the head there. Um trying to get the right audience over to Pump Fun to do what they would otherwise do on Twitch or any of these other platforms I think is kind of the hard thing. Uh like anecdotally, a lot of the comments were like people, you know, calling the token a scam. And it's

just like kind of like the typical like run-of-the-mill Pump Fun comment section if you've ever checked it. Uh people asking for like $5. Um people trolling me. I was getting a lot of trolls. Uh I had like I was Yeah, I know. It was It was really kind of heartbreaking. Like I was I was in my friend's uh kitchen and they kept making comments about the stove behind me. Um so I mean I'm really unpacking that all still. I mean lots of trauma to deal with. Um but yeah, I mean it was it was an interesting crowd for sure.

Um, like I think once it was also like the first actual podcast they did. So I think like once you kind of build up an audience and people know what it is, then I think it kind of gets more interesting. Like imagine if Up Only had like a some sort of social token when they were streaming like last cycle. Those were always so fun to tune into. Uh, and you were kind of just like keeping score like score I guess more or less on like the timeline of what the peanut gallery was saying. Uh, but I mean there's always funny stuff happening. So I mean that would be a wish list to see a up only live stream with a pump fund token. That would just be really cool. But yeah, in general, I

think that's the biggest hurdle for them is just bringing on people that realize what it is and um kind of discerning that from the traditional meme memecoin community. I'm surprised. I'll just one more thought here is like there's some clear opportunities, right? Like, you know, people memed about the LA Vape Cabal, but like that's probably your target like initial set of creators, right? We want those people on the platform because like they do have pretty big audiences and the people in those audiences like they're watching them because they're talking about coins and trading coins and like that's the whole point. You know, Anom on Pump Fund would probably go insane. Gainzy is on there, but you know, he's not maybe as relevant as he used to be, but it's exactly that archetype is probably the

sort of like first target, you know, creator. Yeah, I I tuned into one of Gain's yesterday beforehand before going live just to like kind of do some some DD because I'd only just seen clips of it on Twitter and I mean it's you know it's hilarious when you tune in. Uh I would highly recommend it for anyone who's trying to do some some some research themselves on some of this cutting edge technology that we're dealing with. Gen Z investors talking about watching a live stream as due diligence on their investments.

I I I will say one thing. There's a whole side of crypto that I I see sometimes. I'm like, "What the [ __ ] are you guys doing?" And it's the same people who watch like Orangey and the LA Vape Cabal. But I mean, that's the new like there's also idiots who watch Adden Ross and all of those. So, I feel like that's like we're onboarding the next generation of Adam Rosses onto Pump Fun and there's nothing that anybody can do about it. And it brings REV And that's all that matters. Let's never forget that 100%. And if you ever see content from like like Aiden Ross or you know even bigger like like a speed or like I show speed or like Kaisenat like some of the really big names now like the type

of stuff that they do is like crazy flashy like show off you know go to China and like you know have people on the street walking up to you like holy crap this guy or like jumping over cars on like like they're doing wacky stuff and so you know having coins and like things tradable that like this there's already like a very clear attention game and a lot of like um excitement around that. So, you know, I do there are synergies here. It's just like tapping into that in the right way that gets like this consistent user base spun up.

Yeah totally. And you want to go ahead? No, no, please. And there's like I've seen this thing of like it's like a survey of what uh ideal careers would be for people based off like uh it was like when they did the survey in like the year 2000 whatever ideal like careers is like like astronaut fireman policeman lawyer doctor. A lot of them now like the top one is streamer, influencer, like YouTuber something to like the tune of that. like some sort of like uh content producer, which I think is really interesting. Um it's just kind of like where does this all cap out? Not entirely sure. Like on the stream

yesterday, we had like 150 viewers like to 200 on on average at most all times. Um, so and that's just for like some rand like we were we were talking about like the uh like change to Salana's consensus the like the Alpen glow uh like white paper that was like released should accelerate. So I mean it I guess it kind of depends on what kind of content people are talking about what people want to see but uh I mean there's certainly an appetite for it amongst the youth it seems right. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Echodin. Echodin is a decentralized orderbook based exchange built on Apptos with a mission to create a scalable institutional grade trading platform. To learn more about Ecodin, follow the link in today's show notes.

As always, investments in blockchain technology involve risk. Terms and conditions apply. Do your own research. Let's talk about Alpeno. Let's let's stop talking about pump fun because if we talk more about the youth and social media trends, I'm going to go to my like we're going to all stop using social media take again. All that I've read is that well all that I've heard is that the Alpenlow consensus changes are going to lead to the break even cost being a lot lower than it was before because from what I understand and correct me if I'm wrong please um currently to spin up a validator what people typically will do is like they'll sign up for the delegate program which I guess reduces voting fees or they pay for the voting

fees um over the first few years and they'll match your stake. So that's how like people are onboarded and then you have to attract stake. Um for those who are not familiar, Solana has voting fees which actually apparently make up a lot of the cost like a lot more than the hardware which I did not know. Um and now they're planning on cutting that out right? Yeah. Yeah, that's that's correct. So, um, as it is right now, validators that are onboarded through the foundation delegation program, they do have a reduced voting cost that is kind of being phased out in general, um, as we're not going to have voting costs anymore. And if you're just kind of

looking at like voting and its impact on the chain in general as well as aside from like validator economics, uh like 33% of all transactions on Salana are vote transactions because you have like let's call it 2,000 odd validators um voting in every single slot. Every single slot is like 400 milliseconds. So, by the time I finish this sentence, like there's been plenty of like th tens of thousands of transactions already sent that are vote only. And because you're voting on every single slot, um this is actually quite a big cost to validators themselves. Like that's like roughly like one soul on average per

day. So, you know, if you're denominating in soul, um one soul equals one soul. But like as the price goes up, you can argue that it's like kind of more costly. Um but yeah, with Alpenlow, I mean that's going to be completely removed. It's a really really interesting um talk and paper in general. I can share the links with you guys. You can put them in the show notes. Yeah. But it's a really pragmatic approach of uh the Anza team really kind of looking at the current consensus on Salana, ripping that apart piece by piece. Like they literally like take out proof of history. They take out which is like kind of the main thing that actually causes a lot of these costs. Um and take

out all these pieces and just replace them with two core things of voter and rotor. Uh rotor is the block propagation. And then voter is kind of more like the actual voting. So that's now taking place offchain um in a different way. But overall it's this is going to lead to a 100x improvement on finality. So current finality for Salana uh even though like blocks are super fast. Uh finality is 12.8 seconds. Um and so this is going to take finality down to actually 150 milliseconds. And the closest benchmark to my understanding is 400 milliseconds. And while they didn't name the team, I believe it's Manad

which has been able to achieve that. Uh so I mean that's pretty impressive. Um, and it's a really it's a really interesting model, really pragmatic approach and pretty exciting to actually see like a competitive client environment now on Salana because obviously you had fired dancer which was um I mean everyone's very excited about fire dancer and kind of everything they were able to demo and test net and all these other things but uh now you know Anza and their agave client is going to be you know cranking up pretty high and that's going to actually make it even better for fire dancer. Yeah. Um, we've seen actually quite a bit of improvements on the

Solana side this last year. Uh, I feel like before 2022, I didn't really care that much about Solana to be honest with you guys. Um, like especially about the consensus and the updates, but I feel like in the past year we had SIMD228, which eventually ended up failing, but it was very controversial and a lot of people talked about it. SIMD 96 or is it 196? Ian, please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it 96? It's 96. Uh, you're talking about the priority fees being able to be distributed. Yes, 96. Thank you very much. And then they had one, two, three as well. And now they have consensus changes and they have fire dancer coming up.

Um, I'm curious if you guys think there's any differences in the way that they approach it versus like how other chains approach it specifically with like how updates are because Ian you kept hinting that it's pragmatic and I'm curious why you think it's more pragmatic than other people potentially hard to benchmark pragmat pragmatism versus other people's pragmatism because I mean the concept itself right is just like yeah trying to take an idea, looking up something for what it is and piecing it apart and seeing if like you can actually do it better.

Um, and I mean it it's also kind of a big ego thing I would say as well. It's like say that even though like you're the chain with the fast like most activity today, you're the fastest chain that's used by the most people, um, you can still have room for improvements. And so I thought like that kind of whole thing was very interesting because um if you're in the lead, you're often not worried about your yourself, you know, and I feel like Salon that's kind of like Salon's core ethos I would say post FTX is uh all the builders that were there from that time and all the engineers

have somewhat of like what I would kind of call like underdog psychosis where they were constantly ly being, you know, bombarded by the ETH folks of saying like, you know, all these things are wrong with your chain, blah, blah, blah. It's never going to work. Um, there's no real action over there. And, you know, you had like I mean, you guys kind of remember that version of Mert on Twitter where he was just an absolute keyboard warrior. Uh, like just kind of dispelling a lot of that FUD. Um, and they've, you know, walk the walk and talk the talk now. So, I think it's actually pretty cool to see them still interested on improving even even further. Yeah, I think at one point Matt

started Matt Matt continued to [ __ ] on ETH and um I think I realized like at that point that it was like they weren't an underdog anymore because it was like it felt bad when he did that. I was like you're just punching down now. Since then he stopped doing that. Um, I think he realized as well that he's like punching down. Um, I had four pre-written questions for this pod specifically prepared. Um, these are generally like things that I've wanted to talk about and I feel like we never get to talk about them, so I'm going to do it.

Um what apps, these are very general questions. What apps do we like? What apps do we not like? What apps do we want to see? This is the first question. I'll give you guys a minute to think, but that might be a bit long. I'll jump in with what I like and what I want to see. um obviously very consumer focused and I wrote about Axiom recently and I think they took made a very obvious choice to combine soul memes and hyperlquid pers like that was that felt like a layup um that you know the other trading bots and like trading apps just had not jumped on yet. Um I think that's cool. What I want to see more of though

is like, you know, Axiom's a web terminal and a lot of these trading bots are still it's like they got a Telegram interfa interface. Maybe they have a website, a web terminal as well. Um, you know, give me an iOS, Android native mobile app. Uh, make it clean, make it, you know, give me like the Robin Hood experience on my phone for like trading and looking at assets and stuff. Um, that's where I think we're headed and that's what I want to see. Um, and there's just still like there's still like these small frictions. Like if anyone is trading like on their phone or on their computer or like doing anything with assets on chain, it's like maybe have a wallet here and a wallet there and maybe those

are like disconnected or maybe have your phone thing that only does you only do certain things on and it's like, okay, maybe I'll look up the asset on this site and then I got to copy the CA into this app to trade it and then go back and I can look at my balance in my wallet after I trade. It's there's there's a lot of friction in these things still. It's like sure if you're using Trading Bot maybe like that is all contained, but you're probably still pulling up like deck screener tabs and like looking over at your Twitter feed and this that and the other thing. There's an opportunity I think to streamline this and I'm just I'm excited for someone to like really put more of those pieces together. Can I I agree with all of your thanks as always. I will say one thing. This is something

that both I don't know if you guys know them Evan SS6 and Pepper. They're both on Twitter. It's fine. Um, they both shield this app quite a bit. It's called Slingshot. I don't know if you guys have heard of it. What's like Why don't people use it? Go ahead, Ian. I was going to say I've literally I've literally only heard it from their tweets. I haven't used it, but I've seen I mean Evan's a hilarious account because he's very smart and very funny. But yeah, I've only seen him like sign off on tweets with like Slingshot the same way people sign off with Hyperlid. But yeah, I haven't actually used it, but uh if it's anything like what Danny was just describing, I mean, it sounds really nice. Yeah, I I think

they lost volume and users because obviously people use apps because they're like they at least initially onboarded because they think they're going to get an airdrop. Um, and then they got bought out by Magic Eden. So, I think maybe people are assuming that there won't be another airdrop, which I don't know obviously. Um, Danny, one question I always have about this the iOS thing. Ian, we will get to your choices as well. Um, is that I feel like people like Telegram apps because it is close to what they use.

So, like I'm all day on Telegram and that's why I like Telegram interfaces. My worry with the iOS app is that it's like if you lo like Vector, you know, like it's not great. I mean, I guess they're not great as well, but I feel like does that make sense to you? Like my workflow is like very much like being on Telegram and then just being able to buy a [ __ ] on if I have to buy a [ __ ] gun to my head, I'll do it through Telegram. I'm Yeah. Yeah, I feel you there. I mean I think I I think that is a big part of the telegram like dominance of these things still. So obviously like Axiom like they came out of the same scene

they didn't use a telegram bot like you know incumbents at the time but you know the best product experience kind of I think propelled them there and then their go to market strategy. I think that's a big piece here. Like why is Slingshot not killing it despite potentially having a great product? Like yeah, I've seen Evan SS6 tweet about it. I haven't seen like, you know, an Anom or like other big personalities. Like I think ultimately that is an important aspect here is like getting large communities interested, invested, whatever that means, um, into your product. And you know, I think a part of that for some of these is like the referral rewards systems are a meaningful piece there, right? The you know, some of these big KLs, they can

get a ton of money from that. But, um, as to like connecting it to the chats, um, I I think that's meaningful. Like PvP trade is a is a cool example like where you can do the trades like right in your chat feed. But at the same time, I don't I don't know that I necessarily or that most people necessarily like need that feature. Like it's great to be able to share like I just bought this token. I don't know that I necessarily need to surface like okay he just went long in my chat and I can see that as long as there's like very like limited friction to this guy sent me a coin and I can buy it. And I think, you know, just having dedicated mobile apps with like the right, you know, whatever

Nikita Beer could hack something out where it's like you send somebody an iOS message with a CA and then it like pops up your freaking, you know, your trading app and it it sets it to auto buy a certain amount. Like I'm sure there's some, you know, there's some iOS and Android geniuses that could make really compelling experiences um to where there's it doesn't feel like there's any friction. And I think that's the the important part. Yeah, I agree. I um I will say I do like PVB trade. Um as I've always said, I like the social aspect. I think they did it right as opposed to Vector.

Um Ian, what do you think? What are your favorite applications to use on the blockchain? I mean, yeah, mainly just DeFi stuff. And I feel like the DeFi experience now is actually just like very good. Um, I haven't had a bad DeFi experience in a while and it's kind of made me almost a bit numb to I guess how bad it used to be. Like do you remember like do you remember trying to not even trying to, but do you remember like $200 swaps on ETH mainet for a token that was not worth it at all? like like that was um I mean that's a lot of my memory of like DeFi now.

Anytime I want to go like buy something uh on whatever platform it is um it's really smooth uh price slippage haven't had an issue with that at all. Um I feel like there's a lot of good like protection there now for like good execution. Um, and so what I really want to see now, I guess, is like I'm actually quite excited for the the Seeker to ship. I ordered one like a while back and like finally got an email saying like they're going to start shipping in August or something. So my desire is just Yeah.

Yeah. The Salana phone. Um, I'm excited to kind of have like a specific hardware device that could be used for like crypto gaming or something like that. and just like I really just want to play like very basic games on it. Uh and have a very consumer only experience with it. Um and maybe be doing like running like deep pin stuff in the background if there's any like things that require that. Uh or any like services you can like just opt into when you're not using your phone. Um but yeah, I mean I think like the overall DeFi experience right now is like very very good. uh which is also I think why there's so much effort towards bringing in like uh new pools of

institutional capital to deploy there um and you know all sorts of like RWA products, structured credit products um these sorts of things because more or less like I think we we've done quite well on DeFi. Uh and it's like it's really only going to get faster and it's going to be faster to the point where like our perception we're not going to really recognize it too much. Uh but if like you're running like you know uh trading bots or anything like this, it's like you're maybe maybe you'll notice the advantage because it's showing up in your in your data that you're or whatever KPIs you're tracking. Um but overall, yeah, I think like the I I don't really like the uh over financialization

of DeFi, like just trying to take this and like push it towards like a social aspect. uh which is I I understand like a bit hypocritical as well like opening up with saying that early like the Pump Fun live stream. So it's like I think it's I think it just kind of depends. I don't I think there's a space for it and like Pump Fun is very much a space that's like um thrived off of speculation, degeneracy, just kind of like a lot like fun like kind of cryptonative and uh internet stuff. But yeah, I think that's a good like match for it. But overall, it's like I definitely don't feel the same way around like Zora for example.

Uh which I feel like is a very stale experience. Um but yeah. Yeah. I um I think the Zora pump fun like dichotomy is the same as what I mentioned which was like vector um PVP trade where like one very clearly notices what like the current trade it like the current workflow is and how to fit into it. The other is like no charts. Um we're doing Instagram for [ __ ] doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Engineered to meet the demands of highfrequency traders and retail alike, Echodin redefineses onchain trading with lightning fast performance and decentralized security. Echodin is

building a scalable institutional-grade trading platform with execution speeds as low as 5 to 15 milliseconds, deep liquidity, and zero maker fees that leverages Aptos' cutting edge technology for spot and perpetual futures markets. To learn more, follow the link in today's show notes. And thanks again to Echodin for sponsoring today's episode. As always, investments in blockchain technology involve risk. Terms and conditions apply. Do your own research. I wanted to go to the back to the devices like the Seeker. I would say like I'm relatively excited about a lot of the crypto devices that are being built. Um I ordered a Seeker. I ordered a SU gaming thing. I ordered a I ordered a Pulse, you know, fitness band. A bunch of stuff. one because you know airdrop

probably makes it free to me at the end. Um, two, I I I like what you mentioned there of just like, you know, there's always a reason to have like, you know, if you have a Ledger or like some other cold storage device, but it would be cool like you're saying to just have like if I have this other device and I can just like do crypto things on it and I don't have to like mix that with my traditional like my normal phone and you know avoid any kind of crosscontamination there. Whatever you want to call it, but like have this sort of like safe device to use for that type of stuff. um feels like a great idea.

The one thing is like the first phone the battery was dog [ __ ] So I make the phone better. Whatever. Make it have a [ __ ] good battery. I don't care. Get make sure it has 24 hours of battery life cuz that thing was awful. 24 hours battery life is quite a bit though. No anything. It It was so bad. Like I I would I used the thing for a while and it would just have to sit at my desk plugged in and when I ever I unplugged it, it's like if I looked at it later, it was like 10% and I need to plug it in again. Like not using it, which does not like for a phone. Come on. It should last for a day with usage.

Yeah. I um I remember the camera also wasn't very good. Ian, what are you gonna say? Yeah, I didn't get the first iteration. I heard a lot of these same complaints. I know Teddy had one, so I'll have to debrief with him and see kind of what um how he feels about it. But I mean, to your point, Boach, he definitely made his money back on airdrops. If you guys kind of remember that uh the bonk that was like given to all the original seekers and then there's the people are trying to like arb the bonk price of the seek like that came with the seeker on like thousand seekers on eBay and all this other stuff. But yeah, Danny, who made the uh Pulse? Who made the uh the fitness band?

Yeah, it's um Pulse. What are they called? Pulse No Limits, I think. Um they're on Salana as well, right? They're on Salana and Monad. Salana, Monad. Yeah. And it's basically like a Whoop, but I think the point is basically like do a Whoop band, but then, you know, put the data or like rewards and challenges and things like on chain, like gify it, have points, you know, kind of go like the Helium route with a whoop band. Yeah. Uh, and I think it's interesting like, you know, I don't know how realistic it is, but I've seen some things of like, you know, maybe have like AI agent apps that can then do like automated workout plans. based on the data that you know your band

provides it, stuff like that. I just think it's like an interesting it's a fun spin on this idea. We're seeing a lot of phones, so to see like a fitness band um and like gaming devices and other things. I I just found that interesting. Yeah, I think that is pretty cool. Um did you guys ever use Steen when it was out? No, for like a day. I still use Stein from time to time. Uh, it's I cuz it's like if I'm going to be doing something anyways and I'm like just getting coins for it, that's fun. How much do you make per kilometer? I mean, man, we'll have to debrief after this. But it is it's got to be like fractions of pennies at this point. But

at one point, you know, I remember I was getting like like $100 for a run. I was like I was like surely surely this is sustainable. This is the new paradigm. It's it's here. run for a living. I'm I'm gonna quit my job and just run. I don't have to work. I just run and but uh No. Yeah. Like the the model obviously was like kind of I mean not kind of it was definitely flawed there. Um but I think if like you can just attach incentives to things people are already going to do, that's also like the same reason I'm excited around like just like kind of basic um gaming on phones and stuff like that. Uh because it's just like people are already going

to be doing these things. I don't think like the Killer Crypto game is going to be like one that competes like GTA 6 or um any of the big games for that matter, you know? So quite excited for these sorts of things. The killer crypto game might just be GTA 6, right? They can just put it in there. They'll they'll figure it out. Um, I like your point though, like like gamification of exercise like just feels that feels like a winner to me because I think there's a ton of people who don't would never care to walk or run and like obviously people went and did step in when that was a thing. So, if you can broaden that with like a wellness thing, if your Apple Watch like really like incentivized you to do, you know, make your health numbers like look better, stuff like

that. I think there's ways to kind of like, you know, trick people to be a little bit healthier, which is uh a nice thing. Maybe the economics don't really work out, but like I agree with you for me. uh you know I I mean I work out regularly so but like having a plan and like oh I improved like I did this run and then I did more distance like that type of stuff like having uh a plan and like kind of rewarding yourself for that I think is an important part. So I think building up products around that is important like Strava obviously people love to like compete with their friends and do challenges and things like that. So there's there's definitely a place for it. What is Strava?

It's essentially just like a running app. uh like you track your runs on. It's like a running social app. I would say you track your runs and then you can share the route that you did and people follow you and people can give you like kudos. Um, so like you could create some sort of model where it's like if you're sharing a lot like new fun routes and people are actually then verifiably running those routes then maybe you're like earning rewards in some sort of token because like otherwise like how how else I don't really know if Strava is trying to continue to grow right now or like how aggressive that company actually is because like I mean again it's like something people are already doing. Um, so like a plugin there I think would just be like kind of like

edited like Field of the Fire. Uh, and it's even better if you don't really know crypto the same way like Blackbird is. Um, which is another kind of odd one. It's like that's like restaurant rewards. I have a lot of like friends that don't do crypto at all, but they have Blackbird and they had no idea that um you're like there's actually like a token on the back end and you can pay with a token and all these other sorts of things. But yeah, I think that area is still largely unexplored, but I just don't know how scalable or investable it is. Yeah, investability is a question, but it does feel like it, you know, there's an angle to go from and people have talked about this idea forever. So

we'll see if it really happens. But to go from the model where like every app is free and they just take all your data to like okay you use an app and then they pay you for your data with a token and then they can monetize that data by selling it to somebody else right who does something with it market research whatever makes products um and you get some reward out of it which you know we've had these little experiments right Stephen others but it's not really like taken off at scale obviously because people like Apple and Google I mean there's a few that have worked out like grasp that's I mean it's not stepping obviously it's not a consumer app but what I mean is like if the data

is worth something which like I don't know how much it's worth to track your run Danny no offense you're great but like what am I going to do if you run like if I'm a company I I'm not sure I feel like I need more intimate data like I think the health data for like a fitness band you know if it's got your heart rate and different things like that and they've got that on a wide population like you know yeah drug companies things like that like it seems like it's an angle but they'll obviously have to sell that to them right that they got to pitch that yeah it's tough um actually talking about grass that's the one product that I really want since we're talking about product and software and whatnot they're supposed to ship this

like they've posted about it or it's in their docs or something they have like a hardware ware device. Um, I don't like having it on my computer. I want like a separate hardware device that I can just run, connects to my Wi-Fi, just does whatever it has to do. Don't think they're going to give me one. Don't know how I can even get one. Um, apart from that, apps I don't like. You guys didn't say apps I don't like, which is fine. Apps I don't like. Um, no, actually I I was going to say wolf swap, but Ian, I actually want to bring this up. You know that thing that you mentioned where it's like apps now feel really really good.

You don't bridge over to new chains because if you bridge over to a new chain you always see the same I assume these are like larger operations in Eastern Europe and in uh Asia and it's like they launch on every EVM chain that they can like if you bridge to abstra abstract abstract um which is also another streaming thing. Wow this is very late. I'm just answering like three questions from before. But um Wolf Swatch Wolf Swap launched on abstract like hour two hour like the first two hours and if you use that application you can see that like we've like obviously the big boys have changed a lot but if you like miss that old experience of like holy [ __ ] how the hell am I going to do this?

whereas like you try to like change the tokens and it like completely resets the entire website and you have to like redo everything. When a new chain launches, use the first decks and you're going to want to kill yourself. It's incredible. Um applications that I don't like. I don't know. I don't really want to [ __ ] on anybody today. Um what I'm looking forward to mobile apps 100%. I'm surprised we don't have any good ones yet. I mean, last time Ryan was here, it was like Jupiter is good. I checked it out. It's all right. It's nothing special. It's just like swaps on the phone, which I guess is what you want.

Um, that's it. Any I know I didn't say much to go off there, but yeah, I think I think there's no bad apps coming to mind because we already know the good ones to use and like we're not like you only really discover bad apps. So, I would say if like you're unsatisfied with the one you're currently using, you go to try something else. Um, or if you're like you're just like out there, you know, just trying literally every decks on whatever chain you're on. Uh, maybe you're farming it, maybe you're just a power user. Um, but overall, yeah, I don't I can't really think of any like particularly uh upsetting experiences I've had. Yeah, I'm actually

I think unis swap is kind of [ __ ] now. They like hold your hand a bit too much. I think all of Eve DeFi has started to do this thing where it's like kind of trying to appeal to the normies. Um, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me because it's like 10,000 people who make who spend most of the fees and do most of the volume and then you're like clearly trying to onboard this these other people who don't have interest in crypto and those that do have interest in crypto can just use like a basic crypto app and you don't have to like very simplify this. I think the biggest offender in this um probably Drift whose like perpetual product now they fixed it. Before it was like two buttons. You

couldn't see the order book at all. It was just like why? Like who's going to trade per to just like buy and sell? Like who who does pers like that? Um unis swap. I don't know if you guys use matcha. Do either of you use M? No. Neither of you guys use Ethereum in general as I assume, right? If I do, if I do have to use it, I use Cal Swap because Okay. It it moves. That's true. I use I don't use it because it gives me money back. I I use it because it moves when you when your transaction goes through. When that first happened, it really freaked me. I was like, what the [ __ ] is going on? Yeah, it's it's definitely scared my life a couple times. I've always used I've used Defy

Llama's Llama Swap for a long time and I just it's been a good product and I've not cared to get outside of that to be honest. That's fair. I I I love DeFi Lama. I'm a big like front end guy for some reason. I don't like their front end so I I can't use it. I Or you want it to like look pretty or something? I wanted I wanted to have, you know, that corporate style that everybody has where it's like, you know, like wide and like clean boxes. I like that. I want like very like clean borders and stuff. It's a great product.

The main thing I'll say, we're talking EVM is like, and you're asking about like products we don't like. the like the EVM is the product that I don't like and like layer twos and having to deal with it of just like if I want to like I've got you know stables and ETH on different chains and it's like spread out but then it's like when something happens on bass or it happens on you know I played a game on I played Cambria on abstract or like this thing on arbitum like it it's honestly it's just like an annoyance to be like okay I need to bridge some funds okay and then I need to like I'm on this chain and I'm doing this thing on this chain instead of that chain. and like, "Oh, I need ETH or oh, I need USD." Like, there's just

so much like headache to that and it's it's not a big deal, you know, having done 2020 2021 style DeFi stuff which was much worse objectively. Um but just compared to like you know going on Solano or not that there's much happening on like Swertos comparatively but like the experience of just everything is in one place and I don't need to you know mess around with that garbage is it's less headache and it's just it's more convenient. Yeah I um I think I only hold stables on Ethereum um and I also don't hold anything on Solon actually. I will say this on the

pod. This should go out on Monday. It is May 29th. I like you know that meme where it's like I bridged over all of my finances to hyper liquid hyper EVM. I think because the thing is that it's so convenient because I can buy spot bitcoin. I can long stuff and like I can borrow and lend and I honestly don't borrow or lend and all I want to do is like trade coins. I have some Solana in like Telegram bots. Majority is on Hyperlquid and spot BTC, spot soul, spot E. No, not Eve, spot hype. Um, I do like that. Um, obviously like I like Hyperlid

in general, but I agree with you like the EVM is very difficult. I almost like kind of feel bad that it's become so difficult. Do you guys ever like look at E and you're like what could have been like I love you. Yeah. I I literally had that thought like earlier this week on a run which unfortunately I wasn't using Steen for. Um, but yeah, I had that thought cuz it's like, think about how much it's just really kind of crazy to see how much usage Hyperlid has gotten. Um, in terms of, you know, it's like 70 plus% of like the entire Artum USD USDC supply is over

there. That's pretty crazy. Like there's very much desire and there's very much like large pools of capital that are willing to use EVM products. Uh, and that's just like happens to be like the first one that's really excited people in a long time. Uh, and it kind of but we don't really think of it of as like Ethereum per se. Like maybe that kind of changes a bit with like hyper EVM. Uh, but also like I haven't really seen a super ambitious technical road map around like Hyper EVM which like I think they should they should absolutely pursue because like they have all of the users clearly. uh why not just kind of like really you know shoot for the stars. I understand that like the core team is

very much focused on just like the per decks and like the club and all this sort all these other things, but you know if you have a chance to dethrone mainet like ETH mainet as like the like EVM finance hub, why not just go for the jugular and just like really try to do it because obviously everyone else is going to be trying to do that. like you have teams like Monad, you have teams like Mega ETH, uh kind of all those projects over there. So, I mean, it doesn't really matter to me necessarily if it's like Ethereum itself cuz like obviously we've seen like those trade-offs have to be made in terms of like if you really want like a ideologically driven chain, you're not going to be able to satisfy users the

same way Salana can or the same way that like Fogo can or any of these other like kind of high performance networks. But that is just kind of the reality. Yeah, I agree with you. I like that you did the G Fog go in there. Um, one thing I have to say to correct you is that from what I've seen now that there's one thing with Hyperlid that I think is like relatively difficult is that they are very private about everything. They're very private about the road map. They're very private about what they ship. But there are a few channels that you can look at. So they have an API announcements channel and a regular announcements channel. And when they do upgrades on testn net um they get posted on the announcements channel.

So like the last I don't know whatever like 10 updates um it's not usually spot listings or upgrades to the spot pro uh to the purpose protocol. It's typically like we've added read pre-ompiles to the hypervm. We've like doubled the gas the block size on the hyperbm. So I um I'm going to do like with all due respect I'm going to do some push back over here. I'm going to say I think they're mostly focused on the Hyper EVM now. Um, and I agree with you like if you have that chance, you just have such a fantastic product that is like clearly funneling users constantly. And to go from Hyper EVM to from the Hyper Core to the Hyper EVM is

like super Do you guys trade per on Binance and stuff or do you use Binance and stuff? We're both US citizens so that's illegal sir. Um, okay. Have you used Hyperloop? Yes. You just have to click a button to go from spot to EVM. It's very very simple. You like have to approve one transaction and it goes. It's fantastic. I think that the sh I think um so I think they're they're probably playing into it and they're going to make it work. I'm I'm very hopeful for that. I've moved my the entirety of my family's finances onto the Hyper EVM. Um I'm looking forward to it. Well, this is potentially a top as well because

it that was a pasta. Sometimes idiots come after me and say, "Oh, block post is the top." This I did it. Shut up. I want to I want to add something because I like what I like that you brought up Hyperliquid in response to my comments about ETH and Soul and other chains because I think it it's just kind of like showcasing what happened to the Ethereum network effect. like they they kind of broke it. They had a very strong network effect, right? Everyone was on EVM and then they're like act we can't do this anymore. Like do [ __ ] on the other chains and like just fracture it all up and make it annoying as [ __ ] hell.

And that completely ruined the experience for like you know if you got a bridge to base and arbitum and optimism and like this chain and that chain you're doing different things on all of them like you you don't want to swap on mainet but maybe you want to do lending on mainet that's where all the liquidity is but then arbitram has this app like it totally ruins the experience and you know teams like it's funny because they're you know they've not really done that well but like osmosis for example in the in the cosmos space they knew from the beginning that like they were doing this like multi-chain thing. And actually, their UX was pretty nice for that. Like you just go to Osmosis and if you have stuff on other chains, like click a button and it pulls it from there to here and it's there and

it's easy to trade. And like nobody ever really like got to that UX level with EVM apps. It's like I got to go to a bridge app and then I go to like the app that I actually want to touch and then like you know the swapping place. And there are some places where that's like a little more streamlined. Like you can do swaps like crosschain and that like handles a couple of those things, but it still just feels like it's so fragmented across these things that it's just it's painful to use relative to what it used to be. And so to go to something like Hyperlid where it's like I'm on the per thing, okay, now I'm on the EVM, it was one click, now I'm doing swaps on memecoins or whatever, or Salano where it's like it's all just on the chain.

Like I don't know. I I think it just it speaks to like how valuable like the simplicity of having it all in one place is like the network effect associated with that just like the UX product effect in terms of like a consumer using it. Um and Ethereum just kind of gave it up and that's unfortunate. Yeah, I would say I totally agree with all of it. I definitely think Osmosis had an advantage, right? cuz like Cosmos has canonical um uh interrupt with IBC and so like that's definitely a big plus. But yeah, I mean if you're if you know that that's going to be the endgame of like there's going to be funds on a bunch of different chains, it's nice to have one agreed

upon solution. Otherwise, I think you end up just trying having to play the BD game where, you know, you're maybe like powering your transfers using layer zero or wormhole, whatever it may be. Um, and like there's different trust assumptions with both of those, but if you just have like one standard that's across um the entire network, that's like a little bit easier for sure. But yeah, it would definitely be nice if that part of the UX just improved in general. Yeah, I I always thought Intense would fix it, but like nobody like no one's complaining about having to buy BTC on ETH or on base, but it's like buying [ __ ] and

then intents are mainly it's solvers which are just market makers and no one wants to hold dog [ __ ] Um is it risky for market maker stuff? Yeah, we'll see. The other option is just having one chain that dominates all the activity. Uh and then like you're not worried about interrupt cuz you're doing everything on one chain. And I think that's like still very much like a real reality that could exist. I mean also just for like individual users, not like ubiquitously across everyone. Um, but it's like, you know, what you were describing, Danny, of like just being able to go from like uh one click from hype spot per to EPM. Just like make it as like frictionless as possible. And

same thing goes with Salana. Same thing will go with Fogo. Same thing will go with Manad hopefully and all these other new chains that launch. Um, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think we've talked on this point like a billion times about, you know, if ETH could have named economical L2 and just been like put the traffic there. That's the one. And it would have sort of been like the inverse of the hyperlquid, right? Where you go from the everything EVM chain to like maybe then you have this L2 and it's like you put all the really I don't know maybe maybe it would have just been like swaps and stuff to start out of like [ __ ] and memecoins. um kind of the the reverse direction of like going from the hyperlquid purpose exchange and then bolting on the EVM afterwards. Um they

could have done the exact same thing, right? And it would have addressed all those problems, but you know, just the the I whatever it was, you know, the community was too large, couldn't agree on the most appropriate solution, then you just end up with okay, there's 10 L2s, so they're going to they're going to build their solution. And then obviously there's friction. Yeah, I think they thought that there would be like some social layer decision. Um, but that constantly like there's still so much TVL on and AR and I know TVL is typically like a meme because it's just dead capital that doesn't really exist.

But um, and then it's like they got they chose base afterwards like but still there's every time something new launches you go on it. It's just it's tough like they the social if you let people try and decide. Also, I feel like they have an issue with how many voices they have and how different each of them approaches it. Like sometimes I'll see a Vitalic tweet. Sometimes Justin Drake will say something and then some other Eve guy will say something and then Vitalic will just come in and say, "This is [ __ ] dog [ __ ] We're not doing this." or like something of well in the way that he says the words like I'm concerned about the practicalities of this or like we need to make sure it's World War II resistant or and and he he

still holds such a huge voice and then Justin Drake's like writing about store of value of Bitcoin being bad and that Ethereum is going to eat everything and then there's the whole foundation side I feel like there's nobody who was really like speaking on it um and on Salana I think everybody agreed there were a lot of voices Matt Raj Tuli and the industry is still so small that people look up to these like figures. Um, and they like those three as well as a bunch of other people, they just agreed on the same exact idea. I hate IVRL. Like I hate the the the motto, but I mean they all agreed on it and it [ __ ] worked out. Yeah. I mean, uh, cohesion is very powerful. also like

those guys that you just mentioned are all like we're all very much in the weeds from the Salana side. Um I do think like the I I think ETH kind of missed its chance to have like you know someone bearing the torch in terms of direction who was like a DeFi builder because that's still the obvious use case for Ethereum today is like there's more there's more of the stable coin supply over there than anywhere else albeit a lot of that is just on exchanges. Um but then you know there's tons of stable coins in Spark, tons of stable coins in um a there's lots of lending and borrowing activity taking place over there, but like I think they I mean there's there's like talks people say that like the foundation like really

did not like DeFi and they didn't like help them as much as they could and then I think Salon just kind of saw the approach that they were taking like that's all like you know find a north star and just march towards it And I think that's kind of exactly what you're saying, Bach. I unironically think, you know who would be good? Mark Zeller. Legit. Yeah, I I totally agree. Like I think Zeller is like been like one of the few voices in Ethereum that has like has had the courage to be disliked and like had the courage like not really give a [ __ ] what people say about him and to like just, you know, draw his line in the sand. Uh have a crash out publicly with with Gauntlet. Um, but it's like it's for a protocol like he

genuinely believes in that he genu like he's he's working to better a every single day. Like he's not just like talking to talk like some of the ETHs just like tweet nonsense about like ETH being money ETH having like a store of value and like they don't actually contribute to the ecosystem in any meaningful way in the way that Zeller does. Uh so like that's like a big difference I think that we really haven't seen with too many other builders. Um, and like he's, you know, he's not like the a dev or anything either. He's like literally like a community member who just like decided he cares about something and wanted to make a difference. Like realize he had very high agency and is making the most of it. Yeah, you definitely just need like someone strong willed and

incredibly opinionated. And I think you're right, Boach, that like too many too many cooks like in the kitchen, it it just you don't have that cohesive, strong, opinionated stance. it it it's like it becomes muddy and it's like too easy to change too often. And like when you're Salana and it's just like go faster, more throughput, less latency, it's like very clear what you're doing and ETH was never very clear. Yeah, I I will say, yeah, that's literally it. And A is doing fantastically as well. Like they're doing great. Um still surprisingly, even though like I was talking [ __ ] about them a few months ago, I hit I saw that They've like hit a massive benchmark recently. I can't

remember what it is to be honest for you guys. It's just like on lending and borrowing. Um yeah, I still think there's a shot for ETH. Like I'm curious you guys thoughts. I still think there's a shot for ETH. like they're clearly they still I in my opinion as like an on from the outside looking in like they still haven't really hammered away like what is this clear core opinionated stance that they're going to like drive forward because it's like you hear oh no we are going to expand blobs oh we actually are going to expand the L1 oh we actually look we're going to raise gas limits it's like I don't know I hear different like bits and pieces that are like more or less to the some of those different targets going into the future and it's like like what's the clear stance

Salana, it's very obvious to me. You know what I mean? Hyperlid, it's very obvious to me. What is it for ETH? My personal opinion on this is that I I think they should scale the L1, but but in my mind, what is probably going to happen is roll-ups. Um, whatever, like whoever is the more powerful one. It could be like a ZK rollup, it could be base rollups, whatever. Um, and I think Eve becomes primarily well, they try to position it. I don't I don't think any of this is going to work out, but I think increasingly we'll see them say, "It's too late. We have to do roll-ups."

Because one thing that I think a lot of people often like we say, "Why did we do roll-ups? You should have just scaled the L1." But a lot of these guys have huge stakes in some of these rollups. Um, like as advisor positions, as investors. Do you guys remember when that layer thing came out? Like imagine that before rollups? Like I imagine a lot of people in the Ethereum community who have a voice are invested in some of these ropes. And why shouldn't they be? Because they they believe that um this could be the next solution. Um and at the time that's what it looked like and I don't think that anybody can say that they like we now know that they were wrong but there was a point when Arbitum was doing all the transactions and we

were saying wow the L2s really worked out. roll-ups were like the right decision. Um, so I think there's a lot of money and time invested in it. I I don't think that they'll go back on it. I think they'll probably try and do a half and a half where it's like, okay, we're going to scale the L1. I don't know if it'll be meaningful. Every time they bring it up, someone starts a fight. It is so ridiculous. It's like, oh, like, what's the plan to take it down to 1 second? The block times from 12 to one. Um, and then Vitalic was like, I don't think we can get to six because of this, this, this, and it would like block this. Um, so it's like they're arguing about bringing it from 12 to one, but then they're like, oh, we actually need to first bring it to six. And then

nothing's happened. We've been talking about this for two years. I've personally remember my third podcast we were talking about. This is my third podcast episode on ZX3. We're still [ __ ] talking about it. In fact, like halfway through our Eve convo, I was like, "Guys, we got to [ __ ] shut this down because I cannot do this again." Um anyway, scaled L1 rollups probably try and position it as a sovereign ro uh sovereign store of value asset is I think what they will probably try and go with which I think will fail because Bitcoin is the store of value asset even though I know the meme about the 21 mil activities low economic security [ __ ] um the quantum hacks whatever you want to say it's like it was chosen. There is

a reason why it happened. Um, immaculate conception. Is that what it is? Um, so that's my like I guess my answer is that it'll go the exact same way and it'll be like they'll they'll be too distracted until the end. They'll do the L1, the L2s, and they'll try and be a money and it probably won't work out. Let's see. Unless someone like really strong comes in. Napoleon could fix this whole thing or Bismar. Yeah, to great way to round out that take. Um, totally agree. Totally agree that Napoleon could fix this. Um, no, it does kind of feel like like times a bit of like a flat circle there with

Ethereum there, right? Cuz like I felt like as it was really getting beaten down like over the past couple months and like people were like seriously contemplating like, wow, this might be it for ETH. Um, I feel like that's when things really start started to turn around. Um, and you know, they kind of like reorged the entire foundation and it was like, "Oh my gosh, we have all these plans. Everything's looking really good." And then we had like that like, you know, solid runup and we went right back to like, well, eat this money. You know, it's it's a sovereign store of value. It's like gold. It's World War II resistant. It's perfect. Uh, and you know, we kind of like it just we got

back to a point of delusion very quickly. Um, whereas like we were actually getting somewhere I felt like before. Yeah. It feels like ETH going down in price is probably the most productive thing for the network because it gets people like it lights the fire under their ass to be like, "Okay, we should ship some stuff right now." Dude, look at the EBTC chart. Like it's been down only. No one's been like, "We got to [ __ ] ship some stuff." It's just it's down. It's It's also so crazy because if you talk to I think every single both retail investor and liquid investor, they the idea in 22 23 was just buy ETH and it's going to go back to alltime

highs. It's just broken so many hearts including mine. Like I also bought ETH in 20. I don't think anybody like you can talk that I would say probably like 95% of people bought ETH at some point. Except for you didn't buy any E, Danny. No, not meaningfully. Okay. But yeah, you still bought some E because you were like this will at least be relevant. I'll need gas on the chain. You got to use the chains. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Versus now I feel like people are being onboarded with like orangey and whatnot. And I'm sure some of these people haven't even heard of Ethereium. Like they just have a phantom wallet, 0.5 soul, and a dream. They don't they don't care about L2 road maps, the shared sequencers.

Yeah. Like I think it's very it's not easy to convince people around like even Bitcoin being a digital sovereign store of value. Uh like just like anyone off the street, you know? If like you have someone who's like kind of already wellversed in like I don't know, finance of any sort. right? If they're a bit of a gold bug, if they're a bit of a government skeptic, if they're a bit of a skeptic in general, like you might have some sort of chance there. But then like just trying to describe what Ethereum is to someone itself is quite hard. And then also then trying to convince them that this is like a sovereign store of value uh over like all things on the internet and like this is the one that will really matter. Uh I mean that's if you can convince them,

fantastic. But if you can't, it's not entirely surprising as to why you can't. Yeah, it's gold and oil at the same time. You can't hold on if I can get it. I think you just I think he just crafted the perfect narrative. [ __ ] dude. They've had this for five years. Do you remember that three point free drive asset thing that they were like shilling for years on end? um don't trip the triple point asset. Yeah. Yeah. And it just I do think if you put the properties the price action properties of gold and oil together, you don't get the best looking chart. But

um I like where the head's at. I like the ideas around, you know, you need a Napoleon. Get a couple lions in the room. They won't have to worry about all the sheep and the rabbits and they'll just ship. And the small dogs, man. and the small dogs. They just need a couple lines. That's it. And just set them set them loose, man. All right. Very good. Uh this is Danny's way of saying, "Guys, we need to cut it." And we're going to cut it. Um you got to set these lines loose. All three of us. Let's Let's Let's do something else. Um Ian, do you have anything you want to say before I let you go? No. Just wish Teddy could be here, man. just missing him so much. Can't believe he clicked on

us like that. He's probably using Wolf Swap right now with like funk Napoleon remixes on one screen and Wolf Swap on the other. He would have been perfect for this, but I'm surprised he didn't want to come on. Um, it is a big weekend for him. Guys, if you're listening to this pod, please wish Theodore a nice day and a nice life. Um, I don't know if I should give too many details about what is happening. I don't know what he wants about his privacy. Ian, I'll let you take the risk if you want to, but yeah, it's his bachelor weekend. We're having a fun time. Very good. Very good. It's his bachelor weekend and Ian took an hour and a half talking about Wolf Swap on the bot. So, it's it's going crazy over there. Yeah,

it's getting pretty nuts. Remixes are only getting louder. They're going to be moving weird at the bachelor party and we'll be moving some kind of way at Permissionless next month. Let's go. June 24th through the 26th. Less than a month away. 0x10 10% off. Link in the description. Get your tickets. Meet us there. We will have a dunk tank. Bach is getting in the dunk tank. Yeah, there will be others in the dunk tank. The small dog goes in the dunk tank, man. Everybody hit the dunk tank. It's going to be a movie.

Um, 0x10 permissionless June 24th to 26, Brooklyn. I need to re-record an ad for that because I the last one we did, my producer hated it. Um, but yeah, Ian, thanks for coming on. Danny, thank you always for coming on. Um, great. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you guys. [Music]