Quadrillions: The Crypto Capital of the World | Acting Chairman Pham

Transcript

And I said, "Look, America is back. We want you to come and invest, hire, and build in America. We have regulatory clarity. Uh, yes, you can conduct these activities here in a regulated manner." And that's actually had such a huge impact. >> Quadrillions is a miniseries produced by Block Works and is sponsored by Canton Network. Nothing on this show is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. It's forformational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely their opinions, not financial advice or necessarily the views of Blockworks. Our hosts, guests, and the Blockworks team may hold positions in companies, funds or

projects discussed, including those related to Canton network. All right, everyone. Welcome back to Quadrillions. Very excited about this one. We have acting chairman of the CFTC, Caroline Fam, here to talk about CFTC regulations and the US. Let's get into it. >> Thank you. Thanks so much for having me here. >> Yeah. Yeah. Very excited about this one. Um, okay. Let's let's jump right into it. So, I was reading one of your quotes from I think it was back in January of this year. You said, uh, you kind of publicly declared it is time for the CFTC to get back to basics. I would love to just hear what you had in mind when you said that.

>> Yes, 100%. I'm so glad we're starting there because that really has been my mantrum ever since I came back to the CFTC for the fourth time as a commissioner. So, a lot of people have heard kind of my origin story, but I started off at the CFTC as an intern actually in the enforcement division when I was in law school. So, I have the benefit of honestly for the past 15 years, my whole career started and has been shaped by very much the CFTC and the markets that it oversees. So, I have this institutional knowledge. I know what the CFTC was like in the quote unquote old days. We actually celebrated our 50th anniversary as a commission this year, which was an amazing thing to do to celebrate for our staff and for, you know, all of our former chairman and

commissioners and the whole community that we have around the CFTC. And um generally speaking, I feel like your roots is really important. Like you really need to understand like where did you come from? you know, why are you here in order to know where you should be going and what your future should look like. So for me, the CFTC has always been about a mission that is to ensure that our markets are well functioning and that we're protecting market integrity and that we're preventing fraud, abuse, and manipulation. I mean, it's pretty straightforward. And you know, in order to really understand that in context, you of course have to understand what are the markets that the CFTC oversees.

So we oversee everything that is basically not a security. And we're talking about the intersection of the real economy and financial markets. So it's all asset classes. I mean yes, everybody talks about commodities which is like gold, silver, oil, you know, natural gas, lumber, grains, um pork bellies, frozen orange juice concentrate, right? So all of those you know a commodities the physical commodities but also we oversee the rates market the biggest market in the world we oversee FX markets we oversee credit markets we oversee um certain uh equity derivatives we oversee all the markets and so it's really um looking at this 700 trillion notional uh financial

market that we oversee that's global by design by nature that's something that means that we really need to be on top of our agame and we really have to get back to basics. That's why we have a principal based regulatory framework by the way because of the breath of the markets and the fact that there's always innovation happening. Um what does that mean like from a concrete perspective? So I was very focused on ending regulation by enforcement. Right? There had been this um period of time where I think we really lost that touchstone that I'm talking about. you know, making sure that we have markets that serve the economy by giving people a place to uh mitigate price risk by being able to do price discovery and being able to have price

dissemination. So that way people understand like, you know, how much is a bushel of corn, you know, how much is a barrel of oil, you know, how much is whatever of gold, um how do I price my 30-year IRS, right? All of these things uh people want to know from our markets. And instead of being focused on the well functioning markets piece of it, I think it became a little bit about how do we um get big headlines, you know, how do we kind of chase after the issue duour? Uh go after, you know, whoever we've declared are the bad guys, you know, do trophy hunting almost. And I feel like >> that's not what we should not that we

should not be doing that. That is not what the government is for. The government is not there to pick winners or losers. The government's not there to say this industry or this sector is a bad industry or a bad sector. We're here to make sure that the rules are clear, that the game is fair, that people are able to build, to grow, to use our markets for what is intended, you know, to really uh serve the economy, the commercial economy. >> If I can, Jason, I just want to I just want to chime in. I I I just uh cannot applaud enough um uh Commissioner Pam for what you just said. I think that a lot of times people ask me, are you excited about all the new rules that are coming um um you know to the space and I

say yeah I I am excited but actually what gets me more excited is the posture of the administration and the regulators because it is it is even things that were possible within the regulatory framework in previously people were scared to use the technology because it was the posture that was just talked about that was intimidating here. It's like, yeah, we think it's we're okay to do what we want to do, but we actually think we're going to get in trouble regardless.

>> So, it's actually the posture, the positive posture. We're here to innovate. We here to allow uh use of technology. That posture in my opinion is actually the biggest bolster of of this uh space in the last year is that both the administration and regulator like commissioner Pam have said no no no we want you to use this technology we encourage it and we're going to do it in a safe and sound manner. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Thank you so much you all because I think look it's not just operation chokepoint 2.0 right. It's not just that. It is the fact that there was what I've called before almost this allergic reaction to new technology. So, it's sort of like, oh, no, no, no. This is

new. Um, it must be bad. We have to be very skeptical. We have to kind of discourage people using this new technology. And I also think that's something unfortunately that got lost in this whole narrative in Washington was this idea that bad actors uh who commit fraud in the crypto space means that the blockchain technology is bad. Now that's just crazy to me. I'm sorry. Like a technology is not good or bad. It's just technology. People do good things and bad things. But people commit fraud all over the place no matter what.

Anything, right? you know, you go down to the street and um you know, somebody could be trying to mug somebody else. Uh people So, that's just where I feel like that got all mixed up together and really was just wrong. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the pace of innovation inside of the organization right now has just been Yeah. pretty remarkable. Maybe we can actually talk about um uh I'd love to get your take on there's a lot of conversations right now about how to divide responsibilities between uh the CF the CFTC and the SEC um especially you know we've got this comprehensive market structure framework that's coming uh and there's been a lot of talk about what is the you know I think the industry maybe thought the SEC was the most important then it was like

oh maybe the CFDC is more important for our industry or maybe they're both important. I'd love to hear how you think about dividing responsibilities here. are both important or both really important. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> I think um people have gotten kind of hung up on this part. I think hung up >> to a degree that's overthinking it to be honest. So, one of the other things about getting back to basics is it's actually also very much getting back to regular order. Right? The CFTC has existed in one form or another since the late 1920s or early 1930s. I think the SEC also similarly from the 1930s. and we've always engaged with one another in a

productive and responsible way um throughout the last you know almost 100 years and then especially once the CFTC came into its current iteration in 1975 as a commission actually modeled after the format of the SEC right so it's like a board of directors there's five commissioners one of the commissioners is the chairman I am the acting chairman right now um and also the whole commission but that's a different story. So the uh it's always been a very healthy and very respectful working relationship. Right. right back to, you know, I like to talk about like in the 1980s, you had um CFTC chairman Philick McBride Johnson, who actually was one of my law professors when I was at GW Law,

which was really cool to take regulation of judges from him. And then you had um SEC chairman John Shad, and they came together and they were like, well, we've got some of these new products and you know, it's sort of uh based on a security, but it is like a derivative and you know, we think, you know, where's where do we draw the lines here? um and they sat down and they hashed it out. And it's that spirit of just coming together and trying to find a practical solution, right? We don't have to overengineer it. We don't have to overthink it. Let's just come together and think about what's best for the market and what supports um responsible innovation. That is exactly the same spirit of cooperation and working together that uh SEC chairman Paul Atkins and I brought to the table when

we decided to do our joint roundt for the first time in 15 years. Not since DoddFrank had the SEC and the CFTC done a joint round table. And so that was on September 29th. It was a huge success. Um, it's just I think that's also the kind of positive constructive energy that we're bringing to the table in this administration about wanting to just tackle problems headon, coming up with pragmatic solutions and not getting so hung up on like red herrings or false flags that that people have kind of made into a boogeyman. Um, okay. What does that mean from like a practical perspective? Okay, there's a lot of different products

where um single stock futures is something that came up a lot during the round table. That was a product that sort of was kind of a failure to launch and honestly it was a lot of it was because of a turf war situation um and people trying to sort of protect their um maybe their regulatory moes possibly. I'm not sure. I don't I don't want to like over uh belabor it, but why not try again? like that's something that we want to come together and try again and see if that's something that we can make work this time if we don't focus so much on oh is it yours or is it mine but just let's look at the merits of the product let's look at the liquidity profile let's look at the economics like what's the best way so that's why I said at the

beginning of that round table we should be taking almost a blank piece of paper and thinking about what is the best most optimal market structure to foster liquidity formation and capital efficiency and once we know what good looks like then let's figure out how to get there from a regulatory perspective. So it's very outcomes focused and I just think that's the most productive way to do it. >> Can we get into the nitty-gritty of some of the the the work the work that you've been working on? I'd love to hear like the the yeah just the projects and the challenges that you've been trying to tackle and that you're trying to get done in the next couple of months or or even next year. Yeah.

>> Yeah. So um so I just told you what the endg game is, right? Like that's the end game. Let's come up with a market structure that provides the most liquidity formation, the most capital efficiency. And both of us have very robust and strong regulatory frameworks, right? I don't think anybody's looking at our securities exchanges and saying that those aren't like the you know uh best-in-class gold standard around the world for uh efficient capital markets, right? I mean our stock market is incredible here in the United States. Everybody wants to, you know, start their public companies here, get access to our public markets here. Um, also for the same uh similar reasons, the futures markets that the CFTC overseas are also

the gold standard and the bestin-class. And we set the prices for commodities all over the world. Um, and when I say commodities, again, I'm being very broad. everything from um 10-year treasuries, right, to yes, like barrels of oil and you know the price of gold uh in our futures markets. So, they both work. Uh they're both uh tried and true, time- tested. That's why we did a joint statement um between SEC Chairman Atkins and myself where we did this joint statement where we said yes, we're going to start to look at allowing um different kinds of assets to trade on, you know, futures exchanges and on uh securities exchanges because if we're trying to regulate crypto, right, we want to bring it inside the regulatory

perimeter, then let's do it. Let's put it on our futures exchanges. Let's put it on our securities exchanges. Let's apply our existing regulatory frameworks to that. So, how are we how are we getting there? So, um as you all know, the president's working group on digital asset markets issued a report. Um sometimes you call it the White House crypto report. It's really a roadmap for the administration about how we're going to uh tackle digital assets and provide regulatory clarity here in the United States. And that was issued at the end of July. So, the SEC announced their project crypto, which is how they're going to make America, the crypto cap of the world, enable uh tokenization, enable digital assets uh in their markets, and I launched the CFTC's crypto sprint. So, the CFDC's crypto sprint is a 12-month initiative. We will

be all done implementing the CFTC's recommendations from the president's working group report by August of next year. um it's fast, but I've been saying since um the last couple years, but I put out an op-ed in March where I said, "Yes, I think we can implement all of this in 12 to 18 months and like we're going to do it." So, the first phase of the CFC's crypto sprint was um a comment period, like a public consultation on listed spot crypto on our futures exchanges with leverage. So in our statute and it's been in there since DoddFrank so since 2010 it actually says that if you are doing a retail commodity transaction so let's say like you know retail Bitcoin swap Bitcoin

[snorts] um and there's leverage or margin or financing then it must be traded as if it was a futures meaning it needs to be traded on a futures exchange. So it's been there we've had this authority all of this time right for 15 years but nobody's ever said how people should do that. >> And actually, people have come to us to propose ways to list these products on futures exchanges since at least 2020, maybe even earlier than that. Um, but come to us and asked us to do that. And honestly, you know, the CFTC wasn't comfortable with it at the time. They weren't comfortable with it. They didn't approve it. They didn't allow it to go forward. Um, but I kind of wish that they had because I think you'd see America being at the forefront of uh

digital assets and crypto instead of playing catch-up right now. But at least, you know, it's never too late. I'm glad that we're doing it now. So, that's a very important part of the CFC's crypto sprint. We have the comments. Um, they're very helpful. People were very constructive with the comments. And so that's why I'm saying we're going to approve it and it's going to be um live listed spot crypto with leverage live on our futures exchanges by the end of the year. Uh the other um the next you know phase or part of the CFTC's crypto sprint was where I asked for uh comments on tokenized collateral including stable coins in CFTC markets.

So this builds upon this fantastic initiative that my global markets advisory committee which is a uh industry um and public advisory committee that's got experts from you know every aspect of the market whether it's the sell side the buy side service providers uh financial market infrastructures you've all thank you for your service on the global markets advisory committee we created a digital asset markets subcommittee and so key amongst the accomplishments of what I'll call the dams the digital asset market subcommittee is that they uh put out the first ever US digital asset taxonomy which was really uh a resource to help guide US policy makers to bridge you know what fits within the US legal and regulatory

framework and what's already been established overseas because you know look the rest of the world has been moving forward obviously Europe has um the markets and crypto assets um regulation there's been you know financial stability board uh principles there's um the international organization, securities commission's principles, other jurisdictions in Asia have come up with their you know regulatory regime. So this was really going to bridge it, right? This was going to help show how the United States could integrate because it's a global market. We can't you know just be on an island here by ourselves even though we are the biggest market. Um that was super important. The other really important um recommendation that the GMAC did was around tokenized non-cash collateral. So think about tokenized treasury money market funds. So there

was a set of um it was a principles based approach um really looking at standards. It set forth a number of different recommendations. So I announced um in September end of Sep yeah I towards the end of September I announced a tokenized collateral and stable coins initiative and I was happy to do that with some key partners from the industry. So um the firms that had participated in the CFTC's crypto CEO uh forum that I held back in February. So that included, you know, Circle and Ripple, Coinbase, uh, Crypto.com.

So, you know, these firms um are leading the way in, uh, some of the adoption of this technology. So, we also have an open comment period on that. We will and we ask people to look at the GMAC recommendation, provide feedback on that, but just generally speaking, provide more feedback on what they think they should look like. So, when as just as soon as we get out of shutdown, >> we're going to go and look at all of those comments. We're going to put that together and uh, create an advisory. So that way people can feel comfortable using tokenized collateral in our markets. Now I will um you know skip to the end of the book and tell you that our rules allow it, right? Like it's technology neutral. Our rules just say treasury money market funds are eligible collateral, right? It doesn't say that

it has to be on paper or it needs to be in a computer or it has to be, you know, on a blockchain. It's just technology neutral. So some of the principles that we're going to reinforce in our advisory are just that it should not matter what is the technology wrapper around the underlying asset. So that's a key um key aspect I think I've I've always said that I think the killer app for stable coins is collateral management when you think about the efficiencies and so I'm really proud and excited about that. Um then the next phase uh so that's all by the end of the year. Um, for next year I think that stable coins will probably be live as uh collateral in cleared markets like so for our clearing houses probably in the first or second quarter of next

year. And then the only remaining part of the crypto sprint is then to make all of the technical amendments to our rules that'll be necessary to enable the blockchain technology. So those are rules like um collateral eligibility, margin treatment, clearing, settlement, reporting and recordkeeping. I think we can do all of that with just one rule making to kind of edit all of about a half dozen rules. That's also out for comment right now. It's more technical. So, we're going to really need to, you know, get that information and then do something thoughtful. But we can do a proposed rule um uh first quarter of next year and then we can finalize that rule in second quarter and then boom the 12-month crypto sprint is done and we now have regulatory clarity uh at the

agency level for uh crypto and tokenized uh assets. >> Yeah, amazing. It is very cool to see how quickly you guys are moving. Yval, I would actually love to ask you. Um, you were kind of nodding your head around like tokenized collateral, collateral on chain, like why is this something that you think is so important? >> Um, I [clears throat] think I I share a lot of times this stat uh that I don't think people appreciate. Only about 15% of eligible collateral ends up being used. And it's not because people don't want to use more collateral. because moving collateral in an efficient and cheap to deliver is not very possible today. And I think that that's really one of the biggest opportunities with

this technology. So um I I I do believe that collateral management whether it's into clearing houses but even just as you think about uh global banks thinking about how to manage their balance sheet more efficiently is probably one of the biggest lowhanging fruits uh opportunities out there today. Um, I [clears throat] think that the fact that you are able to deliver collateral, I think people should not be mistaken that every collateral will have the same risk parameters. And this is really what I like about the the DAM's working group is that you're creating a framework to say, yeah, you can deliver tokenized collateral, but again, we need to make sure that we create frameworks and

standards of people figuring out how to price that collateral. So for example today when you're a clearing house you'll say well if you deliver me cash I'll give you a 100% benefit because cash is king right and then after that I think it's like treasuries are like the the next best thing but already there you're getting a haircut on your collateral and then you go into like indices and even single names could technically be speaking given as collateral but again they start to get less less and less treatment and I think that one of the things that have been great in these working groups is really starting to think about how should we think about the risk of collateral. So I would say stable coins are a huge step forward. I think it's a huge opportunity

but again it doesn't mean that all stable coins are created equally and understanding the frameworks understanding where the deposits are being held are they all being held in treasuries are they being held as uh deposits I mean all of those things are things that you know what commissioner Pam have done is really trying to say we're going to enable tokenized collateral but we also need to understand like how do we look at it right because again they're not all going to be created equally and we need to educate the market. So I just think first of all as an opportunity set it's one of the biggest. I think that there are still a lot of tools instruments like working with [clears throat] rating agencies thinking about how do we rate collateral from a quality perspective

understanding what is the liquidity because if you're a clearing house clearly if you need to put your hands on the collateral and liquidate it you need to make sure that you could actually do that. So all of those things are things that will have to happen. But again, having a regulator that is saying like it should happen, we encourage it to happen and let's do it in a safe and sound manner is is kind of like in my opinion the most the most important thing. And now you're going to see all the innovation around how to make it possible and safe. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and I can't emphasize like how everything you all was talking about is so true, but it's also something that we know is true. I mean we are talking about institutional wholesale markets.

People have been uh looking at collateral and what is eligible collateral and what is good collateral and how do you manage the risk of collateral and so just because it's a new technology doesn't mean that we forget all of the lessons that we've learned and all of the standards that we have around this. And in some in some cases it may be just as simple as doing a look through to the underlying collateral. So, if you have literally a Treasury money market fund and it's registered with the SEC, it just happens to be tokenized. Maybe you just look through and you're like, "Yep, that's a Treasury money market fund, right?" And it doesn't matter the technology that's enabling it. H um chairman F I' I' I'd love to get your take on just making crypto uh America kind of the crypto capital of the world for I think you know you've

you've all and I have been building in the industry for a while and it feels like every couple years the industry goes back and forth between you know it's all in on China and then China shuts down Bitcoin mining goes to the states then SEC cracks down on it then it goes overseas then it comes back and how do you think about like making it so that that does not happen again that America is the crypto capital of the world. >> I love this question because I worked at one of the biggest global banks in the world. So, I know exactly what it's like to have to thread that needle between your legal entity strategy, you know, what are your permissible activities?

Uh, where do you want to find the talent? Where do you want to set up your, you know, uh, key hubs, that kind of thing. So, I feel like I actually am fairly uniquely qualified to answer this question and figure out how to do it. So I'll tell you how the how the CFTC is making sure that America is the crypto capital of the world, right? So number one, we cannot understate the chilling effect of like you've all said the regulatory posture of the last several years, right? If all of your regulators are publicly even if privately they are okay with the technology and obviously examining it and understanding that people are um um you know utilizing blockchain technology in a safe and sound manner which the credential uh

bank supervisors were doing. But if [snorts] publicly you're saying that crypto or blockchain is bad then yeah people doing things that are illegal is very bad for business. Going to jail is terrible for business right? Having an investigation that goes on for three or four years is horrible for your business. What's going to happen to your investors? Right? Look at your cap table. So, I just feel like this is such a basic thing, but everybody was businesses and companies want to do the right thing because that's good for business and it's good for their customers, it's good for their employees, it's good for their management. It's just people want to do the right thing generally speaking. All right. So changing that narrative, changing the overall tone from the top, um getting that messaging. I think the

executive order from day one was super powerful from the president and then obviously the um president's working group, passing the Genius Act, huge. Working on market structure legislation, huge. And then what we're doing at the um agency level. Uh, one of the things I've done to really make sure that we change the tone in the narrative is I actually went on a road show like the greatest road show on earth which is selling America pitching America. So I went to money 2020 in Middle East and I went to Korea blockchain week and then I went to um Paris as well and I said look America is back. We want you to come and invest, hire and build in America. We have regulatory clarity. uh yes, you can conduct these activities here in a

regulated manner. And that's actually had such a huge impact. I've had a lot of different crypto companies come up to me and say, you know what, we were thinking about expanding in Singapore. We were thinking about trying to hire more in Paris, but you know what, now we're going to come to New York because the talent is in New York. Um we see that the regulators in the US are are prepared to move very quickly. Actually, I think people are not I think people are having actually a hard time processing just how fast the SEC and the CFTC are moving and how much it's a complete 180 from what was going on before because also I've been thinking about how to do this since 2013. Many people in the industry have been thinking about how to do this since 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018. So, everyone's

like ready to go. We just needed to flip the switch and say yes, this is legal and you can do it in this way. [snorts] All right. So, getting the word out huge. Um there's a couple other things. One of the things that I think is really important but hasn't gotten enough airtime is um what I consider to be like two key lessons from DoddFrank. Right? So I worked on the DoddFrank uh rulemakings at the CFTC. I then went to city and worked on implementing DoddFrank. DoddFrank is the most consequential piece of market structure legislation uh that we've had in the United States. Um and and so there's a lot of lessons learned as we work on um you know coming up with this new regulatory approach for digital assets.

So number one regulatory modes right DoddFrank created these massive regulatory modes which made it very difficult it created consolidation and concentration in the sector it also made it really difficult for um new entrance uh startups entrepreneurs to uh get going um it was just cost prohibitive because of the registration compliance reporting and other capital requirements all of that just completely um non non-economic uh not commercial uh the second thing is market fragmentation So uh by not thinking about having a harmonized crossber framework it really fractured pools of liquidity it created essentially a US pool of liquidity and a non-use pool of liquidity and that was detrimental for you know efficiency

pricing uh capital management risk management all of that was really a very unfortunate um consequence of this United States the CFTC's initial approach to DoddFrank implementation so for the last 15 the CFTC has been trying to fix the crossber framework for uh for swaps for DoddFrank. Um I have done a ton of that. It's actually taken up a lot of my time at the CFTC so far. Um so I've done a couple things. Number one, I've told everybody that we should be using our existing registration categories which already have passporting and mutual recognition for non US um uh entities to come and uh get registered in our market. So for

example, a lot of US companies went and set up uh non- US affiliates like let's say in the EU. So now I'm saying if you are a uh regulated market under um MIFID in the EU, you can apply to be a foreign board of trade, an Fbot with the CFTC, it's a much faster path to get recognized and begin legally operating and offering direct access to US participants to your um exchange or foreign exchange. And you don't have to stand up and separately capitalize a US legal entity. So, that's a really key aspect of trying to um make sure that these are global markets and that we have they're frictionless as much as possible and that we have these deep pools of liquidity and we don't have market fragmentation. I'm also working

on trying to see if there's a way that I can do recognition for these uh crypto asset service providers like crypto spot exchanges like under Mika for example. Is there a way that I can provide recognition of those using my Fbot framework? Um [snorts] that's another key aspect too. Yeah, if I can just if I can just add real quick there, you know, maybe a more a more a more simple and and and answer is with everything that Commissioner Pam just said, I think the way we don't go back because that was part of your question is we just need to put real on chain. you know, we actually need to drive real businesses and and the reality is that um you know, with whomever will come back and try to

change, right? It's almost like saying like ride sharing or or or like things like Uber andyft can now not be legal anymore. There there is no putting the genie in the bottle anymore or or Airbnb, right? As much as people will want. And I think that the the the important task for us and I think it's it's critical for our industry to achieve is actually take these regulated markets and put them on chain and show all of these benefits because once you do that there's just no going back.

>> So we have this like really like unique opportunity in time to actually make it happen and then I just I just don't see how it comes back. And and I and I will say that once you do it in the US, it also becomes a platform how to do it elsewhere. And I think that we saw that in the previous administration. Every time you would go abroad and go, well, you know what's going on in the US, you guys are behind and now everybody's trying to catch up to what is being done in the US. So I also think that generally speaking, US markets just as a result of the size and what Commissioner Pam said early on, it's effectively kind of like the model which everybody follows will become kind of like a lighthouse uh tower, right? To actually

show how this gets exported uh abroad. >> Yeah, 100%. >> Yeah. And I'll give you two I'll give you two examples of uh commercial use cases that exactly proves you's point, right? Um because I've literally said we have to uberize crypto because anybody can come along and ignore the laws and the rules on the books. That's what happened in the last administration. We already had laws and rules that prohibited the regulation by enforcement, but they just decided to ignore it. So even if we get the market structure legislation, somebody else in the future can just ignore it. Like then where does that put us? You have to uberize it. You have to massively scale it. You have to have adoption so that you can't take it away. It's politically untenable. So that means in the institutional use case, I think repo is a great example. I think looking at sort

of digital um securities issuance like whether it's digital bond issuance or something else is a great example and in the retail use case um again when you are able to trade um the crypto on uh a securities exchange or futures exchange that is going to be something you just can't you can't take away if you have Bitcoin in your brokerage account like you're not going to take that away from people >> I mean we we are already today I don't think a lot of people know we are already today getting close to doing 10% of the US repo market on chain. So we do about uh one of our partners is doing $400 billion of repo every day and already showing the value of the technology. So I just don't think that there's there's going back from that.

>> Yeah, I think that's a good place to wrap. That's an exciting note. Chairman fam, uh first off, thank thank you for the joining the podcast. It was great great chatting with you, but also just thank you and congrats on everything over the last, you know, many many years of the work that you've been doing. And yeah, you all congrats again on all the work you guys are doing. >> Yeah, and and maybe just to take this opportunity, we should congrat congratulate and thank Commissioner Pam for uh coming to an end soon on her tenure and uh good luck with a new with a new journey. >> Yeah, indeed.

>> Thank you. Thanks so much. I can't wait to build >> indeed.