Proving in SIM cards - Marcus H.

Transcript

instead of waiting for a response um yeah I assume everybody's pretty like fairly technical but uh if there is a question that you have when I'm going through any of these slides um yeah please feel free to speak up um yeah there's a bit to cover here uh so yeah please like if it's on your mind I can pause and we can talk about it real quick um all right so let's dive into it so yeah how do you build a harbor wallet inside of a SIM card um first uh it's probably a good idea to go over like yeah what what we mean by a hardware wallet and what that sort of landscape looks like um so yeah I mean let's talk about the

landscape here so I'm talking about a hard wallet I'm talking about something that has the secure elements uh secure elements is usually uh you know an acigon chip that holds your public private key pair handle signing operations things like this but as we're going to see and explore just a little bit here um the secure element space which is mainly made up of these things called Java cards that have been around forever um yeah they actually are like general purpose uh embedded uh computers right so like not only do they do crypto operations uh you can do yeah like general computing um these bad boys have been around

forever uh there are literally billions um that are produced annually across things like you know your everyday life um every bank card you have is a Java card every SIM card you have is a Java card and uh if we're tying into you know something of crypto there are many Hardware wallets that leverage uh Java card secure elements so yeah like status key card is a great example grid plus same technology Ledger embedded along with another uh processor that they have is a secure element that's based around Java card and yeah like ubiky is a Java card too so this is pretty synonymous in the space for yeah a platform that

handles secure element stuff um yeah more or less so so let's see next slide um yeah tldr again Java cards are yeah they're secure elements uh they fit into a credit card form factor um they you know have some limited resources as far as embedded stuff goes um they run a limited Java virtual machine inside of this really small embedded platform um which you know gives you gives you some guarantees like it's not bare metal C or C plus plus where you have all these foot guns around like well maybe maybe I just write my own crypto and see um Java card kind of tries to alleviate

that the platform has been around since 1999 so like almost think of it as like you know rust rust early thousands right it gives you some guarantees not as many foot guns um yeah and of course Jabba was hot uh big Ram your little Ram but you also get uh depending on your Java card uh different crypto accelerators that are yeah certified uh EA eal certified which is like yeah basically the uh the certification for secure elements um but yeah so these things do DSA elliptical um sorry I should say des and I put Des

there they do Des you know ecdsa elliptic curved hippie home and stuff the latest version is going to do uh EDSA so like Edwards curve stuff and uh yeah we've been experimenting around with a bit more uh we'll talk about that at the end here um so kind of this is just a real quick overview of like the opportunity here right so like Java cards are everywhere they're in your sim card they're in your bank card they're also in your Ledger and your grid plus so why not just yeah look at the intersection here and see what we can come up with so um the goals here of e-sim and how this relates to uh privacy scaling exploration part of the ethereum

foundation is yeah scaling so we want to be able to you know onboard Target this 100 million ethereans right we want to give them a hardware wallet that's got a super low barrier to entry but it's still like you know like still super cheap uh usable on Hardware that they have already like their phones uh you know many thermal countries don't even like citizens don't even have like laptops they have a phone though we want to give them the ability to do this air gapped we want to be able to do this without an app store which is kind of a crazy idea but we got there and yeah we want this to be cheap right so you can get the same security you get in The Ledger and a SIM card as a hardware

wallet for a couple bucks um so that's really kind of the lowest common denominator factors that we're looking at when we talk about the scaling side of privacy scaling and we'll talk a bit more about privacy and some things that we're working on implementing so yeah again um we're putting a hardware while in the SIM card um our SIM card is it's a generic Java car we talked about this platform a couple slides back um I'm not going to really like Focus too much on how a hardware wallet works because yeah everybody's kind of familiar with them they kind of no yeah what you get with the hardware while it's

um you know all the implications there um so I want to talk a little bit about yeah like what is a SIM card because that's kind of building a lot of mystery a lot of proprietaryness from like telecoms and stuff like this so yeah tldr um a SIM card is just a generic Java card that has an applet on it that's written in this kind of funky version of java um and a SIM card yeah it's just a Java card with an applet um that applet generally has things like a small file system on it for configuration right like your sim card needs to tell your phone

and the network operator how to like communicate some parameters around this um and also kind of the reason that uh I guess the crypto element of SIM cards come in is for like authentication so your sim card actually mutually authenticates you to your network provider like your T-Mobile or at T or whatever provider you have it does mutual authentication but it does it with like with the pre-shared AES key but it it's stored in a secure element in your sim card um and so that's that's basically yeah how your phone is working right now um it's a Java card it's using a small

secure elements and it's basically zoring um yeah a challenge with your your static AES key that your provider burns into the card um this isn't really the best way to do things we'll talk about that a bit more too um but yeah the key takeaway is this thing isn't just like a static SD card that you're putting in your phone it's a full-featured not full featured but it's a small computer not just you know um the memory chip like a lot of people kind of assume your sim card is um so cool yeah it does Telecom stuff which is awesome uh talked a little bit about how it does off with your Telecom

but the thing that we're most interested in and what this kind of all is revolving around here is that your sim card actually also has as its own app platform um that free dates app stores and uh um yeah this is basically how Raiders before even after uh this whole um sort of yeah this this this part of

the SIM card is called SIM Toolkit um yeah it's been around since the early 2000s like if you ever bought like a ringtone on your flip phone or you know um yeah like you know maybe bought some more minutes or bought more text messages or something when that was a thing through some menus in your phone there's a good chance that you use this um so sim toolkit's a universal standard that's baked into every phone it's not on the App Store but it's uh it's basically the ability to communicate with the SIM card um you know that will like display menus information text

um all the good juicy stuff um and like I said it's been around freaking friends been around for decades now it's in every phone pretty much like even feature phones uh even phones that don't run Android or IRS or iOS have this um and it's pervasive it's pervaded all the way into yeah like 5G telephony which we have now um the cool thing here uh I guess they're the interesting pieces since all this stuff was just like thought about in like the early 2000s um your phone really has no way to distinguish whether an application like it it you can't get locked out of this

ecosystem because your phone has no way to distinguish whether the app on your sim card is coming from the carrier or not so this is huge because this lets us basically pop in a SIM card um put a put an applet on the SIM card and then immediately your phone whether it's iOS or Android without downloading any apps will pop up an icon and let you start using this Hardware wallet interface um so again yeah that's why we're getting back to the lowest common denominator that's why we're getting back to like yeah I will want to just if put in my closet eight years ago I

there's never the Internet it's always been air gapped things like that kind of the core premise uh and why yeah why we're doing this so um [Music] called Etsy etsi as well as cellular telephony standards around the world LTE 5G um and all the interoperability characteristics between you know all the different networks and stuff it's very standardized

um it's documented um but the documentation is definitely obtuse is definitely obscure and um a lot of times you're talking about yeah just just like a bite or so can be off um well and I should also mention I guess the key Point here is that while all this stuff is standard and while I can look at the 900 page standardization document and get some info about how this works a lot of it's undocumented and none of it none of the implementations of this standard have ever been open source so like yeah pretty much

um the only people that have implemented like they pay millions of dollars like you know the only possible way to even get this information uh without doing what what I did is to yeah sign an NDA or have 100 million dollars and be your own Telecom so none of those are viable so what do we do when we see a proprietary implementation for the standard of course we make our own implementation and make it free and open source so how do you do this it's just a quick bit um so yeah uh consult the manual and also

um use this amazing device by a company that's working on open sourcing parts of the cellular stack called osmocom but basically I put a SIM card or I put a sniffer in between uh the phone and the SIM card to look at exactly how they talk to each other exactly how menus are created and then reverse engineered that on a bite level so yeah basically um just use this device to intercept all the communications between a phone and a SIM card popped that through Wireshark and then use that information to make but my own implementation of SIM Toolkit which is this thing that gives you

manage um and a ux on pretty much any phone um and then yeah of course the also the hardware wallet side so um yeah I'm going to give a quick demo uh if that's possible um let me just try and set up the screen share here if you guys will hold on for a quick second um yeah I think yeah we wait for your demo Marcus I think we missed couple of your audio I feel I missed the the value thing you you saying about that anyway we will ask question later thank you okay what may have been missed

over the slide I can go back we'll go back uh the previous one I don't know how so everyone did it is it just me missing some audios um I missed it too but I think it was just um wait until the end yeah yeah yeah sorry about that Marcus no worries no worries um cool so we're just gonna do a try and do a quick demo here so I'm gonna have to share some other things one quick second everybody [Music]

okay so for this demo for you guys um behind the scenes here uh if I need to screenshot this stuff um stuff that stream and start a new one okay so the screen that I'm about to show you guys is uh is yeah basically just being mirrored can you guys see this it's like a phone screen yep yes okay amazing so this is a live pixel 4 just straight out of the box that I have here sitting on the table with me um it's just being mirrored

USB so you guys can see um but you'll see uh this guy like no SIM card in it or anything right now um it is is yeah just kind of hanging um so um actually you know what let me back up one step and let's let's do this air gapped piece first so um okay yeah basically for demo purposes and stuff um we're going to use like a companion app to generate a hash and then we'll use the e-sim to just kind of blind sign that hash for us

um so let me open up this small companion app um please excuse some of the ux it totally could be better um do you guys see a small like companion app in the browser right now yeah okay um right on so yeah this would basically be like uh similar to a ledger I meant so I don't know I want to send .0123 [Music] um two yeah whatever this default address is so what would happen is I can just cut

copy this like this from the companion app and then I can go over to my phone let me screen share that again and right so I've copied this can you guys see the phone again yep hello yes yes cool cool cool right so I'm back in my phone like I have this blind signature hash for example that I want to sign uh with my new sim Hardware wallet uh I'm in the phone so then I'm gonna go ahead and pop

in the SIM card into my phone um the SIM card Hardware wallet as it were um and I'll pop this up because you're gonna see something super interesting happen and this is again default app box this is a virgin pixel 4. this will work on iOS this should work on every Android device but pay attention to the icons that pop up in the app menu here um so did anybody see another little icon pop up here way down the bottom right behind right now right in between settings and YouTube uh just by inserting a SIM card a new application has appeared this

application says SIM Toolkit I think we should click on it um so right we click on this and we get the application that's running inside the secure element inside of our Sim and this is called esim wallet so this is cool um please excuse some of these other menu entries here doing a little debugging and stuff but I'm going straight to Blind Side and I'm going to paste in our hash from earlier and remove that 0x and it trailed off at E6 so this is actually E6 cool so I put in this hash like I'm gonna do a blind

signature go ahead I click ok looks like it was successful so then now um yeah I can actually just copy the signature out so it's been signed this is a signature for the private key that's in the card the private key is just dead for you repeating but this is the RNs values so I would copy this these are the important RNs values uh that you know the X and Y points of the signature cool wonderful I've signed a transaction uh with my e-sim wallet and so this is still air gapped so why don't I just pop back over to the companion app

and yeah paste in my signature and then have the companion app um yeah send it off the chain so that's what would happen uh this would be my signature it actually needs a v value so there's a couple rough edges in this app um but I would paste this in the companion app already knows about the rlp coded transaction uh it knows the hash from that this is the magic that makes the whole thing work is the signature noted submit transaction and off my transaction would go to the blockchain air gap wallet inside of a secure element inside of your sim card so yeah that's the uh that's the small

demo there um let me switch back to the presentation and right so cool um so the interesting thing to note about all this is yeah added where uh SIM Toolkit platform was paid and while there are advancements and new features added uh you'll see a gradient of support on different phones for more

advanced features um generally if your phone has a screen that can support it even a feature phone um there is a way to Output a QR code in through those menus that I showed you guys um instead of like copying the Sig back right so a QR code is a great ux Improvement um we need to sniff that from an app that does some QR code stuff and a special Sim so that piece is a bit of a work in progress and remember at the beginning of the talk I talked a bit about um yeah the P part of PSC we talked about the S we now have a hardware

wallet that runs inside of a super cheap SIM card that you can put in pretty much any phone um regardless you don't need an app store you don't need to have ever put the phone on the internet um the Privacy call back here um is about some some research and development that we've been doing um yeah to basically do zero knowledge proving systems inside of the Java card and of course uh you know Java card encompasses SIM cards so yeah zero knowledge proving inside of SIM cards so um yeah there's some really new awesome Tech or some awesome systems that are

being built out um so one of those is plume um plume is uh basically like a nullifier signature that you can create um but you can do it in an interest it's interesting because you can do it over the default ethereum curve um sccp 256k1 this is interesting because a lot of these secure elements um generally you like it's it's Hit or Miss but there's definitely supported curves and there's definitely unsupported curves and there's definitely something a bit more interesting

um but yeah so like basically you can do these nullifier signatures just like you would in semaphore protocol but over the default ethereum curve um but as I just alluded to uh there is there are some cards that support uh defining your own custom curves right so the crypto accelerator inside of your sim card inside of your Java card doesn't necessarily uh it just needs to be within a certain field uh you know certain number of bits and um yeah you can basically go and Define your own curve as long as it's in wire

straws format um and the job called generate signatures uh and you can do things like you know Point multiplication so I worked really hard with vivec uh a couple weeks ago and it looks like I don't want to jinx it but it looks like we have at least preliminary support to do uh baby job job slash alt dn128 inside of your elements inside of java card so that's huge because that's a pairing friendly curve that's not the default ethereum curve we can do all types of really cool magical stuff with that so that's what I'm super super excited for the future of this product

and what project um yeah moving that into the ZK space um so yeah uh let's see here so yeah I want to talk about a bit of the bigger picture so we have this crazy new primitive of like Hardware wallet inside of a SIM card so what could we do with that outside of ethereum transactions signing things like you do on a ledger things like this so um this is a bit of a pitch but yeah um

the bigger picture here is building an entire D pin that stands for decentralized physical infrastructure Network out on ethereum out on evm there's some other projects in the space on on different chains that they're doing trying to do similar things um but ours is as a as a centralized as you can get because we're doing everything on chain we're left we're going to let we are leveraging the public private key pair that's inside of this secure element Sim and to authenticate you with a decentralized network of radio hosts so basically what we're doing is you

know we're incentivizing people to put up cellular radios um that's cellular radio is inside out of a dow like a provider dial your sim card uh the public key of it or an auxiliary public key I have this SIM card in your phone what happens is it tries to look for a network is it eventually will find someone that has set up a radio to provide you access and it will authenticate with your public private key pair that's hosted on chain inside of a dial uh and it'll actually do a lifted curve

diffie-hillman over the air um to authenticate you and then you can start doing all types of things like microtransactions for service etc etc etc um so really excited about that because that's actually solves yeah like what is kind of a security problem in normal cell phone back ends as well as solving for the centralization problem um like I kind of alluded to earlier like right now inside your sim card inside of your cell phone there is a static AES key which is mirrored in your telecoms database so when you go to authenticate what happened

uh is there's this like a simple challenge response mutually um but that key in the database not key in your sim never change uh when you go roaming your operator shares that exact same key with other networks so like if you go roaming from America to Colombia now a Colombian Telco has your yeah the key that proves that you're you um not a really good way to prove it and it also opens you up to all types of attacks like Sim swapping and stuff like that so yeah super excited to be building this technology in there in a way that actually improves the security I think we can all agree that elliptic curve 50 Hillman is better than a pre-shared AES key

um and decentralizing yeah this Telecom oligopolies that exists worldwide um needs to happen um so that's the bigger picture uh um and yeah here are some links if anybody is interested um so the first one is the Java card um yeah all the Java card code to basically make your own Hardware wallet uh SIM card you can bring your own Java card they're available online cost a couple bucks you can make your own um in the future we might consider a small East or something like this but

this is very similar to like you know grid plus cards or status T card if anybody's familiar with that but you get an actual full-fledged ux by using any phone um there's some docs about semaphore Network which is the d-pin project that we're working on um it's a little nerdy about radios and stuff in there and then yeah Wikipedia link to give a little Lowdown about Java card and that last link is the Etsy SIM Toolkit specification that all telecoms use um yeah so that kind of rounds up uh where I'm at

um how about we open the floor for questions comments concerns complaints foreign thank you that was really super interesting I think um I'll I'll start with some questions and if anybody wants they can ask in the chat or um request to speak um well the main ones I had was like first what what does this look like on like um like an old phone like a brick phone like a Nokia or something um yeah and the other the other thing is um would somebody have to get like a pre-programmed card from like let's say they they were just

uh they didn't know how to code or anything from somebody else like some kind of trusted provider is that how it would work or yeah so let's uh let's address the first question about junakia brick um so basically um like it depends on the specs of the phone if we're talking about like a really old phone like Pinocchio with the antenna that pops out this probably isn't gonna work but I'll say so SIM Toolkit was standardized in 2002 so you can expect pretty much any phone past 2002 to work with this um the year 2002.

um again it depends a little bit like if the phone doesn't have a screen that's like I don't know some minimum resolution probably like 320 by by 480 or 128 by 128 or something like the menus won't display um so you get a couple of edge cases but generally yeah I mean this is targeted to even work in feature phones so like this 100 work was 100 would work in your old Motorola Razor this 100 would work in your old like LG Chocolate right um phones that that really never even had data connections right uh so that answered there will be some edge cases but yeah again anything from like 2002 on is is pretty much fair game

um the second part of your question yeah how do I get how do I procure one um so a hundred one percent this is open source Java card code uh you are more than welcome to highlight yourself and bring your own Java card SIM cards um which are pretty cheap like I said a couple bucks a pop you can bring your own uh and you can basically it's not technically the right term but you can basically burn your own Hardware wallet um basically there's an installer file called a cap file that's generated when you compile the code I could also just release that into GitHub and you could

just flash your cards um we are considering um doing something in like the like in a public goods way for this um so I have some connections with some other projects in the space that Source Java cards for their for their projects um I guess the key here to understand is like these cards get drastically cheaper when you order in bulk and I'm talking like tens of thousands um so anyway I have some connections with arcs research uh and other people that use Java card in the space and we're we're hoping we can get maybe a

couple thousand to start out here um would love to put up like a small little e-store where you know maybe we sell it for you know 3x the cost of what it is in bulk and then we make sure someone gets one for free um I think there's some model there that'll work but also I mean it's if anybody that is wants to run an e-store wants to run a hardware wall um if anybody wants to consider these I used to talking about that and making it work the distribution of this will be key yeah maybe we could just get stacks of these go around to conferences and stuff

and um yeah hand them out why not uh or or sell them and maybe donate it to public goods um so hopefully that answers your question um I should also say uh uh well I don't know if I should say but there are some other projects that we're working on uh inside of EF that are going to like Leverage um these to do uh so basically the pitch is prove Degrees of Separation on chain uh through a zero knowledge proof using one of these Java cards

um but not necessarily as a SIM card so it'll be like a contactless card like your credit card but what we're able to do is like yeah basically you can say you're three degrees away from uh the Hackensack organizer you can prove that with a zero knowledge proof and like that could be your entry into the event you don't never have to dox yourself or what transactions your account has made but but we can prove that you know your n degrees away from from someone so that's pretty cool there's also a huge identity aspect there um yeah like what if you could just prove that you're Human by generating all these aggregated zero knowledge

first just by being in contact with people tapping them they tap you uh and you can create like a social graph to prove that you're human um I like that um more than scanning my eyeball um so I think there's definitely a lot of yeah sorry I kind of want to change it there but I definitely there's a lot of room there and I hope I answered your questions yeah I did thank you there's some questions in the chat um I'll just read them off uh Josh yes can this work as a functional Sim with network access as well as a hardware wallet simultaneously absolutely it can um and that's part of the bigger picture

here right so like I said the SIM card uh like it has this whole feature set for making menus and doing the SIM Toolkit thing but it also has this feature set for like uh yeah basically how the network works how the Telecom network works and like how you're authenticated so 100 the SIM card that I just showed you it authenticates with my with my radios as well as gives me a hardware Wallet app right actually I can real quick show you um like I don't have a radio with me because I'm actually at Burning Man right now um but uh let's see so

right like this is the same SIM card that was in there earlier right you see the SIM Toolkit down here in between YouTube and YouTube music um but if I go into like the settings here and I take a look at my carrier you'll see this the mobile network is called semaphore so yeah 100 this will serve as basically as authenticating you into the decentralized network and also giving you Hardware wallet capabilities um yeah ideally it would be really cool to get this down to a price where it's I saw the next question was like how much are these so you're looking at about five to ten dollars if you just want to buy one um but when you buy in bulk they get

down to just a few bucks even south of a dollar if you buy enough so what would really be cool is to get enough of these and and almost use it as a loss leader uh sort of like back in the day when you got on America Online when you got on AOL you went to the supermarket you picked up a floppy disk through CD-ROM you went home and you got 63 minutes uh and you got a bunch of applications as well of course that's CD-ROM or that floppy disk costs a couple bucks that's the loss leader if we could onboard people with this in that way I think a huge potential um so yeah and um what do you think of doing a test

run at something like ethereum Mexico this is something um Laura asked um yeah if you wanted to do that would be like next steps to get that going yeah uh totally down for trying this out at hackathons and uh yeah especially in the ethereum space um so I should say right now we have a small cohort I don't want to call it a network there's a small amount of people uh out in the mountains in Colorado kind of where I am base crypto native people that are using this we're doing some preliminary testing uh and it's it's been going well um in order to make this happen it's

something like youth Mexico basically what we need to do is yeah get you a couple few radios down there I should probably talk about price a little bit so the smallest possible radio and you can go crazy and get crazy coverage and all this sorry um you know smallest radios like three 400 bucks and you can do two square miles with it provide LTE coverage that you get you know a couple hundred megabits down um so yeah basically what we need is to put a couple radios down there in the venue uh the radios are maybe two square feet each um and you need to give them outbound connection

um but yeah you'd set up two three of these radios uh I guess it depends on your space size um and then you'd give out sim cards like at the door right uh you'd give out these special SIM cards to give you a hardware wallet and also access to this you know decentralized Network in there um I think there's a huge opportunity for doing it at places like that because it always tends to be that the Wi-Fi sucks uh or the internet is messy uh in one way or another so I'm all for it let's talk about it so would it be possible to get like a a kit with with some radios and SIM cards ready to go yeah how much would that be for like I don't know like a hundred Sims and the

two radios you said yeah I mean um a couple Grand maybe uh I'm trying to estimate but I mean listen radios you could show on for 400 each let's say you get three 1.2 K and then let's say I don't even get the Sims in bulk and we just have to buy them one by one and they're like eight bucks a piece so yeah about about two G's you could do it um you bring your own backhaul and yeah do something like that cool and and how can I help make this successful that's what Josh has and if there's

anybody any other questions yeah if you can uh if you find yourself so inclined um any help on any side of this is great um if you have questions or issues uh GitHub is probably a place to put them if you're a developer obviously like especially if you're an embedded developer and you like to uh Messer cards or you like to write uh the rest of the telephony stack is in C C plus plus if you like these languages uh please let me know

um or even better submit a PR uh into one of the repos um otherwise I think it's a good time to just start kind of yeah start trying to talk about this as a primitive as a new identity primitive and as a new Hardware Outlet primitive uh in the space super helpful um yeah I mean otherwise please I should note uh uh amazed kid in contact with on telegram uh in the chat here I'll drop my telegram ad um and yeah uh you can hit me up uh and yeah hopefully we can

find some Avenue for your talents uh to be clear uh it's only me working on this right now so any help is appreciated um whether it be in building Community uh or places demographics that need this or developing um I guess the intent here also is uh I'll throw this out as sort of like the pitch line uh um yeah here is sort of to do like uh to I to realize uh like Universal basic internet um everybody talks about Ubi Universal basic income but I think an easier goal is universal basic internet uh your

internet's uh marginal good you're never always using the entire connection at one point why not share this off and uh and give people some free bits and bytes and why not try and reinvent the normal Telecom subscription model you know like I don't want to pay monthly what if I could just stake a token uh and by staking it I get service or something like this um and like back to the universal basic part like why not just give a small you know low speed connections they're ready for free I mean we can start blasting off ethereum transactions with definitely have a harbor while inside the stand you know we could carry what like half a megabit a second over this

for free uh and you can start to create like things that look like Network States uh nation state Network State you know all these ideas are super relevant so if you want to wrap up I think this is uh [Music] any other questions oh there's one uh for men randomish walk what happens if someone gets physical access to your sim and also are you in contact with the ethos at their phone after I think they forged graphene OS and relying on the

Google pixels trusted off clay for securing private key just curious on the pros and cons of the two approaches yeah great great question so um right what happens if someone gets access to your physical Sim um you basically have the same attack surface as you're going to have with what happens if someone gets my ledger right like this is all stored um in what is presumably and again like there's Turtles all the way down but this is all stored in you know certified um secure um where like tons of Hardware protections and protections from side

Channel attacks like these big companies like arm and nxp of diamond um oh you're a tax purpose they've become like yeah like okay if I get physically get a hold of this thing and I am able to like Decap it and look with some super fancy Microsoft but maybe I can grab a private key um you know um so so it kind of breaks it down to the same same issue with with The Ledger uh the part about the network subscription piece is a bit cooler maybe because you can always just have like a delegated or account abstracted public key that authenticates you but is linked

back to you know like your account that owns some stake in the network or whatever whatever um so like in the hardware wallet context it's a little the same the same attacks or physical Factor as Ledger um or any other physical practice and then for the network side of things like this is this is how like okay let's say you lose your sim um that gets you on the network whatever that's perfectly fine because all you have to do is go into the on-chain registry you have to pop a new sim in go into the on-chain registry and just change out the public key that gets service um of course you know if you have like

Hardware wallet funds on there you should always back that up um that's uh that's kind of the problem space there um the other part of the question and there is and am I in contact with ethos slash the ethereum phone after the Ford graphing OS and relying on Google pixels trusted Enclave to see your private key so very interesting I didn't know too much I first time hearing about ethos I'm very familiar with graphene OS in fact our daily Drive graphene OS on my Android phone um using the trusted Enclave for securing private Keys is an interesting notion um I think that it's perfectly fine and valuable in a lot of contexts of course

once you start doing that you know you're going to download an app now your phones touch the internet now you're touching some app now you're trusting some app um and then you also have to have a hell of a lot of trust in Google um so I'm a bit of a zealot but I've watched many secure elements platforms already you know I already have like a Litany of attacks for example Samsung Knox um which is in Samsung phones has a lot of critical attacks until sgx same as a lot of a lot of attack surface apparently um so yeah I guess the the Zealot piece here comes from like okay you can have

the same type of secure element outside the phone as like in the SIM card uh as you can soldered in what happens when the soldered in uh integrated circuit like there's an exploit for the Google secure element or the Samsung secure element you can't take that out of your phone uh and get a new one right like with with the SIM and this is also a segue to talk about e-sims but with a Sim you know if someone comes up for a with an attack for you know one of these Java card secure element platforms first of all it's you know probably worth some money but they come up with this attack all you do is take your sim card out you go buy one that doesn't have the attack

surface or that isn't vulnerable different brand different model and you use that instead um you don't have this thing that you you don't have this possibly exploded dead weight you're always carrying a rat out so the other part of this is people always ask me about esim right for the same reasons I'm a bit of a zealot I prefer a physically removable Hardware wow but um esim you can do all the same stuff on esim your esim also runs Java card um but it's you know it's a soldered in piece of your phone um but the piece that's a bit well completely disadvantageous and also

sort of the way that telecom operators are trying to suck control back is so with this sim card with a physical SIM card I can put any applet on it I can write my own Java card code whatever I want to do um and I can even lock it down after that I can whatever I want as far as applets go with esim they added one extra layer of security sort of to the point where it's like uh like basically have to get a taco or uh a big boy to sign off on your Java card applet before they'll let it in the esim um so like that's kind of a deal breaker

from this aspect because not symbolizing that like you know some entity is signing off on my path that this is good you know it doesn't sound open um and it's not you can pick the entity it's not like you can go and say like you know it's not like where you can you know oh like you visit a site that's like you know hired certificate do you trust it or I don't know this is in my list of C like do you trust do you want an exception uh they don't let you do that in these secure elements and but it's super interesting to hear that ethos yeah uh some connections or may be able to convince Google to use their key pair to sign things or to you know seems

like they might have some connections so I should totally uh reach out to that I will be for bringing that up [Music] I guess one last thing attempt to M her and telegram didn't seem to work yeah interesting hold on it's like let's see really that is a hundred percent uh my telegram [Music] um sorry it's been a long day all right here's it's actually Marcus eight uh [Music]

there there we go okay sorry so that's there all right uh if there's nothing else then thanks so much for your time and thanks for sharing this absolutely I hope everyone enjoyed it uh please reach out if you have questions or if you have ideas only open yeah thanks so much it's very cool thank you awesome thank you