Privacy in Cosmos: Xavier Meegan (Chorus One) - How validators evaluate onboarding Cosmos networks?

Transcript

uh yeah thank you for coming to the side stage uh presentation so today i'm gonna be speaking so first of all i'll introduce myself uh i'm xavier so i'm the head of research and also ventures at chorus one um i guess i want to like sort of start off this presentation by saying when i first joined chorus was about a year ago and it came quite quickly to me that when you evaluate these networks you only have a finite amount of resources in any validated company and in a way as a validator you take bets on on these networks because you like as a business you like to earn revenues and so you want to find the network that you think has the highest potential so for example you know for reasons that are not necessarily

explainable we're the number one note on celana we're quite good in cosmos but every network we look at now you know these are really important bets if you put your resources into networks that are not going to go anywhere then you're going to lose time and you know finances and everything so this presentation's a lot about like what i look for when i look at these different networks and hopefully if anyone in here you know you can take something from it i hope and also feel free to reach out to me anytime happy to help so with that uh yeah we'll get started so when it comes to like when we evaluate a network uh so i'm i'm from a financial background um i i have some technical ability as well so

we tend to look at the business and the technical side and then after that i'm going to talk a little bit more about like the types of roles that node operators play in cosmos right now and the challenges as well that you know we're all facing it's a business so uh yeah the purpose of evaluating networks is about that as i mentioned before like why do we go through this process in the first place so chorus one we're now a team of 40 people right now so we've expanded that from about eight when i joined last year so with five times their resources so it's really important as you're scaling like this five times in one year you need to be sure what they're all doing when they're doing it how they're doing and what networks are doing it on so it's a lot of organization why are you doing this

is to manage risk because it can all fall apart at any stage and this is really important like you can have the cosmos networks deploying all the time like this this conference but the validators that secure if these guys stuff up in any way then these networks basically don't work very well so business durability as well of course you know if you start choosing networks that are not sound uh the resources that you've got so we have you know 40 resources now we start choosing networks that aren't very good we're not breaking even with our own business and we of course go out of business another nice thing about you know evaluating networks is that you observe trends so of course at chorus we're multi-chain so i see cosmos solana ethereum avalanche i see almost all networks and so you can see what networks are doing what like who might

be a leader and you get a lot of knowledge from that and lastly is feasibility like we have these tech guys so at chorus one we have shards so we've got evm shards solana shard cosmos shard and then you need to work out if you want to onboard a network if they have the skills to do it or not or what they need to learn that's new because that's going to take time so you want to take the lowest hanging fruit let's say it's cosmos sdk is perfect example like for us that's very easy to onboard like many many other validators so yeah i think that's just something you need to take into consideration yeah so i'm going to start first talking about products so this is really important in in cosmos because cosmo's

the consensus cosmos sdk tendermint everything else ibc this is in execution so how you differentiating cosmos at least right now from what i see is really a lot to do on the product because what they want is thousands of blockchains so it becomes much more like web2 where you're starting to compete on how good your product is of course web 3 has incentives as well which we'll touch on in a bit but when we first start looking at a product we look at what's it in d5 metaverse gaming is another decentralized exchange there's like 10 of them i'm a validator i'm not going to validate on all 10. i want to choose the best one what other decentralized exchanges exist so i'm going to research them see what's the best compare them speak about it internally etc market opportunity this is how big the market is so if they're doing something

like blockchain for chairs okay it's got ten dollars so even if i have 10 market share on that or whatever as a validator i'm still earning one dollar so if the market opportunity is big let's say it's like metaverse and there's a big market opportunity so like passage is a good example of this which is going live in cosmos soon like that's a huge market opportunity so that could potentially be very successful and that might be the first in cosmos so we're of course going to try and participate in that go to market so this is really important as well so often i'll talk to networks and they will sort of have a lot of different things in mind about what they want to solve like problems for example and it's of course in crypto you can solve a lot of problems with one network but it's

really important at least for me that they're sort of focusing on one problem that hasn't really been solved in the best way before either they're focusing on a problem that's never been solved or focusing on a problem that has been solved but they're doing in a much better way because they're doing it in a worse way of course they're not going to win out unless unless there's marketing or something but you know this is normally the way it goes competitive advantage of course like why they're doing this network now understanding is is this the right time is it too early so i was talking about mev before on that stage like meds are very early so it's like maybe if you build an mvv product now which i know some people are in cosmos it might be a bit too early because people don't really they're not

familiar with it yet there needs more research so you need to understand if it's the right timing and execution risk this is probably one of the biggest ones in products okay they've got this vision they've got a white paper they've got a road map but can they execute on it like what's the risk who's the team like who's actually executing on bringing this because for example you know there's a network we on board sort of recently without naming names like even me i was a huge fan of the network like research like everything they had amazing team not cosmos and then it came to onboarding validators and they struggled they didn't know how to communicate with validators or run the actual network you know the peer-to-peer layer so this is massive so the product might look amazing and they might be

doing something really great and then they come to running the network with you as nodes and governors and then they just fail and that of course and you lose time again as a validator so that next we'll take a look at the team in foundation so you know where are they coming from they're coming from web two they're coming from web three they're coming from finance um the size so you know you have maybe it's like three or four of them so what are they trying to build versus how big their team is um so that's also important so if the vision is big like who's joining how are they getting people to join you can ask these questions when you start talking to these networks the distribution is it just for engineers and then they're like really struggling on marketing which we sometimes see with

our portfolio companies um you know is it bd is there research like do they need these members like sort of understanding that um the treasury of course like you know these especially in cosmos they have these treasuries that it's a lot of money like how they're deploying this money they're deploying in the most efficient way that's going to grow the network and then the delegation program so of course for any validators in here you know quite often a great way i didn't talk about it on stage before but this is true a great way to decentralize a network is for the foundation themselves to distribute their stake to as many values as possible don't give your stake to chorus one and figment like as a foundation you should be trying to incentivize the lower validators so that's really important okay so this is more of like a signaling

thing so once we talk to a network we start looking at who else is involved like the partners the investors in the community so who's invested like previous investments is there no vc you know is it cosmos vcs is it external vcs who's involved like what sort of community are they building here the relationships with node operators like i mentioned before so okay how much does the network value these node operators are they just building a product and a network without considering at all like the node operators and then it comes to the gain then we're in a circle and discord all of a sudden it all turns to poo because they can't communicate well when the network fails so other partnerships of course so like i'm going to bring up the example of passage again which i really like and i'm a big fan of passage so talking to

lex you know they're working with juno they're working with the cache they're working with many different networks and so they come from like a more gaming background and like you know virtual environment background and they didn't know a lot about blockchain they're using bit width to build the blockchain but what's nice about cosmos that people really underestimate and they're talking about before as well like mentorship so you can leverage people in the cosmos everyone wants to help you so how who they partnered with this network are they trying to do everything themselves and segregate themselves or they're trying to utilize what's already in the cosmos to build the best product possible existing uses of course this is like quite easy normally you can find this sort of data on like you know maybe i mean maybe it's on test nail maybe you can just ask users of the community or

whatever you can find ways to understand who's using it right now will they continue to use it and you can sort of make some judgment there on you know how big it's going to be then of course social engagement you know twitter discord followers you know it's hard to tell you don't know how organic it's going to be but you can normally get a fair gauge okay token economics this is like sort of like we yeah chorus one we really care about token economics um there are some firms in crypto like delphi for example that are just like absolutely amazing at this and people really forget how important token economics are in these networks it can be the make or break of a network so inflation so in cosmos we see a lot of networks like osmosis stargaze some really high inflation networks this is

quite like unique to cosmos and what it incentivizes is of course people to stake the assets first of all but then also with osmosis you now have like super fluid staking and what's happening in the first year of most of these networks is that the price appreciation osmosis is like a anomaly because the price did appreciate for osmosis but you could probably expect that the price will go down because some people liquidate their staking rewards et cetera but what's actually happening the most important part is the token distribution and how it's being distributed across all these people across different decks and decentralizing the token distribution so that's like interesting to think about also if you're a validator and it's like two percent inflation of course the rewards for you and versus osmosis if the network might be the same success uh it's osmosis versus another dex and the

other deck says two percent okay as a validator i'm going to choose osmosis because the products are same but the rewards are way better number of validators of course if there's 100 in cosmos that's great but the one that i was talking about before there was way less so sometimes the i guess the amount of complexity let's say there's 10 validators and the network itself isn't running very well so because there's less people helping it's harder to bring the network back up so the number of validators can count for that and also for like of course the staking reward distribution so if there's less validators there might be more rewards for you as well so it's a trade-off because there might be more work for you if the network doesn't work but if it does work and there's less validators you'll get more rewards token distribution this is of course how

much has been allocated to investors the supply of the token like inflation also goes with this a little bit as well when's it like vesting and unlocks from investors as well this is all like goes into it of course you don't want people just dump the token and after one year everyone runs off and the network sort of fails in that way uh and that's of course investing as well then the private round valuation so what we do at chorus one for any validators in here um we sort of have financial projections of a network which includes like the inflation the amount of validators uh different like token prices and market caps uh you know who else is like all these sort of different metrics trying to list them off the top of my head and then we have like four scenario analysis basically in

finance you have four different scenarios and then you try and find a base case using net present value of like what you could be earning per year if you run a validating node on this network so token economics in this like financial aspect is like really important if you're going to run a node on a network uh can help a lot like when deciding how you prioritize your resources so staking mechanism uh some yes quite obscure words the first two dot points for staking but like slashing and bonding so like of course this matters in cosmos it's normally quite similar but you know you can be slashed and in cosmos especially like solana's different for example you can't be slashed but in in cosmos you know if you're double signing etc you know you need to know this and so what we do for this as well for

anyone interested like we have a notion page with like all the safety and economic details which includes like the maximum penalty so bonding means like if you want to start running a note on a network how much of your own state you need to start running a node so like covalent for example was another network that we're gonna like on board in the next few weeks and and their staking mechanism it is a requirement that we do have our own tokens so if you think about like uh decentralization again like the ways that you can decentralize the network more well one of the ways you can decentralize it more is by not requiring the valve that is to have tokens themselves because then they might need to buy it people do this because they want they just have more skin in the game but what ends up

happening which happened on tezos as well is that basically you can just borrow the tezos so it doesn't actually there's ways to mitigate it and also we're talking about it before but like how can you get these lower validators to like get more rewards so everyone's more even even if you did that which i think would be great for the ecosystem there are normally ways that you can like mitigate it that people haven't even really thought of yet you know like for example staking like locking up your tokens on adam for three weeks you know now you have liquid staking which means you can sort of go in between your staking assets within like three weeks so there are people will always build things in crypto that get around uh certain aspects and normally financially they'll find ways to do that the reward mechanism of course like how they pay

out for example governance so this is sort of important but like how do you vote how frequent are the votes like on osmosis there are a lot of different votes which is great that's awesome for the for the network but then it requires more resources on our end so yeah that's like really important for us and other node operator roles you know like oracle's liquidation stuff like that so technical this is more like not on my end but i'm going to share it here anyway just in case it helps anyone um sorry i'm missing a dot point there but like so what what i normally do with like people in the cosmos like a product manager for example whereas i'm more of a researcher i'll work with them and they'll assess their github like the quality of the github the organization like how they're using tags and stuff like that and so of

course i'm not assessing this myself but i'm like communicating with our technical product manager what he thinks of the github like you know in goal russ this is more like not judging the language but judging if we can actually understand the language itself and we can do it and of course the contributors like who's involved just seeing if we can understand anything about like the project itself so it's more just like technical due diligence on that and of course i can't explain very much on this end because i'm not as involved there but i do have a few slides on it in case it helps sorry there you are so documentation so so like sometimes in a like a new stage of a network um you know they can go live or they can like start on boarding validators but it can be a really great sign from a devops

perspective if they have documentation that's really easy for us to read understand use is it complete comprehensive and updated like sometimes as well what you'll find with documentation is that like this happened with the previous network which is like okay everything was ready to go we were about to onboard it and then they decided to change the basically how the network worked but there wasn't much documentation for like how it changed it was like a fork and so it's quite hard for us to understand so it's really positive sign from a network if they share updated documentation with you it also relates to communication so if they do update the documentation they communicate it with you um yeah it's of course like just devops stuff so architecture this is more for us like

and again with resources okay we've only got a few resources how complex is the architecture if the vision is grand that's like awesome for the network we want to help them and secure that in the best way possible it was really complexity for us like it's like we have to commit basically it's all about commitments and so if it's really complex we'll try our best to onboard it but then if it's too much for us we might have to say no for example just prioritize our resources and we of course wish them all the best and help them find other validators but that can obviously be like this goes with feasibility as well like the technical feasibility can we really do this or not uh is it our stack like maybe we've got more cosmos engineers and ethereum engineers so if it's cosmos like i said

before we have a big cosmos team so the technical feasibility for us for that is like quite good because we have a lot of people that understand the technology signing support again this is more platforms than me but you know what's the curve like you know does it support hardware security modules and then the road map this is more like what they've got planned how many upgrades will they need how can we support them in the best way possible and because of course i think a main thing for us as well was like we can't be on all networks and we love there's so many great networks going live on cosmos right now so it's like on us if we commit to a network we have to make sure that we have the resources to really live up to their expectations of us and manage their expectations because

it's not fair for these networks to go live like on board like we would say we're on board then we don't have the resources and then they like always sort of pinging us saying like can you please upgrade so it's just like it's really of our day's responsibility to when you commit it's like a relationship and it's like you must support them in every way possible and if you can't support them in every way possible with the resources you have you should say no because they deserve better than that basically governance i sort of talked about it before but like do they have specifications processes in cosmos is very lucky governance is very straightforward this matters for other networks outside cosmos like sometimes it's off chain sometimes it's on chain sometimes it's a hybrid uh yeah so what are the processes of course like for

example in cosmos it does change sometimes like osmosis you know is it three days is it 14 days is it seven days like you have to be aware so you have to keep track of all of this to understand and again like it's about that is responsibility to make sure you are getting to every vote understanding every vote and you're contributing back to these ecosystems and okay upgrades i talked about it before but like as a validator you need to prioritize your resources and make sure that your every single upgrade um you know how frequently how frequent are the upgrades how they're being communicated so maybe i can spend like two seconds on communication like one thing as a network so for a validator it's really nice when someone and there's like slack telegram like emails like everything now like i'm someone who actually doesn't mind all these

communication channels but sometimes what can be nice is for people to choose one like as a network or a validators choose one this is something that validators themselves can probably work on like working with a network like coming together at the start being like how should we communicate because sometimes there can be too many communication channels between everyone and that's probably because they don't come to consensus at the start so yeah communication is like one of the biggest things in crypto especially because you have so many stakeholders in these networks so starting a network like finding validators like or you know with a delegation program bootstrapping the network and then everyone agreeing on how you're going to communicate can be any forum like that probably the network should choose that and then just making sure you're updated with what they're doing and making sure you can support it

as well so the last two slides i've got is monitoring and alerting of course like it can really help you if there's tooling or open source dashboards um really really nice like some some communities like terra for example uh this can happen with time and just maturity and experience but like we have our own monitoring and alerting and to be honest like that's not as much my my like sort of understanding of like the business so i won't go deep into it but it can help of course if there are dashboards and stuff that really help so i just want to quickly finish off with like i guess node operators in the ecosystem and like what we're sort of doing these days so i guess like my job is like sort of analyzing these networks and what's going on and the

the takeaway here is that the role of a node operator is like really changing like when cosmos went live a few years ago it was you know sort of you'd run a node on a network it was proof of stake now there are bridges left right and center you have to sort of understand what bridges are going live you want to be supporting the best bridges uh but more than that because there's so many networks we're now running nodes on and they're all go to market because quite early they want to bootstrap their nodes so you can see these different networks like going live and each time we see different network go live we like sharing our expertise with the next network so like what worked what didn't give them feedback because networks want to hear that and of course this is like as chorus one for example we have

experience like we want to share this with the networks so it's nice we're in a really unique role where we can share what what has what hasn't worked and what's nice in cosmos is that every iteration every network that goes live hopefully the validators themselves are like sharing what they've learned from these like different networks going live and it really improves every now where that goes live um gdm experience of course like you know marketing or token economics sometimes we share our advice with that as well what has worked what hasn't worked like just also the conversations we have like a lot of it is knowledge transfer and sharing because like a network wants to focus on what they're building like the product and like they want to go to market with that and so the validators like you know they've seen what works a lot as well it's like

this mental things like i was talking about a bit before as well and maybe a good time to also mention as well so ignite i don't know if anyone saw like on twitter the last few days formerly tendermint so they've got this incubation program going on now and we're a part of that as chorus one there's like ten partners there and so what we hope with this is that basically these we can just incubate these small teams like they're brilliant and then share everything we know like so not just one of us but like nine other validators and partners all sharing what we've learned like all incubating these projects like going getting them to market faster more efficiently with better products um and just again like knowledge transfer and sharing and helping them get going to market um and then of course like you know

we're well connected across chain so if you want a bridge or if you want to like use some partners or even bd or whatever you want i guess you know we have these relationships which is nice and we can utilize that uh and then just finally the final slide here is uh of course like decentralizing we talked about in the last session but this is a big big problem and we want to help out in the best way possible for this um i don't know if there's an answer for this like i'm sure there is and we're really looking forward to hopefully contributing to this and like really helping node operators scale with the resources they have like a lot of node operations in general is just resources and i keep saying that word but like it's really important like if you have these expenses as a small node operator

we really want to help you out like to make sure you can make this set um incentivizing relays of course so we don't run relays as chorus one but this is something in cosmos that is important now and like there's still ongoing research which is like sort of a nice problem space to check out platform engineer talent is like there's a lot of there's not many like there are great platform engineers out there but there could be more so it's like incentivizing these guys and trying to bring them over to crypto because they're like they're literally the heart and soul of crypto these platform engineers so can never have like too little of them maintenance of network upgrades of course like the more upgrades there is for a team the harder it is to get to all of them so they need to be really

careful before they commit to onboarding a network that they're going to make sure they beat all the upgrades and like you know really secure this network and finally just monitoring governance it's more like again this you just need to grow the team a little bit like the more networks you're on board the the more governance you need to make sure because you need to be there every single vote basically so yeah that's i i wanted to sort of leave the floor open i'm not sure how i'm going for time but i'm i'm happy to answer any questions i i'm sorry if i wanted to be more conversational with this presentation so yeah happy to answer any questions now about anything to do oh and here's my last slide uh yeah validating is still a new business like it's we've only been doing this for a few years and yeah

looking forward to the future uh yes no we're not now yep sure sure so so right now it's like in cosmos so i know like jack is working on relay dow for example which i i'm really so i to be honest i need to do much more research into this i've been meaning to get to it um it's about incentivizing the relays and when you incentivize it you probably

know like you get more decentralized relays and that of course is great for ibc um so you know us this course for example just take our example like we haven't joined like there's always something that we're researching in terms of like implementing or executing our own relay like we haven't joined i think is it in our intention to join at some stage but it's a bit of a different game like relaying to validating because of course the setup's a little bit different and so i know larry like between i think was like osmosis and terra or something like that like he was the only uh relay like that's a centralization risk in itself i guess so i don't have the answer for that now but i think what's exciting is that i'm sure cosmos has so many great minds in it like that will be solved i hope in the next six 12

months but yeah and i don't know do you have any sort of idea yourself about how that might be solved yeah you know you know definitely you know what's interesting sorry is i've been thinking a little bit about this recently of like right now there's not much incentivization for relays apart from the chains paying for it themselves so i wonder would like asynchronous mv if there's an opportunity across chains and of course the relay is the only person that can get you the opportunity maybe in the future at some stage like

you will have to pay the relay to execute this opportunity for you and that might be the way that they earn the fees this might be too far in the future but that could be like one potential way of solving it i don't know because i i'm not deep enough in the real life space but it could be interesting to think about i think who knows yeah yeah a little bit like that yeah yeah who knows yes sir all right if it works then it's even better but uh i had a question about the tokenomics and the return on investment that that all these validators have to kind of have to make a yeah an estimate about right uh are there any tools there i mean uh

excel spreadsheets uh jupiter notebooks i mean what are you looking for yeah that's yeah so these networks are different too right i mean all the fees and this and that and then all the incentives yeah um so like for example the what we use like this sheet it would be great to open source it but wondering like i mean maybe we will at some stage because we're very like we appreciate open sourcing at chorus but um i guess for a network what could be a risk here is if we give it to all you guys for example and girls like and then everyone's using the same spreadsheet and everyone's running the same analysis and then like everyone's choosing the same networks and it's like everyone's choosing the successful networks and then the ones that aren't

so successful like everyone shares the same thing it's a great question because i don't know necessarily the answer to it but i can explain a bit what we use basically like i talked about it a bit before so like these four scenarios we use like let's say that it might already be trading if we're a bit late so the base case is like the trading price now then we have like a bear case which is like maybe 50 less and we have like a bull case which is maybe like four or five times more and then another another case and then like you look at the inflation the amount staked of course matters in token economics so let's say that right now it's really live there's 60 stake so in these cases like i mean okay it's a financial case so let's talk about like the bull case even though of

course you don't want this like in terms of a validated mindset like you have less stake in the ball case because there's more rewards going to like the validators i guess and then in the more bearer case there there's more stakes so there's like less rewards going to the validators um or from inflation so it's just about like sort of changing the input slightly for different amounts of state different token prices uh different uh like commissions as well like depends what validator the commission you take it's anything you can think about with numbers and fees and prices and supply and stuff like that um and then creating like net present value what i do recommend validators is to look into net present values like a financial model um

you can use to sort of yeah map out the financial returns you can make and what we do it's per year so we'll like map it out and what we don't do though is we don't like and we should do this we don't like do the npv and then look back like one year later it's more like we just on board and we don't really look back but it's probably also a good procedure to to see how far off you are with the initial projections a lot of the networks are not even one year old so it's yeah it's hard to know exactly like yeah it's hard it's hard yeah okay any more questions yes now you have the incubation what you

explained so you have like 10 you know with 10 others and with a lot of cosmos change let's say the top 20 on uh two thirds or let's say one third in the top ten so how do you view that how we can for new other validators that are not big and don't have you know the name uh how can they become bigger what uh what are your advice yeah yeah um i think what works well for chorus that i i recommended so like i don't know if anyone in here knows like d5 times for example like some of my best mates in lisbon so what they're really great at and they're quite a successful valedictor and they started a few months ago is like content i think can be cool so like writing about a network uh having them

on some podcast researching a little bit about a network i think in cosmos it can be like underrated like just doing a little bit like if i am a token holder on osmosis for example maybe and like there's some cool thing for you just like oh they're doing uh i think there's like some lending thing or some leverage thing they're doing and i was most as soon like putting out some content and then some of it is mark i mean some of it's marketing of course like it's hard because for i joined chorus one year ago and we're already a bit of a a bigger vowel better let's say so and we were lucky because we were early so to say so like some of it is just timing as well like maybe if we joined today we would be struggling like you honestly don't know

so for a newer validator all i can say is what works for us quite well and it's just like content and participating in community discussion and also maybe as well what could be done like we don't necessarily do this but let's say there might be like an investor for example that has some tokens or you know some people that have tokens in a network that can delegate to you um this can also be good so for example if you are newer validator and you're talking to some cosmos network that's about to join the cosmos you can even ask them being like oh do you know any investors that might want to sort of stake some proportion of their tokens with us that can really really help and that's something that i would i would suggest any new others to try and do so um

the cost of um your nato is higher than those governments and all those other things that oh you know they are upgrading some non yeah donated chain and people support that and there's lots of them and could you see i mean could something similar happen with yeah yeah so that's another great question and this is sort of similar to the decentralization question as well um so right now i can sort of say for many

of the the larger validators there there are like significant bottlenecks and like we're having to turn around like quite a fair few new networks we can only get to like a small number now and that really opens up the floor to like these newer validators to come into like validate on these networks which i think is really good for decentralization um so one of the the positive side things of this like it's like the ico thing on cosmos is that potentially there are going to be some sdk chains that do fantastically and they're going to have a valve data set that is completely different to chorus and figment and whoever else like with new validators and that's one of the more exciting things and i think right now in cosmos we're going into this stage of like an explosion of chains so for sure chorus

and figment because we're already like imagine our capacity is like we're like 102 capacity out of 100 so we can't actually physically on board that many more networks yeah yeah no no so like at least for us like we're doing our best to onboard networks but it's like there's a lot of space for newer validators to really to probably take a market share i think like you know it's and that's great that's a great thing it's good for competition like and so one unique thing about chorus is this where like so other validators like you block demons i don't know if anyone's a figment here but like they're a bit bigger than us so we're like 40 still so some of these guys like 200 and we're deliberate we deliberately keep small

because we want to make sure everyone that comes in the company like cares about crypto cares about what we're doing and so one of the trade-offs of that is that we can't get to as many chains because but we only found this out recently we were talking to some of our peers and even the ones that are at 200 are struggling now so that's saying something so there's a lot of space for small bowel that is coming now and just start talking to chains i think as well what i would like to see because of course i'm part of ignite i'd love to get small validators in there in the next like asap like get them in get them in the process like help them out i think there's a lot of chance that it's going to decentralize cosmos because the whole ecosystem would never allow just like

three or four crappy like validators like saying you do this so yeah like we love being in cosmos but we're always going to do our best to help everyone else out as much as we can cool great oh by the way in case anyone wants to like you can chat to me around i'll be around the place or like on telegram xav megan or twitter zave xavu cheers for coming everyone appreciate it