Playing the Frontier Meta-Game, w/ Fiskantes | Layer Zero

Transcript

i i'm much more interested in in the quirky weird maybe smaller um so the frontier where all the magic happens and i kind of feel that crypt the like main meta purpose of like crypto in general is to enable as many new weird frontiers as possible and whenever the frontier moves away and the order is already established and big players come and start providing professional market making services it's not that interesting anymore welcome to layer zero layer zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations with the people that make up the ethereum community crypto is built by code this composed by people and each individual member of the crypto community has their

own story to tell the cypherpunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it and layer zero focuses on the people behind the code because ethereum is people all the way down and always has been today on layer zero we're talking to fiskantes or fisky who is an anon crypto twitter participant but also uh part of uh z prime capital and fisky has been known for just very good and sensible and strong takes in the crypto twitter sphere as well as being somebody who is just a well seasoned investor in the crypto space uh and we talk about the frontier versus the center of crypto and how the frontier always expands and it attracts the individuals the explorers and as the individuals of the crypto frontier who

are playing the frontier metagame find something new something cool like nfts we found nfts and all of a sudden it changed the overton window of the meta of crypto but then it became a little bit more institutionalized it came a little bit more expertise and so the frontier shifts and so as bitcoin has been completely subsumed by people that also trade stocks the institutions of the world it has become institutionalized and the frontier has been expanding beyond bitcoin and has been expanding beyond bitcoin ever since uh and so it got to ethereum but then ethereum became institutionalized it got to d5 but then it defies becoming institutionalized and the frontier is always where the individuals lie because that's where the professionals aren't

that's where the institutions aren't uh and so this is the way the crypto industry explores and fisky talks about why he enjoys being on the frontier so much uh we start with his background with poker and connect that to many other themes throughout the throughout the podcast so i'm sure you're going to love this thought-provoking episode with fiskanti's on layer zero right after we get to some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible if you're trying to grow and preserve your crypto wealth optimizing your taxes is just as lucrative as trying to find the next hidden gem alto ira can help you invest in crypto in tax advantage ways to help you preserve your hard earned money also crypto ira lets you invest in more than 150 coins and tokens with all the same tax advantages of an ira they make it

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a hundred thousand dow members are all robbing about at governance.avey.com hey fisky how's it going hey oh fine um yeah just in a hotel room in spain um thanks for having me in this weird hour of day oh of course of course thanks for making the time out of uh wherever you are making your trips forward to do this i appreciate it thanks um yeah i think it's better to be on this podcast and just partying some somewhere else so happy to be here very very true to crypto is like rather rather be in the crypto world when out and about um i i want to start this uh conversation with poker uh because you are one of those crypto people that came into crypto with a poker background uh and poker seems to be um what one of many ways that people ultimately fall in

love with crypto people that loved poker seem to be able to translate those skills into into crypto pretty well uh so i'd like to start this conversation there um how have you like noticed or paid attention to just like poker skills and how it relates to crypto skills um so i would say that uh poker in itself is uh very similar let's say to um trading more than like to let's say crypto investing or getting deep into the tech side of things which i was i started to do a bit more but still there are many lessons uh that i took from poker that i couldn't or wouldn't uh learn elsewhere how to apply um like basic uh statistics to make like

decisions uh under pressure uh regarding to finance right um and one one other thing i don't think i mentioned this one before uh because i was talking a lot about my poker background one important thing that i realized only recently is that uh during my poker career i had to play many tables at the same time because i was playing online and you need to basically make a lot of decisions pretty fast like most of these decisions are pretty trivial but you still need to like consciously make the decision and click the button and move on to another table and now i realize that uh when i'm like let's say researching our deal flow for uh for z prime i'm getting a lot of inbound uh through my dms i'm

actually pretty fast at like spotting what kind of things are interesting and what i want to disregard like some of my associates they go much deeper they start to like research you know see the deck they go to the uh some other data sources and they do a web research but that time i already know if i want to fold or can continue to pursue the the opportunity and i think that's something that's uh like maybe not many poker players would tell you that this is important because most of them were playing live where you only can play one table and you can focus on your uh one hand and one opponent but with online poker with multi-tabling this was very important to be able to kind of decide very fast and intuitively

and this intuition just i mean of course it doesn't just come out of nowhere you need to see a lot of action you need to play a lot of hands to be able to internalize like the decision making process in a way that i don't sometimes i can't even explain why i don't want to do some investment but i just know i don't and i need to spend a lot of time thinking to you know formulate my decision making process because it's so intuitive at this point i saw so many deals and similar to poker i saw so many poker situations that it just comes naturally so i would say that this is like one big advantage that's like less obvious than just saying oh i know what expected value means and how to play with odds how to have a correct bankroll management for example

interesting okay so yeah i think the to put the right image into listeners heads we shouldn't be like looking at fisky sitting at one poker table playing one game in deep thought about one move but instead like an array of poker tables uh going and paying attention to all of these things all these poker tables all at once simultaneously i have another friend that has the same background that has also done very very well in the defy space and he talked about how he had this script that would play in the background and it would just tell him the right move to make for like 99 percent of moves like most of the moves because like most of the moves like okay we are obviously playing this we are obviously calling we are or we are obviously

flopping or folding and so and then they would just call his attention into this one particular scenario where he would actually have to do the computation in his head and but it was like a chip in the brain right he was like this ai enabled thing able to master like he's had between 30 and 60 tables all at once and he was farming this whole like online poker thing and this script was playing to help him just like judge but he what he said that at some point when it came time for like the human element it was all about pattern recognition and like intuition and just like seeing and quickly interpreting data and being able to come to a split decision like very very quickly and if you're telling me that you these

skills have translated into the defy space when there's absolutely like no precedent with good products and or at least such a short precedent of good products in this space like that pattern recognition skill i think is must be the thing that's really coming alive here is that do you does is all that tracking yeah it is i mean i haven't played so many tables i played like up to 12 maybe 14 i didn't have any particular script uh so it was all like me doing the like quick math or whatever quick decisions but it's it's very similar um and yeah you are definitely correct that in crypto the landscape moves so fast and changes so fast it's very different than poke like in poker you still have like

fixed amount of cards you play with you know there are fixed amount of situations that can happen they are all kind of constrained between very simple set of rules in crypto you have all these like i don't want to call them games because they are some sometimes they are like legit uh products building something interesting but they are sort of gamified you know whether you need to understand specifically indeed finally to understand the rules very quickly you need to maybe be able to review the code if it's like fork of synthetics contract or if it's something new and then you need to decide very fast if you want to kind of farm or if you want to just do something else or if you want to accumulate a token and yeah so so i think like at the beginning when you like when the meta so to speak changes

you need to be more qualitative you need to go deeper into everything and only over time as you start understand start to understand how uh how this new uh set of projects or products operate then you can like switch to more like autopilot mode but at this at the time usually you know it already starts to vary so we are already looking where the ball will be next or what will be the next like interesting thing um and yeah i mean one more thing that's interesting with crypto and poker is that many of these like even d5 projects or even crypto games they actually face similar issues that uh that poker online poker rooms faced early on in the early days of online poker they were rewarding um professional poker players that

played a lot of table or gave them mode of volume which is now the same as let's say d5 project that rewards tvl like big veils that do a lot of uh lending or liquidity providing and this is something that actually was not sustainable especially in poker where you need to have both sides of the table you need to have professional poker players that are inspiring and attracting all the fish at the table they are playing all the volume but then you also need these guys that come in and want to play and have fun not just to win the money they actually need to be happy to spend money to be losing over time and still keep playing right otherwise the poker game is that so in many crypto games or even some d5

projects that are more let's say zero sum oriented or like shortly if this is the case and if you want to play these types of games more actively you need to understand this equation um that being said i'm much more enthusiastic about things that i can just bet on long term and and just help the founders build something really big but yeah i mean i don't deny i play a lot of these short term games as well especially early on in defy summer but i wasn't still so well uh well off as i am now with uh with my investments right yeah i actually want to go into that because i think that's a great um a great metaphor uh and we love metaphors here on banquets of course uh the can you talk about how people how these poker online poker rooms would

incentivize the volume incentivize the whales and and uh the the gist i'm getting here is that like you need to incentivize the whales because they're the liquidity providers of these poker tables it makes the poker rooms full it makes the poker website like easy to find a table um but also you can't incentivize the experts too much because then they'll just milk all of the newbies for all their money and the newbies won't come back can you unpack this dynamic a little bit more yeah i mean it was kind of simple the basic reward mechanism was right back so when you play poker you play uh you pay rake or fee let's call it a fee and uh when you play a lot of tables there were some you know some levels you could

achieve if you played a lot of tables or like turned over a lot of money where you would get uh so to speak great break back or like a rebate from the fee you paid and some poke players were actually just playing for the maximum amount of regret they could get and they would be with with fees they would be even losing money they were playing so many tables they weren't even winning anymore because they couldn't focus on the game itself but when you when they got their reg back back they would actually be up quite a lot um so they were subsidized their performance was subsidized yes yes and it was like basically just uh basically wash let's say wash trading incentivized wash trading when i when i uh make this comparison to let's say exchanges and

yeah this was of course detrimental because then you had all these brain that players that would play very boring abc game that wasn't entertaining for let's say um let's say um players who want to have fun they they weren't able to enjoy the game so much and they were losing money against them and they weren't even getting into interesting situations because these players would just play very simple and just play the best cards basically um so um so then like some of the best poker rooms figure out they need to cut this sort of uh reward scheme and they need to start rewarding interesting actions so they would be rewarding all kinds of uh things that would help uh

to make the game more interesting like the most obvious example would be win with uh 7-2 you know like which is the worst k uh sorry worst card in in poker and uh when you win with 7-2 or if you bluff someone out from the pot and then show seven two then you will have some bonus points or ray bag or something like that so this was something that majority of the best online poker room switch to to kind of attract more action more interesting fun action and of course like many many professionals were disgruntled by this because their regular schemes were cut down but it was i think not benefit uh for the game itself or for for those who wanted to enjoy the game so

i i kind of feel i mean of course d5 is not just like zero sum game against some like different type of players but it's still worth to figure out what kind of actions do we really want to incentivize for longevity of the project and not just for wells to come in suck it dry and then jump onto the next ship all right all right earlier you talked about um the difference between like qualitative and quantitative like eras of crypto where like as the new thing happens you have to lose your metrics and you have to leave your metrics behind and you have to go like understand something new and then and then over time as you understand it you can turn into more quantitative understanding of whatever this new thing

is uh is that when we apply this to the poker metaphor um and we just like have a ton of liquidity incentives or just like participation incentives for all of these uh all these people that are just farming as many poker tables as possible the when you said that it just turns into like drabness about the liveliness of the game as it is just like uninteresting is that just like we have these people that are just way too quantitative about the poker game and they're not being fun and so like the poker rooms would have to like throw in some like gold stars every now and then some like some easter eggs just to add it make it more like quality of life is this like the the progress

that's one aspect of it but the other aspect is that you want to uh make this quantitative uh very like uh professional and not uh into the game type of players win less so the players who want to enjoy the game and who want to deposit the money into the gaming ecosystem are actually happy to do it that they are not losing as fast right so that's another maybe even more important aspect to it but we are talking here about zero sum game which like a lot of crypto is but not all of it so there's a big difference between crypto and poker and other zeros some games that crypto is actually you know despite the fact that like ninety percent of it is still about speculation it's still like building something new

that that can grow like multiples right and it can yeah it can make a meaningful impact that was one of the biggest reason i kind of quit poker and started focusing elsewhere because i didn't feel like playing cards is like you know it's something that you can do for life and just be satisfied with it right right it's extractive rather than rather than generative i i want to apply the pendulum between quantitative and qualitative uh is is that a pendulum in d5 space like you know we create we created uh yield farming with the comp mania back in 2020 that created uh defy summer and that was like a new paradigm and so people had to re-establish their their fundamentals and then nfts came that was a new paradigm is this like a pendulum between like qualitative and

quantitative would you say yes yes i think so and uh it's uh like like these legions now call it uh meta or changing of meta right there is like there was olympus fork meta and there was uh before it was yield farming metal or iron fork meta and nft meta and for me the the qualitative is definitely much more interesting i want to kind of predict what a new meta will be before it happens i'm not really and there are many people i think the majority of people for some reason they are much better at the second phase where the meta already occurs and they try to chase the copycats and forks and they want to kind of systematize the game at that point in time i'm usually

already like kind of over it and i'm trying to find what the new interesting thing will be of course i can be wrong it's much more risky endeavor but it's much more fun but i mean majority of people i speak to and interact with in crypto they are much more interested in like establish meta and how to like kind of uh systematize it quickly like so when olympus uh was a big thing then like everyone was jumping on olympus forks and i was already looking elsewhere like it wasn't interesting to me to just go too much into detail into various uh copycats so um yeah it's definitely definitely a pendulum but i think there is like more value to focus only on one leg of the pendulum and for me it's the first leg

right okay yeah so you got to pick your side to optimize for uh isn't like that predicting the next meta gotta be like it's got to be the hardest thing to do you're basically trying to predict the market right yes yes and it's very it's not a structured process it's just basically if you have enough time which is a luxury of course enough time and focus to [ __ ] around and just do what you find enjoyable then you can really find new meta just by accident by just being somewhere very early and just play with it without even expecting this to be a next huge meta like this happened to me by accident uh when i discovered nfts like in 2019 um i wasn't too much into art

or anything like it but one day i stumbled on super rare which was like very early nft or it still is nft art marketplace and i was a scrolling through like this actually pretty cool i can collect art uh support some digital artists i i can like buy their pieces i can maybe display them somewhere maybe i will have a some sort of a screen at home but i can you know display my art pieces as i would with like physical paintings for example maybe this is yeah and i have like some sort of a ownership proof which you know uh falls back to like this tokenized blockchain sort of asset that i i own with my signature so i was like okay this can be interesting i didn't really expect this

to be like super huge but i started to buy some some nfts from these artists early on some of them made like huge multiples and i suddenly realized that i am early enough to be able to understand and orient in the nft space even though i didn't expect this to be like new huge thing i expect it to be some sort of a fringe thing for a couple of enthusiasts so and one of the reasons i was able to do that was that i'm working with a team of people i'm not like solo lone wolf in this sense so i had more time to just just do stuff that picks my interest um there are people out there who are doing everything on their own and they really need to be focused on their niche and

they don't have the luxury to just go go for it and discover a new like weird things that are that are happening maybe under the lead somewhere so where would you say we are now in the meta the one thing about the nft meta that seems interesting to me is like it's not like we rotated from the d5 yield farming meta into the nft meta well we did do that but then the nft meta continually changes in of itself so we have the changing nft meta landscape and then the actual higher order nft meta itself right like nfts are a new thing but then like people rotate inside of the new nfts like right now i think we're on like anime anime like uh nft profile pictures is like the new nft meta uh how would

you if we wanted to describe maybe both like the meta inside the nft but also the current meta of the entire crypto industry like how would you describe these two metas um okay so so like nfds itself in general i would say are something like layer social i don't want to give it a number because you know layer one layer two layer x whatever but it's social layer for for crypto i i think that uh since nfps became uh somewhat big uh the like even twitter changed very much like before that you had all these debates about which uh blockchain is more decentralized or bitcoin versus ethereum and most of these debates were very

technical or there were maybe some traders were posting charts but i'm not sure if you like notice but with nfts or like nft is becoming a thing that's popular suddenly you you saw very new interesting class of people joining crypto twitter like artists um some people who are maybe not very technical but they they are good at branding and they are good at like social he's like let's say nft influencers or some of them like pretty influential in the space and these people started to have very different types of conversations that what we used to even girls like there are now so many girls in crypto and i think it's mostly thanks to nfts um we had much less girls

before so it kind of it created a whole new social layer that now changed everything changed the discourse now like everybody is talking about hugo labs and like cartoon monkeys on the blockchain right which was like five years ago it would be silly to just discuss if this thing can be huge because it doesn't doesn't even like do anything with decentralization or like financial infrastructure of unbanked or anything like this right so it's just very different thing and people just jump onto it even though you know maybe these people may not even realize how blockchain works anymore so so this is very very new and this is very different sort of uh like uh meta that that wasn't here before and

when it comes to um nfts specifically yeah i i don't really i'm not like very versed in like specific nft uh projects right now i know that we focus on that much i much rather invest in underlying infrastructure but yeah i definitely noticed multiple like uh sub metas like there was like art blocks generative art which i really like i think it's very interesting um now it's kind of down like it's not really as popular now like all these cartoon pictures are these like pfps are still popular yes anime is definitely um anime is definitely interesting meta but anime was always like simmering in the background of crypto culture right it just seems that

right now with azuki as like first celludo anime so to speak project uh all the others are trying to get traction but it like this is like fast fashion to me it's something that changes so fast it's not something that you can really like focus on long term with some consistent one unchanging these is you either invest in infrastructure or just need to jump really quickly between modern trends and i mean there will be people maybe even outside of crypto who will be much better at this than crypto natives like people who are maybe into fashion into brands or into like online marketing or whatever yes yes yes so i kind of feel that this is not my turf so to speak um i play with it i made a lot of money maybe more by luck

than my like skill um but yeah i feel that there will be a couple of things that may have some like longevity to them maybe some historically important or fully on chain for like this hardcore enthusiast of this kind of um pure unchained art pieces but i would say most of the value will keep moving very fluidly between different trends and even when you see someone like i don't know justin bieber buying board 8 or something and flashing it uh on on his twitter like next month he will have something else or best case scenario for for for him will be that he will create his own sort of

collection and start flashing that i mean that's it's just too fast you can't really i mean maybe there are people who are good at this but it's definitely not me and this will be the thing that will keep changing the fastest right from all the crypto methods right yeah you talked about the the nft layer as like part of the social layer of the crypto industry oh it's mainly on crypto twitter right because it's like where everyone congregates and even like the d5 people who are just like not really into nfts still talk about nfts like ryan john adams for example he is not an nft person at all but he still has like has had three nft profile picture picks over the last like year or so like the turtle

the mfr and now the moon bird and so even the d5 people play along with this whole like nft like conversation just because like i don't know it's easy to look at jpegs especially on twitter do you think like this whole nft meta is like a permanent layer of the crypto industry or do you think like because and like do you think it's just going to be like the shelling point for the the what we talk about on the social layer or do you think it's going to eventually kind of fade into into separate cultures and you have the nft people elsewhere who have the nft profile pictures and like the rest of the crypto industry um i don't know i kind of think that there will be couple of nft like trends that will be more crypto native and that will be closer to the

current let's say ct crowd but i expect nfts to kind of branch out to capture sort of mainstream audience maybe they will be even more centralized or something but they will capture mainstream audience even though that these people may not even uh consider themselves like crypto users they will be just holding some pictures somewhere and i mean i met i met a guy in las vegas an asian guy who was uh like let's say ultra rich and uh he his instagram is basically full of like super expensive cars and his photos in private jets and one of the instagram stories he showed me was just his board ape and i'm pretty sure this guy doesn't

even know that there is some sort of ape airdrop or discord he could join he just somehow figured out how to buy board a because he saw maybe justin bieber or someone else flashing it and he just wanted to you know included in in between his instagram flexes about his wealth so this kind of people i mean they will keep coming some of them will be like super rich some of them will be just someone who wants to maybe play some nft game or do something else with the nfts but they won't be necessarily connected to cryptoculture at all right right and this is all reflexivity right like monkey c monkey do like exactly yeah no pun intended with the actual like monkey board eight actual pictures we're just seeing like mainstream like nfts were able to make

their way into the mainstream by like being reflexive enough to like inject that energy and like you know launch that out of the crypto industry and into the mainstream uh and now like crypto is cool enough to the point where people start like just copying what we do without even knowing it yeah definitely and uh yeah i think i said it somewhere um nfts to me are the purest form of let's say speculation on attention right or it's like the purest like market representation of attention you can have because like usually nfts are nothing else than just these pictures that are maybe cool because someone is wearing them or someone is shilling them or using them somewhere or flushing with them um and other people

just pile in and then like you can as you can see someone sometimes this attention rains very fast and then they jump on to the next thing um i mean of course it happens with like fungible tokens as well but it feels like and it's just are more purified because in with most of them there is no promise of building some new interesting like product some sort of financial infra layer or anything they just here is the 10 000 pictures if you own one you are part of our community or club and you can flash it as uh your profile picture and you know maybe if you buy now maybe it will go up in price because a lot of other people will want to flex with it too um so yeah it's like purest form of attention tradable attention that's

that i know of and maybe like okay so one one like uh tangential point would be that bitcoin itself for me at this point is sort of and not like nft but something similar because it has very strong culture behind it it has very strong set of values and like signals you are signaling with it but it's not accruing any other value it's it's basically a pet rock right um but it has such a strong like narrative around it that it's actually maybe closer to some nft collections than it is to like proper um let's say financial layer although you know maybe there there will be you know some other use cases to it like settlement for big

financial transactions but still like many people are actually flashing with their bitcoin culture like would they like like they would with like crypto punk let's say right right and that does actually kind of like lend itself towards the i think i want to ask your opinion if you ascribed to the notion that part of like nft culture and also what you said with bitcoin culture uh is a part of just like the cultural zeitgeist of the world at large right now like there's something uh i mean maybe you disagree so i want to get your opinion on this but like there's something about the whole like robin hood gamestop movement that seems to be aligned with like nfts where like there was like we just like

the stonk i like the stonk and it's like oh yeah like looks rare like i like the nft looks cute it's the same it feels like the same kind of thing and like i think if i put on my bitcoiner hat i would say that like all this money printing and the inflation and the devaluation of the us dollar has created some sort of like demand to like obviously buy bitcoin like that's the whole point but also like play in these nft games where there are no like real there is no real value it's pure mimetics but like when we have an inflating like money supply all of a sudden like playing in these weird nft cultural uh jpeg games seems a lot more like uh normal and permissible uh and i'm wondering if you see like are nfcs

they're just like weird like niche of the crypto industry that somehow caught traction or is it like also just a part of a larger story of like the global changing world order um a very interesting question um so like one one point that i kind of felt from what you just said is that uh you mentioned some sort of financial nihilism like nothing makes sense anymore so we'll just buy expensive pictures of monkeys right let me just trade them and like dump dump them on on each other's head um so that's probably um a larger part of like this or a smaller part of larger trend that's already happening for a few years even

before crypto um and i think someone i'm not sure who but someone called it speculation is eating the world like people want to speculate people want to bet on things even though they may not be like sensible you know undervalued investment so to speak people just want to speculate actually started with like forex or uh widespread uh forex trading uh or brokers that were suddenly targeting retail uh for forex trading so even before crypto this was actually a thing with crypto just you know on on steroids and um yeah so like let's say bitcoin is a huge part of or was a huge part of counter culture and now when we see how much it correlates with uh with stocks it kind

of feels like this counter culture movement was assimilated into the mainstream and the people who own bitcoin are also the ones that trade or own stocks right so it's it's basically um now the same thing risk on asset uh as technological stocks and then uh like gmt and uh these uh other meme stocks i would say okay so part of the reason why this was a big thing was that okay people said i just like the stock i want to support the company but there are also very smart people who figure out the rules of the game the fundamentals of like gmt stock was were not about the company financials anymore it were they were more about how the

how the positions of these big funds are structured you know that they are like shorting too much and uh yeah they have unsustainable books so i mean there were there were some very smart leaders in these reddit uh reddit communities wall street bets that figured out these dynamics and then of course they put leaned into this meme stock narrative and um coordinated some masses to to kind of jump into the bandwagon so i mean there are definitely there is this nihilism i like the stock i just want to buy it you know i like elon musk i just want to buy the slide i don't care how many tesla cars are being sold but then there is also this other part to this which is like let's screw up uh the big hedge funds that

are you know value extractive um so yeah so there are two parasites financial nationalism and then counter culture that is not nihilistic it actually has values and the values are kind of opposing the the current uh uh world order as you said one interesting thing about nfts in this context is like as i said bitcoin is kind of being co-opted you know all the like big financial institutions are now basically on board and they are maybe trying to provide some bitcoin services or at least i don't know they are maybe buying them for the clients or something um but you can't really do it this easily within like traditional finance with nfts because they are like non-fungible right so it will never be

i mean on aggregate it will be huge probably but any individual nft collection will never be as big as some fungible financial instrument or financial asset like bitcoin but you know that will enable these small players to just play with these assets without big guys coming in and just putting the fun so i think that maybe nfts will be this important uh shelling point for counter culture to kind of persist even though it's it's somewhat failed in larger like crypto assets um but the other point maybe my counter argument to my own thing i just said would be that i haven't seen any nft collections or nft projects that would have some strong

set of values behind them like when i buy bitcoin or eat i represent some like movement i have some set of beliefs usually or at least originally these people who were original bitcoiners they had some set of beliefs and now when i buy crypto punk or ape i just i just want to be cool i just want to follow justin bieber there is no particular like set of values that i'm following i'm not signaling with my board a that i am against banks and for decentralization or anything like that i'm just signaling that i'm rich enough to afford the knight okay this is put but a lot of thoughts uh so uh kind of the meta question i want to ask

is does the counter culture of crypto always move towards the periphery right like if bitcoin's at the center of this whole industry because it started this whole thing but now bitcoin is becoming institutionalized it's becoming a shared portfolio asset with many tech stocks and it's no longer the frontier right it's no longer the counter culture uh and uh and so people have moved on to like the new meta the new meta the new meta is also the counterculture is a question and so like right now maybe it's like the 10k ens club that's the new frontier where people are buying like four digit ens names like seven four six two dot en eth uh and like they're not do and it's not really a statement of like any values or purpose

or missions like like you just said it's just like no i just want a four-digit number because i think it's cool like and so when you tell me like the frontier the the counterculture is moving away from like the mission-driven stuff i i kind of feel like those like uh the the image of those like goth punk kids in high school who like it's cool to not care about anything so like you know i'll just eff it i'll just buy like a anime pfp or i'll buy like 7482.eth as my ens name and so like you know the frontier is always going on and that's where the meta is changing uh and it's always it's also where the counterculture is is are all of these things tracking in your brain yes it's uh yeah it's something i strongly believe in i i mean this is

just my opinion but uh or subjective thing to say but i always feel like frontier and counter cultures are much more interesting and provide much more opportunities especially for smaller um like players or users than what is already established or like here long enough so like for a good example is uni swap version two versus unison version three where i despite the fact that unisa version three is like much more efficient and you know all that stuff clearly unislab version 2 was by far one of the biggest innovation in within d5 or maybe crypto in general because it enabled like long tail of assets to like

boost obliquity very easily without any hassle anyone can jump in and become a liquidity provider unisa v3 is already defeating this this purpose somewhat with uh like all the complexities of mev and like uh adverse adversarial flow where you as passive liquidity provider in v3 in most cases you are losing money if the pool is not incentivized enough or if it's not correlated um the assets are not correlated but this is something that now uh like attracts most of the volume is more efficient of course like big players are happy maybe something like uh central order books uh on some more efficient uh layer like zero knowledge or

maybe solana will be even more efficient but that's already just you know it's already settlers coming in and settling what what's being like conquered by by conquistadors before um i i'm much more interested in in the quirky weird maybe smaller um so the frontier where all the magic happens and i kind of feel that crypt like main meta purpose of like crypto in general is to enable as many new weird frontiers as possible and whenever the frontier moves away and the order is already established and big players come and start providing professional market making services of course it's like the total addressable market of this thing

will be much bigger for like majority of big assets it's better to be listed on more efficient exchange but it's not that interesting anymore it's already something that we already somewhat know from the old world and maybe it will be co-opted by big players and the the frontier is always where the magic happens i always rather be on the frontier and make a bit less money just having more fun discovering new ways how to do things then compete with bigger players in some already established meta and trying to figure out how to make uh trading for big institutions twenty percent more efficient arbitrary is an ethereum layer two scaling solution that's going to completely change how we use device and nfts over three hundred projects have already deployed to

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your collateral is safe soon maker will be present on all chains and l2s so minting dye can take place on oasis.app xerion zapper or any other d5 protocol that you use follow maker on twitter at maker dow and learn from the oldest and most resilient down existence right okay this is really really interesting i absolutely love this so the idea here is that like the frontier is like people are exploring the frontier there's builders innovators people tinkering always on the frontier and they're discovering new things and then they'll discover something that is like cool they'll find like i don't know a small gold rush small pile of gold and then the meta will change for all the individuals who are on the frontier to go to that gold rush and then extract all the gold and that

was like uniswap v2 where it was a long tail of assets exploring like new possibilities uh but then that gold rush was just proven to have a bunch of value so the institutions came in like the bigger people came in because it was a proven use case uh and so they came and you know settled in on it and established uh they just boomered it they like they took it in and they they added like professionals and experts and well capitalized well-resourced players and then that pushed away the speculators it pushed away the frontier because people on the frontier the individuals on the frontier don't want to compete with the professionals right they don't want to compete with the institutions and plus it gets boring and so they go and find like the new frontier the new meta and they try and

explore the new thing and it would make sense because like as crypto gets mainstream adopted like first with bitcoin later with ethereum uh and it becomes like institutionalized it just pushes the explorers further out right like we're always going more west because people the individuals the frontier always benefits the the individual right you don't have to compete with the large players if you're on the frontier uh and so like as crypto becomes more mainstreamed the frontier also expands because it's pushing people further and further out into like crazier and weirder and more niche like uh things to investigate yeah i mean i'm imagining it as some sort of very uh like amorphous organism that grows

climate climate yeah yeah yeah some mole that kind of spreads out and some branches of it maybe go in ways that don't make sense and they die out but some of them will like tap into some new resource and grow much bigger and yeah it's it's very it's very organic and like it's so organic just because it's programmable right like you cannot really you can't really have this organism if you only have something like bitcoin bitcoin is very simple thing that uh of course it it works and it probably will keep working but it will never be as as organic as like free-flowing and just tapping into new weird obscure frontiers as you have with something like ethereum and smart contracts so yeah um yeah

all right and this is of course where the power of pattern recognition coming back to the poker metaphor uh is really really powerful where like you know there's a leg up an appendage of the slime mold can grow off in a in a direction in an attempt to find some resource to find some food so they can keep on so it can keep on growing and like good good slime molds will go and find the right food they will rout around the environment to discover the next resource the next value uh and then if they do that becomes like the new epicenter and then like new things can spin off from there and that like version of the slime mold can propagate and then the bad slime mold will go off and find nothing and then it will die and this all i think

depends on like pattern recognition right because there is no way to fundamentally understand anything uh in the crypto world on the frontier like it's all got to be pattern recognition pattern recognition pattern recognition is that right yeah i mean yeah and like coming back to poker like there were i mean i don't know there were basically many poker players many types of them but like two basic types of poker players where like one was more inquisitive was someone like me was rather trying to play different types of games and kind of move and see what's out there and some poke players were just trying to figure out how to be best at one type of game and these people usually even if they had some crypto because the first poker players didn't have crypto because they wanted to speculate they just

wanted to play on illegal asian poker rooms for bitcoin because there were no other ways of payment um and they had bitcoin quite early but they usually just didn't like it because it was volatile but some of them similar like maybe me uh started to figure out what this bitcoin thing is about and then we actually came from this small meta which was poker and actually like many things from poker are very similar to this crypto there are there is this like dejan culture um that is very similar to to to poker i have many stories that that would be like hilarious even within a crypto context but uh some of these people actually brought brought this culture from maybe poker or some other areas and usually

these people are you know they were not very um employable there are no types of people that uh that would find the job easily because they spent all their youth just playing cards and crypto for them when poker was kind of static to fade away and die it was some sort of a salvation that they could utilize their skills and they found very similar culture where they could thrive um so coming back to that it's like the the mold when when you imagine people as part of this mode some of them actually came from different types of area to to discover crypto and push it forward maybe a bit more do you think um that there one line i like to say is one of

crypto's best exports is its culture um like you know the meme of working for a dow where you don't have to work for your nine to five it's very freeing you get to do what you love you get to work for your friends uh i'm wondering if you have just an opinion on like a more like socio-cultural opinion on the state of the world and also what it takes to be a part of that slime mold because if you tell like i don't think people are the average person is not ready to be like an entrepreneur right an average person is not ready to explore the crypto frontier if if they even were magically able to like understand everything about crypto to be able to do that but i'm wondering like maybe is the last like 40 to 50 years of the world and of america just like baked

into this whole like nine to five corporate like culture and like this is just what you do you go to you go to work you don't explore you don't like innovate you just do your nine to five and then you're eight hours a day you maybe get like 90 minutes of work done uh and now we have like something completely different where like eight hours of day in in the crypto if you're if you're exploring the frontier is eight hours of progress for you the individual and i'm wondering if you just have any like grander like sociocultural thoughts about like is this is the zeitgeist of crypto like product market fit like are people of the normal world pre-crypto world looking for like this adventure or or do you think this is just only for like a select few niche parts of the population

no i i definitely believe i strongly believe that this new paradigm of work enabled by maybe not just crypto but like online coordination tools in general um such as discord it will like bring a big shift to how we like work and it's not just because like this is obviously let's say more enjoyable for i would say most uh fairly intelligent people and just go to work and you know bp or beep your card and you know then just spend like a couple of hours there just pretending to do something and then going home and thinking about your life it's uh not just like i would say more fulfilling especially as uh hopefully we will see more

automation in like uh physical space so we won't need as many like workers in a lot of atoms um but i also feel that it's some somewhat more natural to human beings uh similar to i don't know i don't want to spread too much into it but like some sort of hunter-gatherer mode of uh modus operandi right when when you were a hunter or gatherer you weren't just you weren't just bashing into something for for six hours at home you went out and then you were looking for opportunities sometime you saw a mammoth sometimes you just saw a rabbit sometimes you had to pick some roots and berries and you had to be very flexible but you on average hunters gatherers worked much less and they had more time to socialize

to like be within their tribe and just i don't know sing around the fire or something like that and this okay this is not like a one-to-one uh analogy but it feels very similar in crypto where you can like one part of your day spend like looking for new investments or speculations to make the other is chatting with your friends in some discord community group the other is maybe you part-time you are doing some design work or some coding for for some dao or a crypto project and you can like very fluidly switch between these things during the day and it works out well of course it requires much more ownership on your part but i would say like people in the past had this ownership

they were like wired this way and only with more like industrial age we were kind of forced to force into cubicles so to speak so i kind of feel we are kind of okay the the digital thing is definitely new studying uh into our computers is not you know something that uh our ancestors would do but like on on some level it's very similar with more like fluidity with more independent discovery of new opportunities uh more often than just finding a job once in five years right right yeah we are the hunter-gatherers of the metaverse right we're still sitting in front of our computers for like 12 hours a day so we're definitely not doing it in real

life but of the metaverse like we are exploring uh a lot and it's also in tandem with socialization because everyone's in like the shared discords and there's like twitter i actually want to pick your brain on that because fisky you're of course an anon uh fiscantes i'm imagining is not your actual name and you're of course camera off uh and and so i'm wondering like do you do real life crypto socialization or like do you or do you scratch your crypto socialization itch through just like online memes like discord or twitter i was very conflicted about it and for a long time i was very um very adamant about my real life privacy um but it kind of changed last year in lisbon

where after two years of covet situation um i i was able to meet many people that i interacted with for a couple of years in crypto and of course at that time i already had a larger following so many people i kind of knew who i am from online world and i could have basically two options either pretend i'm not me and just have this bland debates where i just kind of avoid anything specific about what i'm doing or figure out some some like fake story about me which would probably you know be much less interesting for me to kind of engage in or just say that you know okay it's me this is my face all right um and just let's talk and i i after some time

i actually gave in and choose the second route so now many people actually know how i look so i'm not definitely a complete anon um but it gave it gave a very new dimension to all my like uh cryptocity um life and experience because i met many people in person and this is something for us who still have like hunter-gatherer brains is very different when you meet someone in person and you can like share ideas and you know body language is important part of communications suddenly people you spoke with online are very different in real life and you kind of get a very different sort of information out of them when you speak like freely in real life so i'm definitely not anon i

gave in and i don't regret it but i remember at the beginning like i met uh stefan from flashbots and we spent a lot of time talking online and for like the first evening i met him i pretended i'm just some random guy he doesn't know and i was just asking him about flashbacks and and you know it was like it was okay conversation but it was obviously like you know we are both introverts so it was like more like forced conversation you know like okay so what are fresh books blah blah and then the next day i met him and i actually like uh told him i'm i'm fisky and he was like oh my god and we and we had very different conversation very much you know very more human very more like uh personal so it it makes a difference and

i i rather give up part of my uh privacy for this than like be very anal about like not showing my face right do you find that uh you have a different persona when you are fisky the anon versus uh are you probably assuming you call yourself i'm fiskantis in real life rather than using your name but like when in real life do you have like a different persona like either on purpose or on accident definitely not even on purpose an accident um like one thing is that everyone is free to like craft their online persona more easily you can use profile picture you can when you write something you can think twice about what you write um you it's kind of different especially for

like more introverted people who need to spend more time thinking about what they're gonna say when you write you have much more time so it's like it's more comfortable to craft your persona i'm i picked this like uh hisoka joker character which is very like how the evil sort of thing on purpose i want it to be more like edgy chaotic i want it to be uh online someone who is very like cynical sometimes and like have all these like sharp jokes which kind of i mean sometimes it's uh it falls this ma this mask isn't always on even when i'm tweeting online but i usually kind of come back to it but in personal very different i would say and i i feel kind of weird that people are like oh my god you look so different you know we imagined you being this like

joker very like uh skinny sort of guy or something and then yeah i'm yeah i think i'm very different person uh and it's not by by design it's like just how we form our identities online and i find it very interesting this this world where you can have multiple identities disconnected from your real persona online and some people i know some people have multiple uh outer egos or art accounts on twitter i can't imagine that i don't have time for that but some people can pull it off so yeah that's definitely crazy and also another paradigm shift which maybe in a way connects to the future of work online that you can actually have multiple identities for multiple work purposes

and it has a like huge like downsides as well of course you know you can you can have all kinds of people masking themselves behind some new online identity but i think it's very interesting uh sort of vector of of human evolution which we will see in next decades proliferate more yeah i actually want to dive into the online version of socialization do you like is there like a discord that you live in or a telegram that you live in or is there like some sort of uh online room that you consider yourself like a part of where you get your online socialization itch scratched uh i'm actually much less active in uh in like this popular online groups than

some other people um i'm not i i'm online very often but i usually spend most of my time with my team because we have like not only one we actually have a couple of teams that are all branching out to different directions one team is more focused on game games and game fi one is more into like d5 or general like crypto infrastructure thing so i spend a lot of time with my own team within like our entities uh such as eprime but uh i have couple of like private chats with uh with like let's say maybe up to 100 people from like d5 or like nft and there are like two or three that i'm

more active in but uh like over time i kind of figured out that if you kind of scale the group above dunbar number it starts to get noisy and then old i mean i i mean like i'm being added to all the telegram groups and some discords and over time i kind of feel that they all converge to the same topics like to everybody is talking about elon musk buying twitter or everybody is talking about doc or lfg buying another half billion dollars worth of bitcoin so it's it kind of it converges to be more uniform and only the small groups uh that are focused in some specific direction either groups of teams of people or dows that are building

something specific are still kind of differentiated enough for me to care um so i'm i'm less active in the private groups i'm very active on twitter though on on twitter itself it feels it's it's kind of it's very interesting space it will change a lot i would say i think crypto twitter will be much less influential over crypto landscape in general in a couple of years but it's one of the weirdest spaces i i operated in the uh the homogenization of like the big groups fits into the whole idea of just like as something becomes more mainstream it just becomes more professionalized or like just like more

um there's no alpha in like groups that are larger than dunbar's number right because like you said everyone starts talking about the same thing it's no longer the frontier the frontier has got to be when you're down to like a group of people that's like that you know everyone in that group right it's just like 5 10 maybe 15 people and like as soon as a group gets to like 150 plus it starts like you said sound like every other group that and so like there is no outfit there because the alpha doesn't get shared in the meta groups and i think reddit also has the same structure like there's many many critiques of like all like reddit old timers where like the the massive subreddits like our pix or like our news are just like just like homogeneous right there is no like unique thing about those

homogeneous groups anymore like and so it's always like the frontier subreddits the smaller subreddits where there are there are more niche experts is where like the quality reddit content is but then as people discover that's where the quality content is they start to float into those subreddits and start to homogenize them and scale them out and so i'm getting i'm seeing similar like um patterns here as to what we were talking about with like the frontier and where the alpha is exactly exactly i mean there are a couple of smaller groups that still like keep being interesting enough but they need to be kind of consciously um adamant about not letting the the group become too big or not

diver the discussion like people like especially in crypto people find it very hard to resist uh to post charts or like intraday trades uh or like stuff like that even in groups that are specifically uh set to like discuss let's say long-term fundamentals or something different like there are a couple of topics that are just irresistible to people and if you don't have enough contrarians that just don't care about this thing just keep talking about [ __ ] of the day or uptick of the day or like daily candle or whatever then it just deteriorates really quickly so it's a yeah it's it's a process that either you are very hands-on with moderation or you just you just keep jumping between small groups

or yeah just heavy or tight-knit group of people or tribe that you are very intimate with and you work very closely with and then if you one one other thing is within these groups i i would i think it's hard to measure but if there was a way to measure it i would like to see some dashboard for it would be the level of trust between crypto people and i actually remember one old very old skype group between online poker players from all over the world the only way how you could get into this skype group was to be invited by some already established poker player who was there and each poker player that was there i mean it was otc group for for crypto actually like 2015 or

something poker players were trading bitcoin for cash and how they do it would that they would uh basically either like use some paypal or uh some like skrill or some other payment system for smaller amounts but for big amounts they would actually do cash transactions so um for example i got into that group and my uh i i had some i had some euros i wanted to buy bitcoin i had them in cash and it was at the time it was fairly large amount for me and i guess for like almost anyone who is not like a millionaire and uh i got connected to this like uh poker player who was actually playing in the same city that i was taking there was some tournament in local casino i

came there you know that was this guy he was already asleep because he fell from the tournament um and then he went down to the casino lobby only in his pink pyjamas and it was like 20 year old german guy he was like sleepy and he came with his laptop he opened up kraken it was i think it was 2018. he opened kraken uh account and he basically transferred bitcoin to my address and i gave him money in like an envelope and he started to count it the money just dropped on the floor so he just picked them up in front of load of people he didn't even count he was like okay bye and he he walked away and this was the level of trust that was among these poker players whenever someone knew was invited the guy who invited him to put some sort of

collateral for the new guy that was there until the guy proven himself as like reliable and there was a huge spreadsheet with all the poker players there and how much they successfully traded with other poke poker people so there were a couple of guys that had like millions of dollars of turnover over their lifetime and this was some sort of a trust score that you could describe to these people i would like to see something similar within crypto because with the level of trust growing between some sort of tribal or like digital group or dao or crypto group you know things get so much easier when you have like five people that you can trust that they will hold one million dollars for you and you don't have to sign any contracts or whatever [ __ ] it's very

different than when you have 100 people they just share some alpha meaning they will show you their nft they already bought and then they will dump on you or something it's very different level of of coordination so i'm bullish on these types of groups but there is obviously not too many of them and there is no i haven't seen a tool that would track this as well as these poker players did this on skype with the spreadsheet right right well i mean as if a tool was developed it probably would mean that there's uh we're no longer on the frontier right so people are doing exactly skype on the on the excel sheet that is some frontier level shenanigans going on have you read the article called um squad wealth by the other internet group no i haven't i i know about squats uh

which is like these tribes of online people who work together somehow or yeah different things yeah no i know about this yeah it goes back into the whole like future of work thing where like the new paradigm is just making money online with your friends uh and so like this squad it has to be a small group of people like not not even close to 50 you're like we're talking like five to ten people where like no it's your actual squad like if you were in if you were in the real life not in the metaverse y'all would be going out to like the bar together on a friday night but instead you have like the online squad and you know maybe maybe you can scale that up but the point is like you there's not a single person in the group that you aren't familiar with and so

like everything in this chat is highly curated it's highly intentional you know the personalities of everyone and it leads to a lot of trust even though like you know we've never shook hands we just exist in the metaverse and we do that we just work together to make money it's like the new paradigm is making money online with your friends uh and it sounds like this poker room was like an early uh early primitive of this whole entire like squad wealth movement yeah i mean yeah that's that's a very good uh very good way to frame it um i would say that we have something similar with uh with z prime um i mean it's still an entity it has legal you know like set up somewhere in gibraltar and like you know it has all the formalities but i really feel like it's more about

this sort of digital making money together and doing cool stuff together then it is about all having lps and having an entity somewhere and making pnl um so i kind of feel that we will have many many of these movements kind of being maybe formalized at the start but then branching out maybe more to digital space and of course we know each other personally we we meet uh quite often you know in some retreats somewhere and like work together face to face but i mean it's important but i feel that in maybe for next generation it will be much less obvious to just meet in the meat space is uh the z prime discord is that like uh do people socialize in there or is

that strictly for getting work done no no we don't have discord we have to look we have a couple of telegram groups okay but it works very similar we socialize equals memes we have family we do all kinds of stuff um but yeah we also do work um so yeah it's it's it's very it's very tribal we make a lot of lot of cool interactions even outside of our context right yeah the bankless llc discord is kind of the same way there's about like 15 people in there that are in there like every single day like engaging and then there's some other people too uh but like we've started to generate like our own language our own like particular memes that we enjoy our particular reaction emojis that we use the most uh and it's just a fun place to be in like

in there's the way there as time progresses throughout the day like the mornings are for work and then the evenings are for ship posting uh and so like people start to like transition as as the day goes on people start to like we get to tie up our daily duties and and then in the second half of the day we're like uh we all go into what we call our hood rat [ __ ] channel where we just post hood rat [ __ ] like it's our like uh like this is the nft i'm minting or and like and so like people are out in like the podcast telegram or the discord or the newsletter discord but then everyone ends up in like the uh the alpha channel or the hood rat [ __ ] channel uh and it's just like it's like they're watching this like

social dynamic like for this social pack of animals like migrate around the discord as the day progresses and it's like this it's got it's got like a ritual it's got like time of the day it's got a uh yeah it's just an interesting dynamic is there anything like that that you see at the z prime capital um more more or less um we have like uh structure in a way that we have some weekly calls and we have a lot of calls with founders and then we talk about it on uh within our groups um it's uh we have couple of these we don't have like this gm sort of rituals where every morning everyone post gm we don't have that but we have all kinds of like internal jokes and memes and some of them you actually see spitting over to twitter if you

check like my or uh matigaxx account uh specifically between two of us there there's like a lot of banter that uh like internally you know makes a lot of sense and then we also argue a lot on twitter which sometimes is funny sometimes it's uh internal humor but we have this kind of dynamic setup which is which is very similar and yeah as you said it's a ritual it's something that you know like tribal societies gathered around fire every evening right so this this is something similar yeah certainly uh fisky if there's one piece of advice or one like rule of thumb that you follow that has served you well throughout your life uh that i could ask you about what would that be um

yeah i had okay so like one thing that i kind of feel that served me very well i'm not sure if it's very easily transferable but it's just i just got so comfortable with uh volatility with the way how i don't care about plus minus number up number down for me it just it's just not just non-event it makes me so much more um calm focused and happier and then i'm i'm also having a lot of fun seeing all the twitter guys just flipping out about prices when especially now and the markets are down so if if someone can get to the state of like

not caring that much of course you also need some sort of a sensible bankroll management which is probably another advice i would i would give like always have sensible bankroll management meaning you know like divide your portfolio into multiple parts and just have them have some sort of a backup if things go go down always have some cash etc never go all in you know risk only x percent on every farm or whatever um but with this like comes so much more fun like i i just have so much more fun when i don't have to stress about you know now daily bitcoin candle going minus 10 or something it's just it's just amazing so this is probably yeah so this is one thing and the other

thing is and i this is what i struggled with i'm i was more like a individualistic sort of a person during my poker playing career i was just doing everything myself i didn't have i mean i had some poke playing friends but i was playing on my own and only when i kind of ganked together with my tribe with different people who are good at different things and we kind of made it work together and increase the level of trust between us into unparalleled levels like my quality of life when it comes to like business or career like the next instantly um so probably these two things like if you if you can like i don't know meditate read stoicism or books from stoics and then

find your tribe of people you can really trust and work with and scale your effort and focus and everything you do within crypto will be so much more easier and enjoyable timeless wisdom of course thank you fisky for coming on layer zero and chatting with me it was amazing to to be on the on this podcast thanks for inviting me thank you peace hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you did head over to bankless hq right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence we recommend joining our daily newsletter podcast and community as a bankless premium subscriber to get the most out of your

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