The Plasma Thesis with Jacob Wittman

Transcript

I think there's a lot of US purchasers that are sort of shut out from the investment uh ecosystem because of of RAD. This just kind of, you know, strikes me odd, right? Why is a stable chain so important for Bitcoin? >> From your perspective, what is the current plasma bull case and plasma bear case? >> Welcome back to the rollup. We are your hosts. I'm Andy. >> I'm Robbie. And this is your home to learn from the biggest guests, the brightest minds at the tip of innovation. Our goal is to help spread the collective knowledge of everyone in our community. We are breaking crypto out of its echo chamber and taking it to the real world.

>> What's up, guys? >> Hello. >> Show, Jacob. >> Yeah, Rob. Andy, what's up, guys? How you doing, >> dude? How do I get a jacket like that? That sweater is sick. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, give me your address. I'll ship one your way. >> Those are for the Plasma Elites only, Rob. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll get one for you guys. Um, >> yeah, they're they're really comfortable. I actually picked them out, so yeah. >> Very cool. Well, Jacob, man, welcome to the show. First time meeting you as well as Rob. Um, at least that's what I think. Um, would love to just get a background on on yourself, man. Like, who's Jacob? What are your hobbies? What what do you like to do with your free time? How did you get into crypto? How'd you find Plasma? Kind of get us up to speed so we can have a little

foundation. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Happy to. So, uh, I've been a lawyer, uh, in the space for about eight years. Um, I started, uh, dabbling in Bitcoin in about 2012, 2013, uh, with a buddy of mine in undergrad. Really believed in the the separation of of money from state. Um, and and still do in many ways. Um, and that that really, you know, influences, you know, kind of how I operate as a human. Um, uh, went off to law school in 2014 and totally abandoned, uh, any focus on crypto. Was just totally focused on school at the time. graduated 2017, started doing capital markets work, mostly underwriter side IPOs, and the firm I was at at the time uh actually represented Blockstack with their reggae offering. Um so this was the first uh

token registered with the SEC and I kind of realized, hey, there's a niche here for for for crypto lawyers. So ended up becoming my entire practice. Um had somewhere between 100 and 150 clients. um moved in house uh a few years ago. Uh I was at a another L2 a layer 2 network. Um and then about four months ago I joined Plasma. Um one of the one of the co-founders is a friend of mine and it just made sense for me to join at the time. Um as for hobbies, uh I don't have any right now. You know, mainet launch is coming up. Uh but uh I have a ninemonth old son, so spend a lot of time with him.

>> Congrats. >> Yeah. Thanks, man. Thanks, man. I try to run and work out when I can. But yeah, you know how it is. >> What's it like being being a dad in crypto? >> Oh, it's great, man. It's beautiful. Um, you know, I think you just find like a new purpose for for what we do. Um, and uh, you know, actually one of the reasons I I wanted to join Plasma. Um, is because I think someday my my son's going to ask me like, "Dad, what did you do? What did you build?" And I'll be really proud to tell him, you know, I built Plasma, man. Like, >> I built it with this epic team that we have. Um, so yeah, that's uh it's it's it's it's pretty fun.

>> Well, things are getting hot out there, Jacob. I'll tell you that. This the stable chain wars when you joined Plasma may or may not have really existed, but they firmly exist today. I saw your tweet talking about Plasma really setting the stage for what a stable chain really is, if we're calling them that. I suppose that's the terminology nowadays. >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't I don't mind that. >> Yeah. Okay, cool. Um maybe maybe we can just understand from your perspective here you know how did plasma come about to leave this category right like I think it's very clear plasma is the leading stable chain today none of them are live so it's not even hard to have a category but when you're looking at this map here you're you're understanding

like okay there's a core uh core use case for uh payments for blockchains to you know verifiably uh you know conduct payments across global settlement etc. How do you think about this stable chain race today with regards to plasma leading the way? Um, you know, what is your broad holistic view and then we can dive in. >> I mean, the the easy answer is it's it's not a distraction for us at all. We we try not to think about it too much. We're, you know, we're we're we're heads down focused on what we're building. But taking a step back, when we first pitched Blasma, uh, you know, and and and this idea of a stable chain, it didn't exist at the time, right? People were like, "Ah, stable coins don't need their own chains." and and now we've seen some of the largest companies in

the world sort of validate what we're not not even sort of they are validating what we're building. Um you know even down to some of the same copy that we've we've we've discussed and um it just shows that you know we have the brightest team in the world thinking about some of the best issues and we're going to continue doing that to the best of our abilities uh even with some of these competitors popping up. >> Got it. Uh Jacob, another thing that I wanted to ask you about um is a tweet that you had. It was also uh it was a quote tweet on top of Vance from Framework who I think we're gonna have on the show tomorrow. Um >> awesome.

>> But I I I'm curious if we can if we can kind of get your take on this. Maybe we'll we'll cut the clip and we'll quote tweet your tweet. And you said uh the original was that plasma is the most important thing to happen to Bitcoin in a very long time. And this just kind of this just kind of, you know, strikes me odd, right? Why is a stable chain so important for Bitcoin? It's a great question, Rob. Um, so, you know, we are going to be building a a bridge uh to Bitcoin from Plasma. Um, yeah, kind of back to my early days in in in crypto. I tried to play with some early Bitcoin DeFi tools and they they just weren't very good. Uh, I think Plasma will be the first to really bring a strong distribution mechanic to to uh

DeFi on Bitcoin. Um, again, I'm a big Bitcoin believer. I think it's it's the the the best asset in the world. that's really going to separate uh money from government and allow people to truly transact the way they want to transact and and save money as well, right? Um so I I think it starts with building a really strong uh base um which which which we're doing at Plasma and then you'll see as that Bitcoin bridge is introduced um we're we're really going to bring people over. Um really to hone in on your question though, Rob, I I think uh you know in a few years we're going to see people hold two assets, stable coins and Bitcoin. And I think they're going to hold stable coins that they can transact in and they're going to hold Bitcoin that they can save money in and use as an asset that's going to

appreciate over time. >> Got it. There's strong inter interplay between those two. >> Yes. >> The the the separation between money and state I think is something that we we hear a lot about. We talk a lot about it's still very theoretical. In your words, like what does that look like in practice, right? Like we have a lot of combination. You know, there's a lot of factors that go into it. um maybe people don't really understand like the the ins and outs of it. What what does if we were to separate the two, what's the the point A where we are now to the point B end state that we're trying to achieve?

>> Yeah, great question. I think it starts with separating money from politics and money from from policies. So, we're even sort of seeing it now with with the Trump administration and and and and their approach to really forcing the Federal Reserve or trying to force the Federal Reserve to its lower interest rates. And you know, it might be good in the short term, might be bad in the long term. I, you know, I'll let everyone have their own opinion on that. But the fact that a single president on a four-year term can kind of dictate money the way they want just just speaks to the core of the issue. Um, so I think, you know, if we can start separating Bitcoin, uh, you know, it's the it's the truest form of money because it's separate from these policies in itself.

There's no one that governs it. There's no one that gets to control distribution rate of Bitcoin. There's no one that gets to control the underlying policies of it, right? It's it's it's a true autonomous currency. Um so it it takes away those policies and it takes away, you know, this cyclical four-year term you're seeing with presidents or eight-year term sometimes. Um that that really dictate people's lives. >> Yeah. Yeah. It is pretty crazy that that we just have Trump strongmanning JPAL right now, just publicly berating him. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not even JPL. you look down the the entire federal, you know, governor's board, we've we've seen him remove somebody and now there's a lawsuits going on there and and um it's quite interesting and quite fascinating.

Um my my general take on it, not to get into the politics of it, is um whether you support it or not, we we you know, this level of power is is really as to support. Um because, you know, you may be proTrump, but in four years of you know, if the Democrats elected, you've just given them a pathway to sort of do the same thing to enact their own policies. >> Yeah. Yeah. Totally agreed. just kind of uh zooming in on some of the more current events here. Uh recently there there was a pretty pretty insane uh liquidation spike on XPL, the plasma pre-market on Hyperlid. Uh Justin Sun, who I would consider somewhat of a competitor to Plasma at the largest scale. Like if I'm thinking about the bull case for Plasma here, I'm thinking that we that XPL and the chain overtakes

Tron at some point, right? Like I'm thinking like the amount of Tether transactions happening right on plasma should overtake Ethereum and overtake Tron. Like that's like where where we're trying to go. Justin Sun probably feels >> go Andy, not where we're trying to go. >> I'm going to ask you about your bull and bear case here shortly as well. But uh thinking about what Justin Sun is running in his mind seeing this happen from the council perspective, right? Like from the legal perspective. Now, I don't know what you can and can't talk about, but like when it comes to these type of types of situations, when you're managing uh community sentiment, when you're managing the legalities of pre-markets, of postmarkets, of mainet launches, like you have a different perspective than a lot of other people,

you know, when it comes to this this liquidation event or these kind of like >> weird gray area situations in in crypto markets from the legal perspective, how how do you view these now? And perhaps has your view on these types of situations changed due to the regulatory changes of the US? Maybe just walk us through how you think about these types of like crazy situations that happen in in crypto that seemingly don't happen elsewhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. Great question. I I can't speak too much on the specifics of XPL for for obvious reasons, but uh you know, I can tell you we we we at Plasma do a really good job of of not letting these things, you know, be a distraction to the work we we we want to do, which is, you know, overtake Ethereum,

overtake Tron, and and build the world's best payments network. Um, you know, but they're hard to ignore. They happen. Um, and and uh, you know, rumor says it was Justin Sun. I I've seen, you know, notes to the contrary of that. Um, the thing about these pre-markets, right, is they're highly manipulable. Um, and and and I think it speaks to some of, you know, maybe, you know, the the the underlying tech, um, and less about the token itself. Um, we saw whomever it was rotate from XPL to, uh, World Liberty Fant, right? And then sort of running the same playbook there. So, um, yeah, we we generally try to ignore it. It's it is hard to ignore. Um, you know, Justin, if you're out there trading XPL,

uh, you know, it is what it is. Um, let's just let's just keep an eye on how, you know, number of transactions on the network over the next year. Well, well, dude, that brings up a really good point though because today, and this is another good like legal type question that is not related to Plasma, but I think you you you'll have an opinion on. Uh, today World Liberty Fi decided to blacklist Justin Sun's address, locking $540 million or 540 million in unlocked tokens. So, they locked his unlocked tokens and 2.4 4 billion in lock tokens and say they believe an exchange has been using user tokens to sell and push down the price. Uh there's some comments saying from Olympia Crypto, you do not

dump on the president, the president dumps on you. Unstoppable crime meets immovable scammer. Kobe says question mark. Uh Mert put a a picture of Trump and says I was a businessman doing business. Um what's your take from the legal perspective on this? Like is is World Liberty Fi are they right to be locking tokens like you know in what in what permissionless in environment should we be able to allow locking of tokens in this open market? You know we all know Justin Sun, but what's your take from the legal perspective on this? Yeah, I mean I think this is the consequence of not thinking through um unlocking the tokens in the first place and sort of just just making a shotgun decision on

that because I know you know they they decided to unlock their tokens um recently. Um but no, I I I don't think it's good. Uh I think it speaks to centralization which you know if you if you look at the ethos of crypto, we are moving away from that. Um and it becomes a lot more complicated when it's the president of the United States. And uh I look forward to the Justin Sun verse pus lawsuit that'll be filed in the federal courts next week. >> Oh my goodness, man. >> Insane. >> Insane. >> Uh yeah, Justin's son. >> It just sets a weird precedent, you know? It's just like, oh, we're going to lock Justin Sun's tokens like this because >> it does. I mean this this this has happened in in the past with with with coins but again I think I think it

becomes a lot more complicated when it's when it's you know a project that's closely held to the highest elected official in office and you know probably the highest elected official in the world. So I I'm not sure how uh how this is going to play out but it'll be a fun one to watch. Introducing extended exclusively on Stark, a nextgen ps trading platform live today with 50 plus trading pairs from crypto to tradi. You get the best experience on chain today. Deposit in the community vault for attractive returns, EMV compatible, and engage in unified margin spot trading, lending, and per trading exclusively live at extended.app on Starknet today.

Cool. All right, let's let's revert back to plasma. You know, I I I did mention that I'm curious what your bull and bear case is. And I, you know, I genuinely think that we can get to a point where transaction volume and notional volume is going to be higher than Ethereum and Tron. Uh, you know, I think that's probably part of the endgame goal here. When you decided to join Plasma, what was your mental kind of thought process on like, okay, what is the bullcase here? What is the upside in terms of uh market dominance? And then you know maybe you thought through okay what if this doesn't work what is the bare case from your perspective what is the current plasma bull case and plasma bare case >> yeah I think in our in our bubble we we

we look at number of transactions but that's that's just the start for us I I want to um and the rest of the team wants to uh really be a a payment tool in everyone's pocket globally and uh you know through that we will surpass Ethereum in Tron uh just by the the pure distribution. Um so I mean my my bull case is that you're using plasma um and don't even know it. Um I mean how many how many times a day are you using checkout tools or or payments tools or underlying payments rails and and you're not even aware that you're using those?

Um Andy, how many how many coffees have you had today? You know, you mentioned iced coffee, >> bro. Me too. I've had like four. Um but you know that that's all happening on the same payments network and we don't even really know it as as a consumer. Um, so we we want plasma and and plasma will be the the rails of that happening. >> Okay. And then what is your bare case >> that that Yeah, there there there is no barecase uh for me. Um I'm super bullish on stable coins um from both you know a consumer and and and policy perspective.

Um, I mean the kind of actually, you know, kind of to tie back to the earlier conversation, the the the bare case is is a general crypto bear case and and and and my concern is that a lot of the stuff that's happening in the current market, um, you know, when we have a new, you know, electorate in 2028, uh, kind of gets flipped over with a little bit more too much regulation, you know. Um, so I wouldn't say it's plasma specific bear case, but I think it's more of a general crypto bare case. Mhm. And and this administration had the Genius Act. Obviously, that kind of opened the floodgates for stable coins. Secretary of the Treasury Bessant has said publicly that he wants three trillion in stable coins circulating.

>> He he he's even saying trillions, >> three trillion by 2028. and how he wants to basically he wants to issue the government debt in stable coins or at least have stable coin uh issuers purchase this debt, hold it on their balance sheet uh to to then deploy these stable coins. How much does the uh strategy coming from the treasury impact the strategy at Plasma and and is there a working relationship? What kind of interplay do you have there? >> Yeah, I mean we're talking to regulators around the world, uh policy makers around the world. Um, for us, I I I think that, you know, the Treasury is is a really strong signal. I think Genius is obviously amazing for the the space, and I'm really excited about the market

structure bill that'll be coming out, uh, you know, and and playing through the House. Um, I would caution that this is just the foundation there. There's still a lot of work to do. There are active lobbying groups out there that are lobbying, you know, congressmen, congresswoman very hard right now. Um, you know, American Bank Association being one of them. They're filing letters to to applicable senators weekly basically. Uh this this week it's about uh oh the yield loophole that some exchanges are you know are um introducing but you know they were also the ones who fought against allowing yields through the stable bills right so it's just going to be a constant battle.

Um, I also think Besset and Treasury, they're a strong signal for the rest of the world is going. Uh, we're not necessarily focused on on the Western market as much, right? We really care about emerging markets. So, some of the conversations that I've had that are really interesting lately are with policy makers in Turkey, um policy makers in the UAE. One really interesting Syria, um you know, places Egypt, places that, you know, people aren't really thinking about, but these jurisdictions take a strong signal from, you know, what the US is going to be doing.

>> Yeah. And they they receive a lot of the benefit of stable coins, just access to dollars, access to dollar denominated yields, these types of things. And so I've noticed that you guys have started to promote some of the plasma ecosystem a bit. There's been some some Twitter accounts created for lending markets, for yield products, for uh payment products, consumer apps. Um and I imagine these will be tightly integrated with the network such that right there's a there's an ideal world here where uh we have the plasma chain users globally have a plasma wallet account. they can spend their money directly at, you know, a uh point of sale systems uh around the world without having to have that money go in their bank account, some sort of uh integration from, you know, the

plasma chain like like that last mile thing has is always the conversation about uh you know, kind of stable chains. Is there is there a development within the plasma ecosystem around yield products around uh POSOS products around um you know vaults these types of things like what has been the development such that it's not just a chain for payments but it's like a I can like live my entire financial uh you know kind of setup on chain there. >> Yeah. Andy I don't know if you've bugged our offices but this is this is a great question and something we're we're uh we're often thinking about. Um, okay. I, you know, we we view stable coin usage in in four, right? Save, spend, send, and earn.

>> So, it's it's not just spending, right? Like, a lot of people around the world hold stable coins so they can they can save money because they may be living in an area with a deflationary asset. A lot of people send money back home. Uh, and then the one you just hit on, which I'm very excited about, is is Earn. Um, so I actually saw you have son on the show next uh, and I was really excited to see his name pop up and and really shout out to Veta. They've been an amazing partner to work with for us. Uh they just also hired a rockstar GC. Um and you know, I'm excited to continue that relationship with them and and there'll definitely be some stuff coming out. Um I can't share too much obviously, but uh those are the four categories that we're thinking about and the products being

built on top of the chain reflect those four categories. Um also, you touched on ecosystem. Uh really want to give a shout out to the plasma ecosystem team. Uh, I've worked across a lot of a lot of teams and and they're just they're working their butts off 247 to get the best blue chip partners launching on plasma which is going to be great for distribution on our on our network. >> Yeah, I saw a curve and then uh others as well as native uh platforms as well. >> Yeah, it's going to be a really really fun network to play on. Yeah. >> Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Um Yeah, Rob.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, I I'm just trying to think through like what what this endgame looks like once we have all these stable coins come on chain. Uh the Treasury is literally printing T bills and they're going almost directly to these stable coin issuers. The banking lobby is going to have to bend the knee at a certain point, right? Like they're they're continuing they're fighting this tooth and nail, but what happens once those banks sort of accept the eventual reality? It's not like they're going to just lose deposits, right? Those deposits end up on chain. So, could you walk us through like how you see that progression happening?

>> Yeah, I think it's going to happen very quick. Um, we've already seen JP Morgan, City Bank introduce, you know, internal programs. I'm having conversations with with some of those people in those programs. Um, and I think, you know, we're we're going to look six months down the road and the landscape's going to look totally different from today. Um, the the the positive point is really interesting. So as as we know and you know unlike many other banking systems around the world the the deposit system actually is very important in America. Um and that is you know something the American banking association has lobbyed for. But where they get wrong is that those deposits don't need to live in bank accounts. They can live on chain.

>> Yeah. >> Um and like you and I aren't going to know that as consumers but like we're going to have access to really cool yield programs possibly by VETA. Um we're gonna you know through our bank accounts someday and it's it's going to be very cool. Um, but I agree with you, Robbie. They're going to have to bend the knee. >> Yeah. >> And And so they eventually bring their assets onchain. Um, you you've said you've worked with some of these guys and and kind of seen their internal programs that they have running. Are are they running back this 2018 2019 permissioned blockchain uh sort of like a walled garden setup where they're going to have their own L1 call it?

they're going to have their own yield products or is there now with the the growth of Ethereum and and Plasma these other chains is there going to be a push to make these more of a public chain and become composable with the rest of the ecosystem? >> Yeah, I think that's going to be largely driven by by regulation uh to be honest. So, I had a conversation with a colleague today. Um, a lot of these systems will probably be closed at first and that's just a nature of the KYC AML rules that a lot of these banks are subject to. So I think as an industry we could you know and and a lot of us are doing it. Um but we we we could go to the regulators and and discuss you know why the public blockchains are better than these permission networks in many

ways. Um uh but I think we'll see them as closed networks to to begin with which is you know sort of unfortunate. Um we just need to do better as as an ecosystem. >> Just just a matter of time before they bend the knee again. The the last one the last kind of followup that I have for you on this is that it you know there's a lot that we have done genius act there's clarity act there's all these things that have been been passed through but there's still a lot of work to go if you were council for the SEC or you know the US government like what would be some of the regulations that you would try to push through or you would recommend to lawmakers?

>> Yeah actually that's a great question and a big one that we just dealt with. Um, so as you guys know, we just raised $50 million through our public ICO. We have $373 million. Yeah, thank you. We had $373 million in committed funds. Um, all of those purchasers were fully KY3 KYC through Sonar, uh, which is Echko's new new product. Um, and uh, but one one of the things about that sale, right, is is we still had to comply with rigs and rig D. Um, so I I think there's a lot of US purchasers that are sort of shut out from the investment uh ecosystem because of of regggd. Um, now now the SEC just put out a list today of thing rules they're going to be looking at. I haven't had a chance to dive into that.

I quickly looked at it and didn't see regggd on there. Um, but I that's probably one of the first rules I would look at is, you know, access to to more investments for for all consumers. >> So regggd is just the accredited investor rule. >> It's the accredited investor rule. Yeah. I have to have a certain net worth or you know particular license um or you know make a certain amount of money per year to participate. Um and that's just a bad test right it just it just it just blocks people out participating in in in cool ecosystems. So, Jacob, when you're looking at uh dealing with other other um you know, let's say non-crypto banks and uh you know, uh shops in Turkey and consumers in Buenosarees and

all over, right? They're not really operating in the same lens as you know, we are in, let's just call it like the Western world. like what matters to them from a a regulatory or legal perspective and like what legal hurdles are you having to go through to get things done in like you know in the global setting? Uh you know is it is it new challenges for you stuff that you have experience in like just curious like what kind of like hurdles you're having to go through to get things done globally. >> Great question. Um, I'm spending a lot of my time these days focused on payments laws. Uh, not just in the US but but globally. Um, you know, Mika, you know, the CASP rules in the EU, um, a lot a lot in South America. So, I'm

I'm learning to navigate that, which has been a really fun and new challenge as general counsel to to plasma. Um, and I think in in these jurisdictions, um, they they don't a lot of these just don't have regulations, right? I mean like some of the they have really early and young banking systems. They have they don't have an SEC uh per se. Um so so for us it's it's really about educating a lot of the the vendors and people we want to work across from about you know why crypto can be a good solution for what they need for their own consumers in their regions.

>> So so is it is it easier then to get stuff done? >> Uh it is but it's it's it's different right? It's it's just a different sort of education. you know what I mean some of these conversations is like what is a stable coin um right of course you know and and why plasma um which has been a lot of fun I think oftentimes we we get in the weeds of what we do and it's sometimes it's good to take a step back and and realize there's >> honestly probably seven billion people who who don't know that you know who don't know about crypto um and so a lot of this is just you know education on why plasma will be the payments network over the next five years it's going to be the fastest growing >> yeah and and bullish.

>> You know, a big part of this uh I I wanted to ask and and we may be running running running short on time here, but uh you guys have a relationship with Tether. Um this is a big part of your strategy. Um you know, maybe there are things you can share, maybe there's things that you can't, but I'm just curious like how that relationship has evolved and generally why it's an important piece to Plasma's strategy, why you guys chose to go with Tether versus another stable coin. H how do you see uh Plasma and Tether working together forward going forward to really champion stable coins across emerging markets?

>> I mean Tether has the best distribution of any asset in the world. Uh 400 million people hold Tether. Uh they use Tether daily. They hold Tether to save money. Um the relationship with them is is very strong. Um they've been a great resource for us both on the business and and policy and legal side. Um, so we'll continue to to, you know, to to work with them and, uh, we have some stuff in the hopper that, you know, obviously I I can't discuss. >> And in the hopper, when mainet, boys and girls, we've got XPL premarket, Justin Sun or somebody's over here manipulating it. We got crazy crazy hype on this one.

>> Um, Jacob, what is the next what's the next six weeks look like for you guys? I I know you guys are slammed in London in the office just absolutely dialed. Um what's what's the next six weeks look like? >> Yeah. Uh mainet is what we're focused on. We're heads down. Um I think for a lot of companies uh mainet is the crescendo of what they build. It's their product for us. It's the platform for what we're going to build next. Um so we got to get that out which uh you know I'm actually my laptop is sitting on a pack of Celsius right now. Uh which I'll be drinking one of these after this. Um we'll get that out and that's go time, right? That's that's the time we, you know, we we we've got the platform we can build on and you'll start to see

some of the really cool stuff that that, you know, I've been alluding to. >> Four coffees, a pack of Celsius, and a fresh crew neck. >> Yes, sir. I need one of those. >> That's what you get when you go to the plasma office. >> That's right. Yes, sir. >> Jacob, man, I appreciate your time. Thanks for joining. It was a pleasure to meet you. Look forward to hanging out one day in London or somewhere around in a in a conference, learning some more about the legal side of the world. don't spend much time there, but uh definitely definitely some fun insights and and yeah, just appreciate you bearing with our curiosities. They are constantly evolving.

>> Fun. Yeah, this has been awesome. Uh really great to meet you guys. Uh happy to hop on anytime and and chat legal. Um but I gotta go launch mainet now. >> Good luck, sir. Shal.