Permissionless II Takeaways: LayerZero & Google, Institutions, Gaming, L2 Wars

Transcript

all right so I'm pushing back pushing back on all comments here um yes you know having localized fee markets on L2 is cool but in my opinion it's somewhat worthless because you can have application specific Roll-Ups you're not really fighting congestion on your roll up anyways if you launch something really cool on arbitrum go spin it up into an L3 what's up everyone welcome back to another episode of zero X research before we dive into today's episode we want to give a quick word from our sponsor hexins the most hardcore security team in web3 pioneering and ZK and novel cryptography hexins is trusted by two one protocols like polygon including their work on their ZK VM mantle risk zero Lido one-inch new bank and more I hope some of you guys got to

go stop by their booth at permissionless really fun team and got to learn more about what they do we will mention uh hexins and what they're all about a little bit more later in the episode today is September 18th and we're changing it up a little bit today actually and doing an analyst only episode recap of permissionless 2. it was a lot of fun getting to meet a lot of you guys down there is uh honestly kind of surreal having people come up to us and say no I know you guys from Xerox research so thanks for doing that for sure um and actually we're going to be changing up the format of the podcast a little bit and doing analyst episodes separate from the actual interview so be sure to let us know what you think of that format in the comments but any

anyways Ren maybe I can kick it over to you to kick us off on the permissionless recap yeah sure so for me it was my first time in Austin Texas definitely not used to the heat um but overall I think permission this was a great conference you know it's not the easiest environment to host a conference in we're in the US which doesn't have the most favorable regulatory environment we're deep deep in the middle of a bear market and you know there's conferences all around the world such as like UCC career blockchain week token 2049 that uh crypto participants have to choose between but all in all I think permission Institute was fantastic you know you had a good mix of sort of very end of weeds researchers protocol desks institutional

we had a few um senators or congress people I don't know the differences I'm not American um and it was just a very high quality and high signal conference uh compared to whatever your experience in the blue market right in the blue Market it feels like you go to a side event the room is packed with probably realistically 500 people if you is I just just trying to like shoot it off and say hi to everyone every five seconds and say hey I work at blah blah blah uh what do you do and like if you want to move on you got to move on because there's so many people to talk to but I felt like the conversations I had during permission this were a lot more slower pace and in a better sense right I really got to understand people really got to

understand why they're here what they're working on what they're interested in and obviously like everyone that's still here at this stage of the market is deeply deeply passionate about crypto and that was the overall Vibe I was getting everyone here is very passionate they're very interested in whatever dude they're doing even if that's running a fun building a protocol building a product or service everyone is here for a reason and they know why they're here right um and tying this to one of the opening speeches that they had at permission that's by Eric Voorhees right I think he made it very clear why he's in this industry there's a quote uh there was a quote from a speech where he say to such people we owe nothing but to humanity we owe much that

is why we're here and crypto is our rebellion and I think on one hand I definitely agree with that right I feel like a lot of people are sick with the status quo whether you're living in a first world country such as America or any emerging economy such as for example Venezuela a lot of people are sick of the status quo the systems the industries the regulation that's been put in place and I think people are fed up you know definitely people have gotten more fed up probably due to just back-breaking inflation over the past year like eggs and milk are a lot more expensive than what they used to be and that definitely makes me mad um But Eric Voorhees made the point that we basically live like farm animals you

know perhaps I wouldn't go so far to say that we all live like in a complete gutter uh we live like farm animals we're completely on at the wave of like Regulators of and politicians at least not within like the U.S or other study more developed countries but I think that that uh opening keynote he gave got me sufficiently energized again as to why I'm in crypto you know definitely for like the past few months I mean like oh my God please just stop talking about like share sequences roll-offs like mistaking I don't really care anymore you know about that Eric Voorhees which really made me come back there's definitely been like people on the other end of the spectrum

that when you know I don't think crypto should be a complete rejection of democracy you know code isn't better than law you know there should still be systems in face and I I completely agree with that right I think a lot of people in crypto sort of have these extreme views and we always like to like put ourselves on the extreme ends of the spectrum you know is that a food centralization or food decentralization I don't want any of this cd5 uh stuff but I think there's always a middle ground for everything to be honest and I think for crypto is the fact of the matter that that middle ground between whatever institutions or environment or society structure we have today and crypto that middle ground is still better than whatever the status quo is

um and yeah that's a brief takeaway of permissionless or so back I love to hear that the keynote got you fired up you know that's I hope that was part of the intend and if not that's certainly one of the goals it achieved without a doubt Eric Voorhees the man I I got into crypto really got into the weeds of crypto through Thor chain and he was uh he did shapeshift has worked very closely with Thor tune over the past so it's cool to kind of like see that that Ark in me knowing him to ask some dude who is involved in Thor chain uh to now be giving a keynote permission list of course he's far more important than all of that but uh it was just cool yeah I really I liked the sentiment he was driving home of just like kind of

trying to reinvigorate repassion or drive passion into people about why his space is important um but yeah no I think I agree largely with a lot of your takeaways too like the average conversation I had I walked away being like damn like that was that was a great conversation it was like a lot less people asking about I'm not trying to throw any shade here but there's way fewer uh what do you think about cardanos or what do you think about stellars and a lot more like all right do you actually think a single shot blockchain is is the future compared to maybe like uh you know ethereum's approach or the cosmos approach like it was like super in the weeds questions about like things we don't have answers to and we're like actively trying to figure out not just asking questions about the protocols

that have the best marketing campaign so that was kind of like my my tldr yeah I gotta say I also had a lot of conversations about like what's the best way to scale a blockchain you know I talked to people who were I think majority of the people I talked to are probably Layer Two Maxis everyone's excited for what they think is this incoming layer 2 narrative but I talked to many people who are like you know what do you think about a monolithic chain with a localized V market like Solana and you know plenty that we're talking about app specific chains and such as cosmos or you know plenty of other Solutions as well and it's really cool having those conversations because you know even within our own team we have lots of different opinions on what's the correct solution at the end of the day they're they're all

potentially viable ways to scale blockchains and uh it's really cool seeing the space be in this like you know such Niche Niche times where everyone's kind of uh very interesting and looking at the the things that I think are you know the most important to how we how we proceed and grow the space so that we can support billions of users in the future yeah I think that really leans into the fact that that was kind of one an overarching theme of just talking to people in the conference was uh maybe the ethereum-centric uh world view if you will it's just not as dominant anymore and you know I feel like a lot of people came into crypto got comfortable with ethereum and that's how they learned about like account based blockchains or smart contracts as a whole so it's kind of like you're starting off point uh and then we do

tend to tribalize how we think about blockchains and so you kind of become like an eth maxi and then it takes like a hurdle point to be like okay well you know maybe this Cosmos ecosystem is cool maybe this Solana ecosystem is cool um and now it's you know kind of ossifying into more of like ideological approaches you know we talk a lot about on this podcast about how ethereum's end goal is really not too dissimilar from the Costco's ecosystems and Gulch it's a very different way of getting there and you know we're kind of starting to see that it's like I mean I I even Westy who's been a long time just like etha's the best solution eth is the best solution yes there's other viable ways but eth is still the best solution he even cracked and he was like damn like I think there's like three really good

ways of scaling a blockchain and like hitting critical mass and you know I think they'll all probably work over the long term but the question is you know how do you differentiate at that point or um does being first really matter here because I tend to think yes like the first ecosystem to really bring on that uh that game changing application or the game changing amount of users in any capacity will probably at least think they won but it'll be tough to say if they actually won man I gotta say one of the craziest conversations for me was late in the night me and you were chatting about Bitcoin and you know I've always been a big fan of Bitcoin it's what got me into this space and yeah I think you've probably never been a fan of Bitcoin and I walked away from the conversation

being a little more bearish Bitcoin I remember the next day you were like I actually you know see some of your points about why maybe Bitcoin could be successful in the future so it's it's pretty crazy that you know there's so many topical things to chat about and I gotta say that one that one hit pretty hard okay okay hold on I gotta I gotta set the record straight here I am it was a first a fan of Bitcoin but yes like I just see the fee the fee model as as like a an unsolved issue um that increasing number of people are like okay like this is an issue we have to solve of course there's like always the hardcore camp in any protocol or really any ideology period uh that's like no we have to never change like that's hardcore ethos um but yeah I just think the fee model

is broken and something needs to be done about it and that's not to say something won't be done about it but I think one of the points you mentioned was like yeah well ethereum hasn't solved scalability and that's just like maybe take a step back and I was like yeah like we have an unsolved problem too and over in smart contract land um and so that was like okay you know we're we're still actively solving things but I will say like there just doesn't seem to be an a light at the end of the tunnel for the Bitcoin fee model problem like I think this is the last bullish happening I really do and then it starts to become all eyes on how do we fix this problem which is probably a good thing because we do need that problem solved it's interesting that there's this drive

chain narrative forming it's like super nascent and early stage but you know it seems to actually be getting a lot of support from the you know Bitcoin Maxis but I think more than Bitcoin Max he's outside from core contributors like the ones who have the most influence on the protocol obviously at the end of the day no single entity has a ton of influence but you know if you get the Bitcoin core team and a lot of the loud voices in the ecosystem support something at least at least has a chance at maybe being a future and it seems that this drive chain idea is something that's uh maybe getting a little bit of traction I'm honestly not an expert on it but it seems like a potential solution where you could have all these layer twos like maybe one of them's even an evm or a

smart contact platform and they drive a little bit of value back to the Bitcoin fee Network in the same way that I guess side chains and layer twos do and I think it's interesting um also like maybe in the future people look at Bitcoin as money instead of digital gold like they do today and that could drive some value to it but you made a lot of good points as to you know like why would you ever bet on bitcoin like people are going to use stable coins for that narrative and and uh I definitely walked out of that conversation feeling a little more embarrassed than I did before not that I'm bearish Bitcoin yeah it's just like pumping out 25 million dollars of of security incentives every single day two minors and not two token holders so it's it's true to like it's more than just

dilution it's a cost to the network it's a tough one it's a tough Hill to climb and if even if you look at uh ordinals which still have a large number of transaction volume but uh just the fees aren't there anymore is much less demand to get them included in the next block um the peak of the ordinal type uh generated seven uh in a single day generated about 17 or so million dollars of transaction fees and so like okay even in the peak of this uh you know definitely this speculative bubble yeah 17.79 million dollars of transaction fees in that specific day um May 8th there was about 24 million dollars of Bitcoin issuing so it's still just like an enormous amount of money that is being pumped out of Bitcoin I

want to give a quick shout out to hexins as we explore today's blockchain landscape let's take a moment to recognize them as a premier cyber security provider in web 3. hexins is trusted by tier one projects like polygon including a Security review on their new polygon ZK evm mantle risk zero Lido one inch new bank and more get a deep dive into your technology staff but the most comprehensive analysis in cyber security Consulting hexins not only uses widely known methodologies and flows but discovers and introduces new ones on a day-to-day basis with over 55 billion dollars secured they cover everything from Smart contracts to blockchain to web 2 pen tests yeah there's been nearly seven billion dollars of total value hacked in crypto's nascent history so it's safe to

say your team has a lot on the line don't skimp out take your security seriously and reach out to hexins don't forget to mention Xerox research for a free web 2 pen test with your partnership and reach out to hexins at hexins.io find them in the links in the show notes or reach out to them at permissionless they'll be at Booth 832 but without further Ado let's get back to today's episode roping this back into the conference so I mean it was in Texas and I think it was I I can't I think it was Riot I'm not sure I could be wrong there but they made like 32 million dollars in a month just selling electricity back to the grid and while we were there they were like hey be careful of power outages apparently there's like a water boil advisory Etc so I mean there is one bull case for for

Bitcoin tying into the real world that might be a stretch but nonetheless I think the bigger topic here and take away from permissionless is that no one was actually talking about Bitcoin like this is just our own conversations our own curiosity but I didn't see a single side conversation happening trying to solve the Bitcoin fee problem and I mean I think that speaks volume on its own good save Matt Matt and I were about to turn this entire podcast into Bitcoin versus smart contracts it's crazy because you're right there wasn't a single conversation at the conference about Bitcoin this was like you know five beers deep at midnight between Dan and I just arguing out like you're old you know year old arguments at the conference you know I saw a lot of conversations about ethereum about Cosmos about Solana and the one other

thing that kept coming up is like you know there's a lot of institutional and there's a lot of Institutions there are people from you know things like KPMG ey some of the banks things of that nature so a like one takeaway was the institutions are here like you know institutions aren't coming they're here uh maybe their teams are only five or ten or up to at most 50 people so you know they're a lot of room to grow but they are here they're interested and they weren't even more than what I was having these conversations with people like this some of them were interested in you know what they call public blockchains which is something that I have an issue with because these are just blockchains like there's no it's usually called the public blockchains they're just blockchains anyways they're also interested in like this idea of

private infrastructure um you know creating new technology that particularly supports their stack and their business rather than use using you know ethereum and things like that so I thought that was something interesting and you know I had a lot of pushback against it but it did keep coming up so I thought it was worth mentioning yeah shout out Citigroup actually today we saw that news of them doing a pilot program with a private blockchain basically for 24 7 uh cross-border payments and financial Primitives that anyone in their Network can actually access but I think this kind of ties back to the Voorhees speech that we started with to be completely honest because like why would you not want companies innovating this way like I get you hate the notion of a private blockchain but like I don't think anyone really knows the true use case for

blockchains today and like yes you can argue like I mean we're arguing over whether Bitcoin is going to be around you know in 20 years considering the fee problem becomes such a big problem here pretty soon so I think I'd rather have entities tackling this problem from every angle even if it is in a Walled Garden environment just so we can actually figure out like where we fit in in the world and what the end state is like I think there's so many applications for this stuff and I'd rather have everyone working on it than just saying nah we want to completely leave out any type of notion of the ethos that doesn't fall with like the original ideals of crypto this was something that I asked during a panel I moderated so the panel that I moderated was the evolution of centralized

exchanges and I asked all of my parents one from Gemini one from Kraken one from coinbase and one from okx what are institutions right because I feel like us in crypto we always like to say oh the institutions are coming the institutions are coming whenever a spot BTC or if ETF gets approved the institutions will come but I I don't think a lot of us have a single clue what institution reading means and to be honest that was the same answer that I got at the panel right institutions are so wide-ranging it can it can include central banks it could include sort of chat fire institutions such as like investment Banks or just traditional Banks it can include Fortune 500

companies and I think one interesting statistic that Greg from coinbase pointed out was that they had like quite a lot of institutional demand from Fortune 500 companies so not Financial companies just like standard big old like American companies and they had a lot of interest from them in integrating and I got a custody or like being interested in crypto as a whole or blockchain right and you see that more and more over the past year right for example like Shopify or sorry Visa integrating with like uscc and salana and using Solana as a settlement there and also for example like circles wallet as a service uh partnering with grab um

for those that don't know gab is one of the largest super apps in Southeast Asia you know it's like uber Uber Eats payments and like 10 different other things all in one app it's basically like the WeChat but for Southeast Asia without the messaging functionalities and that partnership was very bullish right um there were like vouchers that you would be able to use from day one you got nfts it wasn't one another one of those like just Partnerships that just had no purpose to it um other than for a brand namesake for example like Microsoft and an AI like utility not gonna name names here but it feels like we're definitely seeing a lot more institutional adoption right especially

in the D5 space too for example layer 0 made a big announcement that they were gonna integrate Google Cloud um as a default Oracle so when I first heard the news that Google would be doing something with player zero I wasn't I wasn't very sure what it would be my gut feeling was that it would be Google running the relayer since that's kind of like the less demanding perhaps from like a blockchain or like crypto Economic Security role perspective of uh between the Oracle and every layer but then Google cloud is Now the default Oracle for layer 0 and they replace chain link um to me that was like really really

really big news that wasn't talked about enough first of all because it's Now the default Oracle chaining got pushed out for Google Cloud to come in and I feel like that should take a lot of people in crypto by shock actually um chain link you know it's like a decentralized Oracle Network Quest Google cloud is very very far from decentralized it's just like a bunch of data servers probably 100 control by Google and there's even worked with at Google in order to set up like all of the infrastructure they need in order to act as an Oracle and trophy told it was cool when I first heard it but I'm not sure how I feel about it after thinking a bit about it I asked that there's you guys what's like

the security model behind Google Cloud running the default Oracle and their answer was Google is a one trillion dollar big tech company they're not gonna rug you but then internally I'm thinking if Google Cloud rocks layer zero no asset manager even knows what layer 0 is none of them are going to go out there and go oh I'm gonna sell my Google Holdings on my portfolio that's just not gonna happen but also on one hand it just seems like Google Cloud running the default Oracle is like social consensus on steroids you know like fake Tech social consensus and at that point like I'm not really sure what the point of like using an institution for the blockchain is

there's like a whole there's like a whole other argument here of like how like crypto's been trending towards like just moving stuff off chain um not voting to do anything on chain and sort of like just giving up on decentralization but that's that's an entirely argument so as far as like institutions as a whole sorry for going slightly off topic I definitely agree institutions are coming there's a lot more that happens behind the scenes than we know right there's these Consulting companies there's these auditing companies there's these finance companies who all do things behind the scenes we just never hear about it right these guys are under guys that are spending like three hours of the day on Twitter posting about what they do they just do stuff in the background helping companies sort of form blockchain Frameworks helping incorporate in these

um helping Incorporated crypto into the sort of like the daily operational or logistical needs um it just happens very very very behind the scenes but I think we all got a taste of that during permission this which is very good yeah a couple things on that run so um backing up to the usdc part yes there was a usdc in Shopify integration there was also the beam and Visa integration leveraging usdc there was also the Visa and Solana integration leveraging usdc there's also the circle and coinbase deal uh bringing kind of like pushing out usdc to the cosmos ecosystem through Noble and more to more eth l2s including bass uh coinbase is L2 and quite honestly most importantly was the sap

note integration integration I know you mentioned Citibank as well earlier and that was super interesting because they're kind of doing the same thing right allowing their existing clients to and they use crossed chain payments through usdc like that is that is what institutional adoption looks like full stop if people can use their existing service providers and send meaningful value transactions using usdc and it's not going to be me and you most likely well I think that's part of an adoption about what institutional adoption looks like is these Fortune 500 companies using this technology so that's why I think it is insanely exciting to see Banks like City and uh you know payment

processors like visa and big companies like uh sap that are already integrated into a majority of these Fortune 500 companies really pushing this deck forward on the layer zero stuff can you run us through what like the you know super high level because obviously this could be an entire podcast but like the relayer versus the Oracle they use this to this two uh bifurcated security model can you just like run us through that real quick and I guess my ultimate question is here like does that mean that Google cloud is running a full node for every layer zero supported chain yeah so layer 0 is a costume security marketplace right there's a bunch of different security providers for example chain link and now Google cloud and

basically how it works is that there's two entities that facilitate this cross chain General message passing or whatever you want to call it the first is the Oracle and the second is the relayer the Oracle is in charge of retrieving blockheaders more often than not you have to run a full node and the relayer the relayer is in charge of sort of fetching a transaction identifier proof and then providing that to the end point um basically the Oracle feeds the block header to the end point the off chain sorry the relayer feeds a transaction identifier a transaction identifier proof and the message and sort of when these two things

gets sent to the end point and they match each other then the message is unlocked and whatever transaction that needs to be executed gets executed and so I actually asked um whether like how did Google set this up right um and the answer I got was that their zero was very very involved in helping Google set up like everything they need in order to run an oracle I also asked um someone I can't remember who is so is Google running like a full node for every layer 0 supported chain which I think as of today stands at around like 32 or 34.

and I think the answer I got was no which left me a little bit confused because to my understanding you need to run a full node in order to put a block header from a blockchain and so I'm not really sure what's happening behind the scenes and I think that's another thing that left me a bit concerned right um layer 0 runs one of the default relayers for layer 0 and now Google Cloud are running an oracle service that was sort of built by later zero or layers you definitely had like a very very involved role in helping Google Cloud be able to achieve like whatever they need to do as an oracle and so the whole security model of layer

0 is that these two rows the relayer and Oracle are completely distinct from each other right only if both of these collude with each other then like you can do something malicious with player zero but now it seems pretty tightly integrated especially with the fact that this partnership has been one year or so in the making um but yeah that's like if we've announcer that there is a zero security model they gave out great swag so I'm probably not going to complain that much but just use Fe you know like I feel like I've been moving a lot of stuff off chain uh whether that's like execution or like order matching or whatever especially in the realm of D5 and this kind of feels like something

similar you know it kind of feels like we're just giving up on decentralization a little bit um but it is also very cool that Google Cloud was wanting to do a like quite frankly like a huge partnership with a crushing Bridge like there's your you know it's quite rare that you get such a significant partnership for my big tech company in crypto and it definitely puts us on the radar I think I would trust Google as a company over like the three or five multi-sig that controls chain link you know maybe that's a hot take but at the end of the day I don't I don't think Google's probably four of nine four of nine four of nine sorry that might be worse actually no it's better um and also it's crazy how into crypto Google has got in there gcp has become

Google's become a a competitor to Alchemy and you know providing the like archival node data to those that need it for ethereum so I think they're pretty sophisticated at this point I'm sure you know at the end of the day they're still getting into it I'm sure helped them set it up but I wouldn't worry too much about you know Google being controlled by layer zero in in their Oracle Endeavors um I think they're you know I think they're for lack of better I think they're full steam ahead into uh crypto and really trying to you know be in the space and it's really really cool to see and you know I guess that is an example of an institution in crypto at the end of the day I think these types of Partnerships are way cooler than the institutions that everyone else wants to

come into crypto which would be you know the endowments and people that are quote unquote coming to buy our bags I would actually rather see this I'd rather see like infrastructure that would help you know the space become more efficient and better and I think that's you know what's happening uh but yeah that's just my take I think it's worth mentioning too that uh it's just the default Oracle provider so you can still configure the Oracle of your choice if you'd like you could do three if you want and then take a median so that way if either one of them goes down like I think really the big take home like thing to get out of this is just like Google cloud is partnering with the web3 company and they're putting the reputation on the line in the process of it so I agree

with Matt I think that's pretty huge yeah I like this breakdown of like what is an institution right it's like you almost have like financial institutions and then I don't know if the right word here is like consumer institutions but it might honestly just be non-financial institutions but um the financial institutions are definitely coming as well I think the ETFs make this super super easy I had a panel with uh John Woo from avalab Stan Lowe from qcp capital and Matt Hogan from bitwise and and that's obviously something we talked greatly about was what is the ETF coming actually mean and what it really means is lower barriers to entry for family offices Ras Capital allocators to get into this space right for those people it's pretty hard to get

a coinbase account or a coinbase custody account or a coinbase pro whatever it may be that they need it's not just you know downloading the app and opening it it's getting it past compliance it's getting comfortable with you're getting your clients comfortable with you using this new software Service uh to hold their value in it's it's a much much more than you know the download from the App Store store and submitting your kyc it's it's a process and internal compliance is a total to hurdle so what these ETFs do is put the ability to allocate into the space directly on the Bloomberg terminal or whatever allocation software that they're already using right so the inflows are expected to be great because the demand is increasingly great

um and anyone who's listening to a lot of Xerox research knows we're a big fan of bitwise and Matt Hogan and Ryan Rasmussen as well and they've come on the show a few times and every time we ask them where is the institutional mindset Financial institutional mindset with with crypto because it feels like you know a year even just a year and a half ago it was like all right one percent of the portfolio and we'll put it in Bitcoin then maybe like six months ago it was like okay this ethereum thing it sounds pretty interesting still one percent of the portfolio but we'll cut us like we're gonna cut a sliver off of that and put it into eth and then now it's like all right well internally within the industry were always talking about how you know eth is taking steak teeth is this like cash flow generating

asset it's super attractive especially with ethereum it's not just you know earning new eth on your East deposits and kind of that inflationary reward mechanism you're actually getting this real yield concept through Mev uh through Med boost and priority fees through transaction volume so like actually earning yield on your on your asset and that's like the super attractive thing we always talk about it and every time I ask Matt Hogan I'm like where are we on the stake teeth are they interested yet and they go look it's still one percent of the portfolio if you're using if that's your allocation approach you either want to make it double it and make it two percent or be okay with it going to zero percent earning another three to five percent on that allocation is just totally uninteresting which I always think is a

really interesting thing so we're not quite there that's kind of where we are on the risk curve so all of us go out and buy these D5 tokens that's where the financial institutions are sitting and I always think that's a good sentiment check yeah definitely agree with that another interesting I guess conversation throughout the conference that just came up constantly was shared sequencing especially given the uh espresso partnership with with arbitrum and I actually had the uh the privilege of speaking with Stephen goldfighter the uh the founder of arbitrum and he was just talking about how wrong people have this this debate in general he's like everyone thinks it's about decentralization but really like it comes down to Mev as well it's like do you want to create batch auctions and basically internalize this Meb or are

you trying to just do fifo and mitigate the Mev altogether to improve the user experience and he was saying like yes decentralization is part of this but then when you decentralize the sequence or you likely create more centralized Parts uh in the system so you know it's not like all right decentralize the sequencer we can we can stop here we're all good now we won um so there was just a lot of interesting takes uh on the sequencing space but I do think the espresso Partnerships that we've seen over the past you know couple months are pretty huge because I feel like a shared sequencer network doesn't actually work unless all the l2s opt in to create kind of those Network effects and and value cruel just for the entire ecosystem so now it's starting to become not you know are you doing an espresso test net

deployment it's more like oh you're not doing an espresso test net deployment so I found that super interesting as well one of the most interesting conversations I had was with Stephen and Pat Patrick's the Arboretum foundation and Stephen of the off chain Labs about what is Mev so like at the end of the day like okay we can all probably agree that sandwich attacks are uh have victims right so like maybe malicious or bad for the network or for the user experience maybe more so than the network because that would be debatable but what about backgrounding what about you know just taking a a swap and after it goes through arbitraging it versus another versus another domain versus Finance or a different exchange or whatever it's like well those are very

different things like backgrounding is probably not bad for the user um whereas of course like uh sandwich attack that makes the users price execution price worse is probably bad for the user and then we've like all these new types of things people call mev2 like if you look at friendtech there's all these smart contract Bots out there they're sniping newly created accounts so not paying for ordering which is what traditional MAV does but you know we're still calling it map I think it's like we need better definitions of Mev before we can build solutions for sequencers that uh address what dowels actually want because you know one of one of the one of the panels I hosted was on like the problems in Dallas today and it's like a lot of the you know delegates token holders the people who are making decisions about

for instance arbitrum like what should the sequencer look like in the future they don't actually know they just know the word Mev and they don't actually know the the nitty-gritty granular differences between these different types of Mev and how a sequencer could how you could design a sequencer that only allowed for some types of Mev but maybe not others it's like really we need better education around this subject and uh it needs to get into the hands of token holders and delegates yesterday in my opinion I want to agree with you but also I think crypto researchers have collectively spent probably one million man hours just endlessly debating definitions on Twitter but no I think before you tackle a problem you always you know Define what it is and like math especially from like a roll-offs

perspective is probably something that we need to figure out and not a lot of people have a good idea on I think another thing that I think about when it comes to straight sequences value accrual right today the value accrual for base arbitrum optimism are all very cure like the sequencer collects like fees on the L2 and then it pays the L1 data cost and you take the difference between those two and it's just pure profit to a secret survey with a shared sequencer that looks very very different because to my knowledge I don't think you can send a transaction involved to like a shared sequencer and sort of like the native sequencer of that roll up and so

if all transaction order flow goes to a shared sequencer right and if espresso's patterns to use like reset thief of eigenlayer as sort of like the token that secures or validates the shared sequencer then what happens to the value or crew of optimism or which I'm the tokens itself I don't think I've had a lot of like I haven't heard a lot of like very clear thoughts from people and I think that has the potential to change like a lot of things perform an event investment perspective also from like a I don't know like ecosystem alignment or like security perspective this is a super interesting question and I don't have a good answer to what

happens when you plug into a shared sequencer network but I think this question is going to become increasingly prominent uh for l2s as they continue to battle for users because they could see a world where the spread that l2s capture on the amount like basically the profit right so Revenue being the amount of transaction fees paid by users on the L2 cost being the amount to post the data back to the L1 The Profit being the difference why you could see an L2 that's like no we're super ethereum and lined like we we don't want to capture profit we want to be a public good so anything like there's no Surplus we're going to capture and we're going to create a field algorithm that is

designed to always generate zero dollars of profit and only charge the users what it cost to post back to L1 and in that sense it's like all right well then there's no value accrual here and there are some pretty ethereum aligned l2s that that might be their end state of what they're at least thinking about building so it actually wouldn't change like the the current you know profitability or or model you could build for an l2's fundamental value girl doesn't change or shared sequencers because the way it's built today is there's congestion fees which are at least for arbitrum arbitrim is the only one that this is true for but it's driven to dial control or you know Dow treasury um dial control the dress and you have a another fee that goes to the sequencer that pays them back for their for their

cost um so this doesn't change but what gets interesting is like where does the Mev go how do you make sure the sequencer Returns the Mev back to the treasury if that's the goal which I would imagine it is at least for arbitrum um so yeah that isn't that is an interesting point and then like Dan said like last time I checked out Ava which is in you know a roll-up belt with the op stack the river financing built it they actually were doing exactly what you said so there's there's no fees for transacting and they were just pocketing the fees for you know trading um so the sequencer was constantly taking a loss but it's made up for in trading fees and uh you could even see a world in the future where you know you had subsidized trading like if you make sure that you know if you do some sort

of Silo resistance and make sure that those transacting are actually real and you've created this token that has a lot of value you could even subsidize getting users onto your platform I think this is actually you know it sounds kind of crazy but I would not be surprised to see this it's not my base case but I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this because you know we will probably have you know 20 LTS at least by the end of this year actually we already have 20 LTS we could have 100 ltus by the end of this year and we could have 100 ltus with tokens so it's like how are they going to get Builders how are they going to get users we're going to see this knife fight between l2bd grants programs and Dallas where they just like doing anything to incentivize developers to

get there and end users as well so I think that's a really cool feature to think about yeah on on the topic of open-ended questions and Justice Matt was finding out like we haven't really defined mev5 at least from a roller perspective like what happens if there's a sequence of transactions that the shared sequencers that the shared sequencer views as optimal for the shared sequencer right but if it sends that sequence of transactions to for example one of the individual individual Roll-Ups that sequence of transactions is not optimal for develop and it could be reordered some other way to make it the most optimal for develop whatever your definition of optimo is what it does

like maximize mov maximize Fajr curl maximize utility for users or something and yeah there's just like a lot of open-ended questions that I don't think a lot of people have a good clue to yet um and we'll definitely get answered along the way as espresso or other like shared sequencer projects continue to work on it yeah you always have the potential model where you know in order to participate in the sequencer Network you have to put a mistake and then you build slashing but I've always had the the idea that we're just I don't know I I think we can do better um I don't think this sounds to me like an optimal way of ordering transactions on an L2 but I also don't have a great solution so you know I can't really be a huge critic I think that's largely because

the l2s are like they're a bit siled right like even the op stack you don't have interoperability and that's sort of like this unsolved problem that shared sequencers are maybe a step in the direction of like obviously you don't get the same bridging guarantees by any stretch of the margin but you do get some cross domain benefits that gives them a little bit more of a connected ecosystem right and so we're even starting to see like I think maybe not in the next three months before the year end but 2024 is going to be interesting like do these ZK ecosystems with richer bridging guarantees actually start to kind of hit some sort of a critical mass and gain traction at all and uh just actually today on Monday the 18th we saw the announcement that Canto is actually

going to move from a cosmos based app chain to uh an ethereum L2 on the polygon cdk so that is like their their ZK stack type type solution um that's going to be interesting like I'm just excited to see this real-time richer bridging if you will in in in production so I don't have I don't know what the ETA is on them actually getting that built and into production but it gets pretty interesting on that point that's really kind of the universe that I'm looking towards is is where we get these constellations of of zk's ecosystems that actually have a better interoperability guarantees am I allowed to change topics here fire away all right I'm gonna make a point

um I think another recurring theme about the conferences what the about permissiveness or just in general over the past two weeks has been about data I think we've gotten to the point where we've all agreed you know like blockchains are these offer information as Ledger you can see all of the or like technically you can view all of the data that you want about every single transaction about the state in any moment of time or at any blocking time of the blockchain but like none of that is readable you know like uh normal users not able to read other scan most people don't have like SQL knowledge in order to form a query on chain and I think both from like a usability

perspective a lot has been focused on like wallets account abstraction the user experience but I think it's also coming to a point where a similar notion is happening for research and data right so obviously I'm gonna self-show a little bit here that Rockets just released their analytics product last Wednesday you get uh trusted verified source of transparency and data for all of the L1 and ltus and devs and we'll be having that by the end of Q4 there's a fantastic mix of very chat by native metrics such as cash flow but you also get very crypto native metrics such as if supply for staking weights um user activity what are the top guys because I

think contracts and I think sort of that's one thing about crypto right you have these like open permissionless platforms you could that you can build anything on but also at the same time there's sort of like a brand name alignment that people have to eventually work towards right and that's not just like for our research product right sure like we have a fantastic research team and we use sort of like data that anyone can technically access but there's also sort of like a verified component to it and it's a similar thing for whether like your roll up or a protocol building on sort of like a modular stack right eventually you would want to sort of lean towards a a verified company or sort of a company

with a better brand name and I think that sort of brand building component even if like everything is kind of the same in the future like say we get the same like role of Stack Frameworks it's something that's gonna uh increasingly come to the front of Mind Over the next one two three years that was beautiful run uh yeah but transparency is my favorite quality of blockchains to be completely honest it's the fact that we can see what's going on um but to your point it's it's not always easy to abstract that the complexities away and just like give me give me the data in a line chart sometimes um and so that's what this product does is we're building out the interpretation layer making it easy to access health and profitability metrics

for our covered asset list so we started with the approach of launching the infrastructure layer first so we're supporting all of our l1s and l2s so you know everything from Bitcoin ethereum Solana arbitrum base optimism and then we're going to build out support for the DAP layer so I think first on the docket uh I don't want to speak too soon but it's looking like it's going to be uni Swap and Lido and then we're going to kind of build out going down there so again as red mentioned we really want to take the approach of kind of threading the needle between what traditional Finance is and has built out and understanding that you know they've done a lot of phenomenal work in how to Value things and what cash flows are and and why that's relevant but there's also we're building it greatly in a new paradigm and there's

things that don't exist before the notion of just like spinning up a digital economy has never existed before and we're going to need some of our own metrics and so that's kind of the direction we're thinking um yeah and again just trying to to thread the needle between Trad Phi and crypto native so a lot of great stuff on there I think we'll probably do a live demo on this YouTube channel at some point in the near future but definitely go to the website check it out I'll put the link in the description but it's app.blockworks research.com data yeah I remember like a month before we launched this so about this time last month Danny dropped in uh you know the product and you're like Hey try and like break this try and figure out what

information is wrong so I have every single you know data provider in crypto pulled up so naturally there's discrepancies between our data and everyone else's data like pretty much across every metric and I'm like Dan you gotta check this Wesley you gotta check this and like you guys were like I'm 100 sure that we are correct here and just hearing your guys's confidence here was like pretty sweet just to know that like we have all the right information but yeah definitely check that out but some other takeaways I had from uh permissionless I feel like Cosmos has a ton of stuff going forward I feel like we've talked about it a lot but got to know Ethan Buckman and Sam Hart a bit because I got to moderate a panel with them and now I can officially uh call them my friends which is pretty cool

um but nonetheless very good guys big brains like seriously just like hyped up about the vision and I asked them about you know metamask snaps which was also announced just a permissionless which basically lets people honestly it kind of turns metamask into more of like a modular product because now like different teams can build different plugins for people to integrate and now you know you can use Cosmos chains with with metamask which in my opinion is huge for the cosmos ecosystem because having to download another wallet you know going centralized exchange to osmosis and then to like wherever else you want to go or yeah just the flow has been terrible then you got the native usdc so yeah I think the app specific chain thesis is definitely gaining steam especially with dydxp4 made in that year pretty soon I also hosted a panel on

gaming that was with Argus uh Brevin Howard and Anna mocha so kind of a wide array of speakers on that one but I feel like everyone just really wants gaming to be where where you want it to be like you know it's got so much potential in crypto but I think everyone also like isn't really sure when that when that moment is actually going to come and it was funny guilty as charged absolutely guilty yeah no it was funny though talking to Scott from Argus because he's like an on-chained maxi he's like yeah everything should be on chain you know he's the creator of the Dark Forest and then you had the the investors going whoa like I think we got to take some of this stuff off chain because like these games just suck so two completely different perspectives

um and then I would also say just bullish Solana Builders I I met the drift team they just launched V2 uh uh Zano and Lucas two really good guys over agita they're at like 2 million liquid Judo Soul um steaks so I don't know bullish on like a lot of different ecosystems and I feel like I went into this conference feeling so confident in like my ideals and like predictions I guess over the next five years and I'm really leaving it more confused than I entered it I got a question for you on the gaming thing so on Chain versus off chain like what's your personal take on how much of the game needs to be on Jane I'm in the investor Camp I think that like the nfts the assets themselves should be you know on chain and then I think that we should have a lot of stuff

off chain like I think it'd be pretty cool if even you had like a game on the App Store and let's say there's tokens involved in the on-chain economy like the hardcore users can go use the the on-chain game but then the Casual players can you know spend their 99 cents to buy this thing and then that buy pressure ultimately flows on chain and the the user doesn't actually even note it know it and I think like you get around a lot of the different nft token gateways of the app stores of the world so I don't know this is this is a space too I'm really excited about but I have no idea what the end game looks like I just want I think I'm in the investor Camp to your point as well Sam but I I kind of I also agree with Matt like I haven't spent

enough I haven't spent enough time to like really know if that's the best answer it's just like my in my head I have the concept of just give me RuneScape with the economy of the game on chain that is all I want that would give you a very interesting Dynamic of like you know you try to make and you could even do this in like a permission to blockchain sense and I think it would still be interesting right because so Eve online Ren you pointed this out to me and like they have this vibrant economy but they don't actually have any of the in-game assets directly swappable for like dollars which I find very interesting and they have this super cool proxy where the like the the dollars in the game I think they're called isk isk is redeemable for a one like uh the subscription to play the

game like on a monthly basis and so they can change the value of the subscription sort of like think of it as like a Fed funds lever right like you can based on how cheap or expensive of this subscription is is like changes the inflow of capital into the economy which is so interesting and like you could find all these crazy crazy ways to um maybe I don't want to use the word manipulate but like change or change the Dynamics of an in-game economy um and I just think that'd be incredibly fun to play and experiment with in real time and like I love kind of like the MMO MMORPG style games as well so I just think that'd be fun um but then you got to think about who's going to build this like are you really going to bet on a crypto native firm

that like loves crypto and has maybe built like a decks or something within crypto and so it'd be perfect to go build the in-game economy for this or you're going to build like bet on the team that has spent 20 years building out this exact game but without the crypto element and like I feel really just feel like it's easier to go kind of backwards and pick up the crypto element than be crypto native and pick up the how to build a fun and exciting game element um so it's like not only does that make sense for the fun side of things but like actually Bill like creating an like a virtual economy that is not an easy task and like Eve online has actual economists on their team so I don't know I a16z funded this that the company that built Eve online to kind of

experiment with blockchains uh so definitely going to be paying attention to what they're doing two other takeaways from that gaming panel too was it was a side panel so like I thought it was going to be pretty empty to be quite Frank and it was packed so like people are interested in gaming there's no doubt about it and yeah I feel very strongly about that and then the other one was I was like so like I feel like in 2020 everyone was like oh yeah imagine you can take your Call of Duty gun over to fortnite and like yeah like that was like The Envision of like web3 gaming like super composable and I asked them if they're bullish composability and interoperability and they're like honestly kind of bearish composability but pretty bullish interoperability like the ability to just cash out of one economy very seamlessly go to another

game and play in that economy and that actually made a ton of sense to me I had that one hit home for me I'll add that as an avid gamer or it used to be a navigator I'm not sure I have the time for that these days uh but as an avid gamer I'm definitely excited about launching games but one area that I'm also super excited about is gamified things right whether that's game inside learning gamified work or gamified I don't know I feel like I said learning already um but just like putting gamified stuff on the blockchain where you know you have like token incentives and you directly get streamed like out of like US dollars for working that that feels like a very natural

evolution of taking sort of like the best of big Tech or like startup type apps and sort of like the retention that they have and putting it on blockchain you know uh especially as the economy moves into a study more like freelance model it seems like you're seeing more people do like more things on the side right whether that's like writing drawing doing a cartoon ghost riding um and especially as sort of emerging economies come online and they have like an entire Festival of like talents that graduated from good universities uh super smart very talented it's just that they don't

have any job opportunities available domestically it seems like crypto at least from like a financial payment rails perspective has the opportunity to sort of equalize that and make those opportunities more accessible or for example say you're like AI company your problems suck today you want to improve the results of your responses right um you don't want to have to go build out like your own platform you don't have to go find your own customer base so maybe someone creates like a decentralized human resource Marketplace where anyone can come on help train your models you can stream them usdc for every like problem that they did well and you can add like some token incentives or like whatever and and

gamify that seems like a very natural use case of crypto and I feel like I want to see a lot more of that happening too yeah I'm definitely for a gamified experiences as well around I couldn't agree more there but I did want to ask one last question before we wrap up because there was a really good panel uh with uh monad and uh Eclipse blanking on the third party on this one to be completely honest but I feel like just the svm has kind of been a big talking point Anatolia had that one talk on stage where it got really heated with uh some of the other panelists and and why the Single Shard thesis is the right way to scale blockchain so I'm curious um how do you guys feel about the svm on on ethereum as a roll-up with Eclipse I believe that uh that news should be

coming out soon this week yeah I'm super excited about that in like that creation right and so what I actually talked to I had a panel on the modular stack with John Adler uh C node and Neil from Eclipse as well he was there and I asked him I was like okay look like plugging in svm based roll-up into ethereum which is evm based got to be some complexities there like I don't know I can't tell you why I'm from a developer level but in my head that's just like like I don't know taking two ends of an electrical cord and trying to plug them in together when like that just doesn't work and uh he was like no that's it's act it's not and I was sitting next to John Adler on stage when I asked this question and

John was like yeah actually you know I can think of a few reasons why would actually be easier and I was like all right now I'm very confident that you're not lying to me and this is actually work is true so getting the localized view markets and the parallelization of the svm and plugging that into ethereum's liquidity Hub as a settlement layer what else do you want I mean that's kind of like the best of all worlds that we have right now and like you can even expand that onto the future and say all right use eth as a settlement so put my bridge contract there give me the liquidity based that it it's that it currently has and I can tap into some of the liquidity uh maybe even in those L2 ecosystems and then give me the cheap da from Celestia and then I'm gonna use the

svm that kind of seems like this dream world of of what we have as from an infrastructure level today so very excited about what eclipse is doing it seems like they've kind of bailed on the Rope as a service thing Neil's been like very open about they just don't see the economics behind that and like I don't know I haven't really Dove too too deep on that but like in my world I'm relatively bearish on the idea of like 100 ropes a thousand ropes a million ropes like that's like a roll per user at this point like I think a couple Roll-Ups is probably the most logical starting point for me and like that's where I'm at right now so I love to see the SPM all right so I'm pushing back pushing back on all comments here um yes you know having localized fee

markets on L2 is cool but in my opinion it's somewhat worthless because you can have application specific Roll-Ups you're not really fighting congestion on your roll up anyways if you launch something really cool on arbitrum go spin it up into an L3 if you launch something really cool on optimism go spin up your own L2 on the op Stacks if they get if it gets enough use that it's really like you know competing for for Block space And as far as you know it's like that's why I think like globalized free markets on L2 is like cool but you know kind of kind of worthless um and then as far as like the svm you know I guess okay cool we're gonna get rust developers over here but like as we've seen with arbitrum and arbitrum stylus they're gonna support a full wasm compiler in the future if the Dow

approves of it approves it so I think that's actually way cooler like a wasm compiler you can do you can do Ross C C plus plus so not just rusts I think and I think zks think is doing something very similar with their own custom compiler they actually don't even use DVM they're gonna have their own virtual machine um they have a likewise they'll be able to compile multiple different languages down into I think eventually probably into evm by code erythem by code so realistically like you know not a ton of value in this uh yeah we're gonna onboard all the rust developers which I already kind of you know have a problem with at the end of the day like if you're an amazing rust developer you can probably go learn solidity uh there's other benefits like you know for instance with the Watson compiler you're

able to come and put in custom pre-compiles so like easy to comport some like super complex elliptic curve into your application that you know rewriting solidity would just be close to Impossible because it'd be too expensive it's like that's awesome but everything else is like yeah I don't know I just I just don't see it as anything but cool I do think it's cool I just don't see it as like super valuable for for the robes and then also if you're using Celestia as your data availability layer like you know you're not scaling ethereum you're you're not you're not really getting ethereum security so okay okay okay I agree but I think my my biggest pushback will be on point one right because I'm still sitting in the camp where Atomic composability is this thing that like we haven't really

figured out the true value of today and so I'm not ready to give it up honestly um I want apps to be fully composable with each other especially in a financial sense and again like I'm not going to sit here and tell you I have the the Silver Bullet as to why but that really feels like a major unlock of blockchains that settling for async composability uh even if it's just like one block delayed it just doesn't seem like the best move like I really feel like there's a huge unlock there we just haven't figured it out yet so I'm not ready to to settle to say all right just move them to its own app chain L3 but I hear you there and I do think local isv markets are still interesting because you know at times of peak congestion you know we've seen like

arbitrim fees still get like you know material increase materially localized fee markets are Elite there's no way around it but do you really still have synchronous composability with localized free markets like correct me if I'm wrong but if two things touch the same state I don't think they can be composed like I don't think you you can't be composable in the traditional sense and be in separate fee markets um and I might be wrong here I'm not like you know the most the most well read on Solana but I think that if you're like you know touching D5 which I think most people want to be able to touch the same state so if you're touching Ave and unit swap so you know you're being composable between the two you probably can't have these transactions be in in separate view markets I that I don't want to pretend like I

know this specifics here either because it's I my thought is like basically each it wouldn't necessarily be the token contracts that uh are like the piece of State being altered and it's more so the liquidity pools themselves right so like each pool would be a different piece of state but we definitely need to get a like a parallelization genius Giga brain on here and be like I want to know on a like protocol of like let's pretend uni swap was on the svm like what does that mean for uni swap that would be such a fun conversation that's a great idea for a podcast honestly we should definitely do that honestly though my biggest takeaway here is that Solana is the winner like let's say Eclipse launches and one Single Shard oh like they're the winner here

though out of this situation because let's say Eclipse launches a ton of liquidity migrates up there and then you get a bunch of Builders who are like oh now I want to learn svm coding like and then you know you're going to have deployments both both on this roll up and on Solana because why not you might as well deploy both places and then you'd be able to see the benefits of having a letter one versus a roll-up as an svm so I don't know I I put the real winner of Solana for sure and I know Anatoly says that as well I'll say that vlogspace is abundant but liquidity and network effects aren't and I think that's become very very evident in the past few months especially as developed after a lot of launches but also it's action after app

chain tells the press that you know their ethereum aligned they're totally not like a cosmos project um I I do think Solana has been winning in the grand scheme of things in the past a few months whether that's sort of like the real Integrations it has or for example like a trip is doing really well they have like a decent amount of like D5 projects launching on Solana these days especially like Zeta drift it all seems like they're doing very interesting things they're I think just one project um I can't remember the name but they launched like zero day Futures I hope it's a Solana project but like that was really cute uh really cool but also another point I keep on coming back to

is like a lot of these metrics don't matter today right like even your favorite like blockchain protocol or like your favorite network probably has like what 5000 the active users and auto takes is one consumer app to come online to blow every single user metric out of the water like I wouldn't be very surprised even here and that Cosmos app has more daily active users than every single blockchain combined together in existence just because it's sort of like a retail shopping app it's found I think product Market fit and it's generated near like I don't know like what 2.6 million like transactions for today I haven't verified that data myself but I would guess it blows everything out of the water right now and it's like you know like you can discuss all you want

like whatever is spread attack but then like near which I'm pretty sure everyone had written off suddenly comes along with like one consumer app and it just like shits on all of your metrics so I think cute was the right word at the end of the day a lot of the applications we have today are cute and they're not you know we're so we're so early stage like one thing can can come and just blow up all these cute applications and prove like you know this infrastructure really we built the infrastructure now we need an app that uh games attraction among users who I think we are at a point that was another another topic conversation I'm sorry I know that you guys are probably trying to wrap up but account abstraction and other ways to abstract away tough user user experiences and make uh you know the general public make

it easier for the general public to use blockchains is another thing that kept coming up and I think like we are seeing such significant we're such significant Evolutions there and you know it's really cool that I think in the next in the next bull market like it might be as simple as you know set up a wallet you never see a private key use your face ID to sign off on a transaction and like you never even know you're using a blockchain like you have account abstraction and someone's covering your gas costs because it's three cents on base anyways or wherever you're transacting and uh that was just like one last thing I want to mention definitely bullish on abstracting away the fact that you're using a blockchain Matt you sent me that gold finish thing and credit to you you flagged this thing like four months ago and I was like I'm

not looking at that and then you put it up at permissionless and you were like dude just click the link and do it and this Goldfinch app like you click like three links so you scan your face and boom like you just signed a transaction you never knew you had a private key you never knew that your address was some long hexadecimal address you don't even know what a blockchain needs like you don't need to know what a blockchain is or know you're using it it was cool I was like all right this that was actually for like a mass adoption moment I was like I can tell my mom to use this and it would work like that's cool so I definitely agree abstracting away blockchains in beyond the sense of just like traditional account abstraction is really cool yeah at a web 3 wallet Wars panel and

like that was obviously a very common topic of conversation was account abstraction but I did find it interesting when I asked them so what's the long-term business model here for for wallets not a single one of them could say like how we're going to monetize the user base I think like everyone just thinks this is a winner takes all market like we got to get in there I'll compete metamask make a better wallet get the users and then we'll figure it out later which I just find hilarious can't say sell your order flow on stage sell your order flow and then didn't metamath print like a billion dollars from their swap product over the last year or something like at least a couple hundred million which is just absurd plus like also like I didn't say this but they're gonna launch a token for sure right like I think we can

all assume they're gonna launch a token yeah I actually I led into the question that way I was like so I doubt users will get railed on one percent fees forever like in app swap so like what's what's the next step here and yeah I think you guys are right payment for order flow anyways that's probably a good spot to call it um definitely let us know in the comments how you like the uh the new structure with the analyst segment and then the interview we feel like there's two cohorts of listening here so uh yeah just drop it in the comments but guys thanks for coming on the Pod and uh we'll see you here next week yeah appreciate it guys and Matt color next episode next week should be a good one [Music]