Panel on Scalability

Transcript

event this panel is going to cover the future of skillability and we have invited several people that are playing a role in it so I'll start with st sitting right next to me uh a founder of pontum he will tell us everything about it this guys are connecting evm to move next to him VII Chief grow of eclipse connecting Solana and evm and the last person Ansgar doesn't need an introduction I think everyone knows at this event uh ethereum foundation so ready to kick let's do it so let's assume that not everybody in the audience is familiar with uh what you guys are doing I would like to ask you to give us us a brief brief recap of what you're doing so maybe you want to

start stas on Pont yes sure hi everybody my name is stas I'm one of the co-founders of PM and I'm one of the guys who responsible for BDA basically you know like I'm the one that tries uh to make sure you hear anything about us you know in this very clouded world so we are the big supporters and experts in move we've been working on the Move ecosystem before even Su in Aptos for the current champion started you since 2020 uh we been one of the biggest up builders on top of optos we have the biggest decks liquid SW the biggest wallet pum and one of the biggest m coins if not the biggest doo which you guys might have heard about so we touch this as well and we recently launch a new product called lumio basic lumio it's Alm it's the idea that we want to

see move future on other ecosystems like ethereum like perhaps others in the future we became part of optimism super chain and network and we basically have this something called hybrid VM thing which allows mixing different languages on a single platform hi guys PJ here uh so I'm the chief growth officer at Eclipse Labs which is the team building Eclipse an eclipse is a modular Layer Two built on top of ethereum that uses the salana VM for execution so it's a very purpose-built uh general purpose L2 designed for high performance use cases and specifically our vision is high

performance with the hard constraint of verifiability and in terms of use cases that we're seeking to support and help scale it's high throughput defi use cases like onchain Central orderbooks games that are posting a lot of metadata on chain uh and high through applications as well just to name a few yeah and hi um I'm Ana I'm a researcher at theum Foundation have been working on uh several different things in the past the things that are maybe most relevant for for for the for this topic is that I mean for one I've been involved with kind of our effort of scaling um scaling data availability which of course is is is a necessary

ingredient for for rollups on top of ethereum um so 4844 and kind of the the steps beyond that and then also more recently um because we we've been looking a little bit at like the the ecosystem of of evm based um uh uh rollups and of course these are examples for for alternative approaches which I'm personally also really excited about but we we were looking specifically at the evm based ones and um notice that because of the evm equivalence that all the layer tws or most of the evm based layer twos are shooting for they all a little bit constrained in to what extent they can innovate on the virtual machine side and so we've also been recently um basically co- initiating a an effort called the roll call the rollup call which basically is trying to to have a

have an IP like rollup Improvement standard for basically having rollups in a like in a in a shared way move beyond the constraints of l 1 evm thanks ancar thanks for joining um let's kick it off so um many people are wondering stas why move I mean I I want to give you a little uh primary here St and I know each other for a long time and his team has been um working on move for like more than three years I ass four years I was close uh when as some of you might recall move was the original language developed by Facebook team when they had their plans to do Libra calibra and then DM and I forgot

the second one right so um give us a little bit of insight here yeah so in our opinion move brings some uh I mean you know like the best examp example how when we compare to solidity it's kind of like a difference I would say between Java and JavaScript I would say like like I mean this how we explain it to people that while you can do stuff on solidity and basically you should do stuff on solidity it might be a better idea to do some of the mission critical stuff on move uh because move inherently creates a more secure environment uh which basically kind of prevents you from shooting yourself in the leg which we see a lot of time happening on uh solidity especially with uh you know with uh unexperienced

developers or if you know if you're like in the middle of a bull run and know everybody just rushing to do stuff without actually having enough time to check it so everybody running time to Market so because the move was actually designed by people I mean maybe not many know but but meta Facebook back then when they started working on move on Libra they kind of P hired some people withan Foundation they kind of told them okay if you would like to see if we will have to build the evm today you know eumm today what you will do better in this time and in our opinion it's I mean when they did this they kind of tackled some of the inherent issues that ethereum VM has and probably will have for a while because changing will break out some beos support uh and basically in our belief it's despite it

having a higher entrance level than just the solid person you know which basically if he only J that you can start working solity for move you need to know rust for example you know to be able to do but once you do we believe it kind of helps you to write a more secure code uh reduce your dependency on Auditors and obviously reduce your auditing costs and another nice bit you also get a very very high performance I mean for example uh there have been test which been able to run and move like over 150,000 transactions on the machine itself uh so which I mean I'm not sure what's like the maximum level of evbm but it's definitely one of the fastest machine there obviously maybe not as fast as Solana also last machine but yeah so our belief is that you that it's

like you know it's just like on toolkit I mean the same like as a developer you will not limit yourself to you know to C++ or JavaScript or Python and you probably need the to use the right tool for the job we believe that you also should have at least some knowledge understanding on move because you know the DS the applications is becoming more complex more you know more you know larger H require more moving parts and the way you go up the more you need to be able to use you know to ensure things work as they supposed to and we believe that move kind of more suitable for the job at least for the mission critical parts so we kind of see it being uh supplementing this actually what we with Plum supplementing part of EV I'm not going replacing it but supplementing

giving you a way to rewrite or write bits of code which you would like more secure or faster to be done more rather in thank you Asar how do you see what is your standpoint on staff's comments on solidity from experience right I mean um I I think basically it's it's an open question like often times with with kind of these this um system these these new systems emerging right the blockchains being one example there's always the question the K version the K kind of text de is that good enough will that evolve um often times there's quite a bit of friction of for people to say okay hey we've been used to the evm for a long time now

moving over to the to the movm or something so the question is always is basically the the the difference the the benefits on the other side big enough to justify people basically going through the the friction of of making the jump and I think to to me that's basically an open question like I uh I think when we kind of decided on on the ethereum on the Bas layer side that we were kind of going into the scrollup Centric road map we were specifically kind of the idea was that we were like hey we we don't want to to have an opinion on this we don't have to want to have to predict the future so so we're just basically going to open it up and and and we're basically going to see like I I I definitely think that like approaches like like like the movm like of course

also the the svm that that's super super interesting right um I personally I have a hard time predicting right like is are the the these these these advantages are they enough to to to make people kind of excited about moving over to to new teex te that they're not familiar with um of course yeah solidity kind of has its drawback also solidity of course on the other hand is is is very very battle tested right so so so there's like a lot of tooling around it there's a lot of just knowledge a lot of kind of experience people have with that uh you could also build other um programming languages and people have been doing this for example shout out to the Fe team which is a relatively unknown but language that's being developed for ethereum that um

that's more russh like um but of course you you run into like uh like some some things are like pre pre predetermined by the VM you use right so like you you you you still will end up with a different experience develop experience um so so yeah like I I'm personally I'm I'm really excited I basically I can't wait to fast forward three to five years and find out how this all turned out thank you kudos to itarian Foundation for inclusiveness could you pass your mind to so VI for you I'm not going to ask you about rest because our assumption rest and mvea kind of family I have something better for you so we have a a small ethereum community in Asia which was initiated in Hong Kong and vitalic

asked us to manage it for him and I asked I told the guys that we're going to have this panel and they had some questions so as it's a community for Community event I will use these questions if you allow me so basically the developers asked me to check with you what's the latest on proof of history and the overal consense of Solana how it's contributing to what you guys trying to do yeah so I think zooming out a bit the approach that eclipse is taking is sort of orthogonal to say a fully decentralized end to-end approach in a lot of ways right and that's something that we think is unique about what we're doing and uh is sort of a necessary part of the broader landscape in order to

enable these high throughput use cases so so an example of this in our approach is that uh due to the benefits of the svm you can afford to have a smaller set of nodes that are basically beefier nodes uh and it's relatively more concentrated sequencer set now that might be an athma and sort of certain circles but that's something that we think is uniquely helps to enable a long-term resilient Layer Two for etherum that's highly designed for as I was saying earlier high performance with the hard constraint to verifiability um and so longterm the vision for Eclipse is really where we can uh continuously be upgraded and in the hardware level improvements that are

coming at the node level and we can do that if we have a smaller more concentrated node Set uh so that's something that we're deliberately leaning into and we think is unique and helps to enable the use cases that we're going after uh but for say decentralization maximalists uh or people looking for for ultimate kind of priority of sensorship resistance above everything else there might be some trade-offs there and so that's a design space that we're spending lot of time thinking about and and seeing what we can do from sort of a fully decentralized governance perspective uh maybe in accordance and an alliance with players like the ethereum foundation to uh to to help kind of provide the transparency even if you do have a more

concentrated sequencer set got it you kind of leading me to my next question because when we looking at the um blockchain trilemma it's about safety decentralization right and security so it's a perceived uh I mean there is an opinion that you always have to sacrifice something to achieve something else so you have this less decentralized sequencer right now that you introducing right this is to favor scalability but you are going to compromise to a certain extent on decentralization and maybe on security so on decentralization a bit

yes but we inherit the security of ethereum because we're still settling to ethereum and using e the asset so in that sense I I think you know and from a safety perspective that's not really something that we as an L2 uh optimize for ourselves in terms of our Tech build right so that's because we're posting ZK fraud proofs uh to Celestia which is the da solution that we're using and da because it's highly modular is something that you can plug and play right but we're starting with Celestia and so safety is not something that we are setting up to solve ourselves right whereas say in comparison to a L1 like monad they need to solve for both safety and liveness that's something where

because we're we're posting the ZK fraud proofs we don't have to worry as much about the safety piece and we can focus purely on the liveness piece so we're in essence we're leaning into what makes us unique and and going all the way with that uh which is something that we can afford to do because the design space and problem space that we're going after is different for us as an L2 compared to say an L1 that has to consider the totality of that trama understood St same question for you what do you guys compromise on in favor of what so like look everybody know the state of L to at the moment that there are not much yet decentralization there on the sequencer side you know like

everybody working on the deed sequence of design I haven't seen like much stuff been running out I mean I launch one uh but still the majority of layer tools are kind of using you know the team control it let's say h sequencer sorts we kind of try to Sol solve it thanks to our partnership with upos we have something we call subc finality means that we can put a I mean obviously is also not as decentralized as eum you know like they have like about what 110 150 KN but we can do like a subsequent finality on them and then we can do full finality as well we call it on on ethereum uh the idea is to eventually decentralize you know the sequences as

you know you know once it becomes a standard is optimism you know like once we have enough node Runnings and you know it's kind of like I guess like kind of like ethereum vent as well you know ethereum went from what from like a dozen of pools know like mining pools uh which been like controlling the most of it like what we seen happening in Bitcoin into like what which is much more desized design we have now which indeed very impressive I mean you know a lot of people didn't think that you know eum can actually pull it off so amazing job guys like this how many knows there like 500,000 I mean how how many notes there are onum now like 500,000 something like this last I se for for notes on on the sounds about right I yeah yeah a lot a lot yeah so we do see that eventually

you know like those networks that will survive will go the same way you know we do see like it will happen but yeah definitely right now the most of the focus of everybody is the performance in ity and the security which is kind of Less on the uh you know Less on the on the road map I would say but you know it's this the old the same it's not the centralized enough debate you know like which everybody talking about and everybody said it will be like a big big issue and basically that hison project is not decentralized but we've seen that a lot of designs start like this and eventually they evolve in something decentralized so I don't see it's much of Bigg compromise because we have hear other things like Game Theory you know like like Community pressure you know like like VC pressure of s you know that

the team will not scam will not rock will not run away and this kind of serves as I guess as a good enough uh measures until the fully centralized design goes life so I mean you know nobody sees optimism or arrium or you know base or whoever you know rugging you know like just because of all the reputation hit and everything will happen so you know even that they are not fully decentralized due to their sequence of design so you know it's it's something that which we all have to do for now and eventually technology will C and allow fully decentralized design which we all will adopt thank you yeah I think all of us would agree that the decentralization is a goal a common goal for all of us this is where we want to

get in its work in progress now I need to Maxi opinion from you ancar now maxium Foundation opinion on the subject of trma sure I mean yeah I I have my own personal thoughts on that of course I mean yeah I think with with with this tras it's also of course important to not overstretch that as but it's it's always kind of there's always things to improve on but like of course they they're usually trade-offs right and um I do think we B we basically um maybe in on a more General level on on on the layer two side we're seeing I think now more of a differentiation where initially a lot of the layer 2s just started out by just copying the the the

evm the the Bas layer the L1 chain and also copying all the trade-offs that the base layer chain made right like same levels of throughput same level same same basically same same general architectures all these kind of things and um but of course if you actually think about it like the the reason ethereum like L1 makes the trade-offs it it makes is specifically because it's a layer one right and in the Layer Two World you do have a different situation and so I think we're now seeing more and more Layer Two is actually like really deeply thinking about hey for the layer 2 use case specifically what are the trade-offs that we that makes make most sense for our side of the things right so for example um in terms of like how heavy is do can a full note be right like very simple example but like on the

layer one I think over time we have to actually get that down right like in the like 10 years from not 15 years from not I hope that like my my SmartWatch can can just run an ethereum full node or at least something close to it right um it does not have to run in a layer two full node that would be ridiculous quite the opposite I think actually layer two full nodes basically having to run you know like in a data center I think that's actually a a fine point in the trade-off space um do I expect all OS to do this no of course like there's different types of of of of of systems you can design but at least it's a very valid point of the trade-off space and and so kind of leaning into that and then really from first principles thinking

about hey if we are willing to make that trade-off so basically if you want to run a full note you have to basically have a really beefy machine now on the plus side I can leverage that and can really build my system to take maximum advantage of that right so high parallelization super high throughput all these kind of things um that you just cannot do on more constrainted chains right and so in a way I think people often times when they compare different different ecosystems and chains they focus too much on the Tex deck itself like the reason why there's different throughput on on ethereum L one versus Solana versus maybe also like these these upcoming kind of more old VMS like higher throughput chains that's not because of the architecture itself itself it's really because of the different trade-offs these systems can make because of the architecture right

um and so in that sense I'm super excited to basically see start to see layer tws that are really very intentional about the trade-offs they want to make different from layer one thank you uh Community question I'll start with you if you could share that mik M so Community would like to know where do you guys stand on mcoins trading and whether you are going to enable it and at what scale yeah on meme meme coins yeah yeah uh so very important subject you know definitely it's Community Driven um yeah so I I think it's been fascinating to see the last few months uh just everything that's been going on you know

salana has been very much the tip of the spear on that but we've also seen other El's like Bas and and others uh see see a lot of activity around that and I think on one hand I think it's like this really kind of uh fascinating beautiful Community Driven approach where genuinely like these me coins end up seeing a lot of retail interest and and due to the you know the massive volume of trading and in many cases sort of the knock on uh kind of effects on community building itself you've seen these like vibrant ecosystems develop around them and of course you know there's uh you you can either be nihilistic about it or you you can just have a good time or you

can try and see something deeper in in all this activity uh but I think kind of putting aside that like personal uh kind of lens on things I I think it is this whole kind of last few months of mcoin trading has been a fascinating kind of test of throughput and scalability in general uh and of course you know at times salana itself has seen uh some challenges with with that and I think it's it's sort of a really interesting way to continue to battle test these systems and uh Drive improvements uh in terms of infrastructure as well so that's something that we're excited about um you of course we're happy to see whatever develops organically on Eclipse uh in in terms of the retail users and

Community uh so that's something we're excited to see where it goes uh but those are my thoughts from kind of a philosophical perspective yeah got it thanks St I'm looking at you and I'm I don't see the satisfactory smile when I say mcoins because this guy did a crazy project recently quite an experiment Doo and we would like to hear more about it share please yeah I've been like talking to we have like a lot of meetings now when everybody's start asking about not stuff we build in the last four four years but the stuff we did in the last two months you know like so I became I have a bit of mimco in fq so to say so yeah so we basically kind of got to ride it ourselves we launched the new MIM which become very popular became the top MIM coin on upos and we also brought it

to Solana as well we did kind of a Twitter sell you know like just to test the conent we got like $3 million thrown it our way overnight so we just put it all into liquidity and actually it was like a very good test of Solan Solan didn't work for us but you know he knows it better so we think that a lot of people kind of discount m coins and I think it's it's a mistake and this actually what I'm saying all the vs and all the exchange and everything we're talking to because you know we found out it's a very it's actually the path of retail or not retail you know the Regular People which is more correct term of getting into web free at the moment I mean if it was nfts uh back in time but nfts unfortunately they had one big issue

nobody is going to buy an ape you know no no no no public is going to buy an ape which cost even now like 10 you know like ethereum or you know the punk which cost like 30 I don't remember like 40 ethereum as it cost now because it's just too expensive but everybody will buy mem which cost you like5 $10 Etc because people you know will just throw I mean like in this money like5 $10 and think okay maybe it's like a lottery ticket so uh maybe I can make from this5 10 $50 like $1 million like who knows and the example has been over there so we found that actually people regular people again not us but you know the the mainstream respond much better to coins I mean they're not interested to hear about all the latest Technologies they don't to hear about you know like how it

works and to be honest a lot of them also have this you know this fear that you know like that they're going to get dumped on you know like by unlocks of V Etc you know like it feel you know like you can see all the graph of the coins and everything so we definitely believe that this season this Market we will see much more mem coins coming on uh we so like I can give example of us I like we did I mean she SE this we did recently partnership with chingari you might know them it's the they like the we free Tik Tok of India and it managed be the video with them you know like Lally know like in you know like Bollywood style people dancing singing about do and it managed to get like 20 million views like in a week uh with a lot of Instagram

followings and everybody and people actually came and started you know buy do more as a result so we literally see people having fun Vis it you know like we seen the biggest Ingress of our users for our other prodcts you know like uh the decks in the in the wallet came from dudo like the biggest one from since we started and we see a very active Community lots of noise so we believe it's an amazing effect we believe that any let's call it like this layer two building themselves should really consider either launching one of them own or encouraging somebody to do this because we really see this is like the way to attract people attention into because again it's so simple you know it's just riding some funny idea you know like like I mean look at weave which basically you know like do dog

with head like nothing more simple than there you know like the head stays on you know like so people are just buying it you know it's very simple to understand concept you know even if it the price goes down people say is the head still on yes okay I will buy more you know like so but it's as simple as that and it's very easy to understand very fun to do so we believe it will continue we to be I mean we might be wrong obviously but we think it will not fade away it will be during this trend exactly as the nfts were the previous trade because again it's so cheap so easy uh to get one no need to get fractionalized no nothing and we believe every project should consider be part like either launch one or get into one and even if it doesn't succeed it will

be amazing experience for us it was a very good experience it was a great learning lessons it gave us you know the the lessons how to launch our more serious tokens you know for other projects so it literally you know like was just wors for it even not speaking and you know I don't like saying this but not mentioning the fact that like X200 you know like price wi because it started from a penny went all the way to $2 and now how was about like 90 cents to $2 we still made like 90 to 100 x so you know we have happy holders happy people happy Community you know it's a good feeling and it's you know and it's a good PR for us thank you Anar MIM coins I know you didn't anticipate it I don't think I

have that that much to add I think um I think as you were saying right like um any type of usage um is is often just good to just to basically have have the the infrastructure stress tested kind of keep pushing the the need for innovating on on on the technical side I I'm personally not super excited about about mean coins but of course I mean I don't know community activities is a good thing I guess um and yes and like we we for better words like blockchains we're getting closer to actually like having a mature Tex deack where you can actually build and use a products that don't require people to actually be excited

about blockchains but they just have an application that under the hood just works and they don't even need to know that it's blockchain right um but we still not quite there and so we're still in this phase of basically just experimental applications and you know light-hearted fun is just a really good kind of intermediary thing you can do with a not quite mature enough technology so you know agre it's good thing it sounds like really uh yeah exciting experimentation and it seems like if I understood right it's even driving some adoption among people who were not yet involved in India yeah yeah exactly like nft in previous cycle we see exactly the same ter you know if

you remember nft back then there have been two cohorts of people even they did analysis in Twitter they've been like you know the crypto oriented and then they like the general public you know which had totally different their own KS their you know their own influencers you know like their own leaders their own followers you know their community and then it kind of faded you know we see bit of orinal play but you know it's still not in the same force and now these memes we see the same thing and we see like literally people you know like who haven't been interested in crypto jumping on board you know starting doing this starting buying uh so and we don't see it fading we don't see it disappearing uh for example again Solana was the play for mcoins now we see people coming over to base last night or

or two nights actually we started to see now memes appearing on top of Bitcoin after the box so you know we see this activity is out there so and people like it and people do this so I mean I would totally not fade it as the was you know of the meme coin Traders you enable it y we got it f f is like no no that's what I mean you choose to enable it I understood maybe just very briefly mention I I will say that I think especially as we're talking about onboarding new users and bringing people in that maybe that's their first exposure to crypto I do think that we have to at least be little careful and and make sure we understand that we have a responsibility right and so if basically the first exposure and the only exposure that people have to

blockchain is something that at least looks very very much like gambling right and that is a double-edged thought and so I do think that I I personally don't mind if people that you know have been in crypto for a while and understand what they're doing if if if basically like some light-hearted meme coin gambling is is the what they want to do that's fine with me I think if basically the hope of of just magically making money is what kind of brings people in and then that that ends up not panning out I I think that can also backfire so so I think we have some responsibility there to to make sure that you know that that's not going the wrong way 100% I I personally see see the combination of I mean there is a gabbling I mean we all understand that

and the audience as well I think it picked up very much in Asia because it appear it's appealing to the Asian culture because the light memes and all these funny characters I think that's what really happened the Asian adoption is because they like all these cute characters and they don't fully understand all right so what the last uh round if I may I don't see organizers no one is telling me if I have some time um I'll do one short one could you guys share at this point you know the challenges that you're facing and the objectives that you have right now what you focusing on would you like to start uh V challenges and objectives yeah uh so I think for us right now we're spending a lot of time on the ZK fraud prooof architecture I mentioned earlier

uh to really ensure that we can achieve that safety component of what I was talking about well um and but right now we're currently on testnet and seeing good traction among developers um and then in terms of objectives uh you know I think we're we're spending a lot of time telling our story which is unique in in the broader landscape uh and sort of educate educating developers and users on why we're making the choices that we're making and then from a developer adoption perspective we're spending a lot of time with defi developers particularly those building Central limit order books or RFQ systems which are two uh Primitives that you know in many ways have come back from

traditional Finance but right now um in a lot of the ethereum landscape the the leading teams building those have effectively moved a lot of the uh flow and uh compute offchain and you lose some of the benefits of transparency and composability that you had if it was all on chain so that's uh you know those in particular are high performance use cases that we're spending time with developers on because we think Eclipse can uniquely serve their needs um and then also spending time with with gaming and consumer app developers as well thanks is that same for you yeah for us I guess it's the adoption um I mean I would say it's say technology it's more like you know

getting the war out uh because again we are move Maxis as we call ourselves but a lot of people there are you know like not even know what exist so I mean suto has been doing a great job uh pushing this you know the world out but again they're l1s so obviously know like the you know the adoption is limited this is why we actually decided to do lumio and bring it over you know to etherum H and we found like the best way just to do a lot of education for example recently I partnered with Alibaba Alibaba cloud and we are translating a lot of our content into Chinese mandering because Alibaba Club has like over 100,000 developers and we kind of including a lot of R Developers and we're basically bringing them you know the you know all the our Kno how

that we accumulated during the last four years how to get quickly on move so to say and move uh and uh we trying to bring more people from there same for India we are doing inroads there uh but yeah I mean uh because everybody knows what ISM and again but not a lot of people not a lot of mm and we exactly need you know to explain them why they should uh extend their toolbox and try out U you know this new technology this new language and why they should do this H the other site has been working a lot on with institutions and governments in the natural and educating them as well because they are looking for Alternatives H while they want to embrace free they kind of concerned after seeing all you know all

the all the hacks all the bugs you know losing like you know projects losing millions and tens of millions overnight uh so we can of try you know to position move as a potential again very important to clarify we are not competing with CV and we are supplementing it so we you know like this like the nature of our technology this hybrid approach holistic maybe even will be better prate so we can try to explain why they should consider uh uh planning using mov in their road map together with evm solidity and maybe like you know like writing the sensitive parts of their business logic than that and this also slowly moves forward but yeah I guess you know education is uh the best you know the best tool and the main

challenge that we have those days because you know everybody who about Solona surprisingly or not surprisingly but a lot of people still don't know what aosu is and you know it it take some time until we get there and be able to put it on the on the table thank you so we have presented to you uh I would say one side of the future of scalability which is cross chain of course there are many different initiatives and options that are covered in different panels of this conference thank you all so much for joining thank you Asar for coming and challenging us a little bit we needed that thanks for j s St thank you audience H any questions that we should take or we can wrap it up thank you okay I see timing thank you

guys thank you