Panel: Building in DeFi sucks? - @ETHDubaiConf

Transcript

hello everyone can you hear me [Music] okay so today we will talk about interesting topic and the name the title the topic is why building defy sucks so we'll have three parts first of all we'll introduce the speakers here second we will i'll ask some questions and the last one i'll uh you anyone can ask the questions from the speakers about this topic and you can complain about anything you can write the gossips you can do you can ask whatever you want to be honest and the more interesting question questions you have or most interesting

questions we will receive a nice t-shirt the the lobster dao t-shirt uh i i lost my my friend olga she is wearing this t-shirt but yeah this is a t-shirt designed by krivansky and this is a lost collection lost nfc from there from the end lobster energy collection so uh just a bit later we will show you so uh i'm going to start with uh with the questions the first question is please introduce yourself and uh uh who are digits uh hello yes can you guys hear me perfect yeah my name is akil i work with the ef i have led ux in the space for quite a few different projects helping

with status nodes uh leading some of the design work for the different client teams so i actually don't have too much context from the default side of things but bringing context from being in the space for leading ux projects i think d gens are individuals that are quite enamored by the t5 space so people that actually have a good understanding of what's happening in the ecosystem not myself but people that go ape with anything that they understand so would love to kind of hear more interpretations of from individuals who are actually involved in these class spaces as well thank you so much and i'm peter job executive creative director at blockchain foundry also co-founder of last known which is an nft

marketplace um so i'm uh at heart i'm a ux designer and ui designer and content strategist so i guess my opinion of djens is like cross between like wall street bets jokes about your wife's boyfriend etc and but someone who's into crypto as well so hi everyone my name is sergey i'm co-founder of one-inch network one-inch network is as difficult it's a set of it's a distributed network of digitalized protocols uh it includes aggregation among industrialized exchanges and d5 itself uh we actually invented aggregation in d5 space uh before d5 starts to be

defined um but in 2019 digin is for me someone who who knows uh d5 destroys finance very well and is looking for profit it likes me like memes thank you so much the question sergey to you how many of them are real degenerates yeah once again uh how many of the g digits are really degenerate i didn't get it i guess how many teachers how many of them yeah are real digits um i guess every g d gen out there is

unique really based on what i see in the [ __ ] i i get almost every month okay thank you next speaker hello hey so i'm modit i'm leading security at polygon i'm a technical partner at delta blockchain fund i've been doing security traditional security for 10 years i got into blockchain like eight years ago i've done research a lot of development and now just doing security again that's brief intro about me and as for regions like i'll define legion as anyone who sort of is willing to become a friend with me that's

like my definition anyone who wants to call themselves a region is open to call themselves a teaching i don't add any filters or anything like that to it if you want to be a region you are a teacher thank you thanks speaker hardy uh boring crypto um i've absolutely def i've created the code behind bento box kashi magic internet money from amracadabra d-gens i think are just like kind of like an extreme version of early adopters so i think it's great to have them in the space good good opinion next speaker yeah hi i'm

a member of the quill team we do core development so actually a little bit removed from the d5 space naturally and like the way i like to think about it also about legions is basically people who um just ah like the very first adopters the people who like jump on the ship to i don't know settle a new place to maybe jump on the rocket ship to settle a new planet right maybe the very first people were still a bit crazy still kind of reckless to to take that risk but also very exciting and we are actually the people building the ship and to the extent that maybe some aspects are not great yet and i think that's what the panel is about we want to figure out what if that is our fault and how can we build better ships for all the legions

to go settle mars so that's why i'm here nice metaphor hey guys just hey guys i'm kristoff i'm a product manager and a researcher at nethermind and i'm also an ethereum core developer like andscar here if i had to define a dgen i'll just say that there are people who are like chasing high apy uh like uh like the early adoption don't read smart contracts that they invest in and just in general have a very very uh low high risk tolerance sorry

yeah when the when the apy is too good you are the apy uh hi everyone my name is ignis arenas i'm the head of communications at bibit uh so uh the third largest crypto exchange in the world maybe the old one out i'm not a developer uh we are france central exchange but we are always very interested in the d5 space we truly believe this is the future and we are actively supporting it through investment through you know running hackathons and supporting uh developers through kind of looking at their projects and so on so forth we also have we started we are the first predominant proponent and uh ongoing supporter of the world's largest dow by treasury size bit dao it has more than two billion

dollar worth of tokens and its treasury has already allocated 633 million dollars worth of tokens to various uh pursuits including uh 200 million to develop a zero knowledge ecosystem so d5 space is a passion and the focus of ours uh what is a djinn uh well the way we see it is it's it's a segment of the uh customers we want to serve essentially people who are looking for high risk and high returns and they are really really keen and vociferous about experiencing expressing their opinions because we really see like taking positions taking risky positions also just a way of expressing their opinion um hi my name is talal i'm the founder

of coin mena and founder of tranche a d5 protocol first one i acknowledge that the panelist audience ratio is insane when they're saying like please all planets come on stage i would not expect that as for djinn djinns i think there is something called dgen score where you can just put your address and it'll do a bit of calculation for you to see how much of a degenerate you are um but i guess it really boils down to degenerates are people that want to make financial returns try out new products and ultimately don't give a [ __ ] that whether they make or lose money as long as the thrill is there so there's i guess uh crypto adrenaline junkie if that's even a word thank you so much so

in the end uh we know that digits means digi decentralized generation right this is where it comes from and some of them are degenerates so nothing to do and right now we have blitz question just just one or two option one or option two i'll ask each of you and after that we will discuss a little about this what is better or has more perspective for eva mass adoption optimistic relapse or zika labs what do you think thank you next dk thank you it's okay thank you awesome

i have i don't know enough about it both both okay initially optimistic then zk i like this actually i like that i was going to say that okay okay for me okay uh why i'm asking this question i'm asking this because we have to understand the context of the of the speakers and we are on the theorem conference and my opinion about this about optimistic relapses the killer lapse is same as guys mentioned now we have optimistic which is onboarding and then we have the kerala ups but users or djins they don't care about how it works

to be honest as far as i know so for them it doesn't matter but for us it is and another question uh is open question so any of you can answer this what what is the use case or the protocol in crypto or defy failed its product market fit recently almost all [Laughter] what use case or protocol in crypto g5 failed its product market feed so i can answer this question and probably you will find so for me the prediction prediction markets one of the most you know hyped uh use case of the crypto uh cannot find

inspiring marketing what do you think about other cases yeah no yeah so one thing uh one product slash use case i feel uh failed to find its market fit is fixed interest rate lending borrowing so notion yield and protocols like these uh these like fixed uh fixed yield stuff is uh like top of the like it's used a lot in triad 5 but not a lot in d5 because uh like the main usage for this is in regards to hedging and there just aren't very like uh on chain hedging strategies uh most people just um html of chain so uh yeah that's one space which just

never took off okay interesting any other case you think failed its product market maybe those protocols which were hacked of course but it's not about product market it's about competency okay uh insurance probably insurance you think like it's a good point clearly quantify risk in the real world let alone quantify risk and try to manage that in d5 so insurance is definitely a big one but why people or why it's failed it's probably my feet what do you think why it's over sold because it's overly complex and it uh like insurance companies [ __ ] it up in the real world so of course let alone what's gonna happen on chain so

so you think that people they don't trust to the insurance protocols that the the the funds are really you know insured yeah it's not that i think that the way that it's built now isn't sustainable like if um the insurance protocols are basically bailing you out in the same token of their protocol so if if it failed then they won't be able to repay that premium in the traditional world if that happens to an insurance company there's munich swiss tree so reinsurance companies and and that and d5 hasn't reached that stage of maturity uh also just kind of like insurance is down very differently in the in the traditional finance world where you have actuarial tables to kind of like

investigate like a likelihood of probability of something happening whereas in d5 it's really just kind of as uh as my fellow palace said it's bailing someone out and then you basically just play a numbers game instead of really kind of like make it very scientific and really just like based on a mathematical model that is uh you know statistics and and data driven i have one derivatives and i think uh because uh djinns they don't get it okay so if digions they don't get uh the idea of the protocol they are not using it right and they don't know what to do interesting i wouldn't say that it failed but smart

contract worlds i think still haven't hit uh product market fit right if you define it as having incredibly high adoption among users so these days on the theorem the vast majority of users still use eoa accounts and um that that's quite risky for them you know a single private key controls all their funds and if anything happens to that if it gets lost irrev recoverable and if they get stolen all their assets are gone right okay i agree i have maybe sorry to drag this out too much but one more default related thing that i would want to see is that experimentation with stable coins that are not packed to the u.s dollar i think it's

somewhat ironic that we basically that crypto was originally like a way to get rid of the us dollar and now it's kind of enshrining the dominance of the us dollar in global finance and that doesn't have to be a bad thing but i still would at least like to see some experimentation well some more at least 10 days with non-us dollar-based stable stable assets this is very good point i also surprised why we have only you know liquid dollars not euros or whatever good interesting so um and right now we will start uh from the from the you know the the topic of the discussion why building deficits of course one of the reason why building device hacks is you

can spend a lot of time efforts to build the protocols and after a couple of years it will not find the product market so you basically you know uh lost your funds you lost your energy but somehow doesn't work and but we will right now uh we'll go to the thesis which written by andrew cronier uh one of the uh defy influencer and builder and uh it was interesting story because two years ago he published part one why building defy sucks in the end of february the part two was published at the same time a year ago and i was expecting part three like

right now but we know what happened and right now i'm gonna raise some some thesis from uh from his articles and the first thesis is no matter what you do they will be unhappy and they will make a point of telling you so so the question to you guys is that true are you facing that within the development or not i can speak from my personal experience so we got like already 100 times sheets tournament twitter and it's partially true yeah but you everyone who get this [ __ ] storm uh that those stigens or people who are using your servers or your products your

protocols are unhappy about anything uh you shouldn't take it personally what what is the case in from upon you and andre cronier they call sometimes people to to join a fight in a cage or a box fight actually i did it also once uh it was just a joke but this guy took it seriously um yeah just just i i try to not uh to taking care about that just keep building and continuing waiting so let me let me uh summarize we shouldn't as a builders we shouldn't take it personal right and this is how we can protect ourselves

from from that yeah we're just going to add on to that that that's true for any product development roadmap that people are going to have complaints etc but i think one key thing to kind of look at is we talked a lot about ux problems with metamask and other things in the ecosystem but when nfts found that product market fit no one cared about those things users came in that would have had difficulties using metamask two years ago but they're complete experts in using all those technologies there's obviously been a lot of work done by people like foundation wearable et cetera to onboard those individuals but once there's a good product there's a good value proposition for those individuals they take the time to learn those technologies so like two years ago we were talking about all these complicated workflows to make metamask a

bit more usable for these newcomers to come into place but all of a sudden all these millions of individuals came into web 3 and had no issues they might complain but at the end of the day they found value in the the ecosystem and they captured it more than most of the individuals that were already there in my in my world it's like why does anything suck why does any design or any technology suck and really it's it's fundamentally three concentric circles that makes for a good product and that is technology it's business and it's user experience and this industry so new that it's driven by the technologies driven by the engineers they're designing they're designing things and this is my business so you only have to go to binance or

kucoin or gate io to see it's a spray and pray mentality like try to get them to use this product and they haven't done any investment in user experience or testing and that's really where the gap is and the user experience is where the gap is and so i think that's just going to happen over time that it'll just get better so do you think that the the best user experience will prevent us from you know bad users i mean not bad but somehow offended users what do you think it's a question to you yeah i think like over time the experience will just get better and they'll stop complaining um there's

plenty of industries that have shown that over time like um whether it's a fitness tracking app or a facebook you know from myspace to facebook you know it's this the social network's always been there are they just even advancing it and making it more confined and more typical and um yeah thank you i would like to add to this uh uh it's actually cool to get feedback from the community it's also if it's also really bad it sounds really bad and uh but but it's still a feedback so you can improve your product so i don't like all the to use we've made a mask because it's terrible but i share my feedback but yeah they don't care i i personally i care about any feedback

so also if it's bad it's cool to improve their product so coming from the startup space like just like the worst thing that can happen to your project is that you have no users so if you have complaining users you're already in a really good spot that's just what i want to ask i think the the worst thing in in defy is if you have a lot of holders and zero users and this is like you know pretty strange situation because holders they are always complained and price go down right they don't care about user experience they don't care about what you're really building so this is this is why i emphasize it uh this this topic because yeah uh in d5 we have users if

you have protocol without talking but if you have token you have a mess situation here so cool let's go to another question about conspiracy theories because another point he mentioned was why defy djinns or users they are so actively looking for conspiracy theories why what do you think who can answer i can maybe go so that comes down to i guess the point you mentioned that token holders are usually more aggressive that

it goes hand in hand for all retail investors uh they don't like to lose money in d5 the problem is most of the users are actually token holders for most of the products um obviously there are products like uh for example metamask where nobody is a token holder or everyone is but in most d5 protocols most of the users just do liquidity mining and all and have some of the token exposure so they have the investments going in um so it's like if token up project code token down project back doesn't matter what the tech is um if you just look at the volatile movements some tokens have like even spell token from abracadabra like it has gone i don't know uh 10x and like 90 down without a single change in the

protocol itself um so that's how like the token holders are playing it and that's where all of this toxicity comes in when people are losing money uh and this is why people feel like most of the users are complaining at the end of the day it's not the users that are complaining i think the complaints from users the feedback is actually good the complaints that hurt are from the token holders who just a pin without understanding and then uh are mad for no reason like devs can't do anything about it everyone keeps asking dave to do something but we can't just do something it's nice to do something exactly and coming to the final bit what was your question

it's okay you already answered this about conspiracy theories of course actually i think there's a problem with defying inherently the the custom acquisition method they're using like when you use kind of apy to entice people to join you and like lots of times you you have those kind of like uh alternative uh uh smart contract platforms how they can i initially get those developers to move from ethereum to build down theirs is because they got those uh in infusion funds from vcs and they use that to to attract uh developers but when you have the wrong incentive to attract people in the first place of course you will have the number and in time maybe there will be something that kind of like slowly uh congealed slowly

kind of like start to shape up into something that is more mature but initially you will always find just like when you use mercenary capital to attract people then the liquidity you attract is going to be mercenary as well i have to be on the other side so thank you thank you uh so the the the part two he said that the real users in d5 are scared scarce so can we count token holders as users or not or it depends i'll just add to it that's the point like i was making that in d5 most of the users are actually just token holders um so i think those are two different classes token holders can

definitely be users users can be token holders but the properties that you are different users are usually the people you really want to get feedback from token holders in a lot of scenarios are people you don't really want to get feedback from unless they actually use the product and understand it um so i like although they can be the same people and their like mentality is often quite different okay another opinions yeah i mean projects such as compound like am i a compound user i farmed comp when it started and now i hold comp but i haven't used it in over a year i don't know who has but basically ethereum i'm definitely an ethereum user because i pay fricking gas all the time so i think if you like

superimpose two diagrams on top of one another the projects that are successful are ones that have a very high user as part of their token holder base um but you can't consider them the same because i don't consider myself as a compound holder i don't mean to pick on compound specifically but it's because i'm sure many people farmed it in the beginning of d fly summer but no one really uses it now um but yeah i would like to add i would say make talking huddler to to to be a user yeah so like a good example with ethereum to send a transaction you need ethereum so also in all these economics out there

every protocol should make the token holder to to be a user yeah you need a kind of uh logic behind that so that you you your token is for using utility another security for hauling by the way one way to think about it is imagine every time you bought an iphone you get like an apple share that's basically the way that it's being done right every time you use the protocol they give you this token to kind of align incentives but it has gone overboard for sure because humans love gambling and this is a very easy way to have yeah gamification of gambling i guess yeah good point actually if you are

talking can be used should be you have users right if your token cannot be used you don't have users whatever you are doing uh and okay the question here is in your experience the weirdest user feedback in your career you ever seen i i like this example with dev do something the price is dumping but this is basic one it's a 90 percent of requests right uh what else like the weirdest uh user request or feedback or question and as as a centralized exchange we've received [ __ ] loads of weird requests but one one that

particularly stands out is bitcoin withdraws to like a physical address um because i guess that's something you you wouldn't find in detail you'd only find in centralized exchanges but let me let me repeat uh you made the situation where the user tried to wait drew bitcoin onto the physical address is it like apartment number x and like upset that we didn't process the withdrawal like he was thinking it's kind of like a metal coin or yeah i mean we're we're pretty retail focused so okay not hating on anyone i was i didn't know [ __ ] when i started so um but yeah it's it's a funny request you know why haven't i received my withdrawal and then we checked log rocket to see because there's like address validation

if you try to send it to an on unbelievable address it doesn't go through he literally inserts his apartment number street address yeah okay this is weird this one you know better case i have one maybe one more please hear your refund because i did small mistake and swapped uh with high price image okay yeah this is pretty often uh i think in d5 there uh people are sending money directly to the contract without interacting with it right and then they are trying to you know send funds back but you can say that we can't you you didn't interact with the contract you you sent money to that and uh you know but it is very hard to explain to user that uh it is his fault

to do so but this is again user experience you as deaf you should have rescue funds functionality so in my experience i met one guy who did it but it was impossible in ui so even no address you know it is it is very hard to understand the the address of the contract if you if you don't have it on the ui but somehow user did it because he was thinking that he was the smartest guy in the universe and you know what what was happening so um okay the last question uh from from this side and then i will start asking you guys to ask any question regarding

this topic any you know pain points you have and the last one one second and the last one is [Music] so the thesis is your success belongs to your community we all know them right uh but your failure is 100 your own this is is from from andrew grenier do you agree i i fully agree [Laughter] so uh if you write a code and you have a back in it so from our point of view your responsibleness not the user who is

using and trust you potentially because you have already a good reputation that's why we have seen a lot of facts and andre cronier projects and because he didn't care about the security audits and he said i built it for myself but all of a sudden and promos promoted it for everyone and everyone trusted this person so it's it's yours if you have built it you know that is somewhere i'll disagree so uh i'll say obviously success is not only yours it's uh the communities and everyone's in case of failures um it depends i'll say for some protocol some products it definitely is uh like the developers fault hundred

percent of it but for some other things it's not like everyone is a human all the devs everyone is humans we make mistakes and uh you can't just blame like anyone for a simple mistake someone might have made if it's a repetitive thing they are doing then definitely it's a problem but otherwise it's just a mistake everyone makes them even if you're testing in pro if you do it very too often then yes that's a mistake okay thank you any other opinions maybe you also answer that from the perspective of a base chain i would definitely also say that for ethereum itself like all the success that ethereum has been having over the last few years that was all the uses like the

amazing experimentation all the use cases that no one could have thought of that all people all these people building things just came up with developed made happen and that's so that's that's all right their success and then possible failure cases i really think it's just about if the core developers of the chain are not able to keep up with innovating fast enough to keep enabling all these features right so that would be our failure so i think it's a situation where this very much holds true for the base chain as well and we're trying our best to not make it our failure but enable all of your success okay next luckily at the base chain it's very very very very difficult to actually fail

like eips take many many years to go through the whole process they get audited by tens 20 you know maybe even 100 people right well how's the failure if it's audited it's too slow yes that that is a problem but you're not going to introduce a bug into um if you're in consensus then right any other opinions about the thesis that your success belongs to your community but the failure is 100 yours so um i actually find that the communities tend to be incredibly forgiving like i'm completely amazed how some projects just

you know it's truly their fault they lose hundreds of millions of dollars for their users three weeks later they launch v2 when everyone aims back in right so yeah i think actually in general there might be a quick blowback but then it turns around and you get the other side as well so i like to say like it's all about the testing right and what i like to say is you can always outsmart your users but you can't out stupid them and in in many respects they will do things that you had never thought possible one time we were testing a lottery app to scan a lottery ticket we gave the user the app and we gave the user the ticket

and 4 out of 14 users took the ticket and rubbed it on the face of the phone and we were just like how is that possible and that would have equated to like 400 000 people who would have made that mistake and it was all because we didn't do use the right icon it should have been a camera icon and then a barcode icon and that would have been our call like so many people would have screwed up and that would have been our fault and so that that goes for just about anything so test with real users test with their users are we talking about social experiments i i have also to add it's not only about tests uh it's very important

and but also security audience is very important yeah so from what point of view right now in d5 when you publish something you should audit your code from everyone who is offering this service i know this is expensive but it helps so based on our experience thank you so much so right now we have a time for community questions for audience questions please put your hands up and ask any questions regarding this topic yeah we we have one please help okay where you at raise your hand and stand up where you at over here hey um what game change are you expecting to come or what game

change are you waiting for in d5 and when do you think it might come please repeat again what game changing what game changer and d5 are you waiting for and when do you think it will come good question maybe i can go first so to be honest i feel like most of the primitives that had to be created have already been created there might be a few that come up uh over time but if you think about it there has not been a really new big innovative primitive in a violent d5 i think these will just keep uh getting better and more mature over time and it would be a

like a slow constant growth from now on rather than this certain jump that happened in d5 summer guys any game changer you see in the industry i think just the user experience need to be so much better at the moment most of the people who are using it uh you know developers themselves or people who uh kind of have been farming since uh even before d5 summer like you still don't have a very solid compelling case for mass adoption and like institutions are looking at it as well but it's still very difficult for them to even tap into like uh those that is currently being offered it's just a very like when you

look at web street design like we we talk about can i it gives power to the individual and it's decentralized and all that but like the design the the user experience is just not there for true mass adoption to happen i have one fully permissionless money market by one age hey nice shoe uh any any question i can may ask you may i answer the question about the next game charger uh right now i see uh some convergency between classical finance

and the and the d5 so probably we'll see something on the horizon of synthetic assets indexes and you know the the the the games around uh tokenization of like real assets uh i just you know feel the swipe is going on so this is my answer uh any other questions guys okay we have one by the way on the game changer side uh even though i don't really like it but i think permissioned pools what av is doing will bring in institutions and institutions have significantly bigger pockets than we do so i think that would be a game changer in terms of how important d5 is on a global scale yeah hello so what are your opinions on like

regulations in d5 like should it be completely unregulated should it be like partially regulated and what sort of regulation should be the regulations in d5 that's a tough question but i'll say like it is and should be regulated um all of finance like if you think deepa is there are no laws around it right now but it's not like if you earn money on d5 you don't have to pay income tax on it it's all any financial activity is regulated that's specifically why institutions don't haven't adopted d5 yet because although it's regulated the regulations themselves are not clear um so it's a gray area over time as you mentioned like

permission pools always making them that would come up sushi is actually working on them some alpha for you um so there would be permission amms as well and pools as well in the future and probably all of the d5 would have some bit of permissioning it's not like everything would get permission so away wouldn't convert all of their product into a permission product it would just be an option for that subset of users uh to use and that would definitely bring in more volume uh and yeah i think that's what that will work that's what will happen from our point of view we have to introduce kyc for d5 for those who are already for this

by the way i don't think kyc has anything to do with you know proper regulations uh i think it's very important to note that like it's a ticking time bomb if an institution have that that much personal identifiable information um but i do think that regulations from an investor protection standpoint will come around because governments are gonna want to do that after like their citizens get scammed once twice three times they're gonna have to do it um are they gonna do it the right way i'm not too optimistic but yeah i guess we'll see following on you know with this question uh do you not see there's i mean do you not consider this thing as as if defy is actually sitting on the

crossroad right now because if you go along the way of your mass market then you are hitting the wall of regulation with kyc with you know protecting you know all these small tickets uh clients and so on and so forth which in essence kills the whole you know scaling uh scaling sort of opportunities on the other hand if you go to the regulation with institutional investors and what not then in essence uh you're not you know you stopping with defy there as as an idea because they would need uh escrow accounts they would need all these centralized and verified uh service providers that are not really

you know truly defy so is is there like is there like an issue of of how this defy actually need to walk you know which road it should be taken let's hear institutions they have deeper pockets right yeah the the good question about institutionals uh is it real defy or is something something else uh it's gonna be a defy if you will have still the same composibility a good example with our arcs our arc deployed on the fire blocks so if under fire blocks all the balancer would deploy and also one inch would deploy then one inch can aggregate balancer and also ave and

[Music] we can make happen for example you can migrate from a die to a if we've just simply click and this is defy then maybe uniso will join it and and others uh maybe in the future we will not have only fire blocks doing that maybe we need something more global and maybe a standard for permission d5 with a standard for kyc certificates and standard to verify them on a smart contract level right sorry uh at the same time i think like lots of lots of times like everyone say everyone says they they love decentralization but we sometimes just forget can i something just says it's decentralized and then we

kind of i just think that's that's a virtue in itself but decentralization should be a means to and it shouldn't just be a terminal virtue and then oh so long as you are decentralized you are good uh lots of times i feel like a lot of protocols they are uh over indexing on the decentralized part but not enough on what what purpose or what use case is actually serving yeah but what i just wanted to point out is that i think it's going to be really interesting to see how how basically the relationship between the community and the development teams of the role of the of the blockchains develops in the future because as you were saying basically as the community goes more mainstream of

course also so do the use in the in the community and i think so for example um there was a really interesting article i think already 2019 or something that basically ethereum is effectively unforkable now they just looked at the role of um of the of usdc and basically said that whenever there would be contentious fork whichever side of the fork use dc would choose to honor that would be the only support that survives right because the other folk would completely cascade all the d5 would basically completely um yeah um collapse and and go away so effectively we already like hard forking is a very important governance tool and also the decentralization resistance tool and

that's effectively taken away with this like just by the effects that the dfa is already having on the chain and i think in the future is going to be really interesting do governments do the nice thing with regulation and it remains opt-in and maybe they force their citizens to to follow along or do they actually try and force the entire chain to play by their rules right and if there ever is a hard fork where on one side of the fork they enforce miners to follow specific rules or stakers or whatnot and that is also the site that they force all the stable coins to live on what options do we have right do we have to start do to compromise all our core values or can we resist this and i think this will be like a really important um potential point of conflict going

forward i think um on on the decentralization side or like d5 decentralization is a spectrum you can't say like it's black or white the most centralized is sending a wire from dubai to new york where you go through your bank who goes through a correspondent bank and swift and all that all these centralized entities and then on the other side of it if you're running your own node managing your own private keys that's more on the more decentralized side and but there's definitely going to be protocols that take all sides of that spectrum i would like to add um if you are talking about digitalization how this intro uh this decentralized area right now in ethereum if you look on the mining pools there are like four big mining pools and if three of them like

put something together they can scam everyone and uh how many billions do we have in d5 right now so you know like we are not decentralized from our point of view yet but we can be soon with uh like this upgrades of ethereum so speaking about d5 uh we started as decentralized finance but right now it seems like the main feature of the d5 is actually composibility right because we cannot say that it is real defy because smart contracts are working with the multi-six and we have iron free people who can control the treasuries and sometimes we don't have to blame them uh for their past right you

some of you uh knows this uh this funny meme uh recently and uh so the compassibility right like and compatibility is about the standards right it's not about users at all it's about building blocks and then another blocks and then another blocks and some some sometimes uh builders uh product builders they will reuse them and you know build the products which are working with the many protocol sub protocols right so the g5 is about composibility not not about um use cases and uh so uh guys you have any other questions here hey what's up guys thanks for the talk um you guys were speaking about usability and you know developer user experience and you mentioned metamask

what are the feature that you guys would like to improve and to see for the next 6-12 months i would like to see all my tokens in the wallet i don't like to add the talking by myself and i need to search field to find the right token and the sort functionality please protest that to the highest level otherwise i have to write my own extension which you can totally do very soon um do we have any more questions okay let's let's sum up uh the good question is uh then token then moon what else can do this uh something right and uh amazing question with the metamask uh i have uh something to add

here of course uh the the the all the tokens you have must be there but you know sometimes you have a lot of spam tokens especially on the cheap chains you have like thousands of spam tokens so there should be some kind of consensus approach uh for like you know how to write least some some like some assets and and some some somehow sort them based on based on the balance right and another pain point is cross chain we have like many different chains and you have to somehow switch between them we have seen a great heck in the last days right like 600 million for stolen from the bridge and greatest maybe not the right word but

like yeah it's it can be terrible cross-chain implementations the question uh the anton from one inch uh recently wrote the theater thread and he agreed with vitalik about there is no uh cross chain there should be multi-chain uh what what do you think what's the difference um i'm not sure that this cross like this a lot of networks are around ethereum it's just uh only for a short time uh layer 2 solve huge problems scalability problems and it's more safer than to

move all the funds to a fork of ethereum with no innovation technology behind that thank you any other opinions i mean i think um it's kind of almost convinced in ethereum to just go along with the multi-chain thesis and i think in some extent that comes from not wanting to replicate the toxicity of bitcoin maximalism but i do want to point out that ethereum itself very much bets on this layer 2 pieces the modular blockchain and i don't think in this world necessarily we will end up in a multi-base chain world and so why that always makes one sound a little bit like a maximalist i

just want to point it put it out there that like i think it's very unclear whether in the long run we really have to live with all these terrible bridge unsafe bridges oh whether we might get something better so let's see i can add like um i agree with the points vitalik razon is supposed to have not read and on suite but agree with his points but his conclusion that cross future is not crossing i disagree with um i really like the point here is um if you are bridging tokens from one chain to another your security is basically reduced to the least secure chain uh but the thing is if you're bridging from let's say aetherium to maybe polygon both of those genes have acceptable security for you unless you wouldn't be bridging um so

that is uh one case and then i think like it's something like crosstain will happen if there are like if there's a multi-chain world i like to think of these teams as different countries let's say if there are different countries people want to travel between different countries you you just can't like stop travel between different countries if there are better opportunities in a different country people will migrate to that different country so cross chain will happen doesn't matter if you like it or not so guys we have only one minute left we have to decide the best question from today's panel and my suggestion is the metamask question because it was you know the pain point [Laughter]

for everyone basically yes and uh congratulations uh you won the lobster nft t-shirt thank you so much you