oSnap DAO Governance Plug in w UMA

Transcript

foreign guys welcome back to the roll ups YouTube channel we're here today with our guy John working on a really cool optimistic uh Oracle idea but more like optimistic snapshot we're gonna dive into how we can efficiently take governance on chain uh and kind of make it more permissionless uh and less kind of manual work as as well so definitely an exciting topic for you if you are uh a leader of a protocol if you have participated governance before um and you know you've seen some of the flaws so yeah we're going to dive into what they're building um and educate you all on what's going

on so Rob how you doing yeah I'm uh I'm stoked to uh to talk to John uh special guest today we're gonna be diving into uh Uma which it is uh stands for Universal Market access um their main product is the optimistic Oracle uh has some similarities and some differences to chain link um but it is a little bit more Community oriented um and today we're talking about a specific application of the optimistic Oracle for governance um so I'll pass it over to John let him introduce himself and uh and let him introduce osnap yeah thanks for having me on um so like you said Uma is an optimistic Oracle and what that means is that anybody is able to make an

assertion about some data like say that this happened in the real world or this happened over on this chain um and then anybody's able to dispute that if it's not disputed you can use the data for whatever your smart contracts need it's really flexible in that respect so you're not relying on specific data feeds which is kind of the chain link model you're able to propose and execute around anything and so osnap is using that flexibility and taking it to Dow governance where right now a lot of dials aren't particularly decentralized they're definitely not particularly autonomous and part of that is because they're really reliant on multi-cigs so we wanted to come up with a solution that really decentralizes Dao's and we're meeting dials where they are a lot of Dao's use snapshot a lot of dials use a safe and you can connect the

two with Uma sitting in between to validate the transactions that were approved on Snapshot are able to be executed with the safe and that can be anybody executing that so you get rid of a lot of those kind of regulatory story and centralization risks around a multi-sig and it also makes it more efficient because it's not really fun to be a multi-sig designer so I thought this was a really cool extension one part of it too it can go beyond just enforcing snapshot votes because you're able to write down natural language rules and because uh disputers and voters are able to interpret those rules you can kind of extend your written rules of your Dao in a natural way and you're not just reliant on things that are easy to write into code so I think it's going to be a really interesting future for Dow design once you unlock

enforceable written contracts essentially on chain yeah it's something we haven't really seen just yet I mean the the general contract and application applications to governance in particular like the one that comes right to mind is like the arbitrary of governance proposal that was put up you know just over the last weekend and they mentioned in this proposal um the security Council that that they have as a 9 of 12 multi-six signer they also put in The Proposal that the community could vote out this Council uh entirely so I'm curious like how that would work and if osnap could kind of be the middle layer where you know let's say they wanted to remove the security

Council and just execute the voice of the community could they do so with uh osnap executing transactions in this in the safe yeah you definitely could if the Security Council is basically controlled by the safe you attach osnap as a module on the safe and you just pass in a transaction that changes the composition of the security Council so it's like any other transaction so the way that it basically works on Snapshot is you compose your bundle of transactions which could be like send this nft over here send this youth over here and then some tokens there and remove this person from the security Council and add somebody new uh once it's voted and passes through on Snapshot you can use Uma to verify that it passed on Snapshot because we can see what's going on off

chain because it's an Oracle and then you can just execute those transactions and that can be anybody executing that too so as long as it follows the written rules of your Dao in this case just you know if it passed on snapshot with such and such Quorum and voting period it's valid then anybody can execute it and that really gives you autonomy and it um it really removes the Reliance on the multi-sig and you still could keep the multi-sig around in this case it's kind of a security Council emergency multi-sig that isn't really meant to be used except agency situations that could be still there it's not like necessarily replacing every other system of governance that you have you could even have on-chain voting for some specific things but in most cases it's just way more inclusive and it's way more

efficient to be able to do off-chain voting and there's a lot of reasons for that yeah I've noticed that as well that um there was like that's what snapshot kind of came about that's why um you know it was kind of well it was really because there wasn't anywhere to do it without spending tons and gas and also it just further disincensensifies and already slow process and kind of tough to engage process of governance for a lot of people um yeah I mean I'm I'm curious if you think Solutions like oh snap I will further kind of intensifies governance across the border if it's kind of a step in the right direction and what potentially could be implemented

throughout the broader kind of defying governance token space to incentivize participation um you know because right now I think a lot of the the results and kind of uh actors are all large parties or people who are kind of working for the teams um so there's not exactly a massive kind of use case for people who are kind of smaller investors or who care less if if you will so yeah like what kind of tech or ideas or thought have you had about further incentivizing you know off-chain governance uh how to make it easier for people how to get more people to to kind of vote and be active or at least delegate their votes um yeah yeah I mean I think that using off-chain

voting and using snapshots tools to create specific snapshot strategies makes it a lot easier hopefully increases participation in governance um I think there's like a technical barrier for one just to use a wallet like outside of snapshot and there's like a real fear there I mean there's a cost in gas obviously but there's also a risk that your tokens might be lost somehow in some way that you don't understand kind of every time that you're a normal person and you're sending a transaction and you're signing it with your private key and sending it off like you're not a crypto expert necessarily like you're really really hoping that you don't lose money from this and off chain voting is a lot uh friendlier like it's not just because it's cheaper it's also safer in a lot of respects as long as you have a way of

actually enforcing that on chain which is where osnap is trying to fill that Gap but I do think there's things like for instance let's say that you have a club uh just like a real life Club of people um you're introducing new people to crypto you might give them a wallet that's loaded with some nft that gives them some voting rights and they don't need any tokens for gas they can just go on Snapshot and they can participate in the club's governance using this like custom nft and they just have that um I think there's something really cool about that like you can design new governance schemes that aren't limited to what's easy to write into a smart contract and I think we've gotten used to the idea of multi-cigs and we've gotten used to the idea of on-chain voting it's tied to a specific token

because that's the easiest thing to write a smart contract for you know it's geared towards code it's not geared towards how humans would organize themselves if they had other options it's just like those are the easiest options to actually put into a smart contract um and then I think there's things like recurring payments uh setting budgets giving specific roles to people you can write these in a human readable way where as a non-technical person you can really actively participate you can say like hey like I think like these people would be good treasury managers and I'd like to give them the ability to swap between our token and eth and usdc you know as they see fit but only do that that's something you could just write some sentences that describe what you'd like to see and then you can set that up

you don't have to write code to enforce that on chain you can use Uma to interpret the rules and enforce that on chain so I think it really opens it up to more people because it's not reasonable to expect everybody to be able to manually compose transactions or write a smart contract to participate in a Dao a dial is really meant to be for everybody and it's meant to you know be better than like a corporation or like a non-profit entity or some other kind of organizational method that doesn't work if people don't understand exactly what they're doing if they can't even read the rules I think we've talked about uma's uh voting incentives a little bit in the past on this channel but could you can you kind of high level talk about how

uma's Community is able to interpret these English language non-code types of sentences and turn them into like verifiable truth on chain yeah definitely um so I guess I should walk through the uh the steps first the way that Uma works I talked about making an assertion of some piece of data uh let's use insurance as an example so we had some insurance protocols that are integrated with us cozy finance and Sherlock and they recently had some payouts related to the oiler hack and for that it's just like a written you know description of like what is an insurable event like if Euler is hacked according to like such and such criteria uh pay it out those are human readable anybody can make a

assertion once it is hacked saying like yes it was hacked and then there's a challenge window where anybody can challenge that assertion and they can take the asserters bond because you have to put money behind it so there's always a financial incentive to dispute somebody if they're putting in bad data if they're trying to do some bad action so that's kind of the assert or disputer layer once there is a dispute which is rare because normally the assertor gets it right because of the financial incentives it goes to a vote of all the Uma token holders and it's basically a shelling point a secret commitment public reveal kind of system you've got 24 hours to submit uh your encrypted vote of what you think the correct answer is like you know yes or no for the oiler hack being an example so people can't just like read what the

majority answer is and then just vote with that like you have to actually look at the question and there's a lot of active discussion around that too there's a lot of threads kind of like reading the the detailed rules and then after that there's a reveal period And if you voted incorrectly like outside of the majority outside of the shelling Point some of your tokens get reallocated to people devoted correctly and if you staked your Uma and didn't vote at all kind of the same situation like you didn't do your job that you promised to do when you were staking so you know you're gonna lose some of your tokens to some other people and it's not super punitive it's like point one percent of the tokens that you saved so like it's a nice bonus for the people that show up to vote it's definitely

enough to make it worthwhile to show up and vote um I think a lot of the interesting disputes are around prediction markets though we have a integration with poly Market which drives a lot of um you know proposals I mean they'll settle like a dozen plus markets a day and every month or so we'll probably get a dispute and it's around some kind of legalese sort of question like the disputes are around some specific wording in the um in the market that somebody thinks that the settlement value actually wasn't correct so the last batch of them was about whether or not Trump would be indicted and there was kind of a sub clause in the rules of the market uh that references like whether or not the indictment is sealed but it says like sealed or otherwise secret and the market kind of hinged on this uh almost

legal ruling that the voters have to do in their head like is this really about the indictment being secret or is it about it being sealed and uh ultimately the way those settled is the indictment is public it was confirmed publicly it's satisfying like the rules more so to say like yes this was this indictment was made it's like the most common sense answer and that's how that was resolved but it becomes almost like a court system kind of thing but it's this decentralized fully open court system where anybody can participate very cool very cool yeah like I mean the optimistic Oracle to the sense it makes sense from like just an intuition like okay optimistically these

things are true unless it's disputed and then this dispute process is is like something going to the court and like a jury of like your on-chain peers almost because you have like this Uma Community that's you know given the evidence they're given the rationale and then they are voting on whether or not you know they they think one side or the other is true like what what are some of the applications that you're most excited about for the optimistic Oracle um like prediction markets are obviously getting a lot of traction what else do you think has the potential to harness the optimistic Oracle for like Mass adoption I mean I just really think Dow

governance I mean obviously that's what I'm personally focused on the most right now it's a real area where we can easily improve so I'm hoping to see a lot of adoption of oh snap just to connect a snapshot space and a safe for the dials that use that kind of pattern I think there's a lot of good reasons to do that and then I think once it's connected because you're able to customize your rules I think we'll see a lot of interesting experimentation around written natural language rules and you know English generally speaking right now but you know theoretically whatever language and being able to enforce that on chain like I think that's brand new um and I think that it's something that's really necessary prediction markets are obviously really cool I think there's a lot of room to expand there there's a lot of room to expand in

Insurance that's like another area where we've found a lot of product Market fit uh we have the across Bridge which we kind of built in-house at risk Labs so it's like our sister project but it's independent but uses Uma under the hood to verify that cross-chain asset relays are done correctly and I think there's a lot of cool stuff you can do with cross chain um messaging and Confirmation using Uma because uma's power is like not just verifying real world data or interpreting rules they can go and see what's happening on another chain somewhere and just deliver that to whatever chain the Oracle is you know requesting that data from which is how a cross works and I think that there's a lot of cool stuff across is doing soon where you're also sending messages along

with your relayed funds so you can have direct cross chain interactions where it's like okay I'm going to send one eth from optimism to arbitrum and then swap it for usdc and you can do that all through across then and Uma is able to verify under the hood that you know all those things are done correctly because the cross is doing like 500 relays an hour something crazy like that and it's a highly technical verification process it's really Bots proposing and disputing in the across case but I think it's really cool and this is already a long list but I'm excited about a lot of things um but I'm excited about real world assets too I mean everybody takes a crack at it it's a lot harder to make that connection between the real world and have like some kind of real world

enforceability uh with like on-chain penalties and rewards to kind of tether those things together it's really hard to do through the legal system but you can use Uma to build these incentive systems on chain about how something is managed off chain and I think that that can provide much better guarantees you could even do like Insurance like if the off-chain custodian like did something wrong you can have insurance against that eventuality happening that could run through cozy or Sherlock or anything else um so yeah I mean I think there's a lot of room to explore there and I think it's necessary because most of the stuff that's interesting is in the real world I do think that crypto is ultimately going to be the coordination mechanism for most human activity at least when it

relates to you know something with financial value and for that you need real world assets there's no way around it and you need good oracles for that yeah there's a there's a big push right now there's tons of projects that are bringing in real world assets on chain which is very exciting it's um it's kind of what was missing last uh kind of D5 came out came about and it was a lot of like uh you know re-hypothecation and different types of assets on chain but yeah bringing on uh real world assets to the chain really kind of changed the game for uh you know just the I guess the perception perhaps of Outsiders as well as the legitimacy of certain yields and of certain opportunities as well uh

risks uh it allows you to have you know kind of a different type of portfolio while still maintaining uh your your your kind of keys if you will right up till now you've pretty much only been able to buy crypto assets or own crypto assets on chain but just recently you you can own a piece of a rental uh producing property for example and have proof that you know that it's on chain that you own the keys you own this kind of fractionalized token for example and that is yours in your wallet and you the smart contract is set to produce you this much income or this much X Y and Z parameter um so it's like you can get exposure to the to different asset classes uh like

for example through like pack soap gold while still maintaining your um you know kind of keys and the options become Limitless and I think it's a big it's a big narrative right now I think there's a lot of like small cap projects that are pumping and getting excited about this and a lot of people on Twitter I've seen they're getting excited about it um so yeah that really fits right up uh uma's alley yeah for sure and I think the on-chain enforceability is really similar to oh snap conceptually like if you're the custodian for something that's off chain and you have something that's like staked on chain that if you misbehave you know that's going to get slashed and that'll go to compensate like the people that were affected by that if you're just not doing your job correctly or if you're only getting paid in a token and

that token is like not going to be valuable if um you know you're not actually handling the asset there's so many ways to approach it and I am excited by like these tokenization projects that we're seeing a lot of them still are very much like trust based though so I'd like to see more of them have like less Reliance on trust and the custodian the same way that you want to have less Reliance on trusting the multi-sig designers to carry out uh the snapshot vote you know you want to have like a way to penalize them on chain and it's easier with snapshot because you can just say like hey like this doesn't go through unless it passes on Snapshot that's still like a purely digital kind of governance thing harder with real world assets but you know you can put the incentives in place I think to make

it sustainable yeah and there's more and more like assets and accounts that are coming on chain as like we tokenize everything and ethereum becomes like the global settlement layer we're seeing more and more enforceability that we can take on certain like accounts certain assets because if your house is on chain you can have enforce things against your house if your bank account is on chain you can enforce things against your bank account so as more and more things like go on chain Uma will have more and more ways to enforce like this decentralized mechanism of uh preserving you know whatever the function is against

um against those accounts and those those assets because they'll have a way to either you know reward those who are acting truthfully or penalize against those assets of people who are acting you know maliciously or or not um not in in the truth so yeah I think I mean this is just getting like more and more or uh it's becoming more and more important as more assets come on yeah for sure and I I think particularly I'm interested in seeing how the insurance space grows around this too because that seems like the easiest catch-all where let's say that you're in Bangladesh and you invested 50 bucks into like a tokenized real estate thing in America and then it stops paying you

your percentage of the rent you're obviously not gonna like go and sue them in America about it even if you have a legal right you're just not going to do it but if you have insurance around that like hey if it stops paying out the rent that you're owed you get your 50 bucks back you know you're you feel more confident investing in that kind of thing because legal recourse is just like even if you have legal rights to it which you may or may not have really uh it's just not practical for you to do it as you know a foreign person that's not that deeply invested in it anyway you probably just write it off so I think for safety you need insurance around a lot of these things got it yeah and and there's enforceability around the assets on chain but once you reach into like

physical assets we'll kind of have those siled to the physical world so um like foreclosing on a house or something like that that is something that you know you can only incur or get penalized for in the physical world um yeah yeah what like that the um you know like Andy said like the possibilities are Limitless and like it just gets my brain and my imagination going about like all these integration opportunities for oh snap on the governance side and to and to resolve like those metrics but then the optimistic Oracle in general to resolve like these questions that happen both in the physical world and the on-chain world

um and and insurance is a huge one um there's also like like there's been talk about like contracts being nfts you know like like actually having your digital signature from your wallet sign a legally binding contract do you think optimistic Oracle could play a role in preserving those types of on-chain uh contracts or is there like they're a missing piece of enforceability that is in the physical world that uh the optimistic Oracle can't really uh penetrate on the on the on-train world it's kind of like a a combination just going back to like the insurance pattern

because I thought about this flow a little bit so if you have some off-chain rights to some asset like legally it's Incorporated it's like sitting in some Corporation that's supposed to manage it in a certain way and has some responsibilities to a dow or some token holders for instance uh somebody's gonna have to sue them and the way that this works in like real estate disputes anyway like let's say um uh in my neighborhood actually there was a really big fire uh that kind of started and like spread to a bunch of houses um and what happens there is really the insurance companies deal with it legally like they'll do a payout to the affected people and then they're going to go to court and go and like figure out like how do they get

their money back and that same kind of pattern could apply to like an on-chain off chain kind of thing and insurability is going to be a really big question like if the insurance provider let's say is saying like yeah I'll provide insurance if this um this custodian of this gold doesn't post odd it's the way they're supposed to and like isn't doing their job or they steal the gold like we're going to pay out the affected token holders and then we're going to go sue them their ability to actually go after them legally is pretty important so I think they're going to look at that in like the auth chain contracts like is this really enforceable is it in a jurisdiction where we can realistically go after them is it going to be worth it to us and if not they're not going to provide insurance for it which probably

makes it less appealing to token holders because they have no reason to think that um they would get paid out if something goes wrong but it can make it really appealing to token holders if they know that they get paid out really quickly and we've seen that with smart contract hacks like the insurance payouts are very fast like on-chain Insurance payouts are so much faster than off-chain Insurance payouts and they're more aligned to like it's not just the insurance provider is like uh no I don't think your house really burned down that bad yeah yeah I'm from Florida so that there was like a pretty massive hurricane that hit the West Coast of Florida um this past hurricane season and like I I mean people are living in like trailers you know they had houses and

their houses are demolished and there's still insurance claims happening from like three or four hurricane seasons ago because the insurance companies are just you know in this dispute and the courts are trying to get their money and it it's so backed up that it takes years like several years to end up getting an insurance payout from a result of like what is a relatively common occurrence in Florida of Hurricane insurance but you know just the process is so inefficient that it it gets bogged down and gets backed up with all these claims um and and you know hopefully um on-chain enforceability like if we do

have a like this global settlement layer where a lot of like the insurance uh assets whatever the collateral is for these insurance companies are actually held on chain then you know it could almost just use osnap and the optimistic Oracle like did this hurricane happen you know did this house you know get wrecked yes okay take from the insurance provider's wallet send to you know the the insurance claim wallet or something like that you know maybe not just you know one transaction type simple but it could uh make the process much more efficient it could actually be one transaction like getting into the technical weeds like let's say that um

it's an insurance payout and it's kind of like a self-service thing like you can come and say like hey my house you know burned down and post all your evidence on ipfs and like reference your arguments in the terms of like this contract that was written out and then shared on chain and just say like I you know I'm claiming my hundred thousand dollars and the insurance company then has that challenge window to like think about it and dispute it um or third parties could do the same too if they're like this looks completely fake like I check the news and like everything's fine like this hurricane didn't happen this is just a lie um third parties can dispute that too but in the most common case it's probably you're telling the truth you're saying the amount that you're owed and the insurance company is not going to

post a bond and risk it uh to dispute you on that if they're like yeah that that seems right um and then you just have a callback function done on settlement where you just get your money so you might have like a pretty long challenge window like let's say you make this challenge window a week just for safety because claims could be really big and they could be complex and people need to think about it a week is still a lot faster than three years obviously and everybody has money on the line it doesn't really cost the insurance company that much to just like deny deny deny but with Uma it does and there is a bounded endpoint to it like this dispute will be resolved after like a couple of days after like the challenge period yeah and is there like a is there like a

dispute to the dispute you know like or is it one once it's done it's done like yeah single step escalation to the vote of all the Uma token holders so you have like a bounded kind of process it's not continuously disputing which I think a lot of people do find more appealing about our system there's a couple of other optimistic Oracle systems like um Claris and uh reality.eth's escalation game which are kind of built on like larger and larger appeals or like going to higher and higher courts Uma is just like single step once there's a dispute it goes to the highest possible Court which is the vote of all the Uma token holders okay got it yeah and then and then it's like right away okay you know what what

percentage would you say is is disputed is it something like one percent two percent not even like not even it's it's not even close and I I would uh preface that by saying that a cross is probably like our most frequent user um well across and poly market so the way that a cross works is uh it's doing like 500 plus relays an hour and then the claim that it actually makes is like a bundle of all of the relayer refunds saying like all these relays on all these chains were done correctly and fees were calculated correctly and like the refunds that were requested are supposed to go in this place so it's like very technical and like bot driven across disputes incredibly rare uh at 500 relays an hour I think you get a

dispute for a cross maybe like once every three months um and that's usually like uh if like infuria is getting overloaded or something like something crazy is happening on one of the chains that a cross touches like arbitrary was just going bonkers about something and like nodes get out of sync and a bot gets confused and makes a mistake um other cases people have tried to attack across which has been interesting and they just get disputed so they'll just be like uh they'll load a a wallet with Aztec connector tornado cash or something and then be like I'm owed a one million dollar refund because I did a relay and they get disputed in like two minutes by a bot that's like nope that's an easy one um and then I think poly Market's the other one those disputes like I said

that are more about wording like they're very legalistic disputes they're not bot driven at all they're very manual it's like humans reading it and thinking like I don't know about this um but those are really rare too I I would say maybe we get a poly Market dispute lately it's been once every couple of weeks um which is more often than usual and because they happen so infrequently it makes sense to escalate to the highest court right away because there there aren't a lot of disputes that happen so you want to make sure that the ones that do happen are resolved correctly yeah for sure and you know you want to make sure the incentives are in place so that like the asserter is not making mistakes that it's going to be really costly for them um I think for

poly Market if you make an assertion and you're wrong you're going to lose thousands of dollars if you make an assertion in your right you'll make ten dollars as like your proposal reward so you're incentivized to like make proposals fast because it's like oh like the Indiana Pacers won the game that's really easy to verify that's an easy ten dollars if you're the first to propose but like don't get it wrong never get it wrong you're gonna like wipe out like if you've got to write 80 times in a row and got it wrong once uh that's going to wipe out all of your earnings from like those 80 times in a row um and if you start seeing a lot of disputes there's probably something wrong with uh like the way that the questions are being worded like they're too ambiguous or the bonds aren't really

set in like an ideal way because disputes are like not the good case ideally you uh catch everything at that assertive layer the asserter is always right disputers always have a good incentive to like catch them but disputes should stay pretty rare yeah interesting stuff now that you guys are you know you've shipped the oh snap uh release what what are you guys working on next we shipped a V2 of oh snap like just we have like a pull request up right now with a snapshot and um a zodiac it's funny like we we started working on this a while ago so it's like a new version of the module um which you can you're safe that's targeting our latest Oracle contract uh

we have a new Oracle dap that's coming out um probably next week which is really improved I mean it's like using the new Oracle contract obviously but it's like just pulling in a lot more information it's much faster much more pleasant to use um we launched staking too that was a huge technical challenge so we have like a totally revamped staking system and for me personally I'm just like full board focusing on these o snap deployments finding out what those need figuring out maybe what features we add to ostap in the future but we should be launching osnap relatively soon with the across style you know naturally they're kind of like uh like a sister project and very much into osnap we're in pretty Advanced uh stages with shapeshift as well which

really wants to stay decentralized and they've used safe snap in the past too with reality and they like the idea of using Uma for execution and there's a bunch of other dials too like major major ones which are interested for like regulatory or efficiency reasons so we'll just keep pushing forward on that it's almost like an Enterprise sales cycle though like it it takes maybe 10 minutes to be honest to set up an osnap module and connect it to your snapshot space like it's incredibly easy to set up but it's going to take like a month to kind of go through like you know talking through with the dial making sure everybody's comfortable with it it's a it's a major you know kind of governance component so you want to make sure that everybody is comfortable with it yeah yeah that the uh the demo video

you did was was like spot on very very easy to follow and and easy to integrate but I can I can understand how like the Dow would need it would just take some time to like incorporate it into the cycle of how a vote would pass and a transaction would would be made through the safe yeah and I think that also um a lot of people don't pay as close attention to snapshot as they should because snapshot is just not enforceable like if some if a bad vote sneaks through snapshot it sort of doesn't matter in a lot of cases because the multi-state can just be like I'm not going to do that oh snap kind of changes that so um you know it's kind of a culture shift too because the snapshot votes matter now like they're enforceable that could help the voter

participation that Andy was talking about earlier because now people kind of have to pay attention yeah exactly and like they feel empowered because right now you go to Snapchat you vote and you're like okay I mean I expressed my opinion but like we'll see what the multi-stig signers really think and sometimes they ignore what happens on Snapshot that's happened in the past and hugely controversial cases yeah well John I mean this was an absolute pleasure that's about all I got Andy uh you know what what have you got yeah that's good no I mean I another use case that I just think of is just any disputes like you guys kind of touched on there's so many from like Merchant to buyer and you know Insurance debt collection court case I mean it just goes on and on and on so yeah the use

cases are very are very um unlimited and it's and it's exciting and then specifically for D5 and for governance usages oh snap seems to be kind of a step in the right direction for a lot of protocols and um yeah it just makes things more seamless and easier and also kind of aligns with the permissionless kind of uh Vibe of defy um just kind of things happen because they're they're hard-coded in code is law type of uh sentiment which um yeah it has a lot of good benefits so yeah I appreciate you coming on John for and sharing what you guys are building and I wish you the best of luck it sounds great so far and uh user of a cross over here and um excited for the updates

awesome yeah thanks for having me on um and definitely reach out about any other like Integrations that you want to do that is uma's greatest challenge is you can use it for so many things that we just want to like hear from other people what do they want to use it for and how do we support those teams so um definitely ping me on Twitter at JD shut if you're working on Uma or interested in it and we can connect you with the right people and get you some engineering support awesome cheers cheers guys yeah