NFT Marketplace Wars | Panel

Transcript

welcome bankless nation to this week's panel this is a special panel because we have our friend friend of the podcast carly riley joining us to replace ryan sean adams ryan is uh he's past ryan's bedtime so we're bringing carly from the overpriced jpegs podcast to help co-host this nft marketplace panel and that's what we're talking about today nft marketplaces what's good about them what's lacking in them what's what do we want to see in uh innovation with nft marketplaces carly welcome back to the bankless rss feed and to the bank that's youtube how's it going thank you it is going well this is part of my long con to replace ryan permanently as co-founder and uh ce co-ceo of bankless

i'm pumped to be here i uh overpriced jpeg is having a lot of fun over on rs rss feed but it's always nice to collab with you and hang out with the broader crew i have thoroughly been enjoying overpriced jpegs and all the content that you guys have been putting out over there and we also have one of your reoccurring co-hosts co-host co-moderators guests uh host of the moment of zenika lovely jpegs to give a hint as to who we're talking about absolutely we're gonna get into who we have on uh for this show a little bit later but first we have to talk about our uh friends over at alto ira because alto ira is how you get away from the shackles of paying

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lists and get uh your crypto in a tax optimized fashion so you don't you have to sell the minimum amount which is what we like we like to do uh carly let's talk about who is on our panel and also what we are going to talk about uh clocking in to this panel we have returning guests eric connor and dc investor i think people will be familiar with these two we've had eric connor on the bowl case for ethereum uh podcast as well as dc investor we've had dc investor on i think this will be his sixth time on this show so friends of the podcast and also we're bringing somebody over from the overpriced jpegs ecosystem you want to tease who that is carly i would love to roy basin obscene we've

talked about this how we pronounce his last name roy bassine also better known as zenika33 i talk about seneca all the time he is a fountain of wisdom in the nft space amazing collector thinker he has a sub stack he has a podcast called two board apes and most importantly he is a recurring guest on overpriced jpegs to give us all sorts of nft updates macro market updates uh really excited to have him here because i love talking to him and he's also a tremendous person and carly of course we are talking about nft marketplaces and overall the nft industry in this present moment which seems to be going through a little bit of a conversation phase shift i would say especially with the introduction of the looks rare uh nft marketplaces people are starting to open up their

horizons as to what an nfc marketplace could do and look like carly what are you excited about to hear on the show this uh today yeah well i think we are in a little bit of a transition phase and zenika and i have actually talked about this before that it's it's great to see other platforms like a looks rare putting more pressure on openc more competition just means better results for us hopefully as users but i i like i could hear these three panelists talk about pretty much anything and i i'm really excited to get their thoughts on sort of the current landscape and where we're going from here right like how will social be incorporated in all this we're seeing twitter start to incorporate web three and nfts but how will these web3 marketplaces incorporate social elements or all these things that

i think carry a lot of promise excited to get folks take on on where we're going with all that absolutely so let's go ahead and get right into that conversation because i want to talk about that just as much as you do but first before we get there we have to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible polygon is ethereum's largest and most vibrant scaling solution to date with millions of monthly users and all of the biggest defy apps the polygon ecosystem has turned into a blossoming metropolis of defy activity transactions on polygon are quick and cheap allowing users the freedom to achieve their default goals all while being economically anchored to ethereum but polygon isn't just the proof of stake sidechain the polygon team is building a suite of scaling solutions including polygon hermes maiden nightfall and xero all with

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human counterparties or centralized intermediaries just autonomous code on ethereum input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy the uniswap grants program is accepting applications for grants do you have something of value that you think you want to contribute to the uniswap ecosystem no matter how big or small your idea is you can apply it for a unique grant at uniswopgrants.org and help steer unit swap in the direction that you think it should go thank you uniswap for sponsoring bankless all right and we are back to kickstart our nft marketplace panel which i'm really excited for i know that the guys from openc from foundation from zora from super rare from looks rare shout out to all you guys i hope you guys are

listening to this because this one is for you we want to unpack what does what do the nft connor sewers of the world want to see in their ideal nft marketplace and what are they overall looking at in in the world of nfts once again clocking in in the bottom left corner we got dc investor he's been on the show for his sixth time this time uh an nfc connoisseur with one of the my favorite uh nft portfolios you can check it out on his twitter it's linked there he's a long-term thinker which is why we love him as a guest on bank list dc welcome back to the show you're also muted by the way sorry guys hey thanks for having me on david really excited to be here with you

and carly and the rest of the crew here today next up another recurring guest we got eric connor who is an ethereum og he's participated in just about every single type of market that ethereum has ever produced and nfts is no exception exception eric welcome back to the show yeah thanks david it's true i do like to trade it like jpeg so pumped to talk about uh nfts and then carly do you want to introduce guest number three absolutely i said it earlier i will say it again one of my favorite thinkers in the nft space he has an awesome podcast an awesome sub stack he also launched his own collection recently zen academy gonna plug that for you zenika also a proud zen academy holder here and a recurring uh co-host segment host on overpriced jpegs our other bankless

podcast that i host and uh just a great thinker in the space overall well guys that's cool thanks for having me sorry i'm trigger happy let's go ahead and get right into it with our very first question which is going to be the million dollar question just to get us oriented i want to throw this one at eric first eric why do humans trade jpegs in the first place and what should nft platforms be optimized for in order to really just facilitate that behavior yeah i mean i first would say i know david you and i have had this conversation offline many times but humans given the ability to speculate on anything will do it and like the one thing we've realized over time with ethereum is

it allows anybody to speculate on anything and anybody can spin up a market for absolutely anything and you know there was a tweet today from like elon musk and mcdonald's and they mentioned mcdonald's tweeted some random token and someone instantly launched a token and it went up like 10 percent so that that's just like what ethereum enables right so you bring in like the history of art and obviously art has forever been an investment for people a collection for people um you bring that on chain you make it accessible and most importantly you give like instant price discovery and liquidity to art which in the traditional art world is very hard to come by um people are going to be interested in that right um now like what what should ultimately these marketplaces strive for i think we're in

that discovery phase um i mean i'm sure it's going to be a big topic here going forward in this conversation but clearly i think giving some type of revenue back to people that help build your platform whether it's token holders or whatnot and not just taking all the fees and royalty to yourself and building a true community right like we've seen that with looks rare over the last few weeks people have kind of poked at open sea in the past for that so i think that's going to be the battle going forward but yeah i mean humans just love to speculate i mean we speculate on literally on rocks right so why not speculate on jpegs on the blockchain d.c i want to throw that same question to you why do humans trade jpegs and what about our platforms that we trade

our jpegs on really need to um build around in order to facilitate this well i think that you know just echo the points that eric made but i would also add that i think people are you know the idea of digital scarcity is still relatively new for a lot of people and so for a lot of people entering the crypto space nfts are actually becoming some of their first exposure and they're excited about the ability to kind of own these unique digital assets because it's so foreign to everything their entire experience with computers prior to this point so i think there is some of that novelty but i think a lot of it is very primal and it's just kind of within our dna and our nature as eric mentioned as far as what marketplaces should be

optimizing for i really think that there's an opportunity for marketplaces which really serve the collections that they're offering up to the buyers of them and i think right now we have very much kind of like a fits all to how we're approaching marketplaces but the way that you're selling an in-game item is perhaps not the same way that you should be selling like a fine art jpeg or nft and i think there's a lot of opportunity there for new entrance to come in and and and play that kind of role so zenika i'll call you out here and say i know you helped to advise looks rare before their launch you know i didn't advise them i was i got in on the strategic strategic ground to invest

okay i got it and you were excited about the idea of a new platform so as you were thinking about a new platform and a big competitor to open c like what were you hoping that this platform optimized for and and did i mean same question but you're you're kind of deep in this yeah so i mean largely what eric said as well uh rewarding the users of the platform i think is is huge and it's sort of a gripe that people have had with openc for a while again them taking all the fees and on top of that you know there are all sorts of issues that probably still are with openc that people aren't loving like the usability and like the lack of customer support obviously whether there should be excellent customers customer support or not is you know when you get fully

decentralized maybe that's not a thing but um we'll have that true with openc and so it looks rare comes along and says hey we're going to build from the ground up and have a token that we edge up to everyone who used nc and who use the platform going forward so they can you know partake in the the revenue and um yeah it seems like that they've got good customer service so far but you know clearly it's very difficult to build a marketplace otherwise we would have seen 100 competitors to open c before now um and even looks rare it's like you know i've invested in it's not the best platform it has things that they need to improve upon but you know if they continue to do that i can see them continuing to claw market share away from openc well i think like everyone here from uh

just personal experience i've used the looks rare platform because i've also used openc i think everyone has used openc uh all the viewers that's kind of even you know the external world open sees at this point synonymous with the nft industry so in addition to open c and perhaps in addition to looks rare too what uh non-openc nft platforms that you uh marketplaces have you guys used and what really stands out about them eric do you have a non uh open c platform that you enjoy and why do you enjoy it yeah i would say first that comes to mind is probably foundation but you could also put like super rare and zoro in there right and like to me where those differ is they're kind of more focusing on like the one of

ones which i still personally think is going to be a next big wave in nfts right everyone's focused on the 10k profile pictures and these collections um even art blocks right like a thousand generated per collection i there's definitely going to be a wave of one of ones where that you know that is for people that don't know an artist creates literally just one piece like a traditional artist like say like a van gogh right um and then you just collect that and that artist becomes popular and then those pieces go up we're really seeing that with x copy x copy does some collections but he has a lot of one-on-ones that are now selling for millions of dollars and i think we're gonna see that wave and those other platforms i'll take foundation i just really appreciate foundation's ui but um

by the user experience those apps are kind of going for more of that right so it's not like these you know there's there's a lot of competitors now but they're really not necessarily even going after the same space i think we're seeing a little bit of a divide between you know the one of ones and the collections and i'm sure like looks rare and open c of course you can like trade them on there but it's kind of weird they show up as like um foundation tokens like not really the artists and stuff so i think we're going to see this wave coming through as well um and you know those platforms are going to be big in their own right as people kind of start discovering this more unique art now what's interesting right is like a lot of the power around some of these

collections is the communities they build some of these you know communities you know like if you go on like the doodles discord right i think there's like 30 000 people in there um if you go into like your one-of-one artist there's probably only like 100 200 people in some of them because not many people have them because they didn't make a lot so that's where it gets interesting right because community kind of is everything in crypto dc i want to ask that same question to you what non-open c platforms do you enjoy the most why do you enjoy them but if you could also build on what eric said if you want about how different marketplaces are finding specialization in different types of sectors of the nft world anything you want to add to all of these things sure yeah i mean i think a lot of the

marketplaces that i've used outside of openc have that kind of specialization so i think like super rare for example offers a really nice curated experience in a lot of it is one-of-ones but they also have that curation of the artists that are exhibited there and they offer that secondary market for their own pieces and i think that's a really interesting utility that i expect to see more from projects moving forward i think also just the crypto punks marketplace is actually a really good example of a mar the original pro one of the original nft marketplaces no fees i think that the crypto punk's kind of near a lot of really interesting mechanics even pre-dating c721 standards that i think that's going to come back

around and i think like genie xyz is also a really interesting one because they offer this aggregator service and for those of you listeners who might not be familiar with genie genie is one of a few aggregator apps that are come to the floor and the way that they work is they basically index listings across all these different marketplaces and they serve them up to you and you can then buy the ones that you want you can look for the lowest price you can also list through them i think there's a lot of opportunity for that and i think actually aggregator i know we'll probably talk about this a little bit later but are going to help kind of flip the script a little bit because i think a lot of times we're thinking in like this web 2 mindset of we all need to go

to one marketplace and everything needs to be there but the properties of web3 actually allow us to be decentralized in in the marketplaces that we choose to list and buy things from and i think aggregators are going to help us achieve that vision i i want to ask zennika in a minute i want to ask you more about where you see this all going what features you think you'd like to see more of in these nft marketplaces and you know maybe what what features you'd like to see uh fixed but i want to give you an opportunity to talk about other marketplaces that that you're potentially interested as well and interested in as well and um also on this question of of sort of specialization do you think we see it a little bit in the art market do you

think that'll be the case for gaming and for you know all these different industries that this is disrupting ticketing these will all be sort of separate places that you'll you'll go to yeah no i definitely think that's where we're heading um i mean my answer to the other marketplaces i've used and like are pretty much the same foundation super rare i think that as time goes on we are going to see more niche marketplaces pop up so sort of like what dc was saying before you'll have a marketplace for gaming assets because if you if you're buying a gaming asset it'd be nice to see what it looks like in a 3d world you know around maybe you can try it out try it on the skin try it on your avatar and art you obviously want you know looking at art and open sea isn't just

the best viewer experience we're going to see more and more niche marketplaces pop up and then aggregators will be where a lot of people do their shopping you know so to use annika still like what do you feel like is is working right now in our system and what are the big areas that we want to see improved the big features that you want to see starting to incorporate into these marketplaces um i think looks rare introduced a good thing with like the bid on collection and bid on on traits aspect i like that i think what i personally use a lot is just like the stats page of say open c where you can see like where the recent activity has been over the last 24 hours after the

last seven days you get a good feel for like what's trending what the market is liking um something that i don't think exists yet and i think should and will and may be controversial but is like targeted ads like they know what's in our wall they can find out what's in our wallets you know why isn't everyone's home page when they go to open c a bit more targeted towards you know this person only ever buys photography nfts why are we showing them 10k curated feed it could be ads or you know it's also just a curated feed exactly yeah it would make for a better user experience i think and allow the users to discover things that they're more interested in that they may not have otherwise at least give us that option i think eric i know you're a big fan of just you

know analytics and metrics and insights what's what would you like to see as a feature for built into some of these nft platforms with regards to like analytics is that is that a big untapped part of this nft industry is the combination of an uh nft marketplace with nft analytics yeah it absolutely is i mean like for example i woke up this morning there had been like 40 crypto punk sales and like you have to like go to crypto's website and just kind of like do it yourself like oh there's like 40 punks sold from like 65 to 80 like who's buying them like i don't really know of any like there's some like dune dashboards out there and stuff but like analytics is not tapped into at all especially like like immediately notifying you analytics

right meaning like oh this guy just swept five board apes and this is a heavy hitter right like should i go over here everyone's got their like twitter bots that they're subscribed to for notifications but nft analytics are definitely lacking especially around like who's buying you know we always see this with eth right like oh a whale just bought a bunch of eath or you know today we saw exchange in clothes like we don't really have that i mean there's some stuff out there but it could definitely get better right and just in general the viewing on these sites and kind of like the market inefficiencies of like bidding and counter offering and like who's bidding on your stuff are they like low balling everybody or they had an actual serious bidder like what do they own like it's very

tedious if you want to go have an nft day meaning like you want to go like pick some stuff out or list some of your stuff and try it you know get some liquidity to buy other stuff like it takes hours and hours and like to me that's still the benefit of being in a token versus nft is like the efficiencies right on a token you've got all these analytics you can get out quick you can get in click and this is going to be solved through things like say nftx and i know there's a bunch of stuff launching around like you know collateralizing nfts and all this so we're going to get more efficient markets um but yeah it doesn't the analytics goes along with this because it doesn't quite feel like an efficient market yet but especially with the fragmentation of liquidity amongst sites

and all that stuff but we'll get there dc i want to turn the same question to you what about the nft marketplace is working or perhaps what is really broken and really frustrating you when you go and do your nft stuff so i think i mean you know in in and a lot of us will point to openc and be critical of it but i do think that they have done a tremendous job in terms of providing a marketplace which has allowed this economy to scale to the point that it has and i think that's been incredible however i think you know riffing off of the point that i made earlier the idea that we'll all just use one marketplace forever and not really anything else probably is not tenable it isn't really compatible with a web 3 decentralization point of view so i actually think you

know if i'm going to articulate what i think the future of nft marketplaces looks like i think we're going to eventually see every project basically have their own marketplace that is designed and tailored around maybe like a custom ui or some standard ui elements that can be recycled across projects but is designed to promote discoverability and and quality display of their project's assets and you're going to have aggregators which are basically aggregating the activity and i think even openc will basically become an aggregator as well because then it becomes who can provide the best experience to the customer in terms of the discovery process and i think that discovery process is actually something that's really important and it is lacking in a lot of ways because if you

want to go like discover all of the work that xcopy or dimitri cerniac has done right now it is like extremely extremely difficult to do that you've got to kind of look at their link tree in their twitter profile and you got to like piece it together and then you're not even finding all of the pieces and there were actually a lot of really easy opportunities for people to come in and buy up some of these pieces cheaper from big name artists because they're such an inefficiency in just finding these right now you know and the stuff that does get listed on openc going back to that like i said it kind of is a one size fits all model it's more like going to like a walmart or to ebay rather than to an art gallery or an auction house you know i mean and look at the success of like the

big auction houses like sotheby's and christie's they have been creating these pretty i mean they haven't been tremendous there's been a lot of criticism but they have done a good job at creating these experiences around when they sell things and that brings in more high-end buyers and people are excited to buy another thing that i think is not working or is going to be an issue is fees to do these kinds of trades are still too high and a lot of that does come down to ethereum gas phase so i think actually within probably a year or two a lot of trading is going to be on ethereum layer 2s from assets that are initialized on layer twos or assets that get brought over there from layer ones so those are a few of the things that i think are not working today but they're

solutions in the pipeline do you think we'll get to the point where there are [Music] you know regular sort of irl minting experiences i think about crypto citizens if anybody's tracked that project they bring you to their site to their gallery in whatever city and have you meant in person when i hear you talking about sort of what christie's and species are able to do do you think we'll see more of that down the line where where there actually is this sort of physical component to minting nfts more so than we have today totally i think that we're kind of in the early stages of bridging actually this digital world into the physical one but the the groups that have done that have been very successful i mean like the board apes they've now created real world utility for their mfts and

for the people who hold them as kind of membership cards and passes into their parties and things like that i think also like art blocks establishing their house and marfa as like a location in a place where people who are passionate about generative art go and make a pilgrimage so i i to go visit there but i think that there there are a ton of opportunities for mixing these digital and real world experiences that we barely tapped into i'm curious broadly on y'all's thoughts to how how social media and i don't mean that isn't necessarily our existing social media platforms right but how social sort of signaling etc plays into all this seneca i'm curious you talked about these curated feeds do you see these platforms ultimately

becoming their own sort of social media platforms or some of them how do you think the kind of social part of this gets integrated in the long term you're immune to xenica you're muted sorry i think um yeah we're such social creatures obviously and so much of what like the buying and selling in the nft market and the crypto market happens is because we see people on twitter say hey i bought this and then everyone starts firm owing in and it's because of other people buying it it makes sense that marketplaces or aggregators will integrate that into their into their platforms whether it's uh like literally you know a twitter feed of people like posting about it or if it's just like

analytics like eric was talking about you know this wallet this whale this person just swept five board apes pops up on your feed you're like okay let me go click on that and check that out and then you can maybe click on their profile um they'll have analytics of you know what what they own it's all it's all public it's all out there it's once that's more easily able to be visualized and like deciphered i think people will be yeah i think marketplaces will have that integrated for sure eric i want to allow you to answer a similar question about social media elements built into nft platforms but i also know um you're just also interested in the financialization side of just all things ethereum so there's also things like you know fractional and you already mentioned nftx what other just like

add-ons or plug-ins could nft marketplaces add to their features in addition just like social media stuff yeah to me this is the next wave we're going to see here in 2022 on nfts and it's basically merging d5 and nfts right so you've got a lot of people across the world that want to get involved in board apes or punks or whatever it is right but not many people can afford them but you'd still like to get exposure to it right and this is like one of the cool things that theorem enables that isn't enabled in the traditional world is hey let's fractionalize a crypto punk and thousands of people can own a part of it and if crypto punks go up you make money if they go down you don't and

you're a part of the community now right so fractionalizations of that t is going to be huge just from people wanting exposure of course and then there's a ton of untapped potential in using nfts for collateral and borrowing against them and speculating on them right like that's going to be a big wave now this gets really tricky of course because the nft space is generally illiquid and hard to price so i think early on it's only going to be stuff like grails right like art blocks grails crypto punks board apes like that's pretty much all you're going to be able to use probably as collateral because they stay relatively stable but yeah all these things that just allow you to add d5 to art right like my favorite thing about ethereum is

analyzing what what things does ethereum enable that in the traditional world outside of ethereum you couldn't do right we've seen some stuff in d fight around that i think my bull case in general on nfts and i've said multiple times for over a year now i think nfts are going to be 100 times bigger than we all think now and that's because of things that you can do with them i mean the most obvious is what i mentioned in kind of in the opener is just bringing instant liquidity and price finding to nfcs through just marketplaces that ethereum enables um but bringing like fractionalization and defy aspects to art i mean that's just next level right it's going to push us it's going to push them even further and you know it's going to make people more interested for

sure do you think adding in these financialization components is actually the responsibility of the marketplaces or do you think that that's kind of should be left up to the rest of the ecosystem like should it really be a button on open c to fractionalize your board ape like or where do you think this feature should uh lie yeah i mean if openc had the bandwidth so they would probably be doing it but i'm assuming they're they don't have it at the moment because then they would really corner the marketplace i think we're going to see it come from smaller teams and definitely what i've seen coming through like you know teams launching looking for funding like there's going to be a huge wave in the next six to nine months of these applications um and most of the things i've seen they're all going to be

independent teams i you know eventually will like an open c integrate like a smaller team or like acquire them like they just acquired dharma for example will they try to acquire teams to bring f fractionalization onto platform maybe but from what i've seen that's not these marketplaces focus at the moment um we're going to have these smaller teams build these let's call them nft legos um and then maybe the platforms will you know try to swallow these teams or integrated or whatever it might be i'm curious about like fraud and spam prevention which i feel like is is personal to a lot of people who have been screwed uh you know whether by the fault of some of these marketplaces or not uh dc i'm curious where you think this goes how you think we can get

better on this if we can you know how much of this is sort of out of the control of the marketplaces and it's sort of user be wary or beware or how much can we really do to prevent people from being um you know spammed or or otherwise hurt yeah i mean at least from a spam perspective look i think i get a bunch of nfts in my wallet that are not really things that i want to have on my wallet but i just accept that they're there and by the way if you receive nfts like that for anyone who's listening i just advise you not to really bother to move them because it's not worth your it's not worth interacting with the contract it's not worth paying the gas there's really no point in doing it i think the fraud piece is something that is kind of

interesting so one what we have seen many of these marketplaces do is they have started to take on this role of verifying collections openc has been doing this for a while that also means that they decide what what assets can get listed on their platform and a lot of people say well that's not permissionless that's not censorship resistant but i think there is a trade-off there that you know they do provide some utility by actually doing that filtering and that's like the first level of filtering that you get however we've also seen some kind of troubling situations where nfts have been stolen from a user's wallet typically because the user has made some kind of mistake in it whether they gave their private key to someone or whatever we've all seen this happen a bunch with

nft communities i mean there have been a lot of board apes that have been stolen in this way and there's some really unfortunate stuff that can happen there so what what happens is the thief acquires that nft they then list it on openc at a price below the floor price it sells basically immediately and then whoever has bought that nft now owns what is effectively stolen property through no knowledge of their own then later the person from whom that nft was stolen reports that to openc and says hey this mft was stolen and really what happens is that person got stolen from and also to some extent the person who bought it got stolen from because now that nft cannot be sold on openc again and that's apparently a

legal requirement for operating a marketplace and i talked to someone at openc and they kind of said look even if it was like if you go to if you go and buy a stolen bike the police can actually like take that bike from you and say hey this was part of a crime and was stolen we need to seize this and so it's just kind of one of those terrible situations which i think reduces confidence for the buyer that's buying these very expensive nfts in some cases and then they're told hey you can't list it here and you'll never be able to sell it on openc again now luckily there are other platforms now that are more decentralized like looks rare where you might be able to list it there you may be able to listen unrarable but i think that some of these issues i don't really

know how we get out of them legally but i think they're going to continue to be things that we need to think about dc you bring up a really good point about the points on the decentralization spectrum that many of these nft platforms optimize differently for and while it is really nice that we have alternatives to open c where you can take your board ape to a different uh platform if for some reason it gets frozen on openc at the end of the day open c is also the main place of liquidity um so it's permissionless but still also kind of permissioned if all of if openc just does have that monopoly on top of liquidity and these are some of the questions that we want to get to in addition to what i think are also some really other fun questions such as why

do nfts on layer 2 kind of rub people the wrong way and do we think the ethereum l1 will maintain dominance in the nft marketplace as well as twitter verification talk as well so we're going to get into all those uh conversations right after we talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible so you've got some money and you want to spend you me shopping now bro when you should be saving you'll never buy a house at this rate but what if you could spend and save at the same time for the enlightened kind with inquiring minds a new world awaits set yourself free with completely

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if you want to bridge your assets quickly and securely go to across dot to to bridge your assets between eth optimism arbitrary or boba networks we are back we have a bunch of good topics to talk about in the second half of this show but i want to circle back first uh quickly here on this question of of social and social media and platforms and how this plays out dc i'm curious on your thoughts i mean i'm personally surprised that we haven't seen more like i like you know i like something and then i see more of it that curated feed thing we were talking about with zenika how do you see this playing out are there is this going to happen on the marketplaces are we going to see it evolve in some different way where does this activity ultimately take

place in your view sure well i think you know it's really difficult to put all of this responsibility on marketplaces and i think actually moving forward marketplaces they are going to be for discovery but it's really going to be where people buy and sell not experience their nfts because they're not really told to do that appropriately and two there's just so many kinds of nfts you might be better off experiencing them somewhere else so i think we're going to see a proliferation of gallery apps and we already see a few like gallery.so is one that i'm very fond of because they have a pretty clean format you've also seen platforms like hype launch with more social features so i think that you're going to have a lot of different ways to curate and present your collection to

the world i'll never send anyone to my open seat page because it's a hot mess but i would rather be like hey come look at my gallery.so page which is linked on my twitter by the way if you want to check it out but that's where i arrange all my nfts exactly how i want that's part of my collector's journey and i think people need to connect with their nfts in that way i think also this rise of like the twitter hexagons is like pretty interesting and for those who have been under a rock over the past week we've had um twitter now allow users to verify their nfts on the platform in their profile pictures and basically if you do this it turns your little profile picture into hexagon which signals that you own the nft behind that profile picture i think like

sharing and using nfts like that is going to become really common and i think i think the next logical step for twitter is to like add a little side profile page that you could visit to see hey what nfts might i be selling and do you want to buy them you know i mean i don't think i don't think that's a far leap from where we are but i think the final point that i'll leave you with here carly is we're really going to see deeper integration of these kinds of concepts with these metaverse apps and i think it was zenika who mentioned this idea of being able to look at your 3d nfts in 3d with some kind of 3d metaverse right and there's a bunch of them that are emerging right now but being able to interact with them and even have like a

shopping experience within that that doesn't feel like you're on ebay and i think that's like the future of where we're headed with some of those well what i think is so interesting about that is something i'm fascinated with are some of these like mega apps that are much more common in china and and throughout asia like i don't know folks know about this but it's really this merging of social and commerce and that's sort of what you're describing here is sort of shopping and hanging out with friends and sharing all in one place which it has surprised me that some of our web 2 social media apps haven't leaned into that more is is what you're picturing as you talk about some of the the gallery piece of this like you and all your friends will have your your gallery account your art will be up

there i'll scroll through a feed i'll see all my friends i'll like your picture i'll follow somebody new there's a collector i love it'll it'll feel much like these sort of web 2 apps to a certain extent but it's it's really about highlighting and focusing on your nfts and the way that you want to present them is that what you're picturing there absolutely like if i have a gallery app i could imagine like even having a special section of that saying these are the pieces that i have for sale and being able to articulate the story behind them and so on but i think like this idea of like when you're in one of these metaverse apps like nifty island is one that i'm involved with like if you're in nifty island and you have and i've got my museum there i can even have

like a for sale sign next to the gallery placard and say hey you can buy this piece if you want to so i think that that's that's kind of the future that i think when we talk about metaverse plus marketplaces that's where i see it headed it's sort of that financialization of everything piece that eric's talking about too in its own right way right like you're just walking through everywhere now is a is a marketplace and everything can be speculated on everything can be bought it's either a utopia or a dystopia but yeah and i mean to that point the concept of a marketplace historically has been to allow the buyer and seller to have some degree of mutual trust and the reality of like a platform like ethereum and web3 is you don't need an intermediary for that you just need the

smart contract so yeah you can trust anybody halfway around the world without any intermediary and you can do a direct transaction with them and i think we'll see a lot of that david i think you're muted thank you one thing that we definitely need to see happen in order to see broader nft adoption uh is cheaper access to nfts the ethereum l1 has already priced out most of the globe and something about nfts on layer twos just rubs people the wrong way at least that's my interpretation of things eric do you have an opinion about why that is or if that's true or true or not so i agreed with you until i would say a few weeks ago when i started going down

the treasure dial route and i'm fascinated by this project now it's like blowing my mind just yesterday they've launched this thing called bridge world and it's just if you haven't poked around with it just go poke around they've got basically like staking and economics involved with a game they've got an nft marketplace it's like play to earn it's it's pretty wild right so i think we're seeing this migration delay or two and i don't see layer one to layer two migration of nfts being a very big thing necessarily i think native layer two nft apps is where things are gonna really take off like treasure dell for example launched on layer two well i take that back their original staking was on layer one they did a migration but like a lot of the new stuff has just been on layer two right so i think now you can start

experimenting with stuff like this more gamification because you have to do more transaction fees no one wants to do that on layer one right so i agree that like early on like the collections launched on layer two just didn't look as good the marketplaces weren't there especially on like alt layer ones i don't know what they're doing on alt layer lands with art but you can basically pick them out of it like out of a line which one was launched on a deer and what wasn't um but i think we're about to see a prolification of native layer two nft projects i think we're seeing it on the defy side um where a lot of just native layer two defy apps are really taking off um it's it's for nft's next but it's not gonna just be launching a collection in a marketplace it's gonna be taking it further because

you can do more transactions and that's gonna be around gamification of this stuff seneca do you have any experiences on l2 nft shenanigans any insights or actions that you've taken and experienced while doing nft stuff on layer 2 yeah i mean i recently jumped down the bridge world treasure magic ecosystem it's fascinating so you really got to check it out if you haven't um yeah and honestly it's just a really pleasant experience to transact with no gas fees or basically no gas fees and i think we're going to see more of that i i also definitely have the like the stigma against most nfts on l2s just being spam basically because you know sometimes they are spam and

up until recently i'd never really considered them as sort of a place for high value nfts i think l1 ethereum is just has been where the premium entities are by and large is where most of the market is so the marketplaces on l2's haven't been great and the bridging experience hasn't been great they're just users aren't there i think going forward yeah we will see more and more we just have to see more and more adoption on l2s and that's where a lot of activity will happen and l1 will be for like these legacy these you know og collections that they'll probably stay on l1 um maybe some of them will bridge over we've seen you know a few projects launch on l1 and then bridge over especially like the gaming ones like ether orcs and there's a few others um because for gaming obviously need the more transactions but

yeah i think we're getting there it'll probably take most of this year and maybe next year is when it'll really be normalized that that's where a lot of activity for nft just is going to take place because it's going to have to yeah dc what do you think about the long-term dominance of the ethereum l1 when it comes to nfts do you think it's going to retain like the vast majority of market share or just how do you think the the world of nfts in l1 versus l2 is going to play out so i think the reality is we have a lot of very important kind of culturally relevant nfts that started on l1 and basically all of the prominent nfts we know of today are on l1 and because of that it creates this accretive network

effect onto ethereum l1 but brought more broadly to the ethereum ecosystem so i don't think nfts on l1 are going to go away anytime soon that being said i think the path of sending an nft from l1 to l2 is going to be is fairly is much more straightforward in general so if you wanted to take like you know 100 crypto punks and move them onto arbitrome i don't know if you can do that yet with what they with with their bridge but you will be able to at some point and that will be and then you'll have those hundred crypto punks potentially being tradable you know at much lower fees but then you have to pull them back to l1 if you want to use them on l1 again so that but anyway the point is that path is more straightforward the issue comes in

when you've initialized an nft on l2 and then if you want to somehow pull it back to l1 and for some nfts that is doable but it has to kind of be thought about in advance as that nft is created so i think that for some nfts like artwork they're going to put in the investment to do that i think for a lot of in-game items though well first of all if it's an in-game item and they're using one of these common contracts like i think immutable x has set up some contracts that allow people to pull to l1 as well then you're kind of already set but i think a lot of game nfts are just going to be initialized on layer 2 and they're just going to stay there for the most part and they're never going to come to layer one and i think that's kind of the

future vision like i think within three years it'll be very exceptional that your average user is using ethereum layer one to be perfectly honest so a lot of this activity is going to be on layer twos and gaming nfts are going to be absolutely huge on layer twos and we're already seeing that with some of the success of immutable x and other platforms i think where we're looking at like fine art uh you know these these nfts that really represent these unique artworks that are worth a lot of money that's going to take longer for those artists to get comfortable with creating work on l2 and that's where i think the assurances of being able to pull back to l1 become more important i will say as we're talking about a mutual x here and i think this is a

story i partly shared with zenika on overpriced jpegs a couple weeks back but i've had my first experience with some nfts that natively arose on immutable x and i say it is dangerous that gas thing i've never been a day trader and i like blacked out and woke up three hours later i just like traded for like i was like what is happening so you know because we're for you know on on main net at this point if i'm going to make a quarter of an eighth there's no i'm like that's that's going to be wiped out by gas it doesn't matter it's not even worth it but like no nasties it's like suddenly a new world so you know warning it gets really gambling there real fast uh but it made me quite bullish on it to be honest i think immutable acts and and

you know obviously they're making a big bet on gaming i think it'll be interesting to see what they do um okay i think uh maybe we close out here with with some broader nft markets talk that's my favorite thing that's overpriced jpegs we're getting into our world here hardcore uh i guess i'd love to hear from y'all if there was ever three people that this would be a good question to like what nfts are y'all bullish on these days what are you excited about you know what's what are you tracking are you guys like throw it to zenika um i'm obsessed with crypto carbons it's this amazing pfp project the art is unique and different i was founded by five women who

you know it was their first real foray into the nft space and they just got together like hey you know let's create a collection uh the community is is just different it's just different to every other project that i've ever come across um yeah i really love it i think it's i'm obsessed and every time someone asks me recently like what nfc project do you like that's the one i go to um go for it yeah yeah i guess recently what i've been most fascinated with i'd probably say doodles i don't know i saw them a few weeks ago and like just something captured me about the art and then they kind of took off so it's of course easy to get bias when the the price is going up but so not financial advice but i

don't know something about them like just you could hang them on a wall walk by them and never really get tired of them um are they differentiated enough cause they all kind of look the same to me so it's funny right like i have this talk a lot with people like so i'm a punk guy right and like board apes rose and i i can't see the difference on board apes and i talk to people that aren't aboard apes and they're like oh i can't see the difference in punks so like i think it's just like unless you live in that community day to day and you're like obsessed with the traits like you don't really see it um but yeah i don't know i just i just like the art it stands out to me as something different um and yeah i guess i already

mentioned my my latest like just hours of research has been around treasure dow and the stuff they launched there around like legions and you know their treasures and their small brains and like all this stuff i've so i've been i'm becoming more fascinated with like applications that are trying new things as opposed to kind of just launching pfps right and you know i will say and i know for a fact dc will back me up on this one i'm sure but i i think generative art will make a comeback and i think one of ones will be a new wave people are sleeping on generative art right now but like it's truly unique right like people are just copying the 10 000 unique trait thing um generative art is going to have a comeback so i i've been not going to lie i've been scooping up the floor for a few weeks

now and some of that stuff oh you're i i know we're going to throw this to dc because i'm i'm very eager to hear dc's answer i will another shameless plug for overpriced jpegs our guest next wednesday is poopy co-founder of doodles and i say i'm not a doodle's owner i'm not a holder you know i was really impressed talking to poopy i i think it's fair to say that i really think he goes deeper on the project than he ever really has in an interview and that's an impressive team so as a as a bet on the team person oh my god dang i wish i'd grabbed myself a doodle uh also very much with you on the degenerative art piece i think there's you know digital art still just makes up such a fraction of of the total art market and there's so much room for that to grow

and generative art is really your most digitally native art in some ways so um really excited to see where that goes okay dc what are you excited about well i am excited about some of the newer stuff like i'm really interested in the meadow hero project which uh and punk's comic which gfunk and the team have done a lot of really interesting work i'm really interested to see how that universe builds out but i actually think now is a great time to be thinking about some of these older nfts which have been comparatively de-risked and i wrote a tweet a few weeks ago which i'll just share with you guys here and i said the nft kind of market evolution and if you think i'm just going to go through these stages very quickly but when we started none of them were valuable then you have early kind of kind of

culture like x copy even larval labs and other individual artists creating that early work new early adopters arrive that's like a lot of the types of folks that you have on on today's discussion right we got involved with some of this the early stuff becomes valuable then you have the corporate and mainstream arrival and i think that's the stage that we're at now right you have adidas you have nike making moves by acquiring artifact and you have a lot of these big brands now coming into the nft space and so we're at a point now where mainstream taste is also almost starting to overrun and we're becoming oversaturated oversaturated with it i mean even like jimmy fallon and paris hilton are talking about board h with each other on this tonight's show it's kind of like

mind-blowing when you see i mean that happened i think it was yesterday and i watched the clip i was like wow didn't that's kind of crazy but but after that mainstream taste phase you're gonna see some of this quality counterculture stuff and early adopter work kind of come back and that value is gonna soar with these collectors who come in and they want to get something that's authentic that's kind of foundational to this movement so i think actually now is a great time to be looking at some of that stuff if you can afford it i know the price tag is already high but if i'm right in like five to ten years this is gonna look like absolutely nothing on some of these well guys that was all the alpha that our nft panelists could give you and i actually want to ask this question

because i think it's very very timely if eth goes down in price and god forbid goes into a bear market how relevant is that to the nft industry how relevant is the us dollar price when it comes to nfts eric i want to start with you on that one i guess first i would ask have you been watching the charts the last three weeks or have you not [Laughter] wait are we in a bear market all right sometimes i just can't tell if we're in a bear market yeah enough teas have decoupled from crypto yeah exactly that's what's weird right so we're i think hit at the max like 56 off the top or something like that and i mean board apes just keep going to the moon punks had a pump last night

doodles are up from like five to twelve like all this stuff you go on open c there's random collections pumping every day right so i i do think we have not really seen a correlation between the two and honestly having watched punks pretty much since the beginning um they've never been correlated to each price they've pretty much just always independently traded on eth only right and this is like the eat this money thesis which we won't get into this in this podcast we've had plenty of those in the past but like our the future of art is priced in east and people are okay with just making a few eth even if eth went down 30 overnight right so i don't really see in any of the collections i

have people repricing as heath itself changes in price um what's interesting is like maybe it looks cheaper to people that have been looking to enter with usd right like heath fell 50 the punk force stayed at 70. people are like oh look pumps are 50 off um but i think as far as like an overall market repricing i think they're pretty decoupled and i mean it kind of seems like they're almost moving independently like eat dumps nfts pump nfts dump eat pumps so um we'll have to see how this plays out over time i guess i would love to hear zenika's answer to this because you and i talked literally a couple weeks ago i think or a month ago whatever it was and you were saying usually nfts uh do best when the price of eath is stable right and that and and

then when it pumps that's no good and it if it you know dips that's no good and like we're not seeing that what are you making of this and and are we in a new paradigm or is the is the crash coming yeah i mean i i agree with eric that there's it's relatively decoupled like if we just look over the last year we've seen eth pump and nfp's pump at the same time we've been eat crash enemy's pump and every scenario has happened so we can't really look at history and say and make any sort of reasonable prediction i do think that when eth is like crashing or rocketing in a short time period nfts they may not crash or do any but people are just a little spooked to trade partially because gas is just crazy when

you know when ether is pumping or crashing you know the default activity on on mainnet is just crazy and gas is consistently high that kind of cuts off nft activity at its knees at least for you know 90 collections so yeah i think that when ethan's stable is probably when nft is pumped the most um but i mean aside from that i think it doesn't really correlate too much uh but i do think for people who have been sitting on the sidelines again like eric said and have been thinking about entering the market and have said um even at the low end like a thousand dollars from nfp that's too expensive oh but now it's 550 all right i can justify like and a lot of people have said hey i really want to get in oh i love that

collection i want one of those and and most people who aren't in the ecosystem they think in usd or whatever the native fiat currency is so i think uh in that respect the lower east price is good for the market overall um but i don't necessarily think that a huge east price is going to be bad for the market carl you want to ask your next question when you unmute yourself yup see this is probably live streams you can't cut that out can't edit that moment out uh i actually wanted to push on something you were saying dc it felt like you were talking about uh you know the the maybe investing in some of these older projects that as new entrants come into this space will respect the history and we'll buy into that i had heard the the

opposite argument made specifically around coinbase and the argument that maybe coinbase onboards a whole bunch of new people to nfts and they're not necessarily people that out the gate are going on spend six figures or towards some of these newer projects that up until recently we're not quite so highly priced again i think this is something zenik and i talked about and he maybe didn't agree but would love to get your reaction to that thesis that in the short term we're going to see pumps on some of these lower priced projects as new entrants come in and and are are a little wary to spend 50 100 000 at the gate oh for sure yeah your reaction or yeah yeah i mean i think i think that's absolutely right you're definitely going to see a lot of interest in some of

these lower value nfts which still have are like culturally interesting and and i think a lot of it the way i mean my vision is a lot of it kind of trickles up right and so the people who buy some of those give liquidity to someone else who might go back and buy the art blocks piece or the crypto punk or the ape or the autoglyph or whatever whatever that nft they've been eyeing for a while so at the end of the day it just brings more money into the ecosystem and it is beneficial across the board however i think personally from my point of view some of the older stuff just has a very attractive risk profile that i think i think a lot of people in the space get in and even if they made a lot of money they focus on these newer kind

of more trendy projects but trends kind of change quickly and i think a lot of people will even say well the trend has changed on crypto punks and no one cares anymore i'm like okay let's see let's come back to that point in five years or three years and let's see if that's really the case i mean what we've seen actually as board apes have moved up the punk floor also is rising along with it and you're seeing that kind of across the board for some of these older collections so i think it's very much like a mutually beneficial situation rising tide lifts all boats pretty uh not all but a lot of them [Laughter] guys i saw a collection yesterday it was like the cool mori doodle friends or something a derivative of four projects measures one

that's the the point of the market we're at right now why that that one maybe he's not going to make it that's a top signal [Laughter] guys i want to thank you for spending all of your time with us on this uh overpriced jpegs bankless cross panel and this was fantastic and i just want to give you guys if you guys want it you guys don't want don't have to take it but if you guys want just the floor one last time just to share open-ended question actually there's no question just open-ended thoughts about nfts at large anything that we haven't discovered or covered that you guys still have thoughts on rolling around in your head i can just leave that for the taking whoever wants to run with that i would say aggregators dc i think mentioned it but aggregators are going to be huge right

i've been messing with one like genie xyz you can go in and if you want to sweep a floor you can pick 10 nfts in one transaction you do it i think that's the start of it um i think we're going to see a decoupling of you know like we were talking the social layer is on the top like the galleries and the middles the aggregators and the bottom is hopefully truly decentralized marketplaces because props to open c but we need to get to where ethereum's values are right and that's a uni swap like exchange of liquidity so um i think aggregators are going to be the story um you know that social layer around galleries um over the next year or so yeah and i'll offer um my parting shot and just say on on the question that you

guys answered a second ago about where are we in like the nft market cycle i spent the past 24 hours basically stream of conscious like analyzing and tweeting about this topic because i think it's super interesting but i think one of the points i think i would leave you with think about how nfts are different from the rest of crypto because i think in a reflexive bearish situation you do see a lot of people panic sell their fungible cryptocurrencies because they can and they're just like i'll rebuy it later nftas have a psychology that is much more complex than that it's really difficult to break people get attached to their nfts and even if you want to sell them you're not going to get instant liquidity at the price you necessarily want and so there's a lot of

barriers to selling so i think that as a lot of crypto participants have come into nfts we're still trying to analyze that but a lot of the new participants are not a lot of them didn't we're not really involved in crypto before and i think that's going to change the character of the market going forward and i will say i mean i think something we're going to see this year which again eric alluded to is that the ability to take like collateralize your nfts instantly and it'll start off with the blue chips and then it'll probably expand to more collections i would say just be wary when that happens like people are gonna take on a lot of risk markets might pump but i predict the first real

enormous crash and bear market will happen as a result of that liquidity unlock and then eventual crash so keep that in mind dj's gonna degen and that just perfectly leads into what i'm about to say next guys thank you so much for coming on of course crypto is risky eth is risky nfts are risky nft marketplaces are risky collateralizing nfts is going to be really risky you can lose what you put in we are headed west we're on the frontier it's not for everyone but we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey thanks a lot for stopping by this bankless overpriced stream panel thanks guys hey we hope you enjoyed the video if you

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