NFT Interoperability with Shane Vitarana of Stargaze

Transcript

foreign he is the co-founder of stargaze we're gonna be diving deep into stargaze today understanding the technology stack the future of nfts and uh also you know some some interesting Concepts around standards in the nft ecosystem you know nfts are growing in Cosmos and we need better standards so we'll be talking about that I'm also dying to find out why Shane thinks we need uh more application Builders and that we're spending way too much time on

infrastructure before we get started make sure to hit the like button hit the notification Bell And subscribe to get notified when I go live every weekend remember that none of us we discuss here is investment advice if you enjoy this content please consider sticking with us we're live on Atmos and Quicksilver and soon on osmosis just look for interop in the active value yourself my guest Shane Patrona is coming up next right here on the internet foreign [Music] we're actually live this time we've had a couple of like technical issues today

but uh we are getting started once again so um yeah I mean I've been trying to get you on for quite a while uh stargaze is a project that obviously is everywhere in the cosmos ecosystem we see stargaze nfts like you know in everybody's pfp um I've got a couple of bad kids myself you know I've got some tokens I'm staking but it's a project that I I don't have a whole a huge grasp of the technology stack what's unique about it and also the things that you guys are working on in terms of standards for like longer term prospects of nfts uh in the ecosystem so uh we'd love to talk about that and before we get started I know you have a long history in web 2 and as uh a developer and builder in the

ecosystem so tell us a little bit about your background uh yeah sure um yeah so I uh come come from a background uh building in web 2 and mobile uh kind of started uh in in Web 2.0 uh working on Ruby on Rails uh did did a lot of Open Source with with Ruby on Rails and uh also was one of the first people at Groupon um so uh through kind of my work with rails I got exposed to uh kind of a lot of the startups like GitHub and Shopify and Airbnb and like got to know some of those Founders and stuff and um yeah it just kind of been a builder for a while um after Web 2.0

um when I saw Steve Jobs announced the iPhone I kind of uh you know knew that that's going to be kind of like the next big platform to build on and then I kind of switched to mobile um I built a couple apps that did really well well in the App Store uh I built an app called drum kit which is kind of one of the first Audio Apps in the App Store you can just you know play drums on the phone uh it did it did really well it got uh over 10 million downloads in his time and uh it got featured on Apple like Billboards and tv ads and stuff like that that's cool yeah and then um kind of after after building apps for a while I kind of got bored bored of that I felt you know I

felt like I I kind of like reached kind of like like a limiter Peak there um and a friend of mine exposed me to ethereum and I just love like the wide open design space and um it uh and and also just the people in the community just reminded me a lot of like the early web right is like a bunch of Misfits kind of playing around and trying to you know figure this out and build some cool stuff yeah um so um because my background though is in kind of consumer Tech um ethereum wasn't at that time in like 2017 and 20 2018 wasn't scalable enough for the kind of things that I wanted to build um and then another friend of mine

introduced me to to Cosmos uh she like brought me into a cafe and it's like okay we're gonna read the white paper now and um the first white paper the version one yeah yeah yeah yeah the first one and uh it it kind of blew my mind and I had to read it like three or four times to like understand all the terminology right because uh Cosmos just uses different terms like uh uh you know like Zone instead of like side chain or a chain and stuff like that so yeah um yeah I just I just really dove in uh the way that Cosmo scales with IBC just kind of really uh made made sense to me as someone you know coming from a background of the web

and uh yeah just started just started building on it yeah that's cool and and um and what uh what led you to want to build stargaze like at what point did you say I want to build an nft platform um yeah sure so um so early on I was um uh so I was uh I was working at true story which is what was kind of one of the first kind of like Venture funded uh uh uh startups that was that was building on Cosmos um but it was gonna do it again I I I it was too early it was like trying to it was like building a protocol to like uh try and uh solve fake fake news so uh so people would like post an article and then people would stake either Ford or

like against it yeah yeah I think I remember that yeah and and building something like that it's it's it's maybe even too early to do that now yeah um yeah so um you know osmosis wasn't live yet uh it was really kind of hard to launch a token on Cosmos at that time you had to do like a ieo or something like that on finance and we didn't want to do that yeah yeah um no um so after true story ended um um you know I wanted to kind of build a kind of like a social consumer type with Cosmos so we so we actually started building a like a decentralized Twitter type thing right

um and and while building that uh uh we we realized that this tweet format is an nft and um there weren't really nfts and Cosmos at that time um so um you know I'll really like outside of Tara there wasn't like nfts weren't a thing in like the greater Cosmos yeah yeah so Tara um was a cause uh the the you know first version of Tara was a cosmos and um yeah they had they were they like they were one of the first kind of chains to launch nfts and Cosmos okay yeah I don't know I mean I didn't like play around a whole lot in Tara other than like getting getting wrecked in

Anchor but uh but you know um yeah I didn't realize they had such a big nft presence there yeah yeah I mean so now now um you know stargaze has more nfts uh than Tara ever had but you know they were they're they're the ones that you know kind of got started um yeah so when we were when we were building when we were building this platform um you know we realized that uh we had to do one of these first um because we we kind of have to do that to build what we wanted what we wanted to build um and then the natural thing was gravitate to as a Marketplace because you know you need like the decks for nft trading right

um so so we started working on the marketplace and uh we did um so after the chain launched um we did a large airdrop and I think at that time the airdrop was worth something like 150 million it was it was crazy because it was like yeah you know top of like the bull cycle at that time um and then this community kind of like sprung out from the airdrop right I mean a lot of people just came and just like you know uh claimed the airdrop and then dumped the token but uh the the people that ended up ended up staying uh created like the base of the cube you know the community which is really awesome right now um and they kind of informed and suggested what what we should build um so when when we were in the middle of

building the marketplace uh a bunch of people you know came up to us and were like hey we need a way to launch the collections we can't just trade in the marketplace if there's nowhere to launch it right so then we stopped working on the marketplace and then we started working on the launch pad okay so so now to this day there are those are like the two main uh apps on stargaze which is the launch pad and the marketplace yeah so now we've just you know cover the whole checking out the launch pad earlier and it's pretty impressive yeah we're working on making it a lot better um you know right now it's just kind of like a list of all the projects that I've launched uh but we're gonna start like sorting them by a mint mint volume um and having like a trending section

there's going to be a trending section in the marketplace as well yeah um and like get give me a sense of like how how big is stargaze like how big is a team you know what's your like you know how many people are using the platform you know how do you guys making money what's your burn rate you know that kind of stuff oh man I'm not I'm not super uh great with all the numbers but I can you know I can do my best um so so so stargaze is about 12 to 15 people now right we also have a lot of people from the community so it's like it's very hard to put like an exact number on it right because there's the validator set but then there's also uh a

lot of people that work with the creators there's a lot of people that um uh you know help the creators launch right so um there there's there's a lot of people that um uh do it without getting paid from the team they just like doing it and then there's people who are paid from the team team as well uh so so that's why it's between 12 12 and 15 people um I would say uh about you know uh it's about half engineers and half kind of uh you know BD and operations type people right now okay and how like how do you uh I mean you I guess you generate revenue from from fees like minting fees and fees

when people are trading enough thesis which which is how like the company makes money right yeah well so stargazer's tokenomics was based on osmosis where uh and also Bitcoin where um it started with a you know very high rate rate of inflation right so um so stargaze actually doesn't have much fees right now um there's zero gas and um we have this female kind of called Fairburn um and uh it's based on uh eip11559 where um half the fees are burnt and half of them go to stakers yeah so um so right now um the the only fee that actually goes

into the community pool is if you uh if you meant a name uh yeah yeah um so so right now there aren't uh you know too many fees on the platform so those 50 stars when you're minting a name that goes straight into the the community pool right yeah half goes in uh no no um have half is burned and half half go to stakers okay right yeah got it um so yeah I'd love to talk about the you know the stack here uh because I I was listening to like a Twitter space as you did with um with fish from uh from Quicksilver earlier and you know realized there were some things that I had no idea about right and so um but first you know it's I think it's

on the website it says like stargaze is the most decentralized Cosmos chainer or something to that effect can you explain what that means like how you stand behind that claim sure so uh in Cosmo verse last year uh we won this award for the most decentralized change oh yeah yeah yeah and uh I think what they did is they looked at like the Nakamoto coefficient uh okay and and kind of Base yeah yeah so I think um uh based on based on all the cosmos change I think our Nakamoto coefficient was like 10 or 11 or something like that and I think most of the chains are something like seven or eight okay yeah okay so is this a cosmos award yeah yeah

um yeah maybe we can talk a little bit more about like Community governance because I I thought that it was more along the lines of like Community governance and then validator the distribution which I guess is important but I'd love to learn more about like how things are governed by the the community you know like we were talking earlier off here about how you know there's been some fee changes and uh uh that that were decided by the community and you know I think I saw in one of your responses and a tweet that I posted that you know like things are things are are in flux and that you know there are there is like a lot of uh Community input here on um how the protocols govern so we can talk about that a bit later um so yeah tell me what the stack looks

like and you know I guess for comparison you know if you're looking at like a very vanilla Cosmos SDK chain um how would stargaze stand out in terms of what the what the software is doing like additional modules um some like you know unique cosmoasm stuff uh and and one thing I'm particularly interested in is like your Integrations with ipfs and how that works sure yeah so um so Stargate started off as a vanilla Cosmos and chain but it has some custom modules so um so it has some custom modules for some of the allocations uh um for uh the minting of the tokens uh because it doesn't follow the same kind

of inflation pattern of the Hub um so so it's more more like osmosis where there's a third inning right so there's a third inning every year but it doesn't have epochs um so so it has uh you know it has a custom module that that does the minting then it also runs Cosmos right and um all the all the all the apps or dapps are built with cosm Blossom um so I you know I was I was in the original team that came up with cosmoplasm so it does there's kind of like a I guess a soft place in my heart to to like work on cause and while it's missing so when you say all the dapps you mean the like the the the the star names

uh like these sort of applications built on stargaze are are not modules they're built with Cosmos yes yes exactly so all the all the kind of like end user-facing stuff are uh are built with contracts um but the thing is we do use kind of elements of the chain as well so like you know obviously staking and uh and uh the main layer of governance uh happens through the chain through the SDK um but our team is you know we're we're uh kind of uh we have expertise in both the SDK and Cosmos so we definitely want to work on kind of the Integrations a bit more uh one thing we're working on now is kind of interesting is that we're working so so one thing you don't have access to on the contract side uh is

like the ABCI layer where you can uh perform actions after every single block yeah um so we're working on uh this cron module that will plug into the contracts uh so then um any contract can subscribe um to get like a call back after every block so then it can run contract code after every block um okay so so this is something that we you're going to use for our timed auction feature that is coming soon okay so just mindful of maybe some people aren't familiar with ABCI or what that means but ABCI is this uh is this interface between uh tenorment consensus and uh essentially the cosmos SDK and

within the cosmos SDK those modules uh whenever those modules are performing an operation they communicate with tenorment through ABCI uh it is essentially the way that the consensus talks to the execution layer um what what you're saying is that cosmosm as a module doesn't have direct access to ABCI and so what you need is you need to have like some kind of other module that creates events such that uh cosmosm can subscribe to those events and perform an action when um when you know when like this event happens so it could be like okay a Block's been produced Cosmos needs to do

something it it can subscribe to this Cron job essentially get enough get get like some kind of you know event handler or something uh and then like yeah perform an action yeah exactly and and that just opens their door to like so many things that you can build with this right so um so we're gonna open source this and then um you can for example um can you can you like maybe explain so what what kinds of things like I guess I understand how this works but I guess I don't understand what how it would be used practically and oh okay so so um a practical use case for this in stargaze is um time timed auctions right so so right now in our Marketplace um we have a buy now feature kind of

like you know you could go to eBay you could just buy it now um and and and we it also has offers so you can put an offer on an nft but what we're working on now is timed auctions so um so you can auction off let's say you want to auction off and uh uh like a regular English auction or a Dutch auction um and you want to um find uh the best price for it um within like an auction time of like a day or three days right so you can uh kind of set a timer you can say how long you want to do the auction for you can set the reserve price and then you know people just come in and bid and then um at that at the end of the auction right

um like the chain has to know to settle the auction right yeah so so uh that's when the timing thing thing is important so that's when um this cron module will uh you know send a call back to the contract to say hey um this auction is over you need to settle the auction right so this is something that Larry was talking about also when he was talking about his uh cosmoasm SDK right because the cosmosm SDK wouldn't have this issue it talks directly to ABCI is that yeah yeah it wouldn't have this issue if if it was integrated uh you know a bit more at that level so um you know still was still early days and um where everyone's you know working on

better tooling and kind of better infrastructure for Cosmos okay cool yeah this is okay um and uh yeah so you were talking about some of the so there's there's obviously like all of the apps are built using uh cosmosm uh there's some custom modules there uh as a validator though um what other stuff am I doing I mean I'm not running a stargaze validator yet maybe maybe at some point uh but yeah what other things are are validators doing in terms of like are they doing any of this IPS ipfs uh storage or like yeah so so they're not doing any of that yet uh um so so right now as a validator for

stargaze um the main thing is you had to support cosmopolism so like your resources are going to be uh you know a bit higher than rugging running a regular a regular SDK chain um but we are um so so the kind of the back end layer of stargaze there's a lot of kind of infrastructure that we have to build to like be able to serve a monkey pick right so um a lot of other kind of nft platforms are very centralized they're most of them are just databases and they only use kind of crypto for kind of payments um and uh a lot of them don't use any kind of like decentralized storage provider like you know anything like that um but we went with the decentralized

kind of approach for stargaze um there's a requirement that all uh collections have and and data and metadata have to be stored on ipfs um and initially we were uh um the the long-term goal is to have the validators run like all the infra right that's a long-term goal um but right now um we actually built our own ipfs uh Gateway because uh the existing Solutions were just weren't working that well right so we tried some other providers out there and they had like pretty high failure rates um and uh and also just like the the website and the marketplace is very

image heavy so there's just a lot of kind of custom things we had to build because you know Cosmos doesn't have uh we don't have the graph we don't have Alchemy uh you know or like infuria or like you know all this kind of like back-end infrastructure that you need to build like a a well-performing site uh so we had to like you know build all this stuff ourselves um so so we have um kind of our own RPC cluster uh that serves data from the contract super fast we have a ipfest Gateway that's also incredibly fast and built in Rust and then we have this like back-end apis that um kind of form like the glue layer between um the front end and the chain but

what's the challenge in integrating ipfs with with Cosmos because like ipfs is I think fairly well integrated in the ethereum ecosystem and there's a lot of tooling and uh yeah to facilitate the use of ipfs by contracts it I I I I my feeling is that's not really the case with Cosmos that like we don't really have those things yeah yeah we were able to reuse um a lot of the kind of the ethereum tooling for especially on the on the Creator side for like launching Collections and uh you know kind of like the the um kind of build some um like for example we have a a tool called uh command line tool called call stargaze tools that that uses um some of the uh um ipfs kind of tooling that's available

for like ethereum and so on and so forth and it kind of like wraps around that um there's also Stargate Studio that's uh even uh it's kind of like a front-end wrapper around uh stargaz tools um so we do use kind of the ipfs kind of Tooling in that sense uh but serving from ipfs is what we had to build um so um most ipfs gateways are just incredibly slow right and no one wants to wait like you know 10 [Laughter] and all existing Solutions out there are are pretty bad so I so I think most marketplaces uh and nft platforms and

end up building their own yeah um yeah and and they probably end up like saving it in like Amazon or S3 or something like that just to make the website fast right so there's some kind of caching going on on a centralized service and okay and uh what's the prospects of using like I know kive is like you know it's a cosmos chain that does this this caching of like our weave and ipfs and obviously you know there's um in the cosmic secret system we have Akash although they're not like a Content uh delivery or like a Content storage Network they're more of like a a server space uh marketplace right but which could be potentially used maybe or

as some kind of like infrastructure layer to hold this stuff I guess like maybe kive is more a suitable uh way to maybe decentralize access I don't know there's like is there any does that make any sense um I I haven't checked archive yet but uh yeah yeah I'll definitely check it out um but what the the kind of direction we want to move in is um like for example the RPC cluster that we have right uh like if if a validator wants to kind of plug into that Network then they can and then maybe they'll get like delegations from the foundation or something for doing that okay um and and then um you know if a validator wants to

run an ipfs node you know then they can and then they plug into like the rest of the um other validators that are also running like ipfs nodes but the thing is like it has to be provable right so if someone's going to get delegations to get tokens for doing that it has to be provable that they're running this node right so yeah so that's kind of like the hard part to build right because because anyone can say hey we're we're running this where our tokens right so yeah hmm interesting um so so validators are you know might be running uh additional like RPC nodes uh in this cluster um but but it's fairly vanilla other than you know

running cosmosm and you know maybe some of them doing RPC uh yeah and and and and there well there's also some of them that run uh Marketplace bots so um right now the marketplace is non-non-custodial so if you if you place an offer you don't have to um escrow your nft in custody of the contract you could still use the nft you can use it for like token gated access to you know Discord channels and stuff like that um but if you if you own an nft and then you transfer it somewhere else then um uh the offer in the marketplace is now stale right so we so so we do have um some validators run kind of bots to

kind of clean up the marketplace and remove stale bids and stale asks um and they get a little bit of of uh of like a reward for doing that oh okay interesting and your Cosmos limitations is it permissioned or permissionless yeah it's permissioned permissioned okay and are there any plans or are there any uh opportunities here to have um you know other folks in the community or like you know are you are you you're going sort of the way of Osmosis by letting other teams build things there and like having this kind of ecosystem or is it more just you're seeing it more as a tool for you guys to build things like in-house no I mean it's it's a pretty open

ecosystem um anyone can submit a contract and upload it to the chain if they want it just has to go through governance um there's already um a you know a bunch of projects that have launched um third-party projects that have launched on on stargaze like the badges tool that I think you played around with a little bit you know that was that was uploaded by Larry right and yeah so far like 100 of um like ecosystem developer contracts have been accepted and uploaded and running on stargaze okay so what what are these other contracts like what are what are people uploading uh as contracts on Cosmos other than this on the stuff that that we see like on the website like you know being able to Mint nfts and you know

names and stuff like that yeah so these other projects kind of have their own sites um one um so one of them is like a peer-to-peer uh kind of uh nft trading protocol uh it's called Pegasus so you can have like a basket of nfts and then you can um trade it with another person that has another basket of nfts um so um that's that's one of the uh one of the things that's kind of built on it um then there's like you know non-contract based tooling as well right so there's like ranking sites so um hubble.tools is probably like the biggest kind of ranking site for uh for stargaze and you can go and like track volume and um they have this like really nice uh kind of like live like mint and

live sale streams and they also do like a lot of interviews with the creators and stuff like that um so uh yeah so far uh that's some of the uh stuff that's kind of built on it um there's also a generative art platform that's built on stargaze so um if you ever use like art blocks on ethereum it's kind of like the same thing um and uh um I think I think this is kind of underused I think to me this is one of the more kind of interesting um um you know kind of ecosystem projects that's launched on stargaze because it actually generates the nft in real time right so um so when you go to Mint it'll create

some art kind of based on your address and based on the block height and it'll create like a unique piece of art um so that's something to check out too and um uh it's called it's called Public Works uh and I believe it's public works.org okay we'll link to that okay cool um yeah that's interesting and you know as a uh has an nft platform I want to ask you this earlier I'm asking now uh how do you reason like how do you like I I feel that you know you kind of have to strike a balance between different users of nfts because you have creators

obviously like they want to create art and um you know want to sell it and get people to like be excited about it then you have uh enthusiasts and I would put kind of myself in that category also although like not super enthused but like I've got a couple mfts because I just think they're cool and I just like want to have them and there's like a community aspect right so it's like okay you might want to put this as a PHP but I'm not trading and then there's like Traders there's people who are just trading the floor and trying to make you know money basically with nfts how do you strike a balance between these different users and trying to satisfy all of them um and I'm asking you this because I saw some of the comments you were responding to uh today in one of my tweets yeah

yeah you know it's it is very hard to satisfy everyone so yeah you're right you know so there's hardcore Traders there are people who uh come in and trade hundreds of time times a day sometimes and then there's people who are collectors uh who are and then their people kind of more casual users um then there's people who just like the art right just purely for the art they don't care how rare something is yeah um and then there's people who are there purely to try and flip stuff so they want to come in as early as possible uh and and then there's people who just like to commute the community Vibe right um like a new collection launches and uh they just kind of have fun kind of like

changing all their avatars and pfps and then they have their own little token gated chat and stuff like that so yeah um uh there's there there's various types of users um and uh and and and then there's people who just uh you know creators that want to push the limits and do some more interesting stuff right so there's this pixel wizard project that that just launched um and it has um a kind of code in the back end that uh pulls up like token prices so you can get it yeah yeah you know so if you if you get the pixel pixel wizard for like near or something you like press a certain key and I'll show you like the token price for it in like sales times like as SVG based art or how does that work yeah

yeah it's it's SVG based uh based art but it's it's like running in an iframe in this like JavaScript code that's like executing in the back end okay that's really interesting yeah it's kind of a novel uh a novel medium you know because most Matthews like just jpegs or maybe even maybe gifs sometimes but yeah yeah yeah um yeah so I'm I'm very excited about this I'm very excited about like new projects that are launching they're going to be kind of pushing the boundaries of what of what you can do but but getting back to your other question about you know how do you deal with um uh all these different types of users um I I think what's going to happen is that platforms are going to uh kind of move into verticals to please like

different types of users right so I think I think um one good example of this is blur uh on ethereum and uh you know blur is like focused only on Traders right so so if you go and use blur like the the nft like image itself is Tiny it's like smaller than a postage stamp it's so tiny like it's comically tiny right so they don't like focus on the art at all it's just purely trading right so so so if you go to it it looks more like you know like a pro trading platform like uh I don't know coinbase Pro or something like that right um okay so the thing is the the great thing about stargaze is that it because it's its own chain anyone can build other types of clients and uh websites

for it right so if if anyone wants they can build something that looks like blur that works on stargaze right so so I think I think what may happen some point in the future is that there might be different instead of just starting that zone there might be different verticals different sites to please different types of users right so people that are in in it just for the art right may may have a site that has like just full screen art for like everything and maybe the Rarity isn't even shown right so if you look at Foundation um on ethereum that that site is kind of designed uh you know to please just the creators and the artists um and blur would be on the other Spectrum just for Traders right so I

think I think I think that's what will end up happening um right now we're trying to please everyone because uh you know the cosmos is still still kind of is still kind of small so you can still kind of do this right now so you're saying it'll come down to interfaces where the platform remains kind of agnostic peaches will get you know developed on the platform but stargaze the website in the marketplace and the launcher may not be the the place where people most people interact with it they're using other websites they're using applications that people have built for their kind of own you know use cases yeah exactly I mean I mean stargaz is almost like you know two or three startups in one right because

we're we're building stargaze that zone with just like the main client for it and um but we're also like building the blockchain right and then we have all these like middle middle infrastructure where you know we had built all this kind of like um you know image processing pipeline all this tooling all the ipfs stuff and indexers and all this kind of stuff so um where where in you know whereas if you look at something like openc right they they only focus on the interface they're not also building ethereum right so so it's uh um you know at some point in time I don't know who knows it might it might break into like three separate companies or something I don't know okay yeah go their way of uh go to way of tender

Mentor or something like that yeah um without the drama I hope yeah uh yeah let's um yeah I want to talk about interoperability because like it's such a central topic I think too obviously too you know the cosmos ecosystem but also what you guys are doing uh you know and I I had this conversation with uh Patricio um uh warthaler of of poapp a couple of months ago and and I asked them this this uh you know about interoperability and the idea of like moving uh nfts across um across chains and ecosystems and his response was pretty uh like you know it was pretty clear and it was that nfts are uh inherently tied to the

Providence like the chain on which they were minted and that if you take that away you you sort of lose the value of an mft or or you diminish its value and you know it kind of got me thinking um and obviously you know in in like poapp is a is a very evm Centric uh uh project you know they're on ethereum mainnet and agnosis chain and they sort of like want to occupy that space and and also I think they're trying to you know they're very you know keen and intent on protecting their brand and the you know the the sort of like Prestige that comes with being like the main uh proof of attendance attestation service on

ethereum so like you know there there's like a strong incentive for him to want to keep that thing on ethereum um but but it got me thinking about this idea of Providence and in the context of nfts that were potentially moving across chains and ecosystems and at some point you know these assets are like living on other chains and other ecosystems and they've been bridged over several times and you know there may maybe we've lost the you know the the sort of Providence or even the uh you know the the the original chain on which you could also always go and find that out but like as a user you sort of like are no longer attached to the state right the

consensus that sort of like minted this thing um is that something you think about like when when thinking about interoperability in nfts and how yeah and if so like how would you address this and you know I guess it's a broader question about what the challenges are when it comes you know when talking about interoperability in nfts sure sure yeah and I think I think it comes down to the kind of different types of users again right so um you know right now uh we're still in in the early days and uh kind of a lot of people we interact with and talk to um um there are certain values that they care about right and then there's mainstream retail users and there's

certain values that they care don't care about right so um there's some users on stargaze who don't even know what the word problems means and don't don't care about it right they just want to get like their fun little Avatar or something um and then there's more kind of people into builders in the blockchain world to do who do care about this stuff um and yeah problem ounce is definitely tied to the chain and uh in in the cosmos World actually you know on on on any chain right everything's everything's on chain so there's like a block Explorer right and uh so you can always track the provenance and then um you know we're working on ICS 721 which is uh IBC nft transfers and then um if an entity does transfer to another

chain uh you can start tracking its provenance to there as well right so I think I think what we will will have at some point is like a block Explorer like a like a like a multi-chain interchange block explorer that can you know track track the provenance right so I think I I think that's um very useful tooling that can be built um after IBC transfers are a thing right so so right now if you use minscan um if you do an IBC transfer of like a regular token right you can kind of follow the prominence of that token right you can uh you can see that it was uh you know IBC transferred from like one change

osmosis or something and then transferred to another chain you can you know you can still kind of track it so so even after uh we do have cross chain nfts it's still possible to track it and I think it's just uh solving the problem this problem is just a tooling problem right so so we'll have some kind of uh promrons tracker that's like just multi-chain and just built across all these block explorers hmm and you you know so do you think that um do you think that a derivative of an nft then should you know would trade at or you know would have the same value as the original uh in the same in the same way that a

fungible token uh well typically trades around the same value like it what's the pre what's the what's the premium there or not the premium but like the the um uh yeah like what's the premium for the original asset over the bridged asset um so we had to be careful using the term derivative here because that's also used to describe um a derivative or project itself so if someone makes a copy of pictopunks then that's a derivative uh nft product but I think you're you're talking about more like a like a you know like a like a synthetic nft like a uh you know what I meant to use yeah sorry yeah yeah yeah yeah so so if you move um uh an nft from stargaze to let's say

like another chain um uh uh yeah the you know the original uh kind of uh prominence kind of can be tracked back to stargaze because it was like minted there right but then there might be some like uh um uh some kind of like I don't know lending and borrowing platform or something like that on this other chain that they might want to use right and um if they want to kind of uh get back the original asset they still have to kind of transfer it back to stargaze right yeah so so they can still kind of like use it as it it's its own nft on this other chain right to me to me it's no different from moving IBC assets like fungible assets right uh it just depends on the security of that chain right so

if they if if they move it to uh a chain that's like you know like a test net or something then it may not be as secure and they can possibly have it get stuck there right and then you have this issue where the nft is like still locked up on stargaze and now it's no longer available because that other chain went down right yeah so yeah so that that just kind of puts the burden on the user but that's just exactly how IBC Works anyway yeah okay so what's the status of uh ICS 721 right so like ERC 721 is the ethereum token standard for nfts and there's like other standards that have

come since then and I I don't know all of them by number but um and then ICS 721 is sort of the cosmosm implementation of that um or Cosmos SDK implementation I guess well well there's two separate things so so there is um uh so there is the nft token standard there's the just the SDK module so it's just sdk.nft which is the SDK module uh then they're standard yeah and and then there's CW 721 which is the cosmoasm standard and the Stargate stuff is based on cw7 721. so we take CW 721 and added royalty and added royalties to it pretty much

um so a a a an ICS 721 token that's minted using the cause the cosmos SDK module is that fungible with the cosmosum the CW 721 implementation or are they interoperable yes they're interoperable so um like the point of uh like a spec is to make like a uh Tech uh Tech agnostic uh um kind of thing right so um just like uh um ICS 20 you know just like ics20 is the is the fungible token standard right yeah um so you can move fungible tokens IBC assets across any

Cosmos chain um ICS 721 is the same so um so the the nft token standards themselves are the SDK module and CW 721 and then the fun and then the cross chain transfer protocol is ICS ICS 721 right but are they are they tangibly the same thing or if you're if you if you minted an ICS 721 nft using the module and then you move that uh into the cosmosm contract on the same chain are you then dealing with a synthetic on the same chain oh you're talking about if you have uh the SDK module and cosmen wasm on the same chain

yeah I guess that wouldn't make sense I guess this I guess the standard sort of exists so that say like an ICS 721 token mentioned on chain a can move to stargaze that uses CW 721 uh and not the module I presume right so it's just so that we have interoperability between chains that are using the the sort of vanilla module the custom SDA module and chains they're using because it wasn't standard right yeah yeah exactly so like on a chain chain like omniflex or asset mantle that you use uh just the SDK module uh you can use ICS 721 to transfer um you know like one of their nfts to

stargaze or you can use transfer targets nft through ICS 721 to one of those other chains right and because it's agnostic to kind of the underlying uh um uh technology it it still works okay but that doesn't work yet because IBC doesn't work over these standards yet is that is that right oh no it's uh so so um the implementations for ics721 on the on the SDK side and on the cosmen Watson side are done um we're just waiting to uh uh um we're so so this thing called this thing called game of nfts that's launching next month okay and uh we're just kind

of waiting to kind of battle test all this stuff out right so um we just have to kind of make sure just kind of test all the all the edge cases right so like you know like is it possible to take an nft and just transfer it across multiple chains like millions of times and and and and and uh you know cause some kind of attack that way or you know is it possible for um an nft to not properly get burned so it'll exist on two different chains right so we need to kind of like really really battle test this stuff first okay um it's been audited and everything and uh you know we can just turn it on I mean we can deploy the contract now and build an interface for it but you know we we want to test it out first and like

okay a real world environment I didn't know this was going on so so right now basically we're sort of like at the cusp of being able to transfer nfts between different chains yep okay yeah talk about this like this is interesting yeah I mean I I yeah I think I think it's gonna be pretty cool um you know East chain has kind of like a unique kind of value prop right and uh there's kind of unique protocols running on on each chain and um we're getting to the point where like you know nfts are becoming more of a thing in Cosmos um in most of the other ecosystems is bringing in most of the volume like if you look at ethereum or Solana um something like you know 60 of like

the new people coming in or coming in for entities right um uh Cosmos in terms of like retail mainstream adoption is a little behind but that's going to change you know that's going to change in next next couple years um especially when we have we have like you know high profile projects like dydx launching there's going to be just a lot more people coming into into the ecosystem um and then um yeah and then and and then and then after that I think uh we will see kind of like you know a bit more usage of this stuff um in terms of in terms of cross chain uh you know you can do something like for example like secret network uh they have um their nfts can have private have private metadata right yeah so let's

hypothetically say you're making a game and you have like assets that are you want to keep private or something right then you can uh like maybe you know uh like mint those on like secret but then you want to trade them then you can like you know transfer them to stargaze and trade it in its marketplace right or um let's just say a Creator um uh is really affiliated with some other chain for whatever reason and they kind of want to Mint it there but then they want to trade in the marketplace and stargaze then they can move it over and vice versa right uh the secret use uh the same standard the ICS 721 yes you could use this um uh um like a fork of CW 721 uh they had to

obviously change it because they have their own kind of custom privacy stuff yeah right okay uh but we do want to work with them at some point and get uh IBC transfers working with secret as well yeah that would be cool so so like I mean I guess then the world starts looking a little bit more like um nfts on ethereum where you can mention nft on uh in like a contract and then you can move that nft to any Marketplace that supports uh erc721 so you can move it to openc or wearable or you know whatever show time or I'm not super plugged into these things but those are the three I know off the top of my head

um and and then they they can be traded there there might be like you know different amounts of volume on each of these platforms but at least you're able to do that and then you can also interface with any kind of external facing product that supports that standard so for example like one example would be like Twitter blue that uh is able to verify ERC 721s or at least with openc they can um so you could do like token gated communities on any of these chains as long as you've got a Kepler wallet that has nfts in it it doesn't matter what chain it's on it just it just understands that like this wallet has ICS or CW 721 tokens in there yes exactly so you know let's say

um you want to have uh you know your Twitter Avatar that like you know hexagon thing that they if you associate like an like an nft with uh Twitter um let's say you want your bad kid to show up there right then you can uh at some point in the future sometime this year you'll be able to uh you know transfer an nft to ethereum um you know over gravity Bridge or something and then and then um once you have it on ethereum then you can add it to your Twitter profile okay so that's cool yeah yeah okay so you guys will have ah well this brings me to my next question outposts yeah so um how will that how is that going to work and

um through yeah through which you mentioned gravity Bridge uh with ethereum what other um I guess maybe you know Define is it like maybe explain what an outpost is because I feel like it's a topic that a lot of people have been kind of throwing around and uh you know my my grasp of this concept is not full yet so uh that would be helpful yeah uh you know this kind of concept is still uh um uh you know where kind of in the early days of figuring this out um we wanted to call it start star bases but it seems like the word Outpost is what people are using so we'll just use the same same terminology I find it evokes you know like you know if I can like forces and you know you're right yeah yeah and yeah

it's like it's a bit weird you know you have an outpost and then or you're creating like a settlement or something on like another chain uh yeah um but but basically what it is is uh like kind of like a proxy uh so in the case of stargaze it's gonna be like a proxy to the marketplace on another chain yeah um so so if this other chain um wants to use uh stargaze Marketplace um the this this this Outpost abstracts all the IBC work right so this Outpost will kind of handle the ics721 transfer uh and and and just kind of like do do all that all that dirty work for uh for this chain and and then in the view of that chain they're just talking to a

regular contract right so they'll they'll talk to The Outpost and they'll be able to like list on the marketplace they'll be able to do auctions like pretty much all the stuff you can do on the marketplace they'll be able to do it on this other chain as if the marketplace was like live and living on that chain but behind the scenes is getting is getting proxy to stargaze okay and um you know we could we could use any sort of bridge like axillar or whatever what's the prospect of um I guess you know there's a broader question about interoperability uh what are your thoughts on like ZK IBC implementations uh to effectively kind of

eliminate the need for um for a bridge or like some sort of a mechanism that's you know it's not a sits between two chains where you're just having an implementation of IBC uh in a in a ZK circuit on ethereum I I I haven't looked into DK uh ZK IBC yet but it definitely sounds sounds fascinating um but but in the in in in the current state of bridges um axler is launching this thing called generalized message passing where you can also do uh do nft transfers so we're probably going to work with them for NFP transfers on other chains uh so maybe maybe

um Solana maybe polygon uh maybe some some of these other chains and um and then uh use ics721 within Cosmos because it's IVC native is Cosmos native right and then um we're we're probably going to work with gravity on uh bridging to ethereum uh but that can be done with xlr2 and we we might use both I'm not sure okay yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure about that yet and does this mean we can also move nfts from ethereum over to Cosmos so it's bi-directional right like oh yeah you could you you could have like your crypto Punk or whatever on like stargaze Marketplace or something like that yeah and and we're so close to getting that

working so this so there's only one one missing piece uh of that right now so um so with ICS 721 you can transfer an nft from Gravity to stargaze right um um and uh and and and you and gravity you can transfer an nft to gravity right but there has to be um uh uh there's the the only missing piece is to detect that nft has been transferred to gravity and then to create the ics7 21 packet to send that to strong AIDS so that's like the the only missing kind of piece left to get that working and this this nft would then be sort of locked in a contract ethereum such that you don't end up with this

situation with the where they exist in two places effectively yes yeah it'll be essentially held by escrow uh on in the contract and gravity and and a synthetic version will be minted on stargaze okay I I heard you speaking about this somewhere too where you you in the context of scaling right so like okay right now I think we maybe don't need um you know to scale like on a chain like like uh like stargaze to anything more than what uh tenement and the costumes that CK kind of can can provide um but um in the context of scaling what are your thoughts on using interchange accounts to use stargaze to Mint nfts on

other chains like yeah yeah I think I I I think that's fascinating and um I think a good use for that might be in D5 protocols right so um in uniswap V3 for example your liquidity position is represented by an nft right yeah and um I believe that's going to happen in Cosmos too um we're also kind of working on a decks and that's the it is going to work work to work that way as well um but I think uh you know let's say there is a chain that um is a D5 protocol but they don't have expertise in like nfts and they don't want to manage anything with like nfts right so

so that protocol if it you know if it wants can use like stargaze as this like kind of nft infra and and and and if it wants to emit like a LP nft or whatever it can it could like do that like over ICA or something like that onto stargaze okay so it would be like a stargazed native nft um where you know all these things when we were talking about Providence right like the Providence goes back to stargaze but you're you've effectively minted it on another chain uh using ICA so like the other chain would have to support 721 standard and then you you use ICA to make it there but then it would always have to go back to you know to stargaze to sort of find its home uh

if you want to have like the the true uh Native token yeah yeah and and we're still in the early days of figuring this stuff out but you know we're going to have some kind of interoperability between um ICA uh icq and also cosmosm right because Cosmos can also have uh interacting contracts and other chains other cosmics yeah that's super cool like I mean this is really like interesting stuff I yeah have you were able to dive deep here um so yeah we talked a little bit about this earlier and I I mentioned it in the intro but you were saying how you know you you think that we're spending way too much time on infrastructure and not enough on product and I think that's an interesting take because I I'm you know

I'm kind of of this opinion that there there are infrastructures like infrastructure application cycles that kind of respond to each other where like we build applications and then people come right and they we kind of push infrastructure to its limits and then people build infrastructure we've seen this throughout like all of Technology going back to you know like the earliest example would be like people build airplanes before they built runways right uh or people build light bulbs before we had an electricity grid and I think this also uh to some extent exists in crypto right we built Bitcoin before we had a Bitcoin Network and um we you know we pushed ethereum to its limits during the the Ico boom and like the whole phase and and then we went on

and scaled ethereum and and I feel like right now there's a lot of uh you know the the the the last cycle uh had is kind of Flagship applications and nfts were the kind of application I think that really um you know uh had its had its moment there um and and now it feels like we're going back to some kind of infrastructure building phase where a lot of people are focusing on infrastructure uh I mean like I'm publishing a post in a couple of days so it says like here are the 10 infrastructure things that we're looking at um like are are do you think that that that the current infrastructure that we have can support all the applications that

people would want to build um and yeah like where where do you see like the where do you see this cycle sort of playing out um yeah so my take on this I mean I mean first of all I think infrastructure is terribly totally important right we won't be here if the infrastructure wasn't there um my take on this is is that um you know if you look at uh if you look at Terra right um Tara was just a vanilla um Cosmos and chain um it got to the point where it was it's like the third largest chain by volume right and it was doing just fine right it was it was it was just doing just fine for a while right and and and what

what brought Tara down wasn't uh anything to do with scalability right um uh and and right now we have all these all l1s um a lot of them have plenty of block space that can still be used so I think we're at a moment in time where I think the infrastructure is pretty good um I think uh like right now Cosmos is only limited by the creativity of the devs right you can come and build anything on Cosmos right now um all all the tooling is kind of there now is pretty mature um so so we don't necessarily need to be focused on kind of like pie in the sky

uh you know uh crazy uh kind of scalability right now because um especially with the recent downturn uh at least right now right it could totally handle the number of users so yeah um so I think I think I think it's a really good time to kind of focus on on on applications too right and um you know typically how would at least work in the web world or in at least in in the web 2 world was um you would build an app first right and then and then you would scale it when you get the uh like um enough users that you have to scale right so I think I think we we are doing a little bit of premature optimization right now I think

crypto in general um uh because uh a lot of the teams like for example stargaze like you know our team can build scalability Solutions if you really want to right so if you really want to we can work on like optimistic block propagation and stuff like that um it's just that we don't we don't necessarily have a need for it now right but but if like let's say like you know Disney comes to us or something and says hey we want to launch this collection of stargaze I'm like oh okay let's you know take a two or three weeks and and and scale things even more right so um I I I think there's maybe a little bit of under appreciation for teams that could uh kind of operate that way where

they operate a bit more like a like a like a typical startup where you focus on the product first and then you scale when you have to you know instead of uh you know just your entire story is only about scaling yeah I think I see your point I mean from my perspective I think there's a lot of infrastructure that's being built right now that doesn't Focus specifically on scaling or maybe scaling is one of the benefits but it's it's not the only benefit and you know one uh area is like this whole modular blockchain uh thesis right and I think you know scaling is an important aspect of that but I think it's also just making it easier for people to launch

applications uh because like launching your own you know cosmosum chain uh or sorry launching your own Cosmos chain is like not not an easy you feel like you got to get validators and everything okay like ice security is going to help with that but you know it's a big undertaking right whereas if you just have to launch like a fuel roll-up uh and you know there are tools that just make it easy for you to do that and you're a developer and you're like you don't want to think about consensus and you're not building anything that requires you to really like you know optimize consensus or like look into blocks and stuff then then you can do that and so like I see that as kind of a you know a little bit of the WordPress era right where like people are just launching their own chains and

launching well launching their own app decentralized applications using something like Celestia and then there's a whole bunch of other stuff that just has like well that's that's necessary I think important that um you know doesn't really have to do with scaling so like interoperability protocols is one of them where okay we want people to be able to move tokens between ecosystems that go beyond beyond uh Cosmos so like all the ZK stuff I was talking about or like axolar or these things um you know Dow tooling like all the Dow Dao uh tooling you know like we've been I I've been you know wishing for years that we could do like multi-sticks the way we do in ethereum like we we desperately need that stuff and it's great like they're doing just they're just rocking it

um custody you know like uh like seed phrases are not the way to onboard the next billion or two billion users like that's that's ridiculous and so we need you know NPC infrastructure we need account abstraction uh tooling um to be able to build wallets that people can do recovery you know the list goes on and I feel like this is the kind of infrastructure that I think empowers and really inspires developers to build better tools to then like that bring uh to build better applications that will onboard the next you know like 500 500 million billion users because applications are going to be easier to use because then we'll have people that are like inspired to build cooler things

and and that's like what I'm I'm really quite excited about right now yeah you do have a really good point there but I think um uh you know maybe we can separate out ux as kind of like its own thing right that's maybe separate from scalability but like yeah ux is terribly important and and and and and it's one of the reasons why people would use a centralized exchange over like a decentralized a decent centralized exchange um that could definitely use a lot of work right um wallets could improve a lot uh we need to explore like different types of custody Solutions uh different types of like authentication um you know I think Kepler is doing like a really good job where you can just

kind of like log in with Google right yeah um you know maybe we need to add like other services and stuff like that and just just make key management and while it's just a lot lot simpler so so I'm I'm I'm I'm a huge fan of that stuff yeah yeah I think like a lot of infrastructure you know it is is kind of like developer tooling that ends up making ux a lot better like this this this single sign-on and Kepler it's made possible because of I think they're using web3 sign-in or what used to be called Taurus or something in the back end there and that's infrastructure that people use all the time right and and and don't realize that there's like some other company in the back end you know building that infrastructure making it

available and making sure that like they get access to their wallet next time they log in with their Google account um yeah and I don't think people really know what's going on behind the scenes there right it's actually like doing like like threshold uh signing so it's actually like sharding your key into like you know a few different shards and storing them like validators and then when you log in again it uses your authentication token and reconstructs the key on the client side yeah right so so it was doing some pretty pretty interesting stuff like in the back yeah and then privacy is a huge one too I think I think that is you know one of the like I I sort of see it as the web's https moment where basically we couldn't

do credit card payments on the internet until I think it was the Netscape team came around and developed https and that made you know Amazon possible Right it made like all of this all all of e-commerce possible and and and then there was a long time during which we didn't really have https outside of payments and uh around 2012 I think or maybe even earlier like Google decided that okay Chrome is just going to throw up a big warning every time you use a website that doesn't use https and that kind of forced everybody to go to private um to https and and I I feel like in crypto you know if you want to onboard like a

billion users small businesses and corporations you need privacy like you absolutely can't go around like just showing your entire net worth and history of financial transactions to everyone for all of eternity and you know I kind of uh when um you know this this I promise this ties into something else I want to ask you about but when um when icns came out uh uh I kind of throw my hands I was like this is crazy like I mean basically there there's there's zero I mean okay maybe we don't have the technology yet and maybe you know we don't have the Privacy technology yet to uh make it such that you can buy a domain

um and like not tie it to your existing wallet so you don't see the Providence or the funds to pay for the fees and but at least tell people like there should be a huge warning when you're registering the name and you know I don't have a stargaze name but I looked at the website it doesn't have this warning but there should be like a massive like Please be aware that by doing this whatever you do with this address will forever be known to anyone who looks at it and all your past present and future transactions will be made public um and like by the way governments and you know the IRS and you know are actively using uh things like chain analysis and like openly using them um

and so yeah I think I think we we can't fool ourselves about this like anonymity that we used to have when you know crypto was relatively early we don't have that anymore that's like that those area that that era is gone um how do you think of privacy then in the context of of stargaze and specifically in the context of star name um or start sorry it's our name sir uh it's stargaz names sorry guys name sorry I confused it with start star name which was another field project uh yeah um I don't know if they fail but yeah not uh but yeah um yeah how do we fix this because like you know we're not going to onboard like the

next half of humanity if if everyone's uh financial information and transactions are made public yeah so there's a couple things going on here right so um a lot of the people in uh nft communities um are kind of the opposite that they want to flex their like what they have they want to uh people like to share their profile and their collections with other people um and then the creators want to be known right and uh the collectors want to know who the creators are right and um a lot of people want to uh you know only buy nfts from the Creator uh creators that they trust is not going to

like rug them right so so they want to uh maybe follow them on Twitter they want to see their like past like history what they talk about all this kind of stuff um and there's this whole kind of community aspect to it right so so the demographic of the people that are kind of into nfts at least right now um uh don't seem to care too much about privacy um is it's just it's just maybe the the state of the community right now um and and um uh well what was it gonna say like so so it's uh and and also kind of like younger demographics like if you look at uh people who use like venmo right they're they're um they're like all their memo transactions are public they're sharing

it with their friends and stuff like that um people just kind of I mean we don't have venmo in Europe but oh okay are they yeah yeah like yeah yeah you can have like uh you can have transactions that are public I I think it's private by default but you can have a transactions that are public too so you can see what you're buying with your credit card and like who are you you're venmoing to and and and stuff like that so so I think um there's a couple of angles there's a couple things going on here there's um you know like like younger demographics are care a little less about privacy everything's open and they celebrate everything being being open um uh but you know privacy is terribly important for you know Financial

transactions um but but it may not be as important um uh for nfts right now um but yeah I think for nfts it doesn't but like look I mean like uh I don't know I I I don't flex an nft collection but um oh like see I do I do Flex like these synths back here oh those are cool but you know but but but I don't I don't like my uh uh my my bank account or anything like that and you know there's a separation between like okay maybe I bought like maybe I've got like two grand worth of synths but uh you still can't deduct my bank account you know um so there I think I think there's like

a level of granularity that is necessary and because like these things are so just connected and tied together um yeah yeah it's it's it feels a bit unsettling to me that there's not more uh just awareness around the the kind of long-term risks of using and I think mostly it's like people put themselves as people put them themselves at a a really high risk of like uh like tax audits you know uh because most people I think just don't do their tax their crypto taxes right uh for those who do do them and those who don't

well just don't do it and uh I think there's like a huge risk that authorities might come after them even if they've done things relatively right or they thought they'd done things right at some point in the future yeah yeah I mean uh you know I'm I'm looking for a day where privacy is like a first class primitive uh you know across Cosmos and like everywhere right so I'm very excited about projects like the number that are launching soon and uh you know they're gonna have like their own like um shielded pool and then who knows in the future maybe uh you know there could be like cross-chain transactions between phenomber and stargaz even um but yeah I mean I mean getting getting back to names right so um so stargate's names like anyone can

go and mint it right but it's it's optional like you don't you don't have to do it right um and uh if you do want to kind of uh uh create a name you can always like you know create it with like a different wallet or something if you don't want to expose a different wallet um and uh yeah it's it's really it just leaves it up to the user to associate whatever they want with it right but even if you create with another wallet you still need to move funds from your main wallet to get like you know um in order to to pay for the fees and so you unless you like go through an exchange or something right it's like it's not trivial to be to be to be uh yeah it's not it's not trivial yet it's not trivial yet but like you know I'm

I'm looking to like the future where there'll be some kind of like you know mixer or something in the ecosystem and you you'll you'll easily be able to send funds to like a new account right yeah but right yeah right now is not it's not trivial right now yeah I I think that like any domain name service that that you know respects people's privacy should have that as a built-in feature just like if you're gonna buy this thing hey there's gonna be some added fees but they're going to go to some mixer and that will be all taken care of and like you're gonna get a fresh address with fees on it or like we're gonna front the fees for you like some some kind of thing right where your identity is detached from the you know from the from me from the account totally yeah and and

it should be an option for people that want to have it as an option yeah um so yeah I I guess uh I I did want to talk about a little from my own kind of self-selfish uh you know reasons I want to talk about Stargate studio um so I I think soon we'll probably have a concept where uh there'll be artwork generated for each episode um and that would be kind of like unique artwork a little bit like epicenter right like where we have this kind of polygon thing that people noticed for there uh I'd like to have something similar here so we're working on some Concepts and so you know in the next few

months I hope to be able to have a listener nft kind of like a PO app right where every episode like you know you come on you get your own you know artwork and and and people who listen to the podcast within a certain time window they can get this kind of proof of listen nft yeah and and I'd love to use stargaze to do this and this kind of throws me back to like early early days of crypto podcasting when um let's talk Bitcoin used to have their magic word and so you'd have to listen for the magic word we would say the magic word on air and then you would get some tokens for like heaven oh really how do you know that oh fun this is like yeah uh Adam B Levine had done this on on a let's not Bitcoin platform but

anyway so uh yeah I'd love to like use some of the tools there uh what are some yeah like what yeah I guess my question is what are some of the applications you think that uh nfts can be used for for creators and is is stargaze or will stargaze work on like better Creator tools for podcasters and YouTubers to kind of integrate their content with stargaze so they can build their communities around this and uh yeah we've got like other ideas too like you know we do this conference uh nebulous Summit um which we'll be announcing soon and we'd love to have it such that people who have our nfts have these co-ops right they get access to early uh Early Access tickets and stuff like this

totally yeah I mean we're we're always uh making the Creator tooling better um so strong is actually launched with a command line tool called uh call targets tools and um we could have actually launched with a um like a nice website for kind of uh creators to launch a collection um but then what what we what we realized is that um at that time there wasn't like really good kind of filtering on the website and um uh creators that went the extra step to like learn the tooling and use the tooling also had like better Collections and better art and stuff like that right so so um the the it was uh on purpose to actually launch with the command line tool because it was like a little bit of

a barrier to like entry and uh when we did launch there was like six or seven hundred projects that wanted to launch on stargaze at like on the first day and we had to like bring it down to like 10 or 11 right so um uh uh so so the so having the command line tooling initially actually helped you know bring uh bring on better like higher quality projects on uh on stargaze but now now after kind of like the filtering and sorting and stuff is there now we can start uh improving the tooling so we can get everyone to launch whatever they want right so that's the goal um so um Stardust studio is still in the early days but you can use it now and launch and launch a collection um I know I think you've been playing

with badges a little bit I think we're going to be uh yeah I I think that is going to be coming into Stargate Studio as well yeah and uh yeah just overall like better Creator tooling and also a lot of creators are asking for like ways to like track their sales and like generate like data and like reports they need for taxes and stuff like that so um yeah that's just kind of like an ongoing effort and cool very cool yeah building more stuff yeah we'll we'll definitely we'll reach out to you whenever uh whenever we've got a bit more of a handle about like the create creative aspect of this and see how we can we can build it in um yeah like I think as we wrap up here the question I wanted to ask you is uh

like you know it just to contextualize here we discussed this a little bit like the the last the 2017 cycle you know the big use case there I think was uh was funding so you know there was this all this exuberance around icos and at that point at some point like that fizzled out and now people still do uh fundraising using a blockchain but they have these like staffed agreements and they've kind of structured things around that um and and that is kind of what that produced right like ICS kind of produced uh this this new more serious or like kind of regulatory regulatory compliant way of doing funding um now in the in the last cycle like we had all this exuberance on nfts and like just like tons of people pouring money

into this and you know all of the kind of insanity for me it felt very similar to the Ico bubble um what what do you think is coming out of that like what do you think we're getting out of this all this exuberance like what's the what's the kind of child that births from like all this all this Insanity where in like two or three years from now be oh that's what all that was for you know yeah I mean the way I see it is that anytime something new comes out some new technology comes out it goes through like a toy phase right this overly kind of uh exuberant um kind of phase and um that's where nfts are right now they're in the toy phase people are just kind of playing around with it

um uh and and uh you know our our goal right now our job is to kind of build an infra build the tooling right and then um at some point in time people will use it for all kinds of stuff right you know uh like I don't know maybe your home deed will be like an nft or something or uh like like it could it could get to the point where like all media is is like nfts and it's just the default standard right um at the end of the day it's just a container for data right so you can uh it's gonna move Beyond just art and stuff like that like um I think yeah I I yeah I talked earlier about like uh you know LT positions as nfts you can also Imagine in like you know let's say you are

building a strategy for like sommelier or something like that right that strategy can be encoded as like a nft metadata right and and and and the the person that often uh that that created that could you know monetize it and sell it as an as an nft right um you can have uh one thing we're looking to build is like a blogging platform right like you can you you can like the content for the blog can just be metadata in the in in the nft right um uh maybe even like a governance form or something that's based around it so there yeah there's just so much stuff that you can build and and um I think I think we're gonna start

seeing a lot more interesting stuff because the overly exuberant phase is kind of over yeah yeah well I'm looking forward to that uh to that stuff being built um Shane thanks so much for coming on this has been like a really fascinating discussion I've learned so much uh I've also expanded my uh expanded uh you know a little bit like my view of the space and uh where things might be going and and definitely I got a much better understanding of like token standards and interoperability um between uh between yeah cause you know Cosmos and and uh and vanilla Cosmos modules so thanks for that and uh yeah look forward to continuing um learning more about stargaze as as

you guys build up this project awesome man thanks for having me yeah it was a really fun chat thank you thanks and to our listeners thanks for tuning in uh we go live every week so please make sure to subscribe hit the notification Bell and the like button and if you like this content please consider staking with us uh we're currently live on evmos and osmosis and some other networks very soon so we'll see you next week