The Next Evolution of Onchain Apps

Transcript

what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup for today's episode we take a jump back into time when we first covered Maverick protocol years ago on defi slay and have now kind of been faced with the question in the ma ecosystem as to where the apps are so we decided to have Bob Baxley the founder of Maverick on the show to talk about where defi goes from here the innovations that have happened in Defi and where he sees this entire ecosystem of onch applications heading in the future also whether or not mad is going to launch an app chain and how Bob feels about owning block space I hope you guys are interested in the evolution of amms and dex's because we talked quite a bit about that as well towards the end and some AI programmability things hope you guys enjoy let's Jump Right In after a

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comes in they just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show what's going on guys welcome back to the rollup today we have an episode with our good friend Bob Baxley of Maverick protocol to address some questions from the community and that we have at the rollup uh as we've kind of shifted focus into more of this modular ecosystem and and different kind of proponents happening at at the infrastructure level and at the scaling level there's been quite a few developments that I think that we should cover at the actual application Level and defi level and I think I think this PL will be good to kind of answer the question that we've been getting a lot which is like where are the apps um and so maybe we can talk a bit about

kind of some some of the evolutions of defi where defi is going um and and more um Maverick has just pushed out their V2 so I'm sure Bob has quite a bit to share about that and yeah Rob of course welcome in GM like it says on your shirt and yeah one my favorite pieces of merch shout out geyser um they uh and yeah so you know we we started out uh pretty heavily focused on defi quite a few years ago um and the space has come a long way uh not sure if you guys see it similarly curiously hear your perspective but I tend to see these and flows where we uh we got ethereum and then all of a sudden there and ethereum

was the infrastructure and we got a wave of applications in Def summer and uh you know we got we got maker we got a we got all these defi applications and then we kind of hit capacity at the infrastructure level um and then so we had to kind of like go back work on scaling some of these protocols scaling the base layer and the infrastructure before we could see another wave of applications go live and so and to your point you know we've been spending more and more time on the infrastructure level uh there's been a lot of scalability conversations a lot of work being done and research being done uh at some of the protocol in infrastructure levels um and so you know kind of like time to see the fruit of all that labor

at the application Level and so Bob you know welcome to the show um yeah really really Keen to kind of hear your origin story where you've come from and then ultimately bring us up to speed on Maverick V2 um and just kind of like you're General perspective on how you're seeing defi evolve in the in the recent years and and going forward sure yeah hey guys thanks for having me happy to be here um yeah so my background I was a uh academic I was at Georgia Tech for a number of years doing information Theory and Signal processing and then I spent uh almost a decade running Tech as a CEO of CTO of a cyber security web to Startup and then jumped into D web 3 a few years ago um built out the Maverick

game uh so yeah I think it's a great question you know we we've seen new infrastructure uh you know slow infrastructure with the original evm now fast infrastructure with l2s and salana and I think and we've seen really interesting apps come on top of that to me kind of the next wave that's coming is I'm pretty excited about AI web 3 and I think things like zkl where you can do offchain heavy compute and then in approvable way so you can do it trustless Le uh and then bring that into defi app is going to be kind of the next big wave coming so you know Unis swap V3 did or V4 has some neat stuff with hooks Maverick uh V2 has programmable pools which is a variation but a similar sort

of idea where you can put kind of heavier Duty logic inside of a swap or ad liquidity call or any of these calls and so to me the the folks building out kind of offchain um uh compute doing ml compute offchain whether whether it's optimistically or with zero knowledge proofs is is a really NE space that's going to start to infect uh defi apps yeah so we've heard of ZK ML on the show maybe just once or twice um and and I you know I've seen some projects working in that space as well um would love to just have a a a pretty broad understanding of of kind of what that process is and how it kind of works on so so we've got these we we've

got these models and inferences off chain and then able to bring that on chain to do some uh higher level or basically more complicated or complex actions yeah would love to really kind of break that down and understand how how this offchain AI kind of aspect comes onchain and what further understood how it works you know it's super cool Tech I think the web 3 is really driving all kinds of really neat you encryption and verification Tech so the the idea in um in ZK so so let's just back up to a use case so say you want the inference of a model on chain you want to use it as part of a smart contract

interaction okay so an example would be a defi aex where um so Maverick B1 had these neat ways where depending on the price you as an LP could choose to move your liquidity so there's are fairly simple rules a very simple model you could think of it about inputs and then the outputs would be where with liquidity would move you could imagine much more sophisticated models with lots of inputs that have a more nuanced output okay and so and this is what you know trfi more really more sophisticated Finance has much more sophisticated models that than what we can do on chain and the limitation on chain is is gas so the the validators running these computes that the compute of uh smart contract interaction it's very very

limited it gets very expensive from a gas perspective and then smart contracts on evm chains are are limited to 24 Kil so there's not of room to put a giant model on chain um okay so so we we've got this use case I want to do something sophisticated on chain or I want to use a sophisticated output as part of a smart contract interaction one way you could do it is you could use just an oracle so you could think of like um chain link is doing this they take a whole bunch of price data off chain and they kind of in trusted way write it to a contract so that you can then read it from their Oracle contract in your smart contract can do something with it so there's Oracle based dexes out there that are using chain link feeds pith feeds to to

to organize how they price um swaps uh that's that's kind of The Trusted way to do it the the 1.0 way to do it a more interesting way to do it is with with the machine learning model you have some way to prove that um whoever is writing essentially the Oracle output on Shain um has done it in some verifiable way where you know no longer have to trust them you all you need to do is specify what they need to do and then you can have some ZK proof show that they did that thing so to make that more concrete imagine you have a model that takes the inputs say prices from various dexes or depths from various dexes or or both of those things uh and the model has been trained to Output the

new fee for an amm on the next Swap and so all processing all that data on chain would be intractable um hiring somebody to do it where you just trust that they've done that inference faithfully and they've taken the output and actually written the right feed to chain is a way to do it but there's tons of trust there say they lose their key somebody could do a malicious fee malicious things can happen so the idea in zkl is you don't have to trust them in addition to running that model they instrument the model with the zkr circuit and the output is both an inference and a ZK proof and that ZK proof can be concisely proved as part of the smart contract interaction so now anybody you don't even need a

permissioned thing anybody could go run this model you know whatever however the the system set up um so if you can run the model any block you want say then anybody could do that and they could write the proof to chain and prove that they've run the model and and in doing that kind of effect that the fee changes so uh that that's the power of of kind of that's what I think is the biggest part of the web 3 AI narrative is this ability to do inference offchain super heavy duty compute offchain and a trusted or trustless way and then you can use that output in daps including [Music] defi cartey is your home for app

specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology cartey enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full L environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today Everclear is pioneering the clearing layer the clearing layer can almost be thought of as splitwise when you go on a trip with friends but for the blockchain what I mean by that is when users are sending cross chain messages there's often times fillers and solvers who have balances left on

different chains that they need to rebalance and reset their positions this is where ever comes in evercar is pioneering a collaborative approach to the chain abstraction future and they are willing to work with interoperability Partners solvers and other providers in the space to build a interoperable and chain abstraction future check out Everclear ever clear.org and welcome back to the Lup yeah so that's super fixed so you can imagine instead of doing that um or instead of even an oracle that's that's a trusted Oracle you could have some model that a has specified and anybody who has this model which they' published and the hash of the models on chain anybody can run that model offchain at

their expense so they're paying for the compute to do that and they get a ZK proof and they get the output and that sets the new lending rate for whatever the parameters of the pool are it's kind of a keeper model um but you don't have to have a permissioned keeper that you trust you can have anybody do that um kind of updating of rates or updating of fees permissionless Le anytime that it makes sense very cool yeah I I feel like you know this has been theoretically it makes more sense to have more sophisticated models more Dynamic lending rate models and interest rate models and fee models when it comes to decentralized exchanges but we've just been Limited at the infrastructure level to trusted parties and we haven't had access to like affordable fast ZK proofs

and verification methods for those ZK proofs and Ai and running some sort of inference model on chain and so the convergence of all these things H has really been at the infrastructure level and then we can now utilize that in the applications and so uh you mentioned Hooks and programmable pools and I think that has been kind of like the more recent Innovation at the dii application Level so before we get into exactly how Maverick V2 utilizes some of this Tech could you just generally explain hooks maybe how uniswap uses them and and programmable pools in general sure yeah um so you know Dex is 1.0 and 2.0 uh so let's just start at the

beginning of dexas right so you have this constant product pricing model for univ V1 univ V2 bank or are the early dexes and that's an elegant super simple way to do it gas is really low but it's not very sophisticated and it means that there's a ton of slippage whenever you have a trade and so you know the Curve guys Michael came up with this idea of stable swap where if you have something where you know the price doesn't have a huge range you can change the pricing curve to be much tighter around that Peg so that's what stable Swap and curve did you really need Innovation uh and so you can think about that is like providing a little bit more degrees of freedom and then univ V3 was really neat as well so there they created a range amm so now you can kind of take that stable swap

idea and parameterize it around any price range you want and getting more concentration gives LPS more return if the price is in their range uh and then MAV V1 we we added even more flexibility to that where you can have opportunity distributions and you can have the amm moving your your price around um so you can imagine each one of these like generational changes is more flexibility for the lp uh what univ V4 does is it says let's stop prescribing um new mechanisms for pricing let's just have a mechanism called a hook where anybody can write a smart contract and on swap the Unis swap V4 pools if you if you set up the pool in this way will go ask a different

contract you know it'll say like this is the incoming flow this is the state of the pool Let's go ask this hook contract what we should do about this and the hook contract can then modify parameters in the pool modify how the the trade is treated these sorts of things so hooks let you Outsource that complexity someplace else and it lets you basically create any kind of new pool mechanisms you want uh without having to redeploy and without having to have Unis swap V5 um so there's there's pros and cons to that so one of the biggest con is like even if you don't do the hooks there's gas involved in like checking these hooks all the time um and so uh if if you don't have a really you know neat

use case for hooks I'm not sure that's gonna that can be a big drawback um hooks are also um uh yeah they don't kind of provide infinite flexibility so you still have LPS that own the pool the Maverick's variation on this is programmable pools and and Maverick it's not a hook Paradigm it's more like you have an accessor a contract that essentially owns the pool and can change any of the parameters in the pool and can decide who gets to swap and when they swap what happens to the swap before it passes to kind of the core nugget of the pool code um so similar ideas and the the high level objective is the same which is allowing you to insert logic during any pool operation yeah

makes sense I think that we saw like this need for more complex interactions on chain um as these New def5 Primitives spun up right in the beginning there wasn't so many Primitives in the sense of like there was lending markets cdps dexes but now like we have you know uh option protocols we've got various like Bond markets we've got stable coins that are kind of trying to to be like either semic collateralized or backed by different assets you know we've got these like basis trading protocols and so like there there's all these different opportunities now to kind of like pick and choose uh different uh ways to interact on chain I know that hooks were kind of a big primitive and

now obviously programmable pools and want want to dive more into the mechanics of V2 and kind of programmable pools and how they work um but real quick prior to that we've been exploring this idea pretty through and through over the last couple of months of of apps going to launch their own chain and kind of this this idea of app chains and solving the the the sovereignty problem the the Noisy Neighbor problem and and I'm curious your thoughts as to like the idea of um you know uh defi apps launching their own chain selling block space as a business um and whether or not this makes sense for different defi applications um you know there's

trade-offs between composite ility and sovereignty and interoperability and things so I'm generally curious your perspective on this and how you see this this evolution of apps especially on ethereum L1 either moving to rollups or eventually moving to their own chain um and how how you're seeing this trend from from the application perspective I I guess on one level I'm not I'm not I gotta admit I'm not super tied into that I know I do know of some apps doing that and I'm I'm a little bit perplexed by it honestly um I think I think in going from ethereum to l2s I think that makes lots of sense right you get you get cheaper transactions and block space is cheaper all all these things I mean you know transaction on base cost pennies which is fun right you can

deploy a whole pool for almost nothing um I'm not sure of the Synergy you get by having you know just a sole app chain for your app I guess you can you can Implement some special pre-compiled in the in the chain and whatnot so maybe there's some advantages there but uh honestly I'm not even sure I know the the premise maybe what what if what have you heard Andy what's the the kind of big headline of why somebody does this in defi space yeah I think the the idea would be to have just full full customizability and control over your uh execution environment and I mean in the world where you know if there's a a big app on base then the fees all of a sudden get you know you have to deal with other apps basically taking block

space from you or or making your block space more expensive um but then also so every time that that there would be a transaction on on Maverick chain for example you know you you'd be running the sequencer like when there was there's ways to distribute Fe LPS internalize these things um but I think the big straight off would be composability like how you get liquidity onto your chain and how you would synthesize that amongst other chains but yeah I think that's kind of like one of the general ideas yeah I think getting liquidity there and having it interact with those things there because that now every interaction that you have with other other chains is non-atomic Right using some sort of messaging protocol to

talk to another chain to move liquidity around I yeah it's it sounds um a little bit challenging um but yeah I mean yeah you can start making it so that uh you know the the the mining extraction value goes to to your users these sorts of things um but yeah I'm I'm it doesn't strike me as like a super strong use case have you guys seen anybody do it successfully yet yeah I think there's been quite a few and and I think it'll continue to happen but I think it's really use case specific um with regards to the type of app um but I mean you guys are expanding to like all you know several rollups like is your strategy here like okay we

we we want to be everywhere or like we want to be in certain places and kind of like like dominate more than kind of try to be everywhere like there's like the Unis swap sh strategy which is like they're just on every chain Sushi swap is like a best example of that I think they're just everywhere um but then you kind of lose that like the brand name in that given execution environment like I'm curious from your Builder's perspective on like the multi-chain strategy as well separate from App chains like how you're thinking about okay how do we expand um but kind of keep this level of brand recognition or kind of dominance in a given environment I Think It's Tricky I think uh you know we see the big chains come and then they tge and then they have some of them have

a harder time holding on and certainly pre- tge there's tons of excitement enthusiasm there uh and then you know it's hard to see how things are going to shake out right like who knew Bas was going to be the meme chain when it launched that that's probably was not coinbase's intent when they when they launched right so um I think so to answer your question I think we think of Maverick is just kind of utility that you know smart set of smart contracts it should be in every chain and V2 really digs into not just the amm half of this but other parts of managing tokens liquidity and governance and stickiness so uh yeah the short answer is I think you deploy everywhere so that you are everywhere we have plenty of

protocols interact with us that that say you know we're on a and C chain and you guys are on B chain you know if if you're not on a and C chain we can't do that much with you because then we got to go find somebody on the other two chains that you're not on so I think it's tricky to just It's tricky to just be on a subset of the chains and and kind of get the flywheels going especially with the other bigger Blue Chip protocols that are multi-chain makes sense yeah cool all right well um I appreciate that I was pretty curious from from the Builder's perspective kind of how thinking about this from the app space um you know happy to dive into into Maverick V2 and maybe we can just have a a foundation as to the the main

Primitives of Maverick V2 and uh what the uh upgrade from V1 looks like at at at each level uh and then we can kind of pick and choose into where we want to dive deeper sure sure sure sure um so one of one of the core upgrades is just the amm itself so the amm has um this new flexibility programmable pools but if you if you're not in a programmable pool if you're in kind of a vanilla pool um uh the mechanisms the kind of core mechanisms we call it a dynamic distribution amm you can still distribute your LP liquidity in any shape you want you can still move around with price if you want as an LP um but the the kind of the biggest thing there is actually it's way less gas so you can do SUB 100K concentrated liquidity

swaps and so you know if you we did a comparison the other day I think univ V3 is at 150k for a vanilla swap between State stable coins tend to be more expensive because they they're proxy contracts when you do the transfers so we're like 50 50k less than a univ vv3 swap and that's super important when you start trying to get flow through aggregators and whatnot because that fixed cost of gas means that you're going to get any trade that's even if you have a much less depth that fixed cost of gas is super important especially for smaller trades so that was a big focus in in in the amm half or part of of the V2 launch the other neat thing in V2 and I think we're the only am doing this is uh you get have

directional fees so in every other amm design if I put eth and usdc in a pool I set a fee for that pool and I'm now agnostic to whether I'm selling eth or buying eth I get the same fee regardless which when you say it like that sounds crazy um you're probably not agnostic you probably want to hold one more than the other or take a bigger fee for one versus the other uh so in in the maveri V2 pools you can actually specify the fee in each direction of Swap and so that may make sense from an LP's perspective if they think there's more volatility as big big um you know buy side pressure for a new coin or something like that it's also an

interesting um creates an interesting primitive for somebody who wants to kind of dollar cost average sell or buy because you can basically set the fee in one of the directions so high that you never actually sell in that direction right so say you do want to accumulate eth and you want to accumulate at some distribution you can create this distribution of usdc in a usdc eth pool and you're kind of counting on the price of eth going down in in a typical amm as it goes down you get more eth in your pool but as soon as it goes back up you sell all that eth back so here with directional fees you can create a ton of friction to sell the eth back and you can basically you're buying eth at this this distribution that you've created and you're collecting fee as you do it

so that's a super cool primitive that that a couple of folks are kind of working off of to build um to build that as kind of a portfolio management tool in addition to just kind of vanilla L yeah like vaults or something right right some sort of like easier easier operation for for somebody like me doesn't want to manage 12 pools at at a time and set all the curves I can kind of just pick and choose different things and and have it be done behind the scenes yeah yeah exactly so that's cool and then the programmability piece so uh now you can create a programmable pool and and basically I I don't think that's just what like a vanilla user will do I think protocols will build programmable pools so there's some stable coins

building programmable pools and the simple mechanism they're implementing is when the price goes below Peg they're going to set the fee in One Direction higher and when it goes above Peg they're going to set the fee in the other direction higher so some some simple feeke keeping things some kyc pools for rwa assets uh and um uh some some fee setting mechanisms that depend on the volatility of kind of a a market you want to raise the fees when the volatility gets high so those sort of simple mechanisms for programmable pools I think are are imminent a couple folks are working on those quick question on the the directional fee piece and kind of like the dynamic nature of the the fees there like let's say I create a liquidity pool when I when I deposit

liquidity in there um there's other LPS that also provide liquidity into that same pool so let's say for instance you know I set some fee in One Direction some other LP in the same pool sets a different fee in a different direction how does the pool itself s kind of synthesize the differences in the lp fee structures that that myself and another LP in the same pool set so it's per pool so um for for a pool that's not programmable you set those fee parameters once when the pool's created and they're never adjusted again so anybody can join that pool and that it's not as if the originator of the pool can change those um so that'll be set so

there's there's kind of no complexity there for the programmable pools when you create a programmable pool you specify essentially the we call it the accessor the the owner the guy or the contract that can set these fees and so um you can set up a programmable pool so you're the only person who can join it you can set up a programmable pool so anybody can join it but you're setting the fees for the whole pool uh and so there that's the kind of how that works and that's the flexibility there and if I said a different fee structure than the originator of the pool it it just creates a different pool with a different fee structure right if you interact with the UI what's happening on under the hood is you're actually creating a whole new pool with its own LPS yeah got it and that that that

fragmentation you know I think in early defi people were worried about fragmentation but now with aggregators and all kinds of active thoughts swapping and whatnot you don't really have to worry about liquidity being fragmented the any pool will get will get action as long as it's got an attractive price nice yeah that makes sense and also brings to mind some of the more uh more recent conversations on synchronous and asynchronous kind of composability um and and kind of solving the fragmentation problem with aggregators or going about a different way to solve that problem um but we'll kind of leave that for maybe another another time you mentioned uh something on

rwas and I was curious are you having conversations with some of like some of the trafi some of the the centralized Finance uh world and you know we've seen like some of the bigger institutions kind of break into the defi scene we've also seen you know with the ETFs crypto kind of take that trafi route you know thinking about the trafi coming on shame you know have you have you been having some of those conversations and generally like you know now we have the infrastructure to enable more sophisticated algorithms and models what do you anticipate these bigger institutions are going to want to do in defi like what models do you think they'll want to to run is this something

that they've been asking for like generally how can we bring more trafi on chain and and kind of have defi eat all of Finance yeah that's interesting question so the you know the first answer is we're not really talking directly to issuers we're talking to protocols who are already on chain who have done that conversation with the issuers right but now they've got this rwa that needs to be kyc so they got a real world asset and only some wh listed group of addresses can touch it from a regulatory perspective so I think we're still cracking that nut you know I think the the utility is obvious right we we all love and appreciate the utility you know permissionless trades it's super cheap and it's transparent and all all these great things I think we're still at a huge regulatory barriers right you

can't have rwas that represent traditional stocks and equities because of regulatory issues but as soon as you start kyc you know then there becomes an opportunity to do those sorts of things um so that that's that's the nut we're we're cracking now I think once that's sorted or once the regulatory elements are sorted then then you know the flood gates open but it's still early days unfortunately you know as much as I think we would all love to have our Trad portfolios on chain it's it's uh still tricky yeah it is reassuring and like I'm I'm optimistic now seeing that um these kyc and like like kind of institutional Financial players are

still going and deploying on to public blockchains like ethereum or optimism arbitrum rather than going and building their entirely new like Walled Garden that is entirely permissioned at the chain and the validator level you know at least they're coming on chain to a public chain um and then they're just deploying into a more isolated environment I mean I never really understood the you know they've already got in extremely sophisticated infrastructure and rails that they they're trusted and the giant corporations so the idea that they need some private chain to to facilitate things never really made that much sense to me so I I don't know like it it seems like of course you know they should come onto the public chains whatever they're going to do in private they can already do in private they don't need this technology forward because everybody's

already a trusted you know entity with all kinds of uh mechanisms to keep them honest uh but yeah I still think there's a huge opportunity I think there's all kinds of if nothing else retail hunger to get all this stuff on chain kind of uh Switching gears I'm curious what you think about the emergence of reaking for Defi and how that's kind of impacted uh Maverick as well as just the broader landscape this kind of new yield from aan ler and from reaking um and yeah like just the whole primitive of Ian token coming out and lrts and just how this has changed some of your perspectives in defi or kind of what you how you're looking to continue

capitalizing on this and just thoughts on the Primitive as a whole I think it's amazing I think it's I'm super excited about I think you know one of the things that you appreciate viscerally when you build a dii protocol and you've built a web 2 protocol or web2 app is in web 2 you've got to spend a whole bunch of money on the infrastructure right you've got to go pay AWS or Google cloud or whoever it is you got to hire whole Dev Ops Team because whatever you build for your app has got to live on this infrastructure and you're in charge of it and it's a it's a pain in the ass um one of the amazing things about building on web 3 is you build the thing in a smart contract you deploy the smart contract the the VM the evm is your

infrastructure it is your AWS and what's better is the users pay peruse so you don't have to worry about taking in revenue and then going and and spending it at AWS all that's transparent to you as the Builder and it's just amazing I think what reaking enables is it enables um kind of payment and incentives to to do any sort of arbitrary computer action that's verifiable right so let you create some mechanisms and you I know right now it's just like data availability right like you're paying people to have data available is is the big killer app so far but it scales so you can imagine some ways that you can do you're not constrained by just what the VM could do

you get in this web 3 AI stuff you want to do AI inference you no longer have to live just in the VM through reaking and I layer sorts of Primitives you can have people stake and they will lose their stake if they don't do the compute or the action they said they were going to do whether it's hold data or run a model for you or whatever it is um I think that's huge I it's super early days right um we haven't seen Killer super killer apps there but I think there's an opportunity to have really big killer apps there um on the kind of like mechanics of restating tokens you know that's also neat I think it's it's more tokens for dexas to trade and whatnot uh but the the core primitive is I would say the coolest part everybody loves yield but the the core primitive is is

super cool do you see more reaking providers coming online like I can layer Alternatives that will that will also uh kind of contribute to this ecosystem and or or or do you kind of see ien layer dominating a lot of it I think it's gonna be like Lio like somebody else you're going to have a whole bunch of other people doing it you know the I layers at the end of the day it's some smart contracts right it's not like um it's not like they've invented a new type of encryption or something so it's certainly forkable and replicatable and you could come up with different tweaks here and there to do other things and if you got a good BD team or a great you know momentum or a really neat new angle on it I think it's certainly possible that somebody else comes in and Scoops

up a big part of that market as well mantle is a layer to blockchain with one of the biggest onchain treasuries in all of crypto and they have a 100 day campaign called metamorphosis live now what this is is it it it is a campaign for their liquid staked eth token and eth as well as their upcoming liquid resale taking token CM e where you can utilize this token on the mantle Network in a variety of different apps some of your favorite reaking protocols and dii protocols and earn yields in the form of powder which will eventually be turning into a governance token Mantle's been around for a while we like them because they use their own form of Ian da uh they have a good ecosystem and they're

growing so check out this 100 day metamorphosis campaign and hope you guys enjoy the rest of this video another primitive that you guys are are pushing is is uh the is a kind of a a change and Improvement to ve to economics um curious how you think about this like right now we're seeing like a lot of projects deal with like investor dumps and like selling pressure and like a lot of new launches are not doing so well and there's qu there there's just a variety of different factors happening right now I'm curious what you think about building tokenomics for like long-term sustainability what is like what is the evolution of V toomics is is this a is this a

sustainable path um yeah like I I think I think that there's probably a lot to talk about here sure yeah I think so part of what's in maver V2 is is not just uh so maver V1 launched with a V map token what we kind of realize in maver V2 is like that should be a scalable model that's easy for anyone to replicate um with just just a user interface so you you create a new token and you want sticky governance you should be able to just mint a ve version of your token from from a ve Factory and so that's what is in MAV V 2 and the advantage of that is so so one thing that's kind of missing with straight well couple things so you know you invent a token um you need some market

for it and so you need some liquidity for it you need people to stake at pools you need people to stake it against um eth or dollars or something so that there's liquidity in both directions so these are all the kinds of things you need in the beginning when you're launching a token um and so one way to do it is just you put incentives into a pool whether it's through Maverick or some other interface you know Sushi kind of kind of invented that idea and curve curve innovated on it um the problem is if you just are giving incentives in your raw token people will take the incentives a super mercenary they'll take the incentives and they'll dump them and that can be fine maybe that's you know there there is a a use case for that I think what's missing in that that

typical that like V1 Sushi model is you want to encourage people to have your token in a sticky way to kind of believe in the protocol and and advertise or or uh you know get some benefit for sticking around um and so that's kind of missing in that whole emissions model where there's there's no stickiness and that's the beauty of what you know curve came up with with the with the V model in the first place is there's some stickiness you can stake the more you stake the more advantages you get you get more LP returns you get more fee returns but in the Curve Model only the CRV token like experiences all that and so what we realized in working with a whole bunch of projects is like there's an appetite to have that sort of

stickiness to have the curve or GMX flywheel for an arbitrary token and so that's that's what's going on here so now you can mint a v token for your base token you don't need a MAV token involved at all you can go incentivize uh a pool with your token and you can have it so that people who own your ve token get the Boost so all that looks very curve likee you get a boost if you if you own more token the emissions you get more if you take them in ve versus not taking them in ve and all that's tunable by somebody who creates the ve token or a pool and the ve token so the whole idea is you go to a new chain you get all these new tokens we Maverick V2 is trying to enable that flywheel not just the liquidity part but

all the parts on top of liquidity so anybody can come to the ve Factory and launch a ve token that's right it's it's so the ve contract is not owned it does have some opinions about how um about how emissions work and these sorts of things but yeah you can take you could go take usdc and meant ve usdc that will be the only ve usdc that comes from this Factory and people can stake usdc in it uh they'll get some voting power ve voting power you can actually airdrop to holders of that ve token PR of the ve you can air drop any token you want at any future time stamp you want which is pretty cool and then you can set up a Maverick V2 we call them boosted

positions and you can incentivize with usdc and you can click a button basically that means that as people get emissions in usdc they'll get a boost if if they have more ve usdc and or they'll get a boost if they stake longer so that's the kind of curve element but and none of that flywheel is is the have token invol you're able to do all this with your own token usdc is not a great example because it's stable coin but you can imagine any any new token that comes out you could do that whole thing with and so I I think like wag me Fair launch on base you know so this idea of doing Fair launches in a Maverick pool is something that a couple of folks are working on so wagm fair launch uses a Unis swap pool the whole the whole

Supply gets mted to the pool and then you know you know you know you're not going to get rugged there's folks working in with Maverick to have not just that and Maverick pool but also have the ve version of the new token and and all this other stuff built out uh which you know hopefully makes a more robust new token Eco system for that token gotcha cool well I think the last question that I have is kind of what's next for def5 um where does defi go here to achieve more product Market fit outside of our our community what are some innovations that you're particularly excited about and um yeah like what what does the next 18 months hold for for for for Maverick and also for defa yeah I mean just looping back I think it's a

you know it's the AI deck narrative seeing that play out seeing more sophisticated operations happening inside of Dex trades that's that's one element and then hopefully with you know again both programmable pools and uni hooks uh better more Nimble kyc and that sort of stuff maybe that makes it so rwa catch more traction they've caught so far I think uh there's huge appetite for rwas in the real world I think we can move that all back to to web 3 so yeah those are the two two kind of angles I'm most excited about and then what's on the agenda for Maverick there so there's still tons of building to do for for Maverick so we we've kind of built these Primitives and just launched last week but now there's we got to go build out

programmable pools we got to go build out help these protocols who are building out the fair launch thing do that and so there's still tons more to do in that space kind of build on top of all the these Primitives that we just released awesome awesome rob you got anything else to uh to close us out not a whole lot I uh I think this was a pretty good um Deep dive into some of the more modern def uh instruments um I do have questions for Bob that revolve around Quantum Computing and information Theory but I have a feeling that probably won't make it into the episode so we'll uh we'll save those for next time and uh and yeah it was been a been a pleasure Bob thanks

for coming on yeah thanks Rob thanks Andy great being here cheers man cheers yeah