Navigating DeFi's Evolving Yield Landscape with Pendle | TN, Co-founder

Transcript

when we cross reference the state of defi to say a mature Financial ecosystem it just occurred to us that fix income product is one of the largest pillars of any financial sector and it was absent in crypto we were thinking about ideas and solution and the splitting of yield appealed to us because it allowed us to build on top of other reputable and big protocols like a and compound and take their yield comping assets and and and then do the splitting of um PT and YT and allow these two components to be traded independently we' teamed up with the

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rebalancing mu rewards and automatic downside protection with new protected staking Rewards optimize your soul stake with marinade by hitting the link below Avalanche is a smart contract platform that has a novel consensus protocol subnet infrastructure and the hyper SDK toolkit which allows web free developers to easily launch custom powerful blockchain Solutions you can start building today by checking out the link below before we get into today's episode just a quick disclaimer the views expressed on this podcast by either myself or any guests are their personal views and do not represent the views of any Associated organization nothing in this episode should be construed or relied upon as as Financial technical tax legal or other advice all right let's jump into the episode what's up everyone welcome back to another episode

of zerx research we have an awesome episode lined up today with Tien one of the co-founders of Pendle a defi protocol that enables users to tokenize and sell future yield and as a reminder before we dive into the interview you can use code0x research10 at app. blockworks research.com for 10% off your annual subscription now on to the interview with Tien thanks for joining us man yeah yeah glad to be here thanks for having me of course of course so before we get started and and dive deep into the details of this can you kind of explain at a high level what Pendle is and how it works and maybe the problems it's aiming to solve yeah so Pendle is a protocol to tokenize and trade yield um so the way we do it is to tokenize a yield bearing

asset into uh PT and YT so PT refers to principal token and then uh y it for yield token so without going into the mechanics um here the the use cases that we're trying to enable with Pendle is uh firstly to enable fixed rates um so like if a user wants to obtain fixed yield on a certain asset then getting PT is is um an option and then if on the other side if a user wants to speculate on yield then buying YT is the is is the more Capital efficient way of doing so gotcha

and then one of the followup there I think pendo has seen a few Evolutions from the start and it's actually been really exciting seeing you guys sort of evolve um would you mind just walking us through the entire pendo Journey perhaps just going back to like why you started it where you got the origination from and sort of like going to the amm idea and sort of V2 and just walking us through the life cycle of the product so far yeah absolutely so um the idea of penel came about during def5 summer in 2020 because like my co-founders and I we were farming a lot of food coins that were offering 10 20,000% apy we wanted to capture as much yield as we could but there was no

instrument for us to do so because on the one hand we knew that the yields were fleeting so we were very comfortable with just taking a lower yield but try to lock it in while we can while we're still while while the rates was still relevant um but it wasn't like there was no option to do so and when we cross reference the state of defi to say a matur financial ecosystem it just occurred to us that fix inome product is one of the largest pillars of any financial sector and it was absent in crypto so I think that was the core motivation for us to think about a product that could serve our needs

because I think in lately we all value some sort of certainty um and and we couldn't do that on crypto so we were thinking about ideas and solution and the splitting of yield appealed to us because it allowed us to build on top of other reputable and big protocols like a compound uh I mean at that point they were already doing they were already sitting on around $20 billion of TBL collectively so we thought it would make sense for us to be complimentary to these big protocols and take their yield bearing assets and and and then do the splitting of um PT and YT and allow

these two components to be traded independently so we went live in June 2021 not to a lot of fanfare because I think it was a very crowded time and there were so many different products that that were out during then and they were offering much better and more attractive yields than what Pendle could do um so we didn't see a lot of traction in the beginning and and I think aside from just the apy itself the uiux wasn't the best because we it was the first implementation and it was there were there was no precedence so we had to make a lot of assumptions about how users would react or respond to certain kind of numbers and the education the

learning curve was actually pretty steep because we were introducing terms that were quite native to Pendle right like YTP for one and then there were also implied yields um and things like that so it's it's a lot to absorb and no one has the the the patience to to to go through that um but I think we saw some sort of um hope when we listed a very degent asset in the form of Wonderland time they were again I can't remember exactly what was the apy but it was like four to five digit so when we listed that asset we saw a lot of traction um we we were I think in the beginning we were

probably doing maybe 100K 50k kind of trading volume on a daily basis but when we had that very degent asset and we started to tokenize yield and make the yield trade we we we reached a pick of $5 million in trading volume um in a in a very short span of time but the whole thing I think it it came down fairly quickly when um there were some incidents over at uh Wonderland uh and then the maturity also uh we reached a maturity and then the we we decided not to continue the pool uh but you know fast forward I think we had a lot of learnings there uh and observations of how users behaved on our platform so we took a lot of that

observations and learnings and Incorporated those into pendel V2 so for a good part of 2022 it was just us rebuilding the product and then eventually we launch pendal V2 at the end of 2022 so last year 2023 we had relatively good traction um it was it was climbing steadily um but we were very fortunate to have been associated with a few narratives uh so for example in January last year we were more affiliated with LST narrative so uh I remember in January last year we developed a case study together with aura balancer and

Rocket pool in enabling users to to earn something like 15% apy on eth uh so that was a pretty popular product and I think it gave us the first glimpse of what users would would probably want from our product and then later in q1 we also um became more associated with The arbitrum Branding because we we decided to go on to L2 because of gas considerations and then at that point in time arbitrium was also gaining very very good direction so maybe zooming out a little bit and by the way that was really helpful context I appreciate the uh the history lesson on Pendle but can

you maybe Express like from a pos position standpoint like how would you express being bullish on the E staking yield as a Ste holder or bearish uh the eth staking yield and conely like how would you express you know being bullish or bearish the E underlying price yeah so um I think like if if you're if you're bullish on the eth staking yield let's say because usually it fluctuates anywhere between 3 and 6% uh and let's say you think that it's going to go beyond 6% what the the the best way to do it is probably to buy the YT so buying YT

you're effectively buying into the the uh the the yield acral between the time of Entry all the way to maturity because here the assumption is that at maturity you analyze yield is going to be more than let's say 6% and if it's trading at say 4% today at maturity you you would collect more yield just by holding YT paid out from from Lio um and and at maturity with if if you're correct you would be earning extra yield from what you paid so that difference becomes your earning now in contrast if you do not believe that the Yi is going

to be high in uh let's say at maturity what you can do is you can sell away your YT so uh after minting PTT sell away the YT so that you don't get exposed to the floating yield you convert that into um liquid sorry like stable coin for example or or the underlying asset immediately and then you can use it uh to deploy into some other venues or just hold it so um I think like yeah the these are these are just some ways but of course like you can also Express a a like similar views in the form of PT so PT is B basically a reverse uh of of uh what you would do

with YT so in the event that you are bullish then you can sell sell PT and if you're if you're bearish on the yield just buy by PT gotcha that's a super helpful explanation I think one thing that I've been super impressive is just the general growth especially in the sort of LRT narrative part of pendle's Journey I mean I wrote a research report on pendo last year at that point it was around August you guys were sitting at maybe 140 million in tvl um and I think at that point like annualized fees was like maybe 150,000 or something and today you're at basically four billion tbll fees have gone parabolic in conjunction

at least on defi Lama say around 20 plus million annualized why do you think that so much growth came from sort of like incorporating pendo into the LRT narrative versus like all of these other narratives yeah so I think um like for us we we've def definitely benefited substantially from uh these major narratives and I think um the reaking narrative is very substantial because it I think it's almost like the the the Baseline expectation of um of of yield across crypto in general so

if there's something that um that is as revolutionary as igon layer um uh coming about naturally there there's going to be a lot of interest and demand for it so I think I think for us again looking back over the last one and a half year of operating pendel V2 we've been we we have had several um accelerated growth periods and all of this happened because we were able to associate our brand with uh these big movements so we were leveraging on the likes of lsts arbitrum and real assets and LRT to to give us

that momentum to grow and then more recently I think we're also exploring like just just expanding the the points narrative uh so moving slightly Beyond and above LRT and also worked on non LRT assets like ethena but achieving a similar kind of purpose to enable uh points trading and users to speculate on yield following following up there um there's a lot of like interesting sort of trading pool on pendo you know like some are like basically duplicates of each other but they have like extra points bonuses um how do you think about those Partnerships are those like behind the scene conversations that always occur

with like these different LT teams or is it sort of like more of them approaching you soort what's like the I guess the BD sort of partnership strategy there with like all of this points craziness yeah so I think the BD aspect is actually very important so the product is important important but in this particular instance as with most of the different uh like narrative implementations that we've had in the past year BD is is um definitely an important part of it so specific to the points what BD has to do is to identify the right kind of protocols and projects to work with and then come to an

agreement on something as simple as a multiplier because because we are positioning Pendle as a venue to help grow tvl so if we look at Pendle today um Pendle actually accounts for a pretty sizable portion of tvl across most of these bigger lrts as well as ethena um and I think when we started out it's it's it it matters who we work with and the first first example is actually very very important to construct a a use case that allows us to to go to the other protocols and then uh

just give them something as a reference so very fortunately for us our first uh partner was uh is is Etha sorry ethery and they were also very generous with the multiplier so when we when we suggested a multiplier and they were receptive to it we went with it and I think in a relatively short span of time we we saw very significant surge in the interest U and then the rest of it is really just trying to improve on the uiux so from the start of the year until now we have refined the uiux quite substantially added limit order added like the the order book so that users can see the the the the

liquidity uh and and the depth of the pool um we also added a points UI just to give user an idea of how much leverage that they are entitled to if they were to purchase uh YT for example so these are the little things that happen uh subsequently uh but that's more on the product side and then of course like for BD it's it's always a matter of identifying who best work with and what kind of products that the community wants to see I wanted to follow up there um on sort of like the explosive ER growth obviously there's a lot of sort of idiocratic idiosyncratic trading

opportunities on penda right now for a lot of these LRT tokens you're seeing fixed apys of 50 60 sometimes 70% are you concerned about once all of these LT protocols launch their tokens their season one points program ends that that trading volume like significantly subsides or how are you thinking about life after like all of these protocols LRT protocols launched tokens and like points program ends yeah so I think um with with points program my view is that the points program are always uh points programs are always the intermediary between like say a main net and actual token launch so um it is a way for protocols to gain

traction and uh just just pre prior to the actual token token launch um so for us I think the strategy here is to be aggressive to identify the protocols that we can work with and then I think when the protocol is ready to convert those points into tokens then the pools will gradually I mean the pools will mature and then we probably wouldn't continue but in the meantime what we can do is to identify different segments that we can work with because I I'm of the opinion that points has now become quite a substantial goto Market strategy for a lot of these protocols right whether it's L1 L2 whichever it is like

as an example we are working with zerit to enable certain markets and deposits uh into zerit contracts the pools not sorry the the the chain is not live but they already have a substantial amount of traction because they just searched uh past a billion dollars in TBL in the last week or so so we think this is potentially an angle that we can work on um Beyond just LRT PSE igon layer uh pul ethena I think um there are many other options that we can work with woro is the leading interoperability platform for multi-chain Bridges and applications with over 1 billion messages sent and 40 billion in value transferred wormo leads

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out of the box build anything you want any way you want on the eco-friendly blockchain designed for web fre death check it out by clicking the link below Ren mentioned the exploding fee Revenue generation and I know Pendle the token plays a role here can you kind of explain Pendle ve Pendle and value cruel for the token protocol in general yeah so when Pendle gets locked up uh for like between one week and two years it um it it can be locked for V Pendle so V Pendle actually serves three purposes uh firstly it functions as a booster for the liquidity provider so if you have a LP position on Pendle and you

have V Pendle you should be entitled to some form of multiplier up to two and a half times um of a of the base apy so that's one and then secondly which is also very important right is the voting like it functions as a voting ride for uh incentive channeling because on a weekly basis there's an emission that the protocol could use to incentivize liquidity and the distribution of the incentive is very is is 100% dependent on the votes so like for example if I want this um I I want incentive to be channeled to the pool of my choice I

vote for my pool um and then if the pool gets more incentive then naturally I become a beneficiary as well and the third is a followup to the second now as a voter of pools uh incentives I'm also entitled to um some fees um so because the pool will generate swap fees uh from am amm traits as a voter of the pool if the pool makes money I can earn um I can earn a portion of that interesting okay so it's it's very similar to to curve and and curve gauges

it sounds like so have you seen uh similar Dynamics play out with ve Pendle in that as with ve curve with like large Dows kind of accumulating or is it more individuals you think that you've seen um making these votes so at the moment it's mostly individuals um we do have three liquid Lockers in in the form of equilibria pen Pai and uh Stak Dow so collectively across the board about 20% of all uh Pendle is is is locked um in a V pendo contract and a sizable portion of that went through these three different

Outlets I had a curious question heading back to the LT side of things have you guys ever considered issuing your own LRT or LST given that just thinking it to it super quickly it seems like vertical integration might potentially be a move since you guys are have a need to attract that liquidity anyway so maybe like there's additional fee revenue or additional like stickiness from launching your own LST and L curious to hear if you've ever thought about that no I think I think um yeah I mean strategically speaking we are better off working with everyone and then becoming

the Vue to trade um to for for users expressive view um than to to to be in the field and compete against everyone else I don't think we're that great uh in in in that sense um and we're better off sticking to our core have you seen any interesting Primitives like outside of Pendle and like the core contributors to to to the Pendle protocol like any um Integrations with uh pts or yts and if if you haven't which ones would you like to see pop up like interesting use cases for these tokens so I think PT as an asset um as a collateral for money markets can actually be quite

interesting we've we've seen we've seen several money markets like Silo doll Mite time swap taking in PT as collateral uh and then it encourag some sort of looping strategies for users to maximize their yield fix yield um so that that is in itself like I think quite quite exciting I believe that there is also room for CDP product because like PT even at maturity right at maturity PT will be redeemable one to one for the underlying so effectively if there is a CD CDP product um and PT is used as a collateral I think it will function very similarly to

the likes of um say liquid using some other assets uh but in this case the earning of the under like the collateral fixed yield is is known uh and then lending out um sorry like yeah just just lending it out to to to earn additional U would be pretty pretty interesting um I'm not too sure if anyone's building a CDP product on PT um but I think it's not a very difficult concept to to imagine and then there's also um index index uh of of yts because I think YT is actually a pretty interesting

asset um it represents the yield and currently the points so if you buy into say an lrts YT you you're you have an exposure in the points of the LRT protocol as well as the igon layer points uh and and of course on top of that the native staking yield so I think the role of an index could be to diversify the uh exposure to the different types of LRT so instead of buying individually the different types of yts I can just subscribe to a to um to an index product and and it helps purchase and and gain exposure to all

these different lrts so yeah it it it it is I think uh relatively reasonable product uh not very difficult to educate users about and I I think it should gain decent traction just a random idea for integration but I feel like integration with a perex for PT might make a lot of sense just because your collateral will be yield bearing and that might be an additional Advantage for the Pro just throwing ideas out here yeah maybe something to propose yeah um another question I want to ask is what are some interesting user behaviors that you see for pendo you know like what's the average trade size

what's the Frequency what's the leverage involved is it like a small like dgen holding like a $100 of like a certain PT or is it like institutional capital in pendo sort of like doing a interest rate sort of like derivative swap trade yeah so I think in terms of user behavior in the I'd say last year and this year it's changed quite a bit because the demographic has has become more Diversified and it's also increased so last year Market wasn't doing so well um people who were interested in a product like Pendle they're generally more sophisticated so we were not at the

point of targeting big institutions but but there were institution sorry there were individuals who work for big institutions um with good understanding of derivatives they would take part in Pendle markets because um to them it's probably not a very difficult concept to to understand and appreciate so I think a bulk of our user last year um is comp was composed of this this this this profile so sophisticated relatively gen with a good understanding of derivative now this year because of the points and because of like uh better display of implied leverage for YT PT

whatever it is and because of the more attractive numbers on fix yield LP we've attracted a like a broader base of users so some of these users they don't necessarily know how to uh read the chart they might not have very good understanding of what yield implied yield apy APR the differences are um and we've also encountered users who would ape Without Really knowing what the product is about so it's it's it's very mixed I'd say um but we've also seen bigger institutions participating in size um in the in the past year I think

we wouldn't like any trade that that's U several hundred thousand of dollar would be considerably uh big and rare but this year because for example PT of LRT assets they could trade at 50 60 or 70% of fixed apy and the pools are reasonably sizable most of them have more than $100 million in liquidity and as a as an institution 50% apy fixed apy is is is very attractive and if you're operating if you're managing size you can go in 2,000 3,000 eth and lock in that yield it it

makes a lot of difference to to the overall p&l so this year we started to see more of that kind of behavior and when when users bid at the YT price up to a certain level then because because when YT price gets very inflated the discount on PT also becomes much more substantial and then we see big whales coming in to scoop up a sizable amount of PT and then rebalance the the the Dynamics between PT and YT again I wanted to follow up there on the institution Fone I know you guys have a head of institution Ken and I'm curious what those conversations look like what are some like common push backs that you

receive from like large institutional fund managers when you tell them about pendo and how they can potentially trade on pendo um it also varies quite substantially so generally I'd say like if it's a hedge fund like defi specific let's say like 20 to $50 million in AUM not a lot of convincing needed to do most of them would be more concerned or look deeper into the security aspect of things so by now we have already done seven rounds of audit we take security very seriously and then we're also um we're also expecting another run of audit next month just to just to make

sure like our contracts uh the contract reviews are updated so I'd say like for defi natives that is usually the the the consideration uh for other types of Institutions that are maybe more uh trefi but looking into defy opportunities I think a couple of different considerations are uh firstly like whether the so aside from the basic security considerations uh it's also a matter of insurance um like having some sort of insurance products uh whether it's by third party or directly by the the protocol would give them some form of

assurance um and then yeah overall apy uh like everybody cares about apy but I think um uh being able to get like a certain amount of apy in size is is uh is a fairly big consideration so just to do a comparison right last year because the protocol was significantly smaller if we were to let's say trade $50,000 worth of YT it would incur maybe 1 to 2% of price impact this year it's a different different case but if they were to do a million or $2 million worth of YT trade I would

suspect that the the price impact would be also very considerable so it becomes a like um yeah like more more operational considerations like that uh and of course like then you have like the very big ones they are already trading crypto products but because of regulatory reasons they are still not involved in defi from a builder's perspective I'd love to just hear why you chose arbitrum and how that experience has gone I I believe you guys were a recipient of the first round of steps which I'm sure was pretty helpful but I guess just looking back on the decision to deploy on arbitrum do you have any regrets or like what kind of aspects went into that decision uh definitely no regrets uh

we've been great beneficiary of the growth of arbitrum so we grew together with obit trim Obby trim Foundation has also been very supportive um when we went over were the first um yield trading product on the Chain um they help with education they help aside from just like monetary support it was also publicity and we needed that kind of endorsement as a product that like I I think this is this is very valid for most Builders um the product can be good but if it doesn't have any kind of recognition it it will still be a bad

product so we've learned from seeing many other protocols the tech is solid and excellent but no one's really talking about it so they end up not getting a lot of traction and then they become forgotten we don't want to go down that route and arbitrum provides a lot more support on the like on intangibles like this more so than some other like ecosystems that we've worked with or spoken with right so I think that actually makes a lot of difference are there any aspirations to go uh multi-chain with deployments or are you guys just focusing on building

out the product within arbitrum and finding product Market fit there yeah so the expansion to other ecosystems always on the table uh but now because of resources and time it's also a consider like there there's an opportunity cost like if we want to go um we I don't think it makes a lot of sense for us to go too broad because Pendle is a second order derivative and with us Pendle would only make sense when like there's a layer of primitive that is already very established for example um LRT protocols if they're not on a certain ecosystem then it really

doesn't matter to have Pendle there because there wouldn't be any yield to trade so for now we are taking a very um I think pragmatic approach and just looking at how some of our core Partners expand like if let's say ethena expends to mental we went ahead with it and deployed mental uh deployed a mental implementation um and if they want to go somewhere else that would really I mean will definitely consider it much more seriously yeah no I think that is definitely the right move you guys are live on ethereum arum BNB chain optimism and mantle today and just wherever the narrative goes to like you guys are very

opportunistic in a good way and I think that makes a lot of sense one question I did want to ask is my knowledge may not be perfect here but in the world of trafy and interest rate swaps or derivatives right for example a fixed for floating rate swap in trafi like one party streams like the fix rate to the other one party streams like the floating rate to the other and maybe like both of them put up some form of collateral right but in my head that collateral probably doesn't need to be the full amount of collateral needed to support that amount of like yield being streamed as long as like maybe like some small amount of collateral to like account for the differences between the F and fixed yield whereas for pendle's

case you kind of need like one of the underlying to be able to sort of generate this one unit of yield type of trading opportunity so I think it's fair to say that like Pendle is a lot less Capital efficient than sort of the world of tradire interest rate derivatives do you think that's a concern long term and how do you think like we potentially overcome that like lack of capital efficiency for interest rate derivatives on chain yeah so concern not so much um I think this is a safer way to to enable rates trading at least with respect to pendal V2 but I do see the point that you

brought up and that is actually one of the one of the components that we are looking to incorporate in our design for V3 because yeah again like trefi is all about Capital efficiency so um and then leverage like what you pointed out so these are very significant considerations um I'm I'm I'm in no position to disclose too much um but I think this is something that we're internally very much looking forward to I guess that's a good time to ask what is on the road map for the rest of the year what are your your main priorities if you're able to provide any more clarity on that front yeah so we

have we have hit a pretty sweet spot with the points trading and we want to double down on that but at the same time we also need to construct and improve on the product so the effort will split between continuing our traction with points and building V3 so yeah I think we are pretty focused there following up on that question 10 years down the road which is an eternity in crypto where would you like pendo to be what would you like pendo to be yeah I've always aspired pendo to be known as a blue chip product uh within defi I hope that because of Pendle we

can we can see much bigger impact uh across the defi ecosystem in exactly how I'm not too sure but I'd like to think that we can enable uh a more circular ecosystem more efficient traits uh and because of the the the way people trade yield um something like yield curve can happen and then uh yeah more fixed rate products so it's it's very abstract at the moment I know um but I think one of the biggest draws of defi is really just apy yield and as long as yield exists there will be a room for Pendle to to work on um and I think right now we're

barely touching the surface because there's a lot more different types of yield that we're still not working on for example borrowing yield which is I'd say a a bread and butter of any money market um funding rates uh yeah lending rates so these are all the different types of rates that I think we can work on but we have not really started on uh targeting this yet one thing that you guys do really well is education and I think that been like a a slow process over the past few months you know you guys have that uh pendo intern account which always puts out like great trading ideas you guys have a bunch of educational resources at

this point like it's like lessons literally um on like pendo Finance the PT the YT sort of like the complexities of the protocol how do you think about educating the users over time and like what are some strategies that you think have worked really well um education is very difficult if if anything I think this is probably one of the most challenging aspect of running a complex product because like Unis you don't really have to educate it's very intuitive but for something like Pendle like it or not I think this is what we are we're we we we're uh we have to deal with uh and we see it as an opportunity for us to inculcate uh certain Concepts and then like give user

a better understanding of how things work the mechanics um in terms of Education I don't think there's a okay it it again like to to be specific in terms of strategy I think it really varies from product to product but for us specifically uh what we did was aside from just having the materials in place it's also about the dissemination of it I think far too many times a lot of people focus on like the construct of the content but they don't think too much about the distribution of the content for us we're trying to balance both so content it has to be uh has to be in place first and foremost and then in terms of dissemination right it's identifying the right types of people to

work with because if they get the product and most of them after they realize the potential of Pendle they become very strong Advocates so we started to basically in the in the early days we were identifying high quality content creators to work with they might not necessarily be the biggest account but they put in the effort to to learn about the mechanics and then they became very strong Advocates uh and then they cultivated uh community of their own and they they passed on the knowledge uh so so that's one I think uh another very important strategy that that we went after was to construct use cases so I

mean like case studies right um it's easy to say like this protocol can do this and that but it always helps when people can actually see how things work and then they try it and then they appreciate the process so when we think about education it's not just about like the material uh and of course like dissemination is important right but we try to reinforce all this material with actual case studies that protocols and third party uh third party protocols users and and funds can refer to quite easily yeah that makes a lot of sense I I know that trying to get people educated on things is not easy but I'm sure the uh

the points craze is definitely helped with motivating people to learn which is which is great for you guys but I was curious wanted to throw you a softball on just Market opportunity here how big is the interest rate derivative Market in uh traditional finance and how big is it on chain today and like where do you see this growing over the next maybe two to three years and and what changes need to be made in order to get there h again very tough question it's it's very big it's a couple of hundred trillion um in in in in in size uh in trefi um specific crypto I think it's it's a fraction of that uh also because like crypto is significantly smaller than the like trefi out there um but in terms of

enablers I think um I think what we do is is um quite important in enabling the market to grow um especially in in the form of V3 because ultimately when we look at like crypto a lot a big part of it is is is yield right so we're not just looking at e staking yield and E staking yield at the moment is probably the reference rate but at the same time if we look across different ecosystems like Cosmos and Solana these are all different yields that we could potentially capture and trade and there is a whole lot of dependency on like the Solana staking

Guild for example because there there are a lot of products that are building on top of Solana and a lot of products building on top of Cosmos um so if we could enable some instrument I hope we could enable that uh if if if we do that then I think um we can reduce a layer of uncertainty for a lot of these protocols and with some certainty I think yeah maybe more different types of use cases uh could could could happen I think uh Sam do you have any last questions I think that's all the questions I had on my end but Tien is there any sort of last final thoughts that you wanted to share with our audience a call to action perhaps or where they could find you um yeah like to to find me I I'm

available on Twitter like tennor Pendle uh also on Discord most of the time so it's not very difficult to reach me um I think we have a fairly interesting lineup of assets that we would be listing in the next couple of weeks we are constantly experimenting with different types of narratives uh and hopefully we could find something more meaningful that that that could serve the community better um we're here to stay so like there's a lot more that we want to achieve um and I think yeah the the the points the points trading narrative has

given us a very very important boost but we're definitely not stopping here nice that's great to hear and for the listeners there are some really really fantastic trading opportunities out there on pendo I am kind of disappointed at myself for not being more active on pendo especially with the ER C because I know some people made a decent amount of money from farming some of the whether that's a cathena or like other toos on so there's still time there's still time but thank you so much for coming on TN we'll have to get back you get you back on at some point once V3 launches and all of these new markets are Incorporated later down the year sounds good yeah thanks for having me yep take care we have themed up with the

wormo foundation stewards of the wormo protocol the leading interoperability platform powering Crossing transfers for over 200 plus multichain dabs Wormhole isn't just a bridge it's the leading interoperability platform for multi-chain Afric if ation so go and claim your unique worm nfts just for zerox research listeners today hit the link in the description to fill out a form and to prove that you've listened to today's episode and receive a PO app you get an email over the coming weeks to claim your limited edition nft [Music]