The Movement to Make Blockchain Security Sexy w/ Rushi Manche (Movement Labs)

Transcript

[Music] hello welcome back and thank you for tuning in for another episode of The Strange waterer podcast let me take you back to 2017 at the beginning of the year Bitcoin was about $900 and ether was about $9 what would follow over the next year could probably be called crypto's first significant bubble or at least the first one that can still be seen on the max view of the BTC price chart needless to say there was a lot going on enough to 15x the price of BTC and 100x the price

of eth but we're going to focus on one specific project that began a movement sometime in 2017 a guy named Morgan Beller began experimenting with blockchain over at Facebook though the party would be over and The Hangover in full force in the markets by May 2018 Facebook began to take this project seriously and created a blockchain division the first time the public got a glimpse of this project was about a year later when the Wall Street Journal announced that Facebook was building a cryptocurrency based pain payment system dubbed Global coin or Facebook coin the project would finally be

formally announced under the name Libra in June 2019 the project itself was pretty interesting but it quickly ran up against regulatory concerns in the end Facebook was not willing or able to push it through and at first they announced a rebranded slim down version of Libra called DM and DM never even saw the light of day and 2022 it was formally wound down and sold to silvergate Bank in the end Libra DM met the same fate as so many project in our industry scrapped and sold for parts under the heavy weight of globally scaled expectations but in our industry failure

is just part of the process it's an opportunity to take what worked well and to learn from what didn't in this case face Facebook left us with a resource that is just now seeing its time in the Limelight the move smart contract language the language Champions security through a design aspect ensuring that assets cannot be cloned instead assets are non-fungible with one owner at any given time and so in an industry traumatized by enormous hacks and constant security threats the move language is offering an extremely compelling environment for blockchain application development but in order to use the move

language we need a move environment movement Labs is building an ethereum layer 2 blockchain based on the Move language and a high performance parallel execution environment today's guest movement lab's co-founder rousi mche is here to give us a deep dive into the power of move and the vision movement Labs just raised $38 million to deliver not only will this episode help you understand the power of this technology but it will also give you a glimpse into how movement will support their Community Drive New research and in their own words make security sexy one more thing before we begin

please do not take Financial advice from this or any podcasts ethereum will change the world one day but you can easily lose all of your money between now and then okay and now rousi Manion rousi thank you so much for joining us on the strange waterer podcast hey RX how's it going thanks for having me of course man so I'm so excited to talk about movement labs and like all the incredible things that are happening in the move ecosystem and uh also your specifically your incredibly exciting news but uh before we get to any of that I am a huge believer that the most important part of every

conversation are the people in it so with that as a frame can you tell me a little bit about who you are how you found crypto and like really ultimately what Drew you so much to the movement ecosystem sorry the move ecosystem yeah the move e system U I'm actually co-founder movement um I've been nurs s since I was like 14 15 um started off just engineering web 2 um worked at United Health Group as a software engineer just got really into distribut systems databases um cloud architectures and whatnot I was there around like 3 years ago I stum Cosmos a family friend of mine was also a builder in space um and to me was very interesting because building decentralized Finance systems and custom blockchains for use cases um so start engineering the cosmism um and

even some solidity engineering I think that was like in high school for me and then got at college and also was doing that um and for me it was like really exciting because I was like learning about like Java and JavaScript in my college classes even though it was super easy for me um at the same time I was like working on a decentralized finance applications which were actually useful um after it kind of progressed I read this article one day from like New York Times or something um that Facebook was building a programing language and for me like I was building Cosmos where there's like 10 users and even with evm not that much users compared to like traditional we to um and this was exciting to me because like Facebook the biggest consumer app the app that um all of crypto trying to get on chain is

build their own program language building their own framework um and ultim launch your own blockchain to power of a user on Facebook um for those UNF familiar the DM project of Facebook designed to be a stable coin um for Facebook's users to interact with each other and they built a new program language in virtual machine um because they realized the the current ecosystems and Frameworks couldn't really scale um SEC and regulation cash sh it down and it spun off into two major blockchains appos and three um and I was one of the first engineers and early builders in appos system um so here I was this like broke college kid just building a deck on appos um I think I post FDX I really took a step back and was like this move ecosystem and framework is really interesting um it has all the to salana

so like high through put paration um localized fee markets um but also has security element which is kind of the main thing that gets me excited is like how do we stop the $ four and half billion dollars loss every hacker attacks um so the best of security and speed combined and our thes was to bring to ethereum um and then November 2022 the movement thesis started great so um and we'll get to a little bit like in a little bit we'll get to this movement thesis and like where the opportunity that you saw was but while we're still in the Facebook part of the story can you talk a little bit through um I guess first from like your initial like exposure to the the program to what Facebook was doing like did you understand that as like a

really let me just like be direct so like Facebook is kind of like the antithesis of the things that we find interesting about crypto right like super centralized um like so much just about like entrenched uh powers and like Network effects of like controlling all your own stuff centralized like was there any sort of like tension or cognitive dissonance in like Facebook building this technology that was like so critical to um decentralized Finance or did you kind of see that as like the beauty of the space in that like it's really about the technology and the technology no matter who builds it will like push us in a decentralized way I F at web too like even like websites were

supposed to like pretty nich to start off right there's a few groups pioneered it um and kept some groups like felt like internet wasn't meant to go mainstream um but eventually big Tech came in and then everyone used internet now so my general thesis is like yes um like Facebook is the anti-thesis it is like essential Authority we're trying to deth in Facebook essentially um but I don't think that's the way to approach it holistically right there are certain use cases and groups um that prefer decentralization Anonymous privis um and decentralized networks like that's what Bitcoin and user Bitcoin Mak sense there shouldn't be kind of centralized regem um controlling Bitcoin nor will there ever be but I think the the principle of blockchain is a decentralized compute decentralized databases decentralized

systems that even big Tech can leverage um and it's kind of we should Usher like productivity there because that's how we get like retail adoption actual people using it um I think if we T stay too tribalistic we're still only going to tap out like 80 users we won't ever actually get mainstream adoption that we all want um so like the question I always ask myself is how do I get my mom using crypto she probably won't use like a random Anon Dex um on some random L one she probably use a product built by Facebook yeah I hear you like I I agree like my mom should never will never like touching a DEX even touching like even touching a stable coin or touching the train directly like isn't the endgame that I see like the end game that I see is the let's say like ethereum or any of

these blockchains they're like HTTP right where they're used every single day but only by like these letters and no one understands what's beneath the hood and why that's important they just care about like getting the job done right and so um totally with you on that that like we can't be too precious about like our tribe and like the things that we care about and like keep out somebody like Facebook but I guess my question to you is like let's rewind the clock and say that the SEC and like all this regulatory stuff didn't like uh Shake Mark Zuckerberg off the plate and like they were still playing this game do you think that crypto is in a better space a worse space or a different space because Facebook is still here versus like the

actual history that uh played out well I think we'd have a lot more like attention and uses on chain because if this DM and Liber product went into place you would have fundamental digital currency on the biggest consumer app in the world so imagine like you're in Bangkok and your mom's in like New York you can send money directly within the Facebook app um internationally with low fees low latency and fully secured um so I like I think everyone wishes for that dream where payments are at speed of light um there's not that much you don't need to wear for Bank WIS and all the ridiculous fees that come with it um so I think it was it was that good and it was a really good project um but I think like we can get there even without Facebook being there makes sense all

right so let's uh fast forward to the movement uh like moment like talk us through what what the opportunity you saw was and like why you were the right person to capture this yeah so it was been one of the first dexes or apps on atas which is the main blockchain that spun out of the Facebook project um and my general frustration in the space was like it was also post fpx so anything non evm was pretty much like dead um even like Sal was trading like $8 and people like Sal's bringing zero um and most people kind of ritten off non EVMS I think for me was like I really believe the movie system like the language the framework the history um but there wasn't really a work through need of push it was more of like you have these two massive chains um that raise a lot

of money but honestly the each system Community was lacking at the time especially post FTX um like there wasn't like the DJ we the native culture so my general thesis was how do we bring um like this cutting of Technology from one of the biggest Tech Giants in the world and bring it to the the web the culture and we the native culture that we all love and bring it to ethereum um so that's kind of a h moment where you have the best of web two the best of web 3 which is ethereum and combine both in a One Stop Shop totally makes a lot of sense and I guess um we'll talk about movement but like on the Move language specifically like let's just spend a few moments talking about what were the innovations that Facebook brought to the table like let's say over solidity or

over any of the other languages and like what did you see right there that like needed to be protected that needed to be nurtured that needed movement uh labs to happen yeah so there's two main things the first is speed um so the DM project Pioneer block STM um which is like an optimistic penalization engine that kind of takes an's paralyzed VM to the next level um we won't get too technical in it but essentially it brings High through localized Fe markets multiple threaded processing um all within the virtu machine and then the second part is security so um every year I can touch down there's 4 and a half billion lost evm has no like essential protection against that um what move and the DM prodct really focused on is how you do

formal verification at run time um so move VM has a move prover built into it so essentially when a smart contract is executed it checks for resource type and memory safety um so let's say for example there's integer overflow in the evm there's nothing stopping there's no firewall for crypto for smart contracts the move VM essentially is a firewall built directly into runtime um so if any developer messes up and puts a wrong run of code there actually compow that flag and the code doesn't get processed and there's ways to silence transactions um so the combination of high through but blockchains um like the SL experience with the auditor essentially runtime is essentially the most perform per execution envir environment in crypto I hear you my life is about tradeoffs

right and so like it sounds like we're getting some incredible benefits in terms of like safety and uh throughput um but like when I hear safety I hear also like a ton and ton of overhead and when I hear throughput like I hear that sounds like you're just going to need incredibly powerful computers to run it and like both of those have uh kind of implications on decentralization and so I guess my question is like it when we're building in the move VM what tradeoffs like are we making um and like just more specifically like does is the move VM like the salana VM in that or like salana and that it requires these like super high power nodes in order to

operate a network so the I'll ENT the second question first um the movi itself is execution environment so so like appens yes the S you hire beu valuators it's pretty centralized it's kind of one of the thes is why ethereum ler to makes sense because you're still leveraging ethereum security decentralization but you're bringing the paraliz engine to ethereum so while you're sacrificing some of the speed enhancements you have all the decentralization and kind of the builtup um credibility ethereum has in one EOS system and kind the first thing on tradeoffs on move is it's a new program language um which creates a lot of developer fragmentation because um obviously all the developers all the most let say 90% liity today is in the

evm so the question is okay are you going to convince every single developer in crypto to write move completely Market over um and our general thesis is we don't expect them to if you want to use a un swap some of these Blue Chip def5 protocols it's probably best to stay in the evm because there's already liquidity there there's already Network effects we're arguing that the future of decentralized Finance the future of gaming consumer should be built in uh Superior program which um and kind of movement ethos which we can touch on later is actually where a remove evm so not only is a move Rich machine but you also support evm code um which is another main thing we kind of bring to the table mhm yeah and that's super interesting I'd love to like dig into that um again while we're still in this

like pre moment like the the other way you could go with this is like where a lot of the ZK projects are going where they're creating like general purpose VMS and then allowing like any sort of like rust application to deploy on it and I guess like my question for you is like why do you think it's important that in these like blockchain computing environments we stick with blockchain Native languages like do you see um what types of applications do you see that like move is going to enable that this whole like World of like we're just going to allow computer programs to have commitments and then somehow now their blockchain uh computer programs like what do you think is being missed there yeah so my running joke is like everyone wants to bring Facebook on chain bring

social consumers apps on chains so my question is why to choose the language that Facebook themselves built right um so the long-term playbook for the movie system and general language is to be the flagship hub for smart content development in terms of social consumer if you want to build gaming D not going have to use are built into the language itself um which enable for upgrading of Trace at will which solves all the state issues we're seeing with evm for Consumer Maps you have like traits built into the language itself it's much more intuitive for newer developers um the way the language is designed is if you're like a web developer you know rust um it's very easy to pick up move for example writing account checks um which is one of the biggest things when you do building a def5 application it takes about 10 or 15 lines and move um

and the svm it takes around two pages for the evm it takes like days and weeks um so the velocity production to make consumer or any kind of apps is about like 90% quicker um which helps like new developers come in like when Zuckerberg built Facebook he was in his dorm room and is able to push a project in like three weeks that same project can't happen to in crypto because it's a big Financial incentive if you rush a product your product get hacked you launch launch and Lo all your users in a week um so that's why security and performance really important um so move kind of enhances that um and the kind of work that we're doing is bridging over both lines because currently you have a lot of solity developers so question is how do you go to market for them um and

that's why the E interpret and whatnot cool so let's talk about what movement is and I think that like you know as you said we've got like now a couple years of uh of like history to it and I know that like through that history we have an avalanche chain and we we're talking about ethereum l2s now now so can you talk us a little bit through what movement Labs is like with this um with walking us through the history of what you've built so far yeah so we started off like post FTX there's pretty much only three systems where you could do a r based VM uh this is before like all the zvm stuff really came to Market um it was avenge Cosmos and Polkka dot um Cosmos was a bad choice for us because they didn't have a centralized like e system it was really difficult um for

any kind of new network to be boost trapped at the time and then Pok wasn't in the best shape of time so it kind of Us Al in and then from there we really fell in love this idea of like evm liquidity to move um and ultimately wound up on this movement L2 thesis um so what movement is it's a first move evm layer to ethereum um we're using ZK FR proofs right now as a main Ro AR architecture with plans to eventually have our own vity proofs um via custom built ZK move circuit um we have our own shared sequencer which is M1 so the Valor is part of the shared sequencer sequence L to as well as a to the network so similar to like the optimism Playbook where optimism has a main D5 chain the optimism chain which is rm2 um they have the super chain which is the

share sequencer that's our M1 and they have op stack which is our move stack um where anyone can launch their own um Ro to connect to the network um can you so I I like love that you eventually like landed on an L2 I think that's the right move but I think what's really cool about your story is that you spent time in the Avalanche ecosystem and I think think that like you will take away lessons that like most people that just like come to ethereum and stick to ethereum will never like experience like basically the echo chamber problem and so I'd love like do you have any like insights or takeaways that like you took from building first an avalanche subnet that like really informs the product that you're building today I think the

community is pretty like vibrant like one thing I realized like this is Peak bare Market when price action was not doing the best for AAC and even salana um for first of all the team is very supportive um we were two random college kids with no track record no background uh no like rise or fame um and they really took us in helped us out um was on weekly calls with us so they really cared about its Builders um and a community was supportive so we able boost strap our early users early kind of Believers from The Av system um just because people believed in it um I think like it was a good if it if we're SC like 0 to 100 it was a good 0 to 20 um but we couldn't scale beyond that because liquidity concern also we need to be our Network um is also the whole

subnet thesis which I'm not sure how that's playing out um but yeah I think it was a good lesson to like be around people who really cared yeah I do have a lot of questions with like how Avalanche works in the subnet thesis as well but um so can you talk us through like this transition like what was the moment that you realized like it's right to Pivot to ethereum L2 and like what from your understanding in that pivot to ethereum L2 what were the things that you were gaining and what were the things that you were giving up I think like some of the things are giving up is like the original architecture actually was move L1 so like going to compete with Aon season the world I think what we correctly realize is the market doesn't need another L1 especially move L1 right

there's already two big l1s are well funded they already had a good system it the a move on Evac subnet would not be accomplishing a new user experience there was no Market to be met um whereas when we look the move L2 there's a clear Market to be met right you had a next generation of vers machine with ethereum users and ethereum liquidity what we realize quickly is that like ethereum users love to stay on ethereum and they won't really migrate to the change so to do that go to market to uh bring move as Prevail as possible it couldn't be an avalanche it needed to be on ethereum and I I like to think that one of the most brilliant parts of the L2 thesis is like sure we can talk about it from like blockchain scaling or like any of the like nerd things but like just from a

marketing standpoint like the LT thesis is allowed everyone to like build projects on ethereum and like users to move into those projects and still call themselves ethereum Maxi and ethereum aligned and so I think like that's what's really cool by moving to ethereum L2 you can capture all these people that are interested in the technology you're building but like without forcing them to like make like identity changes in like who they are and what they believe in in this space exactly I think like obviously we're in a space where it's pretty tristicolor you have those people who like love AUM kill for eum um and if you're trying to bring like a new extion environment that already is a big Challenge and if you

force them to leave ethereum they probably won't um so I think you pick your battles and like we'll stay on ethereum we'll cater to you but we're going to present to you an alternative to the evm very cool so um like as of uh today like talk to us about like what what movement Labs like what the product is today are you um like launching this L2 are you like entering into a testnet like just talk us a little bit where like the product development is yeah so today the products mainly focused in the move L2 um starting off with bringing execution into ethereum we're on devet right now announcing incentivize test net over the next two or three weeks um so super excited to have people playing around with and using different apps we built out a pretty successful system of native apps of move apps of EV apps um

so that should be ready for people to use um yeah pushing for to main that over the next few months and so like as you said from your experience in avalanche like the big takeaway that you got there was that a Vibrant Community and a supportive Community can make up for like a lot of things that might be lacking like let's say price action or tvl that kind of thing um and I think that that like that's a great lesson for like projects that are just starting off like for example a brand new L2 and so I'm wondering um how do you think about like creating a like vibr community in which like young college kids like yourself are like interested in like trying something new and and like feel supported by um by you guys and by the

other teams around you I think it starts off with leadership um so like one thing that we particularly do Al Cooper and I is like we're in the discords we're talking to the builders we're doing a lot of the F like BD just so people can like understand the vision directly from the people who like Inspire the vision right I think a lot of times in crypto it's like the foundation give a web two incorporate um so if I'm a r I'm Builder I don't really get in touch with leadership I don't get in touch with people um who really pass the the vision um so I think it starts from a top down perspective um being humble from a Founder perspective going in the Grassroots um creates ethos that like you are welcomed you are wanted um and this is a community initiative I think

it's also goes to show like how you present yourself on social media right um I think one issue of like other L ones in the past is they came off to corporate um and there's like a lot of bureaucracy to get to building whereas like we're in Discord we're in the telegram groups um it's pretty easy to get in touched with us and build on top of us and get developer support um as well as like how we did grants distribution making sure that tokenomics are also um commun driven and and like are there like are you looking into directly creating programs and pipelines to like like are you doing some sort of accelerator model like again I I think in this um industry like the hardest thing to do is to get people excited um and get people to feel like you know

pass that level of support of like oh these guys like care about it on Twitter but like when I'm trying to build my business um like why would I like put my bet here versus somebody like Avalanche who like you know has like a bigger name or like somebody like salana who has like more momentum um like what are how are you going to like differentiate the community and like the resources for people that want to build with move I think the first step is unlocking use cases to presenting to the market um like why you're not just s the evl too right I think this this the market saturated when there's like 800 evm l2s and each L2 is vampire attacking each other andain predatory devs there's actually n new there's no net new value

creation because the same developers and users are hopping chain to chain just to air drop Farm or just to get the token allocations they want right um I think the first thing that we're doing is like look we're category leader in terms of um Next Generation environments on top of ethereum you can do things like gaming um a consumer that you couldn't do on the evm because the chain could like simply couldn't handle it um I think inscriptions look the best use case sign like obviously it's not use case but most evm chains went down during descriptions ZK s arbitrum both Tapped Out 100 TPS um which shows that sequencers can't really scale um Avalanche had gas feeds of over $500 ethereum itself was unusable um so there's a clear like whether there actually users and volumes on these major evm chains they simply cannot

scale um and for users or developers that are trying to build onchain gaming or um even like order books that need High throughput you can't have um single threaded machines so presing that Nar to the market as well as the security side right if you want to build a defi app that's not getting hacked for billions of dollars you have to write in a program that's for program language that's formally verified so combining those two elements of hey we're the fastest Block in the market we're also most secure Block in the market you kind of get a unique use case um to present the market and the second thing is just how you do your social media marketing presenting as a a Grassroots effort that if you're coming to community you're going to be welcome and support by community um and yeah I think we done a good job

of combing both of the technology as well as a good G um Community person initiative so let's talk about applications like what are the most exciting things happening right now like in let let's start with like the whole move ecosystem so if you're looking at Aptos if you're looking at s if you're looking at like some of the people that are early in movement and like understand what you're building what what is um move unlocking for like Builders and and like yeah what is move unlocking that we haven't seen in evm or in svm or like in blockchain today yeah I think like I touched on like the process of having fully formally verified apps so a lot of like these major like looking funds family office and users U could never really get insurance to back collateral because of

smart comp risk so if I have like ,000 eth or even scale like a million dollars an eth I never felt comfortable deploying Capital into an EV evm blockchain or evm app because the smart risk was so high even the most blue def protocols like Cur kyber um most recently munches blast like they present somewhere smart RIS smart RIS so that for any Capital deployer um it doesn't really make sense uh to do that when you just hold it in like a cold wallet or not I think with move you can stop 90% of attack vectors um with move approver so it provides a much more secure execution environment where if you're looking to deploy capital on chain it is the most secure way to not only deploy Capital but also to earn insurance so

lot the work that we're doing is a obviously bulletproof in the VM and sequencer but potentially partner with insurance providers so imagine deploy ethon chain in the past insurance premiums were so high because smart risk so there's never actually a good way to get insurance imagine a world where you can deploy e onchain it's fully for verified um so the insurance premium is much lower which actually incentives more Capital Comm chain and a lot of a go to market BD which were announcing shortly we have aot of TBL commitments um from funds that never felt comfortable in the past and now can deploy funds into users um and defi apps can actually Mark that as like we are the most secure yield here we're the most secure decks um and then on the Speed and Performance side like I think obviously consumer gaming um it's a

language that Facebook built to build Facebook on chain so if you're building a gaming app or social app you lot of as minting um in the evm you're constantly minting and burning NT is trying to upgrade state so for example D5 King broke Harmony then they broke avalan so they need their own chain um so with move you actually don't really need that customized St because you have a paralyzed engine so if you have like one Crazy Event on one thread let's say you have inscription event it doesn't affect Unis swap another thread doesn't affect your game on a thread so you can actually have multiple threads within one chain instead of need like l3s L fours L FES and and I feel like this like paralyzed VM is kind of like the Hot Topic right now especially with this latest like monad raise of just some

ungodly amount of money can you talk through I guess first of all like what actually does parallel parallelized VM mean like how is that um maybe like different from our general understanding of like the evm or just help us understand when people say parallelized parallelized um paral like yeah whatever when whatever they say that um why is that important and then can you kind of compare and contrast like these different implementations like salana like salana monad um move like these all like claim to have the same technology but us understand like what are the the the specifics that like make these Technologies different yes so the evm if

you look at it kind of execution environment it's single threaded um which means you're waiting for transactions to occur sequentially so if there 100 transactions happening A to B B Toc C to D you're waiting for each transaction to happen after each um thread so that's why like transaction times are longer they're more expensive um typically when there's not a lot of volume that work it doesn't really matter but when you have high volume events such as like an purpose Market or a game actually cost a lot of State congestion um most chains tap out around 20 TPS um which means gas feeds get really high so let's say for example like GMX and orbitum when GMX goes crazy in terms of volume orbit as a chain slows down because it's only one thread

processing all these transactions imagine like multiple thread processing that's what the Sal of VM move BM brings the table P execution so instead of waiting for a A to B B to C C to D you're doing a b c d all in conjunction each other you're not waiting so it's like asynchronous execution um that's one thing the second thing is the Conant of localized fee market so because it's multiple threads like the Kon if you have one high event action um so if you have like let's say a game going crazy a lot of users on one game um that's on one thread and if you have Unis swap on another thread the user experience on the Unis swap isn't change because it's a complete different thread um so because you can is state to different threads it allows you to man State much

more effectively so that's how you get these random numbers of like 10,000 20,000 30,000 TPS um honestly that's more of a markeing term Sal right now is topping like 2,000 TPS which is pretty good um they'll probably push like 5,000 within the next few weeks and few months um but yeah the the concept of executing transaction asyn usly with multiple thir environments enabled for high execution which is much needed today but so this is predicated on the idea that like the parallel transactions that you're running are like completely completely independent of each other so like your GMX example like you have this per Market that's creating a ton of activity and then maybe on arbitrium as well you would have this like brand new nft mint and that's causing a bunch of uh

activity and in a Serial VM like they both like need to happen one after another and so like everything is super expensive in a parallel VM like they can handle separate they can be in separate threads and not affect each other right but it in blockchain like the the whole point is that this is a shared space and like just like let's be really simple like I can't imagine how um in ethereum world like we basically every transaction in some way needs to touch the price of eth right and so like how can we run these like parallel transactions when each transaction affects the price of eth which affects the next transaction which like ultimately like by by how do are there

major choke points that like um that parallel VMS like still are limited by in the same way that a Serial VM is limited by I think there's a few like security assumptions that haven't explored um obviously Sal's having downtime issues with the consensus and how they're handling different nodes but I think that's getting fixed um I think like the point eth doesn't really matter as much because if you're using gas fee denominated e for example like movement the gas fee at least to start will be eth um so you're doing transaction in eth and Oracle updating that in real time um so really comes down to like how quickly lat with oracles um which to date has been pretty good so I think it works like generally same as arbitrum optimism in terms of um like kind of e

price action I don't see that being concern I think like if there was any bottom next to paration is like um it gets tricky for certain applications because in salana it's not optimistic paralyzation like developers have to actually manually handle the tra between different paralized threads so developer experience in salana isn't always the best um kind of benefits of block STM optim optimistic realization so engine actually handles um how transaction workflow is handled so let's say for example my game is doing a lot of volume and there's another thread with Unis swap um in salana that because there's no optimization this this on more a developer to manage kind of the tradeoffs whereas in the mve BM and BLM patterns like what manad is doing um

that's kind of handled within the state so got it so it sounds like like you know parallel processing Is Not A New Concept right like that has been we we solved that for like Hardware processors for VMS a long time ago and it sounds like um we can totally have this kind of Technology whether it's in move whether it's in salana or even if we wanted to apply it to the evm like in monad and the reason that they like originally didn't put it in the evm or in the bit bit VM or in any of these like uh blockchain environments is like to make the tradeoff on decentralization and to keep the um node requirements super low and what the trade-off that all of these

paralyzed VMS are making is hey like whether we like are going to make different decisions on decentralization or we're going to rely on ethereum mainnet for the like trustless properties um like we're just going to like soup up our computers enough to have like the processing power to run parallel VMS and then like Leverage like all the benefits of this like very modern technology is that right no makes perfect sense I think like um Melana kind of pioneer like we were sacrificing decentralization for Speed I think that's where this like next Chan L2 narrative kind of makes a lot of sense because you're still retaining the sovereignty and Ethos of ether recentralization but you're bringing performance specs to it even like the

core ethereum people are like we love ethereum it's a principle but the evm is really difficult to work with solity is really difficult to work with if you talk to Nick from fuel he's actually like one of the early ethereum and evm developers he was on the calls when solity was de develop um and now he's building fuel which is essentially a new paraly on top of ethereum um but even like the ethereum OG people are like recognizing The Faults of evm while while they're building evm um and like even vitalic recently called for paraliz for ler so let's talk about like the layer two that you're building um when you're building like first of all um how important do you think it is to have shared sequence s to distributed sequencers for an L2 is that something

that you're building for like the movement L2 and that like so that you can make guarantees that like the sequencer that you're running if it ever goes offline like you'll still have uptime and liveness or do you think that like that is kind of like a nice to have that's not core to what it means to be a L2 like how do you think of decentralization at the um sequencer level yeah I think like the future is decentralized sequencers um for arum optimism based already making a lot of money of this the sequencer so they're not incentivized um to decent I it um they've they've just declared they're going to do it eventually but no one really knows when that it's going to happen because they're printing money of these sequencers um I'm generally bearish on the B2B shared sequence

replace like the groups that are saying um like we're going to integrate with a bunch of rollups I think that's really difficult because ultimately an EOS system itself needs to Pioneer the shared sequencer or decentralized sequencer um because you need volume it doesn't matter if some random rollup uses a decentralized sequencer if there's no volume users and good market around it I think that's why we're approaching it even like all these next Channel 2s are really focusing on is a we need a decentralized sequencer because um we have a paralyze high performance VM so centralized seor won't scale the performance won't scale um we want to guarantee up time even if the node goes down so from P from Pure Performance Point of View it's very important and the second thing is also tokenomics right um most lar to

tokenomics are essentially meeme coins and just governance tokens there's no actual utility there with a decentralized sequencer ultimately a shares sequencer valers can actually participate in the sequencing you actually have more decentralization because if I'm running a node for let's say arbitrum and decentralize it I can stake the ARP token or in this or our case stake the move token to participate in sequencing and earn sequencing fees for the network so if I'm a huge like movement fan I can run my own node State the token and get the fees generated from Layer Two as well as other layer twos in a network so that brings me to the third point where these shared sequencers enable kind of a network of blockchain Beyond slay to um kind of the benefit of optimism ecosystem isn't optimism anymore it's base um their

biggest client so we envision the future where there's going to be a bunch of rollups we envision a future where movement itself itself may not be the biggest rollup there may be like AI rollup or a gaming rollup that has more volume we want them to be connected to the major system via share sequence serves easy liquidity transfer um so the combination of those different things make it sense for us day or decentralizing yeah I so first of all in your head do you um is shared sequencer and distributed sequencer is that like two sides of the same coin is that the same technology no so it's decentralized sequencer which simply means there's multiple nodes taking part in sequencing Network sh sequencing is we have multiple rollups connected Network um so for our mainnet purposes we're starting off

decentralized because there probably won't be another movement roll up until mainnet once we have one or one or more new RO joing system that's going to become shared so shared sequen there two two more than one rollups a decentralized sequencer is multiple nodes a shared sequencer is decentralized a decentralized sequencer isn't shared so in this I've been thinking a lot about shared sequencers and I've heard um Ben Fish from espresso talk about it a lot and I think like when you're when you're sitting in this like the sequencer the node operator seat like it makes so much sense that like oh I can sit here and see all this different order flow across all these different chains and I because I have this unique perspective I can create transactions and extract a ton of value

for me right like my question is always on the L2 side which is like why would I want to opt into a system where like there is a huge amount of value that is like extracted out because we have this like um this connection to like another ecosystem that I don't even care about like put another way like base might be looking at what's going on now and say like huh if like if optimism had a shared sequencer and like were able to extract a ton of me out of our ecosystem like that just sucks for us like why would we like allow that and not just spin off into our own system and so like

do you have any thoughts on on like the tension in um in shared sequencing and like does it make sense for all parties involved or is this something that like really still needs to be thought through and worked out yeah I think like this is where dual seeking get way exciting and what we're working on as well because yes if it's single staking single side of staking then why would base give up its clearly brilliant business model and sacrifice that to opis in a super chain unless there was huge financial incentives what dual staking and this probably what optim is also working on is these valers are sequencing both optimism and base and movement and other lups are dual sticking valers so you take the op token and the future hypothetical base token um within the

same node So within movement you the Val St the move token but if they want to sequence another rollup they also stake the the given rollups token um there's a few other groups like ethos that are also working on a skill sticking approach but with that approach you actually have biged in economic incentives because if I'm a rollup um I I actually obliged and I interested in connecting to a shared sequencer because my token sells value cruel I'm still taking a token there's still buy pressure for the token on the Node um I don't have to worry about like the hardware requirements I don't need to worry about the user experience or the developer experience of running this sh sequencer developing group Orting that so let's say for example my gaming rollup um I want my token to have sticking value I want to be ethereum I

want realization I will stake my token part of the movement share sequencer not worried about the kind of development experience and still get the fees and bu pressure that I want um part of the tokenomics model but don't you worry that like by opting into that so that you get some fees and a little bit of buy pressure you're essentially like opening up your Waters to like the sharks of every other ecosystem and I'm talking specifically about me and me I think like because there obviously all the Bots kind of looking for like which uh chain has a more like return um I think valers can do cool stuff where maybe for certain nodes you sh you shut off sh dual staking um I think it gets tricky because no one has

explored how it may be related to share sequencers because there's not a signal live sh live in production um it does get tricky that's something that we're working on um I don't think I have a straight off answer for that yet yeah well I definitely encourage you to like go look like this is all espresso systems talks about and again they talk about it from the sequencer side which is like look at all this me you're going to get and I'm thinking like maximal extracted value like that sucks for the L2 and the people in the ecosystem and so again that's that's something that I really struggle with like in this like future that we're going into this world of 10,000 rollups is like the reason that we're creating rollups is to have a

sovereign space and like with shared sequencer are we taking out the sovereignty like we're we're bringing back all the worst Parts but without like with just like pretty minor benefits yeah I think like ultimately like optimism there'll probably only be like two three major chains so don't imagine the m at least for the short to midterm being that ridiculous um I think if you can imp have Mo modering built-in validor so we can shut down me Bots that could be interesting but um I'll have to take a look at that maybe something work think about very cool so um I think now is like a good time to Pivot to talking towards the future and like I'm so excited and like so proud of you it's

like just last week you announced this incredible race so first of all congratulations um any like good War Stories or like tips on like what it took to get there yeah I mean we started off the fundraising is pretty difficult because we had no brand name we were two college kids in a dorm room with like 50 bucks in a bank account um so like most VC's investors passed the first look because this was post FDX and um anything that wasn't bulletproof was a Flight Risk um so we got like a thousand no before fors which has like a 21 like a 20-y old kid turning 21 wasn't the most fun thing to do and obviously had a lot of mental issues um but I think like that kind of taught me a lot of a like how the market wants how do you fundraise how do you build uh momentum I

think that experience led to kind of our success because we failed so many times and stuck through it me and my co-founder a we built like a bond that is like a lifelong Bond now and then B we learn a lot of skills that showed grit today so even today like our team is pretty disciplined we're pretty tight in a team humbl down to P we were never like the phds um the Rockstar Facebook guys um we were just two Scrappy kids and the team that we simple was pretty Scrappy as well nice well again congratulations and um man that's a big round and like a very exciting thing so so like again congratulations um I I would love to talk uh like what what do you want to do with this money and like really what is the future of like movement M Labs look like in you know

the the one-year time frame sure but like really in the five and the 10e time frame yeah I think like the main number one use some is like Community Building um whether that's like we look at apack as the biggest marker for US um obviously move is pretty big in carea with the work appas is doing we're pretty close with opas team and plan on working with them pretty closely there um so that's expansion Korea sorry it's some background noise um one second be got now um yeah so we plan doing a lot of work in APAC region we're um bringing consumer apps and Gamers to Korea so I'm hiring a big APAC team we're also hiring cryptography team so to me for verification is very important how do you blow up prer smart contracts and put full methods into program programming um so we're hiring research team as well to

really look extion the sequence level discuss the me stuff that you're bringing up which is the Point um I probably need to do more homework on that um and I think it's generally like we want to empower Builder so we already have three products that close and raise rounds um which we've been helping with the cap table their um hosting events hackathons driving developer adoption um but I think we really want to make sure the funds that we raise are going back towards the community um so if you're a builder please reach out we have a lot of Grant programs and incentive programs um and the main kind of cap would kind of we're putting towards the next few months is towards the community very cool so I'd love to talk a a little bit about what it's like to build in APAC and um just like definitely cross

cultures um and so sorry I don't mean to presume but I think you're American or like at least you have um uh like raise money from America so can you talk a little bit about what your like the the big takeaways in terms of like cultural differences between like the two crypto markets the Western and the eastern and like what does it mean to like bet big in Asia like how do you make those bets like how is it different like talk to me about like when you say that movement Labs is going to go big in Asia what does that mean I mean we're Western team based in San Francisco um I've grew up in New Jersey New York and Nashville most of my life so never really um explor a lot of Asia but I think like especially in crypto where the states

isn't the most adoptive place of crypto and policies Asia is really blown up for it so Singapore Hong Kong Korea emerging markets that are really accepted crypto put great policy um Singapore is really pushing forward it um so we're seeing a lot of good usage um and driving from governments and on the consumer side um things like anime and uh consumer Avenues are much more crypto-friendly so the bestas example is like Escape Plan in Korea they're very Pro crypto it's the biggest kind of telom company in Korea and they have their own blockchain they have their own collectibles on chain their users actually want to own asset on chain because it's part of their culture um I don't want to speak for them because I'm not from their

Community but one thing that we're really focusing on is hiring the team that does so so um we just made a few key exciting hires we're excited announce um that know what to do in Korea Southeast AG Japan regions um know how to Rally users developers customers and even like Capital um I think Asia's kind of growing up to be like the capital hub for crypto in terms of native eth in terms of ABC um so when you're looking at how do you grow the tvl of a chain a lot of that capital is coming from Asian markets you know I um when I was uh in like undergrad I one of my summer internships I uh was a development intern for Riot games and I'll never forget I was talking to like my dad like knew about U Riot games and

they so they do League of Legends and they make like Untold amount of money by selling skins for the characters like you can't buy new powers or like can't become more powerful just the skins and it just blew his mind that like they're able to build this company for people buying nothing that's what you always say like they're buying nothing and I you know to me that was just like no they're not buying nothing it's just like we we live more of Our Lives online like every single day we live more and more of Our Lives online and it makes sense to me that like as we put our identity there we're willing to like spend money there um and for all the same stupid reasons that we spend it out here and I think that something that Asia is just like so far ahead of us on

is understanding that like this line between like the online world and the offline world is like really arbitrary and just a reflection of how new the technology was and like the fact that online didn't exist even 20 years a 30 years ago and so um yeah I I do hear you that there's just this like this ease of like getting people to understand digital property um that it's much easier in Asia and I guess like the other side of it too is it's not just like the culture right like there's more regulatory Frameworks like businesses are more willing to get involved and I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that piece like what's it like working

outside of the US and outside of the west where instead of like you know businesses looking at our place and actually running away in fear like that people are embracing this technology as like new capabilities and new things that we've never done before I mean what's it like on the B2B side building in Asia yeah I think like generally it's much more collaborative um and there's more application teams so the states is really good at infrastructure um obviously lot of VCS and kind have um leaders in the states with offices like New York and San Francisco um but it's not application Builders because the users aren't really in the states the users for crypto when it's consumer gaming um like even mobile games or like mainland China Korea um Japan these are

where like the crypto games like axi Infinity saw a lot of volume and even going onto a topic like like airdrop farming um for States like you fig like a $5,000 air drop it's like cool like maybe that's rent for one month and like Indonesia you just fed like your family for a year right so that $5,000 goes a long way so like people in like these parts of the world really love crypto um because they can fundament to make a living off of it um and like participating networks and governance all these things are very important to them um so I think for a B2B player it's like we see like the next way of apps like I personally think the biggest consumer app in crypto will come from Korea I think the biggest like users in whales are starting for in terms of

Asian markets um so we do B2B I think it's like part like building infrastructure probably in States like developer Talent obviously Stanford is one of the best users arms in the world that's probably going to stay the way for the next few years but the users and the cat Market is very important to have in Asia because that's where the buyers that's the users that's where the app Builders are um so the best of both the worlds is kind of how we approach it and then um like I think last thing before we got to cut this off just timing wise but um you talked a little bit about how you want to spend this money that you just raised on research and so my question for you is like what are the buckets of things that like you find super interesting uh in terms of

research like and and where are the opportunities that you see for movement to push this space forward whether that's in the move language in like blockchain L2 architecture in just like social paradigms like where when you say you want to spend on Research where is that I think our tagline is trying to make security sexy again um so you have like a lot of security groups like auditor um that have Pion security for the last decade or so but it's always been like a B2B thing it's always been after afterthoughts like yeah we're going to build this cool Tech and maybe we might secure it um and often times we don't and it gets hacked and we're like okay like crypto is so used to $50 million hack that's like oh it's still $50 million when in reality like if I told my parents like that my app got hack of

$50 million they would freak out and never use it again um so I think that's one of the biggest barriers to adoption in our industry it's like from from our Inner Circle these hacks her normal from an Outer Circle it's like we're not going to touch this thing until it gets it figured out um so we really want to position ourselves as leader in terms of infrastructure security um making security part of the ethos and building into the runtime um so the key main value property is for verification so how you build rules um build VMS and sequencers that are resilient to Hao attacks um so we're hiring a PO research division dedicated form verification um whether that's bulletproofing the EDM side of the virtu machine um for stack so we can disable re re and these other issues um what gets me excited is the

sequence L monitoring so I tweet a lot about this like everyone argues that sensorship is bad right uh we're trying to build sensorship resistance systems does a world where sensorship is actually good or what the sequence here that can moniter meols and stop hacker attacks from actually hoening so if you have a bad op code or overflow or some kind of issue with the mol um you can essentially monitor this transaction be like this transaction is bad let's make sure it doesn't get executed um if if your or book rollup you can geoblock certain kind of users um who are portrayed by actors um and intentionally do that so there's actually a world where um you can turn on sship within sequencer um so if you're launching your custom rollup you can have built-in security from a VM level as well as sequencer level um so yeah short answer

is we want to make security sexy again yeah no and and that I love make security sexy again that's very good um but like can so when you talk about um a lot of verification in my head like in my echo chamber what that means is a lot about um ZK technology and I'm wondering does like how much when you're building uh movement Labs like how much are you touching ZK how much do you understand that to be a part of like the stack that you're building and like basically the stack of uh blockchains in the future yeah so I think like the end game is eventually have good fully ZK mve VM I think current proving costs are pretty high even if it's a set for transaction it's pretty problematic for us um so

don't think infrastructure is ready for fully um paralyzing Next Generation Z Rich machine um so the way you're using ZK is a ZK far proofs as part of the rups um we're not building inhouse we're partnering with u ZK providers that have already spent a lot of research into it um so I think the short-term zkr proofs but eventually kind of once we have a stable environment looking to migrate to a validity proof Network um with their own prooved Marketplace and whatnot I well I guess like taking a step back like I my question for you is when you're talking about security research is that um about cryptography and about like not even the the verification on mainnet of like the the um transactions that happen on the L2 like the the fraud proof Paradigm but

I'm talking about just within the movm itself when you're talking about like increasing security is that a story of cryptography and a story of like creating better tools that provide mathematical guarantees or is that more about systems architecture and building like safe uh paths and like the right kinds of checks but it's really much more of like an analog and a non- cryptographical uh branch of research I think it starts off in this the lad where it's like you're just bringing rules to environment so if I'm a random developer um for example like managing in overflows there's no account checks in the evm bringing those account checks the sequence level and the execution level um so it's like if I am deploying fraudulent code or like code that I

missed up on um there's account checks and system checks into runtime that can run those slides not deploy bad code but I think long term it is like how do we build the best decentralized network with our custom provs um custom cryptography so if I'm deploying smart contracts maybe it's like we're um able to encrypt it have some privacy in it um but I don't think that's the short-term Focus for us um I think there's other teams that are better suited for that and we look to partner with them um but I think that's more a long-term thing with us awesome man well I really appreciate it and um I'm really excited for the future that movement is going to build I think you're so right to like just look at the state of blockchain and realize like ethereum is like something

special and something precious and it also like totally sucks to actually use and build on and I do think the right way to to like push blockchain forward is not to launch another L1 like if if we're all we care about is Computing like why are we bothering with any of this like let's just go build like financial apps on AWS and call it a day like the the special thing we have here is the shared space and the question for Builders is how do you improve the shared space and not like how do you just burn it down and start over and hope that everyone decides that your space is the shared space so could not be more aligned with what you're doing and like how you're getting there and uh man just thank you for for sharing it with us thanks so much man thanks for

having me of course before I let you go can you share with the audience just where they can find you where they can find movement labs and we talked so much about how like you guys have really embraced the importance of um ecosystem support and just like Vibes and like the the ecosystem so can you um tell the audience where they can find you where they can find movement and like if they want to get involved like how should they get started yeah Twitter's boom Labs XYZ there's a link tree um in the handle that has our Discord um we're pretty active in Discord have a lot of fun memes and Community initiatives in Discord it's pretty active um and then me personally it's rushim man R Us Shi m c on Twitter feel free to DM me um I'm

chronically online chronically bull posting and Sh posting so um feele DM me there um I think journalist like we are a team that wants be reached out to as well as we'll reach out to you um so if you have any cool ideas um go here ping me ping on the team um we're all yours awesome well rushi thank you so much I'm so excited for you I can't wait to see like this this uh from last week on is like the era of movement labs and I can't wait to see like what comes from that so congratulations good luck and uh have a good rest of your day thanks so much thanks having me bye