Movement Lab's Token Launch & Ecosystem Strategy | Rushi Manche

Transcript

if the token goes wrong you'll have a thousand I hate you comments and you should go to death and people will dox my address and send God knows what to my address or the token goes well you'll be king Caesar and people will like period you right so there's really no in between I like contractors Consultants who actually were helpful in this whole process there's no contractors or Consultants that know anything about this process okay that's that's what I figured but because it changes every month what worked last month doesn't work today what works for me doesn't work for the next per because like the markets change right when the market tanks 50% you're knocking the same deal you got six months ago scale is the blockchain that is Simply Built different other L1 networks have costly transaction fees clunky user experiences and lack true

adoption in Ai and onchain gaming explore the gas-free ecosystem at scale. space ecosystem and follow their Journey on X at scale Network that is scale with a K hit the link in the show notes to get started hey everyone Jason here wanted to talk about something that's been on my mind a lot recently if we should not be just recreating the trafi industry that's why I'm excited to share with you that today's sponsor magic Eden is getting into token trading and their vision is to become onchain binance and then much more as the entire world moves onchain stay up to date with magic Eden's journey by giving them a follow on X at Magic Eden are you a project

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it all right what's up everybody we got rousi for movement Labs big week for for rousi what's up fellas what's up guys um I think we rushi could you uh can can we get the the whole thing out of the way of the whole eyebrow situation going on on on on X like can you just turn around for for everyone how do we yeah give us the side by side look is this side by side look we want to confirm it's a real rushi on this pod I don't know man I'm having doubts these days yeah no I just gained weight so like that picture that was from two years ago I was in college and I was eating like dorm food so naturally I was like nutrient deprived and also like like obviously wasn't launching a token and then like obviously like two years later I'm going

get fatter I probably put on like 25 pounds and then it was like oh it's not the real like I can't I can't believe like it was pretty funny because it was mostly Saar but people like generally hit me up noticed like yo did you get like some something done like are you okay like people were checking in on me which is really sweet but also like guys I didn't get like it was 25 pounds I guess it was like that much but anyway 25 pounds of muscle um no it's fat bro it's fat it's fat but I grew out the stash uh I grew out the mullet so I'm like I'm I'm transforming why why is why is the mullet so with jenzi these days RI can you give us a little walk through of this it's like I think it's like like it starts with Australians I think

Australia was like the main mullet stash combo and then like I I actually don't know where it originated from it just like it's a Williamsburg thing as well like I feel like a bunch of like the New Yorkers Williamsburg all have like the mold stash combos well I'm gonna call you rushi Maverick now from wanted to have you guys on to talk about there's a lot that obviously went on with movement launching maybe we can take this opportunity we'll do the regular round out but just um get us up to speed on what's going on movement I mean that there was a big big big stuff happening this week yeah I mean I can kick it off uh obviously had a token launch which was probably one of the most stressful times of My Life um I

everything came kind of last minute and um honestly did not expect what happened to happen I think I'd be a fool to say like oh I was expecting it to all go happily and uh the reactions to occur but I think like directionally um I can go into kind of token watch strategy and kind of uh what My Philosophy was but usually there's three main categories you have the airdrop you can't mess it up you have like sentiment which is public and private sentiment that you can't mess up and then you just have like uh e system and having that lined up day Zero which is like exchanges Mark makers protocols live Day Zero so um I think most launches usually tend to one or two of those um and I think like I

mean we don't know how it plays out for the next few weeks and I don't want to knock on the wood but I think we kind of nailed um all three of the circuits um which I would say 70% luck um and 30% skill um but yeah so I mean look every the since Trump got elected um a lot of teams have now you know and given where the market is have thought about you know hey TG let's let's go I mean the market seems to be very receptive what's going through your mind you mentioned it's probably one of the most stressful times like walk us through maybe as much as you could into the inner psychology of like what happened there what was a you know because a lot a lot of people that

might be listening here including maybe you Dino as well like are thinking about a TG or token launch um just tell us more about that yeah I mean like directionally anytime tokens go up markets go up it's a better time time to launch tokens um there's more liquidity in the markets um exchangers are more willing to open up the G Gates U there's more buyers generally participants um from a trump point of view I think regulatory environment improves a lot um like even our general councils were like yeah like the the rules and figments that we were leading on for the last six months maybe don't apply today and we're able to be more risk on um obviously like we still have the foundation structures and most us companies are

still going to approach that but I do think like it's pretty interesting like I'm hearing like incorporations like Wyoming happening um I think like there's a lot more I mean like coinbase itself right there's like listing a lot more like memes recently um and I actually am pretty bullish coinbase as exchange leading up to this because there's a lot of organic volume there's a lot of institutional volume when you look at like even Sweet Success right like you had the vanac ETFs um and like etps and a lot of these are custody through coinbase custody uh are done through a coinbase exchange so we're seeing a lot of that with Trump coming to office and people buying more crypto and neverly that capital is now coming

through institutions that black rocks the Vex of the world and they're going through US base exchanges so um me and Y talked about this like at permissionless actually um I think that it's it's pretty it's a great time the American crypto company uh rushi can you just take us way more behind the scenes like what what actually was happening like how crazy is it to launch a token you said it was one of the you know most stressful or toughest I think work experiences of your life like take take us actually behind the scenes like what happens for you that we don't see as the public where do I start um let me start with the team right so like obviously when you're building to together team everyone looks to the founders kind of as leadership um and kind of direction

right so launching a token is a lot of variables usually because you don't really know anything until often times few hours before TG U whether that's with exchanges whether it's the market makers whether that's the market conditions there's a lot of variables I think it's really different than like traditional stock companies like I feel like actually under IP company but I feel like there's a lot more regulatory um Clarity there like you'll have your uh announcement and kind of lock in date months before sometimes years before um actually I actually don't know what I'm talking about in terms of IPOs but I feel like there's a lot more Clarity in terms of regular stock companies while crypto company it's like you can find out what uh exchange you're launching on right before TG and don't really have

much Clarity so from like um from our point of view I think the team was it was scrambling for the last like four weeks because um a you're trying to line up all your financial Capital your market makers and kind of that stuff you're trying to rally on your eastem teams and get them on timelines you have investors asking like when token when token when token you have commun members asking when token when token um I think for like movement like people didn't really know we were launching a token and until like right up two like two or three weeks before when we dropped the tokenomics um I think we approach strategy a little bit differently um because we kind have a different architecture and kind of General different principles um but I think like

going specifics like the team morale was something that I didn't expect like um obviously like there's a lot of stress for the first last few weeks so people were like working non-stop pretty much the entire team um and there's a lot of burnout I would say that I didn't expect to happen which is pretty natural right you go through a very stressful time and there it's a lot of inner Conflict Management external conflict management um thankfully like Cooper kind of did a really good job with that he's my co-founder but uh that's something I didn't expect um and then in terms of like kind of launch plans like I I would actually text Santi about this all the time right there's a lot of deals that go out in the background and as a Founder it's very difficult to make decisions because you only get one shot

at this right it's not like oh you raise a series a you have like three different investors you you have like five weeks to decide and you have like oh you can do another round if you mess up right if you mess up your toky launch your company screw um and that's kind of how it's always historically went so when you have like the gun to your head um and fundamentally you're the face of the company right so if the token goes wrong you'll have a thousand I hate you comments and you should go to death and people will dox my address and send God knows what to my address or the token goes well you'll be her like you'll be king Caesar and people will like period right so there's really no in between well rushi I mean I think on that point like it's actually pretty pretty

difficult and I sympathize with the founders because if things go very well I don't think you get nearly enough credit it's sort of like obviously like we expected this you know we there's sort of this sentiment in the community where it's like if there's more downside uh because if things go south like they only blame you and the team um but if things go well it's sort of like like yeah like obviously like you know they don't give you nearly enough credit and I I I bet it's so stressful I mean I've had the privilege of just seeing the evolution of how much you've you know how much you've grown the ecosystem and it it's been you know years and maybe just give us for the listeners that don't have that appreciation like this

has been a long like this has been a long journey I think of you as one of the founders that I've just the amount of hustle like constantly is just it's just Relentless but like you get to a point of like TG and people just see that like tip of the iceberg kind of thing yeah but you know obviously timing is important obviously market conditions are important but if you take a long-term view like a lot of this has been cooking for years so like from your standpoint like just just give listeners kind of more perspective on the whole evolution of what how you got to you know um to Main and like TG I guess yeah I mean so like we start like our origin story was kind of bad we started like two I think two years now ago um we were

just two college kids like L the brokest kids possible um like this is a funny story like Cooper sold his car I think two months ago two months into the company because we couldn't afford Engineers um and that's kind of in I say because it was Lally trenches uh we were in the dorm room as like our office um but yeah I think like we were like we were never going to like I always say we're never going to be the smartest technologist we were never going to be like the black rock xbcg and X McKenzie like fancy resume um but I think like what we always understood was uh Community system because ultimately a chain is only successful or platforms only successful if you have builders that are loyal to you and I think I always point to toally in 21 um to this where

obviously sanao was doing really well um and then 22 23 Soul crashed but to's well lessness never changed um he was always in the trench of the builders like you saw him like still talking about product still talking with jeto still talking with Cino still talking with these PL protocols um and the the strategy was still there you still had the multi coin doubling down you still had Al or after FTX obviously but you still had the major market makers um saying here's why Souls a thesis um and I think like that kind of inspires me I very like totally is a role model to me in that like the like Salon is successful because you have pretty much now all of like MIM coin trading volume on salana you have all the biggest

Builders choosing Soul um as kind of the platform built on top of and that's kind of what left to mind for salana so we understood that principle two years ago because we were early move Builders we knew uh kind of what the E system was like and we we wanted to like an opportunity for the Community First the E First Chain um that brings a move language um and yeah it's been a journey since then I think when we first started off we had 100 no before our first VCS um and we were going to give up so many times um but obviously that's like a corny story that can get into but I think like since then we've evolved a lot um there's a lot of like criticism that comes with that like people still look to me and they're like oh he's

young he's gonna like he's just GNA scan like even like the move Mansion thing like people thought I genuinely bought a mansion because like I watch token like dude like it's physically impossible for me to move my paperwork that much and I'm like literally in my William B apartment that's not mention at all I saw I saw something around like yeah there's like rats in the apartment kind of yeah there's a rat it's a rat trap on the ground do you think being a young founder is there's this like new wave of Founders that would say like you and like Dino and other guys like would you say being a young founder has been a advantage or disadvantage yeah so I think in terms of being a young founder is there few benefits right like you touch on like AA energy that's only possible because like

I I don't have wife and kids I don't have like like a mortgage to worry about it's like there's a lot there's a lot of benefits in that like physical energy mental energy I can handle a lot more than if I was like 20 years older but I do think there's obviously a lot of downsides like obviously on CT people tend to like get jealous as say it's like oh this like kid made money like he's gonna be a scammer and like Griff the entire thing right um which like better for like we've seen stories of the happening so I kind of get where they come from but there's a generally a lack of credibility um that's it's uphill battle uh that comes with being a young founder and I think like over time like that stuff waves around as you prove yourself and um kind of get more

validation from your PE um but that's what we struggled off when we started off right everyone thought like oh these are just two idiot kids like especially in the bare markets um but I think as success comes and as you prove yourself there's still G to be haters obviously there still gonna be people that think like you're it for the wrong motives so you really for the wrong intentions well ultimately like that's every young founder um like zck got this when you made Facebook I'm sureal got it when he talking ethereum but um I do think Young Founders are neck good for the industry Richie can you take me into some of the other like backdoor dealings of these tokens that I think just like you know people I'm I'm overly curious about them I know Santi was advising you a lot on this stuff so like Santi probably comes

the second nature to you but I mean here here here's one thing like the exchanges like I saw you guys listed on you guys got a lot of really good listings like bid hum and upbit and binance and bitg no KX like buy bit wobe all all that I mean you guys are listed on all the exchanges like what actually goes into those yeah I mean the specifics are probably difficult to put on uh paper but um generally it's like you're trying to align different markets so there's coinbase which is more for like the US markets there's Asia exchanges that U have more Asian volume obviously of Korea I think the most amount of volume that's happening moving right now is up it um generally that we see that especially after launch um again like

you can't really go into specifics here because a lot of this taboo which is unfortunate truth like I think like New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ have more clear regulatory guidelines and clear guidelines for how to approach that well the The Exchange game is more of a dance um it's about who you know and kind of um like the The Narrative I'll focus more on like um how to approach it I think like first thing you have to realize that it's Exchange business is a business the number one volume number one kind of Guiding Light for these exchanges is net new user sale platform so um something like poly Market um I don't know when the token plan is there but that would neverly bring a lot more users to exchange platform platforms because poly Market is a breakout crypto

app people any exchange that will list poly Market would probably attract uh users that have never touched crypto before um and then if you look at like the 50th evml 2 you're probably not attracting that much net new users which actually you think is leading to kind of decrease in infrastructure listings it's much more difficult to do that but um I think again the number one goal for these exchanges is more users more volume um so when you're kind of Designing a company and if your goal is to launch a token you you the number one question you should be asking yourself is how do I bring more volume to exchanges and what's my narrative there and I think for us it was like we got again lucky right timing like move us picking up after since we were at

all-time highs um SW now is four and a half cents um so like this move narrative was especially hot right um and then kind of like the the proxy is on comparisons right so what even Traders do is like okay if this token is trading at x amount of valuation and this token is trading x amount of valuation this is what this upcoming token should do um and again like I don't think I agree with the principles always and um I wish there was a better kind of free market but that's how it works especially in a lot of these liquid fund training groups so like I think from movement was like oh sweet trading this app trading this here's this shiny new coin that could potentially trade like this and brings x amount of users um and I think it actually worked out and people have

started doing that whereas like other other projects don't really have the comparison so it's more difficult for them to get on these platforms um so yeah I think it it comes to a lot on like who you know and luck um as well as your general strategy I'd like to maybe just double click a little bit on the exchanges and like when you talk to them like is it uh you know they they obviously carry a lot of weight I think but there's also market makers how do you from a maybe general advice but like how do you in that position like um negotiate with them or you know get Fair terms and by the way like you could also

argue that in traditional markets like lead Underwriters the JP Morgan Goldman whoever's doing your IPO yeah like you go back in there like Facebook as an example was terribly mispriced Y and these people do it for a living and they'll tell Facebook hey we're GNA the range is like 18 to 20 bucks and they'll go out to the market they'll like you know talk to Big institutions who's going to Anchor the IPO and then all of a sudden the stock Pops from 18 to like 60 and and I'm sure someone at Facebook calls JP Morgan GL and says guys what the [ __ ] we just have so much value on the table but like a lot of it's like really hard to predict even in traditional more robust markets you would think have better price covery but

it's always like a bit of a bit of a magic the black box that goes behind it um what uh what does that process look like from on the crypto side like is there some sort of formula that they apply the exchanges is there some sort of metric or percentage of tokens that they need or they you know what is it that they look for the most and from your standpoint point it you guys are trying to get me in trouble aren't you um I'm not trying no and by the way don't feel I'm not asking for specifics but I do think that like like I'm just going to put like different examples hyper liquid like maybe give two like zero interactions with

exchanges probably and then you have squirrel which you know gave an what feels like a lot of value to The Exchange and there's everything in the middle I'm just kind of curious what goes into that I think information is public I think it was say 2% something like that um okay I think look so there's a lot of different ways that the the percentages are calculated first of all it's on um how much volume and kind of your total Tam here right so like some of this if you're like you do a smaller protocol like your respected FTV is like 200 to 500 million um the small exchanges will try to get a cash out of you or something like that is what I've usually heard of um and the bigger exchanges won't really bother um

usually like the larger scale launches that scale from like two to potentially 20 billion FTV um then there's like this concept of okay you want to get um exchanges the value in terms of a obviously trading volume um expected ftvs and stuff like that but then B um how much can they um give to the users per se um there's there's various negotiation process that happened through there so like usually like you'll approach and then you'll go back and forth and then to get to the Final Destination and the final agreement there'll usually be like dozens of conversations so it's just a negotiation process like I would say any other platform um I do think there's a lot of different variables because there's like

launch pools there's like direct listings there's like pre-markets there's like um I think we had like this airdrop thing that was technically the classification for it but um it is a tricky battle I say and there's any I think okay I'll take a step back anyone promise that going be Exchange consultant or their like working be advisor run away run I I can't tell you okay this is actually a good point I can't tell you how many times it's been approached by these uh advisers that will get you listed and advise you they'll take five or eight bips every Supply um and they'll guide you through the process they don't know anything no one knows anything it's it's all a black box um anything they know anything

they're probably going to jail yeah thank thank you thank you for saying that um and any investor that claims to be able to do that is also full of [ __ ] so just were there were there any outside folks who were helpful like you know you have your investors like Santi it sounds like was actually quite helpful um but I don't think it was to be honest okay well anyways were were there any outside folks that you hired any like contractors Consultants who actually were helpful in this whole process there's no contractors or Consultants that know anything about this process okay that's that's what I figured but because it changes every month what worked last month doesn't work today what works for me doesn't work for the next person because like the markets change right when the market tanks 50% you're knocking the same deal

you got six months ago so like there's like this so you have like these advisors that do like oh exchange go to market and then Market making stuff there that's like you talk any Market maker they hate those groups that do that because they usually squeeze the market try um so I guess we can go through that process as the next topic because the biggest issue is like okay you have exchanges lined up but how are you going to set up like the market makers and stuff so you have your like there's two main groups I won't name drop but I think most viewers who are familiar with it know um they will essentially do auction so they'll say okay we have 50 market makers and we're going to do auction for f six Market making uh spots and whoever bids the lowest amount um will get access to this

protocols uh tokens uh Market making the issue that you run into that in the platform and why it's historically underperformed I would say in most cases unless it's like a$2 billion protocol which it doesn't really matter is that if you squeeze every every Market maker dry they have no incentive to actually perform so what they do is they'll put a contract and say okay whoever bids the lowest amount for his contract wins so then you get a bunch of these like awful market makers that obviously trying to make 100 Grand per month basically um and then they actually are not performing any kind of volume they're radically underperforming there's no monitoring on them at at all um and then on top of these these providers and the advisor be like look we'll help you navigate exchanges and talk to the bigger exchanges and figure out negotiations the issue is that they

have no knowledge about anything that goes on and often times they're frowned upon so if you're a viewer and you're listening to this and you're getting approached by these people run away um in terms of a council I would say like there are like investors that provide advice right because santi's seen like seen many launches I've come to him for advice actually before launch I was like y here's the current situation here's the current deals we have what do you think um but ultimately Santi doesn't know what's going on like he doesn't like I I doubt he has launched token recently um but even like some like I think ww has been really helpful for me she's like I call her my mom she calls me fat a lot and then also says really helpful words um but she kind of gets especially Asian markets and Lawn

strategies but even her she doesn't she can't GH speak like she doesn't know how the exchanges go conversations go because it is a black box and if anyone was to actually get in the box that's insider trading um so again like run away from any of these provid but I would say there are good investors that kind of know a thing or two and um there are like investors that will just push you launch a token and be Predator so you can dump in six months um but I think like generally like long-term investors um have seen token launches have seen what works and what doesn't work um and I would try to get those in your corner um rushi when you think about um a lot of times in this process people focus on penetrating and being active in

certain markets like hey let's let's focus on Korea let's focus on the you know on um you know Chinese market or uh you know some other Market um did that compute into your thinking as types of exchanges that you prioritized versus not yeah I mean 100% I mean if I pull up the movement chart I think the the biggest volume is still up today um yeah like I mean we all know Creo markets um have the most amount of volume like up B bit th are phenomenal exchanges and great people over there but uh it's just it's just different uh kind of Marcus there right so I think y it pulled up um like it's just ridiculous how much the volume is there today um I think when we first launched it was $3 billion doll in volume for the first 24 hours um I think

at one point when we launched we were the number one token on upit um as well as just like RI why why is that it it just like right timing I think the move narrative was good um but like why is the mo why is that narrative is so is that maybe like because after is so hot in somewhere like Korea then you know they're kind of chasing the move narrative like is that is that kind of how you think about it yeah I think like generally like move is pretty big in Korea um like we had abdas as a big participant we hadu as a big participant um and generally they look for like the third incumbent there um I think just generally like um the infrastructure narrative still makes a lot of sense uh

and we've also done a lot of work so like for example we co-sponsored KBW it was us andu as the main child sponsor so like we have a lot of on the ground troops um in Korea that have been kind of working but like even like six seven months ago think we were like oh Korea is a top priority for us um and then we want to really make sure that we're getting into retail communities there um so we have a bunch of like Korean groups that do like local PR and local uh like marketing there but also like we dropped a lot of resources to be a t sponsor for qbw yeah how would you for for people that you know might not be they should go the pot that we recorded I think it was like almost a year ago or you know

earlier this year but how would you describe movement in one or two sentences movement is a e ethereum scaling solution that leverages the move Rich machine um I think our thesis is move and evm on eth U we love eth as ass class we believe it's a great source of liquidity um we believe in the move language and move VM and move prover um and I think like the rise of modularity has introduced ability to mix and match so when I built the first deck in apos uh like I think abdas is a phenomenal Tech stack and phenomenal L1 um but the biggest issue that ran into there was um okay like how do you get liquidity to

this thing um and with l2s the whole concept was uh bringing ethereum Ethel One Security U and eth's ask class natively to Def apps and defi E Systems um and I think like we took this hybrid approach we like okay we believe in high performance execution environments um I think if Dino was here we talked about like fluent and wasm based expensiv um but we still believe in ethereum is ass class um and actually our architectures evolved a lot since then like we rolled at this like Fast Finale post confirmation layer which people call a side chain I'm like okay we can get into that narrative but um ultimately like what looks today is um like scaling ethereum through alternative role Frameworks alternative VMS and I think that's the direction that's more

fruitful um we saw like honestly too many e2s where there isn't much product differentiation um and most of these token launchers are radically under performed I think that's something that hyper liquid also taught right it's like a unique product a unique Community leads to good performance um while like you look at most evl 2s today Community kind of got [ __ ] over um and then just like the product wasn't uniquely different to create a narrative so there wasn't enough like retail interest in it whereas something like move obviously was it's there's only three main move blockchains on the market um it's still relatively young still feels like Sal in 2021 people are still looking for the next SPM um and I think that's driven a lot of interest Moving System yeah there's certainly been like

a lot a lot of developments on the move like whether you look at soie or apas um like institutional adoption like stable coins on coming on of these networks the growth has been pretty remarkable over the last like six seven months um from your standpoint as someone who I you know is like a lead evangelist remove like what are what have been some of the what have been some of the more um like interesting things that you've uh tracked or considered to be like really turning points in like increasing awareness and interest in in move uh as a language but also in move based chains yeah so I think every metric in crypto is now gameable like wallets we know

gameable transactions we know gameable um tvl used to be cool until the tvl points program started so now tvl can be bought like anyone can get a billion dollar in tvl in three months so I think the only left metric that isn't gameable is e a fundraised ecosystem projects where um private Venture capitalists public Venture capitalists are investing and supporting exem projects um and I think like that's been kind of my Northstar because ultimately if you have a crew a set of let's say 20 projects that have all rais private Venture that have four years Runway they're going to be there when the token takes 90% they're going to be there when uh a major exchange collapses there's a b big deeg right um

which again going back to salana which is starting the Playbook right in 2021 um salana ripped FTX collapsed you still had the 20 plus projects that were deps in the bare Market that Santi and you guys probably invested in um that were really high conviction salana and then when salana came back up those guys like Jupiter is at n billion um Jos like fre billion as well like these guys have built their own teams built their own developers and I think that's how you actually grow E system community so I think for mood developing system like one thing that were're noticing is like he developer counts like first first year it was three and a half percent six months ago 7 and a half% of monthly active developers now we're at 99.7% of monthly active developers or move devs

and next year we'll hit 14.2% so the mood developer growth rate is outpaced svm um mostly because you now have uh three 10 plus billion dollar chains that um have done phenomenal in terms of uh user acquisition and obviously launching flexible products but B I would say like people actually get the technology people get like rust based programming is powerful people get that you can build highly secure and High performant apps to move um and honestly people love the language um so we' noticing that there's more developers coming in from like JavaScript we to backgrounds um and then these teams are getting funded so for moving e system particularly there is more Venture back teams um e system than the labs company itself as of today um

obviously that will change over the coming months but um I think that's been a personal priority and accomplishment of mine RI who do you think um I think the AL alt VM narrative makes a lot of sense it's like I mean my one liner for movement when people ask me about it is like you're letting developers build move move is a good language you're letting developers build and move but basically settle back to uh to ethereum where like there's a lot of liquidity and Dev tools and all that kind of stuff but there's all these alt VMS it's like eclipse and movement and fluent and miden and cardassi and Fuel and I'm sure the Anisha I don't know if all these fit into the same bucket Catalyst like there's all these things how do how many winners do you think there will be in

this category I think STI said this like a year ago like the maer expansion was like this unraveling of different eem projects da different sequencers execution environments and then you have consolidation which is I think we're getting the consolidation era right now actually I think a year ago when the ma expansion happened and when s sent this it was like you had everyone their mom raising like a new round for like the share sequencer or like the new DA layer and there's like eight da layers that were funded and there's like like 20 execution environments and like yeah I think that made sense for like the unraveling and now people are like oh wait infrastructure is rather fatigued to a degree people want apps people want um like public launches Fair launches people want like actual products so now

we're in consolidation and the consolidation comes down to uh whoever's best community because ultimately your community is your user base and any chain or product that screws over the community fundamentally dies we've seen that with recent launches um and then B it's on E system where it doesn't matter if you people a chain this five billion chains have been launched it matters on when you get the next p Market when you get the next uh like gaming app that actually with the gonzilla right um or the Off the Grid so I think now we're entering the consolidation era where there will only be I think like everything happens in Paris so you had like optimism marrum you had Soul evax you had aptis andu I think for like this maer incumbent

there'll be another pair um hopefully were one of the pairs but obviously it's too early to say um yeah I think even for da you like celesa I da right so um usually this these things happen in Paris um so for the execution environment instead for the VMS that would probably be my bet where there's probably two ex novel all VM execution environments that win um yeah yeah yeah I I agree with that are you competing uh for ethereum's existing user base or like arbitrum and optimism's user base or move and sui Aptos and su's user base I mean that's the thing about crypto right everything's competitive with each other into like it's ultimately a mind share game and attention game so I could say here and be like I'm competitive be chain but in reality means smoking your

best friends right um so like that's I I tend to not look at that lens because if I'm competing for 15,000 Developers I as like entrepreneur is not really accomplishing anything like my favor favorite analogy I say is more developers of Facebook today than all of crypto um so like a when people tell me like oh evm is one I'm like one what that's that's a great line yeah that's a great line and then B I'm just like okay like we're still so early to the point of like it doesn't make sense for me to like try to get 10 developers from like scroll or 10 developers from like optimism right a it's like tvl is a usually predatory metric and that like if I put a points program up tomorrow probably get a billion tvl in a month um so like I'm not in this game for like

tvl for token go up game it's more about like okay how do you get like the next poly Market and drive the adoption like polygon POS no one talks about it today but it drives so much volume because you have poly Market on it and I would argue the polygon POS is doing more success for the crypto industry than majority of evl 2s have launched and even like Al L ones so like the narrative often doesn't correlate with kind of sentiment but that's different story but yeah I think like the focus and number one Northstar for the the winning apps or the winning systems is successful apps like salana is winning because they have pump because they have like you have all Deacon products basically choosing to build on salana and hopefully movement will be kind of then come on for the

next few months scale is the blockchain that is Simply Built different let's face it other L1 networks have costly transaction fees that increas as the network gets busier scale has solved this problem with a gas-free scalable infrastructure where users never pay gas fees scale was awarded the most active gaming chain in 20123 by coin Gecko and host five of the top 25 games on dap radar you should definitely check out scale I was using it the other day it really is incredible to use that's scale spelled with a K hit the link in the show notes or head on over to scale dospace ecosystem to get started today hey everyone Jason here I wanted to take

a second to break down why Magic getting into token trading their team is extremely concerned that crypto is still Consolidated in the hands of a few centralized exchanges who act as Gatekeepers ultimately recreating the trafi space they believe that crypto is still missing an onchain binance and their aim is to move trading completely on chain fully decentralized they've done $6 billion dollar in nft volume in the last 3 years and have had more than 1.4 million users visit their platform in the past year making them the number one nft platform in the market today they are the ones that can do it stay up to date with magic Eden's journey by giving them a follow on X at Magic Eden are you a project founder

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out their latest wallets I I think we um I definitely agree with uh that um idea a lot of what I've been thinking about lately is like there's a great a6c uh blog post I think a year like a sorry a month ago or two and they're trying to like assess how many like real users are in crypto and I think they come to a metric of like anywhere from like uh 30 to 60 million or 30 to 40 million active users and it's it's like a great post we can link it and I looked at that and I said gosh like it's it's a it's not a lot um and of course like there's like I think it's somewhere

between 177% of you look at like all active users or like what crypto.com discloses as like 200 million users the reality is is it's vastly less than that and to your point on poly market like I just think as an industry like we have kind of four years to really get our [ __ ] together and really drive like non-speculative use cases and maybe that's deep in likely deep in um and like yeah stable coins are great but like for what like the non-speculative use cases of a stable coin payments um and and of course it it has to do with a very good developer experience you know that's that was the us having you and Dino on because I do think it starts there right like you know there's more developers that likely are going to be

on boarded through and learn about move it likely is easier than solidity um and maybe that a lot of that started with like Libra and that Consortium and getting people interested and like I would think that I'd be curious to understand from your standpoint if you if you are seeing what type of developers are coming to the to build on on on movement is that you know projects that exist in other chains that appreciate the benefits of movement or is it also like net new that are coming from you know web to that are saying hey gosh like this is actually a language that I understand uh that is really secure and that I can get on board with like

deploying on chain without feeling that I'm going to get hacked and like you know with solidity it's actually you know a problem right and with move it's really not and so yeah I'm kind of curious like how two two parts of the question one is when you talk about ecosystem system how much of it is like what are you seeing on the developer side and what are you seeing then on on like applications and then users um to drive like the non-speculative um adoption so I'll start with the application side I think like the main like the main era that I want to enter now and I think is we're entering is like the next Pinterest variation or the next Snapchat variation built a crypto um and we've been saying this for a

while like even like diesel was talking about this back in the day uh before stuff happen but uh I think we're the point where infrastructure is performant enough you not really borrow by customizations you want your own op chain go to call D conduit launch your own chain if you want like a different day layer you can do that if you want like different l1s you can do that you have all the infrastructure in the world uh and now it's a question of okay what does the utilization mean and I think where we get to is like when we're building Pinterest when we're building Uber right now there's no incentivization for users there's no baked Cen rization models um what crypto enables you to do is essentially when you build content or when you create uh something in the world right now you can

own the asset and it's always been like reite own right own the asset and get rewarded for that um and I think like there's early ideas for this that you had like the the the music I forgot what it's called but there's like this music to earn back in the day and then you had teleport which is like this Uber to earn um and I think those were too early because a America wasn't ready for it and I mean I'm American so I'm going to say a lot of these things but I think it's going to start from America where we have Snapchat Pinterest these things being built on crypto rails starting in Silicon Valley probably or New York City one of these hubs uh where they look at crypto as a way to monetize their likeliness and then distribute rewards um on a discrete Ledger um and I think

this is how it's always started like you had like web 2 when you had like original Hardware being built overseas But ultimately the software boom happened in Silicon Valley and happened in the states and now the regulations in town now we have new regime with Trump um and now that you know we'll have a lot more Forward Thinking for institutions and platform providers like stripe just required bridge right now you have those apis a lot more accessible so now that developer experience a from infrastructure level is 10x better but now from like a sentiment point of view is now cool you go to Berkeley I I was talking to someone yesterday like Cal like Berkeley blockchain Club the Berkeley blockchain Club is like doubled in like student population is now one of the top clubs at Berkeley and most of the s now coming from like the Berkeley selers are

thinking hey how do I get crypto involved here obviously that means that obviously Bitcoin being an alltime high helps but it's also like look I can potentially launch a token um and get obviously liquidity much past it but in terms of like go to market I can incentivize my users much quicker than going public on 10 to 15 years um so I think this ties into different models that s working on private Equity side where you have um kind of web two companies right now that don't really per se have ability to IPO um Venture in web 2 is underperforming anything a web two and Venture Web Two Venture is getting their ass kicked um so now you have like this these really promising web two companies that now see crypto as a ability to distribute value but B

ability to incentivize their users so I think there's going to be this unlocking point where you have a existing web two companies that will go through private Equity or grow through crypto Consultants to launch more tokens like I do think there will be web 2 companies that have been blocked by iOS that now will turn to tokens like we can me them about Enon but maybe that's like the direction right and now you and then you have new builders that that previously didn't look at looked at crypto as a scam basically but now you have stripe apis for bridge uh stable coins which now enables you to payments U that stuff didn't exist four years ago when people were talking about music to earn and Uber to earn um so I'm looking for the next Pinterest on crypto yeah I think I think University clubs have always been

really um really important and have kind of flourished um and yeah I mean there's a lot of uh it's not just like launching a token I think like there there there could be a lot of variations where companies use tokens I mean I guess you you use a token to acquire users or you use an NF by the way it could be an nft this the simple hack is like most most b2c companies do not understand or have a direct relationship with our customer like put a QR code in the store when when someone sees a QR code they're going to scan they get it something for free common psychology like business sense and as soon as they they get air dropped something they're going to want

to on board the Phantom because they want to see what they're getting it's like the the unboxing thing and that's an nft once they do that you can stitch digital with physical you can retarget that customer you own that customer relationship directly what does that do to your p&l it lowers your customer acquisition cost like I mean that alone that alone takes us 10x to where we are now in terms of users in terms of activity non-speculative activity the LTV of that user is going to stick around on chain no matter if bitcoin's at 100 or or back to 30 you know what I mean like the problem we have as an industry is that that 20 to 30 million users that a6c is pointing to is not

very sticky because if bitcoin's back at 30 yeah that number is going to go down four to five those users we kind of know what those users are right like yes like you use the deck the 50th decks on this new shiny L2 and get their token like yeah yes you can call that user it might be some like farmer like Indonesia doing it but it's not really like a like a power performing user that like the industry like that creates sentiment right so I think like the real users that were targeting it's like the application users I don't want I don't want to talk about chain users I refuse to talk about like active wallets I think that it's the stupidest thing ever because you can go to bot farm and like pay someone like 100 Grand a month and

do that like pretty quickly um I see uh you remember that Libra that Libra chart they had like every company from PayPal to Uber yeah big Consortium chart that's supposed to be a moment yeah yeah like that's what I want and I think it will come back like because all of those companies are now reactivating their interest in doing this I don't think uh I'm not of the mind that like these businesses are no longer skeptical about the industry they just they have internal working groups and have had for a while that now are like okay the design space is opening up and maybe that takes another year once Trump gets elected maybe there's one Pioneer out there that does it stripe doing this bridge acquisition is like G to go down

as an Instagram kind of moment for the space um PayPal launching their own stable coin is huge right then you see a path towards every company launching their own stable coin is circumvent the 2 to 3% merchant processing um but yeah like Po Market's very like volatile in the sense of election drove a big part of the adoption like but um there's just so many from your standpoint like you have like an ecosystem you have a treasury now that is not insignificant how do you put that to work like do you have internal priorities that you say Hey listen we're gonna we're going to Grant and we want to really own this category like we want to own payments we want to own social we

want to own nfts for business like is there something internally that you guys really want to own I've been a treasury for three days so I'm still putting that together um but I think like okay I'm G start on the original Point me on the DM chart because I have it pulled up in front of me um like LT Shopify um like I'm looking at the list of these charts and I think like the two main Market signals I look for is when Lyft or Uber integrates some kind of crypto integration and when Pinterest or a Pinterest variant emerges to Market in crypto I think those would be the two signs that um the adoption is here and coming like I think I think like stripe doing is is is the big moment that you touched on um

and then you have going back to the original chart like you have Spotify and some the other folks that once they do it like I think Shopify would did this with salana um but once you see like the Shopify lift Uber one of those doing it the pinballs all fall because as soon as one of them does it and as soon as them like even like Merchant costs right so like uh the ability for like Uber drivers to get paid usdc so they're not getting hit with like transaction fees Uber and LIF would save like 3 to 5% and not giv to visa and MasterCard and instantly out compete other R sh platforms and I'm sure they're talking about internally I'm sure like there's smer people than me going through this but it's instantly a 10x accomplishment just by accepting stable coins um and I

think that will be on luck that hopefully happens in the next two years and I think like going back to our strategy like I think like one thing thing that we're like I I'm really bullish on is like this younger audience of developers because when we look at like web to and look at Zuckerberg we look at Pinterest all these other ideas I keep bringing pinest because that's like my dream crypto app um those were all like younger Founders the founders were like 21 through like 25 they don't have the best brand name they don't have uh a million dollars to pose but they have this hunger and fire and I think like that's something that I'm really passionate about personally is like if I can go to I know we like the whole concept of a a big infrastructure companies going to like blockchain clubs

have always been bad it's always been like okay uh this big etherum foundation somebody's going to sponsor a hackathon a Berkeley get a few grants and call it a day the issue is that no one really cares about that people like these hack these Builders and students are G to do it get 10 grand and then go get a job at McKenzie that's what I'm trying to avoid I think like my next phase is like and what what me and Cooper did really well is that we were able to start moving because we had like originally two advisor invest not advisor but investors that are like hey you're really smart you're really talented build this thing and actually is the aabs people um Luigi and team were like look you got you're really smart you're buing to move we want to move subnet and what they did is

like they essentially provided like endent support and that means like responding messages explain to me what crypto was basically how Running Company was um and I I hate the whole process of like formal accelerators and hackathons because it doesn't feel genuine I think what these Builders are missing is that lack of connection to like someone who's made it in like who's done the kind of zero to one and then B kind of understands how to navigate all the difficulties of starting a Founder starting a company as a written-off Founder um so I think like I don't know how I'm going to do it actually I'm still try and process this but we do have resources right um and now it's like okay we have we have a lot of ideas we want like that lift integration we want that

Spotify integration we want that uh the kind of consumer app that we buil that we're really interested in um how do we incubate accelerate those and I think the age group that no one's touching is like the college dropup mentality um and I think that's goingon to be my focus for the next six months well certainly they will look to you as inspiration and it's very align with your story look I'm not here to give advice but in in my conversations with foundations and just looking from the outside in it is um if I were in their seat I would be way more aggressive because if you have that amount of Treasury the community grants and the ROI of that is very unclear to me um I would be very focused in in being very

targeted and saying going to a big company and saying Hey listen guys here's the Playbook like literally drop them a a a a be like this is how you do it like let let us do a pilot for you we'll put it all on the table Dev resources the the chain that's done it probably best in my opinion is Avalanche for finance they just have a ton of people working from like City they somehow like recruited everyone from there and they've gotten Black Rock and KKR and Accenture and all these like they've owned kind of the fintech vertical and you know with Avalanche 9000 I mean I didn't fully appreciate but I've had so many conversations with him now mat siing Luigi again today and

it's like uh and Morgan it's um it's pretty impressive what they've done not to say that you couldn't go after that but like I think if you if you really wanted a Pinterest go to Pinterest the stock is down like you know there's all these public companies like they're all struggling the same stuff and it's and it's you you simply just go to them knock on their door and say guys this is move the language this is movement um there is a user based existing crypto that is Young potentially High LTV that you haven't been able to try back and you could acquire on chain and then there's also a user base that you already have that is going to really appreciate the crypto stuff the nft stuff that is fun engaging and the combination of all that takes your

business from one today to one and a half or two yep and I've talk to Luigi a lot about this and I think the biggest issue that they' run into is like these things move too slow like you want to talk to JP Morgan it takes four like Morgan's a phenomenal like she's been crushing over there but she's mentioned it takes forever for these things to move which is like again there's probably better like I think AV labs and that team is doing a phenomenal job but I don't think I'm going to be good at that like I want I want to test burn and try something in six months because ultimately like the way I live I've always run movement is through the 90-day principle you have 90 days to prove yourself to the market and stay relevant um so like every initiative that obviously have longer term

initiatives with the foundation and that's going we talk about but like I'd rather be on like you have 90 days and I think so actually with private equ I can com back to it's very interesting like if you can acquire or like semi acquire a struggling Web Two company that has a lot of potential that has a team that doesn't really have ability to has been around for 10 years hasn't been ability to get liquidity you can say look it's very very easy for you to add crypto to ecosystem and become a very prominent crypto app um like we like talk about like like like mortgages right the whole like house process and buying a house buying a move Mansion is very very difficult to do I don't even know how to buy a move Mansion um if way we could settle those with crypto and go like

this the dying Realtors and dying uh settlement groups that for these house manufacturers and these uh these contractors you're solving a multi-billion dollar market um in three months I mean uh yeah thank you for laying out the thesis LP shouldest no no no listen no no well but you know the business I'm looking at has 22 million subscribers yeah the those 22 million are more real than whatever Jason that higher LTV because they're going to be sticky they don't care if bitcoin's at 100 200 or 30 you're service them a core product you're settling on chain it's invisible

you want to activate them with other things great you know you want to service them nfts yeah lower your customer acquisition cost uh loyalty programs retention you upsell them stuffff I mean honestly I mean again but I do think that um I'm I'm glad to hear you say it because I do think we have four years to figure this [ __ ] out if that 20 to 30 Million number doesn't grow by like two to 5x we're going to who knows what the next Administration is going to look like who knows number of things but the best we can do going back to like uber like uber was so successful in spite of the amount of um Fierce regulatory backlash and lobbying efforts against it

in everywhere in the world from Colombia to the US to Europe because it was the consumers love that product if you're were a politician and you and you shut it down in Paris you heard from every constituent was like what the [ __ ] bring it back and you had to prioritize the taxi Lobby or the or your constituent base and ultimately because it was a killer product Uber prevailed and we have four years to get to that spot and and so I would encourage you to think about yeah I think it the position of the UR in is is good because you're you're tapping into something that the market has already seen that Libra chart I think is so powerful y when I first heard the pitch for apos which I was an

investor in I am an investor in it was like it was that it's like bring that back and the benefit of now is to I don't think it's gonna to your point around like Avalanche saying that it t it has taken a lot of time there has been a lot of in internal resistance of businesses just innovators dilemma they don't want to change processes cuz they are making money and they don't necessarily care but there I think there's like a lot of other businesses that are kind of broken or really hit a a roadblock and because the regular because you have a president that is buying stuff on chain and has an nft collection I would bet that they would move marginally faster I think like going back to Uber example like if you went to taxi companies and told them

build Uber they would never do it or adopt R string they' never do it but because Uber came to Market and was incumbent small Scrappy startup that scaled taxi drivers had to succumb and now like taxis New York taxis are in the Uber app right so similarly like I don't think it makes I I actually disagree with the approach of like going to JP Morgan and getting them to like as get to suum because I think that'll take years versus you get a competitor like that's what I'm focus on get a competitor of 10 college kids that are going to build the next uh like Scrappy uh banking startup or the next Real Estate startup um give them Crypt BS put crypto uh backing um launch a token um and have them compete with their web two Compass um and I think we've seen this

before like we've seen like web 3 Spotify about the real estate like all these things had come to Market but I think like that was the wrong time you couldn't really do that five years ago and I think that's when audius was that's what the name audience was doing this like five years ago it didn't make sense to that like crypto is like not in the right space if you try to pull off audience today you actually actually an Neil from Deli and I've been jamming on this and we want to do something together on this but um like for example like house music creators like there's really shitty Marketplace for them right now um and right now they're getting kind of screwed by big labels um so like my job and like kind of what I'm interested is empowering that group of like 10 college kids to kind of take on

those incumbents build like the next Uber like kind of Genesis and then that creates pressure because if you're a big company and you see like this small crypto compan is getting Tam and stealing market share you're forced to start taking more seriously whereas like if you go to the big organization and say hey J Morgan can you think about crypto they'll be like eight down line put on road map even though they have like a 200 person team yeah but I think you need both I think Avalanche needs to do that to build awareness but I think like where we exist is like we're never going to be Avalanche um I love them but this is kind of where we can accelerate yeah no absolutely man well we're rooting for you and if we could help you know we're here of course um what uh I mean we talked about a lot of

stuff anything else that we you want to talk about generally or um both you rushia Yan Ria are there any uh like things that you saw people bring up on movement on Twitter that you want to dispel um there's no Mansion there's no man R there's a rad infested apartment ined apartment um yeah I think like I mean our architect is uniquely different like yes as go token before chain nonsense but uh I think like people have like kind of delved into kind of we do like we have this fast finale layer that requires deposits and uh like it's h a like maintenance coming next like two or three weeks I'd say um where you can

have all the apps eem live um so it is easy to be like okay launch to before main net caller a day um but you'll see in the next like few weeks that there will be a vique system um all those l2s that I think like the ethereum scale road map for the last like few years has been like definition based and like Min claters and me gr have been back and forth and now he's on fluent so that's fun for me but um we've been back and forth on like rollup definitions and then my counter to that is like dude I don't care um like all these l2s have spin the last five years that spent billion dollars in venture capital and defying what rollups mean and I can't name one app on any of these rollups and I don't think like anyone will ever use

any of these I think Bas cool like they have coinbase and they'll continue to crush but beyond that like I I'm not really excited about anything that's being built on any of these l2s I don't know if you guys are um whereas like salana these all ones even be chain right like be chain is still EV on Cosmos and you still see some super cool as there so like again like I'm not in the business of R definitions you want to come after me and call my role fake call side chain I don't really care I think what gets me excited is like the next six months eight months when we radically accelerate and have crypto apps that people use and I'd rather be a side chain with the top apps in crypto than be a L2 according to ethereum Gods with no users 100% yeah cool man well uh

congrats on everything I know it's ear I feel like these events are just like such a legal headache and dealing with the exchanges and now you can get back to actually building some cool [ __ ] and talking to some started yeah good developer so congrats when are we gonna have a a move uh conference day or move uh you know e Denver were having a pretty big u i mean we did one with abdos actually in Thailand we had like a day that was pretty good but we're probably I remember being at the I remember being at the one at EC in Brussels yeah so we're going to do e you guys should do one at permission list in Brooklyn in June there we go he had to he had to Shell permission it's coming to Brooklyn we don't want to go to Denver it's coming

to Brooklyn we do okay I think like I'm just kidding I love eat Denver we want to go pretty hard um at permission list as well let's go um rushie how does it feel to uh be like 23 and have a boatload of money to your name 22 but um uh it's not liquid obviously um and they could go down 90% but also it's like again one of the things about being young is I don't really need it like I'm fine with my Williamsburg shitty apartment I think more so it's like I'm not really happy until we're the next salana and we actually have tangible outcomes like I want this Libra chart to come alive and that's my goal the DM chart into existence it into existence

that's my focus too like we we have four years to figure [ __ ] out and grow that 20 to 20 to 30 million users to over 100 and if we don't do that none of the [ __ ] will matter yeah I mean also like we talk about even like wealth right salana is salana because like they actually have people using their chain right um so I think from my my side like jobs is getting started u token is GNA go down 50% next week go up 50% next week I don't really know um but I think ultimately if we had Builders e system I think one thing I'm proud of is like the community was stoked we like I think community members made like 10 or 15 grand each and U people were generally very very happy I think that builds loyalty right I think berisi tweeted

about this the other day where it's like um like it was a quote tweeting one of our commun members and it was like dude like that stuff builds loyalty because historically l2s have kind of been like oh I'm gonna launch a token trade down 90% dumo community and then the chain dies and people wonder why no one uses it well now it's like we have millions of people that made a [ __ ] ton of money off of us um and hopefully kept or whatever they did with it um and will be loyal to move any system even when the token goes down 90% yeah cool rishy congrats man than been a treat following your progress man keep keep keep evangelizing and let's let's make that Libra chart Great me it will it into existence and I'm counting on you to do that thanks man you

too hey everyone thanks for watching today's episode just wanted to quickly thank today's title sponsor scale scale really is one of the best chain experiences out there today and I've used so many different chains there's a reason they are gaining so much adoption in both gaming and AI use cases hit the link in the show notes to explore the scale ecosystem [Music]