Movement Labs: 'Facebook's MOVE Will Bring Billions of Users to Crypto' - Rushi Manche. Ep. 542

Transcript

the biggest thesis back then and even now is that web 3 isn't secure enough Facebook wanted to build a stable coin um to power Facebook itself that was a DM leader project they looked at the evm looked at the svm and decided that it wasn't good enough so the language itself it's a lot easier to write code there's actually some diagram that shows like to write account checks U for a full module it takes svm like two pages it takes EV like five pages it takes like the movie on like 10 lines if we ever have more than like a th000 users on chain the evm CH simply can't handle load because you're waiting for one thread what parition enables you at multiple threads so if you have 10 transactions instead of waiting for A to B to C to D you can do a transaction

transaction B transaction C transaction D all the same time because you have multiple threads in the VM this episode is brought to you by nosis nosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the ethereum ecosystem with a rich history dating back to 2015 and products like safe cow swap or nosis chain nosis combines needs driven development with deep technical expertise this year marks the launch of gsis pay the world's first decentralized payment network with theosis card you can spend self- custody crypto at any Visa accepting Merchant around the world if you're an individual looking to live more onchain or business looking to wh

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one welcome to epicenter of the show which talks about the Technologies projects and people driving decentralization in the blockchain revolution I'm Sebastian and I'm here with my co-host F ER today we're talking to rushim Mana he's the co-founder of movement Labs they're a network of move based modular blockchains uh before we talk to rousi just want to disclose that movement Labs is a portfolio company of interop Ventures uh but with that out of the way hey rushi thanks for joining us how's it going guys pleasure to be on here yeah uh so we were just talking before the show about like eth Denver and uh I think this is the first episode to come out after the conference or maybe the second but yeah you you we

were both there wearing the movement uh sweatshirt which is very com yeah what were your impressions about eth Denver and you know compared to last year like how do you think the space has evolved I mean the short answers we're back um last year it was like kind of dreary because like post FTX I it was like three months after FTX and all the debacles and everyone was like pretty down bad if you were there you were like in it for like actual long long turn there weren't that many side events uh weren't that many parties weren't that many like fun things which is in a curse I think last year we saw a lot more like Builders coming to the market and actually presenting some new cool novel ideas and it was more signal than noise

and then at Denver there's a lot of signal but even more so noise especially okay rise of the crypto AI narrative um but seeing a lot of those decks flowing around honestly have had a difficult trying to filter out what's real and what's not real but more importantly I think it's like great to see the public market like obviously Market's back bitcoin's alltime High um price action is doing well private markets are going crazy crazy um so the excitement's back I think that was really great to see but I think it's important to know like you have to be kind of wary because I think we're heading way too fast in upwards Direction like even before happening Bitcoin is alltime high which creates a lot of like macroeconomic questions for how long um this goal can last as a super cycle whatnot um so as like a

builder it's very important to like a focus on distribution keep like capitalizing the market but also remaining like conscious that it's probably not going to be a longterm thing and maybe so economics like suggesting it's a short-term thing um so that kind of adjusts timelines I think a lot of different um infrastructure companies are paying touch the markets in terms of timelines for product launches and whatnot um so that's one side of story I think some key to finding narratives you had AI could AI obviously like intersection as a core narrative um obviously Nvidia is going crazy right now which trickles down as the private markets um and the like modularity which still retaining from last year um I think we saw have a DA Focus modular so you had like Celestia

Avail um and then this year we put out like maer day as kind of the flagship event um and really focused on the VM level experimentation um some move VM svm um was and VM and a few different groups U really come to Market explain why alternative to important and then wecking obviously it's a big narrative that um I has been pushing on looking forward to launch yeah I I felt like eth Denver this year could have been just like modular week it felt like every event had a modular twist to it or was either like about modular or had like people giving panels about about the modular uh thesis and modular stack and like Avil had an event celesia had an event you guys had an event uh and and tons of

other sort of like more ethereum aligned uh teams were were doing events on on modular like how how important you think modular is to to the current cycle and in terms of narratives you know like what amount of developer mind share do you think it's actually capturing versus what the markets are saying like how how markets are perceiving it I maer is now used a good to Market term um it's like modu alignment where you want to structure your company to be inoperable with other networks systems um which I think is a good thing like if you look at traditional Tech or even traditional like Hardware the companies that W where the

are able to build um parts and Hardware that's interoperable with other ecosystems uh that wasn't tied into one vendor lockin I think that's what we're seeing in web 3 where if you're building AI oracles if you're building infrastructure um you want to be able to tie into different eem different chain for cross chain go multi-chain um and interoperate because you have a bigger client base have bigger marketing exposure um so I think Moder now is a marketing term where if you're infrastructure if you're an app you want to be Moder so can align with different systems where it's if it's actually a maer that's yet to be determined probably not honestly um maer in this case probably refers using Alda using experim different like VM levels but

I've seen like maer be used for like rpcs be used for um like even like apis um so I think maer is like a bigger landscape which gives credit to Celestia they've turned their narrative into like a meta um and allows if like bunch of different companies to align under like one unified umbrella and we'll get into the entire modulus St in just a bit rushi but it is your first time on epicenter so maybe uh tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got into this and what what made you start movement Labs yes so my back was engineering um S I was 14 I was always interested in distribute Systems Technology and

whatnot um started software engineering I worked at United Health Group let on from databases and Cloud immigration first team over there um got into that pretty early on then somewhere across crypto was really interested in all programing languages especially rust based par langages so Kaza wasam Ross move was really exciting to me um from there uh me and my co-founder Cooper both at vable University uh which is a university in the south of United States um he was a few years older than me but um I was building one of the first Dex in abdos Heil the first shield dragger in abdos so we were early move Builders this was August of 2022 um so pre FX um back when like things were better um in that cycle and then we wanted to bring

like we love move language I think I stumble across it because uh I read like a New York Times article or some like block article where I was like Facebook's doing this uh blockchain programming language and their new blockchain initiative it got me excited because I was always interested in blockchains but I was always concerned of security and would ever scale to mainstream consumers and Facebook is the biggest consumer app on the planet and they took a bet on um programming and start move language so I built the first de app do that ultimately led to uh movement because we wanted to bring the new BM to ethereum I again more to the move side but U was kind of how I got here yeah super cool yeah let's get into the move side so basically move is a

language as you said created by Facebook um to to be more Dev friendly more more secure that and um solidity in the likes of solidity like Viper it's been used for like for for Libra and DM obviously uh but kind of sui and updos are the main chains that kind of build on it today tell us um what kind of sets move apart from their solidity yes I think going back to the route Facebook wanted to build a stable coin um to power Facebook itself that was a DM leer project they looked at the evm looked at the svm and decided that it wasn't good enough they needed their own infrastructure needed a VM and

language that could scale for billions of users as well as provide security for onchain the biggest thesis back then and even now is that web 3 isn't secure enough if I ever want my mom or anyone in my family to use crypto um the biggest thing they're saying is isn't going to get hacked isn't going to be rugs is there like a lot of scams going on and mo was kind of built to combat that from the smart contract level so it stops like 90 95% of tax Factory we're seeing today in evm um as well as provid obvy for some of the tax SPM as well um so some so that's kind of the ru and origin cost and then we kind of bring into like why moo the thesis is a was built by the biggest consumer app bringing new web to developers over the

next two to three years you'll see s and apas use their big treasuries um to attract consumer apps and consumer Builders um to bring net new developers to system as on the language itself is designed to be a blockchain first language the analogy like to say is like move is to rust as reactors JavaScript if you follow javascripts history in web 2 um it came to Market no one really liked writing JavaScript um and then react came to Market made website generation much easier like you can design custom components um you're like object oriented um same thing with move it's people don't really like working rust be like the Frameworks on top of it um so move the move and the move VM is a framework you can think of it on top of rust where you can design modules that

are very custom you can have onchain attack protection um so the language itself it's a lot easier right code there actually some diagram that shows like to write account checks U for a full module it takes the svm like two pages it takes the evm like five pages it takes like the movie in like 10 lines as well as you have embedded onchain protection so you have the move prover at the VM level which stops Ry Sops overflows um it stops the T to C of um so it's the most important inovation security while also being paralyzed so Tates in the paralyze narrative um block STM was actually built by app do laabs um as p by manad and a few other groups um so think of like the best the fastest VM and your favorite auditor combined

into one VM at one time the evm and solidity in particular I mean they are pretty low level and they let you do a lot of things that other programming languages like move don't let you do um so for instance things like inline assembly or something like move would never let you to this right but the reason why it was devised this way was to give developers more freedom in kind of um optimizing for things like uh gas cost right um so with kind of this more prescriptive language that move is you are also somewhat tied down in in you know in in terms of what

you can actually do especially in kind of um a distributed system such as kind of um a blockchain ecosystem does this concern you that you can't kind of optimize for things as well as you could in the more permissive languages I think going back to web to example like you don't have the flexibility with reactor VR angular um it's simply the best framework to build and design websites if you really want customizations you can go at a C++ level you can like generate your own um kind be rail Frameworks um that's more design specific um like Mega use cases I think this two sets of argument here a move increases the velocity of production so

let's say for example um I'm a 24y old kid I will I want to launch my own defa app in two weeks move is the best way to do that because you can get to Market quickly you can write code quickly you don't have to worry about account checks um you don't have to worry about keep debugging um so it's the easiest way to sprint on product development if you do want lowlevel customizations the movie system is actually working on um allw in line assembly and um integrating assembly directly into the move language obviously it's a nent language it was launched like a year ago so there's a lot of fixes and optimizations are happening um but over the next three or four years I'd imagine that um move also doops a similar lowlevel support um I think the appest team is working on this

as well as we're looking into as well um we actually look at it at the bod level so you can actually directly write Ule um which is like a Assembly Language directly to RBM um that's part of our text that kind of differentiates it from uite we made fully even compatible so you can take theity code did 145 op codes map to the 54 move op codes and launch the BM between that process it's we have a abstract syntax tree which enables run time SDK to understand you BYO but also if you are very talented developer and you want customizations at smart contract level and you want to use assembly you can write U will directly to The Interpreter no that's super interesting I I had no idea that was happening how how do you feel about the um mind share

Advantage for the evm obviously the evm is been around a lot longer and there's tooling and people know it and uh there's tutorials and so on do you think this can be overcome by kind of like the um the sort of treasuries that Facebook and upas and sui and so on put into it I think it's not comp it's not a PVP they both exist if you want to use Lio today uh evm is the best place to use it and will be the best place to use it for next 5 years but the thing The Stance is the evm how I approaches Legacy code it is code that works really well for past use cases um when we had a thousand us on chain move is designed for billions of users on chain it was designed for Facebook to be on chain

which is why you have paraliz but also have Security benefits so it's actually complimentary such that that you have the evf Legacy code um and Legacy software for early um kind of web transations you can think about Bitcoin script still supports um people still use it for various use cases but if you ever want to do onchain cons onchain social um any actual use case that requires High through group applications as well as security you need to use a framework like move how move approaches is we recognize the shortcomings of of U Move itself in terms of a new language as well as the network effects of evm and we combine it so we have an mm where you have move support as well as evm support So if you're looking at po Lio on chain or like a onchain or Unis swap on chain today you can use the evm

runtime and interpreter if you want to build a next uh biggest consumer app you can use the move SDK as well um I think that's the best way to approach next gen VMS which is I think a lot of different groups messed up on a lot of lir ones and next BMS were like this is our program language just our framework it's the best thing if you don't use it you can screw off and then they lost a lot of developers it was difficult to attract liquidity for us we acknowledging that evm still has a liquidity we are ful support actually being as ethereum lot as possible while supporting mov in long term um and supporting proliferating its growth hey you talked about parallelization um a couple of times there can you kind of go into what that means So In traditional evm or any other stack

you have sequential processing which means you have transa if you have transaction transaction A to B to C to D um So within a given VM you're waiting for a transaction to finish for one single thread typically in today's crypto environment sometimes it's not a big deal if you're using Lio um like you'll have $5 gas fees or whatnot um which for some us just for big whales it's fine if you have a million dollars on chain you pay $5 gas fees um They Don't Really Care um but what paration enables you at multiple threads so if you have 10 transactions instead of waiting for A to B to C to D you can do a transaction transaction B transaction C transaction D all at the same time because you have multiple threads within the VM it was first started with like the block SDM process which abess pioner

which is a new form of parel processing that enables High through um paralyzed threads why it's really important is for two reasons a you want low gasped so if you look at near if you look at swe say they have next to nothing gas fees which is from paralyzation um while if you look at the evm you still have ethereum which hits like $50 gas fees even layer 2os today are pretty expensive and they require layer 3es to scale my thesis is that layer 3es don't make sense if you have a paralyzed Layer Two because you can multiple threads um that can handle manage State the second thing is on um if you look at descriptions as the best use case of paration every evm chain went down like like saying your AR went down 120 TPS it's if the chain didn't go down like

Avalanche it was at like $50 gas fees which means that if if we ever have more than like a thousand users on chain the evm chain simply can't handle load because you're waiting for one thread think about logic right if you have a high impact event like uh inscriptions or game going crazy on one thread um and you unit swap on the same thread it's going to cause the gas P for unit swap to go up or if there's a world where you can multiple threads and you have gas fees go crazy on one thread but doesn't affect un swap doesn't affect dydx doesn't affect GMX Auto threads so you can actually have modularity within the threads itself instead of requiring constant infrastructure upgrades um that make no sense at scale so long story short priz enables concurrent transaction processing which allows low

gas fees as well as allows for a management of State during times of high network activity uh there's a lot to unpack here so I think some of these things in the ethereum ecosystem are being tackled by um intense based transactions right what's your take on those I think intens TR action is pretty early on I know like shog is trying to do something for them like the modic system I know one inch is also trying to push towards that um the general thesis with that it's like very early stage is yet to be proven um because there's a lot of interopa problems if you're tring intense between like an evm chain um on one like Layer Two and another layer two like across is probably the biggest one here um it's

very difficult to do like bridging standards and there a lot of secure assumptions they making um but say yes in the evm world intense is another way to tackle that um but still the fees are generally high and there still um like just because you like just the cross has intense built to the bridging doesn't mean um it can handle High load if that was the case um like inscriptions would not Tak another chance so basically um when you talk about parallelization I mean basically we used to have this this idea any the that I very much hope is going to return at some point with W with kind of like smart shards um where basically you have IND where you have individual execution environments with local states that kind of can um interact async with one

another when you have stacks that natively do parallelization how do you handle the state how do you make sure that you kind of have one Ledger how do you deal with security well think that's one of the benefits of using ethereum is layer too as you inherit the network security and the Bor set and the kind of decentralization that ethereum has already built and he put the movm on top of that and bring paration to ethereum which is why I think it's very like the vision for the is actually to bring paration to the VM level because you can inherit security manage St bloat through the settlement dealers while you have VMS that can provide performance paralyzation you have like paralyzed

EVMS coming now to ethereum you have svms move VMS um so definely like a rise of these version machines but they're all saying that ethereum is still the best M place to M State um and data I'll hand off to to Seb here sorry for the for the uh intense inter interrogation here from the evm camp no these are these are all great questions I I love it uh I was just watching and uh and uh really enjoying that whole exchange I mean you know to kind of bounce back on what you were saying rishy you know in terms of you know the evm being Legacy code I sometimes equate DVM and I know this this analogy doesn't overlap exactly but look at the evm and solidity a little bit as I do you know

PHP PHP has been around for over 20 years it it is still powering something like 60 to 70% of websites on the internet uh you know most of which are WordPress websites and Facebook uh however you know ask a college kid today or like a young engineer what language he's building with like he's probably using you know like nodejs and react and all these sort of new uh web 2 Frameworks and not PHP so I I sort of look at the evm and solidity in the same uh from the same perspective where I think the evm will continue to power very important applications in defi will continue to power these you know sort of Legacy applications that uh are going to

be uh you know very very important to ethereum and sort of crypto infrastructure moving forward but you know as the space moves towards a more modular uh uh ecosystem sack uh new VMS that are better suited uh for for that uh for that infrastructure will probably Prevail in those ecosystems is that a good way to look at it or is that analogies missing missing some parts no I think that makes perfect sense like I I could touched on like the evm has done a great job of bootstrapping the initial crypto user base um in use cases for defi um but there's still is a lot of challenges so that's why these alt BMS are coming um

either for performance security and a bunch of other different trade-offs um to kind of scale existing ethereum use cases um but like liquid with with web 2 is kind of different where you have if you have a novel new text stack if you a cool new website you can essentially vampire attack the existing like user base and bring it over pretty quickly probably within a two three month tax span that's not really possible in crypto because you have Financial incentives so if you have like five billion locked up on one e system it's very difficult to migrate and essentially take all the liquidity over to a new n ecosystem um which is why um it's it's more of like a longterm Horizon where you'll see liquidity slowly move to xana which is why xana has been kind of crushing in um it's been steadly growing TV as with apos

andu so we're slowly seeing the liquidity and users kind of move over to the next gen VMS but it's still going to be a 10 year process probably before the evm is at least completely challenged um so in the current state of execution environment is you acknowledge the evm acknowledge the liquidity benefits it has while try try to keep different use cases for these alt VMS make sure those use case is actually reach fruition and then slowly work on acquiring the even liquidity once you prove that um I think the two main contenders are this SDM and movm um a which have a huge eem backing um from pre-existing level ones and B have specific teams that are tearing out on the allm to system so maybe just like Playing devil's avocate here like what

do you make of the fact that you know bar chain is launching an evm chain uh you know say also is I I think now dropping km wasm uh to uh to favor a paralyzed evm in in order to you know attract more developers I think they've found it difficult to attract km wasm developers you know if this is all true and if like move and and and solot VM are better suited to uh this kind of new era of blockchain applications why are you know these very large like especially bar chain right this like large ecosystem play putting evm first I'll turn a save point of view where the

paralyzed evm I would contend is not the same as evm it's completely redesigned Rich machine it just even compatible we can argue that our mm is a paralyzed evm um even though it's completely different Rich machine so I think the paralyze evm is I would consider also as the nextg VM um because it's a complete redesigned version machine just has evm compatibility from the start um there are security issues facility but um say isn't really prioritizing that because their go to market is being a trading First Chain um being a highr chain so they don't really care for optimizing for Smart Country security um so simple as say example the Mona example is those are completely different EVMS or BMS I would not say they're current evm um they're actually like the Mona ebm when

say ebm which is completely different um so still ties in the next gen thesis and then as for be I say that's like the main value prop there is a community they've done a great job of assembling um maybe the most viant community in crypto today um and a lot of their activity is based on this proof of liquidity consensus uh where it actually doesn't make sense to use an next nbm because they don't really care about speed they don't really care about um security as much they're more focused on using governance and using the liquid staking and weaking narrative um but I know for example like talking to the teams and different teams are through is a concern for them because um even like mempool went down recently it probably won't be able to do more than like 50 TPS at scale um so it's we're actually

going to be working with beain and bringing the mov VM to their system um probably more experimental in down the road map but um for any game that wants to launch a bar chain simply probably won't work it probably needs like scan exclusion for that yeah so therefore like be chain will sort of act as a a security layer for l2s and and uh and other app chains that want to leverage bear chain security yep cool let's let's talk about the stack um so you know immediately there are different parts of the stack here that I me even for me sometimes like it can still be a little bit confusing so you know there's M1 there's M2 and the idea here is for like M1 to act as you know the sort of like layer

one that uh that enables M2 chains and rollups to to launch on top of it can you explain like broadly what the stack looks like and um where and also you know maybe zooming out like where these different components sit within the modular stack if we bring and like now Celestia and aenir uh maybe like Union for inability you know if we're looking at a sort of infographic of this like what would that look like yeah so we start top down so execution there you have the movement VM which is the DM Sal machine supports mov smart contracts as well as supports evm smart contracts so it's an evm interpreter that's a v transition transpire um that exists on top so any smart contracts whether you and move or

slowly this other exer settlement is ethereum um we believe that the best security centralization also enables liquidity to easily flow to layer 2 um through a trust minimized Bridge the kind of stack of framework we're using is a Zer drup we're using um verer right now for ZK fra proofs um but also looking to scope out our own um ZK movm proving kit um so you have mum execution the sement ZK fraud proofs um as kind of RA framework and right now using celes for da um given that's the one that's live today as well as allows for um cold data to be pushed directly da and say us a lot of gas fees um so it's kind of like this Frankenstein of like different

layers which is kind of the direction I think a lot of different rups heading into us um and last Bas on sequencer portion I think today's centralized sequencers cannot scale and do not scale I think most people agree if you look at descriptions like it l broke every sequence that exist um and the simple reason that Arbor sham ZK syn and these teams aren't innovating is because they're making a lot of money on sequencer fees um because we're in next 10 rollup our fees are basically pennies so we don't actually prioritize sequencer fees we have a fully decentralized sequencer date one um that enables valers to stick the move token to participate in sequencing the ler to so it's a fully decentralized layer to network um where the transaction fees are distributed to stakeholders

stakeholders take the token to participate in sequency um so actually is like a bridge between like a layer one and Layer Two that sense how how do you deal with um the decentralized sequencing because if you kind of look at the L2 stack on E theum right now no one's really figured this out yet right so basically Aztec are the people who are who are saying look we're not going to do this without but uh they're also saying they'll probably launch earliest in the year or so yeah so I think laring groups like orig base C they all announce like optimism super chain is a sequencer as I think they've all announced they want to do decens sequencer but like I touched on there is no economic incentive for

them to prioritize it because they're making a lot of money on the sequencer fees so it's always like okay we'll eventually do that or we'll work with a third party but the third party never really works out um so it's always been pushed back um for us it's a directly a priority a because we're a highr pro chain so we need to have a decentralized sequencer to manage the load balance Network and then B that's our token business model we need a decentralized sequencer for the bers to have taking privilege which actually crues value and buy pressure for the token um so that means we're actually prioritizing it's a core part of tech stack I think metas is another one or mode one of those um has started and launched with the decent sequencer um and I think we'll see a lot more of this come I think AST is also

launching the new layer to of the decentralized sequencers so teams that prioritize decentralized sequencers will be able to Sprint to Market while teams that don't prioritize it have no incentive to do so um C can you walk us through how it works so the only the only technical implementation that I'm aware of um is the one that cell is pushing kind of who are moving from like an L1 to an L2 Network so how how do you go about it yeah so I think we have a very similar approach solo cell had a layer one they now approaching this like layer 2 on ZK validium all the Val from cell or layer one to layer one St the cell token to participant sequencing for the cell to um so that kind of works how we have it right so we have M1 which is

both us St consensus for those that AR familiar it's from the Avan cheek system um that's essentially a fast finality um extremely low hardw requirements and very decentralized consens mechanism that's our sequencer Val s the move token to participate in sequencing for layer to um the benefits of you snowman there is leaderless um if when you want to C transactions you can have multiple different NOS so if one no goes down the network doesn't go down you have a centralized point of failure um and then B anyone can run a node for the network so the issues with xana and swes the hard requirements are very high the minimum Stakes are very high um so it's very centralized in that sense with our St consensus anyone can run a node it's very low stick requirements um so we can

have much more decentralization at Network level cool I want to come back to the to the stack a little bit um so could you describe like what is the role of of M1 so is M1 like the the sort of shared sequencer that all M2 chains are are going to use yeah and and then how does M1 then Connect into IBC and then all of the other like move chains that are part of the broader you know move ecosystem you all have M2 as the main like fra we think of like the optimism chain um the main chain and you have M1 sequencer which is kind of analogous to optimism's Super chain sequencer and then they have other move RS Laing the network they're all sequenced by the

same um sequencer set which is M1 which is like the op stack rollups um so similar business model there we're is focused on a launching our sequence off the bat and B on the next gen VM so our stack will actually be complimentary to LP stack where you can use the lp stack use the move stack for the VM and connect to the sequencer I think everyone's customizing a DA layer customizing Ro Frameworks customizing improv marketplaces but then not touching the evm at all um our stance is we don't believe that should be the case we should we want experimentation at the VM level if you're building a gaming Ro up which we' SE a lot of demand for you probably want to use the move V M orm something like that um and yeah the M1 signaler connects all the different systems allows for liquidity to be

routed seamlessly and then endv vision is you have these hundreds of rollups all connected to ethereum um with this decentralized sign set fasinating and um yeah let's maybe just zoom in a little bit to where Celestia fits into all this and how it supports the the rollups being built on on top of Alm one yeah so the faces last year was um each settlement and e da is very expensive if our like optimiz Aram the fees are pretty high there so how can we create all da um to really um scale etherum rollups so that you can still be on eum settlement but post call data to a cheaper Source that's when Celestia I a veil even near now um kind of position

ourselves as leaders in the space um from there uh kind of like what RS like ourselves Eclipse Manta Etc have been focusing on is okay we're bringing all VMS and nextg VMS and different VM Stacks to ethereum we need to use Celestia because if you have a paralyzed VM on top of ethereum you're not using all ta still going really expensive um you'll inherit the security of the obviously be a true L2 but the user experience can be pretty subpar at least until full ding shorting is out which is up is out at this point so that's kind of thesis using Alda that also ties into the kind of IBC narrative which you touched on before we're working with Union on being fully obvious compatible they're building out sole like kind machines for us so um essentially if you want to do cross chain swaps on top of

M2 you can do that with IBC itself C osmosis C to Juno conect to your favorite um Cosmos zones um or Ro chains or whatever you want to call it um yeah so we're recording this on March the 12th and the Dan upgrade is going to be tomorrow so kind of this will give us Proto Dan Shing I think it's pretty obvious that it's not going to be enough but how much do you think it'll help the entire call data situation yeah so it's G be exciting day tomorrow um so looking forward to that but um to be quite Frank I don't think it's going to be that noticeable um I've seen like some recent measurements and like I think I may be a few cents difference

full D sharting as we know it is like three to four years out um which that could said we can reassess the needs for all da um but I think like SL it can cut fees down by 99% today um while pro d sharting is like .1% something like that so I don't think it really it really is a factor I think user experience I made e be a little bit better um it's it's a right step in the right direction um but the the truth of the matter is like ethereum foundation and like ethereum itself um can't move as rapidly as like Celestia I and third party infrastructure groups um so in the short term and Midterm honestly um all D is the market and what's the role of like reaking within the sort of movement

story and how does Ian L fit into all this yeah so recing has always been an interesting N I think it's definitely probably the hottest thing right now one the hottest things um people want to use ethereum security there's groups bringing you to Cosmos there's groups bringing you to like Bitcoin um and just like kind of using more Capital efficient markets um we're seeing a lot of L twos work with recing providers at the bridge contract level so imagine um you have like Aram you dep deposit each to barbam it can en restake you with Rio Renzo one of players um and have extra yield um so I think these are much like yield bearing strategies that lar is adopting um I think the way we're approaching is like also similar to that

like having an LRT at the bridge contract if you're a family office like with fun you allow to eat you want deposit on a chain you can re you can stake it on LR on LST and then restake with LRT on the bridge cler level have it fully automated so you don't need to worry about it have like extra yield that you wouldn't be able to get easily um and the benefit of L is that because it's for we verified is actually the most secure way to restake eth so we talked a lot of liquid funds the concern they have is okay I want to earn yield but security is really important to me um I'm not a family office I don't like to um take a lot of risk I just like hold eth and sell at certain times um so for them the pitch is okay this is the

best place to e restake it earn the yield that you want and have it fully fly rified so it's not security concerns um that you're actually worrying about it actually creates a bigger narrative around insurance which gets me excited because in the past um insurance has been really pretty much useless because of smart contract risk there's actually a world where you can because you have restake you can use as collateral for investment um so if you're like using a or Unis swop onchain you want to use restake as collateral you you can use I Insurance um which is another part protocol they're working on um as collateral for the investment so that's another AVS that's actually really exciting especially for move because the security gaps um enable it to be um much more risk adverse a r for risk better uh which enables interest rates to be lower

which enables retail Capital to come in more easily any thoughts on the rise of Bitcoin l2s because kind of we've in the in the past months or so those have been all the r right yeah I think like personally I don't really understand that well I'm not that deep at Bitcoin space so like the Bitcoin programming space I'm sure there other people can see better to it um for my understanding it's like a way for people to take existing Bitcoin reserves put it onchain or put it into uh where now like custody multi sigs or side chains and earn yield for that so in the shortterm makes sense it's a way to generate yield um and it's a way for layer twos or whatever you want to call it um to boost sh TV believe R in chain got like two billion

three billion tvl in a week or something crazy um I think a lot of ecosystems are now looking at that how can we acquire um Bitcoin liquidity in the past rap BTC was always available but um Family offices liquid funds don't really want to rap BTC because a l process gas fees are really high it's another risk so BTC al2 is enable native Bitcoin to exist um and be repurpose for yield so I think what a lot of different groups are looking at is how can we integrate something like Babylon um integrate um like the BTC acud from there and earn yield for our system um so something that we're looking to is is there a world where we can BR na a BTC via Babylon or other infrastructure providers and have that used in defi um but obviously we're experimental um and

probably more down the road map but I think like Bitcoin itself is here to stay I think the ETF proved that it's going to be like currency of gold it's not going be very programmable I don't imagine the next social or gaming app being built on these btcl 2s I don't think that's possible at my current knowledge I think it's just a way to repurpose BTC which is cool so I think short-term play makes sense long-term kind un sure but teams like us are looking to kind of Leverage that for existing tvl Security benefits yeah I personally think that Bitcoin is going to play a a bigger and bigger role in the layer 2 narrative in the coming year and you know a lot of that I think is fueled by you know the

etcf bringing like lots more liquidity into the space but also um a lot of the kind of technical developments that are happening there soorry you know there was this uh Bitcoin Renaissance event at Denver and I think like half of the teams that were that were that had boost there were were were building some kind of restake Bitcoin product or liquid stake Bitcoin product and and I think that you know given bitcoin's position as like the largest and more secure blockchain it makes a ton of sense for that Capital to be utilized uh well one in defi through liquid stake assets uh whe now whether like that's technically possible that you know you can do sort of trust minimize versions of Bitcoin on

other chains is going to be very important like you know we don't want this just to be a multisig but then yeah the security aspect I think is also huge so like whoever figures that out uh and brings it to Market I think will will do very well want to move on now to yeah you you guys announced a couple of months ago a partnership with yeah Union and Noble and I was really excited about this because uh we're we're also very bullish on on those two teams yeah how does this um help bring usdc to movement and can you describe maybe like the role of Union in BR bringing IBC to you know the movement ecosystem but also Cosmos and ethereum and sort of tying it all together so

that we can have fungible uh usdc across all these platforms yeah I think like IBC has always been like regarded as the most secure one of the best bridg exard in the market um and there's a bunch of Transport layers on top of that um which like layer zero Wormhole hyperlane recently Wormhole is a a worm chain or a Gateway now which is their Cosmos adaption lay zero and hyperlane both have um also IBC adaptions you have Axl as well so all the biggest bridging protocols all use IBC under the hood but they use it probably non-native way um it's really difficult on the ux point of view to use them like for one you have to bridge to Gateway and then Bridge gateway to respective chains um there's

lack of native IBC connections so there's a few groups that have emerged to kind of solve this problem you have like Palmer Labs you have like composable Finance you have Union Labs now um they're now looking at different ways to bring IBC natively to systems so part of our partnership with Union is they're working on building direct like line machines um for a l two so if you're dap on top of movement you can do transactions directly dooses do it to other chains um it starts off through the union chain I believe but eventually there'll be native IBC compatibility which is really exciting because now you can have native USC um you can have Adam Tia you can get benefits of all the assets that people want on Shane without relying on a third party um insecure

Bridge provider I think my general thesis is that IBC is the cosmos standard I know we touched on this in convergence uh where Cosmos accomplishes the vision the internet of blockchains where every roll up every L1 L2 L3 whatever you want to call it will use IBC as a main bridging provider bridging standard of the hood it just depending on like where the rappers on top of it the transfer lers on top of it that facilitate that um so you have like worm doing it from like their point of view which is more third party and more um trust Reliant and you have like Union and polymer which are looking to kind of address the security assumptions and increase speeding times you you specifically looking at zki IC they build Comet BLS which is a new standard uh for messaging um some pretty exciting

and bullish on that uh which is kind of why we're working with it yeah I'm glad you mentioned conversion because there's a couple of topics that uh we we touched on at the event that I'd like to bring up here so you know one of the topics that we talked about was USD denominated asset dominance in crypto so obviously like usdc and and tether are you know by a large margin uh leading in stable coin issuance uh you know over things like like d and and other decentralized stable coins do do you think this like um you know Carell from Union was on the panel also uh and so I I encourage those who haven't seen that to go check it out it's on the nebular summit YouTube

channel we'll link to it in the show notes but you know he was saying that you know he felt that there was a risk uh to crypto to having these well one like centralized centrally issued stable coins but also I think another topic that uh another sort of point that I haven't heard brought up very often is yeah you know this usdc denominated stable coin so this kind of like us alignment US dollar alignment uh risk you do do you see that as a risk and uh you know how how can one mitigate that con considering the fact that like these stable coins already have like such dominance over the space so yeah we cuss like usdc dominance and my thing is like I

actually Pro Circle dominance in the short term because if we already have very few users on chain and like if you want like consumer safety right now we need like a third party like big provid Servo coinbase to really issue these assets and provide confidence to retail users like going back to my example like family using crypto um if I told them to use like die on maker or like some of these other state coin providers they're probably freak out and being what is this if I said it was like okay it's a stable coin issued by circle like now probably going to be a public IPO company um very us regulated has a lot of rules regulations they feel a lot more comfortable so there's like two kind of markets here right you have like retail which is like people who don't

really know crypto at all they want to export with it you need Circle you need a coinbase you need centralized authori for them to feel comfortable and you have the experience on chain Deens people have been trading for years um they recognize that in the world that Circle kind of goes Rogue or coinbase goes Rogue um they want the ability to save guard their Holdings that's why D is really interesting that's why UCT like is interesting as that like Athena which is not a stable coin but they providing different in investment kind of issuances so I think there's different groups for those categories where you can provide Solutions and stable coins and assets um for more R 3 native people but to bring in people's space you do need centralized authorities so I'm actually Pro Circle Pro coinbase issued

assets yeah I think that makes sense to me I think in the short term it makes sense you know luing in the back of my mind is always this censorship risk with usdc I think that's really the main risk that I see but as the space becomes more regulated that is going to be the case also most likely like I mean all applications and DS will be subject to uh potentially like having deenal transactions that don't fall in line with like compliance yeah in terms of um yeah like this Cosmos and ethereum convergence uh idea uh which was the main main topic of the the panel in Denver yeah what's the end game here for

you like in terms of Cosmos and ethereum coming closer together and benefiting from each other's sort of strong points uh where do you see that heading towards I think ethereum is used for liquidity um is used for settlement security while Cosmos is used for communication um think Cosmos has a lot of different features they tenament they SDK the IBC um the com Comm bft there the whole Zone thesis with like custom app chains I think a lot of the times the zones a lot of struggle with obviously tokenomics and boost Shing Val that's a pretty difficult um but the one thing that was always prominent and like beautiful was if you had multiple zones you could use

a cosmos and get connected to as say connected to your favorite chains um and it's permissionless inter operability which is kind of like hyps model but I really see that kind of Mantra sping towards um the F mod stack where in this world where you have all these rollups and all asally chains you don't want to wait for a third party Bridge provider to always deploy if I'm building a new gaming chain I want to launch 3 weeks I sure have to wait for ler zero um or any other um kind of third party brid provider to deploy on top of me I should be able to use IBC or some third party pretty standard um to get connected to my favorite chains so I can Sprint on my product um so I think that's where IBC has a unique Market where enables for permissionless introp you a few

different groups buing rappers on top of it but IBC is a standard that's going to be adopted um for this Mass welcoming of chains that's coming whereas ethereum is still like the programable computer where people BL on top of it um using it for liquidity using it as like a super computer um and then obvious he's connecting at it so I think the cosmo theorum narrative and the cosmo theorum vision is coming for today where maybe Cosmos zones don't win but IBC wins which means that Cosmos wins and maybe that ethereum layer like ethereum layer 2 and ethereum D don't really make sense um there's also question about what is a rollup is a is if you're roll on Celestia does that mean that you're a rollup um or is it mean L2 I think that's a Fess debate I think as long as

you etherum some some some capacity um doesn't really matter I think I think that if IBC wins everybody wins I think it's not so much about like I think the end game is just you know and E Ethan Buckman and and Sam Hart were talking about this on a on an episode of I think it was like one of the block Works podcasts recently and they were talking about the end game and like the end game is all chains using IBC and benefiting from this amazing inoperability technology and then you know if I take it even a step further and this is Carell's point of view is that we have this swarm of validators that is validating the state of all these chains and as an application you like there's just you don't know who's validating your your your transaction but it's it's

being added to this massive sort of um swore of State uh this massive state that is secured by the swarm of of validators I kind of see that as the as the endgame where ethereum sort of sits at the bottom layer provides liquidity provides a major part of the security but Cosmos you know through its construction through the construction of the the cosmos stack and been at the Forefront of of modular with the app chain thesis brings the technology and the technical philosophy to build that applications in a way that makes sense I'm 100% with you both that kind of IBC is kind of like the absolutely golden part of Cosmos so I think this is something that kind of the E ecosystem

is lacking ands we see it yeah and I think bad kids always win there was a podcast probably already year year and a half ago also with Ethan on bankless interestingly where kind of he argued his thesis that um ethereum is kind of like this Empire where kind of everything ultimately settles back to ethiop where whereas kind of Cosmos is like this network of city states with um kind of like pockets of value so now in this um Cosmos and ethereum convergence picture how they kind of translate into this metaphor in terms like cities and states um like what yeah in terms of

like having like a giant Empire where basically everything's kind of like inverted pyramid shaped and everything ultimately settles back on Main net where so like that's I would say like the United I the US for example the United States would be ethereum you have bunch of different states which is like yeah like movement is one state of like another Roll Up is another state you all these different states are all rollups and the highways that connect all the different states are is IBC where you need like connectivity between the different states otherwise if you're from California you can't get to New Jersey um if you're from like Oregon you can't get to Florida so that's like the main problem actually toing crypto is like if you look like earlier settler stage when America was first developed

this is probably just my inherit American coming out U but like the there was like really it's really hard to like travel between different states and different regions back in Old America when the build roads out and transportation properly um it was really easy to get between different states which enable people to network easily and meet their family and friends same thing in today's crypto where you have a theem which is like kind of the baren land um it's like it's like the 1700s if you would say um where you have all different states kind of forming but still kind of figuring out what their markets are like like California was a gold state at one point New York was a financial Hub people were still trying to figure out their hubs in that case and then the main thing that's missing is kind of the roads between different

chains or in this case States um which the ibc's positioned to be the best candidate I was like IBC would be the asphalt in this case or the concrete and then like different groups this is getting really in depth to it but like then like you have like L Union polymer and different groups that are actually building the specific Rogues if that makes sense we talked about adoption kind of deps that with of you know hundreds of millions if not billions of people in the very beginning kind of when we talked about um Facebook's motivation to create move so what does the future look like um for for move and ethereum and kind of where when do you think we'll see the first steps that

actually have that sort of mainstream appear uh to plug myself I say our main it um but the the real answer would be like like it depends on what your real apps are like I don't I I think there's no apps in crypto yet we don't have any real apps yet U I'm talking about like we don't have like on social app we don't have anyone that my parents are talking my friends are talking about so we're still very early on that to like I can we can say like all have x d apps xmi TBL but who really cares it's just another like copy pasta of another layer too we're trying to build infrastructure in apps um that M people can use send payments at the speed of light across the world um so I would say like the movie system is poised to U carry that

the the best a because you have backing from two the biggest consumer chains on the planet then be um like the language itself designed for Consumer development um so I would say within like 3 years we could see like a really prominent consumer social app that gets a lot of traction um but in the short term you will see like much much more proliferant secure def5 strategies um compared to like tral er twos and tral ethereum solutions great do you want to share a little bit about yeah sort of short-term and road map for movement when can we expect main net and how can people start building on movement or perhaps getting involved to get involved like go to

Discord check out um like our Builders Community mov La XYZ is a website follow me on Twitter at rushim manche and then we're rolling out a lot of stuff end of this month stting with some announcements coming um on fundraising as well as like test announcement coming out next month so devet po live as well as this test that shortly awesome rushi thanks so much for coming on epicenter and uh expanding our minds on the on the alt the M thesis and why movement is going to the moon for man thanks so much for having me really appreciate the time