Movement & Aptos: Making Security Sexy Again | Rushi Manche & Neil Harounian

Transcript

we look at security I think everyone's over indexing on speed right now U it was like oh paralyze a hot narrative but in reality it's a Lamborghini without breaks um it doesn't matter if you're doing 10,000 TPS if you're getting hacked for 4 half billion dollars every year so I think what we're working on is making security sexy again this episode is brought to you by SE se's V2 upgrade introduces the first high performance parallelized evm already live on public devet M net comes later in Q2 you can follow along with the say Journey on X at Network say is spelled s eii go follow say on X say Network scary stat for you the odds of falling victim to online crimes are one in4 AA provides digital security protection to keep your

personal information passwords online activity and Technology safe from online threats for Empire listeners Aura is offering 14 days free plus up to 55% off an Ora subscription when you visit AA a.com forward SL blockworks terms and conditions apply cite for details you'll hear more about Aura later in the show hey everyone Santi and I have been talking about salana a lot recently and we're excited to have a salana sponsor of Empire marinade marinade is a staking protocol on salana and the only Stak pool that delivers Auto rebalancing me rewards and automatic downside protection with their new protected staking rewards optimize your sole stake with marinade by hitting the link in the

show notes big thanks to Marin we'll talk more about them later in the show this episode is brought to you by mantle mantle is an L2 backed by over a four billion doll treasury obviously one of the largest in the industry they recently launched their airdrop program called the reward station to distribute both pre-sale token allocations or listed tokens to MNT holders who stake their MNT mantle has nailed their Rewards program recently would highly encourage folks to check out the mantle Rewards program at mantle. XYZ for SL rewards station hey everybody welcome back um for a while I've been wanting to do a podcast on on

move um and finally we we're making this happen we have two uh uh of people that I consider kind of the experts to come on and talk about not just technical stuff but more so like what does it actually mean I think most people have heard of different protocols have heard different companies but I think it's important to just peel it back and just understand the origin stories understand like why it's important um so we're going to get it from both perspectives today we have Neil who is the head of ecosystem of adaptas and we have rousi who's the founder of movement which decided to build on top of opas and you know kind of bridge um both evm land and opas so I think it's two very interesting perspectives so why don't we

just dive into it guys welcome to the Pod uh you want to give quick intros for everyone to understand and then we can go from there ohol thanks for having me Santi uh yeah I'll give a quick background and and happy to dive right into it so you know my background has started in the world of finance and and venture capital I started investing in crypto before crypto was cool um I started out trading things like equities and FX and eventually landed on crypto uh but to me crypto was was more than just trading it was uh a global community that just did not exist prior to to its Inception um and so I went really deep in the rabbit hole I met Mo along the way co-founder of abos um and he uh he tried to

convince me to join apos before it even had a name um and I was incredibly skeptical on why we needed another layer one blockchain but after after many months I ultimately joined apos at Inception as part of the founding team and I haven't looked back since um I'm now head of ecosystem laser focused on growth of our community and the move language globally a quick background on Aptos for those that aren't familiar um the origin start at Facebook pre 2022 our team was tasked with creating a seamless money movement Network on a blockchain for billions of people uh that required scalable and upgradeable infrastructure and and that's where people like Avery R CTO

came into play where he spent over 10 years at Facebook building out their infrastructure for things like Instagram fast forward to today we have great supporters like a6z dragonfly multicoin and and many others um we launched our main net in October of 2022 we had 30 projects launch on day one with us and and at that time was an unprecedented accomplishment um even more than that we're 18 months later in order of magnitude higher in terms of our ecosystem size um and this is just the beginning we're we're one of the fastest growing non-even blockchains and and for us uh We've Only Just Begun I can take it from there um I'm rushi

co-founder movement my background wasn't as schol um I was engineering since I was 14 um was always interested in like distribut systems cyber security was early on in a cosmos system actually was like kmm and kind of ethereum slowly enging mostly freelance stuff um I was just in college in early uh school days I met my co-founder at vanderville um where we were just buil taking around AOS system I was building Dex on abdas actually which is one of the protocols that you was refering to KU which is the first he diator on abdas so we were early grass Builders post FTX um we really doubled down Mo thesis like like you touched on I think for me it was when I Su across article that Facebook

was building a program language it really resonated to me because I was buing Cosmos where there was like 10 users and then slowly was like so many hacker attacks it was really difficult to build any kind of consumer Focus application um so take a step back in realizing the technology was Superior the system was Superior um but we wanted to bring to ethereum and Brad Ean Landscapes where we could combine the forces of ethereum and evm liquidity and bring it to a novel technology that Facebook appos and other new based l1s were building um so that's start the movement thesis and led to um where we are today just announc the series a and collaborating closely with app do to bring move adoption together um so maybe I mean we have a mix of listeners we have builders we

have you know people that are interested in investing in the space or just tracking different ecosystems um let's double click on on kind of the Facebook um idea uh when you canvas like the existing like different blockchains I mean you guys came much later than ethereum and some of the other kind of competing altel one so to speak um what makes apos and move unique and special from a from your perspective yeah so for us you know we set out from day one and even pre- day one of appos back at Facebook where you know we knew we needed to build something brand new from from scratch Bottoms Up and not

only the actual blockchain and consensus mechanism but things like the language itself where you know things like solidity to rushi point are riddled with with bugs that allow for exploits and billions of dollars to leave the ecosystem and so that was one of the core things things meta was focused on when building the Libra blockchain and so our team was was part of the original Builders and maintainers of the move language and the Libra blockchain itself to make sure that a we can provide the best possible developer experience but also be the best possible user experience on top of that but rousi as an early Dev would love to hear from your perspective what what brought you to apas and and what made you stay

within this ecosystem yeah easy example I was having it was like account checks in like the evm took forever um I was building I think it was like some kind of social trading app and it took me I think two months to finish all my account checks on right and the otter wanted to charge me 50 Grand and I had like a thousand in my bank account so I was like this is going to end well for me um and I couldn't really scale the project and deploy and me it right um and then when I sum cross move the account checks it took like 20 lines 30 lines I could do it in about 5 10 minutes and then even like auditing costs are pretty much next to zero because it was pretty seamless for that so I think that's like a small story of what got me into the new space

I think like we always thinking about like how do we build this next Consumer map on chain um and like Zuckerberg when using like web two days like he was be able to deploy social app um and just get feedback early in the Harvard days that same social consumer app couldn't exist on web 3 because if you want to launch something like your door room or if you don't have high-profile Engineers it's really difficult to to deploy on Main net get auditing um get all production because it's a very Finance oriented uh culture if you deploy it half it gets hacked the next day you pretty much lose all your consumer base while in web 2 if you get hacked you lose like a few like usernames and no one really cares right um so realizing that security is probably the most important thing in crypto but most

crypto people have been burned constantly like this $50 million a hack every other day and people are kind of used to it but from the outside angle it's really critical to actually adoption right I'm sure touched on this more in the Enterprise angle but like what gets me up and going is like how do I get my family use crypto how do I get Norm use crypto and right now everyone's saying oh it's like gonna get hacked it's like a scam if I put any kind of money on it it's not going to last more than 30 months and to extent they're right right like even like the most Flagship blue ship evm protocols like curve kyber um aren't formally verified even if you publish a new code it's a good risk of getting attacked I think the number is like 92% of all EV

Protocols are at risk of being hacked um because move is formally very which I can get more into as well um and with the move Pro of the DM project pioneered we're actually able to formally verify apps at runtime so there like indal overflows or memory mishaps we're able to essentially put a check of that my analogy is like move it brings a firewall to Smart contracts and web 2 you have firewall to block against viruses which creates a kind of Novel security environment for os's that doesn't exist in web 3 right now um but move is like the first firewall that can essentially come at runtime to stop attack nectors I I think it's I think that's you know for the tech side that everyone comes for the tech of move and and apos but

from what I'm seeing now people are staying not because of not only because of the tech but because of the community itself where you have for the first time in in a while a brand new programming language that brings a brand new ecosystem with it that is more inclusive that wants to help each other and wants to collaborate you know our our goal at outt is we're not here just to build it and let people figure it out on their own we're handson deep in the ecosystem I'm in our New York office where you know I'm looking out at our pod and and I see ecosystem projects sitting alongside our apos Labs team members and so for us it's it's a lot deeper than than just the tech it's the actual Community itself um and we're continuing

to go deeper on how we can be more supportive and more collaborative than others before us and even others after us too yeah I think that's a really good uh perspective rushi particularly on like security drives all um I I think uh we'd all be kidding ourselves if we didn't appreciate that like when you go talk to normal people even institutions or users are like you know come back to me when you know the headlines of hacks stop happening right um that's unfortunate but rushi even a great evangelist um you know every you're kind of always on top every time there's a hack which is every other day rather unfortunately like you're like well this is why I move um I'm curious like um in your both

interactions with like teams that want to build they have an idea what what is stopping them from like they come to the realization which I would assume is obvious that like maybe move is like far easier like your experienc rushi but why wouldn't like why haven't they or or why wouldn't they um today are there particular reasons that like common denominators that you're hearing like hey you know I want to build on maybe salana or maybe ecosystem because of XYZ that you guys can't deliver on I'm curious uh if you've heard of yeah I think like also like playing like the other side here like the kind of word get the words that get thrown out is like move is dead um and like the community e system isn't vibr because

the tvl is still stacking it but I think when we look back at early Sal days right like the first year to Salo wasn't what it was today you didn't have all the K's you didn't have all the like onchain trading all the volume it takes time for to actually mature um I think the main push back especially when we were building early on especially post FDX was like Happ since we both both stock at like 50 million tvl for a while it was really difficult to Garner organic TBL because there was there wasn't much volume in crypto in general right um most l2s besides like arbitrum were really kind of struck struggling um and pretty much all the volume any was on evm SOL are trading at eight bucks so people were like Sal's dead too I think one thing that the movie system can work

on something that we're trying to do is like bring more of like the Mind share to it there isn't much Limelight on new system or wasn't compared to August of 2020 two days everything's kind of focused on salana salana mem coins it's not K's um so I think there's a few answers to question a I think the I hear I hate the word K but like there isn't like the mem coin schillers and Traders talking about it every day um which probably was like originally from cap table because ultimately what it comes down to is like people will show what they have bags in um maybe Neil can touch more on the fundraising side but like obviously the bigger CT Traders didn't get exposure to early app us and speed days which is why they're not constantly Shing it um and then B I would say like like the the vi salana is

like very dgen trading mem coin that brings in organic use cases and new novel use cases um I think that op we and general move chains are still early in t stage where in the first year of Sal you weren't seeing this kind of activity um so think you still need some time mature but I think we're on the way up yeah we're starting to see some of the early signs that we're getting through right I think some of the biggest hurdles are probably just Maxis that don't want to leave their own special safe place but for us once we see a developer get their handson move it's very hard for them to go off of it and I think rushi is a perfect example of this in Coupe too one of the earliest Builders building on move and and here they are a year or two later continuing

that that uh that development on move and so even when you look at the Electric Capital report you're seeing the retention of move developers much higher than solidity or us and we believe that you know once people get their hands on move there's no switching back to to what they were using before no I think that's a really good observation Ry particularly on salana like the apps that were built on salana pre like during the FTX days versus what you see now like Jupiter tensor is like widely different which is also part of the reason why like a lot of people are still stuck on that Vision but it's certainly not like a linear path like they're like gu thing you can think about like okay what was the inflection point for salana or what was maybe Bon maybe a couple other C like Jupiter

tensor I think like backpack like madl like there's like certain key defining moments I think of of of particular chains but when I think of like and why part partially why I want to do this podcast because when I look at you guys obviously I've invested in both of your companies and protocols uh so you know obviously it's there's bias but what I see coming from my experience in defi particularly like you're sweating it even even to your point RI like when you're deploying on even like the most Lindy protocols compound a you know make there's still this element of you just um you just know it's quite risky um and for me that was like the the thing that got me over the line it's like uh when

you hear people say okay I'm going to build on particular chain most of the argument is the users in the liquidity currently exist in evm land I'm like well are you really building for that set of users or are you building for like billions of users because like and what and if you are building for billions like you invert and you say okay where's that going to happen and if you take a five 10 year view then particularly around defi I have much more conviction that move is just a better safer language to deploy a defi application so sort sort of like a matter of time um but yeah you're right like sometimes these things take years um and the attention is elsewhere and you know it maybe to that point like does what are some of the things that

you guys are doing to kind of incentivize Neil you mentioned the Electric Capital report that shows developer activity uh where you guys launched you were farther ahead than perhaps some of the other ecosystems but like you're ultimately competing for attention like how hard is that what are some of the things you guys are trying to do to kind of overcome that resistance so to speak yeah building ecosystems is really really hard work and I have major appreciation for everyone that has done it before because you don't realize it when you're you're you're looking from the outside but it is one of the most difficult things about building uh you know a protocol or successful blockchain but but from us and our side you know

grants and funding that's easy right engineering support from our Bay Area Engineers that that's also you know for us table Stakes but we want to we usually take it a step further right we want to show that our current ecosystem will achieve pmf product Market fit faster on apas than any other protocol out there we want to give an unfair advantage to all of those that are building with us and and on top of the network and so know a good example of this is our January Summit that we had in the Bay Area we flew out 30 of the top projects in our ecosystem from all over the world to come into paloalto for a week come into our office have engineering workshops marketing workshops one-on-one tailored sessions

to build out your road map for 2024 understand where your priorities are and what what you need help with where are the gaps and and we heard their feedback and and one of the things that we did on the last day was we brought together all of those developers and Builders with our investor base we had 50 investors join us for a closing event and we just put everyone in the same room together got them some drinks got them some food and at the end of it we're now sitting several months after that we're seeing multiple teams that were funded specifically from that week and are continuing to grow launch their tokens and uh grow faster than those that you know potentially were not able

to make it and so for us it goes much deeper than just funding or engineering support it's you know we're along alongside you for the entire ride yeah I'm looking over I mean there's a couple things that I want to talk about like Aptos Ascend for instance I think it's pretty interesting I don't know if you guys want to talk about that I mean um if we go back to the early like announcement of like Libra there was a whole ecosystem of pretty impressive partners that kind of committed but then unfortunately that had to wind you know wasn't Unwound but maybe on the institutional side would like to get your perspective um maybe it's toos Ascend or other things but like um if you could just maybe give us a flavor of what type of Institutions are getting interested in

optos yeah so from the institutional side I think we've it's been quite easy for us relatively uh just because we we built this blockchain for billions of users with the tech and infrastructure that people can trust and rely upon right this the same Tech that a celebrity uses to live stream to their millions of followers around the world is the same thing that's you know powering this money movement Network um that that we call apos and so the institutions that we talk to the Enterprises that we talk to they're all they're all familiar with the pedigree and the quality of work that went into building the infrastructure and so for them conversations are easy they they

understand it they're comfortable with it and it's more so how do we think about the vision of where this space is today and where it can be you know next year five years or 10 years from now and and for those institutions they're their laser focused on how can we maximize distribution how can we get higher Topline how can we save on on expenses and so with appos itself it allows them to scale all of their use cases far beyond what ethereum or some of the other blockchains out there can can can offer and so that's that's where apos Ascend came in came into play where we spoke to all the largest financial institutions we heard what their uh what their use cases were what they wanted to

accomplish so we built this Suite on apos uh that targeted those financial institutions that gave them permissions for whe whether it's tokenization real-time settlement what use cases they had but on the permissionless network know something that many have not got gotten comfortable with until today and so we uh we released that two weeks ago with with uh folks like brevan Howard Microsoft uh BCG and South Korea Telco and that that's only the beginning right like our goal is to onboard more and more institutions and we'll come out with more of these use cases over time of why people are finally started uh starting to look at crypto and Deploy on permission list networks and toi's

earlier point it it has a large part to do with move and the safety that comes with uh the the tech that we built yeah rushi maybe I want to get your take on the rationale to kind of build movement and connect both ethereum and you know Aptos uh and kind of how's that Journey been do you ultimately envision like not like a vampire attack but you a lot of users moving over once because because I mean like I'm looking at some stats uh there's just like a our Network like newsletter just came out and like the retention the tvl growth in Aptos

this year has been pretty impressive like it's still you know number-wise like not like as as a more developed like ethereum but you know the the growth in tvl the growth and turn apps has been very encouraging um natively but also from your standpoint like how do you envision connecting these two worlds evm World and and optos and yeah like what because you guys have announced like a number of Partnerships with companies and so like what is the thesis there I think we're generally like not going towards like carrying towards the move Market as much I think we really see like okay you had arbit from optim in last cycle that were the main ethereum sking Solutions and the cycle you'll have a few of Next

Generation rule UPS com ethereum and that's kind of where the Mark is right there's a clear pmf of people who want to stay in ethereum use ethereum liquidity be ethereum online which is completely a meme but it's a go to market strategy right um if I'm an ethereum user I'm often too tribalistic to even leave the current chain um but I'll use like optimism arbitrum because inevitably the tech is better the user experience slightly better um but even look at Bass today like Bas had some successful mem coins but still is like pretty not great user experience the chain got congested um the sequence went down sometimes with inscriptions um so the current L2 scaling Solutions are kind of not even scaling properly so this kind of next wave of ethereum

scaling Solutions focus on okay how do you bring this paralyzed execution environment this High throughput uh execution environment while the leveraging ethereum for liquidity and security so I think that's kind of where our clear pmf and motto is whereas where we believe in ethereum we believe that the current best way for a builder to deploy capital and deploy a defi app is still leveraging a security most of the volume today in defi is z in ethereum arbitrum optimism and any L2 solution and I foresee that staying for the next six to 12 months you can argue that l1's have better user experience and better um kind of end to experience but the fact is that a lot of the volume is happening today on ethereum so when we take a step back and kind of looked at

that we're like there's a few main factors here unfortunately the current state of crypto comes down to wealth creation right um the best tech unfortunately doesn't always win out it matters how can you get people Community get making money how you get teams funded with nov use cases and how you liquidity on chain um and quite frankly like looking back in early after St that was kind of a struggle post FTX because there's little to no liquidity in non-ms and like any Capital deployer didn't feel comfortable deploy anything that wasn't ethereum um I think with the bull market we're seeing that kind of change with salana but what happens in six months when the market takes downturn then those same offices and liquid funds um that didn't feel comfortable deploying on top of like any L1 will still turn to ethereum um so looking at

that we're saying okay we want to provide as much short-term solvency for this ethereum scaling solution l2s can scale today we believe in a paralyzed formally verified environment for apps to deploy um obviously we're doing some we thetive girl tactics with air drop mechanisms and whatnot but um we're kind of seeing that meta especially last few weeks um kind of get oversaturated and we can also delve into that and how we go into to economics but um it is a tricky line because you don't want to uh like air drop your entire Supply and then like your vampire attack like three days later right um but you want to make sure that people are having value creation effects so I think our general go to market is realizing that most Builders today D5 Builders want to live on ethereum they want better user

experience and we're kind of Bridging the Gap of bringing kind of the benefits of appos and move in general and bringing ethereum so I would say generally a more of our comp is like arbitrum optimism L2 Solutions and not competing with the L1 itself have other of you guys looked at um U like user behavior and activity so for instance like a wallet in ethereum say they say the user starts an ethereum or starts another ecosystem he does x amount of transactions in a particular protocol um and then once he moves over no pun intended but once he moves over to opos like what kind of unlock are you seeing like for instance in salana it was very clear right you maybe in ethereum because of fees you were priced out you go to salana you can use Jupiter

DCA and all of a sudden you have a spike and meme activity because all of a sudden you know you don't think about fees right and so it unlock it does a huge unlock particularly for a segment of the market that was priced out um I'm curious uh in the in the different daps because that you're that you have in apos today like are you seeing maybe user feedback or just anecdotally from teams like um you know Adam's a good example he worked at paapi so he's very he knows kind of how evm landine works and then he obviously developed PHA and so uh and I spoke with him but I'm just curious anecdotally like what is the on loock when users move over do they really appreciate do they leave do they stay kind of what what kind of metrics or insights can you

offer there yeah so so we did a deep dive here and what we found was uh usually a user starts out by bridging you know a small amount of of assets from whether it's a you know salana via Wormhole or or non evm a network there or evm from something like layer zero they start with a small amount they test around a few products maybe they start with thala and then go to you know different protocol but what we found was the velocity of transactions are higher and then they always come back and Bridge more funds after their first bridge and so we're seeing not only retention is there but also increased engagement over time to your point there is a massive unlock

when people experience this network for for the first time something that I just started doing is you know when I travel to conferences I I have someone pull up their phone download the Petro wallet and send them an AP and they're Blown Away by how quickly they're able to get the funds in their account and how fast they're able to send it to whoever they want or transact with the network and so for us you know we just want to get people's hands on the network to see for themselves how amazing it is um and so we're seeing that retention continuing to tick up and not only that but engagement overall yeah so like following that thread like from both of your perspective like what is a rest of the you know next 12 to 18 months look like

what are you most focused on in terms of types of applications being built type of initiatives from both of your uh perspective I think from the ethereum line like there's a clear fatigue of the evml twos as like they 50 evml 2os that have no clear user experience difference like using like there whole ZK ZKA evm craze and then people realize there's fundamentally no user experience from ability proof to fraud proof um in the case absence of fraud proofs um so like I think in the past when you look at ethereum scaling it hasn't always been not user focused it's always been like what's ethereum aligned U what does metalic say uh and what does the consensus want to push and then in the reality when the user experience comes down to it users don't care um users

really care about okay how can I have like low gas fees how can I not get hacked um even like security itself isn't really a narrative security is a lot like privacy where it's like everyone agrees it's kind of needed and it's important but it's not sexy right you can't create memes about security and privacy um and like if you look at Price action there's been no security or privacy coins have actually made it so like becomes from like private Market point of view really difficult to um validate the security thesis but I think the way we're approaching it is we recognize that people want better user experience so focusing on the high through capacities um we envision in the world when when you launch bainet that trading is going be very active on our L2 because you have all the user experiences like salana um while

leveraging ethereum for liquidity and security so kind of meshing the both we are fully even compatible so a lot of our go to market is targeting the existing arbitrum optimism Avalanche protocols um that kind of saturated their Chain Looking for their next step and now they can build novel trading experiences we've seen a lot of order books rise from like um that arbitrum having gas fee spikes because like GMX goes through Pro it kind of affects the user experience um so doing fully onchain order books with us um so I think from a D5 point of view we're seeing migration from existing luse to better novel use experiences because Traders ultimately want low gas fees localized fee markets um and I think like there's a whole angle of like using the shared sequencer that we can get into um existing Central size sequencer

pretty broken and honestly flawed um they pretty much tap at 100 GPS so a lot of these games and um even like onchain consumer apps are looking at okay how do I keep up time um but again like these are very small things it's mostly on like how you distribute how you keep value creation um and that's when Tech gets actually actualized yeah from our side we think about three a few different verticals uh right now my focus is on on three of them the first is finance inclusive of Defi and payments the second is AI and the third is social um I'll go into each of them a little bit but on the Finance side you know both our traditional Finance Partners as well as defi have

been taking off quite a bit uh this year uh and will continue to do so but not only that I think payments the original uh you know use case of crypto uh for peer-to-peer payments we still think is uh relatively untouched and so we have a few things in the works that are going to come out this year where we're going to take that to the next level where you think about money movement more broadly where you know it started off uh with something like Swift then ACH then ethereum it's still you know it's still not where it should be and for us you know our our what we're achieving essentially is a dollar can move faster on apos than any other payments rail in the world and so that's something that

we're excited about and a lot of our our partners are and something that we're going to incorporate into Defi and uh and our trafi partners um AI uh we you know once we came out with our announcement that we're working with Microsoft uh we just had an influx of builders that wanted to partner with us or work with us not necessarily looking for funding but wanted to be part of the ecosystem where they think you know AI has a special place and then final is is social just given our teams background coming from from Facebook and Instagram uh we think we know a thing or two about about building social applications and so uh we have a few things coming out Q3 Q4 that we'll touch on on this vertical yeah I kind push asking you a question like I think the question I get

a lot is like how's different Sala right how's SPM how is Sal L1 different than appos L1 and the answer I will give is like security and they're like okay I don't really care about security Now what um so when you're approaching like these institutions or even like your general gr Market what is the three like three bullet point thesis of um like how the move experience is different than SPM experience yeah I mean it's it depends who your audience is right if you're talking about institutions they do care about security a lot right like they love it and so rushi your your tweets are probably circul in all the institutional group chats but you know from uh from what we've seen they really care about security they don't think that solidity will be the endgame for for defi or real world assets on chain

it's just it it doesn't not it doesn't make sense and it's just not feasible and so they love move for that reason when you talk to developers on the other hand what they care about is how do they go from zero to one faster than anywhere else how can they get their product in the hands of millions of users without potential scalability issues or performance issues and so they they've done that really really well where our first hackathon that we ever had there was basically no documentation on apos no documentation on move we had 50 builders in our PA Alto office in May 2022 and these developers turned around within three days building full-fledged applications it's like not possible

anywhere else and so we're starting to see that Amplified now with all of the additional resources and tutorials where they have what they need to go from zero to one on apos faster than anywhere else and they they absolutely love that this episode is brought to you by SE se's belief about the world I think is a good one they believe that the evm is here to stay agree with that they believe that the evm is going to look kind of like what JavaScript ended up looking like in the web 2 world agree with that they also believe that the evm and its current iteration lacks a lot of the performance and scalability that developers need so what SE has done with their V2 upgrade is they just introduced the first high performance parallelized

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you want to get some yield from your soul start staking today with marinade go hit the link in the show notes big thanks to marinade for everything that they've done in salana staking land go check them out go stake your salana with marinade today this episode is brought to you by mantle mantle is an L2 backed by one of the industry's largest treasuries at the time of recording it's valued at 4.4 billion the mantle ecosystem engages in a lot of early stage exciting projects such as Athena and Igan layer and they give out actually the rewards to the mantle Community there are two aird drops I want to tell you about the first one it was with Athena they offered 2.5 billion Athena shards to Holders of their native token MNT so the reward station program distributes these

pre-sale token allocations to MNT holders who stake the tokens the second one they have going on is with myo myo that gives out over 990,000 miso tokens worth about $50,000 today that starts on April 25th runs through May 2nd if you want to check that out you got to stake your MNT and you can check out the reward station at mantle. XYZ reward station big thanks to mantle for sponsoring Empire yeah that's quite interesting um documentation is something that I think a lot of developers complain about moving to another ecosystem but it's great to see that is just really good I want to offer like some interesting stats because unfortunately like a lot

of times people are stuck on certain like it's like oh the ux is terrible I'm like is it like have you used like when's the last time you used like Jupiter it's like uh I don't know like no like feeds are really high I'm like uh okay have you use and so unfortunately you have like two camps of people that are very opinionated but are not using this stuff or just simply stop paying attention and the space moves like incredibly fast so like if you were to like focus on appts maybe last year versus this year radically different just just by virtue of number of apps or metrics so I'm just gonna offer some stuff and then I'll let you guys comment but things had just jumped at me and it was really timely because our Network which is Spencer's like newsletter is like really really good to and it just

came out with the optos mega issue like literally like 15 minutes ago so I'm I'm just kind of reading this live and we'll link to the show notes but like for instance um there's been like um there's been a lot of activity I think you guys did a campaign with starbridge or Stargate um and there's been like over a 1.4 billion of inflows and it really Spike like that was like earlier this year and there's been more inflows and outflows so that you know is a good proxy for like retention to your point um you know 53 of bridge volume has like stayed and there's been 47% outbound so you know there's still net inflows so that's one stat uh stable coin Supply like stable

coins I think are just the killer trojan horse that has crossed 100 million um that's 27% of all tvl that has grown 3x year to date so to speak let me know if this is not accurate I'm just kind of going off of the newsletters keep going I love this uh because I think like a lot of the conversations just like opinions but like let's just put hard numbers on it like I appreciate like it's not a billion maybe that is like locked in or 15 billion it's locked Nan but you know it's not CH change either uh this is really interesting to your point on consumer um there are 20 games set to launch this year and when you look at like the share of users in optos like there's this interesting chart 42% are like interacting with dexus which

kind of makes sense like you know Dex is kind of the first kind of killer landing spot 30% is going to daps um 12% are nfts um um 8 to n% are bridging so maybe they just kind of bridge and didn't do much uh and then the rest is kind of defi but uh what's really intering this this this dab category um a lot of it is like you look at Dow growth from it says your 36k to 80k Dows in three months and a lot of it's just like interacting with like nfts and social or gaming which is you know compelling I'd say um there's some interesting collections on the nft side

um I don't know if you guys have a particular nft collection or artists that are kind of going on there but you know every every ecosystem like salana had madlads uh and then has others but like I don't know if there's like a Hallmark collection in there are yeah there are definitely a couple um I was I was out in uh Dubai for a token 2049 and it was actually awesome to see we we didn't host an event we um we uh we let our community run that and a bunch of nft projects actually came to together uh to host their own Side Event uh which which we attended and those are the same nft Founders by the way that were live with us before mayet even launched so they've been they've been around for you know about two years and these guys are some

of the most dedicated builders in our ecosystem um fiser from APD Domingos or Smith from apos monkeys these These are the guys that are you know day in and day out dedicated to helping expand all of those metrics that you just mentioned and so uh I want thanks for offering the shout out to them I think that's uh they'd be happy to hear that yeah I mean I think like for instance it says here appos counts over 28.8 like 29,000 collections I assume like unique collections out there you can collect and then four million holders that's pretty impressive uh yeah I think this report is actually really good I'm actually running through right now probably it's like the best spor shout out our our

network is like the best uh and they come out with it like here's another one's really interesting Merkel trade I assume it's like a it's a the first ever gamified Perpetual decks yeah okay let's perpetuals are interesting because they actually have not been able to thrive in L1 ethereum because it's just like when you think about the frequency of updating this stuff it's very expensive to do so so like they've gained some traction like in l2s like you know like GMX and a few others you have drift and but like here Merkel trade um it Blends gaming with crypto Forex and commodities trading and it does so in sort of a gamified way and you can earn certain nfts the more interesting stat is it has over 100,000 Traders and has generated

7.8 billion in trading volume in just four months since Inception all the all of that just in the last four months that's that's pretty wild I've seen some crazy my day but you know that's that's that's good stuff I mean yeah I think I it's really the tvl thing because like I like the comparison so it took to reach 30 million TV took Sal 389 days abdos took 505 days that's but when you look at like launch dates abdos hit main or Sal hit main that March 16 2020 and that went into the bull market obviously and that's was around the bull market so like salana launched like Peak bull market area and carry into Blow Market it took 389 days Aptos launched post FTX in like the worst crypto crash of all time and still nearly basically

hit the same um 300 TV 3 million TV miles a month before FTX went down so think think about that we you know Market was was very calm and everything was going well and then a month after mayette went live everything some of that is like pretend like I'm an investor inap I'm paying attention but like there was just impossible to like keep track of everything that's going on um for instance like I'll keep going like Merkel for instance like they Christmas of 2023 here's the interesting the volume of the cumulative position size Delta has been constantly growing so the average trading volume is on any given day between 60 and 100 million and the

cumulative size position Delta has been like 250 million like that's that that's pretty impressive I'm just blown stuff Merkel is uh Merkel is amazing I mean they they were part of our first hackathon in Korea um just about 12 or 13 months ago um they've been building ever since and and you're right I think close to eight billion dollar in in volume and I think that's on a crazy low tvl I think they have less than five million of tvl yeah but I think what people starting to realize is tbll is not the important barometer when you think about like even when you look at something like Unis swap it doesn't matter what you need to look at as a turnover turnover is what generates fees you can have a ton of you can have a ton of tvl

but no trading there's no trading there's no fee so it doesn't really matter look at the efficiency of the capital and that's what you're starting to see in these like higher through blockchains like the velocity of that and the unlock and user activity is really is really what you should be focusing on so so when I look at that it's not so much I don't necessarily care how many users user growth is interesting like how many like wallet growth and retention but it's really like the um the the daily trading volume that's pretty impressive um and so maybe I I mentioned a few protocols here just I just kind of went scrolling down but like I've seen you guys focus a lot in Korea and you just mentioned it so what is it like are you it's it's obviously a

very Deen Market it likes crypto the penetration rate is really high is that the thesis or is there a particular and you just mentioned I guess an Institutional partner right U yeah I think I think it's a mix of few a few things right I think there's High crypto penetration there from retail there's High adoption from Enterprises and then I think the third one is consumer Behavior there you can find virality in Korea faster than most places around the world and so for us it was very intentional when we um when we were starting up and even through our first fund raise you know we made sure that we wanted to have local partners with us from day one and so we have four investors uh that are on our cap table

based in Korea uh hashed is one of them iron gry which is a family office and then Hy and YG which which are the managers for BTS and black bank and for us you know we we wanted to be spread throughout not only through Enterprises institutions but all the way down to Consumer applications behavior and pop culture and K-pop um and we did a really good job of that and you know our our investors did a really amazing job just getting us deeply ingrained in the ecosystem and I think we were there four or five times last year probably on track for the same this year I'm going very deep with the partners there that um that that understand deeply you know some of the use case that can be brought

to life with with web 3 um and not only that I think the the developers there get it too and that's where we found Merkel and a handful of other developers building in our ecosystem there um it's it's definitely a country that's very special to us and um you know we plan on spending a lot more time there yeah rousi uh you've been quiet there for for a minute uh I want to maybe switch it over to you and just um what do you most uh focused on I mean every other day it's sounds like you guys come up with an announcement of just whether it just seems like the ecosystem within movement is ever expanding yeah um what um so like upon law I would assume like what's

the experience from like a user standpoint so say that I originate in ethereum or I originate in somewhere else like what um like offer us maybe some insight into what what is it going to mean for the for the user to go through movement and what are some of the things that they were going to be able to do like day one yeah they had tweet about this like since we announced we haven't seen it inbound since November 2022 the movie system which I'm very excited for the E system in general like um there was like ethereum people who like never even like looked at the non EVMS that reached out say I want to build a move movement and like deployed smart contracts in the last like 72 hours um so our video team is like over there like sweating balls but I think what we've seen is like yes

you have the movie system but really our value captures from the evm system you have the these arbitrum optimism protocols that really can't differentiate themselves because if you're the fifth PR decks on optimism like you're not really accomplishing much there's not much of a different business model there but there's a world where we can develop novel use cases on ethereum without needing to um kind of leave your curring system so we're seeing like fully onchain order books that on optimism weren't possible to be deployed we're actually seeing some move avss now so like we're working I team around formal verification how can we create um essentially Watchtower for M Pools to enable um essentially formication running at run time so I think we're doing a lot of work like you

have like the defi side as well but we're unlocking some new use cases on like ethereum meol security and for verification security because um there G for example use firewall that is raised capital and they're really focused on okay when there are transactions coming into men pool how do we make sure that um there's a way for you to revert transactions in case of the hacker attack coming um if you look at like l2s right now no one's really focused on security no one's really focused on performance they're all doing the same thing of okay how can I incentivize mercenary Capital mercenary developers give them the air drop they want and then they'll probably leave the next chain in about six to 12 months what we're looking at is okay this we're one of the leading chains in space that's actually focused on high throughput

paralyzation a novel user experience compared to other four chains so let's say for example I'm a game orbit drum right now I'm probably not getting any kind of performance I'm relegating all my compete offchain and maybe having nft Marketplace on chain and that's my web three gaming experience which doesn't accomplish much you're not actually doing anything Innovative in blockchain we're now seeing the same games especially in the last 100 hours or so saying okay your environment allows me to do much higher throughput not be burdened by gas fees I can actually do fully on chain gaming um that's pretty exciting on the defi side we're doing a lot of work at analizing Insurance um because in the past Insurance on ethereum has been broken essentially because smart contrib is so high um there's no way to get actual Insurance models to backup investment So

a family office I wasn't comfortable deploying eth on one of these evml 2s because the smart Contra risk was so high if I went to an insurance provider they couldn't give me accurate risk profiles um so there wasn't actually good insurance models to make sense now we actually have accurate risk models based on formally verified applications and we're presenting that to family office and liquid funds I mean look we're cutting down on tax vectors by up up to 90% if you're deploying ethon chain this is the most secure way on ethereum to deploy eth and any other evm asset um you don't have to use a third party Bridge which is another concern of a lot of people looking at other ones you can use our trust minimized Bridge from Main ethereum to ear ler to um so we're actually seeing a lot of capital

cores come from orbit from optimism and other L twos looking at our stack and saying okay the user experience is better if I want to move Capital around it's going to cost me a fraction of what it costs on evm and B is actually risk models that make sense um so I think we have an opportunity to be leader in like the most secure way to deploy eth and defi on ethereum um to the working insurance they work we're doing abs is um and I think that's particular exciting the next four or six weeks I'm going to ask like a pretty basic question I think our listeners would appreciate but just even for my edification like so so when you're sitting at this intersection between evm land and and Aptos you are maybe taking like the weakest chain this this idea

when you're connecting two chains I guess unless you're doing it through IBC but maybe I would love to be enlightened here but like you're still in some capacity like beholden to the limitations or like the issues that have existed in evm land when you're connecting these two worlds right so how do you I don't know if that's true but how do you mitigate like the surface area of attack vectors if you're interacting in these two worlds like are you still aren't you like beholding to like the weakest link here which is evm land yeah so it's a layer to so you have like the movie V execution ethereum for settlement so you don't have um like the formal verification happens at the move Pro level execution level um so when you when you have even smart contract

deployed we clearly Market that it's not going to be as secure not going to be high high performant the way we look at the even contract deployments is as Legacy code um in a perfect world we have every evm app deploying writing move code and then me and Ne will be very happy because some Builders that's not the true case if you're solity developer it costs a lot to hire move developers it costs a lot to hire us developers there's only finite amount so the question is how to BD for the the next four or six weeks um and often times what we found is a coar problem is providing even compatibility where you Market that look um it's a move evm your best performance will be the move side but if you're going to be annoying and be stubborn but we still want to support

you we still support even smart contracts and what we see is actually a turnover where like they'll deploy the even contracts realize their counterparts are doing much better throughput have better security metrics and then themselves will learn move um in onboarding um so I think the main bottom like here would be ethereum element ethereum obviously is slower than A's consens engine ethereum obviously slower thanu and salana we're not marketing that we're going to be faster than them in fact I contend if you want to build like a payments app or if you want to build a next ra gaming app it probably makes sense to use it layer one just better throughput and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying um we're really focused on okay how do we bring liquidity to these move apps and evm apps how do you bring a better user experience to ethereum um the

tradeoffs at ethereum is obviously it's slow it's clunky but it still has so much Financial volume it still has Lindy effect um and people today aren't comfortable leaving ethereum in a six to sevene lens maybe that changes in Apu salana these other blockchains are able to Encompass ethereum as a global settlement layer but for today um ethereum is a global settlement layer so the question is how do we scale that yeah I think when I first met you I asked you the question so like what's the endgame for movement in a world where the say that like we're all kind of baa testers right now but if like the vast majority of users developers partners are going to join in the next 10 years and drive a lot of the activity uh what happens if they just go

direct to because this idea of chain branding is something that I think goes away over time ultimately either through a aggregators if you believe that kind of evolves then no one will really care if you're using ethereum or salana or opos like you just want things to work so like what is the that's at least my view but like what is the endgame for like some like your place and the utility of movement collect connecting these two worlds in a state of the world where most people may just go direct and build yeah on opos well I think you look at like the ethereum and other evm chains right um like you can argue that every evm L1 L2

is a vamp attack on ethereum but that's clearly not in the case right like arbit trying to clear GMX use case optimiz on synthetics so what happens with these kind of l2s and non EVMS is usually it's one or two apps that really make it or break it while ethereum you have the sver apps so I think the way we see it is like Works complimentary to app to us at least for the next three to four years um where if you want to deploy um like a defi app we probably and bring ethereum liquidity it probably makes sense to movement if you wanted to have your own Nova L1 ifu appos in many cases going cross chain is actually um plentiful and we're seeing a lot of that activity happen um so I think in the ter we're not even concerned about that we're really more focused on um

attacking the evm land ethereum land and like many l2s often only have one or two apps that really prove the def experience on that and then in long term we'll see how that plays out right I think like no evm L1 or L2 is Vamp attacked ethereum so far like even BNB has its own virant EOS system and does like the second most evm volume it's not taken away from ethereum um like pain swap is like pretty much a native B&B app so no one in the Ed swap is still actually I just realized pancake swap exists in Aptos and it does like you know has like 13 not the TV is are most important metric but like 14 of TBL anyways go ahead but I think each like like the vision is like I think everyone here's a move is a standard like there's

multiple move l1s multiple move l2s everyone's really adopting move as a framework um and then each kind of L1 L2 has its own app specific use case vertical specific use case maybe in 10 years app is a consumer Focus L1 and with a defile one or maybe it's other the way around around like app the defile one and with consumer L one I think if you look at it from like shortterm point of view and honestly this is one of the frustrations coming into moving system is like I was a college kid and I had to choose between like abis andu and I didn't know which one was better or didn't really know what was going on and they were just like fighting each other which Neil probably want to go into but that was honest a concern right it was like there's there's 10 developers and two

major l1s are competing with the 10 developers and then it led to a lot of issues starting off and probably turned off most of the system whereas I think now I think um after some been really recognizing that's not the way it go about the real villain here is the evm and other next chel ones and I think it's very collaborate environment yeah I's go there go yeah I want to double click on this but I think I think the point that rushu brings up is really important I mean it's think about where we are move is brand new you know relative to things like solidity or even rust and who knows where we'll be in you know 5 10 years from now but I think right now the focus is how do we collaborate to grow move together right

like we're not you know we're not seeing movement as as hey you know we don't want to work with you you're another L1 CH you're another move chain this is you know someone we want to work with to grow the pie together and I think that's why we're you know all of us at AB house are really excited to work with rousi coup movement and bringing move to to Really the masses and and overtake the the I guess the Legacy languages yeah um no it's a good point rousi um I want to also double click on this idea you mentioned like when you come and there's different move based chains um how was that maybe offer some insight into like what was your decision

process of like something that stood out from optos or it stood out from a suie or say uh you know Neil I'm gonna have to mute him G might just like yeah I mean like I think everyone kind of knows like this track history but it was like obviously not the best Vibes if you were looking to come toist it was like a gorilla War um there was exclusivity contracts that would go back and forth there was like Twitter beef um so like from newcomer and like a a college kid I was like what is going on here um and I think that's like the common experience that it was back then it was like okay I can either choose between two fighting systems or build in Sala um and a lot of the builders ended up building on salana um but I think like hopefully that narrative is kind of

dising down bble to kind of me like wash those tensions um hopefully that gets better over the next few months but again like it is competive environment we've seen an evm land it's not new you have like ARB from optims beefing each other you have multiple evm l1s beefing with each other um but again it's early system so I think like salana didn't have like beef when it started off it was just salana new L1 they launched fair price and had a lot of KS make a lot of money so there wasn't like a tribalistic man it was pretty open arms um whereas move kind of had a more fragmented approach which create turned off a lot of people but I think in the last like three months we've seen um a app has kind of stepped up to the play recognized that not a zero something

games hats off to NE and crew um but really like people are coming to the system realizing that hey there's actually unified effort here do we have movement which is kind of this dgen um built by Community effort and focus on ethereum you have appos which has a clear pmf and institutional adoption um and they're actually not competing with each other working together we have some great initiatives we're going to be announcing in a few weeks to really incentivize the builders and from our point of view like we win if move as eem win if there's more app move developers that's more mind sure for us and I think it goes vice versa right if there's more ethereum people especially you've seen the last few weeks Shilling move and talking about move especially the context of movement that brings apus up in general um because there's more appus

move developers coming to system um so I think what we the metric that we look on is Mo move market share the number that we bring internally is like move market share is probably three to 5% right now to count our goal by end of this year is around 10% and the two to threee goal is 15 to 25% market share which is very ambitious and very driven but we can't do that by ourselves and if us after since we keep fighting each other we're never going to accomplish and mve is going to die um so the main metric we're looking at is move market share right now it's like I think 60% evm like 20% SAA and the rest distributed about l1s the the key of the ne touchdown is growing the moood developer market share and then if it whoever boils down it's

like oh you get this developer you get this app it really doesn't matter we're just trying to like increase that percentage that's fair are are you when you when you mentioned those figures are you referencing like the Electric Capital developer report yeah don't don't quote me the numbers just like it's also like I mean like within within this automa like it's ballpark is but it's like less than 5% of all developers today yeah for sure yeah so the main Initiative for any growth Market or any developer relations is increasing that percentage velers because if you're just taking away the three developers from each different move L1 or non evm L1 you're actually not making any forward progress you're just creating vampire attacks and creating um no net new development I think that's what evm kind

of sucked with whereas like the same defi app that's like bridging between the chains and asking which chain would give them more of a grant and then like there wasn't actually much Innovation happening um salana did a better job because they were the only SPM and we saw like net unit Innovation coming and I think move has a chance to really take his next step because there is a security aspect you have the ability verified and high through apps that you can't do any elsewhere um so the main metric that we're looking at internally is how do we grow that percentage Yeah Neil in the conversation you and I were both in uh Dubai and we for me like there's clear narratives or like actual use cases that are going to take off and as much as defi is not sexy it's sort of in the back seat like it is

the thing it Powers everything so um you know I think think the move language is very well suited for that but also stuff like real world assets right I mean I think if you're an institution um you really do value security you really do value kind of the language and and the the ability for internal teams within your organization maybe to like easily deploy and really value um the the security aspect of it um is there anything that like actually just going back to Rush's Point like you would add in terms of your focus when you think about like you have two other competitors to does it compute are you more focused on like how do you how do you think about differentiation in the lens of developers users

um yeah I mean for us it's you exactly what rousi said we want to grow the pie we want more developers getting their hands on move and so to us we're not maybe we're move Maxis a little bit but we're not apos maximalists we're here to to really grow everything together and so that doesn't stop at you know grants or funding or engineering support it goes much much deeper than that like rousi and I rushi and I hosted a happy hour in New York last week I think rushie is out in SF right now he's about to go lace up and play ball with Mo and Avery on Thursday like we were here to like enjoy what we do not you know keep our heads down and try and compete and

you know take incremental wins we're here to we're here to grow grow the space and have fun while we're doing it and so I think you know both apas and movement have embodied that really well together yeah I guess as we think about wrapping of the Pod um one anything else that you guys want to touch on um one question that I have is like I think certain ecosystems um at some point struggle from like certain misconceptions or under or underappreciate in certain way um until they kind of blow up right and and and are in the Limelight I don't know if there's something that you would attribute to or something in particular that you think hasn't really we haven't talked about but you'd like to emphasize

um when you you know we talked obviously a bunch of these protocols that are getting Traction in a very impressive manner um over the last like you know couple months but yeah I don't know if there's anything in particular that you think is specifically underappreciated um or do you want to touch on um as we wrap up the segment yeah I'll say that you know our entire team is is here and recognize that we're not going to be successful unless our ecosystem is successful and so you'll find that anybody that you reach out to appos is ready and available to help you get to where you need to be whether you're in pal Alto for the weekend and you want to come hang out at the office or if you're in New York and you want a

spot to work at it for the next couple of weeks we almost never say no right like ask us the most ridiculous asks and we'll probably say yes we're we're here to see developers and users succeed and so that's that's our that's our Focus now yeah I think for our side something we talked about is like this year's and last year is like part of the whole mod thesis experimentation ethereum right um in the past it was like use etherum L1 maybe use L2 and that's pretty much it um but now with the rise of Da layers and different execution environments we're finally seeing the experimentation on ethereum that we wanted for a while um and people are like it's kind of like short for where like people who never

would touch these Technologies are not opening up to it because it's ethereum aligned right it's using ethereum has some capacity so almost like alignment is a marketing strategy where you're able to penetrate new markets um and have experimentation of users like people are trying move apps on ethereum that wouldn't go to L1 traditionally um and that's kind of the way we're focusing on right like we want experimentation infrastructure level we want people launch their own custom move L move l2s and have be part of the stack we believe that like um like you want essentially Network and move chains where it's not just going to be build R L2 otherwise screw office like you can have your custom block space run your own nodes run your own independent Sovereign environment because that's what it Market values the market prices

apti much higher than prices application which is unfortunate truth so the question is okay how can we Empower those Builders enable them to launch own chains and still incentivize the foundation um so that's why we're working on a few big high-profile candidates um but in general it's just like I think in the past it was like touched on very tribalistic and now over the next few weeks and months we really want to democratize aess to move in the software um Beyond just the traditional Vector that oh it's Silicon Valley soon Thai thing it's for the People by the people with the people r on that point because I think like modularity is a thing that is like the integrative versus modular kind of approach is something that we didn't touch on but now that you bring it up about so what you're saying is like developers might

get the opportunity to use like move move based like develop a chain that uses move as a programming language for execution all the benefits of like paralyzation and high through and whatnot you're still you use da I know Celestia or Ian da or whatever and then you use maybe even ethereum for settlement like you could use all those three different components yeah we really focus execution L compatibility so in the past you op stack arbitrum stack uh cdk whatever Ro framework get whatever deer but everyone's like build whatever then use the evm which often is a ball NE for smart contract development we're uniquely focused executioner where you can use our VM um with even compatibility you can use whatever World framework use whatever dealer and have your custom block space um which we

found through like a Builders and um through research is that the high-profile teams they really want their own custom chains because that's what Market demands um you're able to demand a much higher valuation and you'll be much more attractive in private markets if you have your own infrastructure stack um so we actually have like four Flagship chains Henry which is a consumer Focus chain kind of like um a honey on chain we have gaming which is like a coin market cap incubated gaming chain and two other PR profile candidates we're announcing next few weeks um they're launching own custom environments um with move using whatever Ro framework op stack orig stack whatever using whatever deer um and we have a Unique Edge of the market where we're uniquely FOC execution on ethereum and everyone else comp on anything else that's pretty novel yeah

was really exciting me I think ultimately the the takeaway for me is once people it seems that it's clicking once people start using it uh and the user experience actually pretty good it's starting to show up in the apps uh and the retention numbers and the growth in TBL in the volume that is posted daily um so I think that's really encouraging and ultimately I think like it's very synergistic what you guys are doing just allowing people to just be that Trojan Horse be that gateway to appreciate uh move if even if you have resistance right you're sort of like an intermediate step to ultimately then just kind of appreciate all the all the good stuff of of move as a programming language um this been good discussion guys any any parting thoughts anything else you want to focus on before we go get your hands on move get your hands

on apps in the future get your hands on movement uh come hang out in New York the Bay Area Korea we're having our uh our Ops conference the appos experience in Korea in Soul in September so uh come by if you want a free ticket just DM me and I got you I think for us is like we look at security I think everyone's over indexing speed right now U it was like oh paralyze a hot narrative but in reality it's a Lamborghini without breaks um it doesn't matter if you're doing 10,000 TPS if you're getting hacked for four and half billion dollars every year um so I think what we're working on is making security sexy again hello there's nothing that I could say that would beat that analogy uh we

should have just started there guys Lamborghini Lamborghini without breaks uh really good uh well guys thanks so much for coming on I I hope this people can tune into this podcast and make it like they they want to learn about move they want to learn about the different like development approaches and as as a starter pack like this hopefully can be it we'll link a bunch of the resources where to find you both of you guys are hiring there's a lot of you know grants potentially for Builders and whatnot so yeah I think this been a good discussion guys thanks much for for coming on and um yeah let's uh let's get moving thanks really appreciate it thanks deal all right you heard about say a couple times just want to give them one last Shout out big thanks to se for

sponsoring this episode of Empire there are a ton of reasons to build on say if you want to get in touch with them you can reach out to me I'll put you in touch directly with the team you can also get in touch with them on Twitter at say Network you can follow the journey at say Network they are currently live they've got sav2 on public devet today main net goes live later in Q2 really excited to have SE sponsoring and partnering with us on this episode of Empire [Music]