Modularism Not Maximalism Live Stream 🧱

Transcript

all right GM GM welcome we've got a panel full of Builders here we've got um some of the best in the modular space GM Rob Robbie rollup repping the rollup hi how you doing buddy dude it's always good to just like think with people like I I just I love learning with people in the space and when we can collectively put our minds together and come up with something that's just that's great bigger and brighter um I feel like I learn a lot and benefit a lot and I hope everyone uh here and everyone who's watching does as well um so yeah I see a lot of familiar faces a lot of new faces and uh I'm stoked to get into it this is this is a new format for us we're not a we're not

a Twitter space anymore we've gone we're expanding we're branching into New Horizon so it feels good we want to start off with uh with a round of intros let's do it let's start with theode and then we'll go to Veronica then David hear me it's pretty choppy maybe okay let's move over to to Veronica and C no maybe change your audio and then uh

we'll come back I think it might be the airpod I've had this problem before um but yeah hey guys my name is Veronica I am a BD lead at Eclipse we recently went live on testet we are a salon of virtual machine layer 2 that settles on eth nice and David hey guys I'm David myall I do product research at fuel labs and fuel Labs we are building a modular execution layer uh aiming to be the fastest modular execution layer and just kind of a whole new kind of operating system for rollups so excited to be joining all these awesome other projects here nice welcome welcome and Carell then Cooper hey guys I'm Carell founder of

Union we do fully trust us decentralized and Sovereign interoperability all around light clients and zero knowledge proofs hey great to meet everyone and co-founder of movement Labs modularizing the move language and making it accessible to any blockchain environment and last but not least Vaz welcome just got you the streamyard link a little late no worries at all guys pleasure to be here um I'm Vios from the igen layer team I run product and growth for Ian da um and yeah super excited to be here awesome well thanks guys and I think I hope I hope Cote comes back his

audio was a bit janky but while it's just us here um I just want to give you guys a quick a quick story to start this off that is that Rob and I have been doing defi education around crypto around yield farming around blockchains all this stuff for three years but this year at ECC I faded modular blockchain Summit modular Summit in favor of an L2 day now looking back on it in December of 2023 I feel like an absolute idiot so I feel like we're still quite early to this trend uh seeing that kind of more and more people are getting you know excited about it um you know and it's to the Forefront of the space so I would love to hear um from at least a few of you of what modularis and not maximalism

really means in the state of crypto and defi as it is today and then this can kind of lay the foundation for more of the technical and collaborative conversations that we can have for the next hour and a bit um so why don't I start with Cooper and then we'll go to Veronica and then to Cod and give them a chance to come back on with the audio yeah absolutely so I was one of the first build ERS within the move ecosystem and one of the large pain points that I felt is that despite having a really performant and secure language we were struggling to see adoption lack of liquidity lack of users lack of projects being built because of the way that move chains had come to

Market competing head-to-head with existing networks so to me modularity not maximalism really points to the ability for f to pick whatever tech stocks they want to build with and then not be limited by what they are building with so to really be able to break out of those Frameworks and and put together things that otherwise might not be possible while maintaining alignment with the existing user bases liquidity bases that are within web 3 yeah so kind of like from my end modularis not maximalism at least for Eclipse right is we are looking to bring the Best of Both Worlds from the

ethereum side and salana side as we know the salana virtual machine with parallel execution local fewe markets all of the benefits to it right kind of points to it being the best execution environment whilst you know the ethereum environment is has a lot of distinctive liquidity users and yeah so kind of being able to bridge the Both Worlds kind of combining this aspect of modularity instead of pushing for just one is where really I see like the meaning behind monism not maximalism for our case at least I guess to kind of flip this on its head I'd argue that like monolithic

chains are almost inherently like Drive some form of maximalism because when you kind of live on these monolithic chains like your your chain has to kind of compete on all different aspects and by being uh by by being modular chains it lets us kind of uh break down the break down the playing field into a number of different uh different ways that we can compete execution layers can compete directly against other execution layers da layers against other da layers you know money like assets can compete against money like assets more like governance tokens can compete against governance tokens like it you break down the sack into these little pieces and then all of a sudden it's not really a

religion anymore it becomes uh technical debate or economic debates things like that V I saw you shaking your head as well yeah um I can't help but agree with most of the team right the igen the igen ethos has always been about um making sure you know uh the ability to innovate is permissionless open Innovation so we're very much aligned to that um there's just two things that worries me whenever we deal with these circumstances which is like the fragment ation of liquidity which I think Cooper touched on and the fragmentation of ecosystems which I think everyone touched on right so what happens when we

move from this like monolithic stack to a modular stack is like as you split out each of the modules uh the amount of Economic Security also sometimes can fragment doesn't necessarily have to but sometimes can fragment between each of these modules right and so then you end up with like the you know the weakest link in the chain problem and so the attack vector is no longer you know the the aggregate security of you know the whole monolithic stack but rather the individual security of each module so that's where the I layer thesis kind of fits in as well to this where hey let's continue to retain the benefits of like programmable Innovation programmable modularity but also retain the benefits

of ecosystems liquidity and make sure like where things don't need to fragment they don't to some extent right so that's kind of again still aligned to this thesis but some stipulations that we like to look at from yeah you for sure yeah vs has a really good point there in which as a lot of different teams are creating a lot of different modular Solutions if we let that play out for a long period of time time you have a lot of mangled Stacks in terms of how they might be able to communicate with one another and so I think that that could be a potential point for building creating methods that are going to enable greater

composability only between different layer tws but more so between the Frameworks in which people are building modular blockchains with and that's an area where think at movement and Eclipse we have a really interesting opportunity in as we are rolling out different execution environments to different networks it enables some level of composability and communication at the VM level between these different environments and so excited to share that we're workshopping some pretty interesting ideas with some really awesome folks really excited to share more next year um yeah can I can you hear me yeah welcome

brother uh I think um modellismo it well and try out lots of different ways to do it for example the execution layer you can make your own new VM or modify an existing VM and not need to build consensus you can just you can simply uh put a thin wrapper around it using ABCI and try it out with roll kit you can ship MVPs on a centralized sequencer very quickly uh and then um you know get security from a shared da layer um pay less for security innovate more

frequently um and if there is fragmentation then that is through the will of the users you can easily have one VM which has enough capacity to run all the apps the users want and if that's what people want then they're going to put all their liquidity in the same place if that's not what they want then you will see fragmentation but it's through the will of the market ultimately and Carol speak about fragmentation and modularity you're uh well versed in this in this domain yeah I actually think security wise like I agree with fias but I think in general people building in the space are very obsessed with security formal white papers and showing that networks

are secure under certain conditions and having been in crypto for almost a decade now something we kind of suck at is the ux portion so I actually think the highest risk is the liquidity fragmentation losing the Lego blocks property that that one Global VM has thing is we also lose that with transaction paralyzation basically that's kind of a very localized modularity but still like technically separate State at the time of transaction execution um so I think for the modular ecosystem to really prove its value it's a liquidity fragmentation that needs to be properly solved and the ti we do like interop and and I think that's kind of the next hardest issue to solve we can all imagine like new VMS and iterating on that but really

building cohesive products between these different l2s and different execution environments I think that's going to be the hardest one but also the coolest one and probably what has the most potential in kind of the growing market for me at least like a thousand l2s where basically every single product is its own fully fledged app with its execution it's like this cool future they want to see crypto evolve to and I think that's going to perform incredibly well in the next decades yeah one thing that's very exciting for so long we've been entrenched in one single Tech stack but for the first time we're seeing the separation of different layers within the blockchain stock and a lot of teams building really creative really powerful solutions for Builders to be able to

augment and leverage them so we really are I think about to enter a Renaissance of blockchain development not only on the smart contract level with different virtual machines alt VMS being financially and commercially viable for the first time but additionally in that very blockchain infrastructure structure space in which I think we're going to see different games different consumer applications build things in different ways than we've seen historically existing projects be built primarily within defi so incredibly excited what the future holds and what all of the folks here are making possible yeah kind of noticed oh go ahead nope all you did cool cool I was gonna say I've noticed a bit of a a

shift I think in kind of the discussions and the focus this year um I I think for most of the history of blockchain most the focus has been on like the on the consensus layer it's kind of like you know proof of work proof of stake kind of with rollups it was figuring out like kind of the fra proofs C proofs everything like that and now we're seeing the shift to the the execution layer kind of the user pH layer so everything from you know building out the actual execution layers to you know the things like account abstractions obviously gotten a ton of attention uh we're kind of I think focusing Less on like what's the underlying mechanics of the blockchain because we' kind of figured a lot of that out and now we get to kind of focus on like what is the what is the platform that applications

get built upon and how can we use it to make more powerful apps and better user experiences and I think like again I feel like we're just starting to like really shift like the spotlight onto this and I think that's going to be like a big explosion I mean again I think just the the projects uh talking on this call today is like an example of this like growth of focus on this part of the stack what's exciting is that we could legitimately create a modular rollup with multiple teams on the panel right now and have the stack actually built like just by everybody here it's it's quite funny um carella made a good point with regards to paralyzation and that's been a really a kind of Hot Topic I guess as salana has increased in price

and in mind share this idea of like their their their paralyzed execution and then you got like SE and monad and and then of course you know the VMS that we have here we have uh movement and uh and Veronica with eclipse and David and fuel um and so I kind of want to come back to to this kind of paralyzed execution um conversation um after we kind of establish what's I I guess been more in in our face in the news and kind of coming about which is the overall uh da race um e theum has basically shifted its its road map from like a computational focused road map more or less towards like a da road map so uh ethereum as a DA layer for for

settlement is kind of this idea of this base boosted rollup sting but here we have Celestia and igen ler kind of coming in and bringing in 100x lower transactions or at least you know it's yet to be seen but that's the expectation so um let's start with uh with vs I'm I'm curious about your thoughts on uh this this kind of data availability race U kind of what this looks like what kind of ux users can expect and then um once we hear from you and and code we'll kind of tie it back into some of this paralyzed execution and kind of VM layer yeah for sure um you know there's uh there's been a lot of ongoing

initiatives from the ethereum foundation in terms of improving data availability in and of itself right uh Proto dunk sharding 4844 so um we're really excited for those existing initiatives to go go forward um but you know as you look at the um as you look at the amount of like uh you know the amount of data that's being proposed that's being added to these blocks it's possible that um that's not enough for rollups uh to really be cost efficient when it comes to just 4844 it's possible that um you know a single rollup might be able to eat up that entire um data bandwidth and so you know other rollups are still left competing for Block

space uh and so we've kind of defined uh in in you know sort of simple terms just like a Cate categorize categorization of uh da layers where there's in protocol da which is writing directly to ethereum L1 and there's out of protocol da which is literally everything else Ian uh Celestia uh Avil Etc right and in protocol da is just you're inheriting maximum ethereum security you're inheriting the full ethereum inv validator set and you know you're eating the additional cost of writing to the L1 which you know you can see all these row UPS teams are spending uh a great amount of uh resources towards um you know just

writing to the L1 or you're going to see alternative da layers like us which are all out of protocol Das um that you know have their own ecosystems for us that's based on the ethereum validator set and the ethereum restake for Celestia it's their it's their ecosystem U their own chain right data availability blockchain which I'll let Ceno speak on um so we're super excited that you know there's a constant game to increase the throughput limitations of this base um reduce costs for these rollups and really um again we look at it as almost a public utility for these rollups if the endgame of blockchains is through rollup scaling then these rollups are going to

need um what effectively a you know really high throughput um low latency low cost data availability solution and that's kind of where you see the entire landscape going see that um sure yeah um uh like you said um ethereum is trying to add its own da layer it's trying to scale up its own da and they want to do this using really similar technology to what Celestia has if you look into dank sharting you'll see a lot of similarities it it uses eraser coding and data availability sampling to uh verify the Avail availability of blobs

for use and rollups and uh I think you know while it may be some time away uh I'm certainly confident in ethereum's ability to eventually ship this and once ethereum ships this the da race is pretty much over I mean you could you could scale that technology up to as much throughput as you need theoretically we know because we we've tried it we we have the same technology we've tested it out with much larger block sizes than what's currently on our main net um and for that reason I think that serving ethereum l2s is kind of a side quest for Celestia uh and we expect the da race to be a short-term competition for serving ethereum l2s which is not the main

purpose of what Celestia is Celestia wants to have its own ecosystem Celestia wants to have its own rollups uh called Sovereign rollups you can imagine an ecosystem that looks a little bit like Cosmos where you have sort of application specific chains that don't talk to One settlement layer but talk to each other uh in a trust minimized way and I would say that's the long-term vision of where Celestia wants to be and uh serving the ethal 2s is is something that we can do really well right now um but it's not the only thing we can do um actually a quick question in regards to that c node are you um does that include if uh does that depend on a

certain factor of like how much the each node is storing in terms of like data replication across nodes um because I think that's one of the limiting factors to like the throughput scaling right is like how much how much um you know of the sh how much of the shards is each node storing um I I'm familiar that ethereum thus far has full node replication do you know what the process will be going forward on that uh full node replication do you mean right now or with 4844 or with with future da right now but uh yeah what's the what's kind of the strategy going forward uh well I'm not working on ethereum uh but I could try to explain

how I think it works I think um they're probably going to with 4844 all the full nodes are probably going to need to uh manually download all that blob space once there's dank sharting validators so the consensus participants won't need to have all the blob space they will sample from uh a builder a a larger node which does have all the blobs um there's also some designs where um nobody has all the blobs and you have way more blob space per block than any one node could individually have and then you just have lots of people who hold a chunk of it and then they vote based on the perceived availability of data through sampling uh but these are kind of out

there kind of far out for everyone kind of just very theoretical but uh the idea is maybe somewhere in the distant future you'd have more bandwidth than any one node could supply to the network that makes sense and then just for both of you prior to jumping into the VM CU I'm I'm getting on this we're going to build ourselves a modular rollup by the end of this call conversation here um but is is is the narrative uh true of these lower costs how how much of an order of magnitude why are the costs s uh significantly lower um for using a Al alternative da layer I know that you guys both kind of

touched on both these aspects but just to kind of confirm um the why and the how um as well as the order of magnitude of change for costs on ethereum l2s and other other settlement layer based l2s using Al alternative da yeah I think C no touched on this but um you know some of the Primitives used in dog sharting are like uh across most of the data availability Solutions and uh similar to Celestia we're at Igan da we're also using you know kcg um kcg multi- reveal commits we're using charting as well so it's very similar to the 484 for for design um and uh we're having donrad come in and advise as we

need on our uh design principles as well um and yeah it it really comes down to um with Igan layer the you know the shared security costs um of the platform are distributed across all the all the services um which is you know the igen layer ecosystem and the abss that are supported but then um you know the actual like distributed uh the you know the computation costs and the distributed um you know Savings of across all the nodes that we're able to achieve mainly because um on igen da nodes only store one nth the data or at most two over n of the amount of data and being the number of operators um and

then you know uh We've designed some anti- congestion pricing models so that um you know rollups can have certain ways to hedge against pricing um and have a lot more like fixed pricing over longer periods so um just protecting against gas surges things like that so you know just a couple of different ways of how we're looking at um building just more efficient pricing models cheers thanks um and then yeah I I saw a post today from Manta with regards to Celestia's um cost reduction on the chart and it was significantly lower like a like that's been advertised order of magnitude of yeah 100 times so

excited to see these be put together with some of the VM friends that we have um on the on the stage so Veronica you've been you've been quiet I'd like to hear uh kind of some of the trade-offs that um come with uh using uh svm versus evm um why you're bullish uh well I guess you kind of have to be on local fee markets um and your thoughts uh with regards to building modular using SPM yeah for sure can kind of dive into why we decided to go with the svm right so currently in the crypto space there's a lot of ethereum rollups and one of the things that they are really constrained to is ethereum and kind of like the global fee markets that come

with that so what I mean is that a lot of rollups were built on ethereum because they were looking to decrease fees increase speed Etc but they're still constrained to ethereum itself as the layer one given the way the virtual machine is built out so um the evm itself is single threaded which means that transactions have to be uh processed one after the other and that kind of inherently is something that isn't really the most scalable so in comparison with the salana virtual machine um parallel transactions execution is one of the main things there so with that right you already get a much faster transactions and then local fee markets versus global fee market so in the ethereum realm when let's say there's like a mass nft Mt

something that you'll no is as more people start using ethereum is or even any of the rollups is that fees do end up spiking a lot and I was trying to Min an nft last week and it it was a pretty bad experience honestly um but you know kind of like with the SW virtual machine right when anybody does a drop or something where transaction spikes it happens in its own like localized space so that other adaps that are running alongside it don't run into the same inherent problem so with that that's why we kind of decided to go along with the Sal a virtual machine and we believe that it's the best execution and environment out there fast very very fast love it CP do you w to kind of

build on top of uh some of the what we've heard from the da layers and a little bit more about parallel execution in the VM world that you guys have built that move yeah absolutely as relates to local fee markets I I think that's a very relevant conversation I'd have right now as well with the script inscriptions happening lately across different blockchain networks some of them being ground to a halt myself I was looking to do some trading and then I'm hit with gas fees and hundreds of dollars so can't have those local fee markets soon enough and really excited to be bringing those with the move language as well to share a little bit about move and its story it was originally conceived at Facebook with the DM Libra project they were building

a payments blockchain and developed a smart contract language that' be native to web 3 which their big Tech their big Finance friends would feel comfortable putting lots of sensitive data and hundreds of millions of dollars on chain where with solidity you have a very wide array of a very large surface area of attack vectors within the code base and so it created a language where objects are much more akin to physical objects in real life so passing an object from one hand to another versus passing an object it kind of appears and then is in a new place uh so it really helps on the safeguarding of assets no reentrancy attacks as well as enables for greater

performance in parallel processing native to the language itself as well so learning from solidity rust making some optimizations and then being this blockchain native programming language so the Libra DM project got shut down by the government didn't want to you know lots of things going on there and what was really cool is that it then came to Market in web 3 in a more permissionless way so that people could openly build with move learn move build move smart contracts applications and launch them in the apds and theu blockchains and the next generation of move that we're going to see here is its ability to be developed with anywhere and everywhere

so move not just being on any one chain but being anywhere everywhere here and so we're quite excited as well here to be working with a lot of the folks Within These calls and the accomplishment that mission to really democratize move as much as we can and bring it to Market in a web three native way hell yeah join the movement um all right last part of of this panel um and then we're going to move back to more open conversation um Carell how does how does Union um kind of uh come into the modular stack and facilitate the kind of seamless integration of these components um together but also just you know for

different uh stacks and blockchains building with these uh various uh da layers in different VMS underneath um yeah I think was alluding a little bit to the biggest issue being fragmentation I think like we've been saying like if this party were to build their own rollup together we probably scope out the ecosystem based on how easy it would be for us to acquire users right like given that it has a DA available given we can pick an execution environment how easily can we get in liquidity and so for a nent ecosystem like Celestia for example it's going to be massively important that new rollups launching get access to this liquidity as easy as possible right right now means you kind of need to wait

in queue for Wormhole or XLR layer zero to support you um and so kind of like a in a choke hold liquidity wise they own all the assets on your road up so even though you have your own consensus your Sovereign rollup you're still uh Shackled to them uh as well as that when new rollups spawn you might not be in the same interoperability cluster so with Union what we really focus on is basically having a trustless permissionless sovereign protocol that can ensure that for this future where we have thousands of l2s uh we can spawn these new connections as easy as you set up a new server right and you access this wider liquidity Network and make sure that this is really web three

native to me like it's very nice that we all do these research articles about how save a certain da is but if we then choose to connect these islands of the centralization with centralized service providers then the same thing that happened to DM is going to happen to the modular ecosystem uh the government is going to attack these interoperability protocols uh as those are the main points of weakness so for us to really make sure that like web 3 uh remains kind of aligned with the original ethos all parts of the modular Tech need to be permissionless decentralized and sof um and for me that's all about provability ZK Tech light clients and kind of really tying that to core fundamentals of the

stack and using that as the layer Carol I got a a quick followup um and this one goes out to you and and maybe for uh C Corp as well or C note as well which is that we've heard sovereignty quite a bit kind of in the last like you know 30 minutes but as well just emerging a little bit more as we talk about some of these some of these discussions um like what does sovereignty mean to you and how does it relate to modularity yeah so to me sovereignty really means that you own your own stack and which means that in the case of L2 Builders they decide the execution environment and the direction of the execution environment itself for l2s it can mean that they're not tied to a new

Fort Choice rule right if you're settling on ethereum and ethereum goes into a wildly different direction that you disagree with you have the ability to settle differently and basically control your own Fork Choice Ro and for interrupt what this means is that even if you have all of these Sovereign parts of the stack the buttons that are used to interpret the protocol the Oracle data feeds the uh assets themselves and how they're purch unlocked aren't being controlled from the outside as well and as like an L2 Island itself you do have control of the direction here too oh yeah I would say um sovereignty is kind of like a cosmos chain you know

any individual Cosmos chain can hard Fork itself and uh the way that it currently works with IBC that wouldn't break the bridge because it kind of just trust the validators and so you know osmosis could upgrade and uh the bridges would all still work uh where he is with the etherium l2s um assuming they were idealized and they got rid of their governance and their upgradeability they would they are forced to hard fork with the Bas layer and they can't hard Fork themselves kind of like immutable apps on ethereum can't hard Fork away from L1 I mean you know obviously everything is social consensus so like in a really extreme C circumstance they could but

it's kind of ridiculous and wouldn't really actually happen um but uh being able to hard Fork some people want that uh otherwise Cosmos wouldn't exist and uh clearly there is a desire for some apps to be Sovereign uh not the best choice for everything a lot of things benefit a lot from uh not being Sovereign and being part of a larger ecosystem but uh some things do some things should be there's there's a lot of interesting possibilities for apps that are sovereign for example they can do things like enshrine the Oracle um and remove Oracle risk uh in a way that is much safer than on when it runs as a smart contract on another

chain um and uh yeah enshrinement and security with through client diversity becomes possible in a way that it isn't uh on regular apps um and so make the design space possible uh allow people to to try out new things one thing I think that's going to be really interesting to that the the kind of the modular architecture enables is chains that want to transition in and out of sovereignty um we've seen kind of recently we've seen a few chains kind of go away from sovereignty we've seen a few l1s become ethereum l2s I think of like cell um blanking on the other ones so those ones you could say are probably

kind of more for like probably economic and reasons that they want to kind of join the ethereum ecosystem but the uh the maker Dow post a few months back from run you know obviously it was just a blog post this wasn't something that's actually happened but it was an example of u a project that's you know kind of been very tied to the you know IM mutable ethereum ecosystem but has reached such scale that they're probably you know feel that uh it makes sense to kind of move towards full sovereignty being a fully Sovereign chain which is why run kind of made this uh this proposal about a a kind of makeer Dow chain and uh you know that that's something that'd be very difficult to do I think definitely would have been very difficult to do in the past but I think

in the future it'll become very easy for kind of modular chains you know because they're choosing their their settlement layer their execution layer um their their da layer they can kind of just choose to make a change to a piece of that setup and kind of move from being a you know ethereum settled rollup into a fully Sovereign you know a sovereign last year rollup or something along those lines um I think I'm going to be really excited to see like the first major project that makes that transition because I think that's going to like be a really interesting uh kind of example case yeah I think it's uh super interesting how the sovereignty um kind of Playbook has also manifested itself in the ethereum ecosystem it's kind of

like spurned the demand from the etherum ecosystem to like adapt and um kind of build a more permissionless future that's kind of where we we think of it as aen where you know we are seeing more and more projects want to see an expanded design space like cention and you know a more modular design space that enables them to um uh like he said you know hard Fork if that's a request that they have enshrine the Oracle um client diversity these are all really good points um I think the thing about uh thing about you know relying on the ethereum ecosystem also has to do with like Ben benefiting as I mentioned earlier from like this aggregated Economic Security right and the L the largest developer

ecosystem right those are things that like are really hard to um are really hard to like transition away from and then still tap back into that ecosystem so when it comes to a project like cell like David mentioned um you know there there are some economic incentives at play for sure but at the same time a lot of that underpinning comes from the economic security of the application right and proof of stake systems where security is determined on token price and market cap um not having your entire security built on that and being able to leverage the ethereum restak uh Economic Security as well as the validator set can really assist a lot of these alt L ones as they want to enable a more Sovereign or permissionless future but

at the same time be tied to a larger economic security base and ecosystem right yeah it brings me to to the point of kind of a perhaps a fear of mine and many other strong ethereum Believers or um you know you could even call them Maxis which is kind of why we're here today to kind of break the chains of maximalism which is that with these with the with the uh upcoming um growth of of alternative VMS like like the three that we have today as well as data availability the two that we have today you start to wonder where does ethereum's role even come in in the modu blockchain space for me it's going to be hard to refute that ethereum will ever

change and not be the best settlement layer perhaps one or two kind of can come close but to me just based on the validator set upcoming uh improvements with DVT the overall expansion of decentralization the ease of becoming a solo Staker as well as just the General Security model it's tough to kind of uh I think argue that ethereum will lose as a settlement layer but this is an open question and I think that we can have a lot of kind of conversation here um which is is the is the uh prevalence of modular blockchains over the coming years is it a detriment in the short term to ethereum but beneficial long term is it beneficial for all um kind of what are your thoughts with regards to uh the modular blockchain uh kind of growth specifically with da and VM

taking those responsibilities if you will from ethereum thus uring value in different areas um kind of does this strengthen ethereum's position as the long-term settlement layer is it a threat uh kind of how are you guys viewing this uh and thinking about it from the lens of sovereignty and as well as from the lens of building your own uh chains and yeah we'll start with Coupe because he looks ready to pounce and then we'll just go around yeah for sure I think you bring up a lot of great points Andy where I would in my initial thoughts are that shortterm it's very good longterm will be up in the air that ethereum evm and the solidity smart contract language were all three such great leaps forward for their time like trying to hit a

bullseye from thousands of miles away and then as markets grow right as the web 3 ecosystem and mind share grows as well the targets also moving so it's it's near impossible to land the first time and thus we see scaling Solutions such as modularity coming to light that like fees oh my gosh I I it's very cumbersome right now to pay for anything on ethereum I can't imagine what it would be like if we onboard another billion users using this chain right now and so these Solutions in order to bring other Innovative Tech to ethereum where a paino that we've seen for a while is being entrenched in this full stack of ethereum Technology right it's like being stuck with a PS2 when your PC

friends all of these different parts are being created you're not able to do anything with them so what modularity enables is in the short term for ethereum folks to be able to leverage these really powerful Tech Stacks that are coming to Market that otherwise would be siloed to alt chain and allows the builders on those alt chains to not be shooting themselves in the foot by choosing to not build with the accepted and adopted Tech stack and infrastructure existing with ethereum so then the golden question here becomes what this means long term are Builders developers going to be able to understand these different Tech Stacks because even coming to understand one piece of the four parts of of modular

blockchains from the settlement execution consensus and da can be be very tough to learn even as someone who's native to this space and so are we going to see people building efficiently and effectively with these Stacks or are we going to see entire alt chains such as salana continue putting up numbers and just completely mitigate and circumvent all of this conversation that we're having around ethereum anybody else have any any any thoughts yeah I was originally convinced that ethereum in the end would only host a bunch of Merle roots and perhaps some proofs and be solely doing uh proof

verification uh and perhaps some da stuff think now we like proof aggregation technology we don't even need to save up that much block space for verifying ZK proofs and with da kind of going into a and Celestia might actually after the whole modular cycle see a bit of Renaissance on ethereum for just apps directly on the L1 because as a commodity of course uh we're going to do such cost optimizations on the da that minting an nft might become affordable again I do think that because we've been operating in such a limited space like Cooper's been saying we've really been avoiding a lot of use cases for crypto uh game fire and search and basically been so focused on what's possible within this very limited sent

box that is the evm uh focused on very simple finance that now with more we're basically going to be able to do much more advanced and much cooler stuff Al together and so we might see that on ethereum itself and on the L1 itself it's actually going to be the most simple applications and in the modular space itself we're going to see the really high performance really sophisticated Financial tools uh far more sophisticated than XY equals K or concentrated liquidity um so kind of but I as a builder find most interesting uh to really s my teeth into uh kind of using all of these tools to build CL dexes um dexes kind of outperform Trad F in a lot of different

ways uh I think um there's something really appealing about putting all the apps in one giant composable State machine clearly that's a good thing and a lot of people like that and there's a lot of need for that and also a lot of people like ethereum just because they are long on E for whatever reason or uh they've been using it for a long time or they have positions on there or what what have you but uh I think one could extrapolate that big high capacity parallelized rollups on eth or maybe just one or two of them will dominate and eventually be where all the activity on eth comes from and so then the only thing the settlement layer does is settle proofs for one gigantic rollup or maybe two gigantic

rollups or just a few and then the way that eth makes its money is uh da unless uh the rollup is also Al sequenced by eth in which case there can also be some M but I think it's a little bit too early to tell how the mega rollup would be sequenced um there's there's a lot using centralized sequencers uh shared sequencers are pretty fast and a pretty good solution um but there's also been talk of these like pre pre-confirmation schemes that make rollups fast even without needing any sorts of sort of um additional sequencing besides the L1 um but regardless of that there's always been a a belief that um you know Cosmos and ethereum can coexist there's always been

a belief that uh you can have like the one uh unified environment and then the one environment where apps are sovereign and interconnected and a lot of people like both uh there it it it seems like uh this thesis has held up um for long enough now that uh we can pretty confidently say that it'll be around to stay uh so yeah I I would say that like eth eth will exist and something that looks like Cosmos will also exist and uh they will survive until the end of time independently um I can't totally agree with that but I'll push back slightly on the independently part of it um just uh we're super excited about a project

called ethos that's building on igen um as part of our ABS ecosystem and Ethos is focused on running a minimal Bridge from ethereum to Cosmos communicate communica over IBC to Consumer chains so um it will act as a communication layer and a liquidity layer between ethereum and Cosmos allowing these ethereum resters to support that ecosystem as well so totally agree that both of these ecosystems will continue to exist but as Ceno mentioned there is a future for that interoperability there is a future for those two ecosystems to thrive together expand economic activity and I think one thing that we have to think about is like with all this additional infrastructure building that's been

happening over the last you know uh 18 months two years where the focus has been infra um at least most of the dominant Builders have been infer Builders um what are all the Next Generation use cases that we're thinking about to bring onto the ethereum ecosystem right as C mentioned if you know based on today's existing um landscape it's very it's very possible that there's a centralization of Roll-Ups there's minimal Roll-Ups that are settling and there isn't as much um potentially not as much utility for ethereum other than being the settlement layer for a select few rollups but if we can increase the overall adoption bring in new user groups bring in new um use cases then you know potentially we can

uh we can change that and you know expand expand the value propositions across these ecosystems think that's a really important point is we we've seen uh we've kind of only seen like two real use cases with decent pm meth like defi is kind of the main one and obviously nfts have uh you know have been quite strong um but as more and more uses come in you know people have been speculating for a long time about gaming coming in and I assume there you know social as well some of these new use cases might have less dependency on like one shared State machine like this interdependency like obviously that interdependency is really great for defi but like gaming that might not matter as much Social

that might not matter as much so with different constraints like they'll be kind of different demands for different types of stacks and so you know some some uh some chains might uh make more sense as a separate individual chain they might not need you know certain types of security guarantees certain types of Da guarantees uh you know every application will be kind of free to kind of make that trade-off himself yeah and that's one thing that Rob and I have been learning quite a bit uh over the last several months with regards to modular block chains is that a lot of this a lot of the specialization of each stack is actually trying your best to for like a better term evade a tradeoff and in instead

impose something better or a light version like a light node light client or uh in your case with fuel David when you guys kind of do the uh the uh the execution you kind of spread it out and then and I forget exactly how Nick said it but but there's a mechanism in which you can kind of assess a large amount of other information or data transactions and basically like um do you can prove or prove or verify this information at the da with datab ability sampling um and at other layers using these kind of like light clients or light nodes um could you could could you guys explain to me and to the the audience kind of the presence of light clients and this idea of of like sampling or kind of how

you guys at the specialized layer are able to evade some of these typical Trad offs that come with a blockchain trilemma but may not be so prevalent in a modular blockchain because of the technology that you guys have uh brought in at your own individual layer um and if there's anybody Keen to kind of start please feel free yeah I mean you touched on uh you like clients being a kind of a really important piece of like a modular blockchain stack and you know being able to kind of go back and learn from the mistakes of the past uh like ethereum it's it's very hard to make like a good uh light client that people can actually run that's why we're all dependent on in fura uh for for kind of getting our data we can't really verify data on our our

phone for like main ethereum so when uh when fuel was kind of being architected it was built from the ground up to be you know fuel use is this utxo model which is it doesn't have like one massive Merkel route I don't need to dig too much into the technical details but the idea is that it's easy to kind of download a proof from a server where you can uh validate the the state of the of a fuel chain uh you can do it on a very lightweight device and and you can kind of do it alongside if you have a fuel chain running on like Celestia you know Celestia also is a uh project that you know has built from the ground up uh to have uh light clients enabled so this gives like a lot more assurances to users so that that's kind of something

that plays to just the uh the ethos of building decentralized technology which was kind of touched on on earlier about how we make sure we don't end up uh you know building technology that gets taken over by governments the other thing that like clients are super important uh important for is interoperability uh the uh the cosmos ecosystem is you know kind of IBC is totally built around this idea of like clients you know IBC uh lets chains communicate each other by running light clients of each other's chains and kind of validating State validating transactions against these light clients so um in in this modular world where we you know likely have many different chains different execution environment things like that uh lifelines are also

incredibly important for that to enable to enable interoperability between chains and so yeah a lot of kind of our research work doing right now is you know how do we enable good interoperability between two different rollups using uh using these light clients you know letting two different chains kind of uh prove the the state of another chain you know with a shared da layer or shared settlement layer things like that um so yeah again kind of ensuring it's decentralized and UR that we can kind of unfragment this very fragmented world that we have right now of all these different like disconnected l2s so uh the the reason why I I think that data availability sampling destroys

the blockchain trama uh well first of all uh all three of the words in the trama are pretty poorly defined uh scalability decentralization and security but the way I interpreted it was uh at least for scalability that could be transactions per second and decentralization is cost to use the chain trustless cost to use the chain without needing to trust an intermediary to query it um like uh David said with infura how everybody right now just blindly trusts infura whenever they use the chain because they don't have their own node um and uh the way that we want to solve that is with trust minimized

like so you want to have a service that a user can run which verifies the correctness of the Chain's consensus so that's the signed headers um from the validator set the execution of the blockchain state machine and it can verify that with either fraud proofs or ZK proofs ideally ZK proofs because then they don't have the one out of an assumption uh and then the last thing that you also need to verify is Da because uh if you download a header that contains a valid ZK proof you must know that there exists a corresponding block to that header and that is what data availability sampling is and uh that's the one where the cost to verify just goes up linearly when you increase the

TPS sampling is your way out of that sampling is your way of keeping the cost of verifying da constant regardless of how much TPS you have so you can crank the bandwidth up for the full nodes but keep the bandwidth usage of the light nodes constant regardless of the overall throughput of the network and so that's how we have we can make trust minimized like clients possible uh and there's kind of a long way to go until we get there none of the Sovereign rollups right now have um particularly promising fraud proof or ZK proof implementations uh that work perfectly with our you know um namespace Merkel tree and our 2D read Solomon Square uh that's in the works um but uh you know one you have to take it one step at a

time and uh you know we just we just ship main net so we have we have G live now and uh the rest of the pieces are starting to come together and Carell I think you were going to go into Less on the cost but perhaps more of the interoperability and and security with the light yeah I would say in like the more space light clients are even more important than before is basically what was previously all performed by the single monolithic stack these tasks are now send out to perhaps completely different components and the best way to track these components of course is with a clients in the end on ethereum You observe Celestia State through light clients like glob stream is a ZK light

client itself um and so the more things we modularize the more important it is to either run those modular components on a very large amount of nodes which is kind of IG layers approach right like keep it kind of simple but just run it on a bunch of computers and have ad stations to that and the other fundamental approaches like somehow compress this computation that was done and be able to track it to clients and the most promising stuff here seems to be to push that in the ZK sense H because otherwise with the light client we're still going to be performing a lot of computation and a light client isn't that light if you're going to allocate half of your block space to performing life F verification so you need to keep that very lean as well and then kind of to blockchain trma um I also always

thought it was poorly defined to meet the cap theum right database science like it can't have consistency availability and partition tolerance and and I think with modular right now what we're kind of doing is we're going to give up somewhere a little bit of consistency in availability we're adding some latency so the atomicity is going away but uh for that we're going to get massive scalability and and this kind of what all of the major web players also did right like Google Facebook Etc they gave up Atomic consistency uh to be able to go Planet scale and modular can do the same I'm very curious to see like if you could actually get Solana itself like performance and off to go Planet scale I

think from like very large web two companies we've learned that you really can't do this you can't have like this single instance that can scale that much um that's also by the way I'm a bit bearish like it to make composability in the modular ecosystem because that'll kind of get rid of some of the advantages that modular gives you very cool um yeah there's an it's an interesting kind of uh debate the one the uh that all kind of started with the uh is is ethereum screwed question or Not by the way um and then we got into like clients which which is uh which is which is very interesting and now I kind

of want to pass over to more of um kind of what is being built now um you know we have about 15 15 minutes and then we'll let the the the community do some kind of Q&A and perhaps some more broad questions but um yeah I would love to hear about uh the the the products that are being built now from from each of you or uh just generally what you think uh the the modular space uh is trending towards and and you know how you're positioning yourself and your company your project uh to kind of be in that in that uh in in that realm so yeah why don't we start with uh with Cooper and then we'll make a round here yeah our vision here is that move can become a public good such that in the move stack

which we're building could be integrated with any existing developer toolkit whether that be the arbitr orbit polygon cdk be the existing op stack even some ZK Stacks as well such that the move language becomes fully portable fully modular you can build with it where you want how you want and with whatever stack that you want so keep an eye out for some exciting news coming around end of this year early next year with movement labs and you can see some of the first networks that will be supporting with this sweet C node where's the where's the modular F or here we go Veronica

welcome sorry yeah no I I have a bit of a cold right now so haven't been speaking that much but no we're really excited with the clipse I personally am focused on a lot of our consumer side of the things um really focused on user experience um Mass adoption really so lots of things on in gaming social f um pretty excited to be bringing all of that to Eclipse which should be main netting around q1 of next year so you guys should look out for some fun games uh we we will have a lot of nft initiatives and yeah a lot of stuff also happening on the defi side but just a very strong personal interest on consumer depth nice I think we're going to just put a

pause right here I think Rob's going to take us right back into the weeds since we do have a little bit more time Rob did you have that did you have a technical one yeah I mean we we can definitely we can spend lots of time in the weeds but I think like when it comes to integrating a lot of the tech that we have here like I I love the spirit of like building a modular rollup like right here on this stream so like I I'd love to just kind of like go on like that train of thought which is essentially like I'm curious if anyone has ideas like how would you construct like the projects that are that are here across da VMS and and interop like how would how would one of you guys go about constructing one of these rollups with

like a focus on evading some of the trade-offs that aren't available by constructing a monolithic chain or one of these traditional rollup constructions like what is what is new and Innovative about these modularity uh constructions that allows us to evade certain tradeoffs if you guys have any any ideas it's not super in the weeds but I'm curious like so that we can Inspire some of the builders that are listening and watching as far as how they could combine the tools that each of the projects here have built I can kick off with something is uh like one of our kind of pces and and one of the ways that we're thinking when

we're designing fuels we're kind of trying to like skate where the puck is going with this modular ecosystem and part of that we we'd say is that uh in some sense the The Da problem is kind of solved we've got uh you know two great da Pro uh teams on this call here and we've also got ethereum you know kind of with bank sharding and its plan and that you know right now like on uh you know for rollups uh data availability is the most expensive resource if you send an arbitrum transaction like most of your fee is paying for da and so there's like some some teams are kind of really like focused on compressing that but we think uh in in a pretty short period of time it's going to completely flip and that da is going to be the cheapest resource and so when we're building um fuel we're

kind of trying to uh to actually maximize our usage of Da because it's actually the other resources it's it's the execution and it's the state growth that are the harder problems to solve and so if we can kind of make that tradeoff uh use da because we think da is going to be like cheap and a ailable and uh you know kind of put more stuff into da that we don't have to put as much data into state so that we don't have to do as much computation in execution um that's kind of what we're trying to do with fuel and we think that's going to be a kind of a key part of the architecture of you know the the kind of chains of the future is you know once we have this module architecture your your assumptions about how to build

a chain how to build an execution layer chain so I guess if we're building a rollup here that's kind of one constraint or or one design decision that I would add to our our role that we're building on that point um code in nvs I know that uh celesti has a blob stream um which kind of fights that uh fights that uh State bloat problem in in a sense at the da layer um how how are how can we build a top of what what David said today with your respective uh projects to to kind of build a Top Fuel VM or kind of insert VM here to to solve that state bloat problem and and how do you see kind of Builders thinking about

this when choosing a DA layer or just when choosing you know a VM and yeah let's put this roll up together uh well I mean the first the first question you should ask is do you want to be on ethereum or do you want to be Sovereign um there's a hot take hot take I'm just messing keep going keep going um once you decide then uh you know you would uh you would either use you either use roll kit from Celestia which is our um well I mean it's it's a public good rollup frame Sovereign rollup framework that works on any da layer it works with any VM that you can wrap with the ABCI interface um which we have tested with

um evm Cosmos SDK and fuel um and uh um yeah pick pick a VM that pick a VM that scales pick a VM that has a good smart contract language that you like and that you devs can build good apps with and uh we can do it all one one quick followup here is that do you guys think we need more infrastructure or do you think like now with all the explosion of modular tooling we have plenty of VMS we have plenty of Da layers we have you know plenty of these tools like we have enough infrastructure to now Focus towards consumer facing applications I think vs you can tie that

in too good yeah I think above all else right now we need education on how to best be leveraging these different Stacks a lot of it's very brand new we've made a lot of great leaps forward in terms of creating new infrastructure now we just need to figure out what works what sticks what breaks what's going to scale and from there I think it it's going to become more clear what infrastructure is necess NE connecting the gaps between them yeah I think you should uh never build infrastructure ahead of time first run into growth issues make sure that you have a real pain point and then solve it with da we have that right PHS are spending a lot of money on this so

you need to solve this with interrup we have a real issue here with liquidity fragmentation so we need to solve that and I think to be honest like everything I'm Mar is doing right now comes from original issues same with execution environments verification um and so now it's time to actually build those consumer apps and run into the next growth issues and basically uh make sure that some point all of our products are completely unusable again and then find the next iteration uh I I can't help but agree with Carell right um I think you're touching on like infrastructure having product Market fit as well which I think is important um and you know uh I'm going to I'm going to take somewhat of a like a methodical like measured response

to this one because like there's a lot of moving pieces I feel like um one like one of our major you know uh thesises like Theses looking at um data availability right now is like there's this um you know most of the most of the demand today and most of the fees paid are coming from like as we mentioned like a lot of defi use cases order book Dees nft marketplaces Etc right and these projects um have a lot of value per there's value per transaction and then there's throughput right which are you know like two of the dominant demands value per transaction almost always puts a demand on security and then throughput um usually has a lower value per transaction but more High frequent State updates you can picture

things like onchain gaming social networks Etc in the future right um and so you see this like uh tradeoff that these projects make where there's um High throughput needed but not necessarily a high demand for security or not necessarily High maybe a high demand for security but there's a low value per bit in each of these transactions whereas these defi projects have a really high value per bit and so um Ceno touched on this but like if you're building a rollup it depends on like which ecosystem you want to play game with right so like there's a couple of ecosystem builders in terms of BMS here but um really if you want to be an ethereum rollup then we say you have to pretty much write to the in protocol da

right which is writing back to to the L1 right and that's the definition to some extent of an ethereum rollup any rollup that doesn't settle on ethereum is now using an outof protocol da right if you're using an outof protocol da now you have the choice of again going back to which ecosystem do you want to uh be associated with which ecosystem Do you want to build on and um Ian layer we're looking to reenable this um as Carell mentioned earlier you know we're trying to be this coordination mechanism for stakers and operators to participate in like solving some of these challenges within the ethereum ecosystem right so we're staying very much within this um large pool of liquidity developers users

Etc and so um the real question then is if you wanted to build a rollup on uh ethereum um likely we would Ian we would push you towards one of these rollups as a service or um you know rdks that are infrastructure players as well because they've abstracted away most of the complexity required to like actually go about building it quite often it can be as simple as like a couple of clicks and now you've got a row up deployed right so uh and again we've touched on the user experience problem and product Market fit problem right so if we want to get super simple and Celestia is also integrated with a lot of these rollups uh rollups as a service or rdks as Cen

mentioned so you're able to like really go in choose what stack you want to build on choose BM you want to be using choose what da layer you're subscribed to so really a lot of these players like Caldera conduit um they're the ones who have abstracted away the complexity for the end rollup developer and so um if we're going about this game of like trying to decide what to build on um it's really what ecosystem do you want to be subscribed to and then who's the infrastructure player that's abstracted away the complexity the thing about building on igen is we also have this ecosystem of Services uh actively validated services that are being built on this reaking platform and you know we have projects that are doing proof of

location or proof of Machin hood or building Watchtower networks or also building you know um fast finality layers cross-chain liquidity protocols um and I highly recommend you guys look at 13-year-old BC uh BC's tweet today which is kind of highlighting a bunch of the partners in our ecosystem and kind of giving it really uh succinct um you know but quite explanatory breakdown of like a lot of the partners that are building on us so that that's kind of how I'm looking at it in terms of um if you choose to build on ethereum and you settle with an in protocol da you're an ethereum rup if you choose to use an out of protocol da you have to decide whether you want to be an ethereum

rollup a Celestial rollup or an Avil rollup or Etc yeah and and and I think that one thing that's gotten me most excited about modularity coming back to the first point of skipping modular Summit in in in Paris this year in favor of an ethereum L2 rollup day is that the optionality of crypto is is is a lot of the reason why any of us are even here right it's a crypto in of itself is an option to break free or to choose away from the the traditional Financial system that is represented in your country and then coming into like the modular stack no longer do we have to choose one monolithic or one uh design we get to we get to kind of be a chemist

or a or we we get to pick as if we were at a restaurant off of a menu what we what we're hungry for that night what our use cases and our specific desires are for our game or for our heavy Finance primitive or for our social app or for insert use case here and and that's what's super exciting uh kind of to me um and building off that for you guys we've been talking a lot kind of about the developments of the space each part U we're coming to the last 15 minutes we we have a request for some Alpha no questions just Alpha and so I'm going to put it in a question for you guys um how do you see value acre in the modular stack uh compared to a monolithic chain um and let me give you

a visual I click a transaction on modular rollup a it goes through execution layer da layer there's there's a there's a are in there then then we go back to down to the settlement layer um right and kind of reach that consensus that the transaction was process there's little bits of value being extracted and revenues being generated at each of those levels so yeah the alpha is how is value accured in the modular blockchain world and are there any comparisons that we can look to in the monolithic world to perhaps uh ease our speculative desires and please don't go overboard if if your if your legal team's going to kill you but highest value crew in the modular world yeah I I really love the

comparison of consoles to PCS in which when you're building a computer you're able to have top-of-the-line Parts accomplishing very different purposes from your CPU your GPU your hard drive memory all of this good stuff the value cural exists between those different parts as each one is at its highest level of performance you're getting compounding growth compounding returns between the power of the overall system and so you're actually able to create this hold that is greater than the sum of its parts another really exciting benefit of modularity is that it's really good for the biodiversity of blockchains that over the long course of

eth we see a lot of forks of a lot of the same protocols and then when one of them gets hacked it means you have cascading vulnerabilities throughout a number of different protocols and trust isn't just fractured in that moment but it's actually unclear what you can trust to begin with and what applications are exposed to these sorts of same vulnerabilities and so on top of that gaining access to ecosystems of entirely new applications written in entirely new languages while also benefiting from those very infrastructural stacks and the benefits compounding of those makes for a very exciting modular future and very exciting future Which movement Labs is

bringing with our ecosystem of move-based applications Frameworks and networks that are going to be coming and stacking on top of existing networks which you all are familiar with anyone else want to take a speculative stab or a or a theoretical uh sure um I think even though fees will be low you know because we're we're going to successfully make scalable things uh all the layers can still be profitable kind of like how when you buy something at the store the retailer is profitable the shipping company's profitable and the wholesaler profitable you'll have whoever controls the ordering makes money off M if you're

sending transactions that create muv whoever is uh doing execution will make enough to uh you know pay back the cost of executing the transaction plus a little bit to make it worth their while uh same goes for the da layer and cons a sler I would then even add on top of that because you make every single component as efficient as you can like Cooper said you commoditize them all much more efficiently so where apps right now overpay a lot for the features they use basically they can themselves acrew a lot more value and which then in turn kind of goes to the communities of each of these applications right uh so in the end hopefully it's actually the end users that acrew most value and H

and all of a sudden we'll be making 15 bucks more on each trade since they won't be paying the gas fee every single time yeah I think that's a great point is that the the modular stack enables more competition because it kind of you know allows competition at at more finely grained pieces of the stack and oftentimes competition will kind of it'll squeeze margins and we'll see that kind of anything that's commod commoditized uh anything that can be easily duplicated or turned to a service like the fees are going to the margins are going to get squeezed down the fees are going to get pushed down uh which again is great for a user users will get lower fees uh can be a challenge for projects trying to kind of figure out how to build something sustainable

something where they can kind of capture some value um where we see value capture the real world uh one example is obviously if you have a network effect you know Network effects are are you know incredibly difficult to overcome blockchains you know and crypto does provide some interesting tools to kind of over overcome Network effects you can do fun things with tokens but still like there's a reason ethereum is is worth a huge amount and you know ethereum classic and ethereum there's a million ethereum killers that are worth nothing and it has nothing to do with their technology it has to do with the the network effects of the the the community and the developers and the applications around ethereum and the other place where I think you can really acove value

is if you are acre risk or assuming risk um you know risk is something that needs to be compensated for it's it's something that's certainly not commoditized and if you're a any protocol that can kind of split risk off and kind of allow you know one type of user to kind of pay for lower risk and have that that value be assumed by another party that's more risk tolerant uh I think that's like the personally I think that's the most interesting part of the kind of value acral space um and I guess that's that's all I'll say on that but there's my there's my take Beauty I think you make it not

necessarily sound Bleak but H to go on that commoditizing doesn't mean that necess needs to be harder for infra Builders or the large da projects I think the cheaper and more efficient you can actually provide the service the bigger you can grow dtcc I think settles two quadrillion a year and kind of their share their their fee of this is only a couple of billion in profits every year but the fact that they're able to execute this so efficiently so cheaply allows this Market to grow to an absolutely massive size and as long as like for some filamental Services we need to charge a lot in crypto we kind of cap how big this Market can become H if you trade on ethereum obviously gas price will go up the more trades happen

which means that trading wise ethereum can only settle so much until trades need to increase in size you lose granularity they become less efficient to kind of kept the settlement volume at the moment uh and by going more efficients we can up that volume significantly it's not necessarily a race to the bottom in in terms of like da and and lowering fees for sequencers and for uh you know kind of the the settlement layers or or the execution layer it's actually a matter of uh as you're saying Carol widening the total addressable market and um than offering uh a way better experience and then maybe taking a little bit and I and I

think that even you guys at the da and VM layer uh and perhaps you're getting a little ahead of ourselves but there's also talks of subsidizing those those costs that you guys are uh will be uh incurring and then fees charged kind of like how you know optimism does sequencer uh fees and then gives it back into retroactive grants um you know I've I've I've also heard talks about kind of that those subsidies potentially coming into play where those fees are actually being reused to boost the community in some capacity yeah it's something that we're exploring on our side in addition to democratizing this language the platform that folks interact with as well such that Builders if you're building an

application it's only fair that a portion of gas that's being used on your application is being returned both to you as a team to you as a protocol and of course to the ecosystem itself so really looking to model things like we see in a carbon or phosphorus cycle in nature with within web 3 and Within These Financial systems that we develop yeah um I I can't help but um you know agree with the with the design space that most people are mentioning here I think we are moving to um I think two key two key points that were touched upon is like both the race to the bottom in terms of cost optimization but also as a result needing to widen the larger

net and bring in more users and adoption and things like that um we're still we're still um very much designing our pricing model that designing um how slashing Works which is kind of how risk is um handled in igen layer um I can briefly touch on kind of how the architecture for igen layer works and what payments will look like in the future but um obviously not the payment model but these services that are borrowing security and validation from um the economic security resters and the validators on ethereum will need to be compens ated for opting into this slashing condition as well as running the service and so um it's you know the F in the future these services will all

be paying fees back to um this ecosystem of operators and stakers which we're really excited to kind of be the coordination layer for um in terms of Da specifically which is something we've built internally and is a service that relies on this platform but um we get to exercise a lot more of the decisionmaking over um there will likely be uh subsidized fees for most of our launch Partners um what that looks like and you know um how that works is still very much up in the air we have something along the lines of um an AWS pricing model where it's kind of like reserved reserved instances versus spot instances on AWS you could you know kind

of picture a future like that how da would work but um that's still very much uh in design Something That We're flushing out right now and looking to announce closer to main that nice yeah every time that I get closer to you know these conversations and ra I'll pass it over just just uh um I always think about these things from like a user dejen perspective like if I'm freaking putting my Capital At Risk on your modular rollup powered by movement and igen I'd better be getting little little hints of tidbits into my wallet every every thousand dollar of you know economic value that I bring and so I love just kind of thinking about this from like how can we also uh enrich

the users and make them happier and more loyal to to kind of what you're doing almost as if they didn't even need to to kind of know it on you know underneath so totally and and I'll give you a not so spicy perspective on where the value of it Cruise which is that it's back at the users it's like all everyone here Drew very vibrant like like mental models for or like where the value flows if it starts in a user's wallet where like where does it go after that and like up until now I mean since we started this you know development Journey which is like the fat application thesis and then it was the fat protocol thesis and it's like a

one-way flow of where this value occurs modularity breaks all that and and it means that the value of Cru in this like this like just explosion of value across multiple layers which I I think was a perspective all all of you got shared and ultimately it's it's it's reciprocal now modularity it's a two-way street and a lot of the the value is then flowing back into the communities which are made up by the users and the builders and the contributors yeah just just adding to that right like most of us I don't know about you guys but I I'm I'm a big Spotify user I use a lot of different applications like very much still tapped into the web two space right and the majority of applications that we use in web 2 are comprised of plenty of

different you know infrastructure SAS modules that we don't interface with as the end user they're just purely abstracted away right um we're using oo for signin and that's almost default right none of us think about sign in with Google sign in with Facebook Etc but that's oo okay that's a module right there right you have stripe that's doing some sort of payment processing on the back end right that's another module that's completely abstracted away from the end user uh there's likely some optimization modules that the you know the service that you're using is like underneath and most likely the entire stack is being hosted on some cloud provider as well but each of these infrastructure players is getting a fraction of the revenue of the users you know uh the user adoption the daily

active user rate Etc but at the same time like all of this is being abstracted away from the end user because the experience determines the amount of value acral to some extent and Robbie to your point like that at the end of the day this all goes back to usage adoption and user experience which I think as infrastructure players we don't necessarily spend as much time on but that's where rollups and I think Downstream of them the daps will be forced to spend the most amount of time on going into the next couple of years in this um you know adoption Focus cycle adoption Focus cycle powered by modular blockchains powered by open-mindedness

optionality scalability best us ever coming very very soon thank you so much guys for coming on ending on an optimistic note um very much appreciate the great Vibes and the information um I know that the community is uh very excited about this this niche in this vertical just based off the amount of questions and different types of conversations happening in private D gen you know we've got private dgen whale chats of guys who are still were like what is a data availability so guys we have a long way to go in the education to get the whales on board and uh and the rest of the users as well so again thank you so much for coming on and um we will continue to try our best to

educate uh the users through our platform as well as have uh as many of you guys consistently on as possible and it would not be possible without you guys so thanks guys thank you thanks everyone yeah thanks everyone thank you take care guys a lot of fun cheers everyone thanks thanks for coming Cheers Cheers oh you're on mute modularis not maximalism brother there it is we're gonna keep this running for a minute or two build whatever build whatever dude you can build

anything my goodness look at this The Vibes are up moderator was great thanks everyone it was interesting experience what a great vibe what were your key takeaways I mean there was a few light bu moments in there um one of them was opt in sovereignty which I'll I'll hit on for a moment which is that like the ability for rollups to opt into sovereignty and and basically move like fluidly in and out of it was was just like very eye opening because it it's not only like you have to you know we and we started on kind of like this exercise of like constructing our own rollup and it's not like if you construct your own rollup and you plug in these certain

pieces in the old way in the modu in the in the monolithic way it was like you built it and it was immutable and you couldn't change it now we have like these modular pieces and you can go in and out you can plug in pieces and then you can take it out if it's not fit in your use case and plug something else in and you can and you can move around in these different just in the modular space you can just move around and interact and just bump into these different tools and these different communities and it's just just very very cool see the adaptability of these communities and the applications and it it makes me very bullish dude I I mean my convictions in the market are just consistently boosted by live streams and by podcasts and by conversations with

Giga Brands It's actually an investing hack um I think one one of my big takeaways based on what you're saying is like Ras providers like this like build your rollups with a build your modular blockchains with like five clicks in less than five minutes is a is like a that's just a crazy crazy idea so like gelato uh Caldera conduit alt Lair um and the rest like building being able to bring those pieces of infrastructure together man that's wild the other thing that stood out to me um in in the value of Cal thought is that uh one of the biggest problems with crypto companies and projects for the last five years has

been the lack of profitability due to poor piss poor Revenue models no demand and people overall not using products but if we can create modular rollups something that is very exciting to somebody that is built upon fuel Celestia and ethereum settlement or you know use Union for interrupt and espresso for shared sequencing or whatever you want to build it all of a sudden if there's a couple of hits like a game that goes viral or a or a application that is a hit dude all of those parts of that stack are going to be repriced upwards and so like the goal for these I feel the goal for these is

like to get into as many rft providers and to as many modular Builders as possible and just almost like hope that you that you get some hits on your r on your modular rollup because if you are the da provider for this game that has 10 million daily active users brother the amount of data that you're going to be processing is just going to be insane so I'm quite interested to see um I'm quite interested to see how how these module rups built on these different Stacks actually acred that value and then of course where it comes to the users like for us like where does that where do we get the reciprocal that exactly and and I think it starts and

ends with the users and then it it goes and it hits all of these toolings and all of these layers and and and parts but but again I think what you're saying about a game that has 10 million daily active users it starts with getting those users and then and then it it's a chicken and an egg like the users are going to come if if like the experience is there they exactly it's it's a flywheel it's a cycle it's a it's a self-reinforcing prophecy and we're getting there in terms of the technology another that I liked was that none of these guys were super uh like none of them were super like Fierce and competitive or like um my Stack's better than your stack I think the modular um the modular mindset if you whoa modular mindset um that's a

brand I think the modular mindset is actually of like pure open-mindedness and acceptance and optionality and understanding that sure your VM is better than this person's or this Project's VM for this use case but they might oust you in that use case and like okay like building on WM may not be as good as building on Rust for for these reasons but for blockchains that need these that that have this use case actually rust is better or wm's better um and so like I think a lot of these teams rather than like because like all the monolithic l1s they all have to fight with each other because it's all race to the bottom on speed and on cost nobody gives a about security it's speed and cost whereas These Guys these stack buers like yo like maybe ours

isn't the best for everything but we are specialized for some things and so we we respect other projects because they're they're good and we can actually lift them up uh for the education of of everybody thus providing a better space for the whole entire yeah the entire crypto for for for all of the users that's the energy right there and and you're totally right about like the alt one thesis is dead it's like it not not just the alt one thesis is dead but like potentially the ethereum I'm n it etherum unable but what you're saying I money it's not going anywhere there's going to be an etherum ETF like but yeah the monolithic change thesis is dead the

monolithic chain thesis is dead so ethereum is GNA have to adapt or die but there's plenty of room for ethereum to adapt into the modular space and and on the modular mindset I love that the message there too is it does the uh the mindset here is not competitive like you're saying and I think that aligns with our thesis on competition which is that this space is infinite and it feels like you know sometimes when the space gets crowded it starts to feel like it's finite but ultimately in the modular space it does really feel like this like there's an infinite realm of opportunities for for Builders to build and you I love that modular abundant

monolithic scarce modular infinite monolithic finite exactly exactly and it breaks a lot of the mental models that were starting to become kind of like old and janky like the the fat protocol fat uh application thesis dead the uh like the all the all layer one thesis dead like and and it's like no shame against the all layer ones like there was a time and a place and the same thing for like I was a big believer at times I was a big believer in fat application at other times I was a big believer in fat protocol and it's like those those those ideas or like those perspectives

had a time and a place but with new information it it becomes so important to adapt because if you don't like the world continues to move on and it'll leave you behind so you gotta like you got to adapt or you're gonna die so yeah it's it's super important for like it's really cool to see some of the projects that we had on this on the on the stream today like push forward and I do hope like some of the projects that have done really really great work up until now adapt and absorb a lot of the information and Alpha that's being shared by these the alpha is they're all tokenless and all you got to do guys is like

except for Celestia all you got to do is pay attention to which modular rollups are being built with which stacks and then you just got to use those rollups like it's that easy guys so like I L does not have a coin they are integrating with somebody uh Eclipse doesn't have a coin use Eclipse risk zero doesn't have a coin but they are using eclipse eclipse is using RIS zero for fraud proofs guys like like it's any modular rollup that is being built with a alternative VM that was up here today except for maybe fuel has a coin but I don't think they do maybe maybe they do any module Ru da or interrup layer you just

use it in the module World Dam guaranteed guaranteed token list retroactive rewards baby much love much love should I buy more wolf in a hat I don't think so I think you should uh I think you should actually buy more modular coins um what timelines do you guys think scalable secure ZK rollups are shipped that can do thousands or more TPS yeah so I just wrote a post about this today with regards to ZK SS Bim upgrade I think that was an interesting one um but I I would say I'd say two years I'd say two years I'd say we were four years or five years ago in last cycle I say we're two years out from that maybe three and I think why it's because modular I think once we

get this modular stack designed down then what we can do is we can have ZK based VMS right we have a ZK based virtual machine uh like using ZK wasm like fluent or a different one and that'll allow uh that'll allow the the uh ZK rollups to ship at that much TPS away from evm and and I think evm uh ZK relps will ship as well but I think these some of these non evm uh Stacks will actually end up shipping uh shipping well stake Tia Tia is modular money now that the panel's done we can say whatever we we want we didn't have we don't have to talk about prices or anything but all I can say is retor

rewards for steak Tia I mean Dimension tweeted today a freaking a freaking camera brother y that means SN like a snapshot that means Dimension took a snapshot and I bet your ass They're copying Celestia because everybody wants to be like Celestia so what do you do you just stake Tia why because you want the Tia Community to be a part of your community because they're big they're they're they're Savages so what do you do you just airdrop to them so that makes Tia modular money and ecosystem or several competent teams behind it I mean I think the panel today speaks for

itself yeah I mean I think so boys the Subscribe Wars I mean yeah exactly the panel speaks for itself we don't yeah there's there's enough said yeah nice all right thanks Rob thanks Andy peace see you