MODULAR MOVE ROLLUPS with Rushi Manche of Movement Labs

Transcript

welcome to the interop today my guest is rousi Mana co-founder at movement Labs movement is a network of modular move-based blockchains in today's conversation we'll discuss the growing narrative Around Da and modular chains M2 their move-based L2 and M1 their decentralized shared sequencer we'll talk about their recent partnership announcement with Noble and Union to bring native usdc to the move ecosystem we'll discuss experimentation in Cosmos and the growing landscape AP of alternative VMS and movements product road map I'm also dying to find out why he thinks the evm is going to zero before we get started make sure to subscribe to get notified when new

episodes drop every week and remember that none of what we discuss here on the interrupt is investment advice and if you enjoy this content please consider sticking with us we're validating on OS Quicksilver osmosis and Juno just look for interupt in the active set my guest rousi Mana is coming up next right here on the inter [Music] I'm here with rushi Mane thanks for coming back on the podcast appreciate it man second time's a charm yeah yeah I mean it's kind of fun when like the

podcast has been running for so long that there's like repeat guests yeah and there's been a few now so it's uh you know it's it's cool and and also it's an opportunity to you know look back on uh our last conversation and just get sort of get an update because there's been so much going on with movement you guys are like all over the place you're on all the podcasts you're all over Twitter lots of announcements and uh all sorts of things coming up uh for 2024 so congrats on all of this uh success and uh and growth you know the the the community's been growing and people are excited about mov movement yeah I appreciates I think it's been like a kind of good beating of the drum where like every week we're building momentum

um and the cards are lining where celesia has been crushing it the ma thesis is crushing it Cosmos is crushing it um seems like everyone's winning and we're like in the center of everything so I'm just grateful for all our supporters and you especially well with uh with pleasure where you know in in 2023 we we saw a lot of narratives kind of come together and I I sort of see 2023 as year of narrative validation of course we had Celestia which validated the modular thesis um dydx Coming online also validated the app chain thesis as well and I mean those two sort of come together um and I I wonder you know in

2024 like where what what's left in terms of a narrative validation specifically in the modular space because you guys are so present there you know what are the things that we still need to prove to the space in terms of bringing uh modularity to blockchains yeah so 2023 is kind of the year of like the da race you had like slust come to Market you had aan da um and then you like ail kind of push the near like the da narrative um the issue there was like da is pre- expensive ethereum takes up 80 90% of all fees so thesis was okay swap on the dealer um so RS can have better um like da settlement um

um 2024 is kind of the year of the VM it's kind of like why have a VM Wars podcast it's kind of dedicated to that where we're actually seeing experimentation um at the BM level it's kicked off by Solana's crazy Bull Run um where like everyone came back to son an e system obviously price action but also saw a lot more experimentation from different ecosystems um and even like the OG ethereum folks like the Oba World um started saying hey we want to deploy on top salana we love uh the SPM Eclipse about the SPM to ethereum um so that was kind of a kick start of that and this year we've seen like explosion of that where you have us for the movm you have CK WM groups coming up experiment typescript and JavaScript on ethereum um so this year mod is really focused on

experimentation execution level I think the evm has been broken for a while um it's weak there's $4 billion lost every year smart contract hacks it's slow we saw inscriptions kind of take down every evm Network and the only ones that survived were like paralyzed ones the nextg ones um so the narrative is clear in that you can still use ethereum you can still use all liquidity benefits you can be connected to IBC and bring in all the cosmos communities and all the tooling there you can live on celes for da with a cheaper um da phase and addressing that solution and the final piece in this like Rubik's Cube is the VM level where we can experiment with different solutions like salana virtu machine the move ver machine and see which is brought to the market in the

best possible way so your your take on on ethereum I think is interesting I mean it's it's definitely an extreme one I think like this idea that the evm is going to zero a lot of people would push back on that y uh what what is the what's the thesis here for the let's say like in 10 years from now yep what will we be using the evm for if anything I think that comes down to solidity right solidity is very analogous to JavaScript in this case um JavaScript is a great language like used by 17 million people something ridiculous um it's a good language started off the birth of web 3 the birth of like JavaScript was for web 2 but there was much better iterations upon solidity and JavaScript that is more enhanced for blockchains so for

example move was built by the Facebook and the DM program literally the biggest consumer app in the world looked at blockchain and was like solity can scale if we ever want to bring our billion users to blockchains We Can't be getting hacked for billions eventually trillions of dollars um consumer assets need be safe as well as I'm bringing millions of users to my network needs to be able to do more than five TPS 10 TPS um inscriptions kind of showed that no evm could do above 100 TPS I think that wasn't the highest number that we got um so looking at if we ever want to bring consumer apps and actually adoption to what we're all here for it's clear the nextg virtual machines are the key however the ethereum virtu machine still is like the predecessor solidity still

has all the Mind share most developers are still there so the way we approach it and kind of what most people in space approaching is embedding backwards compatibility in that still supporting SL smart contract if I'm a SL developer if I'm Unis swap I can still Deploy on top of an next R machine however um either through a transp power either through a hybrid VM which is what say is doing either through like complete restructured evm which is what man's doing um we should be able to scale the evm in other ways um we approach that through a transpiler so um we accept s script but we still run the mov at motherhood um so I wouldn't say that evm like the evm itself is different solidity I would say solidity is still around because most smart Con in that

but I think there's better ways to enhance the the work machine in a way that you can still run solidity on top of next gen BMS do do you foresee Blue Chip smart contracts on ethereum uh rewriting their entire code base in other VMS or leveraging something like move or movement uh to transpile their applications to another VM or do you think the evm will evolve to support other languages like now this has been like in the works for years with Viper and hasn't really played out but where do you see that heading in terms of the evm potentially evolving to continue to support these you know multi- tens of

billions of dollar Blue Chip applications that will you know potentially be like in the hundreds of billions in coming years yeah I think Stan's been like the most vocal about this um in terms of the Sonic system like he wants a on top of neon which is kind the evm solution um for salana so still able to use like a paralyzed runtime still using nextg Rich machine um but bringing a compatibility with the whole a stack a is interesting um because obviously like because it's cross chain and his whole lending markets if you have like one network go down it kind of creates like a trickle effect so security is really important in making sure like the standard is the same across chains so I think there's already been a lot of Mind share around we look at salana and bring Blue Chip protocols to the E system so I think the

first kind of adoption will happen at SL level and they'll trickle down to moving system and other networks in terms of like the evm like it kind of depends on what angle you're looking at I think like Viper didn't show much improvements like the curve attack was a Viper vulnerability which was still a Reon stre bug um so VI Viper has like minimal improvements if not like if any there's still a lot of vulnerabilities the issue is at the VM level itself I don't believe that the like the theor foundation or any groups can really tackle it in the near to short term as quick as like the SL of the world the movements of the world opos and sedes of the world can address issues um so it's kind of like how the question is are blue protocol is going to adopt next BMS

first or is like the theorem Foundation going to be able to um create eips that can substantially improved I've seen a lot of different eips on around security and performance um and a those usually don't allow backwards compatibility so people need to completely rewrite their city code anyway and B um it's like years out and there's no like formulable plans yet while like next gen VMS have a clear road map um for adoption I mean I could I could definitely see it going that way I mean the counter case here is uh is PHP right in web 2 and like php's been around for like 20 over 20 years I think like 25 years now uh We've we've you know anybody who's been in the web two space or has been building web

applications for a long for a long time you know has been saying that PHP would would die you know many times it's like like Bitcoin is dead like PHP was supposed to be dead years ago and it still powers like I think something like 60 to 70% of websites on the internet because there's like a few applications that still use that scale like WordPress and Facebook and a few others you know do do you think that like there's a space for solidity code still continues to uh to power you know very large applications in the space but it's mostly seen as like a legacy language uh while you know new developers and like all the new applications leveraging you know the modular stack will be using things like movement and and other uh VMS but the

that that solidity will continue to be this kind of like Legacy supported uh language you using the evm for you know like decades to come yeah it was a PHP Dev for on the crypto um and I hated it but um I think it's that that's exactly how I see it right cly the evm is Legacy code like it always be referred like even Bitcoin script technically is Legacy um and like etherum was upgraded to that but like Bitcoin is still Bitcoin obviously and there's still like a bunch of brc2 stuff and still Innovations happening there so I think there a market for both in that Legacy code and Legacy like og5 protocols will still remain evm dominant whereas the next gen of innovation is going to happen next gen level if I'm a new

developer coming to the space it's actually more profitable and more intuitive for me to learn rust and rust based languages because a the average salary for that is like twice out of solidity and B there's much more use cases like salana I would say is like the best place to do a payments app um payments across the world at like less than a fraction of scent like instantaneous you can't really do that on ethereum can't really do that anywhere else um move is like the best to do secure programming um so if you want to build like a financial app that's not going to get hacked as well as like dfts and a bunch of other um things that move enable it's that's the best language to pick up so I think there's a bunch of different use cases um that are going to see liked in the

next two or three years that really highlight moo highlight son BM move specifically is big for gaming so when that big gaming web 3 run comes I believe it's going to be in the web 3 system it's going to happen at the move level so yeah I think it's also similar to the AI industry Microsoft has announced their big pivot to rust um and like announcing that the code bases are predominately rust based um before that like AI wasn't like that like 20 years or ago right um but now we're seeing much inovation happened in the rust realm um across different Industries cool well let's uh move on to movement so we had we l had you on in in June so you know anybody who is interested in getting sort of a high level about what is movement and what is the vision there

should go back and listen to that episode because I think it sort of covers uh movement at at a high level uh we're going to get into a little bit more detail here about some of the things that have come out since then um for for instance you guys like announced the M2 um uh for supporting rollups and you also announced this partnership with Noble and Union to uh bring usdc and ethereum security to move rollups we'll also talk about the road map but let's just maybe start with you know a brief uh overview of what is movement and what's the vision there and specifically what does movement bring to the modular stack yeah so thesis is network of moood

based blockchains where we see Envision a bunch of different blockchains um eventually market share being predominant written in moves programing languages in the past um there were monic giants like appon sui that really spearheaded the move VM charge um but there's a lot of bond in terms of interoperability um it was difficult to acquire liquidity uh acquire new infrastructure get new users um so our thesis was we want to see move adopted at scale whether for app chains whether it's for general purpose L2 um and really see adoption there so within Movement we have M2 the first move evm roll up on ethereum um at the execution level it's the move Rich machine paired with ethereum evm compatibility so it's

a forcity code as well as move smart contracts it lives on AUM for settlement so you have native eth directly into the protocol as well as the decentralization and liquidity that eum provides and then da is powered by Celestia um obviously for cheaper transaction fees and better performance and that's connect Ed to M1 which in the past was a subnet um but we modified it to be a descent Shar sequencer the thesis is their sunshine sequencers in today's market one scale a they can keep up performance Next Generation blockchains in this world we're doing 10,000 20,000 TPS you can't have one node that can potentially go down and ruin all those transactions and secondary um it just not profitable in that da is making transaction fees much more cheaper um WEA with celes to Manta

and then next gen BM bring that cost down to like less than one cent the centralized sequencers can't scale and are actually bad for the community our M1 network is a decentralized sh sequencer that can power the M2 rollup um as well as other move based rollups that connect to the network um yeah so basically the first move layer to ethereum um providing solvency for other move rollups as well how do you achieve a a sequencer that is both shared and decentralized without just building another blockchain that also needs its own settlement there yeah so we kind of deprecate smart contract functionality M1 so you like at scale you won't be able to publish smart contracts to it instead the valers are all focused on sequencing the transactions for um M2 so

if you look at espresso radiant some of these other shared sequencers they follow similar model um where they have a set of validators um cell even does this for their layer one which they announced for Layer Two where existing validor All State the native token so if I'm a avalanch validor I can stake the move token um and then participate in the sequencing for the layer two and then all the fees that are generated from the layer two are then distributed back to um the validators so there's actually double pronged approach where valers are not only getting apy from missions but they're also getting large percentage of the sequencing fees so it's kind of double pronged benefit for running nodes which in turn um incentivizes them to run more nodes which creates a further decentralized and eventually permissionless um

sequencing Network for layer twos so let's let's uh let's maybe zoom into m two a little bit here so so M1 you previously was to be this smart contract um blockchain using move where one could deploy move smart contracts that's what we talked about in the last episode so that that has shifted now and is now a decentralized Shar sequencer that will have its own validator set um I want to come back to that in in a minute and then M2 is a roll up framework correct where anyone can you know take that take take that package and deploy it as a roll up um on top of any other da layer modular da layer and security layer um

what are some of the ways that M2 that you can configure M2 to work with say like Celestia or um other other da layers so M2 is a general purpose chain um so it's a lar to that like you deploy smart contracts to it's like optimism Orum Eclipse you can deploy smart contracts and have defi tbll all that stuff the move stack is the framework where you can deploy your own move rollups so let's say we have a few gaming protocols already doing this and going to be live over the next three to four weeks um where let's say my own gaming app I want my own environment I have my own Bridges and oracles I want to use igen da instead of Celestia for data availability I want to use the ZK stack op stack one of these other

Frameworks um we're compatible with all those different Frameworks and da layers I can launch my own move rollup using the move V the move evm um and connect to the sequen network so you'll have M2 which is this like like optimiz the main net where you have a general purpose move evm rollup like Cru tvl liquidity and it's like a liquidity Hub and then you have other move rollups particularly gaming we're seeing a lot of interest um where you can launch Next Generation rollups with 10,000 plus TPS connected to ethereum liquidity and then connecting to Sequin Network so you can do swaps between different chains hopefully that clarifies it yeah okay so let's uh let's dive in because I think I think this kind of ties into the the noble and Union partnership in to some extent right

because these are the different the sort of like other layers of the stack that make this possible um so with with M2 we'll be able to deploy I mean so M2 is its own chain on which you can deploy smart contracts but you can also use the movement uh framework to um to deploy your own app specific rollup yep exactly okay all right so like as a as a developer like what's the what's the decision tree to you know deploy as a movement uh as an M2 smart contract or to go ahead and like deploy your own app specific roll up using movement yeah I think not every app needs his own app

chain in fact you like I same lending protocol I probably want to deploy on top of the main M2 chain so I can interact with other um like apps and users on my network um it's just like any other L2 or any other blockchain where it's if I'm deploying a general purpose app um with defi gaming whatever and I don't need my own sofware environment um it's better just easier to just deploy M2 if I'm a specialized game if I have my own use cases if I need my own like bridging Solutions my own da Solutions I'm a partnership with a polygons of the world optim in the world I can't use the current stack I can still leverage the move framework launch uh my own custom move rout rollup on the cdk on op stack whatever you want on whatever deayer um and then have an

own custom Sovereign environment where no one else can be involved um so we seen that a lot with app chain specifically gaming um because gaming requires high throughput so if you're deploying on top of like a main settlement chain like M2 it may clog up the network you won't see the performance that you want whereas if you have your own Sovereign app chain um it's yours and yours only essentially and um the the M2 chain itself it it leverages uh it's not leveraging Celestia da it is its own chain with its own valid intercept right so is leveraging celes for da but lives in a for sement so uses blob stream in that um case ah okay that's cool okay so it uses celest da and ethereum for

settlement so it's effectively an ethereum rollup yep okay got it and um when it comes to the the sort of like Union and Noble integration here so you guys announced like this partnership with Noble and Union recently um what what is the role of Union and uh and Noble in the stack yeah so typically Next Generation chains like youi I was contributing to the first deck and opas and I can tell you the biggest pain was not having native usdc day Zero um and having two assets on the decks wasn't the most profitable and useful decks in the world um now with M2 you can have native usdc out of the box um so Union is building Sol like clim

machines to connect us to Union chain um which then connects us to like noble via IBC though from a deck deploying on top of M2 now have native USC provided by Noble um linked via IBC which is ensured um with Union's um solo like clim machine um and if I'm a move stack client or if I'm anyone launching my own move Rob connected to the network um you also have native usdc out the box so if I'm a game deploying my own gaming r or like order book deploy my own order book rle up I can connect to M2 with IBC um still Leverage The Union um IBC connectivity and have usdc out of the box um which is something that most app chains if not all app chains can too okay so as a as an application living um

on as a as a sovereign rollup uh using Celestia da the Celestia will send a proof to Union that a transaction's occurred and then that will trigger uh Noble to move Assets in and out of Noble's uh app chain I mean can you still call that native usdc once it's sitting on um on Union I mean it's it's sort of like one step away from being native right I mean it's like native to the US to to to the IBC ecosystem does the does the fact that it requires

Celestia da to provide an extra layer of security there does that not uh sort of no longer make it you know this one hop away from Noble kind of native usdc as we would as we would expect it to be in the IBC ecosystem or or is it effectively the same it's effectively the same because Union does proof sement layer um so when they are checking for the transactions go through the chain um they're able let's say I'm watching on SOL rollup and S to ethereum um Noble or Union sends proofs directly to the union chain and then Rel that to Noble um so adding celestian doesn't change anything the only thing that would change is if you don't use a the for settlement and you're just using like a sof rollup um

with your own consensus mechanism that might make it one hop by way additionally um which is probably like a custom challenge that you need to do with Union and take care of that yourself um but if you're just using a the for settlment um and you have the same Valor that shouldn't be issue okay so so this this this partnership announcement um mostly concerns applications that are going to be using M2 uh but for applications that are using move with another settlement layer or yeah like that are settling some in some other way uh they they would not like have native usdc in the same way that M2 applications would yeah the partnership is mostly focused on M2 getting a prototype up um it's already

Prett experimental on that end um and then eventually the vision is to eventually have Auto the Box CCC and I'm sure unions putting together stuff with that um but the focus is on M2 at the moment what about other rollup or sorry other da providers like where you know H how could they provide um alternatives to Celestia I mean I guess for M2 that wouldn't be the case since like M2 has a some sort of partnership with Celestia uh but settlement rollups could potentially use another da solution right yep so we have Partnerships the Avil um a is coming out shortly and then near as well um so if I'm a game developer and I want to sell a near um near is pretty has high

traffic for Consumer gaming um I can swap at Celestia settle on near use op stack with a polygon cdk um and use movm and have my own custom rollup um we're actually partnering with the rest of the world um shortly being announced so it can be a one click button so you can send you do a drag and drop of like Celestia ail aen whatever use R up stack and then use rvm and it'll be like a oneclick deployment um where the rases actually will handle all the infrastructure so I'm a game developer I focus on my game I can use whatever R stack use whatever D and the RAS itself will take care of it okay and what's the fractal module I I read about this module and I maybe explain what it how it works so it's an evm runtime that

sits upon the move VM um the biggest issue that we face like we touched on is yeah next gen VMS are great but all the developer activity today and all liquidity today is on the evm and probably the near to short term will still remain on the evm um so essentially it's our backwards compatibility solution in that if I'm Unis swap um if I'm like an avalanche app or an optimism app I can keep my city code and then Deploy on top of the even runtime that takes the slity code the 145 op codes maps to the 45 move op codes and launch in the VM so it has a the RPC uh fully mamass compatible um it's atomically composable with any move transaction so if you have a move multisig and you have evm multisig um

they can communicate automically on the VM itself um so it works tox and looks like evm but runs the movie Under the Hood some to like Sol and salana yeah okay so so for for those who aren't like super technical you know can you explain how um this module like Maps the ethereum op op codes to the move op codes and why are there so many in ethereum and so and so many so so so fewer in in move yeah one of the security benefits of move is that there's like a third of the op code so there like basically pretty much no vulnerabilities U whereas having so many op codes is like a downside solidity um how the mapping works is essentially

like you create like if you have like many to one pairing you can say like okay if I invoke a swap function solity I'm going to invoke equivalent function move um given the fact that there's more slowly up codes and less move up codes you ENT have a slowly Library um so if I want to invoke a function and move that's not um covered by slity I can invoke a third party Library that's like the movement client um and write functions there um if there a solity function every solity function is handled by moo because it is like a successor to solity um so essentially any transaction like Unis swap um any gaming transaction with an evm um you just like kind of invoke a transaction and move side okay so so in the case of move there there are fewer op codes and

so in order to achieve you know the same results as you would with you know the 140 some out codes in ethereum move has to make like more it sort of like constructs those OP codes by joining different op codes together yep okay so so so an OP code like to a developer you know when you're writing code uh you write this code in this in this language that you can read and you can create like sort of functions and and declare variables and have conditionals Etc and what the compiler does is it takes all of that code code and essentially just transforms it into like a series of of op codes and those OP codes are read by the blockchain and exec end up executing the transactions so the opt codes are sort of like the equivalent to I suppose

like assembly right I mean it's like this low-level code that that's interpreted by the machine uh in in the case of um so like with with regards to you know the the security of move uh what are some of the more um you know sort of uh risky op codes or like op codes in ethereum that are the the biggest targets for for attacks yeah so it's like or is it like or is it a combination of op codes put together that you know Pro enable things like re-entrancy yeah the withdrawal function is something like SL notorious for um if you look at the curve attack like you can just like see like the withdrawal function or um the sun function or the

transfer function is just like repeatedly abused because there like inter overflow there like a type mishap that's not taken care of by the compiler um even like the kyber attack was like a 0.00 1% vulnerability that no auditor could pick up um and like it's a combination of opcodes right so sometimes it's like every like the withdrawal function is fine the transfer function is fine separately but when you call withdraw and transfer next to each other um that's when the issue comes up because you didn't handle the integer types properly um so it can be sometimes just one individual op code you completely messed up or it can be like if you have three op codes together that were all awful um then that's also an issue it's usually the function level um op code is like in in this case would be

the U Intermediate Language so it's similar to sunblade but it's like called Ule um for blockchains and then um that's kind of a low l b code and on like slity level which is high level um you have like the withdraw function transfer function um that connect to these op codes when you look at it this way it it's it sounds as though you could just have you could you could compile move code directly to ethereum op codes I mean if you guys are already doing this uh transforming if uh solidity into um into move wouldn't wouldn't you be able to also write move code that compiles down to the evm yeah I've seen a few like attempts at this um

but it hasn't it's definitely possible and I think something that we could potentially do it just like does not my big of marketting because Market there because the thesis behind slowly to move is attracting more developers there's two move developers so it doesn't make sense to other way around because you you'll get like five more developers in a perfect world where like every developer counts the same and it's like a thousand move developers thousand evm developers it makes most sense to move to evm um so you can still the point top of Main ethereum and write alternative smart contract languages I think like Nitro was like svm on evm something like that um natur SCM on C there's been like fana implementations of the other way around but I don't think anyone has done

move to evbm okay interesting this this is really interesting stuff I'd have to maybe do like a full episode just on on this topic I'll probably need bring the engineers in who can hopefully do a better job explaining it so coming back to the the movement Noble Union partnership so Aptos and zoi don't have native usdc but so would would this enable some form of native usdc for Aptos and 3 applications I mean could you consider it to be native or would it be like sort of move wrapped usdc which is effectively sort of one step away from from usdc for those ecosystems USC right now Upson s is like Wormhole

wrapped usdc um which is it's good solution for like short term but it's a pain to use if you ever tried it like any Bridge uscc because let's say for example you're bridging from like um abdos to S to salana to pokka dot to near it's wrapping each time you do that so you'll have like five different versions of USC by like those five different transactions which as a developer is a nightmare um as a user you'll see like five different woral USC's um whereas with us you'll just have the one like noble usdc um if you're sending it from let's say you have a deex on top of uh M2 and you want to have Tia you can or swap Tia for UC you're still using the noble USC um if you want to send the uscc to asmosis the

same uscc obviously um if you want to send uscc to warold Gateway and then connect that Wormhole gateway to abdos um same standard um so we we don't have multiple standards of USC because we just have that native uscc obviously the definition native is when Circle SL directly deploys on top of the chain um which is probably ways out for even aison sui um as well as like a bunch of other chains well I'll take this is like the second best option to that um where it's same standard it's not a ux nightmare um and you still have like a redeemer which is n Noble in this case cool so what are what are the benefits that like how does the E the IBC ecosystem benefit from having you know

move essentially be part of of IBC now I think you just have more apps being able to deploy and use IBC there'll be more transactions happening on the IBC reer Network um because now the entire Moving System both apos sui and Ean protocols can directly call um IBC transactions I'm a firm believer that IBC is one of the best if not the best bridging mechanism um on the planet um and so far in the past is pretty much confined to like Cosmos app chains um like cosm wasm BMS this for the first time enables a move to come to IBC which comes back to experimentation thesis of having different use cases um now let's say for example you want to do like a Secure Vault that pretty much can't be hacked

or do like a nextg gaming um DFT app um now you get uscc directly into the ecosystem and all powered by obvious see the backend um so long story short brings move and other VMS um to the cosm system in a way that wouldn't have been done before so zooming out a little bit here I want to talk about Cosmos and sort of movement's position within the cosmos ecosystem I I I think you know if we look at Cosmos there's there's been a there was a pre IBC Cosmos uh and then there was the been the era of like Cosmos and IBC and now we're entering the modular Cosmos era or the ERA with Cosmos plus da and rollups so i' I'd

like you to maybe comment on how you see the future of Cosmos and specifically like how does all of this pertain to the app chain thesis and how should we be thinking about Cosmos in the context of the app chain thesis with all of these new developments yeah I think the past cos just like zones so you have to use conk you use tenament you use com bft and then you IBC um so kind of shut out most of ethereum community and most of the L1 Community now Cosmos and my definition of Cosmos is now any chain that leverages IBC and uses ibcs interconnection um which now opens the possibility to literally every chain you have now Avalanche with like some landside connection you have composable bringing IBC to salana um you

have Union bring IBC to ethereum so so over next few years the cosmos is going to Encompass everything where every main net rollup every main net chain is going to be using IPC to connect to Cosmic system Cosmos use under the hood um and chains can brand as rollups they can leverage app chains they can do whatever they want um particularly for movement that allows Next Generation apps and like move assets to be listed within the conf system so if I'm mosis I can list the T token I can list aftermath token I can listu apos which sui has been doing particularly well over the last few weeks um so that's another great asset to have on the osmosis deck natively um and then zooming out even further like

salana is a big EOS system that compos was trying to connect to um and having soul on like Lavana having Soul assets like goo on top of osmosis and enabling those traders to use like osmosis as a general Hub um really allows for lot experimentation and more permissionless interoperability so if I'm doing a new VM for example let's say it's a better VM that comes out and then move they can now connect to Cosmos connect to osmoses and have all that liquidity available um so you have more like permission and trop which is kind of what hyper Lane's focused on yeah I tend to agree with that view that you know Cosmos is effectively becoming you know the network of IBC connected applications and chains I I think that's a narrative that makes sense because it kind of

departs away from Cosmos being very uh tied at least from a narrative perspective to the hub I mean I think the Hub will continue to obviously carries the name right so it's hard to it's hard for the for for for the entire narrative to detach from that but I I think that in the broader you know when you talk to people that are not in cosmos A A lot of times you know thinking about Cosmos isn't like you know they're thinking about the Hub right and they're thinking about they're thinking about this sort of like vision of Cosmos of 2019 which was the Hub was meant to be this um this liquidity hub that would sit between app chains and other ecosystems like Bitcoin and ethereum and you know polka dot Etc and

that needs to change if people are going to take the cosmos stack seriously and I I think that the the best chance for that to happen is for uh more applications to use Cosmos you know to use Cosmos in the context of say like um using Celestia as a as a as a modular da layer they're using Cosmos stack using ID uh using Noble um and and that brings us into the the next step or the next evolution of Cosmos which is essentially that Cosmos is just technology that sits behind all of these applications there isn't necessarily like a token or you know inherent value acral to that

technology it's just great technology and and I think that kind of reflects what um I think it was Sam and Ethan were recently on the Block one of the block work podcast and we're talking about this right the endgame is for all applications to be using Cosmo stack to be using the cosmo technology stack and I think that's sort of where things are heading and you know certainly as a fun that's where we look also is like applications that are using the stack um more so than applications that align with a specific narrative it truly is internet of blockchains which is like the original thesis behind causus right um and now we're seeing it's exciting right you're seeing like every blockchain trying to use IBC in some capacity um so it's effectively becoming internet um which is the end game that is that is the end game for sure also I

think I think one of the characteristics of Cosmos in 2024 is that there's a lot of experimentation happening obviously you know the the entire sort of Da narrative and the modular stack um cosmos had a big role to play there in terms of making that possible and there are quite a few um new VMS emerging there so you know kosm of course is one of them the movement um stack and the movm is another and I think some people are also like looking at uh uh novel VMS in the Celestia space so you know what what's your take on all this experimentation that's happening here and like what's the what's the long-term

view in terms of having compatibility and application an application ecosystem that you know can flourish without having too many incompatibility between these different VMS yeah I think it comes back to the JavaScript example right like my analog like move is rust as like react as JavaScript so when JavaScript first like came out it was like huge so people loved it um and then like people like oh it's not that great like let's build Frameworks on top of it you had react you had view you had angular those are the ones that really W the Mind M share but you had like 10 15 20 others that tried to make it it's going be the same thing where you have this like unraveling of these different VMS so you'll have move um you'll have like on VM you'll have a km W which also

rust based you'll have xek W which Nows like typescript and JavaScript which is kind of what the gork did a while back um and still is trying to do um I'm sure there'll be like five other VMS that come up in the next two years right the question is like what's going to actually solve for the problems in the past who's going have the best go to market who's going have the best adoption strategies um and then it's going to be kind of raveling again of where the top three win so similar to how you had a react angular view that won the B like the kind of Race To top um and but you have like 15 others that kind of extinct I think that's going to happen with VMS right which is why I call it VM Wars you'll have like 15 VMS

that hopefully pop up a lot of teration a lot of great Innovation great Builders um but there's only going to be three that actually make it in the 10 20 year Horizon um and our bet is the language made by Facebook is the one that's going to win so you said that there might be you know two or three that would end up dominating the market what are some of the other ones that uh the other VMS that you're interested or bullish on I mean son is a no-brainer right I think like son has done a great job the community is like maybe the strongest Community out there um and it just makes a lot of sense paralyzation High through but fire dancers is completely re revolutionize son main net um and eclipse is doing a great job bringing salana VM to the maer

stack so I think salana VM is no brainer Choice there um and I think the last one I would say is like ZK WM um in this world where you are trying to bring new develop to space um there's a lot of developers that want JavaScript code typescript code python code rust code um and having support for all those different languages is a great v machine um so zikam has been done like aom has been done with arbitrum with stylus fluent is a great team doing ZK wum and bringing ZK wum to ethereum um so essentially neing developers write multiple languages and then compiling that down to wum um which move actually can be done so it's an interesting angle expl um and running that in the BM so so let's talk a little bit about the road

map you guys recently published your uh Parthenon road map Y and um and which details the different phases of movement so yeah walk us through the next couple of months yeah so we're look geing a for incentivized Testament launch um our DEET has been out for a while and we' kind of putting a lot of efforts towards that but now it's time to the Big Show um so paron is kind of a transparent like open source road map where we're enabling a kind of boost shopping the B Network one reason we wanted to kind of unveil this is we want a network to be eventually decentralize the permission list so we're starting off with the first phas which is this like close Source Valor boost trapping M1 Valor set

um probably 10 to 15 Val just to get the product up and then the second phase is extend the Val set to the community um so we have 100 plus valids um to kind of boost up the Valor set eventually it's going be completely permissionless so anyone can run their own Valor to participate in secet sequencing set um that transitions into launching M2 where M1 um becomes a decentralized sh sequencer to power the M2 main net rollup so by the end of this kind of test net phase you will have M2 the first move R up on ethereum powered by a completely decentralized Val set that supports both abdos and sui move as well as full even compatible um and we're doing kind of two steps so a we can

monitor progress from the community and be um always be transparent in what we're doing in terms of testment progress as well as um how we're developing as a company so M1 I want to come back to to this to M1 and and and the decentralized shared sequencer now everyone I've talked to about decentralized share sequencer has told me that they're not real um now I I haven't spent a whole lot of time I guess you know trying to understand why that is but but my understanding is basically when you have a decentralized Shar secreter you basically have another blockchain that needs itself to be sequenced we talked about this before but I I really want you to like open this up a little bit let's double click on that and and just

explain why you've solved decentralized shared sequencing while other people think that this is just a myth yeah any L1 or L2 any blockchain could be a decent Shar superc that is like the definition of consensus mechanism any consens mechanism tment um can be a decentralized Shar sequency um that it so there's been a few groups that tried Shar sequence in the past and every time you ask them they're like oh arbitr optimism will integrate our Shar sequencer then you ask anyone from arbit optimism and it's like yeah we're never actually going to really do that or it's like on the road map and they kind of put it aside the issue is there no there's no incentive for l2s to ever decentralized sequencer in today AR and base are printing money to the point where it's ridiculous at the moment right um the fees are great um the

community is great like it's it's a very profitable business so there's no reason for them to ever decentral sequencer if I'm making a million dollars a month why would I voluntarily give up that Revenue what's interesting about our model is a we're forced to do so because our fees are extremely low we'll have one of the lowest if not the lowest um fee model on the L2 so be the cheapest L2 in the market because we 5da we have a paralyzed VM of the execution level um so our Chiefs are next to nothing our fees are next to nothing so that means our sequence of fees are also next to nothing and then B we actually have embedded token model because it's our validor set that's kind of the architecture of like we have M1 and M2 is because we want to grow our own

community and own Valor set so every Valor that we have has to stake the move token to participate in sequencing fees which actually creates buy pressure and buy demand for the token because now it's like the utility is to St the token to participate sequencing um whereas for Layer Two the token model is us like governance and some no actual real value C the token whereas we have a flywheel effect where um if you're a validor from M1 you have to S the move token you get the SE in fees um additional to the emissions and you're actually incentivized to keep launching more nodes um so it's a Val effect we eventually completely decentralize The Valor set and we actually make money doing so so not only are we financially incentivized to we're forced to because

we're next gen VM um so that's kind of the market um we're attracting whereas like the traditional evm l2s um in the near near to short-term don't really want to decentralize sequencer and probably won't so most people listen to this this podcast I think are familiar with the way you run validators for uh Cosmos how is that going to be different for M1 yeah so because we come to the Snowman consensus anyone that's running an Avan validor can opt into stake our move token there's actually a few proposals coming up um that deprecate the need to St avac so you can just St a native token you don't need to take avac at all um so that's actually why we chose to build on the a system because

you can boost trp valers in a way that is pretty much unparalleled we inherit the security of existing consens mechanism um it's a quickest finale in the market um it's extremely decentralized I can run out my laptop um which is something like going back to the fire Deads for example is like a the hardare requir hardware car SL are pretty high fire dancer is even like a higher um through valid said that enables like in theory a million plus TPS um so it's like a instead of having that debacle where you have multiple Bower clients um we actually have a low Hardware requirement and anyone can run their own node and when token and when air drop for legal reasons I will not respond to

you and for your own like benefit okay well I guess I guess that's a good excuse to bring you back on when uh when you have token and a drop yeah my legal team will actually kill me if I say like that we don't want that yeah okay so uh yeah talk a little bit about the the community program yeah so I think we always like me and Cooper was my co-founder um came from a community I buil the first Dex app Us Cooper build the first eeld app us um and I think oftentimes the community is forgotten in the situations where it's like you raise a much money you have a big token um and the community is like completely forgotten a

that's like what we're try to like never do so that's why we have the decentralized Val set we want people to earnestly in fees the foundation is not going to be taking sequencing fees we're completely Distributing that back to the community um we're doing a lot of hackathons and Community initiatives focus on student groups um me and Cooper are both College dropouts so um we understand what it means to be in college and still love blockchains um but not really have the resources or education to kind of break into that I think like if you keep targeting the same developer group we as industry were never getting anywhere whereas if you can tap into web 2 Industries which is actually a big focus of both appers and suie coming from web2 traditional backgrounds um we're also in the same line going to web to audiences going to

college hackathons um and giving them the tools to launch their own web to startups um often times if you find out like these developer groups want to do something but they don't like have the resources to bandwith or like have any support um so really focus on community initiatives ambassadorships um hack funds um online initiatives to really Target um under represented in web 3 cool and how many um how many pro projects uh are currently involved in the community program I think it's we have 15 from the e system that have come from Community program um our final number is like 75 at the moment um and we're now to like three every week at this point um but yeah I think the

community program has been really cool because you see a lot of native apps pop up so like Razer is like one of my favorite wallets that popped up it's like when we first came on we didn't even know who it was like this randomly on Twitter and I lit sent him my slack I'm like guys Community progam working we did it we did it um I think that's the best feeling like anyone can go pay like a big wallet group like a million dollars to deploy like congrats you just did what everyone else did it really feels something to have like a native random developer um who just believed the mission and went out of their way to complete inux do new smart contracts and market and Razer is like one of my favorite teams now one of my favorite wallets um and it just feels great as a

Founder yeah I installed it when I saw you Tweeting about yeah can't I'm I'm I'm looking forward to for Ledger support but um it's it's great UI cool well before we wrap up here wanted to maybe zoom out even more and ask you about you know where are you what what's your current sentiment on the the crypto Market obviously you know we had the EV ETF approval uh news last week and you know just generally I think people are very excited right now markets are up it looks like we're going to have an interesting year um yeah what's your sentiment on the current state of the market and where we're heading in the next 12 to 24 months so me and Cooper actually started the

movement idea right after the fpx thebuckle um so we like started like the project when it was like low low low like people were like exiting industry and like after that's when we started fundraising so I feel yeah man it was I mean honestly I'm like bullish on anyone who started or was involved there and still stuck it through um the move Pie has actually started as well then I think abdos launched right after FTX went and sui launched shortly after so the moving system was always Underdog like we we started in the depths of like hell U and now we're coming back up um so first of all I'm American citizen so the ETF stuff is amazing like hopefully the United States can get their stuff

together and we see a lot more institutional adoption um at the government level as well as um major Banks coming in um so that feels good just the vality thesis for Americans and the harah um for Citizens all over country um and in terms of the markets like obviously price action is going up and that's great and that drives narrative obviously um but zooming out further like we're definitely seeing a lot more institutions come in um Alish particularly has done a great job of bringing JP Morgan bringing onx initiative um stuff that people haven't thought about in the past um and we're seeing a lot more institutional adoption more gaming like this year all the big games are coming out I think it's like October November is Target dates for those launches um so it's multi like hundreds of millions of dollars poured

into web through gaming they finally launching and like everyone kind of thinks that web 3 gaming is the first um entrance of retail money so like gonzilla shrapnel are two the games I'm really excited for um on def5 side I think yeah it's no-brainer when you have more users doing like meme coins and stuff um it's obviously more deck activity um is people trying out different uxes um but I think the overall Market is trending towards next gen VMS like salana had his huge phae and people love the slot interface um even if it's for meme coining it's still better than not using the chain at all um and then move is Surly falling after so I think the move is next cycle of that great well we're definitely bullish

on on movement and on move disclaimer and op Ventures is an investor of movement and uh yeah but we're we're super pumped about uh about where you guys are are are heading and also like really sort of align with your your vision for you know an ecosystem of VMS and and we also think you know that the we also that our sentiment also is that you know the the the evm is not the be all end all and that in 10 years from now the move the VM ecosystem in crypto will be a lot different than it is now sure any rousi thanks so much for coming back on it's been great having you on again and and uh I always enjoy these

conversations I always learn so much and uh yeah look forward to having you on again in a couple months when you have lots of other great announcements to make uh maybe a token no comment at that point you can your legal team won't won't kill you if you talk about a token then I'll probably hopefully be able to do it but yeah thanks for having me on it's always a pleasure um and if you're eth Denver um stopped by Ma day we will be at eth Denver and I will stop by my to day for sure thank you guys