Mapping Digital Tribes with Nadia Asparouhova

Transcript

foreign [Music] ation on the Pod today we've got Nadia asparoa who is a personal hero of mine did a lot of work at GitHub in the mid 2010s on open source sustainability which is a coordination failure that I think Nadia's work I would be safe to say uh led to the founding of git coin for me a lot of the work that we've done at Bitcoin is built on top of the research in the thinking that came out of that era of which Nadia had a a huge part of on the Pod today we talk about mapping out digital tribes and we talk about nadi's work as a writer and a former independent researcher at protocol Labs Nadia is not crypto native

but she is an author a thinker and someone that I have looked up to for a long time so I think that you're really going to enjoy this episode coordination without further Ado I'll give you Nadia asparova working in web3 is awesome but working outside of the typical W-2 employee structure is a deal breaker for so many opolis is helping the self-solving worker focus on what they do best their work tax time is coming up opolis helps professionalize your business by helping you form an entity generate proof of employment through pay subs and receive a W-2 at the end of the tax year are you self-employed and forced to spend money on expensive Health Care insurance with limited coverage opolis leverages group buying power through a community employment

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Nadia how you doing good how are you I'm pretty good uh it's been a dream for a long time to have you on the podcast I think I was telling you before we were recording that a lot of my early work at git coin was inspired by your work on open source funding and sustainability at GitHub so really honored to have you have you here yeah it's awesome to get a chance to talk so um I I was doing my research at nadia.xyz for this episode and you're just so prolific you have uh thought about so many different things relating to our our present age and and I'm curious well in in figuring out where we wanted to dive in I I guess maybe I'll frame it this way what's most present for you right now

what are you spending your waking hours thinking about right now I'm spending a lot of time my head is basically around uh trying to understand Tech's growing social and political influence outside of just being a business industry outside of startups um so how we'll sort of like Tech values exit just you know living in The Enclave those Silicon Valley and starting to influence the world in these sort of bigger ways um so it has driven the direction of a lot of the things I've explored this past year got it um can can you say more about well so actually I I recently just watched a video you were on the stowa where you're giving a talk about mapping digital worlds and why it's important different methodologies for for tribe mapping so

maybe we could we could uh we could we could talk a little bit about mapping digital worlds but and then I'm curious from there what are the different tribes you think that are within Silicon Valley and Tech and its cultural influence and maybe pushing against silicon Valley's influence or tax influence in real large um yeah those are big topics but um yeah I think the the digital tribe mapping was sort of my attempt to try to hone or zoom out or articulate this kind of methodology that I find myself coming back to over and over again um I think I did versions of that with my open source research but then in the last year I've been trying to kind of refine that more which is

um so if you think about sort of like in physical spaces we have cartography we have um you know once upon a time people did not have maps of the world and they had to go out and figure out how to draw those Maps um and the act of creating those Maps also helped well both um uh extend power over communities that were maybe like not wanting to be mapped or were now on someone's map and could now be sort of like cataloged and measured and tracked uh but also I think like legitimize power for even those kinds of communities and groups where um if you're on a map you mean something right and I think looking at sort of like digital spaces and I really do believe there's like you know like the digital world is

um uh on this sort of like parallel journey to where the physical world was um I see it as you know equal or greater in importance um there are very few maps about some of the most important things in our digital spaces right now um communities that kind of go unseen or untracked or not understood um and I don't mean tracking in the sense of putting them on a you know dashboard and measuring their I don't know Community member growth or something like that not that kind of tracking but just um when you see these kinds of communities enter mainstream political conversations or um or reported on the news like there's just like a clear lack of understanding of what what they even are I think the most prominent example right now is around

um seeing sort of like affected altruism and a lot of ideas that came from sort of rationalist community now start to break into the mainstream like for me it has been a trip to see a laser you know reference now and like very mainstream media um but people are constantly trying to put them in these buckets of the like physical analog world of you know Left Right liberal conservative whatever um and it's confusing and it's inaccurate and I think we could do a much better job and figure out how to map these digital territories in a way that is legible to other people um but I think that's still uh it's it's you know similar but different in some ways to physical mapping and that was the methodology I was trying to sort of unpack

um in that talk that you mentioned yeah well you know the thing I I feel about physical mapping is that a picture is worth a thousand words and you can look at a map of a territory and understand so much that it would take words and words of text in order to do and uh unfortunately I can't share screen in order to show it but your your talk at the stoa has lots of examples of mapping out digital spaces as though there are physical spaces and it lends to a lot of understandability I think with those spaces so we'll link that in in the show notes so that people can people can check it out cool um I'm wondering um so how that how that applies to your your current thinking about tax influence on the world if if there was a map of of tech and its

changing influence on the world with which which Maps uh help you understand that the best and and how do you sort of conceptualize that how is that how is that research going um yes like I think like within the world of tech you can just maybe starting starting there um there are a lot of um let's say like intellectual movements or communities that have informed a lot of people's values in Tech and downstream of that you know people have created companies influenced by those values or they um yeah have sort of like spread those ideas in various forms um and so yeah you think about um the effect of altruism being kind of one of those or I think maybe more specifically

um professionals committee being kind of one of the origins of that but there's a lot of other other versions of that I think like progress and progress studies and um the notion of just sort of like creating abundance is like another one of those influential communities in recent years um and so I've been trying to kind of both understand the shape of each of those those movements um and then also understand like how they what do they have in common and how are they also like influencing what tech means and how we even like articulate it to the rest of the world to someone who's not in Tech um and they're you know I think a lot of things that people take for granted working in Tech that are not well understood by Outsiders um and so yeah I think there's like you

know one aspect of that of just trying to map out like what are all these different driving forces or pockets of um idea generation that are that have existed in Tech and are continuing to influence it um I wrote a piece last year called um I think it was called idea machines but this notion of like a framework of how people turn ideas into outcomes and how an idea machine in my sort of conception of it is um composed of a few different pieces but like there's like a community and that Community starts to articulate its values um but with the presence of like funders can lead to those ideas start turning into an agenda which turns into action Etc so um so that has been sort of one piece of just like articulating those

ideas are serving as an engine for driving progress and change um but then zooming out more broadly I I guess I've been looking in particular at sort of like what is the status quo right now of how we talk about particularly I think in my my case or in my interests like American values um what does what does America care about right now um how do we act accordingly to those values and um and where does Tech fit into that and I see right now there's like a sort of growing conflict between two generations of um of of values I guess um that are driven by the elites or the beneficiaries of each of those values

um and so on the one hand you have the sort of um Wall Street Finance like davosian um set of values that cropped up in them towards the end of the 90s with the birth of the internet that um has one way of looking at the world and has really influenced a lot of our public institutions right now media Academia government and then you have sort of like Silicon Valley as the rising Challenger to that in some ways or at least some pockets of it are which have like a different set of values um uh and and sort of like you know where are those clashes starting to happen as um I would hope that someone in Tech who really loves Tech um that those values can be also encoded into our public institutions but I don't

see that happening as much as I would like it to right now um yeah wow that was amazing there's so many places everyone else yeah and um you know knowing you I'm sure there'll be a book or a blog post where if people want to learn more they they can but uh what comes up for me is um you know when I almost felt like as you were speaking that I was feeling a meditation on tribalism and how tribal uh the internet has become over its of all Evolution over the last several years in the power centers and and to me when I think about American values my first idea of the polarity comes from Maga uh what I'm gonna reductionistly call the make America great the right and then the left which I think would

pejoratively be called the woke by the right and those are kind of like the tribal Echo chambers that uh people consume different news they have different common knowledge they have different value sets and so it's interesting for me to hear you say that the the New York Elite and the Silicon Valley Elite are sort of the opposite tribes and to me I want to transpose that into almost like a two by two Matrix of uh woke Mega Silicon Valley Wall Street slash Davos and this is only mapping the elite of course there's there's people who are outside of the elite and and um yeah I I guess what's what's your reaction to that I guess we're talking about where there's Capital uh uh tribalization not just like social value tribalization here

yeah um well I guess I'm trying really hard to avoid getting embroiled in sort of like the political culture wars yeah because I think there's something much deeper going on um and I think the reason why I've sort of focused on like Elites as you know as as this sort of driving but often under discussed form of cultural um force behind cultural Productions I think we talk a lot about sort of like Bottoms Up like Grassroots movements as driving cultural production historically but we ignore that like you know a lot of those movements were funded by like other people with interest um and I think like the ways in which people make their money really influence how they care about sort of like enterprising World

um and so I think like for me it's less about sort of like Maga versus Wilk or something like that and more about like how do you think change happens in the world um so like the Davos group I think is much more focused on like globalism for example and so it's like taking whatever the best of America is at the time I think it's like you know liberal democracy and spreading that throughout the rest of the world and it's sort of like this maternalistic view of like we have the best form of government we're just going to sort of like repeat it everywhere else um whereas I think what we see from a lot of people in Tech is that like America is the place America is the place where like we are supposed to be attracting the very best of talent and we're giving those like one single

location that benefits from these Network effects to uh to to bring everyone to one place and so that naturally leads to where in Davos case it's sort of like de-emphasizing America it's de-emphasizing um this sort of like national identity in favor of this like uniform Global identity that kind of like papers over what makes different cultures distinct or unique um on the the Silicon Valley side of things I think it is actually like revitalizing America and bringing a focus back to to you know America as and I've written about this with the um Network State piece but um Amer whether it's literally America or it's some metaphor of like a single place where people come to or a single reference point that everyone has as like this is a place where you can go

to like have undounded opportunities to have unconstrained ambition to like explore your ideas to the fullest um and that to me that's not really like a political a purely political difference in the sense of you know Democrat Republican kind of politics but it's much more like how do you actually think the world changes um and similarly I think there there's also something around like um this sort of founder mindset of uh startup culture that really leads us to prize like individuals um versus the sort of um efficient measurement kind of oriented uh mindset of Finance types that leads them to be more like um to to just sort of like prize like

institutions and systems amazing um you know the the meme that came to my mind as you were saying saying that was a Ronald Reagan's meme of a shining City on a Hill America is a shining City on the hill like a shelling point for talent and capital and stuff like that and that I wonder if if you think that's a fair meme to apply to the Silicon Valley Talent magnet Vision that that you just articulated yeah I mean I would like us to have some something that is a shining City on the hill right um and again I see America is almost like a metaphor for that but like you go anywhere in the world and people will say like you know America is the place to go right like we all globally have some understanding of like there is a place I can go where

maybe my maybe my peers around me sort of like discourage my my ideas or tell me that I should just you know put my head down and focus on my you know boring job that is really unfulfilling but like I know if I go to America like that opportunity is unlocked somehow um and whether America is living up to that right now is like a separate question but I think it's important that we all have that like shared belief in a place um and I think it is possible that in some future iteration of this then it may not be literally America the nation state but it's like America in some like digital form that transcends a physical location I don't really know what that looks like eventually but okay well you know I'm wondering if um well this

is a podcast that goes out to people who are into crypto and who are focused on crypto for social good environmental good and and sort of like Community good which I know that the crypto space is is not known for so we're sort of like a niche within a niche region crypto and I guess I'm wondering not because this conversation needs to be crypto focused but I just want to like place it on the map where you think crypto and decentralized finance fits between in the in the white space between these two Elites or you know where where it is in the taxonomy for you if anywhere at all well I think or I hope at least then um I think it's still an early evolving conversation but I hope that it is maybe like the third piece in that timeline um

if we had you know to me like sort of the Davos light is the past or in Decline I think the like Silicon Valley version of that is ascendant or sort of in the current conversation and I think the future of that might look like whatever that sort of transition is to America as a digital state or network state or whatever you want to call it um and the only way to really break out of these like physical territories and into these like digital territories is to have something to start building a system that exists independently of this sort of like geopolitical constraints that we're currently bound to right um and yeah to me like the things that I'm excited about with crypto are um the promise of

building like you know we were talking about digital maps in the beginning of this conversation but really starting to like lay down that Foundation of like how do we start mapping that territory how do we monetize that territory how do we build a system and um of yeah institutions that can support that entirely new territory whatever that is yeah well you know the there I'm most excited about there is funding our Global public goods so there's no nation state that you know nation in America we have people focused on our National Defense our national infrastructure but there's no one focused on global coordination failures like um AI alignment or open source software I know you've done a lot of work on open source software we're just going to be able to scratch the surface of it here but uh maybe that's a threat I'll pull

because my work at Bitcoin was focused on how do we use crypto to build um Global public good funding and I know that you that's a problem that you've you've studied back in the early 2010s and um you know that's kind of where I think the the place that crypto crypto fits and I wonder if you have any pushback or comments on that um not necessarily I think I think I'm still trying to and maybe you can help me understand this I think I'm still trying to process the um like what are the learnings that came from essentially like monetizing open source which

I think a lot of the Krypton web 3 experiments made possible um from my vantage point when I was looking at open source and sort of like yeah it was kind of like mid to late 2010s um I was standing with kind of like one foot in traditional open source world let's call it or like open source I say traditional but I just mean like open source that really wants nothing to do with crypto um yeah most open source unfortunately right and and in the time that I that I wrote um working in public and published that um I didn't include anything about sort of like that next Generation because it has it was just starting right um and and then you see like all these

experiments start to play out and I it was interesting for me coming in like a couple of years before then where everyone is talking about funding issues in open source and wouldn't it be great if we could support maintainers and have this more like sustainable system to support them yeah and then the solution kind of comes along that is a little you know different and out there but like it is an interesting experiment and I was sort of like elated and excited to see like you know how it open source developers react to that and um the reaction was very you know sort of like side-eyed suspicions and lukewarm um and the answer I think really just comes down to like their two different cultures that mix like you know oil and water and it but like I think part of me as being

kind of more of an outsider just looking at experiments I was a little disappointed in that because I was hoping that there would be more cross-learning between them so um yeah maybe just like turn the question back to you but like do you do you feel that there were learnings that came from all those experiments that like maybe traditional open source developers should have learned from or do you have a different take as to like why those two cultures just like didn't mix at all yeah well uh my first comment uh which is maybe a little bit of a post is oh so there's two different cultures if only someone was uh mapping out digital tribes so we could figure out how they relate to each other and uh you know look yeah sorry I didn't mean to catch off oh no I said should post received got it

yeah there you go um but you know what's the GDP of let's call it web 2 era open source versus web3 open source and what are the cultural differences between them and how do these two Network states which I'm using the word network State here how do they trade with each other and are there are they allied with each other um is is sort of the framing that I put that in in my head and um you know from I I guess I I know that I'm known as like this web3 guy and like this Optimus guy but I really think it's important to be adversarial when you're being optimistic there are times where cryptos just people over I mean look at FTX 3ac it's it's not popular or right now and I think that like the best thing

crypto could do right now is Channel talent and resources and capital from the degenerative projects the things that that blew up and and caused people a lot of heartburn into like the regen stuff the people that's the stuff that's going to fund public goods the things that are going to fund The Commons in our communities and um I guess my first thing that I would say to someone who is outside of the crypto space who might be an open source maintainer um is just don't throw out the baby with the bath water you get one bad website you don't throw out the whole the whole web uh same thing with crypto if you get a couple bad crypto projects don't throw out all of crypto I mean you could even actually argue that like 70 of crypto is trash but I would still say don't don't

throw away the 10 of people who are earnestly hard working trying to create a better future with the technology that they view is is fundamental and that would be sort of my starting Framing and I'm curious what's your reaction to that yeah that's I mean that is what I tell people all it is funny because because I kind of see both worlds a little bit like you know I will talk to people who are just they think the whole thing is over at this point and they're just like see those just like it's not even a question of mine they've just moved on and I'm just very surprised when I hear that I'll just kind of be like yeah I mean I like to me like weirdly when a space is extremely noisy and when it is filled with a lot of skins like that is

actually a sign of its legitimacy because people don't flock like crazy towards something that has zero opportunity in it um like there's something interesting going on there and I also just think like the talent ecosystem because I'm always looking at like people and trying to understand like how like key people are you know moving moving mountains um like the fact that there is an entire separate and thriving like Talent ecosystem that is dancing around these problems to me says that like it's not going to just go away um there's something very interesting and different happening there so um so yeah I mean I I definitely share share the view of like you know there's always ups and downs but I I my conviction has not changed whatsoever in terms of over the last couple of years that's good to hear

um yeah and so you know and then so once we've gotten to a point of okay don't throw out the baby with a bath water then I start telling people to look at how artists are monetizing their work in nfts and they're able to make more off of a single nft than they do off of 10 000 Spotify plays or how open source maintainers can receive hundreds of thousands of dollars from quadratic funding retroactive public goods funding um proof of humanity has 10 000 people that are receiving Ubi through it and there's people in the global South who are living off of off of that and um you know for me I like to just highlight the impact Dallas that I think are actually having positive impact and hopefully we can as we rotate the capital and attention and talent from

the multi-billion dollar projects that imploded what are the ways that we can stimulate a more regenerative crypto ecosystem and people who are actually having impact and make the market actually reward that is is is kind of where I spend my time so you know I'll be curious if you have any any reaction to that I know you're not deeply in the space but um any advice for us or any comments on that um no I'm not sure anything sort of like pops out I do okay yeah I do Wonder like if how much like yeah I think maybe just going back to the like I think these are just parallel words that are just going to continue to develop in parallel and I'm not sure how much like traditional open source is going to

benefit from a lot of these new like I think is that question of like do you work with the existing system or use like break it on building one um and I kind of feel like it better in this case to just build the new system um uh instead of trying to sort of like square peg around hold it um and yeah so I don't know that's just something I'm thinking about yeah okay well I want to get uh I want to get back to the Silicon Valley in New York Davos polarity and in a second but before but while we're camping on the crypto Network State stuff I just have to say that um you wrote I still haven't had a treatment of biology's network State thesis that resonates and I'm wondering if we could unfurl that a little bit

because I think the network State decentralization thing is understanding your position on that is is pretty key for me before we go back to the New York Silicon Valley thing so uh why did you write that and what about it what would have to be true for the network State thesis to resonate with you yeah um well yeah I mean I've I yeah I think like um like apologies entire set of views on the world is a little bit of this like noise thing we're talking about where there's a lot that you could there's a lot to take in there and I don't necessarily agree with everything in there but like to me the network State thesis has always had a seed of

something that is feels very important to me deep in my heart um and I think it does maybe go back to this like love of American values that I have and my feeling that it sort of embodies it somehow despite the fact that biology himself is very bearish on America and you know um left left he emigrated um to Asia and so uh he himself would not share that but then when I read his work and I read the things that he says about their state I can't help but feel that it's like touching on my heartstrings in that same sort of way so yeah I really wanted to find a way to reconcile this feeling of you know I don't necessarily agree with everything in the network state or about the network thesis in its most literal form but there's some part of it that

really resonates strong with me that I very yeah just like deeply believe and I think it is this this Evolution that we were talking about of um uh yeah going through these different generate I mean even before America you have like the British Empire um which was like the dominant place where you know culture was built and disseminated and then you had America as this Colony that broke out that no one really thought much of or didn't it didn't take very seriously until like well into the industrial revolution um well into the 20th century uh where America just had to like create all that itself and that's happened once right and it can happen again um and yeah I think there's something with sort of like the digital Revolution

then where like it's happening but it's happening solely where I don't know what that next iteration looks like but I feel like America the nation state is ready to evolve into like whatever that next form is um and so yeah that's why I wrote the piece just to sort of parse that out unless I'm I think I'm less compelled by sort of like specific instantiations of networks I I think it just it takes a lot of gravitational pull to create a new network State and I don't think that will be created around sort of like personal preferences or lifestyle choices or things like that but I think wherever like at any point in global there will there will be some reference

point like I was saying earlier about how like you go anywhere in the world like people understand what America means um but maybe it won't be America the United States of America anymore at some point but it will be something else we always need that like point of like Shared Hope or belief that there's like a place you can go where that is true um and so yeah I think there's there's some some insight there around like what that next stage could look like beautiful yes uh great to hear sort of how you digest the concept and in your criticism of it and I know maybe maybe it'll be our uh goal to to get you out to a public goods Network State uh at some point over the next 20 years but um anything else to say about crypto or

network States before we jump back to the New York Silicon Valley dichotomy um nope I don't think so okay um I'm wondering if you could if you could steel man and straw man the argument for the New York Davos and the Silicon Valley World Views is is that a fair ask this is how I think about it um in my mind like steel man is straw man for both both polarities yes and no um in the sense that like I don't think I to me it's just like history is moving forward right so it's like to me it's not about like one is better versus the other I actually think like the Davos mindset was really perfect for a certain time in history it was perfect for the

end of the 90s early early 2000s not just similar to sort of like the early promise of Open Source and how that has sort of evolved and changed over the last 20 years um you know there's a time for it and now I just think we're in a different time and it's clearly not resonating with anyone anymore um so you know we just need to accomplish something new um so in that sense yeah I don't I don't think either worldview needs to be sort of like defended or not I just sort of I want to observe what is happening and I kind of feel like it's almost like a descriptive thing of like I think we're just moving into a new era um the the the cases that I will make for on on both sides is I do think Silicon Valley still has a lot to learn

from the Davos Elite in terms of what to do well um I think the Davos Playbook was like good in that they understood the value of and it took time but they understood the value of like building allies and relationships across all these different sectors of um of public society and they understood that you know if you want to get things done in politics you need to make friends with people in government um you need to like you know build a network of journalists and academics who like understand your values right and it what I see in on the sort of like Silicon Valley side of things specifically for like the county I

shouldn't really say Silicon Valley because it's sort of like a subset of that but I see a lot of people that are upset at the status quo who kind of Define themselves in opposition to the status quo um but I think like everyone is still really stuck in this idea that like startups are the way and like the way that we spread our values is by building more businesses that just break institutions or embody those values but not understanding that like Tech also needs allies in all these different sectors um and I think this speaks again maybe you know to this sort of like intangible value of public goods um and of the public sector that like is often misunderstood by people that are just like hyper focused on on business that

um you know it doesn't matter if you build the biggest literally like biggest biggest companies in the world um in the tech backlash were sort of beaten down by like regulators and by the media and um you know people thought Google was Untouchable for so long and then suddenly it sort of just has to comply with and and be at the mercy of of people that it was once maybe more in like opposition to um so yeah I think like businesses are not infallible unless like that alone does not really change things and I think the silica Valley story kind of kind of proves that out you need to understand how to like yeah build relationships with other other pieces of the public sector and and think about these sort of like intangible public goods like

um like yeah in in sort of like Media or Academia and government um to actually spread and spread what you care about it's sort of an interesting framing you're you're framing of um of of Davos being sort of in Decline and of the 90s and Silicon Valley being ascended and uh of the 2020s kind of reminds me of this this idea of the fourth turning uh Ray Dalia's most recent book about the changing World Order and just how Empires rise and fall and so um that's that's the mental model that came up in in my head you know I guess I'm just wondering a is that a fair mental model to do to have and B in like 10 can you paint us a

picture of like if current trends continue current course in speed what how does the world differ in 10 years from now let's call let's say I invite you back on the green pill podcast in 2033 uh and Silicon Valley has continued its ascendance Tech has considered its descendance can you paint me a picture of that yeah um I'll start with the first part um the framework that has where things kind of finally clicked for me was um Carlotta Perez's technological revolutions and financial Capital um where she describes how like new technology uh leads sort of like growing Financial interests and participation and then there's sort of like this crazy noisy frenzy period and then there's a

crash and then like at some point the sort of ascendance overtake the incumbents and they start to set their um like cultural norms in place um they start to spread their influence on the world and then eventually the cycle begins again and she sort of maps um this pattern happening across like Industrial Revolution or Auto Revolution um she kind of stops the information revolution I'm not sure that she would necessarily agree with my characterization of what is happening right now but that framework of like new technology drives like in simplified terms a ton of money being made and then the people with a ton of money now have this power or that they need to defend an answer for and the sort of like defensive reaction to that is to say

okay what do we actually stand for and I think you see this kind of playing out almost exactly with what happened with startups where like pre-2016 everyone loved Tech everyone loves startups um and then something flipped what flipped was I think like textured become powerful enough to become a threat um and then there was like this strong backlash and now there's sort of like a struggle for power happening um that I hope that my the sort of like Silicon Valley mindset will emerge from and and sort of like take its place as sort of like the next stewards of public Society um so yeah I mean I think like in in 10 years if that goes well then I would hope that Tech builds a lot more friendships and relationships outside of

um its own industry and doesn't just see itself as yet another industry player um as you know yet another business sector um I hope that they learn the importance of um yeah I would love to see like you know I would love to see mainstream books that like published by large Publishers that actually tell stories about tech that are accurate and interesting and not just sort of you know I think like most of the Tech books we have now are still they're like business books right or it's about sort of like Founders but or it's about failed Founders or scammy Founders or like it's just like sensationalized stuff that um it doesn't actually really spread the values of tech it's just sort of like

regurgitating or like reanimating this like zombie corpse that has not really changed very much over the last 20 years it's like the same archetype that and a story that's being told over and over again um I would hope that we see more like Tech friendly politicians because right now we really don't have that many um and we've seen just sort of like yeah embarrassing examples of this over and over again that the people that are making policy like don't understand Tech at all um so yeah I would just hope to see a much more optimistic picture of that in in 10 years that um that shows that those values are being encoded into more places than just in startups okay amazing well I'm wondering if

there's anything I didn't ask they they that you want to say um you never have anything that comes to me okay well um I really enjoy your blog not eat at XYZ so I hope you continue putting out content and Publishing and I think you have this really sort of articulate way of describing Trends in society and in the world uh that I've learned a lot from I'll put a link to your blog and the book that you that you wrote about uh working in public in the show notes and definitely would recommend those to everyone in the audience and um you know thank you for everything that you do Nadia I think you're an inspiration to a lot of us thanks for having me yeah all right cheers

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