Making Blockchains More Useful for Mainstream Adoption

Transcript

hey y'all so I uh not a huge crowd so we'll keep it personal I'm Carlos Charlie Marketplace on Twitter um we're probably going to talk about all kinds of things but we'll just start with who we are our backgrounds and kind of why we're talking about blockchain adoption would love to just keep questions coming so just any random thoughts you have say your name would love to follow you guys on Twitter too and uh yeah let's just have a good conversation uh I'm Carlos and this is helina hello guys thank you for being here yes my name is helina um I'm leading emerging Tech Partnerships at ice Adu I Adis is a um Tech in incubator um accelerator Hub that started 13 years

ago in Africa um and uh actually yeah me and Charlie were just also talking about this sorry Carlos um so when we started actually a co-working space at Tech Hub internet penetration was less than 1% and of course obviously like how can you think about starting a tech Hub when people don't even have access to Internet um yeah so it was it was definitely not easy of course because we also wanted to focus more on you know the digital products that uh startups had ideas on um yeah but now 13 years later internet penetration is 30% still very low um yeah but you know we also do a lot of work uh on in web 3 now um also

training uh community building so we'll we'll talk a bit more about that later and and for my background uh I'm a data scientist at Flipside crypto probably heard of our competitor Dune they're the top dog right now but we're coming up um we do data infrastructure we actually do node management we do all kinds of stuff for the entire life cycle of crypto projects um my focus is on Research so really trying to get to The Cutting Edge of like how do you use the data that's being generated by blockchains to help these blockchain grow um so I mean hearing Ethiopia and hearing about you know Tech in Africa I think you had some stuff with cardano right yeah we love to hear some examples about like how you all are using

blockchain in these more difficult technological environments yeah absolutely um yeah so yeah we did work with cardano um you know cardano had a presence in Ethiopia um you know they worked a a lot on uh training developers so then you know these developers can create uh local solutions for local problems um so I mean mostly I work um you know Partnerships on the community side and you know what I have definitely seen is you know they're not only in web 3 but also you know other organizations whether's in development um you know they are coming with Solutions already built somewhere else and it just doesn't fit to the local context you know so um

it's it's very important that uh you know you have local Solutions that are made by local people because they know the problems that they are facing and how to fix them so speaking about cardano so you know one of the the biggest um projects they had there which I'm sure a lot of you heard about was um actually creating digital identity for students so um you know in Africa um there uh is a lot of um trust issue as you can see so not only even from abroad but also within so um a lot of people either have fake credentials and they get jobs or even when they do have real credentials um you know they really have to work a lot on proving like you know

that they did go to school and and have this degree so this is one one problem that cardano is going to solve with their with their digital ID starting in in like you know the elementary school because it it's a program with Ministry of Education but this is also going to go along later on to um you know help um you know maybe get lending you know you can see actually okay these people are making this amount of money so they can get loans they can pay back um another solution also um cardano worked on that that was really amazing is um you know uh basically um giving liquidity and lending to smmes so let's say uh you know uh some women has a small shop

somewhere and uh you know she obviously doesn't have a lot of money to stock up uh on whatever she needs to buy so they they they created this solution to give credit and it really helped because so I mean the banks uh when we talk about like people are un banked they're really unbanked and so the banks there mostly only give loans to Big organizations and to you know someone that has a small shop they're not going to give any loans so this is one great solution um yeah and then I'll say one more because I know we don't have a lot of time um another really great solution was um also they're creating a solution for and this is not in Ethiopia actually and Kenya um so they're they're working with um the uh basically to create Land Land

Titles on the blockchain because in Kenya there's huge problem with um you know like uh fake titles and someone conflicts I mean it's it's funny because I mean I'm from Puerto Rico and it's similar to a lot of other countries in like the South you know South America too and Caribbean it's like oh yeah that's my grandpa's land the only person who knows that's true is like his Uncle who gave it to him before any paperwork because it was before Spain gave Puerto Rico to the United States so like it's like it's all over the world that you just don't know what's true um so it's really interesting to hear that I'm curious to hear about like so you said like the um thees what what is that small medium Enterprises yeah yeah yeah exactly so um

the small medium Enterprises it's obviously a word we use because of the development agencies but yeah so anyone that you know is a has a small business so uh whether it can be your like I said Mom and Pop shops or it could also be someone um you know selling air time to flip it or um someone just doing any home deliveries you know just a small business um so yeah this is this is what I'm talking I'm curious to hear like um you mentioned internet adoptions very low and I what I've read is that um you know there's actually like not a lot of broadband in these emerging markets that it's all mobile first and for me being from the United States like I have the exact inverted crypto

experience I'm curious to hear from you guys like do you have a private key on you right now just curious do you have a metamask or anything on your phone that has a private key okay my OBC background in government is I would never do that like I I wouldn't leave 20 mile radius of my house with a private key and then you hear these merging markets we like of course that's the device that's the device so I'm curious to here like how has that framework affected how you all are doing your startups and things like that like being mobile first versus like maybe the opposite um so for us um um it it hasn't really affected it so much in terms of the work we do uh but um I think what it affects more is um so for

example schools are not connected so obviously every child is not going to have a moob mobile phone right um but yeah for sure I mean you definitely have like slower internet and things like that but I think the most uh community that is impacted I would say are the students because actually we we also kind of tried to see how uh with working with Ministry of Education like how many schools were connected all over Ethiopia and it was like the number is ridiculous only like maybe in the main cities is where uh there is actual infrastructure um so um and Al so education is important so I think they're the ones that are more

affected versus the startups maybe I'm just curious to hear you is there any questions that you all have about what you think the future of blockchain adoption is going to be in any of these contexts otherwise I can give you a rant about the importance of data and why it's so hard years are we still going to care about blockchain in five years or will it be a background technology I'm the person who disagrees with everybody I think it's going to be so front-facing I think it's going to be the way that people are like

oh I have an iPhone I have an Android and this a start contrast than how your digital experience is if you like earlier if you were the fashion talk to be on the threads app Facebook Twitter you had to have an iPhone if you have an iPhone you get a text message from an Android you get a green text right and these little differences do have like a lot of stream like Downstream effects on like how you experience devices how you expect to interact with applications um so I I think it'll be front and center I actually do I think the chain that the chain you prioritize the virtual machine you prioritize I think it will maybe not be top of mine like I don't think I'll be like Oh I'm on evm you're on salana that's crazy but I do think it would have a very big impact on like how you

experience common digital things what do you think um I I agree with you um I do think that uh it's going to be really adopted um by a lot of people and um yeah I don't think that blockchain is going away it's here to stay crypto is here to stay um I mean especially I mean I'm talking more also from what I see in in the you know in in the market or the area I live in um so when we talk about for example when we talk about crypto adoption in you know countries like Nigeria Kenya and you know also Ethiopia um for one um you know that wouldn't

happen if there there wasn't a peer-to-peer system right PTP because onramp off-ramp is hard and also um I mean besides binance and a few others of course like for example coin you cannot have a coinbase account even like with your ID from you know Ethiopia um yeah but and the adoption rate has been like really crazy because people are using crypto to um to basically run away from the problem that there are like inflation not only that but also um to be able to trade um Goods with people so for example in Ethiopia it's there's a huge currency um foreign currency

shortage and there was a shortage of medicine like even like diabetes medicine you know and then people are like then you know binance also started um operating there just P2P and then people are actually like oh okay there's this solution so we can actually send crypto to you know um this import the people were importing from in China or wherever else you know so um people are seeing it more and more um yeah and also I mean and one other um application I really like uh company is fwn Bank you know they're using basically airtime um as a way to you know get crypto top up or whatever and you know I mean people are already used to this because of like

for example with Mesa and AirTime people were already used to sending each other money using airtime right because it was much easier um um so what is air time like uh air time when you're buying credit for your phone so you can use have calls and interesting so so you're seeing people kind of tokenize other things that are not necessarily crypto and using that as like an intermediary exactly yeah uh yesterday there was was a talk um from bitr I don't know if any of you went to that one where they kind of said like oh one of the most popular things we're doing with crypto right now is you use crypto to buy gift cards which eliminates a lot of problems around off- ramping because you off-ramp to like a

single intermediary who then just gives you company money essentially on this gift card and there's a very interesting argument especially from like um not Blackstone the other one black rock uh and Larry Fink the CEO there he's like oh we're going to tokenize everything um and I I'm very curious about that future where like oh it's not just everybody using eth and it's not everybody using usdc it's every single company having their gift card tokenized and you just switch to them and it's seamless so I'm curious to hear about like a little bit more about airtime and like what you're seeing like how what what currencies are people using on the ground that are not crypto or not stable coins or not you know Ethiopian

currency um yeah I mean for example example um grains you know farmers use grains for means of exchange um like grains like a flour like T like what's a grain we have in Ethiopia like Foods stable Foods so oh I love te I I eat inir all the time I love video food okay perfect yeah um but um yeah I think airtime would have to be used a lot because everyone has their phone um I would have to say that in in terms of like when we are going to talk about what would might be relevant for crypto but yeah like Goods people use Goods as as money yeah now works one question for

you relating the offring solutions there are right now in Ethiopia for example I I'm very familiar with with PESA in Kenya for example Tanzania and I really saw it as a way of like escaping the banks and people can easily transfer money from peer to peer but was always Fiat what happens in Ethiopia if you have stable coins for example that I know that maybe nobody use stable coins to as a way of paying uh you have to offramp at some point and have the proper Fiat companies are being like pressed by

the government to do any kind of kyc or something similar that at that moment maybe they get tax and they are not interested anymore H how how is that working or how what do you see the the future there um yeah I think I said a bit about this earlier so I people are using more peer-to-peer um uh in Ethiopia actually um you cannot really onramp on offramp uh for let's say like for binance like cuz the banks just don't want to right uh so people use peer-to-peer but I think maybe a better example I can give you is about Nigeria so Nigeria in the beginning you know um the banks were like okay with with this right but then the government

started cracking down and so when people were actually even like sending and receiving money the banks would freeze it you know it just wouldn't go and you might think someone is like also us scamming you um but yeah so people have just turned to peer-to-peer so you just yeah you just um have uh you know like I mean people mostly trust binance um also now bundle is pretty big there but uh yeah so just peerto peer and at the moment you need kyc in binance yes yeah yeah you do okay and there is not any friction there um no because I mean what I've seen is um for example even in Ethiopia you know in the beginning you couldn't really um get kyc

on binance unless you have like an actual passport right an Ethiopian passport they can read that and many people don't really have passports they just have the um you know like the local ID and it's in Amharic or like the other many languages we have and you couldn't use that but now they you can they they actually you know started working with a local company to to basically be able to you know kyc the local ID so a lot more people are are using it so um but yeah thank you so much um my question is around what you just addressed um initially like you spoke about Nigeria

there was a lot of onboarding people were excited about um using cryptocurrencies but then at some point the government came in and then decided to shut down most of them or even all of them even binance at some point lost their license s and if we are moving to a stage where we want to still encourage people to adopt crypto to do all those informal activities what kind of practices do you think we should put in place for example um a few months ago in Nigeria for as an instance the government placed some limits on cash withdrawals and that forced even the traders in informal markets to go create bank accounts and then they now assess

online payments in the markets so how can we create a culture in the crypto space or in the blockchain space where people can see this kind of seamless onboarding even if it has to be kyc how do we reach they unbanked for instance in this case the UN crypto kind of people um okay actually I yeah actually I really like the question you asked because this is something I always think about and um but it's not only for onboarding like for crypto usage but I think what what we need to do is um focus on um like for example training developers I mean so um you

know we mentioned cardano earlier but I mean we we pretty much work with many other organizations not only web 3 web two to kind of help like what what I was talking about with like creating a local solution instead of already coming with one so I think what we need to do is we need to really focus on the local developers and help them create you know whether it's D apps or anything you know um because they're the ones that will know what their Community is facing and and they can come up with creative and good Solutions right so yeah and and maybe going in the exact opposite direction because I I agree like the ideal scenario is local first like if people like crypto's digital cash right like the EXP the whole thing is digital

cash like I can hand you €2 right now and the government doesn't have to know and I can do the same thing with eth and that pisses off a lot of people um so I mean what do I expect will actually happen I expect there'll be like two kind of paths and they'll go in parallel for a bit you'll see random people say I have a circle account or I have a tether account and I take usdc through the main app circle is an app that most people don't even use they use the coin they don't have the app I'm one of them um and there will be that experience Tron for example has 5 billion in usdt it's like the most popular chain in the world for transferring stable coins usdt it's like the remittance chain for Central America um we will see that we will see

like random people just coales around certain coins and infrastructure but we're also going to see the exact opposite and it's hard to think about but Visa will have a layer two it'll probably be an optimism Layer Two MasterCard will have a layer two JP Morgan um Bank of America all the multinational corporations will have layers that they completely control and control sequencers on and they will settle on a variety of layer ones they probably won't build their own layer one because there's a lot of problems with fragmenting um liquidity when that happens that's when we get to the point of like some of the stuff's just in the background you're using your credit card to swipe and you don't know that this person is in the Visa layer 2 program so instead of a 3% take rate on the credit

card it's a half a% take rate and the merchants love it and what's going to happen is is that the spread on some of these businesses are going to get so tight because blockchain's so good at the settlement problem and if you follow that train of thought well you're actually going to experience is oh I'm not even I'm a whole class of people won't ever have metam metamask their Bank app will just be that much better they won't have rainbow wallet they won't have uh all any of these things the the current system will just become so much better they won't have to and that is going to clash like local people doing local things without kic is going to run directly into multinational corporations who are now 10 times more efficient faster better the apps are

better transfers are instant and I don't know who wins that battle but people are like they're they're kind of stuck in the present day thinking and they're not realizing when Visa decides to spend a billion dollars integrating their Layer Two into their payments infrastructure a billion people will not download metamask like that's the effect no I don't I think cbdcs are going to fail um mostly because there's so much money in having the spread of like like like I said Visa takes 3% right now um the New York Stock Exchange NASDAQ whatever they take like a few bips which is 1 1,000th of a percent like there's

so much money in the spread that they will never let government completely manage like the monetary system it'll it'll end their business if the US government comes out with f fed now for regular people Visa's dead so it's not going to go that way I don't think and that's in like kind of the big corporations getting involved do you think it's going to happen in Ethiopia and Africa it's it's really hard to say uh because um I mean yeah a lot of the a lot of the um central banks are talking about this now I mean even Ethiopia is um I'm really not sure maybe is it

because of the foreign currency shortage and they think that will alleviate it or maybe is it because like of course they do get like you know kind of um uh they do get like some some like not idea sorry I can't think of the word but basically they they they work with like World Bank or IMF and they'll tell them oh listen this is the things you can do consult them so I'm not sure if it's a push from that um um I don't know I think I I would say no I don't think that cbdcs will um take over at least in um I mean that become popular or used um yeah I mean for example um I think Egypt has been saying

they're going to do this for a while and yeah I don't think I don't think so yeah it reminds me there was a if you probably saw this tweet recently cuz someone at the world economic Forum which isn't like a single organization what people kind of say it is they said oh cbts are great because governments can like prevent the transfer to known parties that sell drugs or sell pornography or sell alcohol and now everyone on Twitter is like the cbdcs are going to stop you from buying the best stuff and I'm like okay well you don't buy drugs but yeah I don't I don't think um I don't think it's going to happen the way that we are worried it will all right any random questions on random topics oh go ahead yeah maybe a bit another Direction

because I think the the overall idea was to discuss also adoption so you mentioned that there is also this idea that blockchain is basically a base layer and so uh that's a bit what what we are also considering we are currently so I'm I have to say I'm uh um working in a development Finance institution uh ger one so it's an institution that finances development projects in what we call the global South so one of the projects we are looking into is in Kenya and they use a technology called USS ussd us which is uh basically addressing people who don't even have a smartphone they only have a feature phone so it's

the technology is basically like this old short messages so no graphic display very very cheap uh phones and uh so they need specific service that Bridges basically from the crypto world into these uh into their payment World Kenya has this and PESA is a very very broadly adopted technology so maybe that's another direction of discussing uh adoption of uh digital uh distributed Leeder technology not talking about crypto but talking about uh more broadly what can the technology do and uh in

this projects we do uh Insurance uh um Services basically and the idea is that blockchain technology has a transparency basically included there is an audit Trail well if we use at least ethereum technology and and a public chain and uh it's very efficient uh the old system uh is is is a very bureaucratic system using that technology uh cuts a lot of costs so these are the main main Arguments for for using the technology yeah I I like that point a lot um so if you I don't know how technical some of you are but

if you look at how most blockchains work they have something called RPC remote procedure call and it's really funny because you know your experience in metamask or whatever is you open it up you connect to a website you click a button and it pops up with a transaction you just say yeah but what's really happening is that there's a bunch of like really annoying Json being formatted for you that's essentially texted through the same way we use the internet HTTP to a node that says hey if you format your text correctly I will do the transaction for you so when you hear like all these you know Geo which is an Indian phone that's popular in um subaran Africa and stuff like that like you can text a blockchain transaction you can actually do Bitcoin transactions

purely via radio they've tested it out and it can be done a node can pick up a radio signal that includes a private key confirmation so I I mean yeah I mean I think we're I think we are going to see a lot of standardization around how do you get the simplest possible Behavior which is like send money um to be as simple as sending a text message and I think we will see that the problem for my end uh being a data scientist who deals with like the data side is like there's not really any standardization of this stuff I mean quick node figment uh you know block Damon you you just go through the node companies and then you go through the chains 10 node companies 50 different major blockchains that's

500 different ways of submitting a transaction to a network and then for each of those networks there's multiple clients that then have to parse that out so we're talking in the order of like a thousand different ways to send a message a 100 or so for just a single blockchain so it's a very difficult problem space um to get there what are you thinking um so I mean yeah you're right right so when we're talking about adoption crypto adoption we should talk about what can be done um I don't know when you got here but I in the beginning I I mentioned briefly that you like in in in Africa the you know um why crypto was adopted this way and it didn't happen it

can it could not happen without PTP right because again there's the issue with onramp off-ramp um but then also when when people are doing P2P of course uh they're not using um you know pancak swap or whatever right but when um again I'm I have to talk about binance a lot because they they've really done so much in that region um so you know when binance comes into a market and really enables people to be able to exchange uh their you know Fiat that's really shitty too you know um stable coins and they're able to transact um but they also do that by like creating awareness um you know like training

people creating small communities because you know someone I mean unless they're they they know someone that knows about crypto um when they're having a problem to be able to import Goods or send money to someone unless there is this awareness being created it just wouldn't happen so yeah um I think awareness creation training is very important um again also um another one is what I said earlier it you really have to I know you said you don't agree with this but um uh you know creating like Solutions uh by the local people because uh you know the what a problem we have in Ethiopia is not the same problem people have in Kenya um you know

and let alone forget Nigeria which is even further away right so um I think it's very important to you know M make um these developers aware of you know blockchain technology and what they can do because they're the ones that that that can really kind of you know kill the pain that people have on on that point too about I think I agree on the importance of like the localization effect what I worry about being on the data side is that like we're doing this thing where we're like constantly repeating ourselves where like you know for example cardano use hasal um Salon use rust um ethereum used either Viper or solidity like the language that you're programming these

things and introduce debt and they introduce constraints and so like we have to get to point where one of these Technologies has to just start winning so that everyone's building on the same thing the same way because I mean I would estimate like 80 plus perc of the advancements that are happening in crypto are just duplication of effort I mean like how many amm do we need like how many Perpetual protocols do we need how many nft standards do we need and it's not just that it's hard to create them it's also hard to use them after they've been created because we can't all agree so I mean I would love to see a future of like my own bias I would love to see ethereum virtual machine the compiler part win and then everybody

else is developing locally on local like layer twos that compile to the same virtual machine um so I would love to see like a both somehow yeah um okay again yeah so when we're talking about okay people adopting crypto the fastest way that that can happen is if someone actually really needs it right so I mean um so like I said again people in Africa are are really not using crypto to trade and like you know flip their money or whatever or to buy nfts mostly I mean of course they do but mostly right but they're actually using crypto I mean the mass adoption right now the numbers are insane like I mean I I I don't know from

the top of my head but when we talk about Nigeria 140 million people live there you know and the adoption rate is crazy I don't know the exact number but um also in Ethiopia I know there was an example I mentioned earlier people are using crypto because uh like people would weren't able to import medicine so when there's a dire problem like this then people will will start using it but of course yeah all of you know these other fancy things are are also important but it depends where yeah go ahead so I wanted to speak to the issue he raised about um Tech existing Technologies like um ussd um I think there's a problem in some regions in terms of

accessibility or getting um the ability to use the best in in in Market technology if you want to use ussd for blockchain there are lots of problems that come with that especially when for instance to configure a short message code you have to go register with the government so you centralizing that and to give Nigeria as an example during the protest like two years ago people were crowd sourcing to support youths to fight for their right or to speak up but they were using Bitcoin for this what did the government do they went about looking at the accounts that receiving remittances from this crypto um wallets and when they see you sending money or

receiving money from this they block your account outrightly so even on crypto purely on crypto they could still do some of these traces then one begins to wonder if you go ussd where you have to PR register there is a central entity that can block and your messages don't even get through or the money gets deduct um deducted and it doesn't get to the end point so we can enable adoption but we can stifle assess so people are using it but they are not fulfilling the essence for which uh they adopting it so I also want us to maybe also think of um while the technology might not be a problem we might also think of other CES blockchain in itself might be good but

someone has a motive to control it for instance if it's for healthcare domain um health is a basic need that everyone needs is it possible for us to build services around this that use the blockchain but not necessarily um in it sense maybe there's a Consortium around it um maybe a bit of um let's say FDC control or the healthc care sector control or some kind of way to enable access an adoption at the same time but not to relegate um an improved technology to an existing old technology that doesn't actually fit it so that's how I would see ussd blockchain on ussd or something vice versa yeah you bring up a good

point about like credible neutrality and if you heard some other talks about like what that means right it's like oh I need to know that like if I send a valid transaction it will get put on chain um and and so helo's Point actually about like you need to have a need right like the government will seek control because it's trying to help its citizens and it's worried about things like if everyone in Ethiopia started using usdc and dollar denominated assets well guess what their foreign reserves are going to plummet which means they can't import medicine so like these Technologies are creating problems um and the answer to that is we do have to like solve the problems with this technology because guess what if ethereum was a critical

technology getting medicine imported and it did so by going direct to like wholesalers without going through you know these intermediaries it was like more it was cost effective faster and better to import medicine through blockchain then guess what these governments would completely flip they would flip to using this technology and supporting it so like we are creating problems and we have to not only stop that and also solve other problems but like yeah I mean there's a weird curve here of like it's great to this point and then it's terrible able um see I'm curious like so what that medication example um just curious what you're thinking okay no maybe yeah okay so I mean I just gave medicine as an example

but also cars or and whatever clothes anything right um but to your point actually what I want to say is why would for example the Ethiopian government not want to adopt crypto because um if people use whether people use usdc or not actually since people are not using the dollars in the in the central bank then you know the government would have more dollars right um so it's the other way around I would say uh but I mean for me it's a question of like why does the Ethiopian government not want to use crypto it just would make so much sense it would solve many problems because for example uh we have you know there's a bank exchange rate and there's we also

have what's called The Parallel market rate Black Market you know so um the reason why the Ethiopian be is is also going down is because uh you know uh when you're buying from the par parallel Market it's like double the rate literally so how are we doing on time five minutes all right let's take a few random questions before we go all right if you don't have any random questions I'm going to start talking about data go ahead how would you see some kind of a unification of Technology as what you

were speaking about earlier right so like in the uh '90s um 2000s everything kind of set it on Java right um that's what it kind of coales on to how would you see that occurring here within our space I I think there just has to be like very obvious winners right like at first when computers first came out like they had to settle on binary they had to settle on 01110 being the way that we actually use these switches on the hardware to do certain things you go up a level to like assembly you go up a level to the compilers you go up a level to the kernels and operating systems like you just had to have winners that became so obvious that people gave up on coming up

with Alternatives so like right now there's mac there's like Windows and there's like Linux and even Mac uses Linux so like we have to center around certain things that have won so much that it's not worth funding these Alternatives I do think we're going to get to a point where the ethereum virtual machine will kind of win and we'll see other chains like salana or like you know the move chains likeu and Aptos they will just kind of say oh we're going to figure out a way to get our exact code to compile to be completely compatible with this other virtual machine and that's when you start seeing things like okay everyone's going to agree at least on this one thing we're all going to agree on the ethereum virtual machine and then that opens up so much like a magnitude of

order more opportunity of innovation because you know that if you can meet this one standard it will just work for everyone else to vote on your thing and we don't have that right now like like I know so many people who are like do I learn rust or do I learn Viper do I get into salon or do I get into ethereum that's like a bad situation that you know that you're committed to one track or the other and it will and if you're wrong in 5 years you'll be a professional and a technology doesn't exist so we have to just see winners and kind of pick among them I think what do you think Alena um yeah I mean there I don't think there has to be winners but yeah we have to find a way

of like you know compatibility and making it easier for for people to um build Solutions and and yeah kind of work cross chain so awesome I think we are yeah we're like at time so any random questions or are we good to go going once going twice going Thrice okay thank you all thank [Applause] you