The Machine Native Economy: Do Digital Assets Benefit from AI?

Transcript

Good morning to all the early risers. Um, >> this is a very fun panel. Uh, I know all three of the panelists, they're obviously some of the top thinkers between AI and crypto and we're going to spitball for you guys. There's a lot of, uh, ranting probably going to happen. I'm looking at you, Alex. But uh I'd love to kind of just start with the the broader topic because when AI first started sucking all the capital out, it was the first sort of real drop we had in crypto about a year or two ago and I think that's stabilized at least in terms of momentum. Um I think at this point we're bottoming and hopefully

No, Dubby disagrees. Okay. Are we are we screwed? >> Up only. Okay, bro. like up only >> okay >> like AI is definitely up only like if you like look at like the token expenditure is definitely up only like the like the total volume of the token um it's just exponential growth and and like adoption as well we were just talking about Muse right like Muse has been on the top chart when it comes to application download like right it's probably the second like the fattest one to Instagram or like whatever um yeah so like Alex has been just showing mills from like Facebook from Meta quite a bit yeah so I I think it's definitely the application and also RSI coming up is definitely up only when it comes to the alternative token economy. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I mean certainly AI continues to accelerate but it feels like crypto's ratio is stabilized and at least now when we're looking at AI agents potentially we have a lot of new users that you know historically humans trying to click through MetaMask to change chains and figure out how to get gas. I mean it was just a disaster. So Alec I mean I I know you're kind of more bullish on the agent use case. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I think the one thing we've learned from you know consumer crypto is it's very very difficult to get traction on virtually any crypto application that's userfacing and um when you look at you know Muse what W is mentioning uh Stripe

Link is up 38x month and it's basically payment abstraction and so as users move further and further away from the actual transaction they become more and more indifferent to the complexity of the transaction. So it's like okay like if an agent has to bridge to arbitrum to transfer to hyperlquid you know only a power user would do that in in the in the status quo but in the future users won't even know what's going on. So so you know the ultimate sort of agentic you know cryptobc case is that people don't even know that there's crypto involved uh and it just is involved on the back end and that results in a lot of fees. Um I think you know if you looked at DTCC settlement clearing in like you know traditional financial

markets you're like is this the way that transactions are going to be cleared in the future? It's like almost certainly not. It's very very poorly designed and it can't scale to agentic transaction. So I think the the very boring cryptobull case is that nobody even realizes that a lot of these transactions are happening but they happen because of uh the stable coin market and just the uh UX abstraction. >> Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, agents is something that we thought was going to be the year of the agent. Two years ago, last year, it's starting to finally happen. I guess Robin Hood is, you were telling me, has 150,000 agents doing stuff. So, maybe we're going to get there next year.

>> I think the other the other interesting thing is that more and more people are going to get, I suppose, oneshotted by AI. Like, you know, all the mathematicians got oneshotted first. You know, there's kind of like, wait, what is what is the purpose of life if I can't do math and agents are better than me? I think as people become more and more aware that AI is doing larger and larger percentages of their work, the likelihood for you know hypers speculation or betting the ranch on uh you know speculative assets will increase. We saw that in COVID uh for example. And so I think generally uh the other the other interesting acquisition funnel is that um your your typical user is currently encountering uh content

which is human generated and if you if you basically allow all content on the internet to be AI generated then the acquisition funnel for different assets will like you know actually Michael Sailor is like a funny example of this like he's the most active like AI video generator, right? Like he he just posts non-stop videos of himself and at first the videos weren't very good and now the the videos are getting like better and better, right? And STRC is like trading at par now, right? So so there's kind of like a a world in which uh you know cryptonatives figure out this new sort of uh call it investor acquisition cost game. Um and it it drives another another inflow. And David, I mean, if we want to take the more positive approach,

and we'll let Dovey speak to the bear case, but the more positive approach that these two technologies are going to benefit each other, digital assets will do well. Which types of digital assets, let's say, compared to, you know, preAI era where you have the the Litecoins, the Dogecoins, like what might be the new assets that outperform? Um, I'm not sure how much of those existing coins will benefit from AI. Um, unless they're actually keeping up with utilizing the underlying assets because I think a lot of people describe the sector as like agented commerce. Um, but I I I think it's like misunderstanding what the objective is for the agent,

which is to cover the cost of compute. Like there's no point using an agent if it costs more to use it than to the actual benefits and outputs. and you're starting to see like a convexity moment with what the outputs are. Um, as the compute you're using is changing. Um, you know, Mythos was like really the first model that used Blackwells, the B the the B series. Um, everything before that was just hoppers and it just took them so long to adapt to the latest uh compute. But now and Nav your strokes like being solved um by OpenAI that was really using the GB300s and GB200s. So, you're getting to the point where like the computer is getting so good that you're about to like superpower every like human individual. Like this muse

thing is kind of cute and nice. Um, you're going to help with payments and that's nice, but actually having a true supercomputer to solve things that everyone has access to. Like we're we're we haven't gotten there yet and we're about to see it. Now, what how does that benefit digital assets? Um well uh Muse and the entire pitch that Zuck was pushing was it's going to it's going to be the final app for payments and all these other things for the consumer level. All that data it's uh it was surprising to me when I wake up to Muse reading all my emails. It's just like yeah I forgot I did that. Um but in terms of improving the existing digital assets I think there will be different

types of digital assets. I think this entire wave that we have more recently is like focusing on AI digital assets which I think is inevitable. So Pearl, VVV, Chip. >> Yeah. >> So yeah. So I think those those assets benefit. I'm not sure how much I mean this morning too like you saw you know Justin post about the uh future risk of cryptography. Um it's kind of scary stuff but uh we'll see how that benefits digital assets. Still bullish. I I think >> I mean if crypto is going to be the first one that gets attacked, everything is getting hella attacked by any uh hack attempt and everything is, you know, we're we're having like a hack week in DeFi for a while. But on the other side, we know

we've seen this before. It just sort of creates a battle testing that it probably means that crypto rails will end up being more secure than Wells Fargo. you know, Ethereum will have been attacked so much and um is it the case that once you come through the other end? What do you think, Dovey? Like do we potentially have a more secure space after we've settled in? >> Um yeah, so I think we first have to think about like like the digital asset can be broad, right? And then we have like crypton native digital asset and we have like RWA like the tokenized rapper of like equity of bonds and then those two both are like digital assets and I so I really think that the digital asset

that has human in the loop that will actually benefit from AI and like um for instance like prediction market right now there's like 30% of the volume coming from like all the agent bots um like those are the things that has a human in the loop right because you have human to create a market and then there's a arbitrators blah blah blah. But when it comes to this more like automatic crypto native asset that we are familiar with uh I'm actually more leaning on the bullish uh so I'm so I'm more leaning on the bearish side and first of all now there's a alternative token economy that's growing exponentially and then it's basically like 10x like almost like 100x like almost every year. When you say

alternative token economy, what >> is that? The AI token economy, right? Because the AI token right now is the actual economy that you can see all the AI capacks like the cap packs like flow into GPU, flow into HBM, flow into memory and then like the output production is the token, right? And like token going to become the future worth like commodity. It's like the foundational commodity. And also unlike crude oil um like like >> and are those tokens going to be like you know with the Chinese models obviously catching up to the frontier are those tokens gonna like be commoditized also?

>> Yeah. Yeah. So um so I will like definitely touch point on that because I uh if you think about like the crude oil like there will be different type like production like based on crude oil right so like there's like like dissol like there's a different >> you mean the different like types of degree of oil. >> Exactly. Okay. >> Yeah. But like pricing is pretty much standard right is that pricing is like universal but like when it comes to token like AI token like everyone can price discriminate on their own token right so like the so like the AI token produced by enthropy and like like the AI token produced by open AI the AI token produced by by dance like C dance and then so they all price like in like completely different way and also like

they can actually price to different buyers like like say for instance right now Like the best like video model right now is from like Cense and then like that is like so that is manufacturer like this like specific commodity it is it is manufacturer by Bidance like which is like a Chinese company. So when all the Chinese like token reseller export that Seance token to US like they can have like a huge markup right and then so like like the new AI token economy and I think it would be a like a like a multi- trillion probably like tens of a trillion level um like level of like economy out there and then so not thinking about the derivative only the

spot right and then so right now we have probably like four trillion like crypto asset that kind of like uh like the spot and then like most of them are like completely illquid like shitcoin right so like bitcoin is about two trillion um so like that's why I think like in the future and AI token economy right now is only in it's like three year and then so we we so we have like 20 years like runway of this like token AI token economy >> as AI accelerates you know on the one hand you get a lot more slop because it's unlimitedly easy to generate tokens to have things happening but also AI will improve our ability to read through the noise because it sort of forces the technology to exist where you're just differentiating and actually being

able to distill as well. >> So I think majority of like the human being are just extremely lazy and then so if so now when I talk with like the college graduate student like interviewing with us and then so I much prefer the college grad that has never like like the GBT moment is like outside of like his graduation. So like the >> outside what? So basically like if you have spent your like two or three years of your like college time um like prior to the GBT and your mental model is like completely wrecked and so because I so I usually ask them some very simple estimation question just like typical Mckenzie like interview right and then can you estimate like the revenue >> how many golf balls in the

>> yeah right like that kind of stuff right and so I asked them to estimate like the revenue from like citadel security and then so like their first reaction is like can I just like GBT right so like no one actual have this like abstract system thinking um so I think we will have a bunch of like human slob and so like that is my concern >> are we becoming zombies [snorts] >> are most people using AI to replace their brain at this point is that is that over we're going in a little bit different direction than crypto just give me a few minutes we'll go back to the crypto assets >> uh well I mean yeah reached out to me because she saw saw me making video slop, you know, and posting it on my feed. And she said, "This is way too

engaging. People's like, "This is sad." You know, like honestly, like seeing that people like this video cuz it's so incredibly bad. And I'm like, "Yeah, but this is the future." Um, and you know, you just have to be long machine intelligence and short human intelligence. >> These are like these like little Hollywoodesque kind of uh vignettes that you've been putting out where there's a a Chad version of a cartoon U. >> Yeah. So I I learned it from you know I previously I used to work in e-commerce and there are these formats and these templates and one of the interesting things you learn is that templates always do well uh you know if you just copy someone's work and and so there's this this crypto trader named TJR uh who's posting these Tik Tok videos with millions of views and I'm like who am I

to judge you know that whether what what people do and do not like people clearly like this format if they like it they like it. >> Yeah, exactly. And your job as a creator is just to copy what works. >> And so I was just testing it, you know, I was I was basically copying TJR videos. Um it reminds me, I was talking yesterday, you know, Thicky, my friend, a trader, he posted the the crab thesis that everything seems to evolve into crabs. If you look at evolution, everything becomes a crab. This is real.

And he's saying the same thing seems to be happening with like short form video content. It it's sort of forcing [snorts] you to just accept that this is the natural evolutionary form. >> Yeah. And also like Gen Alpha nowadays. So like I think at least at Gen Z we have some interesting slang like Gen Alpha can only like 6A, right? And so I just never get it. And then also if you look at the statistic and then Gen like even Gen Z is the first generation that has a lower IQ score than their parents. So I totally agree with Alice that with like AI then we should just say >> like just say giga short like human intelligence like so like like average >> David let me bring you in

>> like not the top tier >> Dy's saying everyone's getting dumber are getting lower surely that's bullish crypto no >> like who is >> wait wait wait okay >> is low IQ people with money not good for crypto like >> no but but like but like okay if like the house so like the FOMO like the ring wing rate on FOMO is only 3%. Right? So like the FOMO like pump fund and I and I think the retail wing rate is only 3 to 5%. And I think like given such a low fertility rate and then we have like a decreasing IQ and then so we just run out of like all the retails. We are running out of retail.

>> Oh you think we're running out of >> like the retail overtime? Yeah. So like Korean. Okay, David Korean like Korean's fertility rate used to be at like.7 and you guys are going to go in instinct in like 80 years like in 80 years this not going to be in like there's no Koreans on earth think about that and like Korean is the ultimate for everything for like equity for >> that is true not having long term like there's birth will be bad for crypto that is a good point the birth rate recovered because uh the stocks went up >> yeah exactly right [laughter] >> but now it's gone back down and we we'll see what happened.

>> Yeah. So like the fatal rate is like correlated with like with the stock price with like Cosby index. Think about that. >> I think it is like the Korea thing is an interesting one because it's like you know if you look at Hyperlid which has obviously been a coin that's done well and you look at the actual composition of what's driving Hyperlid's fees. It's like Korean stocks right? It's like SKH trading. And so you have this, you know, the the big AI crypto overlap right now in many ways is just like a bunch of Koreans going on to hyperlquid and trading SKH highinex with with perpetual swaps and that's going into you know trade XYZ and and so it's like the the interesting sort of you know like imag

and like if you look at Korea for example like Samsung is paying these people like $600,000 you know bonuses right because like they're making literally so much money I think it trades like six times earnings or something ridiculous. They're just printing money. And so, you know, the the abundance argument, I think, is that you get a bunch of people whose jobs kind of go away and they're all making a lot of money and then what do they do with their time, right? They they they consume online content. They gamble. Um they're much dumber so they're not going to be reading books. And so it's kind of like I think there is a statistic recently that more people have placed online sports bets this like past year than people who've read a book.

>> It is kind of insane how mainstream sports betting has become. And that's not necessarily bullish for digital assets even though some of that you know speculation hyper finaniz hyper financialized speculation is obviously happening in crypto. Um it has become much broader than that. But let's let's go kind of back to the the thesis of digital assets, David. So obviously I think even Debbie would agree that the stable coin economy with agents doing stuff is >> gonna keep going up. >> Do we get a way to sort of invest or have tokens that are linked to that economy or do you think it's just going to be >> it's almost the opposite. Instead of digital assets benefiting from AI, it's

AI benefiting from digital assets. Um I I think um it's kind of like a different company entirely, but I think Figure is like a good example of like a company that actually achieved better metrics by by purely using like tokenization for it infrastructure. That's why it's like you know Bloomberg's top 50 in terms of metrics just because the growth is so good. Um and we ourselves I mean we're using tokenization to reduce the cost. Like typically to do a loan uh to finance a GPU it costs a minimum of $5 million just fixed cost. So if it's like a 100 mil deal, like you're not going to even do it. Uh if it's a billion dollars, yeah, it's like less less than 1% of fixed cost. So tokenization for us, we're trying to reduce it down to like under a million, under 500k, uh

just to accelerate the growth of the capex. So >> I mean, what is it going to take for larger scale finance financing to happen on chain? I mean right now, >> yeah, >> you know, even SpaceX, OpenAI, all these guys are spending an infinite amount of money and they're just raising bonds and, you know, they're doing the traditional stuff. At what point are we able to say, look, Sam wants to raise $20 billion to do a new frontier run? >> I I I don't think you need to do bigger deals. Uh I that's not what we're seeing from our side. Like we're seeing beginning of this year there were 300 neoclouds and they're all big u because of the threshold requirement that you have for that unit economics of doing a loan. People talk about like power and

residual value as the bottlenecks of AI and we haven't seen that as a common bottleneck. You can get like massive private credit funds that want to do it. They just don't have the inertia to to overcome this initial cost to doing that first loan. Um but if you obviously abstract it away tokenization um then they're they're very willing. We're we we just announced like our own product called GLX where these private credit funds are buying these loans. Uh we just sold an $87 million loan. Um and then they they just didn't want to do the work, right? They even pay people like 1% on the like loan servicing just so you they don't have to deal with it because they're like uh you know suited up like Harvard guys. They just want to see the paper. Um they don't want to actually go there and install the chips

for them and triple verify. Um, but >> how about for like a data center? Like can we people have talked about this? I feel like I've had people talk to me about this idea of >> tokenizing a data center for a while now. >> I I think what we're seeing now again from the beginning of the year we we there were around 300 NeoClouds. What we're seeing now is that um our customer base our inbound is about 30% NeoClouds. The rest are actually just end AI customers. They're the lace MM walkins of the world, the law firms, the casinos. um we we had a casino inbound and ask us for a loan for fraud purposes. So the the diversity what we're seeing is that if if the unit economics of like ownership is getting more efficient, you'll see 10,000

neocloudes. Um which means that the in terms of like the size of a gigawatt, right? Um one gigawatt is like the energy spend of Macau or Denver. That's that's not very easy to do. You'll always have to syndicate that risk. But when it comes to like one or two megawatts that you know 50 50 to 80 mil of like capex spend um to just put a GPU in a powered like uh powered shell just down the street one building is probably a megawatt. Um that is going to become more commonplace. It's going to resemble closer to an RMBBS market like really having smaller clusters everywhere. Like a lot of people probably heard of a modular data center pitch um kind of becoming the more commonplace thing but the behavior we're seeing is that it's not going to be large hyperscaler deals.

It's going to be 10,000 different small clusters all over the world directly owned by the end users. Um that really is only feasible like I said if the UN economics make sense. Um so there there is benefits. Um I I think we're we exist in such a ancient like payments and financing structuring like there's not much technology actually being built to to facilitate the money and velocity we're about to spend. >> That's where that's where digital assets is actually useful. like it does actually improve the velocity at which this is being built. Like if the dystopian feature is that the surface of earth becomes one data center this is like the matrix right and the only thing holding us back from this is

underwriting. um if you can actually open up the capital base like the Amazon forest could be a data center very bad example but like the this there's so much more compute that can be built if just the very human processes of moving money can be more efficient right >> um and we're case in point of >> yeah so like David so my counterargument to that is well okay because our broader thesis is like do like the question is that do digital assets benefit from AI because you saying that AI benefits from digital assets. It is not benefit from digital assets but digit but benefit from global liquidity because what like crypto has been working on for the past

15 years is to build this like huge shadow banking right huge shadow banking by tedar by so by um circle and like that shadow bank funnel the whole global liquidity and then like that's one side of the coin and the other side of the coin is uh AI benefit from the financial back end so the financial backend um automation or just like the minimize like minimize a money movement friction. >> I I think digital asset is a subset of global liquidity. >> Yeah. Yeah. True. Yeah. >> I I I think the benefit is that um I mean just to simulate a single loan like the cost to actually settle a loan, it just takes 6 months for a private credit fund because money just doesn't move

fast. So if you can like um so small lender, small borrower can't get matched. But if somebody can do it really fast and then deliver to a small lender um just kind of like this it's almost like a market maker for >> I mean the more you guys are talking I'm thinking generally that what I've seen for years is that there's people around the world that have amazing ideas. you know there's founders just thinkers um some of them you know are running large corporations now obviously but a lot of them over the years have said hey you know if I could just spin out from Google I would be able to do this huge thing but I would need you know $3 billion can I do some kind of ICO or something to to get it and there's

always been this need of like you know capital and our resources that we have and then people that have the actual frontier new ideas and merging those two does unlock like a huge um potential release of like human potential and historically you know you have to tell them look like first of all there's the whole legal thing if you touch any US customers then automatically you're doing a security and you have to like deal with people coming after you for that and Gensler is crazy don't mess with that guy and then you know there's obviously the all these additional issues that we've had with the digital economy is not big enough. There's not enough stable coins on chain to even you know easily fund these things. But it

does feel to me the more I I hear you guys talk that we're getting to an era where in a couple years obviously regulation is not only itself getting friendlier but all the abstraction with all the agents doing everything else. Is it really going to be hard to imagine in like two to three years someone credible like one of the you know credible thinkers in AI or something just publishes a piece and says you know I want to build this thing u I need $5 billion we'll just open it up on chain and we'll make an asset out of this is that hard to imagine >> I mean I think the interesting geopolitical dynamic uh you know crypto to some extent has always been or at

least early day crypto is a mechanism for you know Chinese money to find its way out of China and Huawei and GLM are just like the very pressing examples where Zai is literally on the entity list it's the most popular open source model GLM 5.3 it's now been obliterated which is all the hacking stuff that we're seeing is from this thing and then it's all running on Huawei chips right which are also like I live in Puerto Rico and if you ever touch Huawei chips you like get auto debbanked it's one of the most extremely sanctioned uh sort of things and and so you know when you look at like the success of Palunteer for example in the in the recent market like they're winning in part because American corporations don't want to buy Chinese

models from Chinese providers and so they want Palunteer to say hey it's not a Chinese model anymore it's like Palunteer model or on prem I think crypto is interesting because you're like okay you have all these guys with all these chips they're Chinese running Chinese models and then all these people who don't want to send their data to China. Uh, and we've already seen like a one cycle winner of Venice where where there's like an a bid for anonymity buying inference. I think that's a very believable sort of world where like to your point it's like okay if we have a ton of Chinese chips floating around they could train a new model. People won't want to interact with these chips or they can't interact with these chips.

they'll start buying inference from these Chinese models potentially on crypto rails, right? Because it's like a win-win because the guys with the chips want crypto, the people buying the inference want anonymity. Um, and so I could imagine a world where you get some sort of like Malaysia is a great example. Right now there's this massive capex in Malaysia uh because the Oracle data centers in the US have been delayed and so you know 60% of those Malaysian data centers are US chips and then 40% are Chinese chips and so I think there could be like some sort of situation where crypto ends up being a neutral settlement layer for these sort of like bridging geopolitical chips into a single ecosystem.

Well, I want to counter argue that because I think like at least like the cryptonative asset that we are familiar with and then Bitcoin, Ethereum, whatnot and then they're actually kind of like anti-solvent or like meta solvent, right? It's like above sovereignty. Um, but right now everything has to be resolvent or like reinsuring and so everything has been like all these like critical u technology components has been like solventized. Um so I think that's why like anything that has this like meta [clears throat] solvent like global liquidity type of and then self ownership type of this like characters and then will actually being like boxed out. Uh and so the only thing that has been the ultimate beneficiary of this

one is US dollar. So, and also like it's actually very very interesting that like Bitcoin actually um like like you said the Bitcoin creation was in this like whole like uh like bonds regime is like okay it's like right after like GFC and then we are at this like close to zero interest rate uh to now and I think like right now we are getting into a completely new regime that okay 5% probably going to be like the baseline and um so thinking from that perspective and I think it's actually like relative to 5%.

>> Five uh is at 5% of the interest rate. >> Okay. >> Like it might be the baseline because like before GFC like 5% is actually like the medium. >> Um so because we are so used to the post GFC uh like >> the higher the interest rate the the more sort of people are really like getting yield but the inflation rate is always going to be above the notional. So in the end we're just getting deflated even faster. If the neutral rate is 5%. Probably inflation is going to be something above what you're getting in treasuries.

>> Oh. Oh. So like my point is like because now we're like back to this like 5% regime and then so you are seeing all the monetary flow is actually flow back to us and then so like with AI then so we are like seeing more like US dollar. So US dollar adoption, right? Because at US it is the ultim like all this AI token. >> So correct me if I'm wrong. The general kind of acceptance is that you guys are saying existing digital assets as we know them, as we've known them for the last years and you know all these L1s and all these things >> probably not being helped by AI probably the opposite >> stable coin adoption and like the amount of payment rails

>> going up and then >> potentially maybe we get like new tokens we mentioned some of them that are >> related to the fact that those rails are so efficient and so growing and maybe they have some economics attached to them that are accessible. >> I think like they would just ultimately become another form of equity anyway, right? So it's just a equity on chain. It's just a tokenized equity. It's just equity. Yeah. >> Yeah. Like the form factor does not matter because equity is the residual value of the business. So that is effectively equity. And then when it comes to >> equity is the crab. Like the crab everything is just going to evolve back [laughter] to holding equity basically.

>> Yeah. Because when it comes to Bitcoin, Ethereum, it is definitely not equity, right? So like it is kind of like like the L1 is like solvent bond or like the L1 is like solvent equity. Um >> well, Bitcoin is a little bit different. Obviously, Bitcoin is a monetary asset and you know, it's always been competing with gold. Let's just kind of go a couple quickfire topics because gold and Bitcoin competing has been this continuous ratio that we've been looking at. Gold did have a little bit of a of a great run for a while. Now it's stabilized, but AI probably is not helping gold, especially with all the asteroid mining. What What do you think?

>> Yeah, I mean, I think in next month we're going to have a launch. I think Jed Maleb actually backed uh a startup which is trying to do asteroid mining. It's failed so far and it's launching a shuttle next month to mine platinum. And that that could be a narrative point. Um I do think the other the other interesting thing is that you know fusion reactors potentially have gold as a side product of their generation. So you know Sam Alman for example backed Olo and like a lot of the AI executives are backing these fusion plays. And so if we enter a market, if we enter like a world of severe technological acceleration, it it kind of goes back to the, you know, the the famous bottom tick is in I I think it was like in the

tech bubble, the Bank of England sold all of its gold because they were like, why would we own this, you know, useless shiny metal if if the world is going on the internet? And it turns out, you know, turns out you should own the the shiny metal cuz actually the internet was going to be kind of not as big as people thought it was going to be. So I think gold is a decelerationist asset and if we enter an accelerationist world there's there's a lot more sort of a metic steam behind like novel cryptocurrencies quantum res uh quantum resistant cryptocurrencies AI cryptocurrencies and so forth.

>> Mhm. And how about democratization? I mean obviously when you're talking about equity and equity holders it's been very concentrated especially when it's private markets before things even IPO the amount of equity holders is just you know few people in Silicon Valley usually um what do you think is going to be the potential for blockchain and digital assets to potentially give more dem democratized access to the benefits of you know this new AI economy >> uh to to talk about my book um it's hard to access the yield that's associ assiated with um the greatest source of yield of our generation which is the yield from data centers is it's hard to access like you can't get yield double digits against uh a GPU loan for example um which to me is like the hungry source

of capital for this entire decade there's nothing else that's growing as much as GPU financing I mean it's this year is already bigger than student loans and everyone has student loans it's bigger than auto loans and everyone has auto loans um and by 2029 it's going to be bigger than student loans credit card loans um uh auto loans um and some uh uh CNBS loans, all of them put together um is now smaller than the amount of money we're about to spend on. >> Do you think there's going to be like much larger curation businesses around, you know, choosing where those loans go and >> Yeah. Yeah. That's why I have a governance token. Yeah. Which one it goes to? But the the bigger question is what's interest um on what actually determines what the rate should be. Um and that's it kind of is a pit control

like in that like depends how much money and demand there is, what the utilization needs to be. Um, but I think what the real business kind of like come that comes down to this talking about stable coin as like a big winner is like which stable coin? Um, like is it Circle? Is it Tether? Why would why would an agent use Circle or Tether? Like and then people talk about using a non-stable coin asset which is ridiculous because all GPUs are priced in dollars. Um, and all debt is priced in dollars. So, it has to be a US a USD asset. Um, but yeah, it's a big question like will agents use which one? Maybe a new one will come out that specifically services AI. Um, so >> cool. We only have a minute or two left.

I guess just to conclude, if we maybe for a second think about the alternative world where maybe we've overpromised what AI is really going to do in terms of productivity. I mean obviously the technology is transformational in some ways but is it really going to create the kind of GDP increases that have been promised and we're investing for if in 3 to 5 years we end up in a state of the world which is possible I think you've talked about it Alex there maybe we've overshot it and actually we're not really going to get the productivity gains that you know we imagine because you know just having a a faster way to do some slop doesn't actually create any productivity How is that potentially going to look

for crypto? Are are we going to have a resurgence in some way or is it going to be bearish? >> I think all the data centers will start mining Bitcoin after that. [laughter] >> Yeah, that's actually the most interesting point is that you know Coreweave started out as an Ethereum miner. Well, a huge number of these these sort of Bitcoin miners have pivoted into data center work. And if the data center economy blows up, it would cause just a complete meltdown in the US stock market, right? because it's like I think it's it's our all of our GDP growth is due to data center investment at this point and um if right now actually like the the bare case is that productivity is like 1.4% 4% annualized, which is quite bad. Uh, and if everyone's just basically frying

their brains and getting dumber, you know, like it could get worse, right? It actually like you might have some math advancement and then like, you know, we're all 20 IQ points lower and then it just kind of balances out. Um, in that case, I mean, I think you and I are both privacy coin aicionados. Um there's a world in which we're living in Argentina, you know, where uh the US goes radical far-left. Um and there's real asset confiscation in the US because basically the Trump administration, the acceler accelerationists would be penalized for having participated in this giant, you know, pump and that would be, I think,

very ugly for global asset prices. So part of me is just kind of like, okay, like if AI doesn't work, just sell everything. Just like the the trade is not buying crypto, that the trade is like shorting the S&P 500. >> Okay. So even if AI doesn't work, don't buy crypto. Just buy some land in Uruguay or something. You got you got the alpha here. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having us. >> Thank you, Jordy.