🚨LIVE: Turnaround Tuesday?! CPI Data Bullish! Robinhood Volume Exploding?! Hyperdash, Maple & Arcus

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The entire thing was just institutions. It's just It's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> HE SAID IT. HE FINALLY SAID IT. >> I'm so bullish. >> And he's bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

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>> Kevin O'Leary is my homie. Kevin O'Leary is my boy. Kevin O'Leary, we thank you for your contributions to the Turnaround Tuesday that we knew what was coming. We knew Turnaround Tuesday was coming. Good morning. Greetings from sunny beach in Bulgaria. Christian, good to see you. New type. Let's go, boys. People were spooked yesterday, emotional a little too bearish. New type, you were the one getting on Robbie for being too Trade with emotions, but don't be an emotional trader. I held the line. We're up. We're up. We really We really just love to see Zcash at 550 today flying.

Hyped back up to board 65 and needed that. Lighter at at 2.6, needed that. Wow. As always, guys, we are live here from Tokenization Tower, the nest, the financial capital of the world, the Empire State Building powered by our friends at Plume. Visit plume.org to learn more about their on-chain infrastructure and asset management product. Guys, we have a green Turnaround Tuesday. As expected, the summer bounce continues. Aerodrome, uh lighter, near, Zcash, really really big runs. Do you guys remember last week when I told you guys about Derive? Did you guys Did Do you guys remember when I said Derive had some stuff coming? Well, they're up 31% today. Huge green candle. About 50% from

where I said. I hope you guys got into Derive. They are doing really really good numbers on the option side. We've got a great show for you guys today. Welcome to the tower. Robbie's going to join us as well. We do have our first guest here uh as well. He is uh Hanson Bringer of HyperDEX. We've got Maple's co-founder and Arcus, the Robinhood chain DEX. I don't know if you guys are in Cash Cat, but that thing is flying as well. Uh let's see. Where's Cash Cat at? Uh Cash Cat. Cash Cat.

Yep. 170 million for Cash Cat. Can't believe I didn't buy that thing uh when I at 40 million when my when my buddy sent me the alpha on it. Uh so yeah, we guys, we have a great show for you today. Um as always, it it's going to be a exciting, informational, and fun show. Again, it's it's Turnaround Tuesday. I mean, how can you be upset? What is there to be upset about? Hyped looks ready to break out higher. Everything looks good. As always, our topics are powered by our friends at Trezor. Use code roll up 10 at trezor.io to get yourself 10% off a Trezor hardware device for this next bull run. You're going to want to have those coins secure. Let's move into markets, weather, and more. Before we do, let me tell you about Frax, our stablecoin partner, building

infrastructure for the future of digital money. Open, stable, borderless. For more information, start using the future of digital money today. Visit frax.com. Ladies and gentlemen, it is 85° in New York City. Sunny, beautiful day out here in the city. Um, yeah, don't have much for you guys here. Got a new hat. The new Denari hat, as you guys know, one of the sponsors of the show. Powered by our friends at Denari. Let's tell you about Denari after Relay. Use relay.link for all of your cross-chain needs. Let's get into the markets. I know that's what you guys want to hear about. Let me tell you about Denari.

US tokenized equities on chain. Visit denari.com to learn more about the best way to trade SpaceX on Hyperliquid and other assets on chain. One-to-one full ownership in a US brokerage account. Let's get into the markets, guys. I know that's what you want to hear about. >> Yo. >> our lovely darling child Ethereum. >> Wow, look at those knees on Andy. >> our lovely darling child Ethereum. >> Was I Was I being told that I was too bearish? >> Yeah.

>> what I recall is that we were we were getting called out for being too bullish. >> Yeah. >> We were getting called out because we said that there was outperformance, there was relative strength. You have Hyperliquid, you have NEAR. And if you look at what's happening today, these things are incredible uh, upswing. And the rising tide lifts all boats. We also said that the outperformance was going to continue. We said that we were on this transitionary phase into the pre-bull, and we were transitioning out of the bear. And it was like, "Hey, when do you want to build a position?

When do you want to build a position? You I think you want to be in for the pre-bull phase. So, it makes sense to start building positions now, and we started to do that even over the last couple of weeks because these were the outperformance that, you know, we saw it happened. There was times, and we believe that the winners over the last few weeks, the lighters, the hyper liquids, the nears, the Z cashes >> Z cash is flying. >> Absolutely >> 554 Chris Chris Berniske is just slamming it. Now, you were spooked yesterday.

>> I was spooked yesterday. Guys, you got to watch the show. Watch the show, guys. Come on. Pick out the nuances here. We're not And I'm also, you know, we're Is this the bottom? I'm not going to be ready to just call bottom. I mean, things look pretty good today, good reactions to the CPI numbers, but I mean, you guys have been watching the show. I mean, New Type, you've been watching the show for a long time. Have we not been long on hype? Have we not been long on Z cash, long on arrow, long on near? Like Guys, we've been in position for weeks.

And now the market is coming around to us and our positions. >> Yeah. All right. Well, welcome to the show buddy. Good to have you. Equities kind of mixed. Oil still back up a little higher. And I mean, we'll see what happens to crude. Nasdaq up a percent and a half. All of a sudden goes from it's all over to we're going back up to a new all-time highs. >> I think the war is becoming less meaningful. >> Yes. >> I think >> I totally agree. >> inflation is becoming more meaningful.

That's obviously what the market is reacting to today. We had some healthy CPI numbers. Warsh is still taking this hawkish stance, but I think even, you know, his hawkishness kind of it loses its bite when you do get positive inflation numbers. So, >> Yeah, >> he did that the inflation numbers are not the end state for him. He's like, this is not the end game for us. Um QM QM, that's what I'm telling Andy to get a portfolio tracker and have it displayed on stream. That [snorts] would be good. That would be good. That's a good idea.

>> That would be very cool. I think there I mean, today is a day where you want to check in on the N7 index, >> Yeah. >> which is the Neo Finance uh rendition of the mag seven. I think you're probably looking at, you know, near, hype arrow uh you're looking at lighter, and there's a couple other ones to arrive you can put into that bucket. Arrive's got real revenue. Uh there's others you can put into that bucket. Chainlink obviously, real revenue, actually starting to accrue value to token holders.

>> Yep. I mean, look at this. Uh Ethereum outperformance today. >> Yeah. >> Uh near back above $2. Chainlink back above eight. I mean, you just love to see these things really. >> Yeah. Near above two, Chainlink above eight. Uh I mean, again, I'm not ready to call the bottom, but we've been accumula- like, we've been establishing positions at these levels. >> War sounded amazing in front of Congress today. Let's go. Yeah, I agree. He just sounded strong. He didn't He's just not giving any forward guidance. He's just basically saying like, I'm not going to tell you guys what I'm going to do, but I think if you look at the prediction markets for the rate hike or for rate hikes coming soon, they pretty much got

entirely uh taken all the way down to I think less than 20% chances or something like that. So, yeah. I think we're looking good there. >> I think so. We're looking good. >> As always, our markets are powered by our friends at Zama. Visit zama.org to learn more about the confidential transfers and their new confidential vault on Morfo. Deposit USDC privately, earn a on chain, one of the first of its kind. Bitcoin, ETH, Solana, Chainlink, Near all look great. Let's get into the news. Before we do, let me tell you about Near and near.com, your home for building, discovering, and using apps on chain.

One account, no borders, your financial life on chain. Visit near.com to learn more. And here we are. It is a lovely, lovely day. Jeff went on a podcast for the first time in a while. Uh talking to the African exchange Valor about their new partnership of Valor using Hyperliquid underneath. And he talks he's talking about kind of this underpinning of Hyperliquid as the liquidity layer for Valor, similar to AWS. Let's watch the clip um cuz I think this is a new way to think about the perps market. Um and I think it's

separate from the way that people are thinking about it now. Cuz it's not just go >> The same thing that AWS did for computers and servers and I guess now GPUs and things like that, Hyperliquid can do for liquidity ledgers, deployments, tokenizations of RWAs. >> In your own words, what is Hyperliquid and what have you guys built as Labs and then the broader community? >> So our tagline is infrastructure to house all of finance. I really do feel like today I want to hone in on the infrastructure bit just because it's so topical for you or for Valor is kind of a historic integration. Hyperliquid really is I think people view it as an exchange and I think that is an aspect to it. Certainly like there people probably use it through an interface and that interface to them feels like as many exchange-like properties that

they're kind of probably came from some other exchange and now they maybe just use Hyperliquid a specific interface Hyperliquid because they feel like it's a better product. But really when you ask what Hyperliquid itself is, it is more than whatever specific interface or application a user is viewing. It really is liquidity infrastructure. So in the same way that I like to use this analogy of AWS. It's not perfect, but it has many features that it kind of immediately paints a vivid picture in people's minds. Many startups before AWS were reinventing the wheel. They were acquiring their own server racks, managing their own power bills, like swapping out computers as they broke, and just really like building the same thing over and over again, and struggling with it. And I think when AWS came around and said, "We'll handle that." Like that's hard and not customer-facing, and frankly, just like

not that interesting to most people who want to build some like a product. Just like let us do that, but we'll just focus on this one thing, do it the best for everyone in the world, so that we have a 99 point I don't know how many nines of uptime they have. The world's a better place for it. I think they've created a ton of value. They kind of like allowed this startup boom, where a team of couple like a one product person and one engineer can go to a hackathon and build something end-to-end and like serve it to users. I think like that was a huge unlock, and I really feel like that's the vision of Hyperliquid. The same thing that AWS did for computers and servers, and I guess now GPUs and things like that, Hyperliquid can do for liquidity ledgers, deployments, tokenizations of RWAs, etc. It's the

kind of financial analog to that. So, it's a liquidity layer on which anyone can build. There's an additional benefit here, which AWS does not have, which is why I think it's not a perfect analogy, which is that liquidity begets liquidity. There is a kind of compounding effect, where although there are disparate integrations, when Valor plugs into Hyperliquid, and let's say someone at like Phantom, for example, [clears throat] they were analogously to Valor, they were the kind of first in a category of consumer wallet plugging in, and this was last year. These plug into the same liquidity, and I think when flow kind of hits the same markets, all the customers benefit from tighter spreads and thicker liquidity. Like you said, Hyperliquid has the most liquid Bitcoin perp books, just full stop. As you know, last last I checked. So, I think it's very beautiful, and I think

as that scales, I think it will really benefit everyone. >> Yeah, I mean, I think it's the way to think about uh hype and and you know, the other kind of perps markets is that these things are not due to builder codes, these things are not just going to be um uh you know, go to the platform and trade. You can go on to the There's a variety of different mobile apps. Uh obviously, there's all these front ends from MetaMask to Phantom to Valor to uh you know, eventually some of the largest platforms in the world potentially plugging into this kind of underpinning of this 24/7 permissionless global liquidity layer. And so, I think that the way to think about the value prop of Hyperliquid is not in the sense that it's just a perp stack that you can

trade on. It is the It is a It is a set of liquidity that is available for anyone with a consumer front end. And when you think about how that scales, you think about what are the apps that can use their consumer uh network and uh customer list and plug into this. And it's just massive. I mean, there's so many different trading applications from Interactive Brokers to TradingView to Revolut to uh all the large ones in the world that trade or that offer perps.

You know, you would argue you could argue that Kalshi would've been better off instead of launching their own perps, they should've just plugged into to to Hyperliquid. But of course, you know, they they they have to do it in a KYC'd regulated fashion, so they couldn't have done that. And so, that continues to be the hurdle for this liquidity layer. It's like, what good is this massive amount of liquidity in this you know, delicate elegantly designed trading platform if people in the US can't use it. And that is going to continue to be the headwind for uh Hyperliquid and for perps in general.

>> I I think that's one of the headwinds. Um I think, you know, you've also got um the moat that was Hyperliquid's um is seemingly started to deteriorate. The builder codes are doing incredibly well, but I think, you know, the the there was a perception around the expectation of liquidity growth in hyperliquid because of the network effects and liquidity begets liquidity. You would think that liquidity would compound and, you know, it would continue to increase in market share. Uh the the lighter partnership with Robinhood has signaled that that moat isn't as deep and strong as once thought. And I think we have to look at the light the rise of lighter the rise

of some of these these perps platforms as, you know, it it it on the face of it, yes, cuz you want to serve your best your your customers the best experience. You want to offer them the best price. You just integrate hyperliquid, but people just aren't happy with just giving hyperliquid monopoly power pricing power over the entire liquid trading world. Like, this is a massive massive industry. People weren't ready to just hand that over to hyperliquid. So, it's still early. There are going to be new competitors from the incumbent institutional TradFi world as well as from the crypto native world. And they're going to fight for this, and I think we may have seen, you know, what happens when there are new entrants,

major partnerships that start to eat into that liquidity, and the compounding effect of liquidity begetting liquidity starts to just not that it's not even it's still increasing, but it's decelerating. And I think that's something to watch. >> Bullish on the rise shine says, yes, hope you got in Bullish Cheeto now that JTX has launched. We're building one world market for all markets. Let's go. We're ready to build an institutional floor. Let's go. Guys, we are closer to ever to the end of this of this of this bear market. And I've got a handsome Beringer here in the tokenization tower. He is the co-founder of HyperDash.

Um they just acquired a ton of interesting infrastructure in the hyperliquid ecosystem. Uh it is a 24/7 brokerage platform trading crypto stocks, oil, and FX. Uh he also leads Hyper Holdings Global, a consortium bridging together traditional finance and uh the Hyperliquid ecosystem. Uh they also he also anchored Grayscale's live HYPG staking ETF. Um they have over $1 billion in HYPG staked as well. I'm going to get him set up in the tower, pass you over to Rob. There's a bunch of Robinhood chains that that we need to go over first. And guys, I'll be right back with that. And Rob's going to take you through the Robinhood chain.

Uh I can also >> Yeah, so we're going to head over and see what our boy Lorenzo has to say. So, Lorenzo is a research analyst uh in digital assets for ARK Invest, that is Cathie Wood's investment firm. Uh billions of dollars of assets and liquid funds uh and venture. And Lorenzo has been absolutely crushing it. Uh he's a great follow. And he does these long-form posts really going into depth. He has access to to really cool data visualizations and insights. And so here he's talking about the Robinhood chain as the cleanest case study of what has happened to ETH's economics. And he walks through the revenue model here.

And he says um "Since inception" This is from a few days ago, but since inception Robinhood chain had generated about $816,000 in revenue. Uh Arbitrum obviously is um effectively the middleware or infrastructure provider, the gateway between Robinhood and Ethereum. Robinhood is sharing I and it feels like it's Robinhood's to share cuz they're kind of generating. Uh Arbitrum takes 10% of that, so about 80K of the 816. And then Arbitrum pays Ethereum about 1,800 bucks. Uh less than $2,000. And the margin profile roughly equates to Robinhood 89% Arbitrum 10% Ethereum

15 basis points. If your thesis is ETH is money, Robinhood building is ultra bullish, more activity, more ETH collateral, more lending-ness, and we have heard and seen how deeply integrated ETH is into the Robinhood platform. It is the collateral asset and the denomination and the base asset for several pairs on the Robinhood platform. However, if your thesis is that ETH is a revenue-generating asset, and then you see that they're only generating $1,800 from this massive integration with Robinhood generating, you know, upwards of a million dollars, that's the ultra bear case, right? Cuz they're taking such a low margin on this high revenue-generation event.

And so, the uncomfortable truth is that Robinhood was never going to build on Solana, Sui, or any monolithic L1. They need the customization. Then they they, you know, want ownership over their stack, and Ethereum is really the only place to get that. They won this deal. Robinhood integrated them on merit. It's just the pricing is not right. Lorenzo sort of puts his two cents out there and says that the healthy split is more like 75% to Robinhood, Arbitrum 10%, Ethereum 15%. And if you compare that with the top line, what's actually happening, Arbitrum still gets their 10%, right?

So, that feels fair. It's just that Robinhood is sharing quite a bit more, about 14.85% more with Ethereum because Ethereum is the most valuable settlement layer in crypto. So, things need to change, and he tags ETH Labs, which is a strategic choice because this is the entity that's responsible for research and development and really prioritizing the monetization strategy of Ethereum. The issue that I have with this, and and I I Lorenzo does a great job laying this out and I think the the pricing model makes sense theoretically, but once you start to put this into practice, it's not even like they would lose Robinhood

as a customer because they're not going to go to sweet, they're not going to go to Solana, they're not going to go to another L1. And so if they were to raise prices for, you know, settlement, they would retain Robinhood as a customer. That's not the issue. The issue is that they've just made such a a stride and such a significant point about lowering prices, lowering cost of transactions, lowering data availability, and overall lowering the cost of settlement in order to facilitate more transactions per second that it just feels philosophically misaligned for them to go arbitrarily raise prices. So, while I think Lorenzo is correct, I think the pricing model that he lays out is more

uh fair, I don't see a path for Ethereum to move in a direction of higher prices. Even though I think it would be a more fair pricing model and I think it would be beneficial for Ethereum. I think Robinhood would still get what they need, they wouldn't end up paying that much more net net, and Arbitrum still, you know, makes their nut as a middleware provider, I don't see how Ethereum could go about doing this. Although I do think it would be the right thing to do, it would you'd really need to get creative as far as how you would articulate the change in pricing models to their customers in order for this ultimately take effect. That's what I see as the

issue here. I ultimately love this analysis and I love the destination, but how do we get there? What is the path to increase prices? I think that is what needs careful consideration. Guys, Andy is going to be chatting very, very soon with the Hyperliquid team. We've got one more tweet to go through before we kick it into the tower. Uh we're going to hear from uh let's see, what do we have here going on in the AMM world? So much bad data. Let's go ahead and kick it over from Alex Cutler of Aerodrome. So much bad data and hyperbole in CT over the past week. So I vibe coded a Dune dash reality check.

Alex and Uniswap have gone back and forth back and forth about what data is correct. It's incredible to me about how much dispute there could be over the metrics. You know, we're on a blockchain. Uh effectively all of this data is public. Why is there so much dispute and controversy over, you know, what LP fees, how much revenue, these sorts of things, how much volume and activity. Um and this is in particular with respect to, you know, Uniswap and Robinhood and how much activity they're generating there. And on base, you know, what the split is between Aerodrome and Robin uh and Uniswap. Uh Alex vibe coded a dashboard reality check. EVM DEX volume dominance by chain and exchange is virtually unchanged uh

week over week when filtering spam. So Alex is claiming that a lot of volume on Uniswap is spam. Uh he says beware of anyone trying to convince you otherwise because, you know, Uniswap is displaying what they say is real volume and generating real LP fees. I don't really understand what to attribute the spam volume to. There have been a bunch of fake tokens that are out there on Robinhood chain as well as on base. Uh I think these are just AI generated tokens and people are saying this is real volume. So it feels very strange to call that real volume if it's just wash trading. I don't know if it's wash trading. I think it's real transactions.

There's a lot of nuance here. Uh but this is real data. Uh Alex vibe coded it, pulled it from the exchange. We're going to continue to monitor to this. This debate is going to continue to heat up as Aerodrome comes into mainnet. Then, I think we're really going to see apples to apples. You know, Aerodrome is sort of winning on base. Uh Uniswap is sort of winning on Robinhood because Aerodrome isn't on Robinhood. And so, you know, how much are they winning? Well, that's sort of where the debate and the controversy is because it's not really clear what data is real. Once this data ends up on mainnet, it's apples to apples. You'll have two protocols. They'll be battling for the same order flow. And ultimately, we're going to see uh who wins. Where

will the aggregators point their flow? And what is the activity going to look like on mainnet with real assets in production? Guys, we're going to kick it over to the tower. Let's do a quick quick break. Quick standby. Let's play the animation. And he's going to be coming at you guys with uh a hyperliquid ecosystem project. Guys, tune in. Don't go anywhere. Be right back. >> [music] [music] [music] >> If you're serious about crypto, this is

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>> All righty, guys. Welcome back to the Tokenization Tower. We're here with Hanson Biringer, the Chief Revenue Officer and co-founder of HyperDASH, uh as well as a core contributor to the Hyper Holdings company and SPV, and a Hyperliquid megabull early ecosystem adopter. Hanson, great to have you in the tower, man. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> And um how you doing today, man? How's your How's the How's the month been? >> Uh it's been a great month. We've had a ton of uh really exciting announcements. Uh you know, me kind of coming out joining HyperDEX full-time officially. Uh yesterday we just announced our acquisition of Imperator. So, we're kind of now launching our whole data and node infrastructure validator business. Uh we're really looking forward to the Hyperliquid Summit uh which we're

sponsoring later this week. And uh just yeah, really exciting time to be building within the you know, Hyperliquid ecosystem. >> Yeah, man. Most definitely. I would you know, I feel like the the thesis around Hyperliquid has evolved so much over the last couple of years. Um just with the evolution of the product as well as the state of uh to- uh tokenization and trading. Um maybe just you know, give us what is your kind of current Hyperliquid thesis? When you're going out to raise money for this uh SPV for the Grayscale ETF, you're speaking to high net worth institutional allocators. What is the What is the thesis that has really resonated with them and that you've kind of compiled into the state of things as as they are now?

>> Yeah, it's one of my favorite topics. Uh I think we could talk about, you know, what why Hyperliquid is important for not just the crypto capital markets, but the larger kind of traditional finance uh you know, market that's evolving kind of together. But um I think at its core, you know, the real reason why investors and you know, researchers, traders, and just kind of market participants get really excited about what Hyperliquid is building and want to be a part of it is a couple core reasons. I think one uh you know, it's open source, permissionless, decentralized. It really has the same rules uh for every participant uh on the platform. And it it also you know, takes that crypto ethos and pairs it with with really high-performance, you know, financial systems and applications uh where you can actually have

institutional capital participating in this, you know, decentralized world which we haven't really seen before. You know, in my 10 years of crypto, it's really been the only thing that's kind of kept uh those two worlds really uh growing together instead of separately. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that that convergence is kind of it's the core thematic of where we're at in the industry. And I think, you know, we we talk about it as perps, tokenization, stablecoins, and like these three kind of mega trends. And, you know, we we've been talking a lot about how do we best express the bullishness of these trends? Like, what is the best way for our community, for us to kind of be able to put our capital on the line and express a bullish view on these three mega trends? And we keep coming back here to

Hyperliquid. In the lens of these three, how do you think about Hyperliquid as a way to express express the bullish trend for perps, tokenization, and stablecoins? How do you kind of think about the combination of these three, you know, decade-long mega trends? You These are all set to grow exponentially. Um is Hyperliquid a good expression for these three? >> I think absolutely. I think it's the purest expression of that. Um you know, with perps, you obviously have the obvious answer. Hypercore is the leading kind of, you know, perp decks. It's a rival in centralized exchange, um you know, from a market share of OI and volume perspective. On a liquidity perspective, it's already, you know, one of the top, if not second best or third best markets for some of these pairs.

And, you know, a category leader in listing new types of assets, right? We saw the introduction of Hip 3, you know, introduce, you know, um RWA perps, right? So, you're kind of combining two of these, you know, larger trends into one really great product. And Hyperliquid today, you know, is a de facto category leader as far as crypto exchanges go for trading those sort of, you know, commodities and and equity perps. Um And what they did is really, you know, not outsource, but kind of open that builder aspect, right? Which is a core to the Hyperliquid ethos is let other high, you know, high-quality competent builders come in and and start adding to this value add of the ecosystem. Uh you know, Trader XOZ has done a fantastic job of, you know, deploying these perps

and continuing to list new assets that traders want to trade around the world. As far as stablecoins go, um you know, we obviously saw the the latest news with the USDC now becoming a kind of aligned quote asset V2. Kind of a mouthful, but uh you know, with that I don't think the market really appreciates how big of a move that was for you know, since its inception, uh these stablecoins have never done a deal like this. They voluntarily are giving up 90% of their revenue just to be a part of the hyperliquid story, and I think that's really important for people to really digest and understand, not just from a narrative perspective, but also from a revenue perspective. Um you know, there's now almost 10 billion or so, you know, give or give or take a couple billion uh given, you know, the

the volumes and things happening on the exchange, but there's now about 10 billion or so stablecoin supply on hyperliquid hyperEVM hypercore combined, and 90% of that, you know, make call it earning 4% NIM uh on the back end in their T-bills, 90% of that goes to the assistance fund, which is buying back HYPE, you know, programmatically on chain. This is adding hundreds of millions of dollars of buying pressure to the protocol uh in addition to obviously the trading fees. So, to kind of I guess wrap that all up to your question, right? HYPE as a token and HYPE as an ecosystem is truly the purest form of these three megatrends in crypto, you know, perpetuals, RWAs, and stablecoins, all expressed and uh you know, have a compounding effect as well over time together.

>> Yeah, and just to kind of like uh uh fo- focusing on one of the points here with with regards to kind of builder codes and and how this kind of distributed nature of using the underpinning liquidity that hyperliquid has built for, you know, tons of different consumer applications, Phantom, MetaMask, Valor Exchange just announced their uh kind of partnership. And so, Jeff was on their their podcast talking about that this was like 5 days ago, talking about how he thinks about hyperliquid now more as uh analogous to the AWS in the sense that they power GPUs, um you know, the cloud, and all this in in kind of this underpinning of uh these all these servers that they run. Hyperliquid is essentially that for uh RWAs, for perps,

and just for like trading as a whole. And, you know, the one difference that he made clear was that liquidity begets liquidity. And so, as this kind of keeps growing, you get a better scenario for all the users, right? As more and more of these venues start to launch builder codes, start to open up their front end for trading, more market makers come in, more OI builds, you get a better tighter spreads for all the traders and users. And what we've seen is that this is going to continue to grow through more and more of of these front ends. But, what we're not yet seeing and what we're not able to see, and for example, Kalshi launched their own perp offering. What would have been fantastic is if Kalshi was just able to plug into builder codes directly instead of having to, you know,

cuz I mean, their OI right now is very low across all their pairs. It's It's It's not really comparable, but they need to do everything KYC'd. They need to do everything by by the CFTC rule book. And so, Hyperliquid's kind of facing a bit of a headwind here when it when it comes to these more regulated consumer front ends, Revolut, Robinhood, eToro, Kalshi, Polymarket, etc., who are kind of operating in a more regulated format. And so, what we saw Lighter do with Robinhood was actually launch a completely different instance of of their platform on Robinhood chain. It's obviously very low in liquidity as well now.

It's quite new. But, when it comes to this kind of regulatory headwind for builder codes, for HIP-3 to to really get out there and be able to be traded with all these consumer front ends in the US, how do you think about what that path might be? Is it just let's get this single instance of Hyperliquid through the rule book, through the CFTC? I think they the the group down in DC just made a big push. How do you think about this evolving as a regulatory headwind? >> Yeah, that's a that's a good question. It was a mouthful. It's a good question. I think it's a a topic on a lot of people's a lot of investors' minds, a lot of traders' minds too.

You know, I think the the easiest way that I think about it is one, the world's very big, right? There are a lot of different regulators in a lot of different countries with their own rules, and how do you approach financial markets within within their jurisdiction? You know, Hyperliquid as a you know, L1 protocol is an open-source permissionless system for anyone to participate in. And so, I think they're you know, I obviously can't speak on behalf of their team, but I think they're approaching this in a as good manner as they can, given what type of you know, software they're they're operating. And you know, I think you yeah, you you mentioned, right? The Hyperliquid Policy Center, and I believe Phantom, you know, code code-sponsored a a comment recently to the CFTC kind of trying to push for decentralized venues to also qualify for

this kind of new regulatory clarity here in the US. You know, obviously if that happens, it would be a massive tailwind for Hyperliquid to now be an option for a regulated broker front end to execute their orders through the Hyperliquid you know, back end. Which is really ties into this thesis that Jeff and the team have set out from the beginning of being this liquidity layer in this AWS layer. And as you mentioned, right? That every time someone new plugs in, whether it's MetaMask Phantom HyperDASH Valor 10 other people, you know, everyone else in the world, every other user benefits from that added liquidity and added you know, kind of taker or maker, you know, volume being driven through the through the platform. And so, I guess the way that I see the specific maybe headwinds that are facing

Hyperliquid right now is like any other DeFi protocol, it's going to be hard to have the kind of legacy incumbents just accept you as is, but what we're really seeing is Hyperliquid making a proactive effort, right? Not reactive, which I think is very important of helping drive policy here in the US. The US is a very large market as far as capital capital goes. And you know, with the Hyperliquid Policy Center, I think Jeff a couple you know, months ago was in DC speaking to these regulators. I see it as only positive steps in the right direction and hopefully that you know the US uh groups can you know have the right conversations where they need to with the right people and really steer this um you know policy in the right way right way.

>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that's what we can ask for and I think I mean clearly we've seen the incumbents starting to fight back. I think the CFTC or the the CME went to sue the CFTC over some of these rulings. So clearly there's you know there's um >> There's a lot There's a lot of money at stake, right? There's uh trading globally is a hundreds of billions of revenue a year for the taking um you know annually, right? That's it's a lot of market share, wallet share up for grabs. A lot of these companies have been building for decades in the space. They're going to want to protect their you know their piece of that pie and we saw a lot of um innovation and disruption happening in the traditional brokerage space in the last couple decades. Most notably with Robinhood, right? Zero commission. That kind of

disrupted a whole lot of other companies uh entire business models. Um you can look back, you know, I believe it was uh uh E*TRADE and a couple other ones had to basically announce that same day that they were now also offering zero trade commissions and their stock dropped 20% the next day cuz it hit them, you know, hundreds of millions of revenue each quarter that they no longer could get. Um so we're kind of seeing a very similar I would say shift happen in in financial markets globally with HyperLuke now offering really cheap competitive with also really great liquidity uh for some of these brokers just to plug into versus maybe going the more traditional route that they you know had to before.

>> Yeah, most definitely. Most definitely. I mean I mean I think that's one way to look at at the kind of big like the bigger picture, but I think the the the kind of battle right now is still against Binance, OKX, Bybit and really just like capturing that crypto market share. And what's kind of funny is that a lot of these centralized exchanges have actually been late to the party of listing like RWAs and gold and stocks and things and they've just started really to list these things uh in the in the previous months. As of late, I think yesterday it was announced that the total OI for HRP three markets hit about 3.6 billion, new all-time high. Also, there's a a significant share of the revenue that's coming from these markets. We're

obviously in a crypto bear market. Just kind of getting into kind of the revenue story here. When you think about the the priority fees that have just recently launched, as well as the Coinbase and USDC and Circle revenue hitting, I think it's August 26th is when it starts or late August and I think it's going to be paid out October 3rd or something. Paid out October 3rd. Right before the hyper liquid event and token in Singapore. Yes, exactly. And then and then every month it'll be paid out basically. And so you've got this kind of additional revenue hitting in addition to a somewhat depressed crypto revenue year, but an elevated stock and RWA revenue year. I think if you follow the four-year cycle, you attribute that

we're probably in kind of the lowest of the lows here, maybe one more downfall for crypto, but we're you know, kind of getting to the end here. The like the question is just kind of understanding what the forward-looking revenue story here is for hyper liquid. A from where where it comes from and how you anticipate the percentages of these revenue sources to kind of come together and and just be what that growth story may look like in the next year, two years. Yeah. >> Yeah, I mean, I think the obvious the most obvious forward-looking, you know, projection of revenues for me is going to be vastly dwarfed by HIP three RWA perps. I think that market is just it's just enormous.

I don't think that people in crypto can truly grasp. If you haven't worked in that that field, I worked in TradFi before I came into crypto. If you haven't actually experienced like just that world, you don't really know what you don't know and that's not like a a dig on anyone. It's just like it is such a big market. It's our brains can't even comprehend it. To give into perspective, you know, some of the, you know, options notional volume, right? It's in the quadrillions. Uh, it's just it's an enormous number. Um, some of these, you know, ETFs trade trillions a day notional. Obviously, there's a lot of leverage involved in options, but there are also there is also a lot of leverage involved in perps. And so, if you start to think about capturing just a tiny fraction of global trading volume, uh, expressed via perps, which

are an amazing financial instrument and Hyperliquid is, you know, I think an amazing, uh, representation of and venue to trade those. Um, you know, this revenue should 100x over the next, you know, decade. And when you start to then factor in, uh, if the liquidity is 100x-ing in volume and, uh, trading volume or trading OI is 100x-ing, that also probably means that collateral and margin on the exchange is 100x-ing or more. Uh, and then, you know, now we have this, you know, AQ A V2 with USCC. And so, if I think right now, you know, 5 to 10 billion of of margin right now, imagine if that went to 50 billion or 100 billion. And that's now billions a year of added buying pressure to the protocol in addition to all the trading fees. And so, I think when you start to really zoom out a bit, but then looking forward, uh,

the numbers get quite large of what the market that Hyperliquid is going after. And that's also a lot of the reason why, you know, our company chooses to build on top of Hyperliquid. We've been one of the first builders since the 2024, uh, using builder codes, empowering our users to get access to this great liquidity, uh, giving them additional tools, advanced algos, private TWAPs, things like that, uh, which are not available on the front end. >> Yep. >> Uh, and then pairing that with more like data to help, uh, improve their trading and just like give them more content to do research and make better decisions. And so, we're all in on Hyperliquid, uh, for a lot of reasons, but most importantly, uh, we're very much, you know, kind of starting to really think think deeper about what are we actually, you know, kind of building towards as a

participant in the ecosystem, but also as someone who's just plugging into the technology to then go build a lot a much larger company kind of you know accessing the global world of finance not just crypto. >> Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about that then. So let's start with the Hyper Holdings contributions to the Grayscale ETF launch. This was also a big kind of kicker in in the last three months. We had the Circle announcement followed by the ETF launches. >> Right. >> Um and so Hyper Holdings and maybe just tell us the story. Like how did this [clears throat] happen? What happened?

So you guys you launched an SPV to help fund the Grayscale ETF to get it off the ground. >> Correct. >> Um HYPG how like just give us the story here. What what happened behind the scenes? How did that how does this work? Um and then yeah yeah yeah. >> Yeah. So yeah Hyper Holdings Global we're I guess a special purpose kind of fund created to you know for one purpose and this is all kind of in the SEC filing. So it's all public out there and we basically you know contributed in kind to the Grayscale ETF. Um which today is you know the lowest kind of fee staking product for Hyperliquid. That kind of came about for a couple of reasons. I think you know we saw the the massive uh impact that the Bitcoin ETFs had you

know two years ago when they launched. And just this real kind of need for investor education is particularly on the institutional world of why Hyperliquid is so important kind of going back to what we were talking about earlier today. And um you know my kind of personal relationship with Grayscale is kind of what led me to you know structuring that deal with them. You know there's a lot of reasons we we chose to work with them right? There's a couple different issues out there. But at bottom line you know they're the largest crypto asset manager in the world. They're also one of the oldest. You know they have close to 20 billion of AUM across the different products. They're actively working with the the regulators here in the US the Hyperliquid policy center as well to push forward the the proper adoption and rules that are going to benefit

Hyperliquid long term. That was a really big part for me and kind of the investors in the group of why we wanted to work with them as well as um just their track record of uh really pushing forward uh crypto adoption in the institutional world. Uh you know, they they kind of won the battle with the SEC to get, you know, crypto ETPs approved a couple years ago, and they've they've just been a pioneer in the asset management space. And I think the to give a little bit more context of why, you know, these seed creations are so important for these asset managers is uh when you have, let's say an institutional investor wants to go buy HYPE right?

>> Yeah. >> They don't have a Coinbase account. They can't access Hyperliquid in the US. You know, maybe they're onboarded to an OTC firm like Flowdesk where I used to work, but there is a lot of friction of getting that approved to your all the different risk controls and things. But now if they already have a brokerage account, they can just one-click right trade the ETF and go buy it. Uh but so that's step one. Step two is the consideration of liquidity. You know, how how maybe they want to enter into a a $10 million position, but the product only has 2 million of AUM, right? They can't They can't be that much exposure of the total vehicle for this liquidity and concentration risk. And so, these ETFs, it's really important for them to have diversified holder base uh from a AUM percentage perspective so that net

new investor can feel comfortable getting into the size that they need uh and being able to trade in and out of that position over time. And so, that was kind of how, you know, that's I guess story came about to be. Um and then our kind of investor group, which is a combination of some of the largest hedge funds and VCs in crypto, as well as some of the largest, you know, on-chain holders of Hyperliquid around the world, uh we're going to be working with Grayscale as they're kind of going out to educate this traditional, you know, allocator base that they are connected to uh both in the US and globally of why they should, uh you know, own Hyperliquid and why they should, you know, express that view through the Grayscale, you know, Hyperliquid staking ETF.

>> Yeah, and I think it actually comes back to to what I was saying at at the top, which is that three megatrends. Yeah. And I was talking to Zach Pandl about it, you know, head of research over there, and he's just like, "Look, man, like I know that, you you know, it seems like hype at 60. You know, you to all you guys are up a ton. You know, you're all in. It's like the best thing ever, but guys, these investors are thinking about this as a 5 to 10-year long tokenization per stable coins. I got to have exposure to this. I can't look back at my LPs and be like somehow we missed the, you know, three biggest exports of the digital assets industry.

So, they don't even really I mean, they are price sensitive, but all but in in a certain way they're almost insensitive because it's like, look, we're early. It's cheap. And so, you know, thinking about that, there is that ETF exposure vehicle. Obviously, there's hyper liquid strategies and Hyperion that do that. Hype strategies had that crazy run as of late. Now it's down under MNAV. People are a bit angry about that, but I think, you know, that'll probably work itself out. And so, now it's pretty clear that there are institutional access vehicles for hyper liquid. What's next? Is it an education thing? Is it an Is it an awareness thing? Is it a marketing thing? Is it Jeff going on more podcasts? Like what's What is that?

In a similar way that Ethereum is has now broken out into like there's like Ethereum Alliance and this institutional Ethereum Labs. It's almost like like these like subsidiary nonprofit groups. What's next for hyper liquid in the institutional adoption? I think it's pretty clear that's what's going to take this thing to 100, 200, etc. What's that process look like? How How are you getting involved in that? >> Yeah, I think it looks a little bit different for Hyper Liquid, right? Kind of by design from the from the core team, right? That they they want to focus on what they're extremely good at, which is building this, right? Liquidity layer infrastructure for anyone to build into. You know, kind of mentioned Jeff in the Valor podcast. He He kind of went into to a little bit more detail on this and I would recommend everyone to go

listen to it. It's It's really great content, but you know, that we kind of all all serve, right? As a Hyper Liquid marketing team. It was kind of like a meme going on in the community a couple you know, last year, but it is true. You you there's obviously you and I are talking here today. We're kind of acting as that, you know, educational guide for, you know, the listeners who maybe don't know so much about Hyperliquid or they're kind of finding something else, uh, something else new that they didn't learn before. Um, and then that was also, you know, kind of the second reason for the Hyper Holdings Global is to serve as a trusted, you know, kind of person to talk to about, you know, what is going on in this ecosystem, why is it so important, and really like why is it

so important in not just crypto lens, but the broader financial services capital markets lines. Um, you know, Hyperliquid is one of the fastest growing companies in the world right now with 10 employees, 11 employees, and, you know, not many people know about it. I would say in crypto everyone does, but crypto is a very small kind of part of the global economy, and so that's the most exciting part, uh, which probably Zach was, you know, referring to, right? We are still very early. There's a lot of education needed. A lot of these asset managers and institutional vehicles are purely focused on that, uh, producing great content, great research, and then really going out and educating financial advisors of hey, you should be aware of what's going on here in case any of your clients have questions, we're here to help. And we also are here to serve as a

way to access this, you know, investment idea you want to express in a regulated, compliant, very easy to access way. >> Yeah. And I mean, Zach said that basically he finds it much easier to, uh, pitch Hyperliquid than other ETFs that they have because of the revenue story and the buyback story. And so I would imagine when it comes to the work that you're doing, that's also kind of like the primary lens like, hey, this business is doing, you know, billion dollars a year in in free cash flows, 9 you know, not 99% goes to the token. The token is the equity. There's no kind of split structures here. It's very, you know, these are the three megatrends.

Here's the business. >> Right. You can value this thing based on how you'd value a stock. Um, you know, versus when it comes to different L1s, and even Ethereum is just kind of like, you know, how do you value this thing? >> vibes based, basically. Yeah, yeah. >> then once you get out of Bitcoin and Ethereum, the vibes based calculations, they start to kind of break down because it's like you lose the store of value or the credible neutral the credible neutrality story. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, when you get to other L1s, etc. But so there's kind of like this gap in between the like what I call it like the big two and then hyperliquid and like these revenue generating businesses, which I think is broadly a trend that it's really catching on with with digital asset investors now is like I

want to own something that treats me as a first-class citizen, has cash flows, gives those to the holders. And so there's kind of a standard that's that's been set here. >> No, hyperliquid kind of broke the the traditional model in crypto. I for I think for for better. You know, there was this kind of what if premium that a lot of these tokens had been ascribed value to in the past cycles of in 2017, 2021, 2024, you know, what if we built XYZ but on the blockchain? And then this thing was making, you know, $500 of revenue a month but being valued at $2 billion. Like that's just that's not right.

And there's a lot of you know, obviously intricacies with supply and FDV and you know, all these different types of games that are being played in crypto. But hyperliquid really came in as a purest expression of a growing company. It's capturing all these mega trends and it actually provides, you know, value to, you know, token holders in the form of the buybacks and just also you know, you can stake the hype on the on the network and you know, earn staking rewards as well as you know, get discounted trading fees if you're a trader. There's a lot of different ways to utilize your hype as a productive asset while also benefiting from, you know, the value accrual of the the network expanding via the the token buybacks.

>> Yeah. >> Now on the hyperdash side, you guys have processed over $35 billion of volume. So tons of trading activity. You know, I see the UI on the production computer here every day from the time he's always looking at the UI, trading on it. And so when it comes to thinking about like what the value prop of hyperdash is for for the traders and investors in the community, you guys just acquired uh Imperator, which is a institutional grade kind of data firm, as well as uh from what I understand, kind of like validator and staking platform. So, maybe just walk us through the HyperDash business.

Um where are you guys making your revenue from? Obviously, trading fees. Why acquire Imperator? What is the value prop of actually using the platform? Kind of give us the high-level here. >> Yeah. So, at you know, at a high-level, HyperDash we're a global brokerage and trading, you know, data analytics platform. Uh what that means kind of, you know, very simply is you can trade through our, you know, kind of terminal. We have advanced tools and execution uh that other platforms don't offer. And then we kind of pair that with this like really data-rich experience to help improve your trading decisions. Um that can look like discovering top traders to help maybe formulate your own strategy or or discovering really bad traders to to to know what to avoid. Uh we also have, you know, the ability to really like track and customize what data you

want surfaced because there is so much going on in the hyper liquid, you know, platform. And the benefit is, right, it's open source. You you can you can access every trade that's happening in real time on HyperLiquid, but it's very difficult to get that data in a clean, you know, nicely formatted way. And that's kind of what we make, you know, very easy for our for our users. Um as far as the Imperator acquisition, this was kind of a natural next step for us. Uh with this data, right, uh or with this acquisition, we are now a top validator node. So, we are in the active set, actively processing data faster than anyone else. And now we're able to service this data and clean it up and enrich our users' experience even faster and better than before. Uh in addition, we're now able to offer, you know, kind

of uh more enterprise grade data packages to certain clients who maybe really want to better understand HyperLiquid, but um they're not ready to trade yet. And so, you know, there's a lot of conversations we're having we're having now on that side of the business to really complement the trading, you know terminal. >> Mhm. >> Um for a user who or maybe a TradFi asset manager, "Hey, I really want to understand and kind of help underwrite my investment thesis to hyperliquid. What's going on? I don't really know how to do this." Our team will help them and kind of understand and really build a custom data package to help suit their needs. And then, you know, hopefully if they do want to trade, right, we then have that as well for them, too. But, we're just really able to access just a larger market with the two combined

offerings. And we see that as a just kind of next step, you know, building on our larger plan that we have to really grow hyperliquid's accessibility and inner inner usability or inner operability globally. >> Yeah. Amazing. And what's your what's your What are your bull and bear cases for hyperliquid here? What are your not necessarily prices, [clears throat] but what needs to go right for hyper dash, hyper holdings, hyperliquid ecosystem to be, you know, the most bullish outcome into the next 18 months? And then, what is kind of the, you know, moderate to bear case from from your perspective as as we kind of come to a close here?

>> Yeah, I mean, I think from a bull case, it's really easy to get bullish. All the things we talked about, right? All these different kind of, you know, mega secular trends coinciding at once. And and not just coinciding, but accelerating, you know, in the world of, you know, AI and also like just the modern world, a lot more people on the planet are becoming connected through the internet. That a lot more people are starting to use capital markets to gain access to financial markets. And, you know, with now stablecoins, it's much more accessible than ever has been in the past. A lot of the world has, you know, always been gated from US capital markets because their local regional broker doesn't support it.

We're now seeing, you know, through the use local, like a local FX on-ramp, you get USDC, you can now access hyperliquid and basically get access to the global financial markets in a couple clicks, you know, on your phone or something. That's never happened before in humanity's history. And so, that that's really bullish for onboarding the next couple billion users to to accessing hyperliquid's liquidity. And that's, you know, something we're devoutly focused on doing and building with across our different product set, not only on the desktop, but mobile and just other formats for, you know, this next wave of traders to access global market liquidity.

As far as the bear case, I would say it's kind of hard to find one because I I feel so strong on these secular trends accelerating. I would say if I if I my thesis would start to be invalidated if I started to see those trends stopping and not just stopping, but like kind of reversing. But at the moment I don't, so that's kind of keeping, you know, us, you know, grinding every day, 7 days a week, 24/7, you know, we're a global business. Our clients are global. You know, we're we're all really excited about what we're building and it doesn't feel like work, honestly, which is which is also great. And that's also what made me to make the official switch, you know, from my kind of career on the institutional side from coming from Flowdesk recently. And so,

yes, it's hard to it's hard to find a reason to be bearish, but I think the >> Guys all in. >> The reason the reasons to to be bullish are are quite compelling. >> Yeah, I would imagine your portfolio is very heavy in hype these days. >> [laughter] >> Hassan, it's been a pleasure, man. Thanks for joining us in the tower. Hope the summit goes great. Hope the rest of your week in the city is great and great to have you, man. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for being here. >> All right, guys, we'll be right back with our next guest, more markets, charts, and more. I think we've got the Maple co-founder talking on-chain credits, which kind of coincides as well with these three mega trends. And we also have someone from Robinhood chain joining as well later. And then we're going to do markets, charts, and more

after today's CPI numbers came in quite low. The market seems to be partying a little bit. We'll take a quick break, get you back to Robbie, and get set up. Thanks, guys. >> Cool. >> [music] [music] [music] >> If you're serious about crypto, this is where you need to be.

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>> If you're serious about crypto, this is where you need to be. The Rollup will be broadcasting from the Rare Evo A >> All righty, guys. Welcome back to the show after the great little segment there with Hansen from HyperHoldings. We've got Joe Flanagan, a the co-founder of Maple, someone who we would consider into our return to fundamentals basket. Uh I think these guys are highly undervalued and under looked. So, we're we're going to figure out what's going on behind the hood today. Joe, great to have you. Welcome back, Joe.

Welcome to the show, Joe. And uh great to have you. I think it's your first time on. Uh so, looking forward to chatting. >> Yes, great to be here. Thanks uh thanks so much for having me on. I I You were cutting out there a little bit for me. I'm not sure if it's the same for you, Robbie. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think uh just, you know, welc- welcoming you to the show. Uh I think it's your first time on if I if I recall correctly. We've had, you know, your partner Sid uh and Maple we've chatted about uh for a long time. Uh and we do have this thesis on the show around this return to fundamentals, uh which is effectively getting down to our roots. Um not doing, you know, too much, you know, financial engineering, meme coin shenanigans, but, you know, doing real credit uh capital formation

and and and, you know, the building blocks of finance, if you will. Um but, because it's your first time on the show, would love to just, you know, hear a little bit more about yourself and and the story of how you ended up find finding Maple. >> Sure. Sure. Yeah, well, I mean, we certainly at Maple like to like to think that we're the the adults in the room and and bringing uh some seriousness and some fundamentals to uh to the DeFi ecosystem overall. Uh but to to roll it back, we have been around quite a long time now. Uh Sid and I started Maple back in Australia about 8 years ago now. Um and so Sid and I have been working together previously in traditional finance and and specifically within structured credit. Um and so what we went looking for was can we bring

some automation, can we bring some technology into the institutional credit space. And in that exploration, we then found blockchain, smart contracts, Ethereum, and so it down the rabbit hole we went from there. And the reason that we're we're called Maple is the initial idea that we came up with and what we actually built on chain was structured credit. And so we had the debt stack. And so the reason that we're called Maple is that a debt stack does look like a stack of pancakes. And the cash flows in a debt structure roll over the pancakes like maple syrup. And so that was the initial idea and in our bringing our institutional credit experience in structured finance into the on-chain ecosystem. But what we

realized when we did that was there's no real assets that exist on chain that are worth putting into that structure. And so that's where you fast forward to today and what Maple is is at its core is we are originating institutional credit on chain and creating those assets that, you know, one day in the future will be able to be securitized and structured and have all these things done to them. Um but we are now, you know, fortunate enough over those 8 years that uh and and since we launched that we've now originated over 22 billion in in loans. >> Yeah, that is sizable. I think this has been happening for a long time in finance. I mean, the debts the debt stack isn't anything revolutionary, but doing it on chain is revolutionary. And

maybe you could just describe why it's important that you took this process that was happening off chain. What were some of the inefficiency inefficiencies that you and Sid realized and saw firsthand? And and how does bringing those on chain help? >> Yes. So, when you're when you go about issuing institutional debt, there's this first this 6-month process of where you were going through serious amounts of due diligence, and then you are creating hundreds of pages of legal agreements, where there are all of these third parties involved to create a quote-unquote trusted environment. And so, you have a standby servicer, and you have a custodian, and you have a trustee, and you have a trust manager.

And so, all of these roles are created in order to create a trusted environment for one party to lend money and one party to borrow money. And so, what we're able to create with blockchain is we're able to remove all of that those middle men, all of those service providers, and and create a trustless environment, which is the core of the the blockchain thesis. And and trust doesn't mean that trust doesn't exist. Trustless means that trust doesn't need to exist. I don't need to trust you in order to interact with you, and vice versa, you don't need to trust me in order to interact with me. And that really is the core technology that Maple has built is that all of that 22 billion

that's been originated is done through smart contracts. The second important element is once you've gone through that 6-month process of issuing the debt, then you are interacting and monitoring through spreadsheets and through email. And so, there's just the back and forth of inefficiency between all of those third parties and the lack of any sort of real-time information. And so, that is also one of the core things that blockchain enables is that you're able to have real-time visibility into all of the underlying data that makes up any loan portfolio. And so, now you can go go the Maple website, you can see in real time what are the loans that have been issued, what is the collateral that's backing those loans, when would a liquidation occur, when would a margin

call happen. And so, that transparency that we've been able to bring to institutional credit is what I think will be the the standard for how all on-chain finance and eventually all finance should be originated and and the standards that those participating should demand. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that we've heard about um this idea that while the tokenization of assets is specifically appealing, there's a concept of origination needing to happen on chain. And this is slightly different than the type of origination that you're speaking about with regards to to loans and credit. But, talk to us about why the origination on chain for uh different tokenized assets is important to Maple's product stack and

just generally this kind of tokenization vision. What is it that that makes the origination on chain so crucial to the kind of broader use case and value prop of uh of these tokenized assets? >> Yes, yeah. And I know you're in the in the tokenization town. So, this is uh this is important. And uh and but it's an important distinction is that there's many uh many parties out there that are tokenizing assets today. And what they're really doing is just taking uh an off-chain legal structure and then wrapping a token around that in different formats and then putting that on chain. And then there's the promise of, "Okay, I'm going to create liquidity because I brought it on chain." Or, "I'm going to create secondary markets cuz I brought it on chain." And what's being

being lost is what is the actual reason that you're bringing an asset on chain? What is the fundamental improvement that you're going to have by having that asset on chain? And so, as you're alluding to, the one of the distinguishing features of Maple is that we are originating debt from the source. So, the capital gets aggregated and then the loan gets issued directly through a smart contract on chain. And so this idea of direct issuance ensures that the asset exists in an on-chain structure from its very outset. And so you can imagine there's a big difference between wrapping a legal structure and tokenizing a treasury bill and then all of the the frameworks and and things that are required to create a parallel

between its on-chain life and its off-chain life versus the inherent nature of issuing something from an on-chain context at its very beginning. Uh and then the difference that the life of that asset then can can live uh and the use cases that can be brought about as a result of that initial issuance on chain. >> Yeah. >> Um you know, Joe, I I might be getting ahead of myself here, but you know, given the things that you've talked about with issuance and origination and making these loans and especially, you know, how you're you're facilitating these on chain.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it it sounds like a bank. It sounds like, you know, that's a fact and I'm not I don't mean in the regulatory like compliance sense. I mean like, you know, in the in the sense that originally one of the the primary pillars of this industry was, you know, banking the unbanked. Is that effectively what you guys are trying to do? Is that the mission? Is create this technologically enabled smart contract ecosystem that is able to facilitate financial transactions, but entirely through code.

And and if so, is there I mean is does it make sense to pursue and sort of upgrade our financial infrastructure so that, you know, these are the new banks like, you know, go and pursue OCC charters especially in this regulatory regime? I guess first question is maybe philosophically how do you think about this? And then second question is, you know, when you start to play this out on a on a business corporate playbook strategy, what does that look like to ultimately bring that vision into fruition. >> Yeah, so I I wouldn't say that we are, you know, attempting to be a a bank and and and certainly my my legal advisers would tell me not to that it would be happy with that response. But the the the key of what you're getting

at is and one of the core principles of why Sid and I started out was that we wanted to ensure that access to institutional credit became much more accessible globally and that and that and that goes in both directions. One that the capital providers, the people supplying the capital in, can get access to these opportunities where they're able to access the yield that comes from these premium offerings that is normally reserved for the elite and for high net worth individuals. So there's definitely an element of that of democratizing access to the highest quality yields that are available.

And then that there is on the borrower side all of those efficiency that I spoke about earlier, bringing that into the financial ecosystem overall. And when you bring more efficiency, less fees into a financial system, you're going to lead to more productive use of capital. And that productive use of capital is what generates real yield and ultimately leads to the progress of humanity, innovation and real expansion. And so I think that that combination is what we're really really trying to facilitate is one broader access to these opportunities and then two, when you bring to capital markets and especially to debt capital markets, that is what leads to real innovation and the and humanity reaching the the progress

and potential that that we know is possible. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think it's just I mean we're just on the cusp. I mean I I I just keep saying that stable coins, perps, tokenization, these are three mega trends. You know, we are still so early. Somehow every bear market we get the chance to be so early. Maple token has been beaten down. Thing is a steal right now. I'm going to say it, you don't have to say it. Joe, talk to us about the revenue story, the growth story as it pertains to kind of the business side of Maple. We have a lot of investors on the stream every day they come in and we speak to different founders and we just keep hammering home the our thesis around kind of the types of assets that we currently own. And I mean outside of you know a couple

Zcash, Bitcoin Ethereum maybe, they'll the only assets that we talk about on this show that we own are things that generate a significant amount of revenue, have really strong tokenomics, and really just kind of have a really really strong growth story ahead for the kind of trend or sector that they're operating in. Talk to us about the growth story for Maple, the TAM of the market that you're going after, and just kind of like how the business uh interacts with the asset of the of the vertical.

>> Yeah, so so our growth story, especially when you look at things year on year, has has been real real expansion. And so we've we've been able to grow close to 100% year on year in terms of our deposit base. And then over the course of this bear market, especially the last three quarters, we've been able to really ensure that we maintain the quality of our loan book and the continued growth of our loan book. And so what that culminated in is at the end of last last quarter our loan book reached an all-time high. So we had 1.9 billion in loans outstanding, which was about a 66% growth quarter on quarter. And so that shows you that Maple is now definitely been the most active institutional

lender in the space in comparison to our institutional peers like Tether and Galaxy and Coinbase. And shows that real development of the market for the ability for DeFi to start to become into real capital markets activity. If you said to me that we were going to be competing with Tether and Coinbase and Galaxy and the likes of these names a year ago or 2 years ago and be able to outcompete them in many in many scenarios, I would have said you were you were crazy. Like we were still a long way away from that. And so when you zoom out, you actually start to see the perspective of the amount of growth and adoption and willingness for public companies and other large borrowers to

start to engage with Maple and the broader DeFi ecosystem. >> On [snorts] >> You know, go ahead, yeah. >> No, no, please. >> Oh, I was just going to touch on the on the revenue front. And so Maple's business is is very simple, right? We aggregate capital and then we lend out money. And so the higher our loan balances or the loans outstanding, the more revenue that we're able to take. And so we take a a net interest margin or a spread between the yield that we pass back to lenders and the amounts we charge to the borrowers. And so when you start to see that growth in our underlying loan book, you know that that is then the catalyst for more revenue to flow into the into the protocol. The final thing I'd add to that is last week we released a new Maple Improvement

Proposal, which is where we're going to introduce more systematic buybacks. And so it's important to note Maple is no there's no equity involved. We are a token only ecosystem. And so that's direct attribution of now SYRUP holders will know the revenues that we generate from our business activities will directly flow into a systematic buyback program. There can be real transparency and knowledge around what portion of revenues go to buying back the token each month. >> Very cool. I mean, just answered my question right there before I could even ask it.

And you mentioned that we're at, you know, billions of dollars in loans outstanding. Um what is the growth path? Like who is the net next borrower? You know, to ultimately take some of these outstanding loans. Are you, you know, kind of steadfast in penetrating more of the, you know, traditional financial institutional lending market? Or are you, you know, more so focused on expanding market share within the crypto lending space? Just talk us through, you know, the the steps to ultimately get to, you know, 5 billion, 10 billion, and and so on and so forth.

>> Yes. So, we've We've done a great job during this bear market to continue to expand our market share and our our loan book. You know, that that growth in our loan book is on is on the back of a 50% decline in Bitcoin. And so, when you when you put that into into into that relative basis, you can see the the great job that the team has done in expanding our borrower footprint and and continuing to grow our loan book. Where does this go from here? Yes, we know we're looking forward to the the market turning around and and Bitcoin prices returning, which will then bring a lot more institutional borrower demand. But what we wanted continue to do beyond just crypto back lending is start to

bring the infrastructure and our progress to date into not just crypto back lending, but to lending overall. And so, asset back lending that goes beyond just crypto assets. And so, if you think about it, crypto for a long period of time has been operating on its own little isolated island, and capital flows around it and between it, but it is not actually getting integrated into the overall financial system. And so, I think that's where Maple really sits is that we can be one of those bridges that's that's enabling what has been crypto in an isolated world starting to bring capital into the overall financial system, but not being in a way that is isolating or excluding uh, of the

principles that are important in traditional finance. I think sometimes we get too caught up on the the principles of DeFi and it's very important to maintain those, but there are many great things that traditional finance has done over a very long period of time. And so, what we're focused on is what are the lessons that we take from traditional finance in terms of risk management and other practices and then incorporate that into the best elements of DeFi and crypto technology to create the best of both worlds. And that is what's going to really lead to the development of on-chain capital markets and ultimately proper institutional participation.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And I I think it makes a ton of sense. Institutional participation is essentially where the the industry is headed. We're now finally starting to see interest and participation, you know, not just outwards going into that market, but you know, they're showing interest in coming into this market as well and embracing tokenization. Um, and so, that certainly makes a ton of sense as far as where the loan book is headed. Maybe you could also just give us a sense of, you know, what the loan book looks like today. Obviously, not doxing anyone, not, you know, asking for specifics, but I I recall seeing something about, uh, you know, Sky and Spark were was a significant depositor, uh, of serum USDC. Maybe you could just, you know, unpack, you know, what the

relationship is between, you know, Sky and Maple as well as, you know, the broader loan book. What what is the composition broadly and and, you know, what we can expect, uh, you know, on things today. >> Yeah. So, uh, as at today, the majority of the books are greater than 80% of our of our, uh, loans outstanding are Bitcoin back loans. And so, these are institutions, so this can be exchanges, market makers, trading firms, OTC desks. Think of all of the, uh, financial institutions that exist within the crypto landscape and they will be normally on-boarded and actively borrowing from Maple. And then they are posting their Bitcoin for the most part, some Ethereum, some hype as collateral

and then and then borrowing stable coins, USDC, USDT, and then more recently USDG. And so, that's that's kind of the the high-level construct of the of the portfolio today. It's highly diversified. You know, we have you know, well over 70 active borrowers. We have you know, maybe you know, close to close to 100 active loans at any point in time. And [snorts] so, that level of diversification is really important. We're not reliant on any one borrower or issuing to only one institution.

On the capital supply side, and you're referencing Sky in particular, we are you know, we have a number of large capital providers and different avenues for how we source capital. But Maple, for the most part, is really focused on how we integrating into large capital existing capital sources and existing customer bases. So, we're not you know, too focused on building out a massive retail presence, but more importantly, accessing capital where it already exists today and providing that high-quality institutional yield to those customers and those capital. Sky being a major contributor today and then we're focused on the continued development of bringing many others into that space, including some fintech

partners that we're starting with now. >> Yeah. I mean, with the context of the Bitcoin-backed loans making up a you know, dominant portion of the balance sheet, it just I mean, Michael Saylor, are you listening to this? Like, you know, you want some Bitcoin yield. Like, we want to pay those dividends. >> This part of your cycle can't come any faster. >> We would be thrilled if he wasn't selling Bitcoin and then instead instead borrowing from Maple. >> Yeah. Joe, how does the So, you know, today we had the CPI numbers come out and they were quite low in the US in terms of inflation and and so, you know, that there's a lot of conversation about whether or not the new Fed chair, Kevin Warsh, is going to lower rates, hike rates, keep rates the same. I think it's probably likely that the rates stay the

same for July and potentially looking at as Trump's kind of got his his his fingers on them to lower the rates into the coming into the rest of the year, perhaps at least into next year. What is the macro environment signal to you guys? How do you How do you adapt your risk tolerance and your kind of playbook for your product based on the macro yields whether it's two-year, five-year, 10-year or just T-bill rates, what is your kind of risk strategy and how does that change given the evolving macro landscape? It feels like we're kind of on the tail end of the cutting cycle if not at the end. Potentially or sorry of the of the hiking cycle and looking into the cutting cycle here. What does that

mean for Maple's product strategy? >> Yeah, so so we meet every month as as a an investment committee to to review things and and we certainly look at at the rate environment. And we actually create an internal benchmark which is a combination of on-chain yield so you know, Ave and Sky and a combination of of yields that exist on chain and then the the SOFR rates and and what things are looking like in the in the real economy. And so what we see is that we would agree that the the curve is maybe looking to to steepen a little bit on the on the back end maybe for the sorry is looking to to flatten on the on the back end and so we're not looking to issue too

many longer duration loans. Like that's kind of how we think about it. Are we looking to issue some longer paper or or shorter paper and that's really how Maple works in terms of of interacting directly with the rate environment and the and the macro economy. In terms of the structure of our loans because these are Bitcoin back loans, these are all over collateralized. We have great risk procedures in place so that we're not ever really changing our loan-to-value ratios or or changing the risk perspective from from that structure. Uh the the protection that's in place with uh with Bitcoin as collateral uh is is very secure and you know, the systems and everything that we have established manage that. So, it's more a function of what duration profile do we

want of the uh of the underlying loans and do we want to be issuing things on a on a longer basis or slightly shorter basis based on that interpretation. >> Yeah, makes sense. You know, that there was, you know, the uh doomers out there, you know, calling for the destruction of some of these larger companies, especially in the Bitcoin space, as a way to kind of mark the end of the the bear, you know, the bear season. I I'm curious again, you know, not asking about any one particular lender or borrower, but given that you've got an, you know, a vantage point of the space as a whole and sort of the the healthiness, you know, the health of the the lending space, especially as it pertains to Bitcoin.

Give and given that, you know, we saw a 50% decline in the in the, you know, asset prices that are collateral in these loans. Just from your vantage point, did you see, you know, these companies are kind of on the brink, you know, of some sort of, you know, margin liquidation event? Did we get close to that? It It It felt like that was sort of like the end of, you know, uh bear markets in the past. People are kind of calling this a bear market. I think they're looking for for some sort of grandiose, you know, capitulation event.

Do you think we're going to get that this year or are these This is kind of a new paradigm. These companies are well capitalized and, you know, they've got plenty of margin to work with? >> Yeah, I mean, I agree with this uh this aspiration for a grandiose blowup to to to close out the bear cycle. And and that's the experience that people have that have been in the crypto industry for any period of time have. It's always been that it's been an an event-driven blow-up. Um and so they're not really able to grasp, okay, why has Bitcoin sold off 50%? I can't point to any one event that has led to it.

Um and it's only like maybe if you peel back the layers of of MSTR and the buy demand from ETFs and that institutional demand um coming out of the market for for the last 6 months that you can start to understand it. But it isn't a I can point to this headline and say this is the reason that it's happened. Um now, there were a couple of very small digital asset treasury companies that were forced sellers um and you know, over the course of the last 2 months or so. Um and then there were big headlines around that. People trying to like maybe uh to to make more of that news than it's actually true. If you think about the number of digital asset treasury companies who were created and the number of blow-ups that there have been so far, it's very few. Um and in the

worst-case scenario, they're selling a small amount of Bitcoin in order to cover their debts and to you know, restructure their their balance sheet. Um and so it's not really any excessive leverage uh that exists within the uh within the debt space um or within the Bitcoin space overall. If you look at the amount of leverage within the the crypto lending ecosystem, it's you know, at at very manageable low levels in comparison to previous cycles. Um so I think from that structure perspective, um you know, knock on wood, I'm not expecting or seeing anything that that leads to a a major blow-up.

Um and really we just need to start to have a few narrative shifts to start to bring some momentum back into Bitcoin and maybe a little bit of a decline in the AI narrative to enable some of that rotation of capital. >> I agree. I agree. Sure, thanks for spending some time with us. Congrats on on the success. I I know it's going to be a big bull market for you guys. Uh yeah, wrap. >> Joe, Joe, before before we let you go, one just to double click on, you know, the buyback mechanism that, you know, you you talked about sort of at the beginning of the show. I'm just curious, do you have any numbers around that and and you know, anything that our our community, our audience can can just understand as far as the significance of this? You know, how how much are you

guys putting into that mechanism now and where do you see the trajectory of that going? >> Yeah, so you know, to provide some context to our you know, some of the decisions that we've made around this is that companies uh go out of business not because they run out of ideas, but because they run out of money. And so we have been intentionally defensive over the course of the last 6 months to preserve cash and capital on the balance sheet um and to ensure that Maple is never having to raise capital in a suppressed environment ever again. We had to do that back in 2023 in order to survive and we never want to be in that position again. And so we have been intentionally selective about the amount of buybacks over the course of the last 6 months and reduce that quite

significantly. Now, you know, we're starting to see the potential of the market rebounding over the course of the next 6 to 12 months. Maple's balance sheet is extremely strong and so we're able to provide this guidance to the market on what uh revenue buybacks are going to look like moving forward. But we're still scaling that up and so what we've said is that when revenue is between a million and 1.5 million per month, 10% of that will go to buying back the token, between 1.5 million and 2 million, 20% and then anything above 2 million in monthly revenue, 30% of that will go to revenue buybacks. That will be in place for the next 6 months and shows the kind of exponential scaling of revenue buybacks uh as revenue increases. What that then

looks like in 2027 as our revenue continues to grow is that larger and larger chunks of our revenue go towards that buyback. And so I think this provides really real clarity to Syrup holders and potential Syrup holders of you know, our own intention is to buy back as much of the token as possible, but we're not going to do that at the risk of the short-term risk of jeopardizing Maple's balance sheet overall. >> Yeah, I think it's a very thoughtful approach. Last question, how much what what did you guys do last month? >> Uh in terms of in terms of loans? >> Or in in terms of revenue, just to put us in the are we in the 5 to 10 or 1.5 to 2 bucket?

>> Yeah, so we did about 1.25 million in in revenue last month. Um and as I alluded to, uh you know, the the loans outstanding hit an all-time high at the end of last month, and we do have a lag effect. And so, when our loans get issued, it then takes 30 days for the borrowers to make the first payment. And so, that kind of maybe gives a bit of guide on the direction that uh that revenue will be heading over the course of the next few months. >> Trajectory is certainly promising. Joe, thank thanks so much for joining today and uh you know, share share a bit more context around Maple Finance. Uh you guys are absolutely crushing it and um I'm excited to bring this uh let's get this loan balance to you know, 10 billion and beyond.

>> Let's do it. Appreciate all the support, guys. >> Thanks, Joe. Keep it up, man. >> We'll see you next time. >> Cheers, guys. >> on the fundamentals. >> All righty. Bullish. Two very bullish conversations today. Uh if Maple if on chain stables get to 3 trillion dollars, how can Maple not succeed? Yes, Greg agreed with that. Uh how can they not succeed if we get to 3 trillion? I I don't I don't have an answer. I I think that they will. Uh we got some breaking news. Here, I'm going to pull up for you guys. Uh we need a breaking news animation.

>> have a breaking news stinger transition. >> get a breaking news animation here? >> uh give a Give Leo a few seconds to find that in the old OBS scenes. Let's see if >> I'm interested in that OBS. I got the shared screen up. We got some breaking news here. >> we can get a breaking news stinger going. >> Yeah, I don't know if he I I don't know if he's got that in the in the in the uh yeah. >> What do they call the thing with that the archer puts his arrows in? >> The quiver. >> In the quiver? >> Pull the old art the bow out the quiver and ba >> Rob's wearing a dream temple t-shirt, guys. Can you guys let us know what you think about Rob's attire today?

And how about that uh that that that ibis ibis behind him? Let us know what you guys think about Rob's attire today. If you guys like it, we'll give him a pass. If not, our uh production manager Alex has some words for him after the show today is what is is what I'm hearing. >> And maybe he's >> the production manager Alex has got some words for the guy. Uh I think he needs some Michael Saylor face on that mug. Uh let's go ahead and hit it into this >> Andy for his pronunciation of the bird species behind me. He gave it two He gave it two tries. Oh, third time's the charm. There we go. >> Let's get the breaking news stinger.

Let's go, Leo. Come on, you got to get that quiver going. >> Oh, there we go. We got the regular stinger. >> Wow, that's pretty weak sauce, man. Got to say. >> The breaking news stinger's inflation adjusted. >> inflation adjusted pay raise just not coming in handy here, is it, air boys? Hyperledger Policy Center and Tradewinds XYZ met with the SEC's crypto task force to address crypto regulation. Apparently the today that crypto task force, excuse me, guys, met with representatives from Hyperledger Policy Center, Jake Chervinsky and Adam from Chainlink would be the guys.

Uh the topic discussed was approaches to addressing issues related to the regulation of crypto assets. Hyperledger Policy Center XYZ LTD and Sullivan Cromwell LLP representatives provided the attached document which was discussed during the meeting. And so, you can find the memo here on the SEC's website. And um >> Throw that thing in uh oh, it's only two pages. >> Basically, what what's being said here is Hyperledger Policy respectfully requested meeting with SEC uh crypto task force during the week of July 13th to provide an overview of the Hyperledger protocol, including its technology, markets, and relevant ecosystem participants. The Hyperledger Policy Center is an independent research and advocacy organization that seeks to advance clear regulatory pathway for Americans to access on-chain markets

such as those deployed on Hyperliquid. Hyperliquid Labs is a software development company contributing to Hyperliquid protocol. XYZ is a research and product lab building on Hyperliquid, a core contributor to the XYZ protocol. Respectfully submitted, Natasha Fassan, Jake Chervinsky, Bradley Bork, Jeff Yan, and @aliensinc. XYZ Collins, and then you've got these folks from the lawyer group. And so, I mean, guys, I was just talking about that in that conversation with Hansen about the biggest let's call it the biggest headwinds for Hyperliquid. I noted that Lighter deployed a new instance of their platform.

Um notably for Robinhood chain. But the issue with it with deploying the new instances uh well, the issue with just fragmenting liquidity I mean, we've seen this, and so I think the winning platform is going to have to have like the liquidity begets liquidity thesis doesn't really work unless you can do it all in one. And so, you want to see that play out. Lighter, I think, is going to say differently. Variational may have their own opinion on it as well. Um but it looks like Hyperliquid got a little bit of a bump here on this news. The news dropped right here. I know we're looking at a 5-minute chart, but this is where the news dropped. And so, obviously, some market participants had the had some thought this was bullish. I do think this

regulatory overhang being removed is definitely bullish. Um and you know, we'll see what ends up happening. >> I mean, I struggle with, you know, this US regulatory overhang because wouldn't it affect perps um broadly? Like on-chain perp platforms broadly? Like the same regulatory overhang that Hyperliquid is facing, Lighter is also facing, >> You're all going to face it. and Aster are also facing it. The regulatory overhang might help the CME's of the world, the incumbents of the world, but when it comes to the market share of these effectively, you know, they're all facing this at the same time. And when it comes to new growth, I think this

makes a ton of sense, but at the moment, I mean, Lighter just feels like it is accelerating, and I think Hyperliquid has to maintain you know, the moat if they want to continue to succeed and therefore grow into a broader US market. >> How's GMX looking? Uh we'll look at it in a sec. Um OI for Hyperliquid above 11 bill. Obviously, I mean, volume-wise, I mean, it's Honestly, this GVRTV is really impressive, almost flipping Lighter in 24-hour volume, has flipped Variational.

I I don't know what's happening there. >> at the But look at the volume >> And Pacifica as well, doing a ton of volume. And Raya doing a metric ton of volume in the last 24 hours. That is a portfolio company of the Rollup. Um Yeah it's >> at You're looking at volume and not open interest. >> Invest has done a little bit of volume, another portfolio company of the Rollup. Yes, obviously open interest, yes, is is uh I mean, is this this this is denominated by open interest, not by volume. Um but Jupiter has a ton of TVL.

Um so, there's just like little nuts and crannies that you can find here in the purpose market of like what's dominating, what's doing well, what's not doing as well. Um Yeah, let's look at GMX for New Type. He's His bags are on the line, so he wants to He wants us to talk about him. Um uh look at that, some consolidation here. Um I mean, Rob says TA doesn't work, but then are we literally break from some lows and we smack right dab into the 50-week SMA and pull right back from it. So, the astrological lines of the charts apparently are working, guys.

>> And remember, if your astrological lines don't work, you can always draw new lines. There's always another line that you can put on the chart. >> What do you guys think of JTX? Um have you used the platform? So, I've not really used it yet. Um it says get early access still, but I thought that they opened it up for everyone to use. >> [snorts] >> So, I'm a little bit confused as to what's happening there. But, it looks cool. Like I like it. I mean, it looks nice. But, >> [snorts] >> um what is happening here? Why is it not open for everyone yet? A little bit confused there.

To be honest. Chart looks good though. Um hype looks great all of a sudden after yesterday. Um if we're going to go to back to our TA guys, we've got a this 50 this 50 day this 50 uh SMA we need to close above it to kind of reclaim the short-term trend that we was respected here. Reclaim would be bullish. We'll see what happens. Uh lighter is just insane. I mean, we thought we were maybe going to get a pullback down, but clearly we're going to have to wait a little bit longer for that if it comes. Um I mean, guys, we were talking we were talking about Derive for a while as well.

I don't know Rob if you were had a chance to get into this. I think you were out. Um but, I think it was about this is a daily chart. So, last week some point in here I told all the guys that I had some nice information not information some nice tips, feedbacks on on Derive. So, I hope you guys got in. Um my GTO bags need help. Pacifica I love new type Did anybody get into Derive based on what I was saying last week? Did anybody get in? Um the thing is the what's coming hasn't even came out yet. Uh this is just they just got listed on Bithumb. That That was it. And Upbit. That's what happened here.

So, I mean this thing looks insane again, guys. We keep covering this. I think Rob's going I think Rob was right. Rob was like, "You guys might think I bought the top on my Zcash bag cuz I was buying at like 6 700 500 bought more. But it's really a time horizon thing. Like I think Rob in December is going to feel really good about his Zcash entry. So. >> I'm pretty much at break even. >> So, there you go, guys. So, don't hate on my boy. New type. What what What are you guys holding? Did you guys buy anything on that dip yesterday or were you just kind of hanging out?

Um as I said, I really just am waiting. I I really just want to see a reclaim here of this level of this 50-day MA level. I'm not exactly sure what it's at right now. >> Is this uh hype? >> Yeah, I just want to see this I mean basically if we close right here where where If we can close above 65 five, guys, on hype today, we're going to be looking really good for a reclaim of that level. Um obviously >> If I'm giving into the the If I'm giving into the TA cope, isn't this like a bull flag?

Like isn't that what this is? >> This whole thing? >> Isn't that Yeah, isn't that what that is? You get the triangle. >> Yeah, and it broke down. >> Pendant or whatever you want to call it. >> Yeah, it broke down. So, a a reclaim would be exactly what you want to see on this. Again, guys, we're we're not even trading this stuff like on a day-to-day. You know, we hold a lot of these things and we just kind of check in on our bags once in a while. I I just don't think we're going to make money like trying to like play every little Trump rate cut noise. Like we're just going to hold until if our guy from yesterday is right, we've got like a couple more months.

It's a bull pennant. I bought lots of Fogo and Gedo. Fogo, I haven't heard that one in a while. >> I mean, I'll be very transparent with you know what I've got. >> Yeah, let's hear your portfolio, Rob. Give us the Rob portfolio. Give us a breaking news. Rob's sharing his portfolio. Go to Rob full screen. Breaking news, Rob is sharing his portfolio. Tell us about what you got, Rob. >> So, if you're curious, and remember, my time horizon is probably longer than yours, but Hyperliquid is the number one spot

holding. All right. Bitcoin is the number two spot holding. Those are probably around 20 to 30% of the portfolio each. So, between Hyperliquid and Bitcoin in the spot portfolio, you're looking at like 50 to 60% of the port. ETH, I mean, I mean, guys, I think ETH is going to go on a generational run. All right.

Uh I think Tom Lee has taken off a ton of the supply. I think we're in a low liquidity environment. I think whenever the bottom is in, this thing is going to rally. You have Robinhood. The revenue accrual thesis isn't really the thesis. The ETH is money thesis isn't really the thesis. It's kind of both, and it's kind of neither. But, the point is that the ETH Foundation has downsized. That's bullish. ETH Labs has upsized. Vitalik has embraced gambling, and it's time to blow the lid off this thing. And Tom Lee is a generational sales guy, and he's going to go on CNBC every chance he gets in a crypto bull market and once again,

ETH is going to surprise a lot of people. There was a tweet sort of in the bear market and it was talking about the next bull market and it was saying how uh ETH is the next Bitcoin, SOL is an ETH is going to perform how Bitcoin performed last cycle, SOL is going to perform how ETH performed last cycle and so on and so forth and named several coins. I still tend to think that's true and I think ETH is going to do well. Um and it's also a major and it kind of has uh you know, disappointed a lot of people. And so I think the most hated coins tend to rally the hardest. And so ETH is uh my third largest spot holding.

Uh it comes in at around let's see. At around 18 to 19% of the portfolio. And so between Bitcoin, ETH, and Hyperliquid, uh really the top three there, you've got about 70% or more, 70 to 75% of the portfolio. And then in the remaining 25% um I've got a little bit further down the risk curve and then I do have some longs open on Hyperliquid. I've got NEAR. You guys have heard us talking about NEAR. NEAR is our exclusive AI partner. They're in a tremendous partner and we've got NEAR virtual day coming this Thursday. I tend to practice what I

preach. We talk about it. We talk to their team and it turns out that we like the coin. We like the coin. The coin is producing revenue and there are things that are really, really positive. Uh then we've got Akash. I've been talking about Akash a lot. I think it fits nicely into this AI narrative. It is a decentralized compute marketplace. I am bullish on Akash. I also had Greg on the show in San Francisco. And when he came on, I I think he just talked for like 25 minutes straight and was absolutely dialed and locked in on the Agentech economy, agents as a whole, the entire

AI setup. One of the smartest AI guys that I have talked to. And so I went and bought his coin after that. And if you had bought when we had started talking about it, then you are doing well on Akash. Uh I do own some Sky and Aerodrome and Maple Spot. I also own just a little bit of Lyra. Probably want to add a little bit to that position. Uh and then uh a couple things with some Dust. But Sky, Aero, Maple, Lyra, these are all part of the return to fundamentals thesis, the revenue thesis. These Maple's got revenue. You heard Joe come on say he did 1.25 billion in revenue last month.

A lot of that is going to start going to buybacks. You also heard him talk about the the lag effect. You guys have heard us talking about Aerodrome. Uh when you look at, you know, just in terms of revenue minus expenses as it pertains to the value flowing to the token, uh Aerodrome is doing extremely well. Uh in one of the best, really. Uh and then uh also part of this cohort is Sky. Sky has a big old balance sheet. They've got revenue. They've turned the buybacks down a little bit, but I expect those to go back up as well. This is what my my my spot portfolio looks like right now.

It's dominated by Hyperliquid and Bitcoin to a tune of 50 to 60%. Then I've got about 19 to 20% of my portfolio in ETH. That is takes us to about 70 75% of the portfolio. And then Near and Akash fit well into the AI thesis. Guys, tell me what you think about this. You're probably going to be hating on my ETH position, but you know, don't just stop there. Tell me why you love or hate the rest of my portfolio as well. And then we've got Sky, Aerodrome, and Maple that and Lighter that all fit into the return to fundamentals DeFi resurgence thesis as well. And then I've got some perps. I've got I've got I'm long on some perps.

And a lot of it is actually the same positions that I have spot, but not all of them. I'm long Zcash on perps and spot. I'm long NEAR on perps. Zcash is my biggest position on perps. NEAR is my second biggest position. Then Aerodrome, Gold, which I just totally borrowed from Citrine Research because their last article was talking positively about it. And PERP is my smallest position, but still notable on the perps side. So, that's where we're at. NEAR, Zcash, hyper liquid Bitcoin, then Ethereum and

Gold. And going down the line from there, Akash Sky Aerodrome Maple Aerodrome PERP is the extent of what my portfolio is looking like these days. Um See Andy replying to you guys in the chat. Sky turned down their buyback to pad their emergency fund. Sky is printing money and trying to work with TradFi. I agree. I think Sky has been so stable for so long. And you know, people look at the ETH Bitcoin ratio to to sort of indicate bull markets. I also think Sky, when you get Sky going, that's when it sort of signals to the rest of the market like we're really about to have some fun. And so I I I'm, you know, sticking with Sky. And then you've got

No CSM, GeoNet over Akash. Akash has to contend with the hyperscalers selling extra compute. It's a good point, but if we're comparing Akash to hyperscalers, we're talking, you know, this thing with a couple hundred million dollars of market cap and this these things with trillions of dollars of market cap. I would love to see the total addressable market comparison between those. >> This guy. So, uh no Solana. >> Man, I just I don't want to miss Solana like I missed NFTs, but I just have trouble escaping I mean, please tell me why I'm wrong, but I have trouble escaping like

the Solana is for meme coin trenchers like identity that I associate with Solana. And if I I mean, if I'm too close-minded and I cling on to that perception, >> Then you meant myself. >> then I might miss it. But >> Edward's not too happy with your lighter allocation. >> No, I I'm not too happy with my lighter allocation either. I think I do I I mean, I mentioned I have a small spot bag, but I'd love to get my lighter my lighter exposure up.

>> All righty, well, we've got um the artist >> also says ETH is on a 2-year cycle clearly and we're at 4K very soon. >> Um It's okay if you're invested in Dino coins, Rob. There's money there too, just not sexy to talk about it. >> Talk about Dino coins. I think Andy's still full port into a publicly traded that vehicle, which uh >> No, never. >> We don't have to talk too much about, but maybe >> boys. I'm good. Don't you worry. >> we exited? What does your portfolio look like?

>> Don't you worry, guys. I'm all in. I'm all in hype. All in hype per little bit of little little bit of arrow Zcash Near. >> All in per. >> Hype. Per. Dude, I'm going to this is going to Don't you guys worry. We are about to cook right now. >> Publicly traded vehicles have got to be just the most dino of dinos. >> Yikes. Don't worry. I'll see you at 20, 25. >> I have an unhealthy amount of a pump bag. Steven is 90% ETH, 10% lit. Dude, there is ETH bulls in the chat. I would do pump over Solana even with the lawsuit.

>> Would you? I have an unhealthy >> I tend to agree with that. I just ethically I find it a bit like of a moral quandary to to look at Pump Fun and see the type of shenanigans that they have going on there, especially with like the most recent, you know, you can pay people pay people to do all kinds of things on Pump Fun and that's what we choose to allocate our capital to. I I don't know.

>> It appears Jeff from hype met with the SEC this week. Just announced, yeah, we just covered that. Breaking news on the roll up. Sick transition. Epic. All right, guys, we've got Eddie Zang the founder of Arcus going to join us. Uh, he's building a DEX on Robinhood chain. This is your chance to put your questions in the chat about what is going on on Robinhood chain. If you guys recall, I had the chance to buy um Cash Cat cuz I got sent it from an Arbitrum uh Arbitrum growth team member at 40 mil. I did not buy it, but this is your chance to put your questions in the chat about what is happening on Robinhood chain.

So, let's get Eddie up. Let's get this started. Eddie, welcome to the show. Founder of Arcus, you're building a DEX on Robinhood chain, which has gotten a lot of lot of attention the last several weeks, really the last week. Uh, I would love to catch up, man. Good to have you. >> Yeah, thanks so much for um hosting me. I'm like excited to kind of talk about Robin chain and Arrakis. >> Do you own any Cashcat, man? >> I own some Cashcat, not as much as maybe I could have owned also. >> [laughter] >> Um I guess the anecdote there is um you know, as a launch partner with Robinhood, we had access to the chain before it got to mainnet launch.

Uh and so I think if people have dug into Cashcat, it was deployed um a bit before. So it was deployed around like June 17th. Um we were just curious. >> [laughter] >> Uh very curious. So we were doing kind of some some forensics on the chain. Um and we did actually see it um before it was launched. >> Wow. >> Mhm. >> That's pretty based. I saw it at 40 mil and did not buy. Um >> I think it's worse for me, right? >> [laughter] >> I have an aversion to memes. Like why am I so why do I have such an aversion? I just have an aversion to moving right now. Like I just have my core holdings and I just like I I just don't want to add anything. I'm just I'm just cozy.

Like I don't know. Maybe I'm getting old. >> I I I think I feel that way. I um before I was uh a part of uh dYdX and before we launched Arrakis, um I had a startup that did Solana trading. Uh mostly it was on meme coins and we also did some perpetuals. And so I kind of lived through one cycle. I think um yeah, maybe that also created a little >> [laughter] >> hesitancy on my part for Robin and Chain. >> Well, we we've got a initial question, I think, to set set the stage as to what's happening with Arrakis and Robin and Chain, which is uh what is the state of dYdX given this transition? Whether it be the protocol, the token, what is happening to dYdX as a result of this rebrand to Arrakis? The

token of dYdX, the protocol, well, can you just give us a all-comprehensive understanding of the state of affairs there? >> Yeah, definitely. Uh so the protocol is still fully functional. Um trading is like fully operational. Uh we're still doing, you know, like I I think an average of like $100 million a day on dYdX V4. Um so, the tokenomics are exactly the same as before, so 75% of fees are buying back the token, um etc. So, like, the actual like product is still fully functional. We also still ship any security changes, anything that we think is like urgent for like stability um on the chain. We still like monitor.

I think like what we were doing with Arcas makes um a lot of sense under like a few different lenses. Like, one was that we did like a substantial like CEO transition uh for the business. And so, like, um as a part of the acquisition of my previous company by dYdX, I took over as CEO. Um and as a part of that, we also during 10 10, I think realized that there was a lot of architectural changes that we maybe like wished were like possible. Um and that was like I think the beginning. Um the reason why we committed and launched Arcas most recently is um of course uh the partnership with Robinhood because we believe in both like having like stocks on chain and having

perpetuals for stocks on chain. And so, like, the combination of the two, I think, was like really compelling. Um that's like showing up today in like adoption numbers. So, like, stock trading uh I think we're I guess taking a feather out of the Robinhood hat here. Stock trading is like fully free. Um and we also have like many more than I think is like anywhere else because we're able to provide liquidity there. Some of that supported by Robinhood itself. And so, that's been, I think, like the idea is having like a really good like free product that's easy to use, like spot, and then having a like more pro product, like perpetuals on single name stocks, all backed by kind of Robinhood liquidity, which makes the experience like really good and allows us to kind of like rapidly list. Um and if you are kind of like a big size

trader and you want to trade like a lot of size, then using Robinhood's rails, I think, is arguably probably than anything else out there. Um so that was I think uh in like a nutshell the story of the strategy um kind of how we're focusing. >> Very cool. Eddie, there there's a thesis that Andy and I have been playing with on the show and um it's sort of borrowed from a thesis around stablecoins and if you don't mind I'll just take a minute to explain it to you and I'd love your critique and just tell us, you know, are we thinking about this correctly? Does this, you know, path make sense? Um so like I said this originally originated around stablecoins because consumer behavior is so ingrained. You go to coffee, tap your card, that's not going to change. And you know, when we look at our bank

balance whether it's a merchant or a consumer, you know, we don't see the loan balance sheet. We don't know if they're in 5-year treasuries, 10-year treasuries, right? Who has the mortgage? They just show us a number. And so on the stablecoin side, you know, we've toyed around with this idea that, you know, the banks have the ability to tokenize their deposits and really onboard into stablecoins, right? I still just tap my card, the merchant just sees a number get bigger in their account, but behind the scenes if banks want to settle in stablecoins they can choose to do so and [clears throat] and the merchant nor myself as the consumer has to change our behavior or you know, would really have any insight into whether stablecoins are being used or not. Similarly, take, you know, the Robinhood chain.

Robinhood, like, you know, a bank has all of these deposits. Robinhood has all of these, you know, equities, right? And they are the uh the holder of these equities, essentially the owner on behalf of their customers, right? My understanding is that, you know, the the the uh shareholder deposit or the the certificate of uh you know, shareholder ownership is held by Robinhood. If someone on Robinhood's platform uh buys and sells that shareholder or excuse me, that stock certificate to someone else on the Robinhood platform, the the certificate, the shareholder certificate doesn't change hands. It still just stays in Robinhood. It's just in Robinhood's database ledger, the you

know, account ownership changes from one account to the other, right? So, similarly, Robinhood could choose to tokenize all of the equities that it holds on behalf of its customers and, you know, unbeknownst to the customers, they could be trading, you know, equities. To them, it doesn't look like it changes, but Robinhood could take it upon itself to just one click, you know, migrate [clears throat] all of their equity holdings that they hold on behalf of customers over to a tokenized instance and, you know, do with that what they will, whether it's tokenized settlement 24/7. They can choose to do a variety of things once they've migrated all of their equity, uh, you know, stock certificates into a tokenized stock certificate.

And and customers never have to know or change their consumer behavior. Is generally, what do you think? Like, is this a valid Do you think this is what the plan is? Do you have any understanding of how Robinhood is thinking about, you know, migrating from a uh stock certificate world, physical stock certificate world into a tokenized one? Just would love your your reaction. >> Yeah. I mean, I think that like I guess like I don't want to speak too strongly for Robinhood itself, but I think my understanding is that, uh, Robinhood is famously a very like consumer-centric platform. Um, and that's I think why they're like the most

favored trading platform for many young people in America. Um, I think like what they're most interested in, and this is where we found a lot of alignment, is like building value for consumers because, ultimately speaking, like growth for the business is what people are like really care about, right? Um, this is a classic problem that like I think a lot of people run into is like, you know, like I think CEOs are like rewarded for like growth, not like cutting costs, even if ultimately speaking they kind of result in like the same like profitability gain, right? On average. And so, like my opinion is that they're interested in expanding the user base internationally. Uh and stocks, like free stocks, like access to American markets,

um the best performing asset class in the last 20 years, uh is pretty weak. Uh and there's, you know, maybe like in other countries there's some platforms that offer like some version of free, but there's certainly no like dominant platform like Robinhood in America, right? And Robin's international like accounts is like substantial now. It's I think it's like around a million in the UK, which is their like biggest international market. I think they announced that during the um during the last like live cast. Uh but kind of expanding like massively to like many other national markets is like a big hurdle. And that would typically require like call it like lots of like centralized licenses, lots of KYC, lots of all these things. And stock tokens um is at this moment I think now where there's enough proof points around like

some people wanting some of it that it makes really strong sense for Robinhood to like make an attempt at kind of acquiring lots of international like customers this way. Um and that's what I think is like maybe the most compelling thing. I think like the rails answer is of course like really good for like a payments company because like payments rails like have been like going down in like net cost um over time and like stablecoins accelerated that. Uh which is like really good for the end user. Um I'm not quite sure the analogy on like the rails for like settlement because as you I think broadly know, like for stock trades right now like Robin actually gets paid uh to like, you know, give the flow to like a market maker.

>> Yep. >> So, like it's the opposite arguably of like stablecoins since instead of like the, you know, payment issuer are paying money, uh they're getting paid themselves to direct the flow. And so there's not kind of, you know, positive and negative spread. >> Yeah. Another thing I specifically on the perp side that is kind of aligned with this is so right now Arcus is is you know launching perps for for Robinhood chain and then lighter also has their instance on there. Are you guys thinking about is this just two separate offerings on the chain, you know, both of them have pretty low liquidity.

Very new, very fresh. How should we think about tokenization and perps holistically on Robinhood chain as it as it pertains to you know kind of like the scope of this conversation? >> Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that like I would say that we kind of focused on expanding the scope, which is why we launched with both like stocks and perps, like spot stock tokens and like perps. And the belief was that like acquiring users, acquiring traders was like the most defensible thing over like any long time horizon. And kind of like finding value for them is what we're trying to do. And so I think we've been a little bit more focused on like having like a big wedge on like the public available

part of the product, which is like stock tokens, whereas perps is in like beta for this like reason. Like we want to make sure the product experience is like really good as we let people in and part of that's like liquidity, part of that's like you know the classic chicken and egg problem, like getting market makers and getting users and like a cycle so like people have like a good experience. And so I think that's like a little bit different. Of course like I imagine it's obvious that we're competing >> [laughter] >> for some of the same users, but I think we're competing like a little bit differently in like the tactics and the product offering. And I think that will probably increase in difference over time as opposed to like compete more closely. I have a strong belief that a lot of the reason why

people are excited about Robinhood chain is the potential to kind of bring new people into crypto rails and that stock tokens are like familiar to them and that's like a great way to do it. And so that's why we were like really focused on like that part. Also, my background is primar- primarily in consumer tech. And so like expanding the user base kind of not always fighting for the same proprietary users, I think was a really good cornerstone of what we're trying to do. >> Could could you unpack sort of what the the asset composition on Robinhood chain looks like right now because, you know, Vlad has gone on CNBC and talked about RWA tokenization, you know, really really great.

But, you know, all that we've been hearing about on Twitter has been cash cat, right? So, these two feel a little bit disconnected. You know, we understand permissionless, you know, deployments of meme coins. But but the KYC and, you know, maybe the to- stock tokens as you call them is a bit different of a path to scale. Could you, you know, kind of unpack like what is the token asset composition look like right now on the chain? And where do you think this goes from, you know, a balance point of view? >> Yeah, I definitely. So, I think there's like a couple ways to look at it. Like one is like certain like TVLs, and then one is certainly like volumes, right?

That's I think like roughly what people would say is like the base case. So, like on a TVL basis, I think it looks like not too dissimilar to what you would expect. Like on a TVL basis, there's like a lot of lending. So, like Morpho is like the, you know, like the big lending partner that was announced as like Robinhood. I think like on TVLs, they're like around 60%. That's pretty typical. If you like take them out, then it looks like a little bit more reasonable because once again, that's the same as like on base or like on many other kind of like L2s. Like lending is like the biggest use case on a TVL basis. Of the remaining TVL, I believe it's kind of like maybe 70% is like in Uniswap pools, and the remaining 30% is like on like stock tokens and trading platforms,

roughly speaking. Of course, on a volume basis, the story is a little different >> [laughter] >> because meme coin volumes and like prices attract a lot of attention and I think there was call it a nascent audience like maybe from Solana maybe from other kind of like mean coin traders broadly that was like waiting to try something new and interesting and so on a volume basis I think it's maybe closer to like 9010. Which is not crazy because of course like mean coins have picked up like a lot at a top line level I believe Robin Hood trading volumes are slightly bigger than base trading volumes [snorts] and are about like 30 to 50% the size of

Solana. Something in that range. So those are kind of I think the mental model comparison points that I would use is I do believe of course that long term I think RWA's will have like call it like stable consistent growth in usage and adoption something that you would maybe more it's not like I don't know RWA's aren't going to at least most stocks aren't going to like move suddenly up. 10,000% suddenly down and so they're like less exciting but much more stable and I would expect them to continue growth and then of course kind of I think trading volumes on things like memes would be like very volatile over time depending on launches and you know like movement of capital between different L2s or from Solana etc.

>> Yeah. So is there going to be a new Arcus token? Is that part of the plans if you can talk about it or is it all of this just kind of directly tied into the DYDX token? >> We've alluded to as a part of the launch because of the story that you kind of mentioned because the story is more complicated having like the company have both products in market that there would be like an allocation of a future token for DYDX community holders so like we've alluded to having one so I think that's like mostly what I can share we haven't finalized a ton of things beyond that I think we wanted to kind of um, sure we are focused on making the product really good, like making the user experience really good, making sure

that we built something that was like really valuable for people. >> Yeah, love it. Last thing for me, Eddie, um, you know, we saw a lot of these perp platforms launched in the last 5 years, and we've kind of gone through these different implementations of them, and right now we've kind of set on Hyperliquid being like the de facto winner. What what what what do you think led to Hyperliquid's what seems to be more of a staying power than the previous iteration of perp decks, and what can you learn from that in this new iteration of Arrakis?

>> I think there's like a lot of things Hyperliquid did well. Um, I think it is a bit more like today, like there's maybe a focus more on what they did well and less on what they didn't do well, which every company kind of as they grow and they build things, like they already make mistakes. Um, and so I think what they did well was certainly the management of the airdrop, um, was like really well done. Um, having like a very large portion for, uh, community members, and not having like large holdings by, say, like single entities, uh, whether that was like investors or founders, um, to kind of not create as big of an overhang of like concern, um, about like price action.

I I think the other thing they did well was, uh, they did a really good job with shipping speed, which, quite frankly, we're trying to do as well. Like, I think listening to people's feedback, like being really on top of the ball with like the assets people want as they want them, having the ability to have technological innovations so you can deliver those assets faster and sooner at like better liquidity and better prices, um, they did a lot of good job. They did a really good job with. So, I would say I think those are the two maybe like big things people typically highlight. Um, I have like other opinions on like little things that they did along the way, but I think like the speed of iteration and the um like airdrop structure are both recognized as being like really well

done. And maybe different than what other people have done. >> And then, do you think your proximity to Robinhood allows you to have like edge on the tokenized equity market? Like is there some sort of like mechanism that allows you to like list faster or have better access? Or like is there anything like is there is there any material advantage on on that front being on Robinhood chain? >> Yeah. I would definitely say that because we have investment from Robinhood and we have a partnership, we work really closely with the team on like design of things. And so, you can see that kind of already apparent. Uh it's why we have like many many stock tokens um that other platforms like might not have. Um at launch because we wanted to work like very closely on like a mechanism that could provide like liquidity uh quickly even if it's not

like available on chain when the users come. So, as with any other nascent platform, like the goal is to deliver the best user experience. Um and because of the business that we're in, we have to take into account capital efficiency. Right? So, like maintaining inventory on chain for like 10,000 assets was not going to be like a great starter. Uh you can kind of like force that through with like market makers. Uh so, we did some design around having like a token uh stock token that delivers with like your price is guaranteed, but with a six of settlement delay because we're basically issuing it um out of like Robinhood's like back end. And so, that was um I think you know, maybe not something that will stay in place for like a really long time, but I think it was really good to

deliver like more availability. Like 100 tokens instead of 25, which is must what most other platforms have. Which is why I think most people uh right now most people are using our front end if they want to trade stock tokens. >> Yeah. Well, that's that that's really helpful insight to understand the tokenization the path to tokenization for a lot of these equities. And so, could you just unpack that a little bit further? Like, you know, feel free to get as technical as you'd like you know, in terms of you know, there's pricing guarantees as you mentioned, uh but there's a settlement delay. And so, these things are still sort of in Robinhood custody, I'd imagine, but it it it means that you can choose to have less inventory of the equity on chain, so you don't need to tokenize as much.

Can you just talk through some more of the mechanism here to understand how, you know, you've currently gone about this listing, what that means for the tokenization? Do they need to be tokenized or can they stay equities? Yeah, could you just, you know, explain this a little bit further? >> Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I think there's like a couple simple points. One is, of course, that in crypto, you know, in crypto blockchains, most of the liquidity exists where the liquidity is best, right? So, like you don't go and trade like a Solana coin on like base. So, obviously most of the stock liquidity is in the New York Stock Exchange.

So, like off chain. And the problem was you're trying to create like a new pool, like call like an on-chain pool of like the video stock and like US dollars. Uh but that pool has to like constantly be rebalanced to like match like the actual price, right? Uh and there was some innovation that was done well, I think, when it comes to like allowing prices to be streamed. And so, that like helps like a little bit. Uh the advantage there is, of course, you get immediate settlement. So, like when you trade against that pool, you get immediate settlement, but there might be some like lag, right? Between like the price correcting because the pool is not the definitive source of price truth, right? So, what we did is um basically for some tokens, if they don't exist on chain, say like

I don't want to like publicly name like a shitcoin stock, but just like a smaller [laughter] stock. It's like a smaller stock that might not be maintained. Uh what happens is, of course, there's like a price feed coming off of like, you know, Robinhood's back end effectively that's like real price data from the New York Stock Exchange. >> Based on their order book. >> Yes, exactly. And so, like what happens is like we receive like an order from like a user, say like on Robinhood chain. Um we we lock in the price because we can see it, but like it takes some time for Robinhood's infrastructure to like actually issue the token. So, what happens is we like tell the user the price, they get it.

>> So, >> [clears throat] >> it's almost like tokenization on demand. >> Yeah, it's basically it's similar to like an escrow contract in some ways. So, like what happens is that like, you know, like the user knows the amount they're getting. We give them You can see it if you just use our front end, by the way. We have like a little column that says like settled and unsettled. Um and your price is locked in, but you might have like some unsettled for like a minute or two. Uh cuz that's about about the amount of time it takes to like issue the token uh and settle. So, what happens is price is guaranteed, but what's happened is the user's like US dollars, USDG in this case, is like an escrow, and then the market maker will then deliver the token to receive the escrow. And so, they've already

>> the stock token. >> Correct. Correct. So, like what happens is that like the user puts the dollars in, they get like a wrapped like call it like Nvidia token, and then when the real Nvidia token gets put in, then the market maker gets the US dollars out. And it's like a very simple escrow contract. >> And is this like a permissionless liquidity provisioning ecosystem, or is there white-listed market makers that have the ability to issue those tokens because they own the equity? >> Yeah, so we've um we wanted to kind of be safer. So, right now it is like permissioned. Uh we have the ability to maybe make it like permissionless like later. Uh part of the question was that the design was structured to optimize for user experience. And uh we

didn't want to kind of have to deal with like a lot of like trust um because the major caveat is uh if you don't like trust the market makers, then say like they've like agreed to this, and then 2 minutes pass, and for some reason the price has moved like dramatically. >> [laughter] >> Uh then of course they could hypothetically, you know, like take the difference, and uh we have like a trusted list that won't do that, which is why like this current system like works really well. >> And so, once it it feels like it's you know just-in-time tokenization. Like there's not like this broad swath of tokenized you know like things you didn't you know Robinhood didn't decide we're going to tokenize a hundred million dollars of like our most popular equities. It's like no we're going to be based on user demand. These things are

going to put in the use the human users are going to put in orders and when they put in those users in order to deliver their purchase order for an equity we're going to tokenize that stock on demand and deliver that on chain. And so over time we would anticipate that there's a greater and greater existence of stock tokens on chain because there's really no it does this process work in reverse like it when I want to sell an equity does this tokenize stock get burned? >> Reverse is immediate because like the stock already exists. So like there's no like risk quote unquote because like you're immediately getting you know like the dollar amount on the other side.

And so the reverse is like immediate for the user. It's a little delayed for the market maker but like of course they already have the tokenized stock when they burn it. So like there's no like risk on like the price side. And I would say that the major advantage of course is capital efficiency. So like now like with the same million dollars hypothetically you can quote like an infinite number of names actually. Versus like if you're trying to divide a million dollars by like 10 tokens now you can only maintain like 100k of each token. >> [laughter] >> And obviously like as N scales it gets worse.

>> Yeah. Very cool. Very interesting. Well Eddie I wish you the best of luck man it's going to be it's quite the it's quite the mania going on there right now. So I'm sure that you're very busy and having fun. Hopefully Cash Cat gets to a billion brings the trenches [laughter] back a bit there Rob for you. And yeah thanks for spending some time with us Eddie. >> Great thanks for hosting me and great chatting to you guys. All >> Yeah good luck man. Stoked on this. Cheers man. >> Thanks Eddie. >> [screaming] >> So Rob I saw that there was a token that was I think it was a meme coin that was paying out dividends every 15 minutes, like ampleforth style, but they were paying out in like in like all these different Nvidia and Apple stocks on chain. I thought that was pretty cool.

It's like a meme coin that is paying out Nvidia stock every 15 minutes to the holders. >> And the really cool thing about that is not, my understanding is that it's not an SPV wrapper three, four times >> Yeah, I get it. >> easy stock. Because it's Robinhood. >> Yeah. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Speaking of that, let's get into our daily equity of the day, guys. I don't think you did this quite yet, Rob, did you? >> Don't believe so. I I just want to say, I mean, Eddie was fantastic. Really, obviously, you know, a DeFi native guy.

DYDX has struggled recently in the perp space. He said they were still doing, you know, significant volume per day, but just in terms of understanding from an educational point of view the way that Robinhood as, you know, a major, major, major financial institution in the equity space has gone about their tokenization journey, I think it's incredibly thoughtful, right? Incredibly capital efficient, such that they've designed this mechanism where it is tokenization just-in-time, on demand. They don't need to guess at which equities the community wants to trade most. They can go about it in a very methodical way, and I think this is going to end up, you know, paying

dividends. It's going to end up making a lot of sense, and it's just it's very cool to understand how this is playing out in practice. >> We've talked about tokenized equity. >> Edward says I'm not convinced. Good luck. Hype and lit. >> Edward, I think your bag bias is showing. Look, not even to say that not even to say that I mean >> [applause] >> But >> Edward hurt. >> I mean, obviously, this is mostly for spot assets because those are when you end up, you know, actually settling the Rob. the trade. >> Triggered him hard.

>> But But anyone this would Wouldn't this be the I'm not Just to be clear. >> He's triggered Edward, you got him. >> Edward, I don't own DYDX, man. Like let's just be Let's just be extremely clear. >> Edward, you got him. >> I want I'm just speaking about the mechanism. Andy's been way off on like technical analysis land, like super like in the head in the clouds around all these tokens and like just really, really wanting every, you know, market conditions to turn around. I don't know if he remembers or you guys remember, but we were an educational channel. We used to have hour-long podcasts about blockchain and tokenization architecture. You know, there used to be some heart and soul before all the technical analysis

>> trying to make the boys some money, you know? That's all I'm trying to do. >> took over. So, do I do I'm I don't have DYDX. I don't own DYDX. Well, you know, who knows, but the mechanism itself I would imagine that anyone with spot listings of stock tokens or tokenized equities on Robinhood chain would have this a similar mechanism. You know, that could be lighter, right? With spot asset listings that go and tokenize these stocks. It could be anyone, right? That goes and has these these stock tokens listed, right? That uses this just-in-time tokenization on demand mechanism. So, it's the mechanism that I enjoyed learning about. As far as the token, I have zero clue on whether or not it will

benefit as a result of the mechanism. >> Honestly, seems like they're just ditching it. >> Yeah, it seemed like they were going to launch a new token and DYDX was going to get like an airdrop. DYDX holders would get an airdrop of the new token. >> Oh my gosh. Yeah yikes man. >> Are you looking at the DYDX chart? >> It topped out at $28 in 2021. >> DYDX? >> Yes, at 12 cents. >> Wait, I see >> educational channels don't make money.

Hey buddy. Hey New Type, buddy. I don't know I don't know >> educational channel. >> know who which educational channel he's even looking at, buddy, but uh You You'll get there one day, buddy. Just keep hanging on. >> We survived the bear market for a reason. >> Just keep hanging on, New Type. You'll figure it out one day, buddy. Well, actually, you know what? I'm going to put you in timeout. There was a timeout on YouTube button? One more of those comments, New Type, you're going in timeout, buddy. >> [laughter] >> All right, let's get into the daily equity segment here. Uh Morgan Stanley robotics and bearings as a core robotics play. Let's get it.

>> [music] >> All right, Morgan Stanley says that bearings is a picks and shovels equity trade on robotics offering exposure without needing to pick the the winners, which would be one of the Aptronics, Figure, Robo Strategy type of plays. The The report they put out reports 300x market growth by 2050 as bearings demand scales across humanoids, drones, autonomous vehicles, and industrial automation.

Unlike software chips or robot form factors, bearings are required across nearly every motorized system, making the category more architectural agnostic. Again, not having to pick a single one. More More complex robots need significantly more bearings from eight to 12 in small drones to upwards of 70 in humanoids, creating a direct unit growth tailwind for suppliers. Major manufacturers like NSK, NTN, SFK, Timken, and Schaeffler control more than half global supply, making them potential equity beneficiaries of robotics adoption. Robotics equity trade may extend beyond AI chips and humanoid manufacturers.

And precision bearing suppliers could be an interesting category to invest in in the robotics trade. As I said, it's a very consolidated market of suppliers and manufacturers for the global roller market, which is part of the bearings trade. And yeah, guys, I mean, we're now looking at the picks and shovels of the robotics trade. Don't I think 3 4 years ago robotics wasn't even on on the mind of people. But it's fairly clearly become part of the investment landscape for people that are looking to invest in the AI physical trade. And so, wanted to bring this to your attention as a potential long-term

opportunity robotics picks and shovels play. >> I was at a wedding over the weekend. Someone asked what my 20-year time horizon was. And you guys remember I went on a 15-minute long rant about my 20-year time horizon. The thing that keeps coming up is robotics. When we think, you know, 10 to 15 to 20 years out, you know, you think AI, who knows what is happening in the AI space. It's moving so quickly now. It feels like it's peak acceleration right now.

And so, if you do get a deceleration force, I don't think that's necessarily bearish. I mean, people are calling, you know, you know, that you could have a theory that, you know, the the deceleration of the the AI trade would, you know, crash the whole market. I don't necessarily see it that way. I think you can accelerate through a lot of what's happening in the AI space and potentially see a rotation trade into, you know, crypto in the near term, digital assets, but also robotics in the long term because you do have now this, you know, this technology, this brain, this mind that is able to fuel further technological growth in the hardware space. So, now, obviously, and so I was I was speaking

with someone who's a data engineer for like a healthcare company, but had experimented in robotics, and he was talking about how it used to be the case that these movements for these robots when they, you know, take a step, that was hard-coded. They would literally have to program in, right, like a command line interface, when this happens, then take a step with this velocity, with this length. All of that is is programmed away and replaced with a probabilistic engine that is predicting how long should my stride be, how fast should it be. All of this is done now with LLM on the fly. So, I think we're going to see the explosion of the robotic space. I think now is an

absolutely tremendous time to get in early because we're only going to see more growth. The only thing that I think can stop this robotics train is going to be regulation, which obviously isn't, you know, something that we're going to deal with in any sort of innovative asset class. So, you have to be, you know, paying attention to the to the regulators when it comes to robotics, but right now, right now, we are in this race with China because they have such a tremendous lead as it pertains to humanoids in particular, but robotics generally. So, I think the US is going to really try to accelerate to catch that up.

Um, and I I I think, you know, this is going to play out on a, you know, 10 to 15 to 20-year time horizon. When it comes to the bearings trade, you know, and and the picks and shovels of what the robotics market needs in order for it to work, I can't help but think about the analogy of chips in the AI market Yep. I think is analogous to bearings in the robotics market. So, if I'm looking at this, I mean, I tend to like look, you know, when you have Morgan Stanley and these like super large institutions calling, right, it almost feels too late, but I would make an exception in this case. I think this is still an extremely new, innovative industry, um, and bearings make sense, you know,

because they are instrumental in these pieces of hardware. Um, that, you know, I would take a flyer on a on a bearings index, for sure. >> Ladies and gentlemen, that's your daily equity robotics picks and shovels plays is here. We are now in the next iteration of the robotics trade. That wraps up our daily equity for today and brings us to the end of today's show, Rob. Um, man, thank you for sharing your portfolio with us today. >> My pleasure. I want to give a shout-out to all the white ibises in the world.

I've got one right here behind me. >> There you go, man. >> It's And the reason I'm shouting it out today is because this picture won't be here tomorrow. There's going to be a new picture. So, guys, >> Here we go, guys. Let's see. >> W's in the chat. Tell me what picture I should get up there. >> Guys, great show. >> W's in the chat. Oh, white ibis. Thank you. >> We love you guys. It has been a It is hot as hell in the studio today. And the market's great. Uh, we were down bad yesterday, and today we're so back. So, what does that mean for tomorrow? I don't know. >> Tune in tomorrow to find out.

>> tomorrow's going to be a pretty neutral day, if I had to bet. So, guys, I mean, this is it. I mean, you you know where we stand. You know where we're at in the long-term cycle. >> You know where to find us. >> Are you at grandma's house? Little Miss Gun says to you. Obviously in Florida. I'm glad you said that, Little Miss Gun. I think he needs a little bit of that from the chat. W Greg, W Christian, W Little Miss Gun, W New Type Edward. Guys, hit the like button. It It helps us a ton. Thanks for rocking with us. Thanks for being a part of the show. You know where to find us tomorrow, 12:30 p.m. Eastern, live from the financial capital of the world. Signing off. This has been

Wednesday, Tuesday, July 14th show, The Roll Up. Here. The future of finance is here. Thank you. >> [music] [music]