🚨LIVE: STRC Down MORE?! Venice ATH, NEAR Bulls Winning. Jords & ORE Founder Call in

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[music] Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the [music] most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. [music] adding it to my library every day. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at connect day one here on the testing from space. [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. >> [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions.

It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] Heat.

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[music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> Let's get it, man. Welcome back to the rollup, ladies and gentlemen. I believe Hyp is going to flip Salana in price on this stream. Rob, welcome. Welcome. Great to have you as always, man.

Welcome. Started laughing. They didn't they were not happy about that appearance. Welcome back to Tokenization Tower, the nest broadcasting live from the financial capital of the world. You're watching the rollup. Today's June 3rd is a beautiful day in New York City. We would not be here without our friends at Bloom powering their nest product onchain asset management built for you guys on Shane. Guys, we had a fun fun show yesterday and we will continue to have fun while you know things out there aren't so aren't so fun. I mean guys, what what is Bitcoin's at?

657 still under those levels. My goodness. Um, wow. And hype is 50 cents away from flipping soul in price, which is >> wow. >> Which is wow. Yeah, it's definitely a little wow. Um, yeah, Rob. So, market this morning was like super hot. Came out swinging and then I mean Bitcoin just can't find its footing. it cannot find its footing. So, um, what a show. Yesterday, Purr gamma squeeze. It's biblical that, you know, uh, Capital Flows comes on and PER is down 7% the next day. I mean, that's just like that's just like classic crypto behavior. Um, but yeah, bro, uh,

beautiful day up here in New York. Happy happy Wednesday. Happy hump day. Yep. >> Yeah.

I agree. I agree. All right, guys. Let's get into today's topics and the weather and and the markets and keep this thing rolling. Uh we are live from the tokenization tower. We got that today. We've got markets and weather live from New York. Uh George is going to join the show. He's a big hyperlquid bull. We're going to talk to him about his thesis, what he's been seeing out there, what what he's been doing. And we got OR's founder who is a privacy project. Um and we're going to get him in. We're gonna talk to him about what's happening there and talk about privacy on Salana and yeah, should be a good show. Uh, as always, our today's topic is powered by Treasure. Use code rollup10 at treasure.io to get yourself a hardware

wallet today, guys. Do not use a hotware wallet. >> Awesome. Uh, we are here. We've got a great show. Making sure that the audience can hear me because I've got a lot to say and we've got a great show for you guys. Let's get into it. Uh before we do, I believe we are going to tell you guys about our uh stablecoin sponsor uh FRA. Let's go ahead and talk to you guys about OpenStable Borderless Money. It is Frack. Uh these guys are going to be coming to the studio this week. Lots coming up on this side. Very, very excited. Let's go.

>> Thank you. Thank you, White Millionaire, for the uh heads up. out there. It is 79 degrees in New York City. It is a beautiful day. Uh, as always, our weather is powered by our friends at relay.link. We're going to run through this real quick. I can already see it's a beautiful day out there in Florida. Uh, as always, as always, let's move into the markets. Before we do, let me tell you about Dinari, our tokenized equities, but we're here on the show powering US equities onchain. Visit dinari.com, guys, to learn more about onchain access to public markets. Guys, Bitcoin's at 16 659.

Uh, Ethereum's at 1826. Another media company, Melkro, just announced that they they uh have one of their analysts sold all their ETH. So, I don't know why. Like, David Hoffman is getting yelled at for selling all of his ETH. Salana is at $72. >> Like, wow, guys. Hype is about to flip soul. I mean, hype is at 72.15. sold's at 72.7. We've been saying this for a while. I don't own any Salana and it's just this is this flip is going to happen. It might happen on the show today. So, I don't think it's too late still to you know move out of the old the old world and into the new world.

But yeah, I mean the other big situation, Rob, is Stretch STRC, the Micro Strategy stable coin or, you know, the Micro Strategy dividend yield product is down to some of the lowest levels it's been since August, since its launch. I mean, I'm going to pull it up now. It's trading at 95. >> And obviously, this thing is meant to be a stable coin. So, the dividend is variable while the price is fixed. This is kind of what's different enough for this product. Uh which makes it a little bit unique. People loved it when it was going well, but obviously now that stable coin >> has fallen off peg, if you will.

>> Yeah. And then near is trading at three and a 3.05 3.08 this morning, pulling back a bit. It's up 12% today. I mean it's I mean near bulls are winning. I mean that was the title of the stream. Near bulls are winning. We had Mando come on yesterday and tell us how bullish he is on near. So, as always guys, our digital assets market is powered by Zama, building confidential blockchain infrastructure using fully homorphic encryption, bringing privacy to onchain applications. Check out zama.org. Equities kind of mixed um still strong. I mean, we're seeing an insane insane rally in AI stocks um and everything that that's happening there.

Oil is kind of up a little bit today, a little bit elevated. You don't want to see that. Um crypto is just I mean, Bitcoin is just struggling. Majors are really, really, really struggling. So, [snorts] all right guys, let's get into the news. Rob, I know we have a lot to cover, but before we do, let me tell you about Near the blockchain design for AI AI native applications and autonomous agents start developing today at near.org. You got to love the dog bark in the back. Rob wanted to pull up this post first and I can see why because guys, if you've been watching the show and guys, I see you on on YouTube in the chat or on Twitter, say what's up. We will answer your questions and we will uh we will rock with you guys. Anthem says new thesis alt season while Bitcoin chops itself to

death peak froth in four to six weeks before the bottom falls out on majors and we make new lows. Yo yo yo new type what's up do you agree with this right like do I mean this is what's been happening but like it is we are speedr running Anom's take here like we are speed running this because if you look at this chart this was posted June 1st so on Monday literally um on on Wednesday we're already at the bottom of the squiggle >> we're literally at the $65,000 mark on the screen and I mean is is that it everyone Everyone, hello Ninang Chan.

We're trying to figure out if we're in old season or if we're literally just uh about to fall out. Rob, what's your take here? >> This is a new paradigm. We've never seen these market conditions before where macro and and majors are struggling as much as they are. And a very select choice cohort of assets is doing very very well. uh pushing, you know, pushing monthly highs, yearly highs. In the case of Near, uh you even have things like Worldcoin doing extremely well. Ethena is up%.

>> Why is WorldCoin pumping? Is is that just like a Sam Alman IPO? >> It's it's everything with AI. It's the AI bottleneck trade. People are looking to hedge open AI world dominance in the surveillance state. So, they're buying Worldcoin. They're buying near, you know, they're buying Venice. These things are all related. They're all part of the AI bottleneck trade and people are looking for that in crypto and not looking for it in equities because equities are all uh you know they're they're all flying as well. So um how sustainable is this? Like >> it we've always seen how Bitcoin chopping tends to produce or a rangebound Bitcoin market tends to produce the most favorable conditions

for altcoins. >> But it's usually in bullish phases, not in this phase. >> Exactly. Not when it's a long time high timeframe bare market. >> Yeah. >> Jingo says if his pred if his pred prediction was alt season and Bitcoin shop well then that's not really what we've had. New type says we got to find a better term Rob. I mean this is what you just said. It's not alt season. It's you know it's not just throw a dart at the wall and make money. It's definitely coin picking season. It's trying to figure out like you know it's actually the most straightforward market ever. like Near, >> Zcash, Hyperliquid, now Lighter a Bit and Venice, but really it's those first three in Venice. And then you got like

Lighter kind of picking up a bit now. World coin picking up big humanity protocol was absolutely flying. So you got kind of like these like the way that Arthur said it on the show was you've got like the winners and then there's always there's always going to be like the dogs and the dogs will run but you know he's got his bet on the winners and like the leaders and the dogs will always run. Lighter is kind of like the dog to hype. Um you know you could even say is kind of like the dog to Zcash. You could say that there's a couple other of these. Um >> World Coin is the dog to >> Venice almost Venice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. or grass is the dog, bro. ZRO bottom is also in that tweet they put out basically said VCs are in. I agree, but I know that they're I mean I don't necessarily actually agree. I don't know what's going to happen there because they have that massive hack to work through and that's not going to be an easy thing just to work through. I mean that was like an oracle or bridge 1010 like that caused some fragment from fractures in the market structure that I think are going to be felt for some long for some time in their business >> and that's going to cause some some knock on effects. Um >> it's not going to be that like simple and straightforward.

>> Andy I think we got to just I I think we got to just boil this down to like do we agree with Anom here or do we not? And and maybe it's too early to tell, but I I want to believe I want to believe that honestly, even though Bitcoin is such a major asset to this market class, I want to believe that people are moving out of Bitcoin and going into Zcash, they're moving out of these assets and going into more fundamental ones. And I want to believe that if we do get some high market cap runners, it's not like Zcash near these things are top 20. Zcash I think is 14 last time we saw. Hype is top 10 now. Zcash is number 13. Uh Hyperlquid is number 10. Near is number

29. World coin is 51. These things aren't low market caps where alt season you know could sometimes you know come from that like very uncorrelated very bottom of the barrel risk curve market. These are >> like medium well market caps like like medium to high market caps here. Yeah. carrying billions of dollars of valuation. These things are enough to potentially offset the fraction the fracture fractures that we're seeing in the Bitcoin market. And I think we could see this typically the rising tide comes from Bitcoin because that's kind of all you need in order to move some real capital and then you kind of get this wealth effect that flows into the rest.

But if you get a collective rising tide from, you know, hyperlquid >> Yeah. I mean, if you total up those if you total up those market caps, you're I would have to do the math, but I think you're probably you're what hyperlquids, you're looking at a 100red billion, maybe >> 100 billion. >> Yeah, close to it. Um, depends on how you count. And look, I also want to believe I just want to believe that Bitcoin is going to hit a bottom sometime soon and like be able to get back up to the 70s, come back down to the 60s again. That would be fine. That would be ideal for for this scenario.

What what we can't have happen is this bottom to fall out like now. Like if the bottom falls out now, we're in deep trouble. I don't think that's going to happen, though. I think Bitcoin's going to find some sort of bottom this month. It's going to have a little bit of a bullish June, bullish July, and then from there we realize like either we're screwed further and we need to go lower or that was it. And those are kind of the two scenarios. Zcash stops producing blocks for four hours and price didn't drop. I think this is a terrible situation, but market doesn't give a f. I know, but I think that was fake news. >> Fake news on the Zcash hard fork.

>> Yeah, Merk said you can literally just go check the chain. These guys are aggregating news slop. It did not happen. So, I saw that too this morning and I was like, yikes. Um, Rocky, Rocky, what up, man? Good to see you. Yeah. So, Rob, I agree. I think that we just cannot have the bottom fallout here. And who's the freaking who is the problem here? Let's go ahead and flip to the next screen. It is this guy. It is this guy at the forefront of causing this thing right now with his people are saying that he took the most uncalculated risk with his uh stretch product and he didn't need to do all of that and it's causing some serious serious issues.

Down 8.5 billion I think now Tom Lee's down what like nine billion as well. Um it yeah it's it's not great. It's it's not great. So I don't know what what we want to see here for Sailor, but he's been through a lot more than this. He's struggled a lot harder than this, Rob. Um I think he's going to be fine. But, you know, it's funny that Chris put out that tweet that was like um they'll blame Sailor, but really it was always on the cards and like everyone's literally blaming Sailor right now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And look, we know that the 32 Bitcoin sale isn't going to move a trillion dollar asset like Bitcoin. >> Yeah. >> Um but it does signal to the market that he is open to selling. Uh he needs to fund these dividends. And even though he is funding these dividends, the market doesn't like it. Stretch is selling off. I think it's at 95 uh percent uh you know of of par. And so Stretch doesn't like it. Bitcoin doesn't like it. And this is a potentially cascading psych, you know, vicious cycle that could >> you just don't want to see it, you know, you just don't want to see it. You just do not want to see this.

>> And it's okay if there's a catalyst that would offset, you know, these sales with some more institutional buying power, but we're not >> they're going to wait. They're going to wait till lower. The institutions are going to see Bitcoin in the 60s. They probably already see this right now and they're like, I'm interested. But if this thing gets lower, they're going to be really, really, really interested. And look, man, I hate to say it, but I don't want to own an asset that Sailor owns 3% of. I don't want to own an asset that Tom Lee owns 5% of. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. They those just don't feel like what I signed up for.

>> I want I'm going to push back a little bit on at least the the Tom Lee thing is easier to push back on and and I think there is probably uh similar effects to to Bitcoin, although we haven't quite seen it yet from Sailor. The push back I have on Tom Lee is that Ethereum Foundation is reducing its power and its stronghold in the ecosystem. Typically, you had that organization owning significant portions of the network upwards of 5%. And so, we effectively have Bit replacing the Ethereum Foundation and we heard Tom Lee recently at Proof of Talk in Paris say that he's interested in funding development programs, funding grants, and continuing to push the ecosystem forward. But the same guy saying 250,000 because tokenization and AI companies are going

to become Ethereum validators. >> I could see it. Honestly, I I could see it. And >> yeah, but you're you're riding this train down. Of course, you could see it. >> Here's here's the parallel. Hyperlid has been able to do this by not incentivizing any of those outside companies. They come in, they stake the the treasury companies that you're bag biased towards. They're coming in and they they have no incentive to do that other than the asset itself. Tom Lee is the exact same thing for the Ethereum ecosystem. They didn't the only difference that hype didn't have a foundation beforehand for the tra treasury company to come in and take take its spot. Bit Ethereum started out with the Ethereum foundation.

>> Rocky tell us now Bit mine is taking place of that. And so it's the same exact new show for hype and Rob for hype. >> More and more of these companies are gonna come in. They're not incentivized to do so based out of their entirely own valition. They come in, they buy up the asset, and then they start to make contributions to the ecosystem. Sailor's missing that. Shouldn't Sailor be contributing to Quantum? Shouldn't >> tell us if Rob should sell his ETH bags for hype? >> Should Should Rob sell his ETH bags for hype? All right, guys. We're >> Hold on. I have one thing to say about that, which is because of the recent price performance, my hype bag is bigger than my ETH bag right now.

>> Wow. Let's go, man. Guys, hype is 35 cents from flipping soul. I'm telling you, it's going to happen on the stream today. Um, in other news, the stock market just keeps ripping and there's a wild wild phenomenon happening of just the types of ownerships of these equities. Um, we're going to get into our daily equity segment powered by our friends over at Dinari. Let's get into that. Let's talk about the stock market a little bit and what's happening there. This is a stat that I was not necessarily expecting. Foreigners own 19% of US stocks. The US equity market

ownership has undergone a historic shift. Foreign investors now own a record 20 trillion or 19% of all US equities. This percentage has nearly tripled since 2000. This has been part of this kind of like uh push away from emerging uh markets in back into the US. But actually that trend is kind of like reversing back into emerging markets. Furthermore, passive mutual funds and ETFs hold 17 trillion dollars in all-time high accounting for 15% of all of US equity ownership. So this is like your mom, your dad, their 401k, their their pension, their, you know, um, S&P 500 with their with their, you know, advisor type of thing. Since 2008

crisis, passive fund ownership again has tripled. Why? Because these advisers have came in, made a ton of money, and they've just done that by basically allocating, you know, mom and pop into the S&P, and they've done extremely well. Um, and if you scroll down a bit, you you can see that over the same period, the weight of active mutual funds has also increased significantly. And so, I mean, look, at the end of the day, like, we're firmly seeing equity ownership increase. We're seeing boomers get rich off of equities. We're seeing equity market fly. Um, it's it's insane.

Let Let's go ahead and check out the full graph. And New Type says 100% sell your ETH for hype. So on uh on on what we have for for the on the screen here, ownership share of US corporate equities. Um you see mutual funds trending down, foreign investors trending up, passive mutual funds trending up. Um and and so what we have here is that active mutual funds selling off, but obviously passive continues to accumulate. Uh foreign I I think two I have two things to say here. One is that I have my prediction is that this foreign proportion of investment continues to rise. I think right now it's 19%. Uh I think we ultimately get to a point that is upwards of 30%. And

the reason being is because if you look at the treasury market right now about 30% of US treasuries are owned by foreigners. Um last uh the last uh table that was issued by the Fed said that out of the uh 30 or so trillion dollars of treasuries that are outstanding, foreign holders own about $9.35 trillion of US Treasury securities. Uh that's as of March 2026. That's about 30%. Um and so uh we could also extract also what what we have here is that um about 3.9% or excuse me 3.9 trillion of that 9 trillion is uh foreign official holdings meaning central banks. So about 30% of

US treasuries overall are owned by foreigners. About 30% of that is owned by central bank foreign governments. I I think we're going to continue what we're going to see is that start to seep into the equities market. M >> and so I think as equities continue to rise, the bond market is a bit out of whack. We're going to see a transition from US Treasury holders uh in foreign owners of US Treasury holders into foreign ownership of US equities. I think tokenized equities are going to accelerate this. Um and and I think >> two things are going to have to happen or I think we're going to have to replace the ownership of the treasuries, right? if they choose to move uh from US

treasuries into something like gold, which is what we already saw happen, or move foreign ownership, move from US treasuries into US equities, someone's going to need to buy the the US debt, >> right? And and stable coins have been kind of like the the cohort of of companies that we believe are going to come in and kind of save the day when the US needs to issue its debt. Um that still remains to be seen but ultimately this is what's happening. I I think the interesting take >> the question to ask here is is this a problem? Is it a problem that we have so much foreign ownership of US equities?

>> I don't have an answer for you. >> I I mean >> what I will tell you is that soul's going to lose to hype on the stream. >> My my gut says that it's not a problem right now. I think we've still got a long way to go. I think we want American investors invested in the American economy first and foremost, but I don't think it's necessarily a problem if we can increase this proportion a little bit and we get foreign investors involved in US economy as well and we get broad distribution for this. >> Um, I mean, if you >> So, I actually think that that there's going to be a shift back towards emerging markets. The EM index is breaking out of 20-year highs. that's EM on any stock brokerage that that you know you can look at and there's been

this kind of redistribution of power away from the US away from kind of other jurisdictions. So that'll be interesting to see. Guys, this is our daily equity show powered by dinar. Let's give them some love. Guys, they are absolutely absolutely crushing with their DShares product. Guys, we're going to get back into the news. Before we do, let me tell you about Infinifi, our DeFi partner. Building DeFi infrastructure for simpler access to onchain yield liquidity and capital allocation. For more efficient onchain finance, visit infinifi.xyz. The dogs are out. I largely think of crypto as a failed asset class. Wow, what a take. I think I responded to this and said sideline question mark. Um, so Krueger is a pretty big like macro

investor. has done very well for himself. And basically the point that he's making here is that most crypto assets are worthless or have dreadful value cruel. And most founders have absolutely abused the lack of guard rails and made a ton of money, right? And so guys, if you've been following the show for the last several months, we have been hammering in the chat talking to you guys about this, telling you guys that we have a very small set of tokens that we're in that we believe in and why. Well, we tweeted revenue meta a year and a half ago. We tweeted return to fundamentals way too many times and it's just what's happening. There are not that many investable assets in the

space. Like, trust me, this doesn't get me more sponsorship dollars by saying that there's only so many assets that I'm interested in. Trust me, it doesn't help me in my business. But [laughter] what happens is it if you don't adjust to this and if we don't force this change on the industry, we're never going to get out of what Alex is saying. So, until we as an industry come together and accept and bid like we're doing right now, hype, uh, Venice is making a ton of money. Uh, Grass is doing well. Um, uh, this company or that's coming on is doing well. Um, Lighter is doing well. Um, Aerodrome is doing well. Uh, there's a bunch of these tokens that are making money. Sky is doing well. And they're actually reallocating that money back to the

assets. We're never going to get away from this, but this is exactly what all of us have been feeling for. I mean, I don't know how long. It's been months to years that we've been feeling this way. It's been it's been depressing. It's been not what we came here for. And this is also part of the thesis that is like adoption goes up but prices don't. I think that's why you're seeing some of the majors pull back. Fortunately, in the last couple of months, we've actually had some positive price appreciation. So, there's something to talk about here. But yeah, I mean this take is something that all of us are realizing and that is why you're seeing the capital flow into where it is. If you're not making money, if you don't have a real path to revenue, if you don't have a damn good story, if you

don't have good tokconomics, if you don't have a founder that actually knows what they're doing and is, you know, trustworthy and public, and if you don't have a real in institutional appeal, ETFs, ETPs, a plan for institutional adoption, there's you're going to just be stuck in this old era. And that's that's the reality of it. And so from the allocators perspective, right, like what is our job? While speculators and allocators, they don't really control. They're not necessarily builders and founders. We can we can vote with our capital. And I am just glad to see that we are voting with our capital right now. And we are, you know, t like this is literally what the chat is saying.

Isn't hype making more more revenue than ETH? This isn't rocket science. Just buy the tokens that are making money. Like I know it's not that like black and white, but like at least if we're voting with our capital, then that's how we can vote. So that's my take on this. >> I love a good rant from Andy. Um, yes. Also, the comment about, you know, not shilling random nonsense tokens helping our our sponsor is saying that there's only a couple tokens to buy does not help our business.

>> It's so real. It's so real. Um, look, I I think if I I I I think crypto Twitter, which if you guys know me, you know my feelings about crypto Twitter. Uh, >> not a big CT guy at all. It's a It's such a reductive cesspool of toxicity because people read this and they think that Alex's take is bearish and it's obviously rage baiting people by saying crypto is a failed asset class for sure. But if you actually read the post, what it's saying is that there is categories this like this like boiling brewing like brew haha underneath the surface of the slop that is actually what he calls like the the the the beginning the new

beginnings and he calls out all the same narratives and cohorts that we talk about on this show. It's revenue, privacy, and AI. And this is all we've been talking about with respect to the digital asset class in the last few months. And so what he says, and he ends it by saying crypto is dead. Long live crypto. He's saying that crypto >> super cycle, memecoin, gamble, fi slop is dead. >> Yep. >> Insider VC dump fest is dead. High uh lowflat high FDV is dead. And then he s and then he says long live crypto. And what he says is long live revenue producing companies that pass value back to its token holders. Long live private

crypto cipher punk ideals, libertarian ideals that are giving real privacy, real sovereignty to an underbank, underserved population. Long live that. long live AI in decentralized, sovereign, open-source, not explicit, not not, you know, selling your data to the cloud overlords crypto. Long live that. And so there are these these things that have always been here, but they get covered up by the slop and the buzzwordy, you know, money grabbers, the bull market warriors, as we like to call them. That is dead. And I'm so glad the market is now realizing this. And you're right, voting with their capital, voting with our capital, away from these things

and going into the things that have been here all along but have been covered up and are now making a new resurgence. It's very, very exciting because it feels like we're returning to our roots. And this is something that I think >> and that is the only way that we're going to get a pump, guys, is if we return to the roots. Like this is like very compelling from an investment thesis. Like being able to put your money into Zcash and like have Uncle Sam not be able to see it is like very compelling. being able to like do crosschain private transactions. Very compelling, taking over the entire complex right behind me here down in Wall Street.

>> And Rugrat, Rugrat here in the chat is right. The market is maturing. This is signs of a of a maturing market. What's immature is when memecoin dog with hat goes parabolic and you're like, what is happening? This is irrational. What what we have now is a much more mature, sophisticated market. It's uncorrelated and we're seeing the winners separate from the losers. We're seeing the real mature legitimate projects separate and outperform from the slop. And that's what you want to do. That's where you want to allocate your capital, not financial advice because that is ultimately the real businesses that are sustainable for decades. And that is where you should be allocating your capital. Um the other thing >> I just got a text uh says hype about the flip soul from my brother. The other the

other thing to uh to notice in this post is he says there are these are more you know and he mentions stable coins you know uh more pro- crypto regulatory environment tradies tokenizing equities commodity per prediction markets uh these are more blockchain than crypto. This is the other thing we've been saying the it's blockchain not crypto it's blockchain it's bit it's blockchain not bitcoin it's ethereum not e it's hyperlquid everyone's saying it's hyperlquid and hype because the token's a product when it comes to that but all of these things are happening I think you know you have to look at the assets that are more aligned with the value acrruel mechanisms of their ecosystem and and

>> look someone in the chat said you know hyperlquid's making more money than ETH that is True, but ETH is still making a good amount of money. Still making, you know, relative to almost all of the other ecosystems out there, a quite a bit of revenue. That revenue is not >> at best. >> I mean, we can pull up the the actual numbers. I say I think it's probably in the top three or top five revenue producing, you know, companies, revenue apps, protocols, whatever, networks. The the >> I mean, you want to you want we can just look this up right now.

Okay, let's see. >> It's also ironic because returning to the roots is eventually going to bring us back to cypher punk ways. I don't see that happening for a while. I agree that is where the market is going. That is the bid. It is democratizing the finance with hyperlquid and lighter. It is privacy with near and Zcash and kind of some of the others. And then it's like a lot of the, you know, kind of private uncensored AI inference trade. Venice, Grass, some of these others that are like actually making money and doing things in the AI world. >> Um, okay. So, it looks like >> Hype is better than ETH.

>> Tether, Tether, Circle are both making more money than Hyperlid. >> Oh, yeah. Pump that fund's up there. Hype's up there. >> Yeah, Canton, it says, is up there, but that's a little weird. Poly Market's up there. grayscale bass sky paxos jupiter phantom and then you get into uh >> five hype is four cents from flipping soul >> George is about to come on in 5 minutes sorry Rob where's ETH at >> um it's down there underneath those about >> cooked gi llama fact check time yeah dude ETH is ETH is not making any money and they're and Rob your dilemma of like let's scale the chain that stellar people got so mad about let's scale the chain to infinite TPS and then let's have our business model be the same thing as let's make

money off fees. It's like >> that's like us saying like we're trying to scale the rollup but and how we're going to scale the rollup is by having hundreds of clients but not charging them as much as we would charge for uh you know one client currently or even like one it's we're going to charge less than 1/100th of a current client but we're going to get 100 clients. Look, you could also say um AI companies are hyperscaling token production and their business model is selling tokens. Oh my gosh, dude. Hype is so close to flipping soul. We have Joel or or we have George coming up. George is like a semi-retired or fully retired hyperlquid bull, I think. Uh probably talking like

eight figs to nine figs. How do you retire from a from hyperlquid? >> I don't know. That's his his Twitter B literally says retired and he's gonna talk to us about the hype trade and oh it some it did flip. It did flip. Somebody just commented because his quote tweet of the stream was jumping on this in 10 minutes. I think uh hype's going to flip soul while I'm on it. Uh we're going to get it confirmed here in a bit. And yeah, why don't we keep it moving off of uh off of Krueger here and and Ethereum before we get Rob all about his youth position again. That tends to happen a lot. Dude, I told you my hype position is bigger than my ETH position.

>> All right, what do we got? We got Gary Vee saying he's Gary Vee is a Japanese soldier here saying he's still bullish on NFTTS. There's enormous amount of greed in NFT culture and you know, including yourself, Gary, in the run of 2021 2022. Grossly underpriced. All right, let's play this damn video. This is this is going to be something, man. Wow. All right, Gary, standing up for your bags. I love it. Literally yesterday, I had lunch with someone and I showed them that $400,000 worth of board apes were bought in the last 24 hours. They were on the ground stunned. They and 99% of the world think NFTts were scams and a fad. That person

who's incredibly successful and a proper business person, I said to them, "You're shocked, right?" They said, "Yeah." said, "You didn't think there was $400,000 sold of NFTts in the last 30 days, period, let alone on one project the last 24 hours." He said, "Absolutely." Reminds me a lot of the internet in 2000 when all the stock prices collapsed. Greed >> will always set something back. There was an enormous amount of greed >> in NFT culture in that 12 month, 24-month window that ultimately hurt it. >> Um, but what I saw is what's happening today. It's a collectible. And I do believe, like I said in August of 2021, that 99% of NFTs will be worth zero.

>> But I believe that means 1% will not. And I believe based on where NFTs are right now, >> whatever the 1% are, and I do not claim to know, though, I do think Crypto Punks is one for sure. >> Now might be a good time to pick up a Crypto Punk, but that's not the point that I was going to make. My point when it comes to NFTs here is that Gary's actually right, but not for the reason that he thinks NFTs are going to make a comeback, but they're going to be for RWAS. And there's going to be KYC AML metadata embedded into some of these like equity like products that end up on chain because you need that when you're dealing with regulated products. And the best token format, token contract

standard for that is an NFT. And so Gary's talking about, you know, mutant apes or board apes or, you know, whatever NFT Gary's selling. He's talking about digital art and maybe that does come back. It would be cool. There's some cool art out there. But Gary's right because RWA's need token contract standard. And that's where we're going to see NFTs come back soon. Maybe that makes some noise. Maybe digital art comes back after that, but it's going to take it's going to take years. >> Yeah. I saw Ralph Pal started a digital art fund and um yeah um yeah I need exit liquidity is what Gary's talking about.

Yeah, I agree. New type although I think he's done just well for himself. I wouldn't I wouldn't pin him down that hard but I don't think that 400k in 24hour period. We're talking about a market here is all that impressive. Uh lol at hype is going to flip souls. Do we need to revert to 2014 to have a market cap versus price discussion? Price actually means nothing in the bigger picture. I mean, dude, it's not like we actually think that like it's flipping by market cap. It's just more of like a just more of like a milestone thing and like an a clear a clear evidence of the turning of the tide. So, no judgmental 6630. We don't need to have a market cap versus price discussion. However, I think your soul bags are showing and um

>> I I think uh if if we want to have that discussion, we got to get a Ripple a Ripple maxi up here to have that discussion. Oh god. NFTTS have value, but I'm valuing them as very nice golf club memberships. Yes, but without the ability to play golf. Um, all right. Let's get to Laura Shin here. She's actually before we do, let me tell you about our premier crosschain partner, Lee. Bridging infrastructure for crosschain swaps, bridging and routing across the chain economy. Visit Lee. For smoother crosschain execution on chain. So Laura that says that there is misguided optimism directed towards Hyperlquid on CT. This order has no effect on Hyperlquid. The order I believe they're talking about is the CFTC

um uh rule for PERBs on shore in the US. And let's watch this video to hear what these ladies have to say about it. Uh hard to say that any positive regulation doesn't help hype. Uh Jabid says if entities were to come back, which chain do you think would benefit the most? Definitely Ethereum. Definitely Ethereum. >> I do think there was misguided optimism with the price of hype and directed towards Hyperlquid on crypto Twitter because to be clear, this order has no effect on Hyperlid or any other per sexes. And if anything, arguably there's there's another contingent saying this

is actually very bad news for hyperlquid and per sexes because it does mean arguably a whole bunch of flow will move from the offshore per stack market to trade on these DCMs who can now have true perks. >> I mean, they were very smart to put out a positive statement about it, right? because that obviously helped the token and it seems like from what you're saying and from what I agree with is they're not effed and they're not also like the winner but the story maybe has changed in some way and they're going to have to decide whether they want to live in the regulatory arbitrage space which is getting smaller and smaller and

really have to prove decentralization or lean into the regulated space. And that let's hear the take [laughter] man. >> Let's hear the take. >> Oh my gosh, >> dude. The the the creator of NASA. No, not not the creator. The the New York Stock Exchange of the NYC says that Hyperlid is bigger than NASDAQ and they are trying to find ways to work together. These things are just going to Have you ever tried to trade on like Robin Hood or on like some of these platforms like Thread Guy does a great job with this where where he's like, "Dude, I tried to trade on Robin Hood and I had to KYC. My funds took three

days to deposit and the options were impossible to figure out. It was terrible and I'm never leaving Hyperlid again." Like, do you think either of these people have actually ever traded on Hyperlid? Like, have they ever deposited a dollar on there? because it's not a regulatory game. It is a product game. It is a product game and it is a superior product to a lot of brokerages, a lot of mobile apps, a lot of neo banks. On top of that, uh if there is positive regulatory action in the US for perhapid not be a a a benefactor of this like it's obvious. Now, sure, you could say the CME is going to get in the game and they're gonna, you know, maybe traders will choose to trade there rather. But,

but no, there are so many reasons why there's going to be more money coming into Hyperlquid. You got funding rate arbitrage. You've got 247 global liquidity. You've got no KYC. You have less sophisticated market makers. There's just so many reasons why this is not a great take, but I do understand it. Like I understand like all right now there's no competition for pers and if they make it legal then the hypo loses its regulatory advantage. Um but I I I think this is definitely a win for all perexes on chain and like the regulatory risk was like they were going to ban these things. Now we're talking like the

regulatory risk is like, "Oh, maybe the NASDAQ and CME will get more liquidity and users because they can and Hyperliquid won't win as much." It's like we've moved the goalpost from like, you know, perexes are going to be banned in the States to like, oh, maybe they might not make as much money. >> Well, if Annie, let me ask you a question. If it's Saturday afternoon, 2:30, and I'm an oil trader and Trump puts a tweet out about the straight of Hormuse. Yeah. >> Am I going to trade oil markets on hyperlquid or am I going to trade oil markets on CME?

>> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. I think the question is probably like I think the answer is probably like where where's the price better? Where can I get better execution? Where does my firm allow me to trade? >> What do you prefer? >> What do you what do you prefer? And I think there's a lot of there's a moat uh that incumbents have where the infrastructure is already built. Uh they already have the access controls. Uh there's a lot of like just you [snorts] know institutional bloat and vendor lock in around some of these exchanges and the more entrenched that uh some of these businesses are the the the more likely they are to choose some of their

existing venues like the CME NASDAQ uh New York Stock Exchange etc. The more nimble ones may be able to pivot and use Hyperlid because it is a better UI, better execution, maybe even a better price. But there's some people that are going to be vendor locked into those other exchanges. >> It's going to take some time for them to get set up. And I think Hyperlid could, depending on how this regulatory environment progresses, Hyperlid could have some, you know, obviously the other guys have a first mover advantage because they are vendor locked in. But when it comes to per Hyperlid could gain on that and and scoop up some market share because they're already live. But it does depend on the implementation details. Is Hyperlid going to choose to get more decentralized,

get some validators going and kind of like build out the network decentralization in that way and then they don't have to, you know, adhere to some of the broker lensures regulations that that are necessary or are they going to build out like Binance US, right? Tik Tok US and then Tik Tok, right? These are separate organizations. They fragment the liquidity. they separate these things out. Is are we going to see a hyperlquid US venue where we do have more regulations in in effect? You do have to KYC. You do have to, you know, >> you know, do some OFAC compliance checks. And then we're going to have, you know, hyperlquid proper where everyone else trades. Maybe it is better prices, but it's not regulated and

permissionless. >> I don't think there's going to be a bifurcation. I think it's going to be allin-one, and that's going to be the beauty of the regulatory clarity that we get. Um, that would be my that would be my take. >> The the one that's allin-one, is it going to be regulated or or not? >> It will be like it's just gonna like whatever hyperl whatever the onchain perexes are doing, I anticipate them to kind of like blend in with whatever is happening. Like I don't think that they're going to have to make that many changes is is my take. >> You don't think they're going to have to KYC and the US is going to allow them to serve their products to US customers >> without without doing KYC?

>> I don't know. I I I don't know actually. So I I don't I don't I Yeah, I don't know. But what I do know, Rob, is that we have George, a retired hyperlquid bull coming up on the show and uh he is a big fan of hype. He's a big Twitter guy and this is going to be a fun conversation, guys. So uh George has obviously u you know been an early adopter of the technology, a a big uh I've been a big fan of his content as well. And so this should be fun because, you know, we're going to flip soul on the show. We're now a little bit more than a dollar away. So, you know, we we had a chance there and now it's looking a little bit uh a little bit shy. So, let's get George up. Let's see what's

going on. Let's try to flip soul on the show. What do you say, Rob? >> Yep. Let's do it. Let's bring up the green square. >> I would say that's more of a teal square. I don't know. >> Minty. I'm looking at a minty green square. George, are you there? >> I am here. I am here. How are you guys? >> What's up, man? We're uh >> good to have you here. >> We're all on board with fl with uh flipping soul on this on this uh stream, so hopefully we get it done. >> I think it happened. No, I I got some screenshots on Twitter. I think for a brief moment in time, everything was well.

>> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah, man. >> Yeah, the market is healing. >> Obviously, not a obviously not a market cap thing, but a weird milestone in a way for for for crypto. I think it's just kind of decom like discombobulating a little bit, you know, like Solano's been I feel like it traded at $83 for months and months and months and then Hyperlid just kind of kept on trending up. And I mean seeing them both in the 70s just feels kind of weird, but usually you only feel weird about prices for a few seconds and then you kind of adapt and it's just the new norm.

>> Yeah. Um George, the uh the elephant in the room here is uh obviously Hyperlquid is an increasingly growing elephant and Solana is a decreasingly uh decreasing one but Bitcoin is really weird really really weird right now and you know throughout the last few days the discussion has all been about you know can hyperlquid Zcash near and and for the sake of this conversation we'll we'll focus on hyperlquid can it continue to sustain its performance Despite a Bitcoin downturn, we're seeing it hold up. Bitcoin is seemingly finding some sort of semblance around the 65 mark, but people are thinking Bitcoin is going to go lower and it puts, you know,

hyperlid in in question. How do you think we react to these market conditions? >> Yeah, it's never fun to have to kind of deal with the big boys. I I remember many times when you have exposure to weird tokens that look really strong and have a lot of power uh in like relative strength, but then Bitcoin rolls over or Sailor tweets or Elon sells or something and all of the sudden your relative strength is kind of meaningless. But I think Hyperlid's a different beast. You know, I think we've seen this whole year that trend happen kind of regardless of overall market trends. And I think that you've seen relative strength to the upside and relative strength as a kind

of in in parallel with downside as well. And I think that just comes from the to I I can't really speak about the like Ze and near strength that kind of confuses me more like if you kind of look at the hyperlquid tokconomics you can at least rationalize you can rationalize okay well you know market going down. I think Bitcoin had one of its biggest liquidation moments a couple days ago. those liquidations go towards um buying back hyperlquid and you kind of see the price balance out a little bit and that kind of in my head that always gives me comfort you know when everything is going down you go okay well if it's going down in big moves or up in big moves and that's going to feed

back to the token and >> I think you see that and then you in compar like you have that and then you also have the infinite seemingly infinite twap that continues to happen onto it and you think okay well >> this is pretty trend resistant Um, so it's I mean it's comfortable, right? I'm a big fan of having my money in comfortable places and I I can't really think of a more comfortable place for it to be in right now. >> It is cozy. It is cozy. You have some fans here. James says, "Jeeorge with three S's." Actually, we got this guy in the chat today who's been pretty hardcore on us. He says, "Convince me hype isn't GMX 2.0." How do you respond to that?

Yeah, I think there's this whole narrative that people like people like to put things in boxes and it usually means they miss out on genuine new innovation, right? Like people wanted to put it Salana in a box of it's just another L1, it goes down, it breaks, it's just the, you know, L2s do the same job that Salana is trying to do, so why would I ever bother using it? And then you also have um like you have these narratives all the time that that come and people compartmentalize them and those that aren't curious get punished by not being able to kind of go outside of their village as it were. So you have that situation happening with Hyperlquid

as well. You know, you have the people who miss the airdrop and they have immediately gone, "Oh well, I've missed the airdrop. I'm late. I'm not interested." And then inevitably from $2 like the people who didn't get the airdrop have had opportunity every day for the last two years because it's at alltime highs, right? So that's how it works. Like the opportunity isn't behind you if the token continues to accelerate. And then I think you have a lot of people doubling down and then tripling down and then quadrupling down on this same thesis that it's just a DEX regulation's going to come. I wrote a lot about this the other day where people people like to um kind of convince themselves that anything other than their bags are bad

and then their bags are good. [laughter] And they do this in very weird ways. They they say that regulation is coming and um governments are going to be more stringent about uh like regulating finance in general. And that's why I hate Hyperlquid and I'm long Zcash because privacy is the future. And you just kind of can't have both of them, you know, like you have to have an objective mindset on either. Um, and I guess I haven't answered your question, but that the question is, is uh, Hyperlid just the next GMX? And the answer is no. Obviously, you have the DEX element, which is incredibly good, and you have the tokconomics, which is

incredibly good. You have literal disruption to global finance. You have Bloomberg reporters in my DMs asking me what the is hyperlquid. You have >> no way. >> Yeah. You have you have these this is a genuine global phenomenon. Even if it, you know, gets hacked by North Korea tomorrow and goes to zero, it doesn't delete its importance to global finance right now. You know, you have the the NASDAQ and the S&P. Like all of these guys are looking at hyperlquid on the weekends and you're seeing like the biggest catalyst was Trump invading Iran like after hours on Friday afternoon.

Then the world looked at hyperlid for crude oil prices and that since then has just kind of compounded. Um and that's the deck side of things. But then you have the L1 and I'm still a big believer that Hyper EVM. People look at that and say, "Oh, it's a dead L1. Um, nothing's ever gonna happen there." That's a problem that Hyperlink would have. But unrealized potential is not a problem. It's a unrealized opportunity. And that's how I always see it. >> Yeah, we have a question in the chat here that is kind of on that point exactly, which is uh from New Type Trader asking about what some of your favorite apps are on Hyperlid. Are you using markets or a different mobile first trading app? Obviously, Trade XYZ is huge and you know, probably the most prominent app if you want to call it an

app on Hyperlquid, but on the Hyper EVM side or just generally, what is what are some of the things that you've been paying attention to? >> Yeah, so that's that's what really interests me, right? Like I was kind of early on the Salana ecosystem and I was aware of what was going on. I was trying things and being curious and there was a lot of user-based apps, right? Like you could try Magic Eden, you could try Phantom, you could try Jupiter, Orca, like these things you could use and you could try. Hyperlquid is really in its infancy with that with that side of things, right? You have Hyper Core, you have Trade XYZ, you have um unit um kinetic, those are like the things that everyone knows. But since I've been kind

of skitso posting on Twitter and trying to um talk to all the teams building, there are really interesting protocols being built and they all face really unique problems and they have face unique um benefits as well, right? and the constraints that is still on hyper EVM I still see as an opportunity but they are legitimate constraints because the team is very much focused on hyper core and they're doing a phenomenal job at that um and the there is a little bit of uncertainty of what is next steps for hyper EVM but there's a lot of people obviously building frontends and different things in that end like you have pair protocol who make that make um trading pairs very convenient I quite

like their front end um and And I don't know the the teams that I spoke to. I don't know how much I can like say on different things, but there's a lot of people building stuff that I I had a a call with a guy earlier who is trying to um kind of replicate some fun things that have happened on Salana and different ecosystems. Um and I'm a big believer that there's a lot of people right now who are interested in Hyperlid and just want to click buttons and try things, but there's not a lot of stuff to click right now. and there's really not a lot to do if you're not if you don't identify as a trader then it's really difficult for you to embrace the hyperlquid ecosystem right now but I am a believer and based on the

conversations I've been having I think that changes quickly and the other thing that I've been talking I spoke to some teams and they've said that people are very willing on hyperlquid to try things for that exact reason right so if you do have like a demo or a survey or something on testn that you get very high participation rates. >> Um, so you kind of deal with this weird problem where you do have constraints from the layer or like the chain level, but you have a whole host of users that are extremely excited and ready to click things and not a lot of competition. So, I think it's going to be one of those things where everyone views it as a problem and then one day you're like, "Oh, It's it's like hypervm season and there's a million things happening

and like I'm behind because I wasn't in front, you know. >> Dude, I agree. And that's what happened on ETH and on Soul is you got like the the L1 asset rips, right? And then you get kind of like this wealth effect, this spill down. Um Nest, this Nest exchange, it's kind of uh metadex aerodrome fork thing is flying on hybrid flying. Kinetic looks great as well. So, there's a question from the chat here, but I'm going to add an extra layer to it. Long-term price target for Hyperliquid. Of course, you're going to get asked that. Um, just kind of like, you know, talk us through like what you see as like the bull cases, like the like the moderate case, maybe the bearish case. And then, uh, with that in in mind, like, you know, you know, I

think your Twitter bio says like retired or something. So, uh, what do the hyperlquid whales want to do, right? like are they the type that are going to go and you know put millions into kinetic put millions into ecosystem assets and try to like really create this wealth effect and spill over in this kind of like hyperl liquid season. Do you see it kind of like as like just staying sticky and hype? Where do you see like bull moderate bare case and then how do you see the spillover of the of the capital into the rest of the ecosystem? I um I'm going to start with going on a random tangent as I very much enjoy doing. Sick.

>> I um I have a friend who's a surf instructor and uh and I remember trying to plan advant I was like when are you available? You know, we'll grab lunch and my my girlfriend's going to be in town, that kind of thing. And I said, "When are you free?" And he said, "Oh, high tide." And I said [laughter] >> and I said, "Are you kidding me, bro?" Like >> sick, dude. He was Australian for sure, right? >> Brazilian actually. >> Brazilian. Okay. >> And uh and I said, "Okay, fine." You know, I'll see it high tide. And I think when people talk about price targets, I kind of think of that, you know, like I I am looking at an ideal situation and when to when I want to sell that is so different to what other people would

kind of look about like how they would assess the situation. Like for my personal situation, I would really enjoy selling in like quarter 1, quarter two next year. Um, and there are times like there's been times over this past two months where I've been like, "Oh, this is accelerating at a quicker rate than I kind of even wanted it to because I I want to sell next year, you know, and if this thing just keeps compounding at 10% a day, like I it's got to top at some point." >> Tough life, man. Tough life, [laughter] George.

It's hard out here. >> Making millions a day. Really tough, man. >> Hard on these streets. No, but it I don't know. I I think that I um I had the the thesis in my head when it was trading at, you know, 25 to 32 or whatever it was that it wasn't look it wasn't worth looking at until it was over 100. Um, so that's still kind of in my head, but I really didn't expect it to I didn't expect overall conditions to be this bad, but I didn't expect Hyperlquid to have this much relative strength. You know what I mean? Like relative strength to the upside is one thing, but when Bitcoin's gone down 20% and Hyperliquid's up 40, you just don't really calculate those kind of things

when you look at a trade. Um, and I think a lot of people have got this completely wrong as well because they were directionally right about the market and were like, "Well, Bitcoin looks like It's going to go down." And they probably didn't think that they thought that that was going to give them a better entry at Hyperlquid, right? >> Yeah. >> It just hasn't. And I think you have a lot of frustration from objectively good traders who are directionally correct just getting rinsed because they haven't got their entry. Um >> when when when you when you see that, how do you like what is what is your emotional response, right? Bitcoin down 10%, hype up 40%. Does that concern you or excite you? Do you buy more? Do you like what is what is the response to

that? >> Well, I think it's like that kind of Thanos meme. It's perfectly balanced as as everything should be. It's kind of my only portfolio is Bitcoin and Hyperlquid. So, I'm equally sad about Bitcoin and euphoric about Hyperlquid, you know. So, it's kind of this uh perfect balance achieved. >> But, I don't know. I mean, it obviously concerns me, right? Like, it's it's the classic meme of if Bitcoin's over 80, then quantum isn't a problem. If it's under 70, then, you know, quantum is going to quantum is needs to be the focus and rates need to be cut.

>> Um, so I think it is, I mean, it is concerning. It is just generally concerning how poor a lot of the representation of crypto looks from the outside in as well. Like you have Tom Lee and Sailor just doing really unserious things. Um so it is concerning like you want like I think in the past you look back and you think Bitcoin leading a rally is always healthy and that was what was healthy over the last cycle. >> It was um >> forever man. Not just last cycle, forever.

>> Yeah. Forever. Right. And I guess you don't want to be the kid. You never want to be the guy saying new paradigm. So I'm like >> different, right? >> Yeah. I never ever want to be that guy. Um but maybe just maybe [laughter] >> it's like it never works out for those guys, but maybe it might work for us. Um, >> it's just like I think a a fairer way to look at it is like some assets bottomed faster than others and entered their ne or ended their bare market faster than others maybe, right? Like perhaps this is a signal to the market that the Bitcoin's bare market is ending or in its ending stages. I think that's how I'm looking at it is like this wouldn't be happening if Bitcoin had another year

of bare market left at most. I think end of the summer into Q3 October range finding like that would be that would be like four year cycle to the tea right like October low like that's it. So like my read is less so like ah new paradigm more so like okay Bitcoin's bare market's coming to an end maybe longer maybe lower but of course we're not used to seeing this type of uh price action right >> I would love a world where you have kind of crypto is the greatest casino right I would love a world where the global blowoff top is everyone decides like okay AI all these valuations SpaceX anthropic like they're trading in

trillions and here you go. Well, there's one place left in the world. >> There's one last rotation, one final one final pump, boys. I promise. After this, we're done. >> Yeah, exactly. Like, everyone's rich. Money's getting thinned out. >> Like, this is the only market left that is depressed and and has a discount relative to its potential upside. >> And just like that's the >> that's the dream. If we get anthropic IPO, open AI opo, spaces IPO behind us, it's August, September, Bitcoin's still at like if Bitcoin's in the 50s, for example, right, dude. These the same investors in those trades that are going to get or or those deals that are going to get their liquidity are also esoteric

alternative investors because they wouldn't be up so much if if they weren't. And so they will look at crypto and they'll be like, "Well, I made now that I'm rich. What do I need to do? I need to put my money in sovereign store of value. So, I'm going to go buy a bunch of crypto. I don't know. >> The house of finance, baby. That's the trade. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, well, [snorts] at least that's like the that's the idea. Um, George, tell me if I should buy zero. I don't think we're going to answer that. Great arrested development reference. Flawless. Nice. >> Thank you.

>> Um, George, what about your take on per the DAT? We had Capital Flows on yesterday. He was like gigabullish like gamma squeeze coming call options is the only place to get uh upside on out of the money calls on hype. There's there's no other way to buy options on hype with size strikes are going higher on per up to like 23 24 there's a you know combination of flawless execution of hyperlid becoming the house of finance of the scamma squeeze and this is the most asymmetric way to get exposure to hype. Uh, this our biggest position. We think this thing's going to fly. Could pull a GameStop style squeeze.

I'm in. A lot of our audience is in. Excuse me. What's your take there? >> Look, one thing that has served me well is I I generally like to stay in my lane, you know? I I'm not going to put on a cap and pretend that I I mean, even the words gamma squeeze, like I know. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I kind of get it a little bit, but I'm not going to pretend like I have a full understanding of those terms. I totally feel you, dude. >> And I think there's a it's like that what's the line? It's like um liquor leverage in and ladies is like the only ways you can kind of up a market that only goes up and to the right.

>> And I think that yes, there are legitimate vehicles that people can use to outperform to the upside. And if you are, it can be really beneficial to learn these things, especially if it's kind of a curious way to interact with the market is always a fun way to do it. and you can learn things like even if you lose money. But to me, I would just rather hold my coins, stake my coins, and sell them when I believe that they're at a good price. And I'm I'm a simple man, you know, like I I just uh I would hate to be directionally right and poorer because of the investment vehicle I chose.

>> Yeah. Keeps me up at night. Um when when you're thinking about high tide like I take it that you know it's dependent upon the moon and the stars and the gravity of the world and whatnot and very metaphysical things as is high tide as it relates to the markets and and so if you're thinking through this and sometimes it's you know you don't really know it until it's there I I'd imagine but you know with some of these conflating factors these con these converging you know you have the regulator regatory uh environment, you know, saying that pers are going to become available, you know, become regulated and legal in the US. Um, you have uh, you know, you have the co-founder and CEO of ICE, owner of the

New York Stock Exchange, saying that Hyperl is bigger than the NASDAQ, right? Let me let me, you know, you have HIP 3 volumes continuing to to rise. You have HIP 4 coming online. all of these things starting to compound and converge, you know, h how is it a feeling? Is it like uh h how do you ultimately put these into perspective and say, "Okay, now it's high tide." >> Yeah. I I think that in historically I've been very good at selling near the top. I usually sell early. Um, like I usually would sell earlier than others or I sell early and then buy back and then sell early again, but this time I'm

feeling pretty content in just being very happy. I think there's a general rule in a bull market that you should never sell with the intention of buying back. And I think that I pretty much have that same with the current prices of everything. Like you've got Bitcoin in the 60s down like 40 50% from the top. Um, everything else as well. If you're buying and you're entering at prices that are that are like like if you've got your entries already, then you should just kind of do nothing. You know what I mean? Like if you don't think these are the highest prices that you see ever again, then just doing nothing is going to probably outperform and focus on kind of unit count, right?

You want to focus on how many hype tokens you can get or how much ETH you can acquire. I mean, don't do that. But how much like uh of the tokens you can own. >> And I think for me, it's a feeling. I It really is kind of the I think you over time you see enough euphoria and you see enough depression and you just get the kind of internal understanding of how you react to things. like when things are really depressed, like almost where Bitcoin is now, where it just starts to feel really really like it's over and it's kind of that pit of the stomach, maybe maybe I'm going to go broke kind of thing. That's usually when depression hits the kind of bottoms out.

>> And the same is true with the top. I think you have obvious signs of mass capital being raised super easily. Extraction campaigns are very obvious and easy. You have people who are just saying like really deeply unserious things but believing it. >> And I think the only way to train for that feeling is to >> when you're in the midst of it, really like sit in it. You know what I mean? Like when if it's the worst day ever, 10 10 happens and you're just scrolling the timeline instead of being depressed and losing, you just want to really sit in that feeling and understanding of like this is what this looks like because it

will happen again, right? It's just psychology. And it's the same thing as when like Trumpcoin gets launched and everything's completely euphoric. You want to sit in that feeling and understand how you feel in that situation, how other people are behaving and everything and then you can kind of go, "Oh, you know, I recognized this before. This this feels like that other time." And usually it it kind of works, you know? >> Yeah. You're much more prepared for that feeling again. And you sort of have the self-awareness to react to it with action rather than indifference.

>> Yeah. I mean, you just want to be able to recall your hyperlquid over. See, that's crazy. Like, that is crazy. >> Yep. >> I'm about to pull it up on the screen here. >> We flipped it, ladies and gentlemen. We flipped it. We flipped it and we're going to keep flipping it and it's not going to go back. >> Next is market cap. >> Yeah. Yeah. What is your uh Wait, please finish that take and then we should talk about hype uh hype market cap because people are a little bit confused about that as well. >> Yeah. So, um I was just going to say like you want to clock and it's the same with life in general, right? Outside of trading, like most of trading, most of investing, it's just psychology and controlling your own greed and all those

things. And I think it's just really helpful to be able to to know how you respond to certain things like how you behave in certain situations and how it feels so that you can replicate them or identify them in the future, right? Like if you cannot sleep when you have a a per position live, then you shouldn't do that. Like that's a lesson you can learn in the present for the future. And I think it's the same with recognizing when things are overextended, when things are depressed. Like obviously you have I have a a you know a group of people that I go to as a sounding board.

I go, "Hey, you know, gut check. What where do you think we're at right now?" And those people have a track record and they've served me really well. And I usually will look for confluence between them. Like I think looking for confluence between the smartest people, you know, is always a good >> um stepping stone. Like I always will in times of depression or euphoria, I will kind of nudge some people and go, "Hey, you know, we've been here before. What do you think?" And if they all go, "Actually, yeah, looks looks like we've topped." Then I kind of pull the trigger if it, you know, if I'm part of that confluence. But a lot of it is just figuring out how you respond, you know, like how I feel when everything is absolutely bottomed or up the top is um probably how I'm going to feel next time

as well. >> Well, um George, uh you are a prophet and a scholar, good sir, because we're going to pull the screen up and our price is officially higher than Salana here. So guys, it's official. Hype has flipped soul in price on the rollup stream with swords on. I mean, how I mean, is that not a sign? >> Providence. >> I don't know [laughter] what that sign is, but we need an NFT this moment.

>> If NFTts are back, it's because we're we've got one of the largest hypables on the stream with hype flipping soul and price. I mean, look, not to be a TA guy here, but like >> where does this thing go? [laughter] >> This is just like ridiculous, isn't it? >> Yeah. I mean, the thing is like, >> but I remember for months, right? Like January, February, I was away like spending some time with her friends and and I was like, "Oh, bro, like you got to you got to buy Hyperlquid, right?"

And it just it looked bad, right? that there was a time where I remember one of my friends who I made buy it was like, "Man, I'm so tempted to sell this thing. Like, it's going nowhere." Like, there was a joke that it was up 3% every day, but it stayed at $38 for months or something. >> But I think I really believe the signal from the Coinbase and Circle announcement was the one, right? I think you've had multiple chances to to really go, okay, I objectively take back where my previous position was and where I what I believe to be true is now invalidated and now I'm going to enter.

And I think a lot of people had that like, well, you know, if only this box was ticked, then I would enter. Oh, well, this the risk is too high here. I'm going to wait until that end. And then you've just missed. And I think a lot of people can learn the lesson now of looking back and going, "Oh, actually, you know what? I'm okay with not buying it under 30 because I was uncomfortable about regulatory things and whatever." But in hindsight, the signal at 40 when Coinbase and and USDC signed onto it and the team once again doubled down on on returning value to the token, okay, you know, that's when I should have bought and next time I'm going to be more objective about my bias and I won't make that mistake again.

Like I think >> a lot of people would be better better off learning the lesson than staying mad. But most people will just continue to self-justify. And then you have this horrible moment when you go from cautioning against risk to actively campaigning against a coin as if it's like your enemy. And if you're ever >> you missed it >> cuz you missed it. And when you get to that mindset, you want to you want to see other people lose. Like you want to see like there are people out there right now that want Hyperlid to be hacked because that's like, you know, you get what you deserve, you took too much risk, whatever. And that is just terrible. Like you should never be in the mindset that you want people to lose billions of dollars and the industry to

have another mark on its face. Like you should just never ever be in that mindset. But a lot of people have have got there, right? And I think that shows the the power of kind of it should have been me syndrome. Um and I think people are just much better off looking back at the mistakes they made because objectively something that that's gone up, you know, 150% in two months. Yeah. Okay. You don't have to get that every time, but you can look at that, say, "Okay, that was a legitimate opportunity. I missed out. How did I miss that?" Right. That's that's how you actually move forward instead of just getting stuck in the same mistake over and over again. Um, >> yeah. I mean, you're right on the signal though. Like I mean, just from a little bit of like my journey, I mean, we were

in since the day one launch, >> right? Literally like minute one. Day one. Um, literally like I remember I was I had a dinner in Hong Kong with like a bunch of VCs who were all like if this thing launches, you know, sub$5, sub$4, which is like four billion. We're we're going to be like te whopping5 to 10 million in immediately. There's like four different funds that I was at dinner with just randomly. It was a bunch of like like you know like their analysts and like just like friends like my age and I was like holy I was, you know, aware that this airdrop was happening. I've been trading on the platform. I messed up the terms of service. I didn't sign the terms of service. So, I I didn't get the airdrop.

And I was like, "Oh my god." It was It was just like heartbreaking. >> Soldiers toughest battles. >> I know. [laughter] I know. And so, I was like, "Rob, we got to just we got to get in." And so, that that first day we slammed T-W around like that two and a half $3 mark. And, you know, the rest is history there. And then obviously it's been through two of these 70% pullbacks and it was the same thesis all along. So I had, you know, we we we had sold some, bought back, sold some. Obviously would have been better if you just held the whole time. >> Yeah. Right. >> And you know, I had a nice bag going into this move from the 30 range, 30-ish, you know, like low 30s. And not big enough though, like not the size that we once had. And yeah, that

Coinbase thing came out and I was like, "Okay, I'm way too riskoff on crypto in general right now. This feels like the moment." And pretty much just like turned and almost full ported around that around that level. Combination of purr and hype. Um, and I felt this dying FOMO before. I was like, "No, I've dedicated freaking two years to talking about this thing. I have a decent sized position, but this is not I was stuck in some uranium trade and it was disgusting. It was terrible. I had to take a six-figure loss just to get back in. And and yeah, it was just that feeling inside of like no, like this is so obvious right now.

>> And so anyway, not to like, you know, get all euphoric, but it's definitely definitely hard to like take that loss to get back into something that you know is going to happen and that you have like this deep level of conviction in. And I mean, look, today we're at the highest fees in the last 90 days by a long shot with yesterday being the second highest. >> Yeah. I mean, what a coin, man. What a good coin. [laughter] >> And the thing that just gets us going is this. >> Pretty good coin. >> This is just the most exciting thing. Get this up.

>> Yeah, that and the percentage of um open interest for for it versus like other centralized exchanges. I really like that as well cuz I think that also reached an alltime high versus Binance or whatever. >> Um, >> but I mean it look it's it's up and to the right and it's one of those few times where you go oh okay kind of makes sense why it's going up a lot right like even in wider market conditions you go oh okay well there's 20 million people like $20 million getting twapped into it and then you have um the buyback's $4 million a day. It's got a pretty kind of low float. Um, you know, like the FTV is the market cap circulating, the holders that are holding big bags. Like there's

not that many people wanting to sell. Like people like me, I think after the airrop, you have this unique uh unique psychological setup where more people are afraid to sell too soon than to sell too late. Um, which is really important for kind of locking up supply. You also have long unstaking times like obviously kinetics changing that but in general people are locked up for two weeks no well not two weeks but a week and a half um and I think yeah you just have a really rare situation where you go I don't want to sell this thing too early again right like you you said the same me as well I I actually wanted to log I basically logged off for 2025 so I I like got my airdrop sold it too soon obviously but mostly because I was just

like it I want to log off for a while um and then I came back and bought and I have less than what I got from the airdrop, right? But you have to you have to look yourself in the mirror. You have to slap yourself and you go, "Okay, well, make a good make good out of a bad situation." Like the yesterday's price is not today's price and like I I should just forget about that, you know? Um, so you have a lot of people who are like that. A lot of people have sold too soon. They've they didn't enjoy it and now they're like, "Well, I'm not going to do that again." And you kind of see the result, right? you have a lot of demand to buy and you have not that much demand to sell.

>> George, um, >> I I got one one more for you with respect to the Coinbase Circle announcement obviously and and we covered the entire USDH stable coin debacle. That whole competition uh, was really entertaining to watch. >> That was also a big moment, right Rob? Like that was a clear tell as to like the power of the ecosystem, >> right? to pull in all those names. This request for proposal got interest and attention with it signified, you know, the potential and also the magnitude. >> I'm curious, maybe you could just unpack the the the magnitude of the Coinbase announcement, why, you know, you you find it so important for the strength of the ecosystem and and what you think it

signals about the potential moving forward. >> Yeah, I think it was a signal, right? I think it was a really important moment to a it it confirmed that when it when the team is ne negotiating with big things that impact the ecosystem and impact the direction of the token, they absolutely have the the sole consideration of what is best for the token, what is best for the holders, what is best for this thing to continue improving. Um and you have this other sis the other side which which I think was really really underscored with this agreement is how much leverage they have you know like people are really really interested in getting involved with

Hyperl. Hyperlquid is the one darling shining light of the industry right now. And the many many teams who started as a DeFi protocol then went to NFTTS then did meme coins and you know they they tried to pivot and keep up with what was interesting and were always behind. Everyone's building hyper hyperlquid builder codes now right like that is the that is the thing that people are going okay this is where the money is to be made right now. this is where the capital is flowing and everyone's scrambling to try and be a part of it, right? Like I spoke to a team earlier today that was saying that they're pi pivoting from like the Bitcoin ecosystem to hyperlquid. Like I think you see that more and more where people look themselves in the mirror and go, "Hey,

you know, we were wrong or we tried over here, didn't work, and this is where the opportunity is, you know, and I just think that continues." And for me, the the Circle and the Coinbase announcement was, okay, these Coinbase and Circle were so excited about the future of Hyperlid that they're willing to give up pretty much all the money that they're going to make from being out there. You know what I mean? Like, you don't do business deals in crypto where you just go, "Okay, you know, in exchange for us letting you use our protocol, you give us all your money." You know, that that's just crazy. And it also was extremely different terms than what every other protocol has negotiated. You

know, like if anything, USDC is the one that doesn't give incentives. You have a lot of stable coins in in the Salana ecosystem. You know, PayPal has their USD like you have a lot of different um stable coins that have tried to have to to build market share and they give away grants. They give away, you know, these these promotions and things like that, but USDC doesn't. They don't they don't offer their revenues and they don't ever offer revenues maybe in backdoor deals or whatever but not that just openly flow to a token and attract trackable and they also had to take a $20 million position in Hyperlid to even get the opportunity to give away their revenue.

Like that is in an insane deal from their side of things that they only would have signed if they really really believed in the future. And as the most regulated companies in the US who spend all of their money and time in the White House trying to figure out how to push through legislation and be on the right side of things, that's a massive risk for them to take unless they believed that the future was aligned and >> Hyperlid was it, you know, like I think that was just they've done more due diligence than I ever could have possibly. So that really ticked off the box for me.

>> Yeah. And then you know the one thing that you didn't mention was at the what was it like interest rates are like 3.75% or 4.25% 25% something right now on T bills. Um that's like $140 to $50 million a year of additional revenue to the assistance fund which is also like >> it's mental >> mental and that hasn't even hit yet I don't believe. >> No no no it hasn't it hasn't started flowing yet. And that like >> those are just that's mental right like that is the those are the things that are beginning to be priced in but they really weren't right. I remember that announcement came on and it was like, "Oh, okay. There's $150 million worth of buy pressure coming and the price is the

same as it was 2 days ago. What is going on?" >> It it went down on the news at first. Like it it took a whole day or something for like the market to wake up a bit. I got clowned on actually because I remember um I posted it pulled back like I don't know 8% or something to 41 and I was like oh you know I think this is a good entry if you've been sidelined like it's clear. I did a whole thing about it and um and then I was like yeah it looks good. it went back up and then someone the next day after it went down like 5% hit me with the like update question mark because it like went down >> and I was like man come on and then obviously you [laughter] know 12 hours later it's up and it just and since that

it's up you knowund 100% basically >> um but yeah it's classic right like you have you should buy I think it's probably up this time next year and people are two hours later like update [laughter] >> yeah uh last thing for you George from BNB. This from Marvin. BNB BNB has great tokconomics. When will it pump? I mean, kind of a it already had its pump, you know. I don't know. What's your take here? >> I think people really like cycleto cycle dialing coins and B&B and Salana to me had those. they were the dialing and they were the one that attracted a lot of capital and they had a big upside narrative and they were able to do

amazing things. Um, I personally don't see that upside there for BMBB. Like I think if you were to delete other coins and you only had one coin to long, then I think that there will be upside there and there'll probably be the answer is likely when the rest of the market turns around that probably pumps as well. Um but I just can't see like you want to invest in things that have a dream, right? You want to invest in the house of all finance that can consume the NASDAQ and have a fully functioning L1 out of alpha into beta and can you know has a TAM of trillions like you want to you want to have the dream um as 7% of

Binance can flip Salana all these things you don't want to buy something that has has already kind of achieved most of the things it it wants to do um because I I mean I don't know anyone one who uses BNB. I don't know anyone who's like actively on Binance chain doing things like it had its season of of hot ball of money on meme coins and stuff. Um I think if anything there might be like kind of a cope catchup trade at some point, but it's not on my radar. >> Yeah, George, thanks for your time, man.

Um I mean this thing this thing looks ready to go again. So control your control your euphoria. I hear you also on just you know Q1 next year would be a nice place to uh you know take some off the table here but we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. I I know this is not a shortterm thing for us or any of us but we'll see what happens. Thanks for your time. >> Thanks so much for having me guys. I appreciate it. >> Appreciate it. George >> What do we think guys? switch half my purr to be hype. Nice. Nice. Yeah. I mean, I think again there's a good point

there about like you don't want to be right on a position and be wrong on the method of allocating. Both good tbh. I agree. Um yeah, I mean we can we can we can ruminate around hype or purr or whatever it is for the longest, but at the end of the day, I mean there's we're they both look amazing right now. Um, the only mistake that I've made is selling hype. That's that's how I feel. Whenever I sell, I always feel like I it's a mistake. >> That's just like it's it's consistently been like that since the inception. So, >> uh, yeah. I mean, that's true for hype and very few others.

>> Yeah. No, I mean, I I hear you. Um, all right, guys. Let's get back into it. We got Bitwise CIO Matt Hugan calling crypto a contrarian bet. Um, so I actually had drinks with Matt the other day and we both kind of agreed that the next couple months might be a little bit slow, you know, for majors. He's allocated into hype. Obviously, uh, their ETF was one of the most successful ETFs ever, if not one of the most um by by trading volume in the first week. But I think I mean Rob for the same reasons that we called that Alice Krueger kind of said that this industry is failing I

think this is the same take. It's why it's a contrarian bet. >> Yeah. you know, um there's like a crowd of people out there that they pay attention to Bitcoin and maybe ETH and maybe Salana and now maybe they're hearing about this funny weird strange thing called Hyperlquid and seeing some of the Wall Street Journal articles and they don't really think about and then they consider you know the rest of after Bitcoin ETH soul and then you know maybe they're hearing about hype everything else is the 99% of crypto is dead, not coming back. You know, all all of that I think is there's a group out there that

thinks that way and I can understand how anything else rising from that category that they consider dead, anything that's not Bitcoin eats soul, you know, something rising from that category is contrarian. And so that's I think part of why Hyperlid has caught some people from that group off sides and by surprise. And I could see how there's more coming from that category that would also be contrarian and catch those people by surprise. But there has to be a fundamental thesis reason as to why. Maybe Hyperlid is one of the only ones, but you know, we're we know because we're here there's others that are kind of coming up the rear.

>> Yep. >> To see if they have as much, you know, penetration power into that group of uh, you know, some of these more institutional allocators. remains to be seen, but I think Hyperlid, you know, kind of bursting on the scene is [snorts] uh, you know, going to potentially open a a more of a path for others to follow behind it. >> Yeah, Purr looks amazing, guys. It looks ready to It looks ready to blow as well. Wow. Um, I really took George's message about leverage to heart, which is why I then longed ZRO with 4x my net worth.

>> [laughter] >> stop below 1.16. [gasps] >> Wow. >> Wishing you the best. Um I see roll up number one hype podcaster now. Kudos Andy Robbie. It's been like that for a while. I feel like I mean these guys have uh we we've been bullish for a while. I think a lot of podcasts like missed hype in a way. Um >> why is Arthur buying WLD? What is the story behind it? It's because Sam Alman, the founder of OpenAI, is also the co-founder of Worldscoin. I I I don't think there's anything greater than that. I think there's three narratives and three narratives only right now. And it's privacy, AI, and revenue. And Hyperlid has revenue, and uh Zcash has

privacy, and Near and Venice and Worldcoin have AI. I I think that's it. anything, you know, anything with a strong and people are going to try to tie themselves to those categories. But, you know, there's really only few that have been like that from the start. You know, near Venice, Worldcoin have been AI related or AI at their core for their entire history. So >> I I and then and then you have the blockchain not Bitcoin not token you know camp but obviously as far as what you get exposure to you know privacy revenue and AI are are the things with the most attention and >> those things are in an attention bull

market. >> Yeah definitely purpose is kind of like the revenue category. Uh Hypermeat has been exclusively covering hyperl since March 2025. That is an amazing name of a show. Hypermeat. Um, do you guys ever have the team from Fogo on the rollup? I don't think so. >> Don't believe so. This last question from Jingo. What do you think about Nillian? Believe it's a uh good idea ventures portfolio company, which is the rollup venture studio. Blind compute kind of straddles both privacy and AI. Andy, what do you think about million >> token is uh just been destroyed. So, um I mean yeah, I mean it's at the lows.

it. Yeah, it's I don't know. >> I believe they had a change in their CEO. >> Yeah, I I don't think we've sold any. So, >> it had a massive pump. >> Yeah, we haven't sold any, man. About a month ago, >> but we don't hold We're not like looking to buy that thing right now. I I wouldn't say. Uh I'd love to come on to chat HL. Yeah, dude. Super down. Uh hit us up. What do you guys think of ICP long-term? David, man, I'm sorry. I don't know if you're going to like my opinion. That thing launched at $250 billion market cap in uh 2021, which is like ETH market cap right now or like a little bit more than ETH market cap right now. And uh yeah, it is it is uh

down only. I I I don't I don't I don't I don't think it's that interesting as an investment. Again, like I think there's a couple really really strong assets right now. I think the trend is your friend in these things and I don't really see Yeah, I don't really see the the need to try to go pick winners off of a long long bare market and try to like try to like be a hero here. So, I'm not trying to be a hero buying all these random things off the floor. I'm trying to just be selective and pick what pick what's working. So, that's where I'm at.

I'm just a chat on the internet, but I sold ICP when I became aware of the hyperinflation. its own its subject own yeah I again these types of things you don't really want to see or have to pay attention to and so that is my that is my ICP take let's move on into this Bitfinex uh video from Paulo um I guess there's I guess Bitfinex removed trading fees entirely and Paulo is the owner of Bitfinex so Tether owns Bitfinex haven't really heard much from these guys since they had their LEO token that flew Um, >> remember the LEO Leo token was because Bitfinex got hacked and they used that token to patch like basically repay user

funds. Uh, but >> there's still lots of bag holders of ICP because of Bit Boy. Wow. And the Wild Times Tao VBV near good alternatives. >> Oh, calling out Tao. What is Tao doing these days? Obviously had the rally but got >> Yeah, I think that >> Templar subnet situation really took the wind out of Tao's sales unfortunately. Yeah. Otherwise, I could have seen it benefiting quite a bit from this this AI rally. >> Is it moving at all? >> No, not really. >> Damn, it's down. >> Yeah, >> a lot. Yesterday was a ugly day for TA.

Yeah. I mean, even that one, guys, like I don't know. I'm not I mean, we had these guys come on the show a couple couple months back and they were super bullish and we were excited about it and then >> Templar. >> Yeah, Templar happened and it kind of just changed the whole thesis. >> That entire ecosystem just had a drag. It was like it was like TA's 1010 when Templar left. >> All right, let's play this video from Palo. Let's see what he's talking about here. >> We did some calculations on our side. We saw that the exchange would remain extremely profitable and you know from once I mean if you have an exchange, it was never the case. We never uh had uh you know negative fees for market makers. But um if um if you still if you need to pay some market makers and then

you have to charge the retails you have anyway net to zero. So we calculated that in our case we were not um subsidizing market makers. We were not charging high fees to to retail and uh in the end fees like trading fees were were negligible in the grand scheme of fees of of Bitfinex profitability and so we removed them the the volume uh went up actually we acquired so much more user base and our peer-to-peer lending market grew. It's like several several billions in the peer-to-peer uh lending market and so the efficiency of the system just just grew incredibly well.

Um so was the right decision? I believe that many changes will follow our path in the future. >> Yeah, Bitfinex huge backers behind stable. Yep. Totally forgot about them. Stack team. Yeah, I mean I mean I also have not used them or really seen I mean they're like their claim to fame was like 2017 to 2020 era. Um they had a huge huge huge run and they were up there. Paulo and Tether I think basically acquired them. Um and yeah that stable token has been flying.

>> Really? >> Yeah. Like why is why is Plasma you know not getting any bid but stable just up and to the right since launch? Like literally up and to the right. >> Oh wow. >> Launched at around a bill trading at four bill now. >> Like it's just crazy. >> Yeah. And Plasma's not doing much there. >> No, Plasma's just down. >> It's up 10% today. Oh, yeah. But it's down from where it launched. Bad 10. >> Remember when that thing was above uh above a buck pre-market?

>> Yeah. Stable up, baby. I think new types. Yeah, he likes the show. I think he's in he's in stable clearly. [laughter] >> That's funny. Yeah, >> damn. People are tweeting about the Zcash um vulnerability like it's actual actual real. Actually real. Not great. I didn't think it was real. >> Infinity Hedge put out something about it. >> Really? >> Yeah. I mean, it's holding the line. Zcash got 600 bucks pretty much. >> Oh my gosh. The hype to you up right now is insane. I'm going to put my screen.

>> Wow. >> Yeah. Infinity Hedge Zcash network down. have not produced any blocks in the past 4 hours according to multiple block explorers. >> Yikes. >> Uh and then >> but I don't think that was real. I think that was I I don't think they had their sources right. >> Couple update I mean they made a couple updates uh to that original post, but uh the update was that it was experiencing degraded processing. It's expected to remain impacted for the next few hours. >> Well, when when was that post at? 5:30 a.m.

>> I think it's fixed up all now. Yeah. >> What's the T- looking like? >> Oh my gosh. 18 million in the next 24 hours. 2 million in the next hour. >> Wow. >> Wow. [laughter] Insane. Insane. >> You know, uh, so Andy, I'm about to I'm about to, you know, hop out of here in a couple minutes because I got to catch this flight. We're going to be live from the Connecticut Digital Forum with a bunch of hedge funds and asset managers.

Um, I'm pretty excited to hear what they have to say because they've got cash. Uh, this is a different crowd than we typically have on the show. And look, what are they thinking? I mean, this is kind of the crowd that I think, you know, Matt Hugan and Bitwise, you know, talking to that's who they're talking to and they call crypto contrarian bet. What are they looking at? What do they have on their radar? like who are they watching because you know and how aware are they of hyperlquid believe they're probably you know they're probably aware of it are they allocated are they sidelined you know what is their >> yeah or any of these things right are they just looking at Bitcoin >> right so guys tomorrow we're going to go

live earlier than usual um also we have a new upgrade to the show look and feel that you guys will see tomorrow um but we're going to be live around like 9 9 like like 10:00 a.m. Eastern and we're going to be going from a conference in um Connecticut and it's really like a hedge fund oriented conference AI hedge funds this type and um yeah it's going to be it's going to be very very very like trady kind of vibe. So should be interesting to kind of run the usual programming from there and you know have that be like this like the setup. So uh last thing I'll leave you with uh

general general reason for thinking alts can do well even with majors looking terrible is that I just don't think people own them anymore. I think a lot of capitulation has happened with altcoins over the past three years. People rightfully so chase stocks and have been up only. Now, there's only a few protocols with real tech and decent narratives behind them, but they're still severely underowned by everyone. Um, man okay so >> I mean, >> we're seeing things hold up. >> Bitcoin is just crashing more, man. Just can't even find its way above 60K.

>> Nope. >> Not not not great, guys. Not great. Guys, we've got the co-founder of Ore. I'm gonna take this one solo. Rob's heading to the airport. >> Have a good show. >> Or is a leading privacy project on Salana. Uh Hard Hat is the founder or one of the co-founders and we're going to have him on talking about what is going on with their privacy project. It is a pretty low market cap asset. Um and pull it up. So, or it's had a hell of a run.

Down quite a bit today, but it has it's had a hell of a run since year to date. Let's see. Um, yeah, it's it's done extremely well. It's done extremely well. It's done extremely well. So, we're going to get hard hat up. Hard hat is in. Welcome to the show, Hard Hat. Chad, the founder of Ore, a pseudonymous founder, lead developer, and foreman of ore, created Ore in early 2024 during a Salana hackathon as a Bitcoin style proofof work mining experiment. What began as a viral project has become a focused ecosystem centered on fair launched electronic cash, privacy, immutability, and quantum resistance as a long-term

store of value. Hard hat, welcome to the show. Hey guys, how's it doing? >> Going well, man. Um, congrats on the recent success. You guys have been doing amazing work. Uh, it's been looking, you know, just watching from the sidelines almost has just been, it's been great to see. And man, we wanted to bring you up because it feels like this is the kind of combination confluence of privacy, quantum all coming together. maybe just a bit about your background, a bit about what Ore is and um yeah, let's get into it Ben.

>> Sure. Yeah. Uh I appreciate it. It's definitely been a lot of ups and downs, but you know, we really focus on uh every day making sure the community grows, you know, at least by one person. So, I appreciate having me on and uh you know, letting me share our story here. Um yeah, I mean so I guess right off the bat I was listening to uh some of the the podcast uh you know for a few minutes before hopping on and uh I I kind of agree with with you guys about the you know there being three main narratives right now with the privacy revenue and and AI and uh so I guess I should say you know if you take away nothing else from this chat you should probably take away these two things which is that you know or uh has the

largest privacy pool on Salana at the moment larger than soul larger than USDC and the the York community has really you know I think gone to the next level to to try to you know increase the anonymity set of that privacy pool as as much as possible um and make it sort of the the de facto uh sort of you know privacy option if you're trying to move volume uh privately on chain and uh and then secondly you know the protocol kind of consistently ranks like in the top 10 daily you know revenue and 100% of that revenue goes back into token buybacks and so I I think those two things you know probably along with a number of others but you know those are probably the two headliners that uh is why or has been uh attracting a little bit of

attention recently uh that and just you know it's like two years of ups and downs and uh and shared trauma so you know everyone's trying to share the story. [laughter] Yeah, man. I mean, okay. So, talk to us about how ore makes money, how how are you guys able to fund these buybacks and then how does that like what is the program like what is the level of the programmatic nature of the buybacks? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so fundamentally uh I I guess even before getting into the revenues like the idea for or was uh to create this kind of like alt so you know bitcoin type native asset to Salana. Uh, and the way we got there was a little roundabout. Like I I had spent quite a lot of time digging into um Bitcoin like two years ago. And I was a little

disillusioned and frustrated primarily with the fact there there wasn't a whole lot of Bitcoin DeFi available and and also just that you know like 99% of Bitcoin transactions that they they don't get processed and settled by the network that Satoshi wrote about and built. They they get processed on Binance and Coinbase and Robin Hood and and these exchanges. And it just felt like I don't know uh the the coin was more dependent on the financial institutions that Satoshi wrote about in the white paper and you know wanted to replace than than ever before. Uh and I thought at the time like okay well the way to solve this is well let's bridge Bitcoin to Salana and and try to bridge as much of it as possible. Uh and the more I dug into that I just kind of couldn't buy into the idea that that was

long-term like the right architecture. And uh for a few reasons that you know probably aren't worth getting into, but the idea occurred to me like well Bitcoin is just this computer program essentially and we could uh likely rewrite that as a smart contract on Salana and and freeze it and and that would get us quote unquote Bitcoin on Salana and and [clears throat] so it would uh obviously be a different token like different social network and and that's you know all the trade-offs that come with that. But those core kind of technical properties of like uh this fixed supply asset with a a programmatic issuance curve and and you have some sort of proofof work mining mechanism.

um you know it would would be interesting to see how that performs on a chain like Salana uh where you have fast transactions and you can scale and it's performant and you have DeFi and you can sort of scale self- custody uh and and so that's where the idea came from and what ultimately um you know the V1 version was designed to be uh and and has gone through a lot of iterations since then. I I think a lot of the the mining mechanics, the way we actually do issuance are is very different today than it it it was then. Uh and that's those redesigns were uh you know largely driven by a lot of learnings from running that that proof of work system uh and and kind of gets into the revenue story a bit. But uh yeah, I just sort of

wanted to lay the groundwork because I'm sure a lot of viewers uh >> aren't familiar with the mission and vision. >> Yeah. Um, I'm gonna pull up your site because there's a lot going on here and I'm not really sure what's going on here. Um, so, uh, yeah, if if you look there, you can see the site, um, there. And there's boxes and numbers and mother loads and times remaining and there's 8 seconds and I feel like I need to do something. What's going on here?

>> Yeah. Uh so this is what we call grid mining and uh the way we we designed this was you know or was proof of work like real true proof of work for about a year and a half uh on the initial issuance curve and um the problem we kept running into with proof of work was like twofold. One is that the emissions uh were were just highly concentrated to like basically two two parties that had way more hash power than anyone else. Um and and so we we weren't seeing this sort of like distribution that we we wanted to see for the token where the original idea was you know anyone should be able to mine from any device like on a phone or a laptop and and participate uh and uh yeah so we we wanted to make

it as user friendly as possible but you know there's just like a very asymmetric uh distribution of resources when it comes to like real POW uh proof of work and and so that wasn't working and there was also this real value leak where uh you know the money that miners spend on electricity, they they buy electricity with fiat and then they earn revenue in crypto. And so uh naturally the the miners have to sell uh their their crypto back to fiat. And so there's this kind of like fundamental value leak in all proofof work systems even the proof of useful work systems frankly where like the the the value that the miners are spending on sort of electricity to

generate those hashes or generate those proofs uh comes out to the value of the token. And so for what we were trying to do that you know the grander vision for ore that just kind of seemed like a fundamental flaw and uh we all kind of took a step back as a community and we're like well how do we redesign this emissions curve and we ended up coming up with this grid system uh and the basic premise here is that you know even with POW mining like every hash is a chance you know at at winning the block >> and so there's a little bit of a game of chance here at play and uh and So there's a bunch of different ways you could redesign that game of chance that try to plug that value leak such that you know the value that miners are

spending on their chances of of earning the token actually goes back into the value of the token as opposed to leaking out of it. >> Okay. >> So that's kind of the concept and and what's happening on the grid here is just you have a 5x5 grid. Uh there's one minute rounds. You can think of them like you know one minute blocks in in the Bitcoin world. And uh and miners are deploying soul across the grid to essentially prospect for ore. >> And then there's a a random number system boom >> that that sort of distributes uh or rewards to the miners kind of proportional to how much soul they deployed. And there's some obvious gamification aspects there with like the mother lode >> uh with you know big payouts and stuff.

Um but essentially it's you know meant to be a more fun and you know user friendly accessible way to get into crypto mining. Uh and yeah, people have been having a lot of fun with it and and the revenue ultimately for the the the token is driven by a fee that the protocol takes uh on that. >> Got it. Okay. And then on the shield component, you can send your tokens privately to another wallet. And this is just the this is okay. So you can so you can do private transactions across all these assets.

>> Yes. Yeah. We partnered with uh a team called Privacy Cache who uh yeah to my knowledge is like the largest uh and most active shield pools on Salada. >> Uh and yeah, we partnered with them. We set up two privacy pools. One for ore and then one for a token we called store which is a liquid staking token uh around stakeor. >> And uh the staked ore pool is the the largest on Salana uh that I'm aware of. And uh essentially you're able to you know stake your ore, earn yield off of that and then uh a lot of users uh then sort of re deploy that ore into the shield pool so that you can continue to earn yield even uh while contributing to

the anonymity set and then what so so the quantum resistant nature is in the the proofof work algorithm. What how is this quantum resistant? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, it's not the quantum resistance is not in the mining system. This was like, uh, a feature we just released, uh, a few days ago. Um, mainly actually, it's more of a proof of concept than anything there. There's definitely a lot more we want to do in terms of the UI and and and making it more accessible. Um, but the the goal really was just to drive more discussion on Salana around quantum resistance. Uh and so this was building on some work

that uh another developer in the Sono ecosystem Dean Little um had done to uh I mean essentially what what he built was a two of two multisig where one of the keys is quantum resistant, right? Right. And so the idea is that like you can put your tokens in that multisig and even if your regular Salana key pair the the elliptic curve key pair is compromised uh you still have another key pair that is quantum resistant and uh you know is unlikely to be and um that's kind of the general premise of the the product we had launched. It's right now just a a very simple kind of command line based tool not you know super user friendly um but we we felt

the need to do it because I don't know or has always been uh trying to push Salana forward and push the UX forward and the security forward and uh and this just seemed like the right natural thing to do uh to continue the discussion. And then on the token and revenue kind of buyback side and things, what are the what are the revenues number what are the revenue numbers look like and what is the estimated like daily or weekly buybacks? >> Yeah. Uh if you go to that explore tab at the the top of the page that'll uh there's a table there that links to all of the buyback transactions.

>> And so um >> Mother, >> you can see the >> if you scroll down >> Oh, buybacks. Here we go. Yeah. >> Oh, wow. So, you're buying backs like you're buying back every hour, multiple times an hour >> right now. Yeah. Yeah. Block Works has like the aggregate data. Um, and it fluctuates day by day, I should say, like it depends on kind of how much uh soul miners are deploying into the mines uh because that, you know, influences the amount of fees that the protocol is taking and and then the amount of soul that gets deployed to the buyback system. Um, >> but I think we just crossed uh, if I'm right, it's like 50 million total

buyback volume >> um, since launching this this new grid mining system last August. >> Wow. >> So, uh, that'd be the total over the last Yeah. like eight months or so. >> And it's just 100% programmatically to the token. No, no, no funny games. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's insane. Yeah, I mean that's that's where we're at as an industry. I mean this is it. You you mean we're showing a screen of revenue and buybacks on the screen talking about privacy and quantum. You guys are like hitting like all three of these kind of core topics at once. Um yeah, man. I mean, what comes next? Like like I mean I was just looking at the token. It's at like $100. I don't

exactly know what the market cap is. Um but what what what should we be excited about for you know what's next? Marcap's at 45 million FTV and full and um circulating is one to one. Um what is there to be excited about coming up? >> Yeah, I mean uh the biggest things we we're working on right now are uh what we call a V4 system. So this current grid mining thing is uh what the community will understand to be V3. and the the V4 will make this a little bit more accessible um and sort of reduce the chances that that people get burned.

Uh we we we we we find we're trying to basically plug all the holes, you know, in the onboarding funnel and [laughter] we we find that like users a lot of users get caught up in in the mechanics of of the grid and the game and and you know run into too many questions there that they're not able to to see the the larger kind of you know non-fiat vision. And uh and so we want to plug those holes. And uh and so that's what our kind of our main development focuses on right now is simplifying that grid mining game.

>> And so you guys made $50 million since inception in revenue, bought it entirely back in the token in less than a year, and you're trading at $45 million market cap. [laughter] >> Yeah. [snorts] >> What's going on here? Am I missing something? >> Well, I mean, all the data is on chain. Um, yeah, >> dude. What am I missing? What is the market missing? >> Yeah, you have to ask the miners. I think the miners have a lot of like, you know, the or community has a lot of ideas there. Um, there is a big thesis that, uh, oh, I'm going to blank on the name. Uh, one of our community members put out just yesterday.

>> You've got a ton of them in the chat right now. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> they might be able. the market's missing here. You know, Austin Austin uh from Relayer Capital has been early to a lot of these tokens that people are getting excited about now and he's he's been telling me about this a ton and I just like this just makes this is just by the numbers I don't know what we're missing. Like is the like what is the what is the market you're going after? Like what is the what is the you know like what is the comparable or what is like the market that you're trying to tackle essentially?

>> Yeah. I mean, we we've been talking about this like alt so idea for probably two years now. And I I remember two years ago getting kind of laughed at on the timeline because I suggested that you know, within a decade there would be a coin larger than Bitcoin. And uh you know, in my mind that that also means it could be a stable coin. Like I'm I'm very convinced that that within five years we're going to have you know, five coins larger than Bitcoin by market cap and they're all going to be stable coins. Um but but longer term I think like once you get that stable coin liquidity on chain uh then right all your sort of nonfiat currency non-fiat store of values can actually compete on like the same playing field and that's

where things get kind of interesting from the like cipher punk sort of sovereign individual uh you know cry crypto origins perspective is that like you really need these these assets the the non-fi currencies and the fiat currencies to be able to compete on a level playing field and and on crypto rails and and right now they're just not and and so um I don't know the the grander vision here was to try to like return to crypto roots >> and and scale self- custody and create an asset that like we were excited by and a lot of the or community consists of a ton of like Bitcoin OGs that um you know were around like back in the the Bitcoin forum days and uh we all kind of

like I don't know in general I think the the or story is like we all we all took a step back and we're kind of like if we could redesign this token this protocol this asset like from scratch without dependencies kind of you know green field development like blank whiteboard how would we design it and uh or is kind of the outcome of of that discussion. So yeah. >> Wow. And you guys decided to throw a little chat feature on here just for the memes huh? >> Yeah. Yeah, the community in there.

>> It's pretty funny. >> Yeah, the community in there is uh is pretty fun. It's just, you know, social like these these store value all of them, whether they're gold, Zcash, Bitcoin to me, they're they're a social network, right? They're like >> kind of a belief system and every >> extra person that buys into that belief system adds, you know, some marginal value to to the other holders. And uh and so we we try where we can to grow that social network. >> Well, hard hat, I mean, market's missing something here, man. This is uh this is screaming raging by to me. So, um thank you for your time. Thank you for building this and showing me around. I really appreciate it and I really just wanted to get this done because I felt

like this was something that our community would appreciate. And we've been just hammering on revenue. we've been hammering on um on just kind of like seeing things from a very pure fundamental perspective and trying to think about the market from a a fundamentals perspective like more than ever. Um so this is this is awesome. I mean we got people in the chat saying that that the market is sideline. This thing's going above a thousand. Miners chat is awesome. Orheads please post the CA. Marvin says Marvin's a one of our lovely lovely community members here.

Um, AOBcon, what happens to the soul deployed on a losing block? I think that's a question for you, Hardat, as we close out here. >> Yeah, right now a portion of that gets collected by the the protocol as the fee and then the other portion of it gets paid out to the miners in that winning square. Uh, some of those mechanics are going to change in the V4. Uh, so so that it, you know, your your downside loss won't be as bad. Um cuz yeah, we we want to reduce cases where where miners are losing everything. But uh but right now that that's kind of what happens in the current V3 system.

>> Got it. >> Hard hat. Thanks for your time, man. Really appreciate it. Looking forward to seeing this thing grow. >> Yeah, I appreciate you having me on. >> Cheers, buddy. Best of luck. [cheering] >> I mean, guys, I mean guys, like what what what is the market missing there? I mean, 50 mil revenue in 10 months, $45 million market cap, doing things all along privacy and quantum. I mean, the only thing that I think is like maybe people are like not excited because it's on Salana. I don't know. But it's I don't know like what are we missing? So, yeah. I mean, what a show today, guys. I mean, wow. George comes on and just bull post hype to the moon.

Things about to break 74. Purr looks fantastic. Bitcoin can just please hold above 60K for or 66K just for like a couple of hours, please. And we're going to get party time again. Um, I mean, we talked about I mean, just wow. Just wow. Guys in the chat, thank you for being here. It's been fun. As always, you are watching the rollup live from the Empire State Building. Absolutely beautiful day today. I mean, it is sunny. You got Jersey down there, got Brooklyn down there. We're stay We are in the 77th floor of the Empire State Building. Um, we'll be live again. As I said, tomorrow we're going to Connecticut. So, we had an early day tomorrow. We'll be streaming about 10:00 a.m. till about 4

and we're going to be interviewing for the most part hedge funds, AI investors, robotics leagues, um, kind of like larger scale different types of folks from funds, investment managers, and more. So, that'll be all day tomorrow. Um, IB says to the moon or Zclash of Blessing. Rocky, Rocky, great show. Thank you, man. See you tomorrow bright and early as well. Ladies and gentlemen, you are watching the rollup live from the tokenization tower, the Nest broadcasting live from the financial capital of the world. We love y'all. Same place, same not the same time.

Tomorrow, 10:00 a.m. we'll be live from Stanford, Connecticut on the ground at the University of Connecticut campus with a ton ton of hedge funds and owners. As always, guys, let's go Knicks. Game one, baby. Game one tonight. [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

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