🚨LIVE: SpaceX IPO Wiped $2T Already? What's Next? Updated ZEC Thesis, NEAR x HYPE, Chainlink & Relay

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[music] We'll see you around the timeline. [music] Feels good to be back. >> I think The Rollup [music] is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts [music] at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding into my library potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at Dev [music] Connect day one here from space. >> [music] [music]

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the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> So bullish. It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] Heat.

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[music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> Yes, sir. We're live. It's going to be [cheering] back. >> Boys are back. >> New York City. >> Go Knicks. >> Nick's game for tonight. [cheering] >> Burn down. >> Yeah, it's pretty nuts. >> We're going to be live from the bar. 6:45 p.m. Waiting for the 8:30 p.m.

game. >> Man, go. >> So, uh, Nicks are up. Market's down. [cheering] I got my uh my uh male Bridges poster here for you guys. Let me show you guys. >> Yeah, let's see what's going on here. We're in the studio. It's ETH comp uh Anthem saying take profit is zero on ETH. Well, you know what? >> Let's go Knicks. >> [ __ ] your take profit. >> Let's go Knicks. Let's go Knicks. >> Let's go M Bridges. >> Game four, >> boys are on. Let's get it. >> Let's make it happen. Um guys, welcome back to the rollup. You're watching here live from the tokenization tower.

>> The tokenization tower. The nest. >> We're here. >> The financial capital of the world. Today is Wednesday, June 10th. It is 12:44 p.m. Eastern time. Our bags are down. SpaceX IPO is coming on Friday. Liquidity suck. Vampire attack on everything. I don't know. I don't know if we're buying SpaceX IPO. I'm probably not buying it. I don't think I'm I don't think my investment plan is changing based on SpaceX IPO. I think uh SpaceX has an opportunity to do well given that it's first. Um I think uh there was almost like the you can almost look at like the Monad Mega ETH like one token launch after another as I think maybe a testing ground for what's going to

happen in these IPOs. But I mean it's another >> low float high FTV shitcoin if you if you ask me. SpaceX I mean 100 times earnings. So they have these massive contract with uh Microsoft and Google getting paid billions per month and they're still at a 100x because they're going to build data centers in space and that's what's propping up the valuation. >> So I think >> but I do feel you though on like it's the first IPO of the of the bunch. >> Yeah. >> And so like you know there there may be diminishing liquidity from SpaceX to Anthropic to OpenAI into the rest. So if we think about the capital formation here, my understanding is that they need

uh 75 billion was the IPO raise, that threshold that they need to hit. They're actually overs subscribed. >> Where do you get 75 billion or 200 billion from? >> Well, you sell some other stuff. >> You sell some other stuff, right? And then that stuff goes down, right? So you use that stuff to buy the SpaceX, but then 5x of the initial float is going to be unlocked over the next 6 months. And so in theory, that's a lot of supply overhang. And SpaceX could then, you know, maybe it has an initial couple of weeks, couple of months, it does well, but then that goes down. So then you have these the things that you sold to fund the thing, those things go down.

Then all the supply gets unlocked. That thing goes down. Then both things are down because you have all this new supply and liquidity on the market. Then you have the next IPO, probably Anthropic, I think, is going to I was looking at the poly market this morning and I think >> Anthropic is set to go maybe September or October. Y >> open AI before the end of the year. So I think it's going to go then anthropic then open AI and these are going to have diminishing returns because when you sell to fund the other thing but then both things are down then what are you going to do? Sell lower to buy the other thing that's going to come out next.

They're going to continuously just weigh down way down way down. >> We'll see. >> I'm I'm I'm pretty skeptical of >> I think there is a play. I think there is a play on guys. As always, we're here at the Nest powered by Plume onchain asset management [screaming] infrastructure. Their Nest vault product, Ether, just deposit $100 million into Nest. So, shout out to Plume, guys. Let's get into into today's topics. Welcome back to the tower, Rob. >> Feels good. Feels good to be back. >> Markets weather Cippy Punk CEO, CIO, the chief investment officer, Will McVoy that they are Zcash treasury company.

Give us the update on Ironwood on the Zcash bull thesis. Following the shenanigans, we booked this out like three, four, five weeks ago. Took a while, but finally we got it done. Interesting timing. We've got Relay's founder head joins in the show as well as Chainlink Labs head global head of CFI strategy and sales in the studio. As always, our topics are powered by our friends at Treor. Use code rollup10 at treasor.io [screaming] to get your hardware wallet. Guys, we made the tickers bigger for you. [cheering] We made the sponsors bigger for you. We made the logos bigger for you. Thank you guys.

>> Thank you. And shout out to the team behind the scenes working to implement our new overlay system. This is the worst that it's ever going to be. It's only going to get better from here. Uh I'm excited. We're working on a couple of data partners that are going to bring some more sophisticated, more robust data for you guys. And I think there's a lot more that we're going to bring for you guys in terms of variety content formats. Andy and myself were scheming last night. Whenever we get together, we get some bigger ideas happening and so I'm very very excited to be bringing those to you guys. Of course, today's topics powered by Treser, the best hardware wallet in the game. Is Vlad still coming on today? Yes, he is coming on today, but we're just going to do a

recording at 4:30 and we'll probably drop it sometime later this week. So, um yeah, that is going to be not live today, but will be uh on the recording. And then AOB says, "Enjoy Rob TV vibes all the time." Good to have you back, buddy. All right, guys. Let's move into the markets and weather. Before we do, let me tell you about Frack, our premier stable coin partner. Open stable border list, the future of digital money. Visit frack stock finance to learn more about Frack. Guys, it is a beautiful 79°, partly cloudy, beautiful day out. I mean, it's hardly cloudy. I mean, it's a little bit hazy, but I mean, you can see everything out there.

>> It's good. I had a nice walk from the hotel into the office this morning. It's a beautiful day. Lots of Knicks gear out on the streets. >> I bet. >> Um Knicks are here for game four. They're taping off the area around my hotel. >> Yeah. >> So, that's just going to be interesting. I'm prepared for a wild. >> Yeah. They're trying to not have the Knicks fans obliterate the Spurs fans in Spurs jerseys this time. >> Yeah. So, we're going to see how that turns out for the for the lads. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, beautiful weather. Couldn't ask for for anything better really. Uh, this weather is powered by Relay. And we're going to get [cheering] Relay co-founder Peter Watts in the studio today. They've been sponsoring our weather from Florida [cheering] to New York. Anywhere you need to go, Relay can

take you there, will take you there. Relay.Link for all your crosschain needs. Excited to chat with Peter later today. Interop has really shifted. I've seen all of these interop protocols sort of become this liquidity operating system. This is sort of what I'm hearing across the aggregator space. And it's basically like you have this one-stop shop. it's going to end up being more in the back end, right? [snorts] Especially as we see more agents uh agents doing transactions on chain. >> Uh and so it's really uh kind of like you kind of have this liquidity you can pull from anywhere. You can serve it anywhere where you know centralized exchanges, decentralized exchanges, this bridge, that chain, this chain. Um they have the liquidity. They can serve it anywhere they need to go.

>> Yep. And Near Intense obviously just uh just got integrated with Hyperlquid as well, guys. So we're going to cover that. That's our or that is our weather for the day. Let's get into markets. Before we do, let me tell you about dinari, our tokenized equities partner. Visit dinari.com [screaming] to learn more about onchain equities and more. >> And you can't hear the sound effects. I hear applause for dinari in my headphones. Sounds great. >> Yeah. So wondering just before we went live, we were starting to talk about this where the leaders of the cycle, hyperlid VBV near >> uh near near is holding up pretty well around that $2 level, but the rest have sort of broken their structure. Whereas Bitcoin and ETH are now holding or green, which I find a very very

fascinating development. I think what we're seeing here is maybe some take profits on those initial rounds of course those initial growth uh those gains and now things like Bitcoin and ETH are just starting to starting to maybe find some support here. So >> I don't know I think they're getting ready for their uh >> their next leg down >> for their next little move down as well. I mean we'll see. We will see. >> Well this I mean obviously the the thesis is you know >> we're selling ahead of these IPOs, >> right? I mean Venice down 13% today guys. Uh Zcash just down a little bit.

Uh hype down 4% under 56 um per damn it. What a round trip that was boys. Guy comes on the show. Capital flows. Love the guy. He goes gamma squeeze coming next 60 days. I think there's still a chance for that. Obviously you >> one week into the 60 days here. Um, but man, whenever somebody whenever in my experience whenever we have a thesis that something's going to go a lot higher due to some extraneous circumstances when it's already gone high, it is it is it is oftentimes telling. So, we'll see. We'll see if we get that back. I would like to see it back. But, yeah, like Bitcoin's not

making new lows, but the leaders are. And yeah, guys, I mean, I'm sure you guys are looking at at your near hype Zcash wondering or lighter even. Um, look, I think they're all still really really solid picks. Um, I just think, you know, you're going to have to be a little bit more patient longer. >> The leaders are no longer the leaders. >> You know, we had a a friend of the show in the in the in the studio yesterday, uh, or in the office just just holding a meeting and we were talking a bit about the buybacks meta, if you want to call it that. Yeah. um also related to the digital asset treasuries given you know Tom Lee and strategy and how these buybacks aren't necessarily to push the price up but take supply off the market.

>> Yeah. >> So that when prices rebound those coins are that much more reflexive because they don't have as much liquidity in the market. >> 100%. And I think you know we had this round of leaders. We had you know Venice, Near, Hype, uh Zcash, all of these were the leaders. I think that those four were categorically the leaders in revenue, privacy and AI. Um a lot of those all sort of, you know, put Zcash aside, but the rest of them have revenue, right? They all sort of share, you know, these three categories. Uh they all kind of had that narrative trifecta. And a lot of them were starting to use their revenue for buybacks.

>> Yeah. Again, in a down market, we're not like, especially if Bitcoin's going down, we're not going to see the relative strength trade. I think that thesis has been invalidated. Strong opinions loosely held. We're open to changing our mind >> in an up market. I think these are going to outperform. And depending on how much time passes, what narrative, you know, changes and how things shift, >> the supply dynamics, if there is supply taken off the market because of hype buying back their own token, it's no longer in the market. You can even take Sailor Strategy, Tom Lee, Bitmine, they're taking Ethan, Bitcoin off the market. Eventually, if buying power returns and there is no longer that that

supply in the market, these things are that much more reflexive. >> Yep. 100% agree. And I think it's not like a similar to the Clarity Act, similar to the Genius Act, similar to like the regulatory side of these big announcements, these things take a while to like have a real impact. They take, you know, they take months to years. Beef.HL says still bullish hype. US us here as well, obviously not going anywhere there. It's an incredible business. >> Very bullish hype. Um, and this is only going to, you know, I I don't think the USDC Treasury yield buybacks are priced in. Um, that's another $175 to $200 million a year of revenue, guaranteed revenue just from T bills. I don't think that's priced in yet, guys. But I do think

that's one of those things where like Rob's saying, this is like a year from now, there's going to be a dramatic amount of the supply of Hyperlid off the market. And like in in a more reflexive bullish environment for the majors, Bitcoin especially ETH that matters right now. It's a narrative. It's great. I don't think it matters as much. But in a more reflexive environment, the supply being off the market, even though everyone hates Sailor right now, everyone hates Tom Lee right now. The supply of these large assets being off of the market in the future is going to have a real impact. there will just be less supply when there is a bullish

trend forming. >> I mean, Sailor and Tom Lee are both at a similar percentage of their network, right? Both of them are kind of at four and a half to 5% of of network ownership. >> And Tom Lee just keeps buying. HL says correct. Yeah. I mean, look, that's kind of >> well, the the numbers behind what you're saying too, if we're looking at Hyperlid case, obviously, you know, Sailor with respect to Bitcoin, Tom Lee and ETH, all of this remains true. If we're looking at Hyperlid, um there are some stats around the USDC sitting on Hyperlid. It's about $6.5 billion. >> Yeah. >> Uh that USDC earns 3% interest. Uh 90% of that interest now gets funneled into buying hype.

>> Uh that means $175 million per year for buybacks. $14.5 million per month, almost half a million per day. That buys about 77 hype 7,700 hype per day at current price. This is 28% more than what the assistance fund was already buying. >> Exactly. >> Again, that may not have an impact on the price right here, right now, today. But six months from now, macro environment improves, right? Liquidity returns. We're past this IPO phase. Yep. >> You know, the general bullishness returns, Bitcoin bottoms, we end up higher and you know, there's 28% more hyperlquid off the market than was previously already getting taken off the

market. >> That is going to add extra reflexivity when the macro environment is more conducive to the upside. >> We agree. I think we agree, guys. Hold tight here. Powered by Zama as always, our markets. Visit zama.org to learn more about their confidential privacy solution. Guys, we're going to move into the news and what's been happening. Before we do, let me tell you about Near using Near Intense for private payments using Near.com. One account, no borders, your financial life onchain. One of the best products we've used on chain for managing your portfolio. That is Near.

All right, guys. Tulip King comes out and says he's excited for our lovely friends in China to provide us better models. What does this mean? What does this mean? So, Fable, the Clawed Mythos model dropped yesterday. >> Yeah. So, Mythos dropped, but it was a Fable is this neutered version of Mythos. uh in which they are essentially reading your prompt and they're throwing it away if it has anything to do with the categories that they deem high risk.

Meaning cyber security, meaning uh boweapons, uh you know, creating bombs and hacking software is what they're concerned about. So, they're not going to let you uh ask Mythos any of those prompts. I did see the benchmarks. Um the numbers are higher. It is on these benchmarks. It is substantially better at these things. I have not had a chance to try it out. Uh what Tulip King is saying here is that he looks forward to our Chinese brothers liberating the knowledge from this Fable 5 or Mythos model. Yeah. And selling it to me at 5% the cost and 2x the speed. He's referring to the open- source landscape in China.

>> Yeah. >> Uh Kimmy K2, Deepseek, V4. These are the models that um are bringing us look it's not if you have you know fable or mythos at 100% intelligence these things are like 90 to 95%. So it's an incremental drop in intelligence but it it really is magnitudes like 10 to 20x more affordable. >> Yeah. >> I mean someone said they put 50 bucks into Claude. it took them 10 minutes of Fable to like use up their credits.

>> So, you could get more you could get a lot further along with some of your prompts uh by using these Chinese models. They're just going to distill these mythos models, which means they're going to train Deep Seek and Kimmy based on Fable and Mythos. They're going to use it and just ping pong back and forth and say, "Hey, you know, get all the way up to speed, you know." So, it's basically like uh you know all the the points program yield farming type of you know activity user user activity. It's like >> points farm user activity the these mythos fable models to the nth degree.

Slam it with prompts. Learn everything you can about it and teach yourself about that how it responds to certain prompts. You know what it says so that your model becomes that much better. >> Implement it into this open- source Chinese model >> and then sell it for that much cheaper. Marvin says, "Seems like the individual tow subnets that have real revenues and even profitability. Bitcast don't get the valuation that they deserve." Dude, I was very impressed by um I was very impressed by the macrocosmos um conversation yesterday with Jake. I'm going to look at that um bit tensor subnet because Yeah. So, subnet 9113 macrocosmos.

I mean, yeah. So here it is. So he they actually just quote tweeted us and said thank you for the for the mention and yeah I mean it's it's this is the one Marvin that I think has the most potential is macrocosmos and I don't know what the ticker is but from our conversation yesterday they've achieved a 100 billion parameter model on in a decentralized fashion which I guess it's subnet one subnet 9 and subnet 13. So it's three different subnetss. I should have asked Jake how to get exposure to that. But yeah, that was the one that I was really impressed bit really impressed with from the bit tensor side.

>> Yeah. So again guys, you know, there is this secular categorical trend happening. Uh revenue plays a big part of this. AI plays a big part of this and we're going to continue to see this happen. None of these are going to survive a Bitcoin bare market. I think that is just the reality of the situation. However, things are going to bottom. We're going to return to normal. The market is going to get disillusioned. But once you have billions of dollars of revenue over the course of a year, and these things are going and actually acrewing value into the tokens, the market will become more connected to these fundamentals. And and I made this point yesterday. I mean, for so long, there was no fundamentals and no revenue. And the market was disillusioned to the upside. The market said, "Hey, we don't care about

fundamentals and revenue. we're going to price your token at billions of dollars FTV anyway. >> Now the reverse is happening. We're disillusioned to the downside. There actually is fundamentals and revenue, >> but we're not going to price your token there because now there is still market this market disillusionment. Eventually the market becomes rational again takes quite a while. >> I agree. I agree. >> Takes quite quite a while. Stay patient out there. And you kind of have these you kind of have these assets like Zcash, like some of these others that don't really you don't really need revenue necessarily, like more of these store value assets. I mean, Ethereum is trying to kind of operate in that space.

Uh we, you know, we'll see what the uh what the road there entails for ETH. Guys, we've got Will McVoy in the back. He's a CIO at Cipher Punk, a sick name for digital asset treasury company. Uh they've accumulated, I think about like two to 3% of the Zcash supply. Uh, he is a relentless Mert bullposter. I love it. Whenever Merc comes on our show, I see Will bull posting our show. So, I absolutely love to see that. And we're gonna get Will up. We're going to talk Zcash. We're going to talk Ironwood. We're going to talk what the hell happened, how bullish these guys are, their accumulation plans, whatever we whatever we can get to, Rob. We're going to talk about it. Let's get Will up.

Let's get the show started, guys. Um, and again, let us know in the chat if you guys are wanting to uh ask Will something. Will, welcome back to the show. Actually, it's your first time. Welcome to the show. >> Hey guys, how's it going? Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, man. It's going well. Great, man. We're uh we're in Empire State Building together today. It's a semi- rare occurrence. We're usually uh Florida and New York. So, we're here for ETH comp and uh you know, market's down, but things are buzzing, institutional bull market. A lot of good a lot of good action happening, Will. So, how's things on your end?

>> Um good. Yeah, I mean it's been an eventful week in uh in Zcash for sure with uh with the um the bug being sort of found and then quickly patched and um I think yeah I think we're just entering into a very interesting time with AI being used as um as this just superpowered audit mechanism for all these protocols and um but yeah it's been a it's been a crazy week uh in Zcash and broader crypto. I think markets are also insane right now with the the SpaceX IPO and and so on. So, um pretty crazy time.

>> Oh, yeah. So, Will, maybe you could just, you know, we had Mert on. Um he walked us through this uh you know, the the potential vulnerability and now, you know, the hard fork and whatnot kind of described what we're seeing play out uh before us. maybe you could just describe like where were you, what were you doing when you heard about this and and tell us like your emotional roller coaster as you've been reacting to the same things that we've been reacting to with respect to Zcash. >> Yeah. No, it's a good question. I mean, we're we're in close um close coordination with the major development labs in Zcash, right? So, Zuko at Shielded Lab, Josh at Zodel, um you also have Dave at um at Valor, and you have

Shawn Bo at Zcash Foundation. Um so, they all um you know, we were in close communication with them. Um I mean, I I was at the office kind of chatting with them about it, sort of um next steps. Um but but broadly I mean it's just from my perspective such a massive win for like the Zcash community, right? And it it's it really actually more specifically what it shows is how high quality our auditors and our security engineers and our cryptographers are that it was able to be found in just such short succession after Opus 4.8 came out.

Right. So, >> um I think that's like amazing and I think also that um it's going to be really interesting to see over the next few months as like FA well Fable 5 can't really be used for security audit but um as even 4.8 um is used to audit other crypto protocols and then also non-crypto sort of digital systems. >> Yeah, man. I mean I mean it's better to be in front of it than behind it, right? And I think that one of the big parts about this Ironwood upgrade coming out that we uh heard about from Mer and also read about was the embedded formal verification uh in the privacy system inside the ZK circuits and you know people have been

saying that this is just this another reason why privacy onchain is extremely difficult because essentially we're all used to verifiability on chain right and like it's very very important to have this ability to verify things in a democratized fashion anywhere in the world 24/7. Like that's like the primitive. A lot of the world doesn't exist on that primitive, but >> in the crypto industry, that primitive is key. And so this formal verification property in Ironwood enables that while still enabling the privacy aspect. And you know, we've also just seen a rise of AI linked exploits in DeFi. I mean, it's it's just been ever growing. And so just to kind of like put these two together,

when you guys are looking out from the cippher punk perspective on what Zcash, the investment thesis is becoming, how how has this kind of transition of dealing with this Opus 4.8 Claude White Hat vulnerability into a formally verified Ironwood upgrade in the kind of era of time that we're in? How has this materially adjusted or altered your broader Zcash thesis? Has it has it not? Um kind of just, you know, give us a bit of insight into the way you're thinking about the the investment thesis as of now.

>> Yeah. So what we one thing that is core to our investment thesis and we've known this since the beginning we've known this for years is that the community of security engineers and cryptographers inside of Zcash is second to none. I mean, you just have such high quality engineers auditing the code base um and then also um upgrading the network, right? So there's there's a ton of great upgrades there. There were even a ton of great upgrades before sort of the bug in and Ironwood with Tachion and so on. Um so so the fact that this bug was found in in sort of the manner that it it was uh it just gives us even more confidence

of how high quality the the space is in terms of talent. Um and it's not dissimilar from when you're investing in any sort of other business. If you're doing venture it's it's largely about the team, right? How world-ass are they? What's their moat? How differentiated are they as operators? Uh and and as it comes to as it pertains to Zcash specifically, there there really is not another group in crypto that is as world class um as the folks working at the protocol layer um on in in Zcash. >> Yeah. And I take it when you're going and you're talking as a digital asset treasury company. You know, part of your job is almost like this investor

relations go out advocate for for the protocol and and find, you know, structural capital allocators that that are aligned with the thesis. You know, we've had other treasury companies, we've had, you know, Joseph Shalom from ETH. Uh we've had a number of other treasury companies come in come into the studio and on the show. I take it your conversations are probably quite a bit different than some of the other treasury companies that we have on the show. They're looking at maybe, you know, protocol metrics, revenue for the chain. What are some of the metrics that you're communicating to these capital allocators? When do you see their ears perk up? When do you see the light bulb moment in them and and they ultimately take steps to invest?

Well, well, first off, I I want to flag that while we do have a a digital asset treasury, our treasury is denominated in Zcash. >> Um, we obviously hold a ton of Zcash. The end goal for us is very much not to be just a DAT. Like, I think DATs were were maybe this this thing that happened in the, you know, this transition period where where cryptos becoming mainstream and and traditional financial markets want more exposure to them. Um so our goal is to certainly accumulate a ton of ZEC but also make other investments in and around Zcash. Um that um but also in and around privacy because we think the sort of the long-term bullcase for privacy is certainly the strongest in

crypto. I think it's one of the strongest in technology certainly in the context of AI um when when privacy can be viewed as this sort of um you know other side of of the coin to AI in a sense um but from when we're talking to investors um that's really the thing that resonates the most right sure you can point to um certainly Zach price action's been very good in a in a period of time where broader crypto markets have been You can point to the shielded pool. You can also point to uh like I mentioned earlier that the talent in working on Zcash. Um but at the end of the day, it's pretty clear that privacy

technology is a widely important hedge uh against surveillance against sort of uh some of the negative externalities of AI. um because you can just sort of simply make the observation that we have never had less privacy than we do today, >> right? So, um and this has sort of just been a trend since the advent of the internet. We've, you know, maybe stepwise down from the internet, then um then phones, another step down. Social media, another step down. With AI, it's a very large step down. very noticeable step down. Um so those are the things

that resonate the most with investors. Uh and and with all that in mind, there's also this observation that no one is really working on privacy, especially in the public markets, right? Like Apple likes to say that they're they're super focused on privacy. >> Um but there there there really is not outside of us another public company focused on privacy. >> I saw an Apple ad focused on privacy the other day. I think I was watching the NHL Stanley Cup and it was it was talking about how using Safari is like the best form of privacy in the internet today and I I thought it was quite misleading actually.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right down the street from our office there's a um um there's a big billboard that says like yeah Safari the the most private way to to browse the internet. And it just obviously skips over a handful of a massive handful of considerations. um that any like actually privacy concerned individual would uh would have. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so then you know when you're speaking with um you know allocators who interested in Zcash, they've seen the performance, right?

There's not that many ways to buy Zcash exposure in public markets and I think the like the core value prop is shielding it anyways. um when the conversation from your side is happening with largecale investors um you know anything from like an asset management to an endowment or anything in between is the is the Swiss bank in your pocket is that like the big breakthrough like with hyperlquid it's like they make this much money they buy back they have tokenized you know stocks everything on chain great Bitcoin you know it's like digital gold Ethereum you know, there's some question marks. There's kind of

different explanations. Is is is the conversation like is it as because I mean for us and for CT and people who understand it's like private Bitcoin but people get really annoyed and they say that that's misleading and then it's like this kind of like Swiss bank account in your pocket from like the understanding of using Zotle and shielding your Zeke or uh shielding your Zach when it when it comes to like the larger scale investors is it is it could you just give us a breakdown of it's kind building off what Rob's saying about like is it just as simple as this like private form of like this private store of value kind of what Bitcoin was supposed to be? Um just talk to us about

what that light bulb moment really is. >> Yeah. So I mean [clears throat] over the fa past 5 years for better or for worse institutional investors have been orange pill right like you have all these institutional investors that went out and bought Bitcoin and now it's becoming like pretty obvious uh that Bitcoin has this one major flaw and that is that it's fully transparent. Um it really wasn't thought about that much 5 years ago. So, so the pitch to those sorts of investors is like, hey, look, sure, like like I personally I don't think Bitcoin's going to zero, right?

Bitcoin is what got me into the space. It's super important. So on um but in the if you think Bitcoin is valuable, right, for for all the reasons why you think Bitcoin is valuable, surely you would think that a private version of Bitcoin should also be very valuable, right? And then you can sort of have a conversation around like what actually is the right market to to compare it to. Um but it is um uh that that those are sort of the the conver like the core of the conversation um that we're having. Um it's private Bitcoin, it's private encrypted cash, right? Um and again it it maybe wasn't as clear well it certainly wasn't as clear several years

ago. um that privacy was super important, but now with AI and just how easily you can dissect any like public ledger, [snorts] um you can also like bring in other information um that's been like leaked through hacks or even information that you've posted individually on social media like just totally willingly. Um you just put it all together and um it's it's becoming pretty clear that AI is is going to make a lot of really crazy connections.

It's going to completely deanmize Bitcoin. And that's why I think a lot of investors are thinking about Zcash as a as a hedge to Bitcoin. >> Yeah. And I think we've seen that as well. Bitcoin has gotten more institutionalized. It's gotten oified. Obviously, it was sort of the initi in initial original uh cipher punk currency, but things have changed. Michael Sailor has come on the scene and you know like you said most of the institutions have gotten orange pill and that means Bitcoin has gotten institutionalized and fundamentally the thesis and value proposition of Bitcoin has changed since its early beginnings.

Um and if we're looking at Zcash it enables a lot of the cipher punk ethos that Bitcoin originally had that it no longer has. I'm thinking about how we've sort of gotten to this Zcash moment in recent time. um you know, Near Intense, which is our AI partner. Shout out to Near. They helped open up this Zcash uh composability with sort of the rest of the the crypto ecosystem. Uh helped a lot of people find Zcash and ultimately get involved with it uh and kind of unleash this ecosystem.

I'm curious as Zcash becomes composable with more of the the the onchain ecosystem. We've kind of seen how that has led to its success in terms of price, but Bitcoin becoming more composable with the traditional financial system as an analogy has institutionalized it. How much do you think Zcash become composable with the traditional system, the the rest of the onchain ecosystem, how much could that potentially lead to the institutionalization of Zcash like it has the institutionalization of Bitcoin?

>> Um, it certainly could lead to the institutional institutionalization of of Zcash. I certainly think there is a role for Zcash to play in, you know, if you are a corporate or a company or a government, like obviously you don't want your entire um your entire treasury like fully transparent, right? That's like a national or a massive national security issue. Um right now in Zcash, we're super focused on making it um more usable, more scalable, right? such that it can be used, it can live up to this expectation of uh sort of unstoppable private money um that we talk about. Um Josh and Zod are leading the charge on

that. Super important company. You could sort of think about it as like the the front end for Zcash. if [clears throat] like the exchanges, right, the the centralized exchanges acted as the front end for Bitcoin back when Bitcoin um was super difficult to use and it was like hacks and you had to go to these like sketchy websites to get it. Um the exchanges played a super important role acting as the front end. So that's what Zod's focused on. I think that's that's sort of the core lift, right? make Zcash um more usable, more adoptable, um increase demand from like a grassroots perspective. Um and I and I think and I think if you do that well, the

institutions come, right? They eventually come. That's what happened with uh Bitcoin. Um but yeah, it is it is there's there is some lessons to learn from the institutionalization of Bitcoin, right? because >> did we you know I was in the space you know um a bit back and you know everyone would talk about um well it's going to be so great when all the the wealth management platforms have like Bitcoin uh on their you know available to their clients and it's like we get that and then you know okay like is that where we're really going to um we're going to sort of taper out or or stall out right now that you know all the you know all the, you know, people with big retirement accounts can

put 1% of their money in Bitcoin. That seems like a pretty um a pretty sort of, you know, hollow place to land. Um so I think there's some lessons in that and I think um I I Yeah, I think it's just important to highlight. >> Yeah. >> What's your like craziest Zcash adoption theory? I'll I'll give you an example like >> like Dogecoin interplanetary money. So, I had this theory for a while that, you know, Elon's got Dogecoin. Elon's going to go to Mars. We're going to need an interplanetary commerce system. If Elon is the governor of Mars, he can set up the currency. He can use he can use Dogecoin as that currency. Totally out of left field, totally wild theory.

Probably less than 1% chance that it happens, but who knows? Maybe, you know, it's farfetched. Do you have a similar Zcash adoption theory? Like, what is the thousand-year Zcash is still around? What does it look like? What is the theory? >> Well, I I don't think this is gonna happen because this would be extraordinarily bleak and and like if you if you take the sort of like the Peter Teal school of, you know, thinking around this, it's like, well, the risk with AI is that we devolve into into some sort of thing where it's like one world government. If you have one world government, you probably are in this like totalitarian, you know, authoritarian situation. There's, you know, one currency. Uh it it's very

1984esque, right? Um uh you know, they just you wake up one day and the money is not in your account or you go to the store and you want to buy this but uh no, you're not allowed because of you know, XYZ reason. Um in that in that uh dynamic, um Zcash is like the is like the the real cipher punk like rebel money. It's like what what you would use um to fight the you know the tyrannical sort of AI overlord in a sense. And look, I don't think that's going to happen, but I I think that that's your sort of crazy um that's what I would say in terms of like the crazy, you know, 1% or even less than 1% um outcome.

>> Yeah. Um well, kind of something on that note as well as on the previous question is there's been this rise of uh private stable coin and confidential transfers, right? So Near Intent has a confidential intent um product. You can send different assets crosschain confidentially can do payroll etc. Zama's working on some interesting stuff here as well. I feel like part of Zcash's value prop was around this like being the only private way to send assets on chain, store assets on chain.

when it when we have a world where we also have private stable coin payments, private crosschain transfers, do you believe that the utility or thesis of Zcash from being like private money, private kind of medium of exchange needs to shift into purely a private store of value type of asset. We have not really seen the proliferation of private cross-chain payments, private stable coin payments yet on chain, but it's very very close. Near and ZM are both doing incredible work amongst others, Tempo, etc. You might not agree with all the exact same privacy things, whether it's the TE model or kind of like private zones, but the reality is that's

happening. And I think Zcash had a a massive wedge there of being the only private transferable asset. That's not going to be the case in the future. Do we need to reposition or we're just like rethink around this just being like a private store of value rather than like a cash or a medium of exchange? Perhaps this is like far too nuanced of a question and a take, but this is happening on chain. What do you think of it? >> Yeah. No, I think it's a good question. So um so certainly I think Zcash is a great private store of value. It will also be a great private medium of exchange with like project Tachion which will scale the network. But to answer like the beginning of your question

like I think that with privacy a lot of it's like the devil's in the details with a lot of these protocols, right? So I view Zcash as [snorts] like true cipher punk privacy. you hold the keys, you have, you know, this option app optional shielded thing or this this this ability to shield. Um, uh, it's like true privacy. It's backed up by cryptography and code and encryption. There's a whole spectrum of other types of privacy things. The ones that I fear the most on the total other side of the spectrum are these things that are like web two privacy that we're just picking up from web 2 and porting into crypto, right? And saying it's like, oh, it's

like as private. It's not fully transparent like Ethereum or Bitcoin, but it is uh it's as about as private as like AWS or or something like that, right? Like in that dynamic like who can actually get at your information or your data? It's like, well, it's like who set up the contract and who owns the database and who has the servers and like can the government give like a subpoena to this group or like you know a random government can can they get out the information? Um, so that's not really that interesting. I don't think that's like not true privacy. That's sort of this um this sort of uh fake, you know, very hollow privacy that we've had for the past 20 years. Um, so, so with with all that being said,

yeah, I think I think you know, some of these sort of more web 2 privacy applications make sense, you know, in isolation, but at the end of the day, Zcash is true privacy. It's true cippher punk privacy. And I think there's just like there's an an immense premium uh to be put on that. And one of the things that I wanted to kind of also touch on on that note is about the quantum nature and the the postquantum nature of ironwood that and then into uh >> yeah exactly this tachon upgrade. What is the material like we're somewhat technical like we can understand kind of blockchain architecture here like what is the material change that is going to be required to take Zcash from where it

is today to a more postquantum ready state? um I know it's being worked on actively and this is another advantage to kind of Bitcoin and other networks is this while immutability and oification is great from a value prop perspective it also is kind of damning in a way especially with quantum and with AI with things changing so fast you guys are able to kind of be ahead of that what does that postquantum roadmap actually look like from a technical specs of evolving the chain to be postquantum ready >> yeah So, um, there's certainly folks that are are much better at at at kind of walking through the the the road map here. There's I mean absolute worldclass

quantum cryptographers that are that are at work at this. Um, I would just say like in terms of where we stand today, Zcash just has this advantage over Bitcoin because the public keys are u shielded, right? In in sort of this quantum attack scenario that that's like the attack vector, right? So Zcash has an advantage from that perspective over Bitcoin. The other the other advantage that it has is that the community is actually focused on it, right? It's it's it's it's not just um Bitcoin the community is not focused on it in Zcash today. It's not perfectly quantum proof, but there is a road map in place to get

there over the next over the next several years. >> Y >> um but yeah, there's there's folks that can go super down the rabbit hole um on that stuff. Um it's quite technical obviously. Um, but it gives me a lot it just gives me it gives me a lot of confidence that that >> folks in the Zcash community that we're close to are working on it. And um, it's just really puzzling that um, you know, some devs in in other communities are not. >> Yeah. Or even prioritizing or addressing it as a as an issue. Uh, one more thing from us. I think Rob's got something as well. This shielded term like I think it's sexy. Like I think it's like cool.

It's like in the no. It's kind of like zoomery. Like it I think it can catch on cuz privacy is not sexy. Like the people that care about privacy, they are a very slim majority. And it's one of these things where um there's like a stated belief and then there's the actual desire. And often times people say like they want privacy but their behavioral habits do not actually align with that stated uh state of belief or state of or state of desire. Privacyy's kind of got this interesting property from like a cognitive and human like deep human level. But when it comes to like the branding of the shielded concept like do you think this is sufficient to like

catch on to like a mainstream like architectural like dialogue like is this shielded brand because I know Zama is doing a bit here. Zcash is is obviously pioneering this idea. Near's kind of popped it on. Shielded is the new modular, >> right? Like like like is Shielded the brand that we can take Zcash and privacy and make it sexy and make it mainstream? How do you think about kind of like the brand of privacy to make it appealing to the mainstream? >> Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I am a fan of of of the shielded branding. I'm I'm a fan of a lot of the branding that that we've developed in the in the Zcash [clears throat] ecosystem, whether it's encrypted

Bitcoin or Unstoppable Private Money or or private digital cash. I think all of these things are are catchy. They're also accurate. Um I think that from a marketing perspective you highlight something which I think is generally there is some truth to it that people may say they want privacy but then their actions are different um from actually you know that um I just think that's going to change pretty drastically. I think that we're going to have a, you know, I I really wouldn't be that surprised if there are these like significant privacy scares, right, driven from AI, just

driven from the fact that everything's so interconnected now. Um, there's just so much information that's public about you. And I think um initially I mean this is already true but initially there's just this going to be this small growing population of people that are like well yeah that's a major risk. I need I need to have a private store of value. >> Um at the very least just as like a a hedge or or sort of like for your rainy day fund like your emergency fund, right? Um and then that that grows and grows um sort of in parallel to AI becoming um sort of more integrated in your life, right? because at the end of the day, you want you're going to want

to give um as much information as you possibly can to AI because that's what makes it helpful and that's what makes it um beneficial to you, right? So, I think as you're doing as you're doing that, as you're noticing that um wow, this like thing knows so much about me, like literally knows what I'm like thinking and what I like love and what I hate. And it's like, ah, that's like kind of weird now. Um I think I think that's the trajectory we're on. Uh and that's why we're focused on privacy broadly, right? Like Zcash is going to be the important uh sort of financial privacy um asset. Um but I think you there there's a wide range of um privacy

technologies that that are going to fit other use cases um that are just going to be wildly important for everyone to adopt. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um there I want to circle back to a question that Andy asked around kind of this like private stable coin thesis almost like the Zcash currency thesis. Uh especially because this is where there was a lot of adoption after Zcash became more composable and liquid and accessible to many. Um it almost feels as if you know we you kind of you kind of kick back to Bitcoin in 2016. We were having the block wars, right? The block size debates. Do we want to increase the block size and treat Bitcoin like digital cash and use it for, you know,

buying a cup of coffee? Obviously, we don't we want it to be private. So, there is a thesis one way or the other, but we kind of revisit the store value versus currency conversation. Feel like Zcash goes more into the store value conversation, but given the rise of AI, censorship, all of these things, we still need a private currency that we can use on a daily basis. How much of a thesis do you hold around a Zcash currency thesis or are you and the rest of the Zcash community almost you know fully gung-ho on Zcash as a store of value?

>> [snorts] >> So, so the community is very focused on making it a means of uh transaction, making it a money, right? That's what project Tachion is focused on, increasing the scaling. Um, so um that's super important and I think that's that's the long-term goal. Um I I I hesitate a little bit comparing Zcash to something like a private stable coin because um I don't actually think like the private stable coins are private, right? like if if you just put USD if you figure out a way to sort of um I don't know shield whatever the mechanism would be to shield USDC you're still holding a stable coin that is essentially like a um

>> it's sort of like a a mandated CBDC right like it's it's it's only one it's only one um one sort of layer removed from a central bank digital currency so I mean yeah to the extent in the future can there be like some sort of algorithmic stable coin that's that's shielded or decentral. I mean those those things haven't really worked. Um but um that's why super focused on Zcash is both a store of value and a this global money um that can be used privately uh all around the world.

>> Yeah, Willman, go Nick. Go Nicks, baby. Let's go. Thanks for your time, Will. Um Zcash is remnant of early Bitcoin days. We were early 2017, late 2016 over here. You remember the volatile days, the uh Bitcoin Cash hard fork, the SegWit debate, the China band, >> the the Zcash launch on Paloni X of seven Bitcoin for one Zcash. >> We were there. It feels like early Bitcoin. It It feels good. It feels like something worth fighting for. Uh in an era of the space, looking through it through into the mirror in somewhat of an identity crisis. uh as the adoption of technology has happened, disruptive

technology is is hitting the mainstream, the space appears to be in this identity crisis. Zcash feels like a feels like a way to return to fundamentals and so for that we appreciate your time and appreciate your work. >> Thanks guys. Yeah, totally agree and and thanks for having me on. >> Cheers. >> Absolutely. We'll see you next time. Keep crushing, man. Peace. >> Thanks. Peace. >> All righty, guys. Uh, Nathan says, "AI agents will need identity, permissions, reputation, private memory, transactions, confidential data access.

Zcash wasn't built for that." And I think that's where it gets left behind. >> Okay. Interesting. I mean, >> it's a question of >> I I think it's a question of whether you have that at the asset layer or you have that at the protocol layer, you know, because you can use something like Near or Zama and you can hold these things in a confidential way, right? Zcash is private money. You can shield these assets. quantum resist and all these things especially after Tachion maybe it doesn't get you all the way there based on what you know Nathan is saying here permissions reputation identity but once you combine a private asset with private rails I think you can get much much further along yeah I mean I I think that Zcash is going to do well

no matter what and I'm excited. So guys we're going to get back to the news. We got uh 10 more minutes until our guy uh from the relay team is here. Let's flip over to hyperlquid pers are now live on near.com. So you can deposit any asset from 35 chains directly in hyperlquid access 50 markets up to 40x leverage confidential per coming next. This is something guys that I think privacy is going to have a really really big splash in. While the beautiful thing about hyperlquid is that you can see everybody's positions. you have open transparent access to the funding rate.

I do think that we're going to see a need for the confidential per confidential kind of growth. IB says I know K Quai network designs private stable coins QI and KAI feel like a programmable store of value. I agree they're trying there. I'm not sure on the level of adoption quite yet for them compared to something like a Zcash or to like private near intense. Let's play this video real quick and then we'll we'll we'll keep it rolling. And I think this is big. You can now confidentially transfer assets from any chain via near intense into Hyperlquid.

[music] [music] powered by Hyperlid. >> I mean, it's very cool to see. I thought we already have private purpose and hyperluette. Yes, I did get a DM from an old friend, Jedi, about Silhouette. Silhouette um private per trading on Hyperlid. I thought that was great. Um and I think we'll see more of that, guys. So I I think that's a great great thing and I think that we need to see more of it. We want to see more of it as well.

>> Yeah. And I think more people are going to implement this. Obviously we we saw several wallets and frontends trade XYZ all implement per in the back end. Near is effectively doing the same thing. The thing is Near has the ability to do this confidentially and so they they've gone and done the same thing but they have privacy enabled. So you guys can go to near.com. You can turn on pers in your near.com account. Fund your hyperlquid account with any supported asset from any supported chain because it has near intense underneath. >> Uh that's automatically swapped to USDC using near intense. Go long, go short, hedge what you already hold, set your profit loss guard rails uh from any chain without exposing your wallet history. Very very cool to see. I think we will see more of this and I think

Near has one of the more competitive offerings uh over and beyond just another front end for Hyperlid perks. >> Agree. >> All righty, we're going to keep it rolling into the next part of the news segment here. Before we do, let me tell you about our friends at Lee. They are our premier crushing partner. Visit Lee.fi, universal market access for digital assets and more. Visit lead.fi, Five guys. All right. Open AI is looking for a 20 year long lease on a totally unbuilt and theoretical 10 gawatt data center that Nvidia would partially finance utterly farcal. And we're at the end of the line, folks. So,

I mean, this just reads like super bearish. Like, I don't really I don't really have a take on it, but it reads super bearish. This is pure >> narrative building ahead of IPO is what this is. >> Advanced talks to be of a 10 gawatt AI campus in Ohio. Guys, these things are like large. They are demanding more energy from the grid than hospitals like a matter of like multiples. Aopcon says bullish on Hyperlid. We say we agree need to set some lows, wait for an accumulation phase, then we can go again. Yeah. And if you look at, you know, all the liquidity that's been poured into the system, you see AI going bonkers and then you see crypto and

where it's at. It's because AI is scooping up all the liquidity. >> It is so what Arthur Hayes's post was about >> effectively. Yeah. I mean, you you had um more than a trillion dollars in net new liquidity added into the financial system. You look at M2, you look at financing, you know, of of general liquidity in the system. And yes, new liquidity has been added into the system. And generally when that happens, crypto does well because it is a reflection of liquidity in the system. Especially something like Bitcoin that has zero fundamentals, zero revenue, zero activity other than just a meter of the amount of liquidity in the system.

>> Dude, this guy's having too much fun today, man. [laughter] Oh my gosh. And so when that happens, you'd expect Bitcoin to go up, but all the liquidity is getting scooped up by these AI companies. >> Scoop scoop. >> Guys, I think Knicks got game four. What I don't want to see is that the Knicks win in San Antonio because that would be boring. I want them to come back, win in New York, >> game game six. Game Knicks in six. Knicks in six. I think we're going to get the one today. Um, so yeah, I do think AI has gotten pretty much hoovered up all of this liquidity and uh we haven't really seen it transition over over to Bitcoin and the rest.

The fact that they're doing this, I mean, we also saw that there was Soft Bank. >> Yo, is Robbie yelling at you guys or is he just yelling at me, >> guys? I think he's just yelling at me. I don't know why he's yelling at me, but he's >> animated today. My bags are heavy. >> I want them to go up. I want them to go up so I can exit a little bit higher before we get 40k Bitcoin and $50 hype. >> Oh my goodness gracious. >> I think these IPOs are just >> they're coming. They're coming. Arthur is bearish. Guys, we're going to get into our daily equity segment here. Then we've got our first uh inerson guest from Relay, Peter Watts, the co-founder CEO there. Let's flip over to our daily equity segment and we will get you guys

into the know from our friends at dinari about this IPO wipeout that has been happening. Let's get into it guys. Now, $2 trillion has been wiped up from the US stock market in the last two hours. This post was earlier today. Two possible reasons for the selloff. First reason is SpaceX IPO on June 12th at a $1.77 trillion valuation, raising 75 billion, the largest IPO in US history. SpaceX

allocated more than 30% of shares to retail investors, three times the industry norm. I'm bullish on that. I got I mean I saw a tweet that said, "Look guys, they're only raising 75 billion. That's it's not like they're raising all 1.75 trillion. That's not as much money. That's a lot of money for people to go find somewhere. And I think they're going to sell off stocks to go do it. NASDAQ changed this rule specifically for this IPO, cutting the waiting period from 3 months to 15 days. It enters 15 trading days after listing, putting forced buying around early July.

When that happens, every QQQ fund must automatically buy SpaceX an estimated 22 to 27 billion dollar in forced mechanical buy pressure coming to SPCX. This is is this is to make room. This is the thesis right here. >> Every existing NASDAQ 100 stock gets trimmed. That's the rebalancing, right? So QQQ is going to track is a major industry from Invesco. attracts a lot of these major NASDAQ tech stocks. All of those get sold in order to rebalance the portfolio. So that SpaceX, which is going to launch, I believe, at a top 10 market cap company in the entire world.

Wow. >> When it goes live, it will be one of the top 10 market cap companies in the entire world. I think upwards of seven, number seven in the world. >> They're going to need to take a major stake in this. And so the thesis is that yes, all these other stocks, companies, crypto, everything, we're going to sell everything in order to make up the amount of buy pressure that we need to get SpaceX to where it needs to be as a position in these indices. >> Both retail and institutions are raising cash, retail to participate in listing, institutions to prepare for the forced index buying in July.

>> Yeah. So both of these guys are pulling capital from the existing equity structures and they're going to be just dumping it into SpaceX. We'll see if this is enough to offset the amount of supply unlocks that are going to be coming over recent week or coming weeks and months. I think in the in the you know 6 months following the IPO 5x of the initial float is set to launch and get unlocked. >> Yep. >> Yeah, >> man. So this but but then again so that is the SpaceX >> that's the thesis. The other one is just the insider positioning ahead of this news. It signals that maybe these large sellers know something that's happening but I think it's all correlated. I think it's all correlated to SpaceX here.

>> I think you can bombing Iran again. >> Well, there's that. I I think you can pull some liquidity a lot of liquidity from you know these names up here. Nvidia is down 3%, Microsoft 2%. That's a lot of market. You'd think a significant portion of that is going to make its way to supporting SpaceX's launch. You got to look at how much of that is going into the 75 billion up front. Then you've got to you've got to support the price when it launches as well as the unlocks that are come coming over the over the coming months. Yeah, >> I think we can get out of the woods on SpaceX and I think you can have a little bit of a draw down on some major names in in the in the NASDAQ and and you know

some of the MAG 7 and you can hold up SpaceX, but then you have Anthropic, you know, a month or two later. Then what are you going to do? You're going to draw down the NASDAQ and the MAG 7 another 5% to to support Anthropic's raise. It's not going to be as big as SpaceX, but it's going to be a trillion dollars. Not 1.75, but it is going to be a trillion. >> It's going to be huge. And so how many times are you going to be able to do this? You draw down these other names. You have the indust indices mechanically buy these stocks to rebalance those indexes. >> I just don't think we can do this three times. I think maybe maybe we can do this one time for SpaceX. Then you have anthropic open AI shortly after. I don't by the end of it you just

>> you're just ex the market is exhausted. kind of feels like a Bitcoin dominance phenomenon with SpaceX. Bitcoin rises in dominance when people sell alts to get Bitcoin. It is kind of similar to that. I agree. It actually feels more like awaiting the biggest token launch of the year. It feels more like It feels more like the Hyperlid token launch and when it just sent and everyone was trying to buy it or like even like Monad, you know, if they launched a year earlier or something. It feels like that to us. So guys, that's been our daily equity segment today. Shout out to our partners at Dinari for Power and the Daily Equity. Guys, we have Peter [cheering] from the Relay team here in the Empire

State Building. We're going to get him set up, guys. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with Peter. He will be ready to join us on the show in the Empire State Building live in the nest. See you guys in just a second. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music]

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70 7th floor. Guys, we are back here at the tokenization tower live with our friend Peter Watts, the CEO and founder of Relay. Relay is is one of the dominating interop protocols in the space, making a ton of money, fulfilling a lot of the promise. Peter, how's New York treating you? Welcome to the studio, man. >> It's great to be here. Good to be back.

Lived here for 10 years. >> Really? Yeah. >> Where at? >> Everywhere. You know, start in the center and then slowly go further out uh into into Brooklyn. >> Yes, sir. That's how it goes. >> So, what's the what's the main prerogative here in New York? Obviously, this is like the the institutional era of this industry, right? It's a lot happening. There's a lot of allocators, asset managers, you know, when do you what are you talking to them about? How's these conversations going? >> Just came for this, you know. Uh no, we've got a ETH comp this week. We have an office now in New York, so we're all over the world, but got a few people here, so lined up a few things. Um, and yeah, it's just good to it's the place to be.

>> Yeah, Peter, maybe you could give us the the download on Relay over the last couple weeks. Obviously, Interalp has changed dramatically. We covered it in depth, uh, speaking about it from really the the origination of kind of this multi-chain world. And then you know shortly thereafter was it became obvious that we're going to need to connect all these chains compose across them. Um what is uh what has life been like at relay over the last couple of uh months? >> Yeah I think interop historically has been just like bridging and you know for a while there there was kind of an insane number of chains. I would say it's like starting to concentrate like I think we've peaked at the number of chains and now we're starting to remove

a few like this. you know, we're still at like 80 chains, but it's definitely concentrating. At the same time, you've got kind of ARC, Robin Hood's, you know, like bunch of people kind of doing new chain. So, they're still coming out, but there's definitely some consolidation. And then I think, yeah, it's like moving from just bridging to more integrated, you know, where you're onboarding directly into an app. You don't even realize you're bridging. It's like, I'm just depositing into Poly Market. But behind the scenes, that was a bridge. in Poly Market's case is not even the native USDC. It's some weird thing under the hood, but the user doesn't need to know. So that's kind of always been our thing of how do you integrate a swap into that bridging experience? How do you kind of make it extremely fast and

kind of seamless and abstracted? So I think just yeah scaling that up and and definitely a shift from kind of like ETH where we kind of started all the rollups kind of ETH denominated much more stable coin driven these days. Um and yeah, a lot more app driven uh and just like straight into the app don't even realize like from people's perspective they're just kind of moving funds between Poly Market, Koshi, Hyperlquid, Lighter and it's just like feels like kind of transferring between apps and and you know interop is about making that seamless. So you using a couple of those concrete examples you mentioned like poly market call sheet hyperlquid lighter like if I'm moving from poly market to call sheet for example >> do I ever do I ever interact with the

relay front end is relay given do facilitating that transfer if I'm doing that how do I go directly from poly market to khi or vice versa and what is the experience like and what is the interaction with relay >> yeah you're not using the relay front end these days and the front end was really important for us to kind of prove what's possible It's almost like a demo app. Like obviously a lot of people use it. It's convenient when you you kind of know exactly what you want, but it's very cryptonative, right? It's not abstracted in any way. It's like in your face. You have to pick exactly what you want. Um whereas, you know, these applications, they have their built-in onboarding ramps and we often power those under the hoods both for, you know, official UIs or some of the third party UIs for

Hyperlid. And so yeah, each of them will build their own like nicely integrated experience where it's like, you know, I want to deposit funds where do you have them? In the case of Poly Market, for a long time, that was USDC.E like the old USDC. Um, so Polygon. >> Yeah. So we're facilitating not only people bridging into Polygon, but then that kind of swap into the the kind of older USDC, now it's PUSD, like their own little wrapper on top of USDC. Um, and so yeah, we, you know, allowing people to kind of instead of like multi hop like I've got to swap to USDC, I've got a bridge and now I've got to go to Hyperlquid via Hyper EVM, like we just allow kind of anything to anything and

we kind of have pools of liquidity everywhere and we can we can do the settling over bridges and dexes in the background. >> What are some of the more notable integrations that relay has where people are using relay but they may not realize it? Yeah, I mean there's there's kind of like two levels often. Um, so we, you know, we power fun.xyz, which is like an onboarding for poly market and a bunch of other customers. We power, you know, privy recently announced their deposit addresses, you know, like under the hood, that's relay. So, you know, we we have some direct relationships, but also, you know, we're very lowlevel focused of how do you have the best possible liquidity? Um, and it's kind of nice to partner with some of these other teams that are out there kind of like

signing the deals and and kind of figuring out what apps need. And so, yeah, we work with a lot of the kind of developer platforms. Mesh is another one. Um, and and so, yeah, not only are you not using the front end, but you might use another developer tool and not even realize that kind of under the hood, we're often kind of uh doing the actual uh kind of last mile of kind of making it work. >> Yeah. And you mentioned kind of this consolidation of the chain side and what we've talked about right now is strictly around applications but also around specific assets. Would you say that relay's perspective of the world has shifted from a sort of a chain centric into more of like this product ccentric or asset issuance asset issuers view of the world. Yeah, I think the word

interrupt is maybe historically meant chain interrupt, but you can think of it as asset interrupt as well. Like you need to seamlessly move between these and it's different to exchange, you know, like exchange is like trading. You're speculating on it, but it's, you know, interrupt the way we think about it is I just want to kind of like go over here and like under the hood that might involve some exchange, but like usually you're willing to, you know, pay a little bit more to just have it work every time. And there's there's also like different needs. Usually, if you're onboarding into an app or or buying something, you need an exact amount on the out. You know, most trading exchanges, Dexes, Dex aggregators, they all work off exact input. It's like put something in and then like randomly like there's going to be some slippage. You

know, I'll take whatever I can get. Whereas when you're doing payments, you need exact amounts. So, yeah, it's definitely shifted to kind of thinking about assets. I think stable coins have also gone through a bit of like expansion where everyone was going to have their own and then it's like maybe it's like you know not as crazy and you're seeing it consolidate. So even things like you know USDG is an interesting one that's like starting to emerge that we're seeing a few apps kind of like rally around that rather than all do their own. But then we're also seeing MetaMask and Phantom kind of having their own. So I think it's like somewhere in the middle where it's like it's not free to have your own stable coin in the same way it's not free to have your own chain because then you need to think about bootstrapping

liquidity for it. So there's like some bar to clear. Um but at the same time there's there's nice advantages to having your own and and so yeah we we are also shifting from like historically chains were the main people we we talked to but a lot of talking to asset issuers and how how we can make sure they have liquidity in their chains still predominantly kind of US stable coins but definitely FX is kind of like on the horizon and again it's it's the same thing it's like you need interrop between currencies you need it to be seamless and you know that's what I would argue credit cards do. You just kind of go to pay. You don't have to care what, you know, maybe the analogy is like I don't care what bank, you know, the merchant uses. That's like the

chain. And I also like don't even care what currency it is. It's just going to work every time. It's going to swap in the background. Um, and yeah, you might pay like a fairly widespread, but you just don't, you know, you just want it to work and move on. And we're kind of seeing the same thing play out. >> Yeah. And for a long time, users had a similar point of view. It would essentially be okay we're going to go to this chain started with the chain and then we knew that there was going to be a decentralized exchange on that. We knew that there was going to be a lend borrow a yield aggregator. There was apps on this chain. We would go to that chain to use those apps. Now it's much more the asset centric view where hey I want exposure to this asset. I don't

really care if my stable coins are here there if my ETH is here or there. I want to do the thing. I want to get it with this asset. Wherever that chain or that swap takes place, I just want it to be better, cheaper, faster. I don't really care where that that takes place. >> Yeah. >> Given that you've seen a bit of a consolidation, how around, you know, some some certain assets, certain chains, how does that change the business model of Interop? You know, my understanding, you know, previously was that, you know, you would go the more chains the better because people are always trying to go to those chains. you know, the more assets, the better. People are making more swaps.

But now that we've consolidated around, you know, deep liquidity in a smaller set of of coins and a smaller set of chains with deeper liquidity, how are you rebalancing or optimizing, you know, relay's business model and the business model of Interop as a whole? >> Yeah. I mean, I think even if it consolidates a little, it's still fragmented. Especially when you think of the permutations of like, okay, maybe there's only 10 chains, but now there's USDC on every one of those chains. There's UST on every one of those chains and and kind of 10 other stable coins. Now you've got 100 permutations. And so the other thing we've seen is like you might have like the main six chains, but then this wallet wants the main six plus this one. And then the next application needs these ones. Plus, you know,

everyone's got their own like bespoke needs for, you know, whatever reason. MetaMask really is like tied up with linear. And so you still kind of like need a lot of them. And then it does allow us to kind of concentrate liquidity in some of the majors. And so in some ways it makes it just allows us to go deeper on those big ones. But it's it's far from like there's still a fragmentation problem. you still have like, you know, there's the the duopoly, but just the fact that it's like they really kind of are 50/50 in terms of like USDC, USDT, like they're winning in different ways. And so the amount of people that need to go between these is significant. You still have Tron USDT like sticking around. Um, and that's one of the like most painful corridors. And

then yeah, you're going to start to see I think USDG uh appear in more places. And so it's consolidating, but it's certainly not consolidating all the way into a monopoly where you don't need to worry about it. So the business model is really the same where it's just, you know, deep liquidity and and like also I think rather than a race to the bottom on like best possible price, we've always kind of focused more on like reliability, like how do you just make it work every time? And I think what we find is like people are willing to pay a little bit more for that kind of like clean experience. The other thing is just like thinking a lot about how can we have price stability. So even though these stable coins like they're not

actually that stable. >> Yeah. >> Uh they're kind of floating on the market, they're trading, you know, at a 15 bps spread, >> once you get into these kind of like more consumer use cases, they expect them to be one to one. So this is another kind of opportunity for us of like how can we smooth that pricing out kind of uh like give the applications and the businesses that maybe want to subsidize the fluctuations. So like I think the users will in the long term get one one but that doesn't mean it's not going to cost 1:1 like it there will still be costs around kind of trading between the you know the underlying stables but I think the applications will subsidize them but then even the applications want you know they want to know what their costs are going to be so

they need you know stability so definitely that's kind of something we've increasingly got into into the game of of how can we offer stable pricing and how can we kind of like absorb some of the volatility and I think apps are willing to pay for that as like a really kind of nice convenience for their users and stability you know understanding their costs because the apps can make money in other ways you know whether that's on you know their core application or the yield on the balances uh so that allows them to kind of fund and subsidize the the trading cost so even if it goes to onetoone you know there's still revenue for us >> but why is relay or interop protocol as a as a whole why why are you guys the right partner or you you know, the the provider of this of this opportunity to

absorb that price difference and smooth out those stable coin fluctuations. Why, you know, if I'm if I'm an app that holds a lot of USDC, why don't I go directly to Circle or directly to Tether say, "Hey, I've got, you know, all of this. I want to anchor this at $1. Can I do redemptions for you?" Like, you guys are at a unique position in the market. Why why does it make sense for you to provide this this smoothing function to stable coins? Yeah, I mean um I think there's like different layers of it and and I mean one of the reasons the fluctuation exists is because you have these redemption fees. It's it's like 10 bps to you know redeem USDT into USD and then like so it's actually hard to

arbitrage it because you're paying fees and that's like why some of it persists and like and you you know you can get cheaper deals if you're doing bulk. So like I think it's just like the the reason people like relay is it's kind of like it's all in one. They don't have to stitch together, you know, inventory management and routing and it's just like okay, it's one system that I can just like any input token, any output token, maybe I'm then depositing into a vault and it's just all handled for me. So, I think like the bundling kind of is convenient and and we can kind of go up the stack and just like solve some of those problems for people. Um, and people seem to like kind of getting it all in one.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and and then Peter, could you talk to us a bit about the revenue story for Relay? What has the growth been like? What are the core business lines? Obviously, you know, you guys have just completed a race. You announced the relay chain pre-token there. We are in this era of like revenue driving to token holders businesses onchain from the investable asset perspective. People want to see this. What is the relay revenue story and what are the business lines of relay now? >> Yeah, I mean we have revenue and this is like a really nice position to be in um and thinking about what we want to do with that. You know, I think definitely um historically kind of the way relay has grown is like revenue is like being

fed back into liquidity. And so that's one of the things we're thinking about of >> rather than these like maybe token burns, it's like how can you actually take revenue, feed it back into a way that kind of fuels growth. So >> I would say we're taking it slow and you know not rushing into kind of one model or the other and still still kind of proving out demand and scaling it and just keeping very product focused you know like I think we'll get to some of these other things eventually but >> but perhaps that like just like give us the sense of the business lines like what are the uh drivers of of revenue and what has the growth been like? I mean we really have one business line which is like taking a bit of a margin on on a swap and it's like extremely

kind of clean and simple of like that is what we do now like within that you might have sub lines so like I think the volatile currencies like allowing people to go BTC ETH soul into stables or between them so and we have apps like FOMO so like this is kind of like the trading category and like their needs and like the the sort of revenue you kind of see there on like the longer tail tokens very different to kind of stable to stable and so that kind of business line is how do we maybe provide you know price stabilization and that's something that people pay for. So even even though the end user gets one to one, we can uh make money on it and yeah things like onboarding is like a really big category which is like somewhere in

the middle. It's still like people like go to apps to trade and they might be doing volatile currencies but just like the needs again around like it working every time maybe exact output. So we kind of have like these different categories that we're serving. Like to be perfectly honest, we talk a lot about payments and it's still early, you know, like people aren't really buying things, but it, you know, it's it's building. We're making sure we're we're kind of ready for that. It's still kind of a lot of bridge and swap, a lot of onboarding into apps, but at the end of the day, the business model is just kind of uh an exchange basically and being able to, you know, have a fully onchain business model that, you know, takes money on that. We don't ever charge chains or kind of stables to support them. them.

And this is like a deliberate decision >> because when you have that business model, >> then if your customers want you to and your users want you to go to a new chain or support a new asset, but that chain or asset like isn't willing to pay you, then you're like in this stalemate. So, we've always kind of like tried to keep it extremely simple where we can be everywhere and like really deliver what users and customers want and then just have that model of uh you know taking a spread on the on the kind of exchange basically. And then just real quick on that note, is the revenue story a significant like is it a hockey sick story where it's been it it was a slow couple years and then there's explosive parabolic growth? Has it been more linear? You don't have to tell us the

exact the exact like quantity of numbers, but like percentage- wise or kind of like year-over-year. What does that look like? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had like a year of like it's always kind of follows the market a bit, you know? So like it it goes up and down. Uh I think like January last year we we kind of went to Salana and like from there it's been kind of nice growth but it'll also kind of go up and down but like yeah the general macro is that we're kind of compounding. I'd also say we're nicely shifting from like one or two chains. So it used to be that like we were making all our money on DGN chain and then like you know it goes away then blast would come up. So it's like very concentrated whereas now we're like you know much

more distributed across like different chains different assets. it's much more kind of uh stable kind of continuous revenue and and that's kind of a focus of like how can we be kind of more resilient against kind of the market going up and down and I think that's why we've kind of latched on a bit more to payments and onboarding like you know like onboarding demand to poly market has not slowed at all uh you know despite kind of you know trading has slowed significantly so the more we can kind of like diversify that's kind of how we're thinking about it >> we've got a lot of LFRs in the chat people want exposure to this thing. They they want to be a part of this thing, Peter. I'll tell you that.

>> And uh I mean what what you're saying makes a ton of sense, not just in crypto, but in general business logic. The more distributed, you know, lines where your where your revenue comes from or you know, your more distributed your customer set, the more durable that is. You know, one one customer can leave, it doesn't really affect your business. Um you also mentioned how, you know, there is essentially one business line with maybe sublines to that. Um I I think that's way to go. Like I was having this conversation about where to go to eat the other day and it was like why am I going to go to this generalized thing? They do everything kind of 80%. I want if I want a cheeseburger I want to go to the place that makes a million cheeseburgers a day. They've been doing it for 40 years, right? That's the one

thing they do it extremely well. Um and I think the same can be true of exchanges, trades, you know, going chains interop. That's where you guys make your money. That's your bread and butter. So it makes a ton of sense to focus on that. Do it really, really well. um when it comes to revenue and how you reinvest some of the profits because you guys are revenue positive. You know, we we talk a lot about buybacks. We also talk a lot about reinvesting this into the business and and you mentioned that kind of the tried andrude way to do this has been reinvesting into sources of liquidity. I want to pair this with um you know maybe the asset ccentric point of view. So I'm curious maybe where there are less pockets of liquidity that you think are

a bit underserved because from my perspective this might be RWAS where we know that there's you know high quality assets that are out there that are getting tokenized. They may not have a lot of liquidity on chain right now and and you know that's because they're rather new in terms of their tokenization life cycle but they could also be you know pretty reasonable uh you know treasury allocation strategies right we had someone in here the other day talking about hey rather than you know buying back your own token or and burning that token why not you know use your revenue to go buy tokenized S&P buy tokenized anthropic and open AI shares is what this person was telling us and that'll get the community fired up. So, I'm I'm curious as you're looking at

reinvesting some of this revenue, are there underserved paths or assets that you can help facilitate and bootstrap some growth of those tokens and those paths with your own revenue? And generally, what do you think is the reinvestment strategy for the most business growth over the near term? >> Yeah, I I think there really is like two liquidity areas. You've got like the core assets that you're just turning over a lot around USDC, USDT, ETH, BTC on major chains and then you have newer assets on newer chains like the infinite list of RWAs and and we kind of think about it in in two ways where the protocol might generate revenue and you you almost want to have like the

direction we're thinking is you you have protocol own liquidity and maybe like the protocol gets first dibs on kind of providing the liquidity and earning the revenue, right? Because anything you allow external LPs, you're actually leaking uh revenue to those LPs or if you have curators, you're leaking revenue to these other actors. So like we're thinking more in this direction of how do we vertically integrate and so maybe the the protocol when it earns revenue, it uses that for liquidity and then it can earn the next kind of like round of of uh of revenue. But that gets hard when you get to the long tail. Like it's very capital efficient with the majors where they're kind of turning over. So I think like leaning on external LPs that can come in and provide liquidity for these other tokens and and what's nice is you know someone

might want to be holding these assets you know for speculative reasons and then they can stay long that asset and kind of contribute it into something like relay and earn yield on top of it. And this is actually one of the ways we're thinking of how can we solve it so people can provide liquidity in a single asset. You know, historically AMMs, they require you to like put BTC and USDC in and then as Bitcoin goes up, you actually like sell off your your Bitcoin right? >> And so, yeah, we're thinking a lot about how you make it possible to provide liquidity to longtail assets and stay kind of long while like earning some yield.

>> And this is the productive asset theory, right? This is the idea of like, hey, if I tokenize my S&P shares and it is going to be speculative and go up maybe, you know, annualized 7 to 10%, but I can add an additional one two to two% yield on top of that. For an asset of that size, this is massive potential value unlock because you're providing liquidity to this market. You're getting some yield as people are going back and forth in this asset. And so, as you're thinking through protocol owned liquidity, maybe we'll we'll talk a bit more about the RWA strategy. Is this where you think protocol owned liquidity could help facilitate and bootstrap, you know, the composable tokenized equity, you know, asset class or the RWA asset class? How

are you thinking about RWA's onchain in relay? >> Yeah, I think it's still early. Like there's some some really nice kind of developments, but like it's still kind of painful. like honestly the most interesting things I think are happening in per prediction markets around kind of >> uh off hours trading kind of preipo stuff >> and so we're definitely like paying attention and in some ways like at least today the biggest way we're contributing to that is more like enabling people to onboard kind of into the applications where they can trade those things but yeah once you start to get more kind of tokenized stocks and like how can you solve liquidity for that it is like one of our goals Especially if those are,

you know, the same asset is is issued on multiple chains. You have this problem of like are you going to have liquidity like on each, you know, each one of those chains and one of the ways we think about relay is like people mostly think about it for going crosschain. Uh but another advantage of it is if you if you can have liquidity for a pair in one place, then that same kind of depth of liquidity can be available on every chain. So you might actually just want to buy an RWA that's on Salana with Soul, but you know with kind of USDC on Salana, but instead of having a local DEX there and then having to have one on base and one on Ethereum as well, it's like how can we have liquidity in relay?

So you can almost like go to relay, do the swap at the best price and then come back to the same chain. So like it's something we want to get to over time is how can we actually support same chain swaps by kind of concentrating liquidity in one place instead of having to recreate liquidity uh on every single chain. So early days but you know solving the longer tail is is kind of something we think a lot about and it just kind of requires different types of AMMs I think that uh and like liquidity models that you know haven't been required when uh in the past.

>> Yeah. I mean on that note Peter actually specifically I remember in the early earlier days of relay you guys opted for a model that was far more capital efficient far more viable and scalable but got a lot of push back from like the L2B type crowd and I remember talking about this in Buenosares talking about kind of like what that progression looks like to a a you could say a more distributed system. Um could you just give us an update give our audience an update on that? What has the thought process been there? I do feel like the space has kind of shifted into a product maximization from a UX perspective from a uh just this thing works. It does it does a job every time. It does great.

Now we're in this era of mythos and AI honeypot linked exploits and people are really tweaked out sentiment wise about their assets on chain. What kind of words can you give to the community about the security parameters from Relay? How you think about this as a CEO? Yeah, I think we've been going through you, we're very product driven and pragmatist and and kind of have gone through an evolution of the product and the protocol and yeah, I think earlier this year kind of rolled out the the chain and and kind of like got to the point um around how the crosschain orders are settled and increasingly now thinking about onchain liquidity, how we decentralize liquidity and it's definitely scary, you know, uh but I think the flip side is like we've never

been in a better place to kind of like build, you know, hardened software and and you look at most of the exploits, they're actually kind of not in the code. They're kind of uh the opse of the team that has admin control. >> The other thing I'd say is like Relay is very capital efficient. You know, you look at something like Morpho with like 11 billion in deposit. That's real scary. whereas relay can can kind of you know and it's common in any any any decks where you can actually kind of recycle the capital for people trading back and forth. So you kind of need less at risk. And that's another reason we like the idea of protocol own liquidity.

It's like okay it's like >> it almost you know the risk when you bring in external uh LPS and and what that might mean versus the protocol itself taking the risk and and the more risk the protocol itself takes the more revenue it can kind of keep for itself. And so I think this like more allin-one vertically integrated is is is a bit of a way to do that and move faster um versus yeah have billions of user deposits and that kind of be weighing on you. Uh so yeah, we're almost we're like hopefully much lower down the list of uh honeypotss versus some of these kind of lending protocols. But yeah, I think I think the defense, you know, it's never been better. Like formal verification, these things that just like you just

couldn't do them, you know, it's just like sounds great in theory. You know, there's no way I'm going to do that is actually becoming plausible. And so I'm more in the optimistic camp that we can uh uh get to a good place and have really secure onchain uh protocols. >> Yeah. Yeah. We we have a a similar take and we've been seen a lot of this and it's just like this hardening of software like there's two ways to look at it. It's like software is over or like we're entering the golden era of you know unfuckwithable software because of the ability to go on offense rather than just have to play defense. Question here from the community really has no dreams of becoming an L1. Is that correct?

>> Not really. Yeah. I mean we talk a little bit about our chain but you you know very little. We see it very much as like a behind thescenes uh kind of piece that uh just allows us to get done what we need to get done and and just having our own chain means we can do things like put pre-ompiles there and and and and not necessarily have to you know be blocked by the road map of another team and I think that's where things will go where chains are you know they're less culty and they're more just like under the hood infrastructure y >> and no interest in kind of competing with the L1s that are getting applications to deploy on them. It's very much an application chain that kind of gets what we need need to get done

and and kind of connecting every other chain is is kind of the goal. >> I I think that was a very strategic way of asking when token if you ask me, but I I don't know. >> I've got a different question, so we're going to maybe move off that. Maybe we'll come back to it, but >> probably won't. One of the things that has gotten quite a bit more attention and you mentioned kind of the old way of doing the AMMs it was you know you have to put two tokens in you get some impermanent loss right now we're shifting towards more of this you know concentrated liquidity model maybe with protocol owned liquidity you go there you get efficient pricing you go back wherever you need to go we've also heard of this prop AMM meta can you just describe like is this orthogonal to the

whole AMM complex or is this an evolution that inevitably everyone in the AMM and interrupt space will end up at. >> Yeah. So a propm is basically a single market maker that can like write a program that can like adjust the the prices extremely efficiently and and what's great about it is they have a ton of control like instead of having to kind of like put orders in an order book and cancel them or try and concentrate liquidity in an AMM they have full control around where they place liquidity. they can even like give different prices to different wallets or integrators and it it is leading to tighter spreads. I mean it it creates problems around now you you need

aggregators to kind of stitch it all together and the work of an aggregator becomes harder but it's definitely like a a step it's like ultra concentration of liquidity basically. The problem is and it's it's really good for trading. The problem is that um if there's any stress in the market they will just disappear. They'll pull their liquidity out. extremely mercenary. You've probably heard stories of them like doing tricks of like quoting one thing and then like changing the price in the background like trying to squeeze as much out of the the slippage as possible. And that's I think that's one of the reasons where you know tying back to what I was saying earlier like when you're like onboarding into an app like or making a payment you actually don't need the absolute kind of like tightest

spread. You just need it to work. And that's one of the, you know, nice things about more traditional AMMs. They were kind of bad for LPS, but like they were always there. You know, you could always trade um the it just wasn't as efficient, but like in terms of utility um and livveness, they're really powerful. And so I think the other thing is that you also have price discovery. And so prop amms can actually bring price discovery onchain versus something like Binance because potentially you know that flexibility allows the market makers to go more aggressive. But again like if you're onboarding into an app and you just need exchange as part of that like relay is not doing price discovery. So relay can do something

that maybe leans on an oracle uh that maybe has a wider spread and so we're almost playing an entirely different game. So like I think the answer is both. You'll see prop ammms as like an extremely important mechanism for price discovery and trading and kind of like all of that. But then when you have use cases that need a trade as part of another action, you will almost want entirely different liquidity forms that are optimized for that. And I don't think prop amm is is the right model for that because because they are mercenaries because like the li you know you can't rely on the livveness. And that's what we're thinking about of how do you have something that's always there that works every time probably doesn't have the best price but it's

gonna you know achieve the properties or even the capital efficiency right like we have to deal with 50 versions of USDC so we can't have like pair pools we have to find like an it's almost like you went you know you've got like traditional AMMs with volatile pairs and you had correlated pairs like curve and then you have like if you think crosschain is like ultraorrelated it's the same asset so you can kind traded on on a flat curve. Um, and it's just like a different, you know, mechanism that doesn't exist. But we're kind of looking about how we can take what we've developed in a solver model where we kind of had a lot of control over how it's priced and how we can kind of turn that into an AMM and move it on chain is kind of like the rough uh direction that

we're we're looking to go. >> Yeah. >> Peter Watts, what a what a run, huh? What a run. More revenue, please. more. We need just couple months, a little bit of winter, and then we're going to go right back up. Revenue is going to come back in. Alltime highs 2027, 2028. All right, >> I'll do my bit. >> All right. All right, Peter. Well, thanks for spending some time with us. Uh, congratulations on the success. Hope you enjoy the rest of your time here in New York. Uh, I know it's a bit warm in here, so thanks for bearing with us and, uh, sharing some insights on the business model, on the interrupt landscape, RWAs, prop AMMs, everything in between. really appreciate it.

>> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for being here. >> All righty, guys. We're going to be back with our next guest here in the tokenization tower. Be right back. We will just make it just a sec. We're going to air this place out. Check the check the charts. Don't look. Keep the education flowing. >> Oh boy. >> See you in a sec, guys. [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music]

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All righty, guys. Welcome back to the tokenization tower. We're here with William Riley. William is not his first time on the show, friend of the show, longtime guest. Prediction markets are heating up amidst the FIFA World Cup, although I did see that they were going to maybe that they were short on selling tickets. So, I'm not sure what's happening there. Will, good to have you. Well, welcome to the tower, man. Yeah, great to be here at HQ. Beautiful view. Beautiful view. Always a pleasure to be with you guys. So, thank you. >> Likewise, man. It's a pleasure to have you back. Always fun to chat prediction markets. I think maybe the last time we were in can >> Yeah, >> I recall correctly, you guys had uh started started working with these prediction markets on some of their shorter time horizon uh you know maybe 5

minute 15 minute you know up and down markets. Uh now getting more into the World Cup coming to New York and and the US as a whole. Um maybe you could just talk us through you know FIFA is not really the official prediction market partner isn't call share or poly market it is ADI predict street. Yes. Maybe you could just talk us through why uh you know how how chain link was able to partner with them and and what you can expect from prediction markets here for the world cup. >> Yeah fantastic. So for starters uh we have a great relationship with ADI. Um we're developing partnerships with them in several ways. They came to us and they said, "Hey, we're launching this

predict street prediction market and we're the official partners of FIFA exclusive partners for prediction market in in general. Um, working with them on deploying a number of different uh product lines for chain link including chain link runtime environment. So we launched that on ADI chain recently and we've been working very closely with them on setting up their uh resolution mechanics. So pulling in data straight from uh the FIFA data provider that they're working with and having that run through the chain link runtime environment to settle their markets on the ADI chain. So you're getting the same cryptographic benefits, decentralized tech that chain link

powers most of DeFi with today, but using it in kind of an oracle as a service platform to do bespoke data delivery. And in this example, we're looking at FIFA for predict street. >> Yeah. And so this is an important proving ground for chain link for sports powered markets, right? It's kind of a new frontier prediction markets as a whole. Why is this so important for Chain Link today to kind of establish its um you know exclusivity here and its dominance in sports markets? >> So, we're really excited about FIFA in specific. This event only happens once every four years. It's a global event.

Just so happens to be, you know, hosted in the United States this year. So, that's pretty exciting for for us being local here in New York City right now. >> And, you know, there's going to be a lot of value at on the line at risk here. Yeah. So when somebody like predict street is building a system like this they understand the amount of val value that's going to show up and with that they take like a security first approach into building hence why you know engaging with us at chain link where security is our utmost principle making sure that that data comes >> on time and accurate.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean on time and accurate are going to be two of the most important characteristics for market resolution in these prediction markets. Um especially when you have you know one thing right after the other could be game starting ending uh can't have you know capital locked up in some of these things. >> Yeah. >> Um >> you know there was recently a contentious uh micro strategy you know are they going to sell Bitcoin in May or June? They ended up selling but you know it didn't get announced until the following month and so there was you know a lot of confusion and contention with how that market was going to resolve via the optimistic oracle that you know polyark used for that market.

Chainlink uses a fundamentally different market resolution mechanism. In this case you described you know predict streets got an official FIFA uh you know data provider. Maybe you can just explain the differences between using an optimistic oracle, how it can run into issues like we saw on that micro strategy selling Bitcoin market and how using this official FIFA data provider can help avoid those issues and unpack some of the differences between these two mechanisms. >> Yeah, of course, great question. So ultimately when you look at optimistic oracles historically and their application they come down to human subjectivity and understanding of whatever rules were prescribed to the market. This is kind of like being the

judge and the jury for something which you can have different perspectives of what the definition of the words meant or what the meaning of the market was. um for chain link which the optimistic oracles also take um large amounts of time for that consensus especially as you said when games are are one on top of another and you want to participate in many games many rounds one after another you want that capital efficiency to come back to you quickly with optimistic oracles you generally see one to two hours for a settlement to occur because you need that human consensus and then you do run into these discrepancies of what was the intention of of the rules itself. Chainlink's approach is we do deterministic market

outputs. Um that's going to be our bread and butter as a starting point. We right now 80% of the volume that occurs in prediction markets has a deterministic data point attached to it. So from our perspective it it's it's quite inefficient to scale with this optimistic oracle setup which requires human inputs. we're it has the risk of different perspectives of what the truth is. Um it also runs on crypto token economics. So um there's tons of instances where folks are using their crypto stack to manipulate the outcome or sway a vote that's in their favor because they have a position in the

market. With uh chain link, we're using deterministic outputs. So with chain link runtime environment, we're able to connect to off-chain data sources. In this case, it's the official league data itself for FIFA. Um so we pull that in and we can also do some data quality checks across this. One mechanism is observing the status of the order book itself. If you look at the order book, this is a collection of traders all coming to what they see as the truth themselves and they're financially incentivized to do so. Um, so you're going to have people that are live watching the game, making their trades.

Historically speaking, you see the winner of the game trend towards 100% and as the game concludes, it's quite obvious that they're at 100% and the other has dramatically dropped down to to 1% or zero. So we take the data provider input, we cross reference that with the order book itself. And then for other markets which were exploring things like weather um we're looking at multidata inputs as well as AI inputs. So doing a multi- LLM aggregation in the decentralized Oracle network to do a triple check against the other data points. So once we see you know one two three matches uh across the data we can

deliver an extremely high confidence data point that we have an accurate uh data for resolution of that market. >> Yeah. You know, there was one instance of a guy in Paris who was getting the the weather by being directly under the airport weather or thermometer and then he would literally have a fan and try to cool it down to get it closer to his to his prediction >> and a blow dryer to try to heat it up. >> A blowj the famous blowj incident. Yeah. So, we're actually working with the team that was specifically concerned about this event. Um there's a there's some good and bads to that approach in that example with the haird dryer. The good was you have a single data point so you know exactly

where that data is coming from in the world and everybody can agree on it. The bad part is single source data points are prone to manipulation, prone to failure. This is like historically speaking you look at chain link how we deliver data to blockchains for pricing. We always aggregate across a multitude of data providers. Y so in something that is fluctuating in real time like the weather or the temperature or the price of Bitcoin, you ask 12 different data providers, what's the price of Bitcoin right now? You're going to get 12 different answers >> and they'll be in a range from dollars to pennies, but still different. Same with weather. So we're taking a different approach. So just using the weather market example, we're aggregating from a multitude of stations

across a certain city. We even have kind of quote unquote perfected the one for New York in specific. >> Nice. >> Um, and then we also cross validate that with some LLM queries making sure that we're not seeing some sort of drastic outlier in the data set itself and then we're able to deliver a more aggregated view of the world. >> Yeah. And so in that in in that kind of evolution of the product suite, Myriad, another kind of uh up andcoming prediction market has also selected chain link to be its exclusive oracle infrastructure for the World Cup and for more sporting events. One ought to think that like these multi-data points and this kind of more evolved view of resolving these markets is leading to a lot of these prediction markets or

anything kind of like similar wanting to have the best resolution for their user. So chain kind of setting the standard here for what is possible from making sure that the users are whole always because at the end of the day what ends up happening is that something like this happens people blame poly market for this uh Michael Sailor thing that their users get pissed they leave the platform they go somewhere else these platforms don't want that they want the the reliability and that's kind of where chain comes in >> yeah they they want the reliability want the security aspects and if we just kind of step back from like what did chain link do or like why are all these people picking chain link Now um well as prediction markets is is growing in the number of platforms and availability and markets out there we saw the same thing

actually happened in DeFi in the early days in 2019 2020 21 where we actually saw a number of quote unquote oracle failures out there because people were trying to run their own oracle or they were using single source data oracles. they were susceptible to um flash loan attacks or their oracle service went down and all of a sudden their entire platform was liquidated and then enter chain link a standard that is highly secure reliable redundant decentralized that's where you kind of see the growth of DeFi you can almost see it hockey stick once chain link's integration first kicked off >> you we're seeing the same thing happen

in the prediction market landscape from my perspective we've seen rudimentary oracles try to tackle this problem. But now that the users are showing up, the volume is showing up, the value is showing up, people need a highly reliable and scalable oracle system. And that's where we're seeing kind of what we did in DeFi. We're doing again here in the prediction market landscape. >> And then why is CRA so important here? Like I I think people still have a bit of an education gap on what that chain link runtime environment provides specifically for prediction markets. Why is that important?

>> Yeah. So CR or chain link runtime environment you can look at it as an oracle as a service. >> Okay. >> So historically chain link has been able to uh build oracle networks for a singular purpose. So what is the price of bitcoin? What is the price of ethereum? We write it to the ethereum blockchain and that's all that decentralized oracle network is doing. This becomes like a very large scaling problem especially on a horizontal level. And if you know you guys wanted to, I don't know, have the weather data or sports data or bespoke pricing data that you have access to, you would have to come to us to help stand up a decentralized oracle network for you.

With Chainlink runtime environment, it's an open-source developer platform where developers can just out of the box open up. They can start plugging in various data points. they can come up with their own consensus mechanisms and they have the same decentralized benefits that we've provided in the DeFi landscape, but now you get to to deploy it yourself. And then of course for the teams that want to do this at kind of like rapid or expert level scale, they work with us directly and we help build and orchestrate those workflows for them on their behalf. So think of this as a developer toolkit that allows you to do far more than just pricing. You can do any type of bespoke data and you can also read from other blockchains itself.

The other really great thing about chain link runtime environment is you write a workflow once and you can write to many chains. So it's a one and done one to end deployment process instead of having to stand up a a singular dawn for every single deployment you're trying to stand up. >> Yep. Yep. And >> no go ahead. >> And and some of these uh you know these prediction markers span across several different chains. I mean, obviously, Polygon has been notable for Poly Market. There's been rumors of Poly Market maybe going to its own chain. K's kind of in a separate league. Then you got Myriad and uh uh Limitless, I think, is on base and a couple of these others.

And so, it seems like this like DeFi had its very much zero to one moment in that 2020 to 2022 era. Feels like prediction markets are kind of smack dab in the middle of that. Y >> but on a much more mainstream level. >> Yes. What do you think the total usability of the chain link CRA or just like the oracle product in general could potentially be if you guys can nail the prediction markets kind of sector? Like how big are we talking from your perspective of like securing the world's markets? And this comes today after the CFTC came out with some guidance around prediction markets specifically no assassination markets, no fighting during sports games markets and several others. So there's clearly we're

entering this mainstream regulatory environment for prediction markets too. What is kind of the vision for you like your view of the scale of this of this sector and how kind of chain link fits in there? >> So if you're looking at the sum total of volume today across prediction markets, I think we're seeing anywhere from like 25 billion to 30 billion some total uh per month. And we roughly slice that data into deterministic and non-deterministic markets. So deterministic markets are what's the price of this asset? Uh did somebody say this uh word? So a mentioned market at a certain time um how many tweets did Elon write? How many cars to Tesla deliver?

These all have known data points out there in the world. What's the what's the weather in New York right now? >> Um when you look at that, that actually represents the lion share of the volume that's being done across these prediction markets today. we're we're we're seeing roughly 80% have these known data points that either um come from an official and singular data point like a league or they come from a multitude of data aggregators that you can pull from. So that's again where we're thinking why inject human subjectivity into this when there's known data and when it's data that needs to get to the blockchain in a secure reliable way because once that data lands on a blockchain a lot of value

gets orchestrated much like in the lending markets the per markets that we power today um they need that system that's going to deliver without failure with high levels of confidence. So then you look at the subjective markets. So we see this is about a floating 20 to 30% of >> the volume and this could be as complex as >> is the straight of Hormuse open today. >> Yeah. >> You know uh which is you know depending on who you ask or which data source you go to you're going to get completely different answers. This is where we've been spending a lot of research and development specifically in the AI sector because we need to take subjective data and put some sort of deterministic layer behind it

>> and if in the future state of prediction markets that the market itself is comfortable with let's say like a chain link AI data layer as the deterministic source to a subjective topic that's where we can go ahead and fill that last 20 to 30% hurdle and and and encompass the entirety of prediction markets >> and those markets can get super esoteric like you mentioned is the straight of four moose open I mean on poly market I think they have is the earth flat >> like they've got >> but these are also the most interesting ones that can have a lot of growth because right now you're right it's like it's like another sports betting platform for a lot of these right or another kind of like uh yeah I mean honestly a lot of sports but like it's those subjective esoteric

>> kind of culture markets that I think could really really explode. >> Yeah, but right now they're accounting for 20 to 30% of the volume. So there is, you know, mostly deterministic, but these are the ones we end up arguing about on Twitter all day. So, you know, they end up >> uh being the most fun for us. I've got a reductive question and then we've got about five minutes left and I think we're going to end off with a fun segment. Um reductive question is, you know, more regulation coming to prediction markets, bullish or bearish. You know, you can kind of make an argument both ways. You know, there's a regulatory regime. you know these things are getting accepted into the regulatory environment on the other hand you know this has kind of been a wild west where we do have very esoteric markets

>> can make an argument one way or the other what what do you think >> so look it's one I think it's inevitable >> what it looks like is TBD and I think it's bullish from the standpoint that more mainstream folks once they see full regulation in place they're going to become comfortable and then it also allows institutions utions that are currently sidelined because of lack of regulatory clarity, they're going to want to hop in and start participating in hedging and diversifying their their asset classes and in something called like information markets. So now you have like your pure financial markets, but now you're actually hedging your book in a finan uh an information market. And then you kind of expand on

that is you you have these very long time frame markets too like who's going to win the presidential election and maybe you think you have an edge. Well, that outcome isn't from from now to then about 2 and a half years from now. If you park a large position there, >> that's a lot of capital locked up into something that you're hedging somewhere else. The next evolution of prediction markets, which will be interesting, is people building financial products on top of them. So you can take that position and borrow against it. Now you still have exposure on top prediction markets.

>> Yeah. And then you're going to go expand that and I think that's where >> when we see the regulatory clarity and we see the institutional adoption, institutions are really going to lean into this aspect which I find exciting. >> So the CFTC has proposed these new market rules as of today that are allowing most sports contracts. So that's going to stay the same. Previously in the Biden administration, they they kind of restricted anything to do with violence, terrorism, anything like this. They they pulled that back recently in the last like year or two, but new rules now about very specific markets towards assassinations, terrorism, violence. But you can still have a you can't have a market will the Islamic regime attack um Israel, but you

can have a a market that is something like more about will they increase the TSA screening in airports in this time. >> So like there's kind of interesting dichotomy happening right now. Yeah, it's very interesting to see play out. I'm excited to watch it unfold and see how the market matures across the board. >> The the regulators have their work cut out for them because they're this is such a blurry line and we can just >> especially where I think it is inevitable some of these prediction market platforms end up in a place where they let maybe community suggested markets or you know permissionless market listings. This is what this kind of been the golden goose. This is what everyone has for a long time, but there

is very technical complications with it like fragmented liquidity if you end up with duplicate markets and then there's obviously regulatory concerns if anyone can create their own market. >> Yeah. >> Um so long road ahead. >> Sure. >> Well, I want to play a little game in this segment called >> prediction plays. >> Okay. >> Just made that up, but you're the first one to play it. >> All right. >> World Cup is starting. Do you watch much soccer? Uh I've kind of were picking up some uh Premier League last year, but that's kind of start starts and stops then unfortunately.

>> There we go. Okay. Well, uh ADI predict street, the official predictions market partner of FIFA World Cup has adopted Chain Link. So, we're going to play a little prediction market predictor with Will uh uh representing Chainlink here. First one I got to ask you about United States versus Paraguay. It's happening Friday night 900 pm. [laughter] >> I mean just me. >> I mean I'm just fired up here. What do we got? Who who who you got? United States vers Paraguay. >> I mean look I don't know how good either one of those teams are. But [laughter] being a a guy from the United States, I'm I'm going to be put placing my chips on on the home team.

>> I think they got that one. I think I think I think the US has one. >> I think so too. coming in at about 50% chance of winning, 29% 30% chance of the draw. >> Win. >> Well, I mean, >> that's that's the next one. Who's going to win the whole thing? >> Again, not very studied in the subject, but I I hear some rumors that the Spain team's pretty good. >> And I would imagine uh it sounds like most of the the team from France is comes from this um very well-known PSG league. Yes. >> Um PSG team. So, sounds like they'll probably have a pretty stacked team as well. Man, you >> they always do. Germany and and and England have a really good chance as well. Someone in the chat says way too soon to pick a winner. Injuries will be

the determining factor. It probably won't be a European team. >> Spain and France leading right now, both at 16% chance of winning. Germany further down the list at about 5%. Uh England and Portugal up there as well. >> Says Paraguay will beat the will beat the USA. Thanks, man. >> Sick, dude. You're a vibe, man. You're a vibe. Thanks for joining, man. First first game tomorrow is Mexico vers South Africa. Will, we know you're an expert on this. >> All right. [laughter] >> First game tomorrow, uh 3 p.m. Uh they're going to kick off World Cup.

Mexico, South Africa. Who you got? >> I'm going with the the Western Hemisphere. So, we're going Mexico. >> Here we go. Will, thanks for coming on today, man. Congratulations on the on the growth here because I think it is a burgeoning market that >> there needs to be a winner of and there needs to be consistency in the outcomes. >> Yeah. >> Um and I think you know you you laid out a pretty good reasoning for the optimistic optimistic Oracle versus kind of the CR setup and the trade-offs there as well as just generally how you're thinking about the broader space. appreciate your time as always with >> Yeah. Thank you guys. And keep your eyes out cuz there's going to be some big news coming very soon across the prediction market landscape and with with chain link attached to it.

>> Wow. That's that's bullish. You're leaving us leaving us on a cliffhanger here. I want to ask more. We got [laughter] >> this guy just does not like Will. He's just fading every one of Will's takes, man. This guy. Guys, [snorts] we'll be right back. Thank you for rocking with us. We're going to close out the show here in the next 5 10 minutes. Stick around. Well, we'll be right back. >> All right, go next. >> Let's go next [laughter] and six. [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

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direction that we needed it to solo looks ready for 50s VV DV down 14% today. Zcash kind of holding up amidst its craziness. Near kind of holding up as well. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. Oh man. One thing that I think is sick, guys, that you guys can check out, I'm going to pull up on the screen. You guys can look at the hyperlquid yield and the amount of revenue that they're going to make from the Coinbase stablecoin deal on this website.

HL.co/stables. Rob, if we're in a 4 and a half interest, four and a half percentage interest rate environment, we're literally going to zero. But at least Hyperlink is making $241,000 a year from it. Where we want to get to and where we're at right now is about that 3 to three and a half three to 3.25 25% mark. You can see 174,000 uh right now is where we're about where we're at. 160 to 174,000 annualized basis from this uh 6 billion or so on. So, got to get excited about something in this market right now. All right. I mean, look guys, I don't know what, two weeks ago, we were like jumping out of our chair. What happened? How did it

happen so fast? And I was literally jumping out of my chair. We had capital flows on. We had capital flows on telling us gamma squeeze right here. That is a Christmas tree. That is a Christmas tree. That's a Christmas tree. >> This thing. Oh goodness. Another Christmas tree. So yeah. Um, what's your take, Rob? What's going on out there? Um S&P down question mark I think. So >> where are we buying?

>> Yeah. I mean >> well jeez >> we're probably going to get capitulation. >> Probably going to get some apathy. >> And you know what's crazy? Like this is like a cause for concern for like traditional investors. And this is like a not even a 10% move. It's like a 4% move. Like what? Like, dude, >> that the S&P. >> Yeah. >> Going back to like last year, maybe this year. >> O. >> Oh, boy. >> These things don't look great. >> That thing doesn't look too great.

>> I mean, look, we're going to be fine, guys. Just hang on to >> I think we're going to get a bounce. I think as we move lower, bounces are going to get uh more significant. >> You think? Well, I think you know moves down are still significant as well, but I do think that you know the market is selling off. At least the rumor theory thesis out there, the narrative is that it's selling off because SpaceX needs money. So, we're seeing move moves down, but I think SpaceX is going to come out on Friday and it's actually going to go up and then the market's going to go up and then people are going to be like, "Oh my gosh, it's okay. We're we're back. We're so back." And we're going to get a

little a little bounce, a little rally probably like, you know, SpaceX forward is going to do well, but we're still we're not going to get enough of a rally to fund enough support for anthropic and open AAI. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think we are in this uh I wouldn't call it a macrobear market but I would call it a liquidity crunch for assets in general with so much supply coming onto the market uh over the coming weeks and months that we are going to need to take time in order to build up enough

liquidity uh to support these these markets. And we're in an environment where like inflation came up came came in today right as estimated but it was at 4.2% which is high >> and so obviously you know the remember the uh remember the inflation target for the Fed is around 2%. So, especially with labor numbers, you know, where they are, the Fed should raise rates, which is going to make liquidity that much harder to come by, which is going to make funding these IPOs that much harder.

And so, it doesn't bode well for these IPOs. >> Dude, if we can get soul around like 35 to 45, oh, that would be sick. So, I I just think structurally there's not much that we can do here. >> Yeah. I mean, you can just be patient. We're in the end of the crypto bear. >> Exactly. >> We're in the end of the crypto bear. We're in the end of the crypto bear. >> We're in the end of the crypto bear. We are in the end of the crypto bear. We're the end of the crypto bear. We're in the end of the crypto bear. We're in the end of the crypto bear. We're in the end of the crypto bear. We are in the end of the crypto bear. We're in the end of the crypto bear.

Great show today, guys. Great, great, great show. Fun show. I know things are down. I know things are down, >> but we're not going anywhere. >> We're not even the end of the crypto bear. We're in the beginning of the crypto spring. According to Tom Lee, >> we're in the end of the crypto bear, guys. >> The beginning, >> guys. We are in the end of the crypto bear. It is coming. The end is near. It is far, far closer than what it's been. Every day that passes by is a day until we're closer to the end of it. And yeah, might be a little bit of a slow summer, okay? We just got to relax. Have some patience. Have some patience. And that is what we're going to do. We're going to be here tomorrow. We're going to be here the next day. We're going to be

there on Monday. And it's we're not going anywhere. We're going to we're going to buy these things and we're going to sell higher and it's going to happen. So, >> shout out tweeting 46 minutes ago. Getting ready for the intern entry. Sub $50 for hype. [cheering] Thesis hasn't changed though. Hype to triple digits. >> I agree. >> Ton, I hope you feel better at home. I hope $50 entry on hype. >> Pre-ordained.

Bitcoin to 250,000 is pre-ordained. >> Hype in Catrini research was the top. >> Yeah, pretty much. >> The local top. No, but that's perfect cuz like his people watching or reading it are not like our people. They're like reading it now being like, "Oh, okay, cool." So, Catrini is bullish. We should be bullish, too. They're not like Catrini subscribers aren't like buying that day and then selling the following day. I mean, not all a lot of them are more like larger macro traders that are going to look to Venice and hype and be like, "Damn, this is a good opportunity." I and look the the ones with relative strength in the last couple of weeks are the ones that are

going to outperform when the market returns. >> I agree. >> So >> So I'm looking for entries. I'm looking for entries on hype probably around 50. Bitcoin in the 40s. >> Wow. >> I think Bitcoin in the 40s. >> Bitcoin between 35 45. >> You think Bitcoin in the 30s? >> Uh I don't know. I don't know. I would hope not. 35 would be the absolute lowest, but I don't see it getting there. >> I don't see it either. I think I think once we dip below 50 on Bitcoin, I think we're going to get some really intense buying. I think people are going to say Bitcoin under 50, that sounds cheap.

>> Yeah. >> And I think they're going to come in and they're going to buy. >> Guys, guys, we're not going anywhere. We're going to buy and we're going to hold and we're going to be we're going to zoom out and it's going to be beautiful and it's going to We're not going anywhere. We'll be here in Q3. We'll be here in Q4. We'll be here in Q1 next year. You guys will be with us. So, thank you. Thank you for being with us. You're watching the rollup live from the tokenization tower, the nest in the financial capital of the world. It is Wednesday, June 10th. Go Nicks. Go smart investors with longer time frames. >> We're going to the moon, guys. One day at a time with you. Learn from us. Learn with us.

>> Same place. Educate yourself in the bear so that you outperform in the bull. >> Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for watching the rollup. W's in the chat. Much love. Go Nicks. We'll see you tomorrow. >> Go Knicks. [music] [music] >> [music] [music]

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