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[music] [music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Thank you.

Lord, [music] we'll see you around the timeline. [music] Feels good to be back. I think the rollup [music] is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts [music and singing] at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library every day potentially multi-chain deployments. Here we are at day one here. I'm testing from [music] base.

[music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. [music] >> He said it. He finally said it. So bullish. >> It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish.

[music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] Heat. Heat.

>> [music] >> A rollup [music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of [music] life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup.

[music] >> [music] [music] [music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the [music] golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go.

>> Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. Yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo. Happy Tuesday, man. Oh man. What is going on out there, guys? We're going to talk about it. We're We're gonna talk about it. We're going to figure it out. We're going to get a bounce right now. The Bitcoin not going to doom thesis is not looking great. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live here from the tokenization tower, the Nest broadcasting live from the financial capital of the world. You're watching the rollup. Today is June 30th, Tuesday. Bit of a bloody Tuesday in some

markets, bit of a giga giga green Tuesday in others. Uh, as always, we are here at the tokenization tower powered by our friends at Plume and their Nest Vault product. Check out plume.org to learn more about what they're doing building infrastructure for the future of onchain asset management. Guys, what is going on? We got a great show today. We got we're we're in the tower. We got markets and weather live from New York. Per usual, another beautiful but hot day. We got virtual bacon Dennis. He's a pretty large crypto trader in terms of his audience on YouTube and uh X and has been very prominent in the markets for I think like almost 10 years. Uh and then

we got Veta and Metamas talking about institutional vaults and more. Again guys, stable coins, per tokenization, those are it. Those are the big three. We had an open USD announcement today powered by Visa, Mastercard, Discover, tons of companies. Circle stocks down 10% on the news. Meanwhile, Lighter is pushing for $2. It's very close to that $2 mark. Um, market's sniffing something out there clearly. Uh, I think, you know, people see Hyperlid and then they see Lighter as a chance to buy into the next hype really, really early, really, really cheap. So, that's kind of what's happening there. Uh, we're going to get into the markets. We're going to get into the weather. We're going to get

into more. As always, our topics are powered by our friends at Treasure. Use code rollup10 at treasure.io io to get a free treasure. Sorry, not a free treasure, a discounted treasure. Uh, secure your coins, secure your keys. Let's get into the show, guys. We had a wild, wild day in the market. I think the one thing that is working, though, is that strategy is not blowing up. Stretch is not blowing up. I know many of us thought maybe he was going to get in trouble, but I think we're doing all right there. Let's talk about it. Before we do, let me tell you about FRA. Building infrastructure is the future of onchain money, open, stable, borderless. For more information to start using the future of digital money today, visit frack.com.

Guys, it is 82 degrees. It is sunny. It is a beautiful, beautiful, lovely day in New York City today. Um, it is the home of finance. >> We've got finance happening here. We've got digital finance. We've got digital credit. We've got Sailor tweeting that he's just going to be strengthening all three positions. But we talked about it yesterday. I don't know if he's going to be able to strengthen and keep all three of his positions where he wants them. To be determined. As always, our weather is powered by our friends at Relay. Visit relay.link to learn more about this beautiful New York summer day. Let's keep it rolling into the next segment.

Powered by our friends at Dinari. Building infrastructure for tokenized US [screaming] equities and bringing real world stocks on chain. Trade SpaceX on Hyperlquid spot today on Dinari. right now on Hyperlid. Guys, I know what we're thinking. Bitcoin's at 58. >> Andy promised me that we're not going to go to the Goolag immediately, but we have a monthly close today and it looks like we're going to the Goolag. EAD 1565, Soul 73, uh Chamberling 7.15, Near 1.79, Ansom's Memecoin is trading at like $150 million market cap.

>> Can't help but think we might have to get punished for that. >> Unfortunately, I just can't help but think we might get pun get punished for TJR dumping his memecoin to buy Salon or to buy Anom's memecoin. I don't know. We'll see. Guys, my take still stands. I mean, yeah, it doesn't look great. Doesn't look great. I think our coins actually don't look that bad. Uh, lighter obviously looks amazing. Uh, 1.94 hype at 64.3. A little bit of a pullback from yesterday's move. About 50% of yesterday's move has been retraced. We'll see how we close. I think any close above 65 on hype is continues to be super bullish.

And I mean, Bitcoin is just so we're at So, we're at the monthly close today. And I mean, I can't lie, it's pretty bad. I mean, it's about as bad as it could possibly get. In order to save this thing, we really got to get this thing back up above 59, but I don't really think that's going to happen. I don't see any strength down here at these levels. They're kind of being accepted. So, there's probably a lower level that we're going to be able to uh kind of have a stronger, you know, bounce from. But until we get there, I don't know. I still don't think this is going to get I still don't think this is going to get that bad, but yeah, right now it's looking like it's looking

like it's looking like we're in for a hell of a monthly close. SMH markets look cooked. Yeah, they do. Right now, stocks are holding firm, though. Oil's cooling off. NASDAQ's up, looking to break new all-time highs. Uh [snorts] S&P futures are up. Um so, this continues to just be a crypto thing, a cryptospecific weakness. And we haven't really seen stock weakness yet. We're going to get into more of it. Let's let's get into the news though. Let me tell you about Near. Your home for building, discovering onchain applications. One account, no borders, your financial life on chain.

Near.com is your place to be. Guys, tokenization, stable coins, perbs. As we continue to push these three core camps of this asset class, we continue to see massive growth. We continue to see uh the rise of tokenization companies. So in this case, securitize is partnering basically with a business combination with cantor equity partners and this is going to close tomorrow. So tomorrow security eyes should have this transaction done and then th Thursday they will begin trading on the NYC ticker SZ the first tokenization pure play to be

listed on a public market for large institutional investors to buy. It's pretty significant to me. Um, we saw Larry Frink yesterday on the show talking about how tokenization is such an important thing for the entire future of fin of the financial system, trading equities, bonds, real estate, stocks. And so this is the first way for largecale institutional institutional investors to get direct exposure to tokenization on a public stock.

So, securityize is launching on Thursday and it is under the ticker SECZ. Uh, they have more than $4 billion of tokenized assets and this is the first pure play for tokenization on the market. Am I buying it day one? H, I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think I'm buying a day one. I think I'm going to watch what happens.

I think the Can I think the Cantor equity partners asset though um is pumping. Yeah, it's pumped a lot. So, they made this announcement. So, last Friday was trading at 10. Today, it's trading at 13. Um they made this an announcement. I think it must have been this tweet was yesterday. Stock traded up 20%. It's up 3% today. So, yeah, there's clearly some demand for this and it's I just don't know if I'm buying it right now. I don't I don't think I am. I don't think I'm buying it the first day.

I think I'm going to let it settle, see what happens. But I think if you want equity exposure to tokenization, I feel like securitize is a pretty good option. wait until the initial sell, then buy the dips. That's kind of what I think is going to happen. I think they're going to probably sell off the first day or two and then I think they're going to probably have a nice move, but I think it's probably just going to trade synonymously to Bitcoin. Like a lot of these crypto companies just kind of follow Bitcoin or Coinbase or whatever. I think this one will probably do the same, but I bet they have some surprises for us in the future. So, that's my take on Securitize. I think it's amazing amazing move for them and um it's the first

tokenization company really publicly available to buy. So I think it's meaningful. All right, let's keep it rolling. Um Dean Agimman, a friend of mine put this tweet out. How to value a token. owner earnings minus reta equals retained revenue minus emissions minus operating cost. And so the reason why I wanted to talk about this tweet was because I feel like it's very very relevant to how we have been thinking about on the show investing in this asset class because we're not really buying like that many tokens right now. We're

not we don't really own a lot of tokens right now. We own a very select few. And why do we own a very select few? We own a very select few because we think similarly. So owner earnings effectively means how much does the token holder how much value does a token holder retain from this individual token. And so this formula is the amount of revenue generating by the project. So retained revenue by the project minus the emissions. So minus the new token inflation because that does count as an expense minus the team's operating costs. And so high protocol revenue can look a lot a

lot like a very very sexy token to buy, but if they don't retain a lot of the revenue to the token holders and they don't have relatively stable emissions and low operating costs, you're actually not buying something that is profitable. And like that's the era that we're in. We are fully in the era of thinking about valuing tokens based on formulas like this. I don't know if this is the exact end all be all, but I do like that Dean is, you know, essentially saying that the protocol revenue should be translated into owner earnings. And I think that's how we're thinking about it

too, right? like we we are bullish on Hyperlquid, we're bullish on Lighter, on Aerrome, on these tokens that have this formula more or less down to a T. And so, like, as we continue on this show, guys, like that's not going to change. Like, we're not going out there and buying narrative tokens. Like we're looking for actual setups that economically speaking give us upside in a way that is more more than just oh you know this this is a good narrative oh they make some money like no I think the future of this space is really firmly heading towards this and that's why

we're bullish Hyperlid lighter a drrome and many others but there's not that many others and I think this is important guys don't let yourselves get caught up into um assets in crypto that don't follow a formula that is similar to this. Don't let yourself get offsides on tokens that do not generate you value as a token holder. It's just not worth holding. So, I think Dean's right here. Whether or not his exact formula is correct, I think we're going to continue to follow by this playbook on the show and in our portfolio. And I, you know, highly recommend that you guys do as well. Let's keep it rolling into our next news. Before we do, let me tell you

about Infinifi building DeFi infrastructure for simpler access to onchain yield, higher yields, no leverage. Visit infinifi.xyz to learn more. All right, guys. Vich Gar shares what's broken in the mortgage process and how AI can fix it. So, this guy works for a company called Better Mortgage who's bringing some uh mortgage kind of infrastructure onchain and using AI. I think it's pretty interesting. I saw his clip and I thought it was pretty cool. Um, so Jason's definitely got one too many buttons down. I like it though. Summertime in New York. Um, that is a vibe. Uh, and this guy's full suit and handkerchief. So, you know he's you know he's legit, right? That's how it works, right guys? All right, let's play this

clip. >> What is fundamentally broken in the mortgage process that So, we walk through the what, you know, what blockchain solves. What does AI solve here? >> More on the underwriting side. What AI solves is the uniform application of the rules. >> Yeah. >> Uh minus the expert labor and the biases and lack of knowledge of the expert labor. >> And the expert labor layer in mortgage is extremely expensive. Average mortgage underwriter gets paid $210,000. There's no way that all of them remember all 45 investors guidelines of 800 pages. Do you I mean like that would be like remembering the encyclopedia bratannica and you know like how many humans remember the encyclopedia bratannica

front to back? No way. So the AI is able to do that and so therefore it improves the approval rate. >> The AI is able to recommend and do math in its head instantly. So it tells you hey if you pay off this loan this loan this loan it'll increase your credit score which will lower your mortgage rate by the same amount as the loan you just paid off. So that should be really great. You should do that. Oh, and then the last thing is unlike most humans, the AI will say, "I can just do it for you. Just tell me yes." Yeah. And so I think that's the the value of the implementation of AI is really >> um enabling consumers to have access to the top 1% of the sales people, processors,

underwriters, and their skills. >> I'll tell you what, guys. But for the other 99% of Americans that don't have taxes. >> Yeah. >> I'll tell you what access to advice and >> wish I had AI to tell me wish I had AI to tell me not to buy the house in 2022 and rather buy Nvidia stock. Maybe Vishal Gar could uh illuminate to me whether or not we should even be buying properties as investments in today's world. Perhaps they perhaps we should. Perhaps we should. But man, oh man, man, oh man, do I feel like do I feel like I messed up that one.

>> So, look, I think he's right, though. And and I think this goes across tons of other um industries where you have like human brain decision-m and you can just plug in really good LM with the you know latest greatest models and there's a lot of these replicatable skills that you know we can kind of just scale in through through AI. The American dream is no longer owning a home. The new American dream is owning assets. Dude, I agree. And I also agree new type that it's owning assets that are not a headache like owning bitcoin putting it in your um you know your kraken or in your ledger or treasure or

in your whatever it is man it's like no effort or just like te's earning yield no effort like it's it's owning assets and it's also owning assets that don't give you a headache. All right, guys. Let's keep it rolling into uh our next one here. We got Coin Bureau uh Anom Airrops being dumped. So, apparently Anom air dropped 67 million Anom tokens to 704 wallets because he had to give the trenches a sty since Pump refuses to.

And apparently the majority of those tokens went to just seven wallets and they already dumped the majority of those for over a million dollars. >> Embarrassing. >> So the question is guys, did Anom sell send the tokens to himself to sell them himself? And honestly, I'm gonna take Anom's side and say no. I'm gonna say I don't think he sent them to himself to different wallets and sold them. I'm going to take the side that he's he's actually just like fully trying to revive the trenches and I I

think I think extracting another million. I don't know if that would really move the needle for the guy to be honest. So, I'm going to go with the side that yes, those tokens got dumped, but maybe they were his friends. Maybe they were just random people who held a lot of the token. I don't know. But I did see this and be like, "Wow." Like, so you can launch somebody launched a token for you, then you get sent to you get 60% of the supply sent to you and then you send it to new wallets. Say it's, you know, onchain. It looks like it's different wallet, but it could just be a new wallet or a wallet

that is yours or an old wallet. and then you get to keep the money and everyone thinks it was an airdrop. I don't think that that happened though and I think people are saying it did. The thing is trading at 150 million. This feels like in 2023 when Ben tried Ben tried to stimulate the markets with this SCOP token. You remember that? Yeah, I do remember that. That did not work. I also feel you new type. Like I don't I don't know if this is like going to work, but it's fun to watch. I just feel like we're gonna have to pay we're going to have to pay for it. I think we're gonna have to pay for it by like new lows.

Unfortunately, that's like the downside here is if this all blows up, we're going to have to pay for it with new lows. Anoms or bank sold. I don't know, man. Their show on Thursday is going to be insane, though. Their show on Thursday is going to be wild. Anoms tweets right now, he tweets and like within minutes he's got like a thousand likes on his tweets. It's unreal. Wow, >> it's unreal. It's like like let's see what the last tweet was. Lol. Love you too. Oh my gosh.

People in like some African country are posted a photo saying we love Anthem the Black Bull. God bless you. Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. There's a lot going on in Salana land right now. I'll tell you that. Guys, let's not spend any more time on it. Um, let's keep it rolling into the next piece. Before we do, let me tell you about our partner, Lei, powering the future of crosschain swaps, universal market for digital assets, bridging routing across the onchain economy. To explore smoother crosschain execution, visit leafi or use jumper.exchange.

All right, guys. So in the midst of the O open USD announcement today, we have a uh innov actual push back from Austin Campbell about stable coins and um yeah this guy's been pretty bearish stable coins like because of their centralized control, centralized asset issuance and so he's arguing that stable coin reserve innovation is actually more risky than it is in innovation. He points this terra Celsius iron and they, you know, they think about how the AI data center backstable coin, STRC backstable coin will explode. They'll all die. Let's see

what he says. I think he's got a fair point, but I also think he's just like very very bearish on these things. But let's see. >> I would say in stable coins, you're actually promising people stability, and so your job is to avoid risk at all costs if you know what you're doing. And in fact, like one piece of advice I give people is financial innovation in stable coins is usually a red flag, right? Like the innovation should be in the technology, not the reserves. If you're innovating in the reserves, it's probably not actually stable. Um, >> thank you Celsius. >> I mean, Celsius, Terraform Labs, iron, if anybody remembers that thing before Tara was there, like there's a long history of experimentation.

>> Terara never pretended they had any real asset anywhere. >> Correct. And and by the way, for those of you listening at home, in the current era, the AI data center debt backed stable coin and the STRCbacked stable coin will explode, right? On a long enough timeline, those will die. I would say in stable coins, you're actually pro. >> Wow. So, we're just so we're just fully shorting USDA then. That's what Austin is saying. He's basically saying full port short USDA not going to work out and stretch is cooked. I am once again taking the other side of the consensus and stretches at 83 guys. Honestly, I think we're very close

to having our bull thesis happen. Like remember our bull thesis for the short-term like summer bounce is stretched back to like 90 92 93 94. We're at 84 right now and it's bouncing and and it looks somewhat strong. If if stretch gets back to 87 88 89 I think Bitcoin is going to pop. Like I think I think again like I keep saying this like the risks here are skew stretch is cook just a dead cap bounce but like sure like you can argue that new type

but I feel like like the thesis is just getting stretched to $90. Like that's all that we're looking for. Stretch back to like 90 92. Doesn't need to get back to 100. But like just that move back into the 90s just calming the market down for a second. Like I really think that's the bull thesis right now for the whole market. Isn't that silly? Isn't that silly that that's the timeline that Sailor's created for us? that the bull thesis right now is that stretch doesn't go to zero and instead just trades within 10 to 12% of the peg like new you might be right like you might be right that it is just a dead cap bounce but even if we get to like the low 90s I

think that might be enough to push us back to 100 like I think on any move actually flood had a really good tweet about this let me let me pull it up because it it really just like I agree completely he says says, um, "Sailor sells Bitcoin, shores up cash, repurchases STRC to restore confidence. Bitcoin rallies due to sailor selling overhang removed the trade. Buy STRC plus long BTC when you think the spot selling's done. STRC returning to gold range aggressively should be the signal."

And so like maybe this has been Sailor selling for the last bit and maybe he's going to bid stretch. I'm telling you at 83 it looks miles and miles better than what it did at last week on the way down. So the problem is we only have three more days of the trading. Like we only have three more trading days this week. The bottom is Michael Sailor gets liquidated. Imagine all institutions would love to buy Bitcoin at distress levels. Nah. Fading that.

Sailor's not getting liquidated, man. He's not going to get liquidated. All right, guys. Let's keep it rolling into uh this I think what is the biggest news of the entire day. Uh, OpenUSD is announced a new stable coin for global money movement. It's designed for global payments rem and internet native commerce. Uh, partners can earn a portion of reserve yield after a small platform fee and an independent board will oversee the stablecoin rather than a single controlling company. There's uh more than 140 partners here. uh Visa, Stripe, Mastercard, Black Rockck, Coinbase are supporting this initiative ahead of its planned launch later this year. I believe about a couple months

from now, maybe half a year from now, towards the end of the year. Um, Zack Abrams is from Bridge. He is the founding CEO of Open Standard. He says that they are thrilled to bring together over 140 businesses to launch OpenUSD. It's a stable coin built for the internet economy designed by the businesses growing it. If you scroll down here, you'll see all the businesses. It's pretty insane. Visa, Stripe, Mastercard, American Express, Discover Fiser Aiden Cloudfare Corp Jack Henry, Clara, Firm, Ramp, One Pay, Bex Czecha.com Wex PayP Western Union, Moneygram, World Line, Felix, Black Rockck, BNY, Standard Charter, Bank of Australia, BVA.

I mean, this is insane. >> Wow. >> I mean, Circle is down 10 plus percent. Circle stock is down 10 plus percent on this news. It's down 15% on the news. And you know what um you know what uh Tether CEO says? You know what he tweets? This guy's such a Chad. The guy is such a Chad. You know what he tweeted? He goes, "Welcome OSD. Player two has entered the game."

Like come on. Come on. So this is like this is huge guys. We are underestimating how big stable coins tokenization and pers are going to be. We are underestimating by an order of magnitude. These guys are going to print billions and billions and billions of dollars of this stable coin in the next 12 months. 12 to 18 months. This thing's going to be this thing's going to be massive. Maybe it's not going to be nearly as big as the big ones, right? But I wouldn't be surprised if this thing gets to 10 billion, 20 billion, 30 billion. If this is real, like if this is as deep of ties as these partners and kind of announcements, you know, says, I I wouldn't be surprised

this becomes the number three stable coin. And I also wouldn't be surprised if this leads to more like this type of activity is going to lead to more and more and more of this same activity happening. And I know here's the rebuttal. The rebuttal is this has happened before. The rebuttal is we've seen this before. Visa announced some stable coin consortium in 2026. Nothing new. But I think it is new guys. I think it is. And so if you keep scrolling down there's I mean there's more and more partners. I mean this is huge. Coinbase, Tempo Bybit Salana OKX Ripple Crypto.com Fireblocks Gemini MetaMask, A like it's just the list goes

on. It's absolutely massive. It's absolutely massive. So, yeah. I mean, guys, I think I think we're underestimating how big this is all going to get. I think we're completely underestimating how big this is all going to get. I think we are. And I think this is really important. And I think it's really cool, too, just to see this happening. So, that's my take here on the stable coin side on OpenUSD. I thought this was a massive announcement. I got really excited about it. I want to see more and more of this. You know what I also want to see, ladies and gentlemen? Hyper retesting 667 on the show today.

The assumption is that these stable coins will be back one for one, right? Yes, that is the assumption. Buy US dollars. Yes. Stretch stretch back to 85 87 and I'm telling you guys, it's a party. Lighter's at $2. Lighter's at $2. Lighter's at $2. Just Just hit $2. >> Lighter just hit $2, guys. Guys, we're doing We are crushing it right now.

[music] >> We're nailing it. >> Like, we are nailing it. [music] >> How long have we been talking about lighting? Man, >> man. $2 lighter. Honestly, I don't think it takes any material flows from Hyperlid, but I think that I think that it makes some noise. I think people start to really make valuation comparisons.

>> That's what I was telling you guys yesterday. I was like, they're going to see this thing break $2 and they're going to be like, "Oh, so I can buy Hyperlquid for Checkex Notes $500 million market cap." Okay. Love the soundboard guy. Yeah. Yeah. >> W's in the chat. >> Bronnie James, $2 million contract guaranteed. Lighter $2 hours later. Edward, we were waiting for you, bro. We were waiting for you. We knew you were going to be euphoric today. You're the biggest lighter bull in this entire chat. You've been bullish the whole time. We've been just ripping hyperl and you're like, "Yo, lighter, lighter." You still got to show us that dashboard.

Wedd wed. We got to get a portfolio tracker and have it displayed on stream. Yeah, I'm down, man. That would be great. Just something for us, you know? I feel like we're all in the same thing, you know? Like we're in the same thing. We're sharing the same thesises. We're adapting to the market. And we've been right. We've we've mostly avoided draw down, which I think is like the most important thing, guys. Like right now, what we've done the last couple weeks together is we've avoided draw down. And like that's super important. All right, guys. Let's get into the daily equity segment powered by our friends at dinari um and talk about what's happening in the Chinese AI world.

China will crash the US stock market this year. They're dumping soda open- source models on the US nearly as good as the Frontier Labs basically free. Nobody can refuse cutting a $und00 million AI bill down to 5 million once that deal is on the table for everyone. Anthropic and O Open AI can't justify their prices or their valuations. The bubble isn't AI. It's the price of AI and it's about to pop. Wow, what a take. Let's hear the video. >> China is starting to operate a AI dumping, offering to the market better and better and better models that are pretty close to the US models, open source, so pretty much free and that might create a huge crash in the stock

market. There will be an infinite demand for AI, but there won't be an infinite number of demand for AI at those high costs. If someone tells me I can reduce this $500 million bill to a $5 million bill, it would be irresponsible not to take that deal and that deal is going to be available on the market. And when that's done, it's going to be very difficult for Antropic and Open Eye to justify charging such high prices for >> China is starting to man. I mean, this is crazy. I mean, this is why the anthropic CEO went on a podcast, I think it was yesterday, the day before, and he basically said like open AI or sorry, open source AI is dangerous. He said that it's very dangerous. He said don't trust open source AI. It's very dangerous. Don't use it. Don't it's on a

very dangerous path. The question is like is he guarding his revenues? Is he guarding his moat? Is he really worried about open source AI being dangerous because of you because you can't set the model weights in the same centralized way that you can on a frontier model like anthropic or is he worried about the economic underpinning of the pricing of anthropic and open eye that has been set by the market when these open source models are 98% as good for 5% of the cost. What is that going to do to the to all the semiconductor trade? All of the AI trade, all of the open open AI anthropic IPOs.

That's the question. That's the question. We shall see. That's been our daily equity powered by our friends at dinari, the leading tokenized equities platform for actual real redeemable ownership on chain of tokenized equities. Guys, let's keep it rolling into more tokenization news here from CoinDesk. Centrifuge. New York Life's $87 billion asset arm launches its first tokenized fund, a high-year corporate bond strategy built with centrifuge, allowing investors to subscribe and redeem with USDC. Wow.

Lighter team just announced permanent burns on buybacks. Wow, that's bullish. >> Wow, >> that's super cool. That's really cool. They just tweeted or that's probably why it just shot up to $2. Yeah, that is I can't believe circle's down 15% on that open USD news. Guys, look guys, I just wanted to bring this up because I thought it was great. I thought it was I thought it was just a sign of the times as to how fast tokenization is happening and how big this is going to be and how early we still are. And I'm just going to continue to remind you guys that this is going to be the core thesis that we

build our entire portfolio around for the next bull. It's okay tokenization's happening. How do we position for the tokenization growth and like what protocols, what blockchains, what exchanges, what perexes, what dexes, what lending markets, who is going to dominate this tokenized asset wave. That's what we're formulating our entire portfolio on going forward. GMGM Greg. Yes, there was a tweet. I got the rollup portfolio, thread guy portfolio. Who's another kingmaker for portfolio? I don't know, man. I don't know.

Honestly, Flood has been the main Flood has been the main portfolio guy to follow with his hype call, more or less, but he obviously doesn't stream. Um, let's see this lighter tweet and then let's get into this next one. Tokconomics update. Oh, there's a lighter tokconomics update. Cool. Share an update on buybacks. They will be permanently used to reduce the lit supply through burns. I like it.

I don't love burns. I really don't love burns. Um, I really don't love burns. I think it's a waste of money, but I like that it's we know that you guys want to know where these tokens are going to go and so I'm telling you guys these tokens are not going to go back on the market. I like that part about it. I like that part about it. All right, guys. Let's get into the last thing before we get virtual baking up. Our first guest of the show, um, Plume launches a FALX structured credit facility uh, live with Falcon Global. Uh so it is a structured credit facility on Nest credit gives onchain investors access to institutional prime brokerage lending strategies. Uh partnered up with M11

credit and PTO credits. They are uh supporting this facility through professionally managed lending portfolios. Uh it's designed to grow toward roughly $1 billion in capacity. Uh this launch advances Plume goal of bringing institutional credit on chain. Let's play this quick video here. So obviously Plume and and Falcon X joining forces here. Um and look guys, I mean tokenization is moving beyond simple assets into more complex onchain credit strategies. And I think it's super bullish. I think it's something that we want to have open institutional assets accessible for anyone for anybody in the market who wants to have. And so I think that's like kind of where we're

headed. That's what this trend is showing. That's what Plume is showing here with Falcon X. And basically now anyone can come in and be a part of institutional grade lending strategies on chain and you got to love to see that. You got to be excited about that. So grass plume congrats to Falcon X man. The SYN shilling is unconscionable. Yeah. I I'm staying away from that buddy. You guys know us. You guys know us. We're not chasing narrative games in this market. If you don't have revenue, if you don't have good buybacks, if you don't have good tokconomics, we're not even investing in it. We're not even looking at it right now at least. That will change. That'll change. But I'm not

even touching I'm not touching sin. I'm not touching sin with a 10-ft pull. And yeah, 12xed in the last I don't know, couple weeks, but I'm not touching it. I'm not touching it. All right, guys. We're going to get virtual bacon Dennis up on the show uh to talk about the market. We're going to talk about our return to fundamentals thesis, what what we see in the market and more uh here from the Empire State Building, the financial capital of the world. Dennis is a longtime investor and trader in the market has been very very active and uh we're going to talk to him about our return of fundamentals thesis, the market, how he's thinking about tokens, uh core sectors and narratives as well.

So, let's get Dennis up. He's got a great setup. obviously been a big fan. Stoked to have him on the show. >> Here we go. Dennis, what's going on, man? Welcome to the show. Uh, good to have you, man. >> Glad to be here. Uh, thank you for having me. And, um, I guess we're joining live. So, what are we talking about today? >> Yeah, man. Big fan of yours. So, thanks for joining. I've been watching your channel for a long time. Um, and we're sitting here at it's June 30th.

Bitcoin's at 58K. Folks are very, very worried about Micro Strategy and Stretch. Um, so why don't we just start here, Dennis? Um, give us a bit of your kind of broader holistic view on the major assets in in crypto and then we'll get into some of our thesises on the show around stable coins, tokenization, per around this kind of like fundamental analysis of token economics and more. But let's just start broad here, get into the nuance. What's your kind of 30,000 foot view on where we're at with the crypto majors?

>> I mean, hopefully uh Bitcoin stays higher than 30,000 ft. Um but I think we're looking at maybe we do 3,000 altitude. Uh that then I think that's low enough. So at 58 historically, this is um way below the 200E SMA already. And everybody has already heard those uh moving average levels, so I'm not going to over repeat them. Um yeah, I'm a net buyer here. I'm heavily allocated to Bitcoin actually. Not not so much alts, but Bitcoin is very very uh deep value territory now.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And I mean in the context of this kind of like broader AI macro trade, there's been so much happening outside of crypto siphoning attention and capital away. I feel like people are looking for a catalyst to get some attention and capital back into Bitcoin, back into the majors here. Is there anything that you think that that would be the core driver of that attention and liquidity shift or, you know, are we just thinking four-year cycle here? Um the answer is it's not so much driven by fundamentals but I think the I'm a technicals guy and I wanted to believe that the four year cycle was over but the fact that it repeated exactly from

October 10th and now we are about 6 months 7 months in and we are basically back to the same like deep draw down levels makes me me to believe that four year cycle is what drives it. Um exactly why I don't know. Um you know I'm a big liquidity guy and liquidity cycles are usually 5 years. So uh this cycle should have been a little bit different but it's not. Um having said that immediately uh you can look at the um correlation between Bitcoin and gold and say that hey the two are moving together post Iran because of the strength in the dollar. I think that's that's a whole um sort of a a pipeline of events you can

you can follow. So starting from the war to inflation and then to the Fed and to rates to yield and then Dixie and now you have uh gold and bitcoin going down. So I think we can see some short-term price action come back up once we are past that like high inflation high um potential rate hike for the next few months. But after that, I think it is the Bitcoin cycle. >> Yeah, I mean, it's just it's been funny how I'm sure you had this experience late last year. We had a lot of folks come on our show and especially from the institutional crowd and really just say like that the four-year cycle is over, you know? They're like, "It's it's done.

It's not happening anymore." And it's just it is just it's just funny, man. You know, >> and it to be fair, this time around is not even that crazy. It's not like anyone is saying Bitcoin is going to 1 million right away. They're all they're saying is, "Hey, it's going a little bit more uh subdued cycles now and we're going to have less chop and thus you probably shouldn't try to sell uh exactly um at the same time and hope for a very long bare market." That that was kind of the thesis. Don't hope for under 60K. Um but we're here. So um I guess Bitcoin always gives us chances if they are patient. Yeah, I think we'll look back at this time period and feel like it's very like like we'll feel gracious

for having this opportunity again. Sometimes I mean well somehow you're able to be very early every bare cycle again to the next kind of macro shift here. Um, so kind of zooming in a bit more, we have this thesis kind of around what I call return of fundamentals. And it's essentially thinking about crypto assets as businesses and looking at actual onchain businesses in crypto assets and thinking about them as uh like like a profit and loss statement. Like you've got uh revenue and then you've got emissions, expenses, um unlocks, etc. And these are kind of two sides to the same coin. And there's only a handful of crypto assets today that

are really like onchain businesses and like operating in this fashion. And we talk about them a lot on the show. You got Hyperliquid, Lighter, um things like Aerad Drrome, um even sometimes Pump. Um and so when when you're thinking about the future of investing in the token market, you said that you're kind of staying away from tokens right now. Do you think that we've made a material shift into this kind of fundamentals investing based on the institutional flows in the market looking at these you know assets as you know businesses similar to equities? Um do you see a future where we have much more of an equity-like structure for crypto assets

versus what we've previously had governance tokens, narrative based tokens, utility tokens. How do you think about the evolving landscape of this kind of fundamental investing from like a pure equity perspective? >> Yeah, great question. I think um it boils down to um why we invest in any assets in the first place. Obviously, there's always going to be narrative plays. Even outside of crypto, there are tons of low caps, penny stocks, whatever. um even outside of the equity markets, people always invest in things that are just based on supply and demand. Um but I think in crypto, especially now that cryptos are um getting

on the same exchanges with the same types of treatment as equity instruments um that rails are there. So um for example like uh security ties just went live on uh NY and I look at that today and I all I see is a ticker. I don't really need to know that hey it's is it a token is it an equity is it trading on this or not because it trades onchain as a tokenized equity but then it also trades on an IC. And the same thing if I want to um trade any uh I want to trade Ethereum. Ethereum started as a token first but now I can trade on every single exchange in the Trafy world. So um to the first part of that equation is

there all the rails are together and now all the businesses have this equal playing ground their tokenized securities or their securities being tokenized same thing. Um and then the second is uh return to fundamentals like you said. Um and mainly it's because uh regulation allows us to. So the classic example of unis swap unis swap is one of the it's one of the first dexes to launch and they still keep kept innovating. V3 v4 not so much. Um they're supposed to have high revenue and if they wanted to trade as a equity based company they they could have had explosive growth long time ago.

>> Yeah. Yeah, >> but they just never were able to because you were not allowed to treat your product, your token, your DEX as an equity instrument and distribute your your shares. So, um I think after this cycle with the after clarity, um the companies who want to do it can and then you will start to see a big divide and people will return to fundamentals because that's um that survives long term. Whereas if you look at something small right onchain, >> it's going to be a while until the narrative runs dry and then you have to move on.

>> Yeah. I mean that's the kind of been that was like the defining factor, right? We had this new administration in the states kind of come out and and basically say that whatever previous administration rules there were from the Gendzler era, those are less relevant. There's a lot more freedom to to kind of do things. And obviously Hyperloop would launch and was kind of like here's what we're going to do. we're going to make this amount of money and we're just going to buy back the token and those two things kind of simultaneously November 2024 um happened and they really changed the entire script and then now as you're saying clarity is coming genius act will be implemented and the plan like the baseline now and I think you know will continue to be is what is my token

holder value like I think investors are starting to ask that question is like what is the value that I get as a token holder. And so, you know, when you think about, you know, flows, buybacks, burns, um, revenues, how like are you are you seeing a shift in your community with people, you know, who want to invest in like higher quality assets? Um, are you seeing a shift away from things like memes? like on the maturity side of things, how like wi with your community, w with your friends, like are you actually seeing a change in investor behavior in the industry or do you think we'll just kind of go back to where you know where we'd been?

>> Um I do think that alpha is kind of disappearing a bit with the um maturity of uh equity like tokens. So, in order for you to to even have the equity have the um equity value to distribute to your to your holders, you have to be relatively mature as a company as a token in the first place. And usually that means you don't want to go too early on to release your token and then build up the revenue from there. Um, Hyperlquid, great example. um people who were in the airdrop that was a great like wealth generation event for them and um but people who came after uh it's it was good but um a lot of it came

from the still exponential growth after their TGE and you can't really even replicate that um with other dexes even because I mean going from top 100 to top 20 top 15 is is a very hard feat to do. So, um I think most retail particip participants who came in crypto first u they still lean towards low caps um more asymmetrical bets. >> Yeah. >> And less so on the institutional side. But for um institutional investors, they definitely want assets that are that they can actually hold for at least couple years um that are kind of given the the stamp on traffic exchanges and

they would prefer for them to have uh revenue first and actually get in a little bit later. So there's a bit of divide there. >> Interesting. And you know what a bit of the sentiment dynamic right now is as well, man, is that people are like very excited about stable coins or tokenization or pers. I'm like, sure, you can express the tokenization bull thesis. Maybe you buy Ethereum. Maybe that's your thesis. Um, but obviously the performance has been very subpar. Obvious, you know, securitized as you mentioned is going on the NYSC, I think Thursday. That'll be a very like pure play expression for tokenization bullishness. For stable coins, you could buy Circle, you could buy Athena, you could buy [clears throat] Sky, maybe you

buy Ethereum as well if you think that that's like, you know, uh, a tangential expression. But there's like a lot of this growth happening right now in these sectors that are undeniably mega trends. However, we as like normal retail investors, we don't really have really clean way to invest into these trends. And it's like the institutions are are, you know, launching this OpenUSD network that was just announced today. There's no way for us to invest in that. Uh, you know, Tempo was launching with Stripe. There's no there's been no pre-sale for Tempo. Um, circles arc chain, there's no way to get exposure to that. I mean, maybe they do a token sale, but I doubt it. And so there's like this weird sentiment [clears throat]

dynamic where we are very bullish on these mega trends, but we can't get into the ground floor like we used to when we were bullish on Salana at $2 because we were like this is like a highly performance chain. I'm going to buy it at $2. It's not like I can buy securitized right now at $2. Like no, the thing is going to launch at like a bill like $1.5 billion on the NYC, right? And so that there's an interesting sentiment dynamic there as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think um you hit the nail on the head on um stable coins because uh stable coins are USD stable coins and in order to be in that position you have to be like a top three top four player

>> and everyone wants to invest in tedar but you can't invest in tedar and even this this brought us like plasma and stable which are okay but um but again like we're seeing that they're not so so much pure tedar plays they're more like tangential like infra plays Um and then you have Circle which is pretty pure but that wave has mostly done its course and and everyone already knows Circle. Um I think Athena is interesting. Um they just listed on um the NASDAQ I think through a a spa or something >> that was pretty interesting with with um with the same ticker um but a different um entity technically. So I think their

their um uh governance token Ethena and then I think their uh ticker on the stock market is USDE. Uh this is what I saw. So, so definitely people are trying to give um exposure to the um equity instrument but we have like space for like five players and so far it's been it's been these and >> can't really do much. I think stable coins is um is a foregone conclusion at this point.

>> Yeah, exactly. I mean we're at 300 billion right now. I think we're going to get to three trillion, five trillion total outstanding value. And it like the question is how to express that trade and I'm still searching for it. On the per side, it's clear. It's like you buy hype and you buy lighter. I mean those those tokens are performing extremely well. They've not even had a bare market. Um what's your read on those? Why are those performing better than uh the rest of the market right now? Is it just purely a narrative thing? Is it the economics? What's your what's your read on why, you know, a couple of assets have basically not had a bare market in 2026 when the rest of the market has?

>> Well, um I think I'm I'm not so bullish on hype at this price. I think hype um given the bare market rally, it probably should go back down to like $30 to $40 and then it'll be very interesting to me. I think it should go above 100 in the next bull run pretty reasonably, but I don't think it's gonna just defy gravity of uh of Bitcoin. Um yeah, because most coins don't do that. Um however, I do think it's because they have a very sound business. They have the real revenue and the revenue goes into the token and it [snorts] also helps that um they're in an exchange.

like us in crypto, we know that, hey, if you have your own coin that uh trades with um pretty heavy volume on your own exchange, you can uh stabilize it, let's say, uh a little bit more um meaningfully. So, that's totally fine. And I think lighter is is really sound. I've um I've talked to Vlad quite a bit as well, and I was on the airrop pretty early. Um but yeah uh the perp narrative is there >> because um like perp itself the perpetual exchange is a great instrument being invented. Um kudos to Arthur Hayes. Uh yeah uh now that like SpaceX the most liquid market pre-market for

SpaceX was hyperlquid by far even the preipo markets were not com compatible >> uh competing with hyperlquids uh pre-market on um through trade XYZ. It was it was a very very good thing to see. Um, so yeah, I think pers are a big mega trend, but I do think uh so far they are still um token products >> and and token products typically follow the Bitcoin cycle. So um staying a little bit uh cautious y >> against bare market rallies, but I think next cycle purpose are going to be huge.

>> Yeah. Um we're just going we're just going down the list here. So, prediction markets, um, Kelchi apparently is filing for an IPO maybe at 40 or is looking to raise at a $40 billion valuation to potentially do an IPO soon. And people are speculating that Poly Market may not launch a token and may rather actually do an IPO. Um, Poly Market revenue is up there top five on a 24-hour basis consistently, uh, with Hyperlid and Circle and Tether. Um do you do you have any exposure to these via private markets? Do you like what's your what's your read on on poly market

here? Well, I I think um with the a of um preipos onchain and also hype um calchin poly market you could uh there's not much private market deals you can do outside of just directly buying the preipos or ps um I do see a big divide because a lot of people don't know this koshi has overtaken poly market um since the beginning of the year to be majority of the prediction market volume so the one [snorts] to bet on is actually koshi no longer poly market um at least as the leader. Uh now I think anyone else who comes now is going to be a little bit late in the trafi angle >> to do prediction markets. So if you look

at um who was that player that wants to do the their own prediction uh Facebook Meta >> um you are now competing with literally doc to do prediction markets uh and unless you go the token route I I just don't see any other player doing the pure equity route um whereas the token route I do see um more token place in this sector that could come up um So, uh I think a a pretty strong example like predict fund from Binance. Yeah, they're very strong backing from Binance. Um that's clearly a token play.

And if you ask anyone like a company that's heavily backed by Binance in that caliber, their endgame is definitely token. So, um, that >> platform is probably not going to tap into like the the traditional finance, you know, cyber gambling crowd, but way more so in the crypto crowd. And I think us as crypto investors probably should look into those. >> Um, or just buy the preipo of couchy or poly market. >> Yeah, I mean, IPOs for those would be insane. I mean, people were waiting for the poly market airdrop and I'm not sure if we're ever going to get it. I I I don't think we're going to get a Cal Sharage up. I think that's for sure.

>> Yeah. No, they they they wouldn't do that. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um [laughter] you like the sounds thinking about >> thinking about the um the current situation here. We're just going down the docket here. I love it. Um Sailor. Okay. So, Stretch is sitting at $84, $83. Um Micro Strategy. I mean, let me let me tell you exactly where it's at. It's at uh $85. Um stretch is at Yeah. 83 and >> Bitcoin's at 58. 58.

>> So, what's your read here? People are saying like in the in the chat here, they're saying that he's going to get liquidated and that's going to be the bottom. I've been kind of saying that I don't think this is all that bad. I've been kind of saying that I don't think that that I think it's a bit overexaggerated, but what's your read here on Michael Sailor's predicament? >> Um I'm I'm with you on that and not so much um only on feeling, but um the liquidation angle is just not there. I mean, uh, they do have obligations to pay their yield and their dividends, but their actual liquidation price on their leverage, uh, is below $10,000 price mark for Bitcoin, uh, like 10,400ish.

So, unless you think that's happening, I mean, it's a possibility, but the possibility of of them getting liquidated is very low. Uh, now, could they lose a lot of um interest, especially on Stretch? Yes. >> Um, so Stretch could continue to quotequote DPEG, but that's the key word there. There is no peg. >> Uh, they have no obligation to keep it at 100. So, uh, if they don't want to do it anymore, they can just leave it at this at this um state and pay back the pay the yield. All they have to do is pay the yield. They don't have to bring it back up to 100. Um, even having said all that, uh, I think this week it's

looking pretty good for them. So, they announced a 1.25 billion potential sale of Bitcoin soon. >> And that accounts for just like 2.5% of their stash. And that number, if you compare it to Bitcoin ETF flows, it's less than a weekly flow of outflow of Bitcoin ETF on average for the last two months. So even if they sell that within next week, it's not going to be bigger than ETF outflows. That's one. And two, uh it's 2.5% of their stash. So they're going to have to do this another 40 times to liquidate their whole stash. So if they do this one time and the market is already bouncing on Stretch a bit, uh

let's see. Okay, maybe don't they don't even need to do anymore. And if Stretch can get back to 100, then we could just keep it there. They they might not get the excitement back on Stretch, but I think that bomb could be diffused if it just repackags from here. >> I mean, yeah, my thesis has been that that the bomb would get diffused even if we just get back back up to like 87, 92, 94, investor confidence rises. I just if it's not Sailor selling right now, then Bitcoin is going to be in trouble. I mean, I don't think he's selling this week. Do you think he's selling this week?

>> Uh, technically, it's like from time to time, yeah, it's really hard to know. Um, it does look like that 1.25 billion is for sure going to happen, but the other two billion from for their buyback is like maybe. Um, so we should see that and probably soon because they they want to like show the balance sheet right away. Um, yeah, I agree with you. Like if all they need to do is like sell 1.25 billion and then stretch recovers to 85 87, sell another 1.25 billion, it recovers to 100 and then and then we're good.

>> Yeah. And um, you know, people say that he's kind of got himself into a really hard place because he has like three parties to please, right? He's got the stretch holders, he's got Bitcoin holders, and he's got Micro Strategy holders. And these separate parties, the only way that it really works out for them is if Bitcoin goes up and the MNAV, you know, stays above one and everybody's happy then. But in any other scenario, sideways down, it's nearly impossible to please all three shareholders of those different assets.

Do you agree with that? >> Uh, yeah, to some extent. I've seen those threats. Um I think it it's mainly because stretch grew way too quickly, way too fast. >> And um if it it took like three four years to grow to this 10 billion AUM, uh it would have been fine. All he needed is to show that um the targeted yield of stretch is quite a bit lower than the annualized growth rate of Bitcoin and then it'll be it'll be fine. But because everyone wanted that yield in this time, uh he kind of trapped himself. So um after stretch gets stabilized, I think he should not promote stretch as the

main thing anymore and instead go back to strategy >> then that Yeah, that could be better. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All right, shifting gears here into early stage. So, we started a little uh kind of like angel prop cap fund in 2023. My business partner and I, Robbie, he's out this week. And we probably did like 50 to 60 deals and a lot of them are like in their unlock phases right now. And obviously, the token market has been relatively decimated. And we've very, you know, we've done very few new venture deals this year. maybe like a handful, four to five, couple small ones, couple little AI adjacent ones and

that's it. Um, I know that you've done quite a bit of angel investments as well. I'm curious, you know, just about that arc, you know, what is your kind of like story there? What worked for you? What didn't, you know, what learnings, lessons did you take? And then where are you at right now mid 2026 angel investments wise still doing them? other sectors, other industries still in crypto. Give us a bit of like like what you've learned, you know, some of your winners, you know, where you're at and then kind of like what's happening now from your side on the angel or early stage venture side.

Yeah, I mean I've had um at this point like five years of Android experience um and with a fund and uh it has always been prop capital so we just invest our own money like like you guys do and um in the beginning it was uh it was narrative driven. was you get in at the right time, you get in during the Bitcoin bull run, and then you hit the right narratives, layer one, gaming, AI, um later on like memes, uh you were fine. But then this last cycle right after Trump, uh it really shifted the whole gears where um Angel uh overall like as a uh someone who has a lot of

connections over the last like five years, six years in this industry like investing, you can spot certain deals and I think overall it's still worth doing them. But for people who um are going in fresh, I don't think it's a it's a great idea because Android investing usually forces you to hold at least year at a time, you know, up to three four years. >> Uh which is pretty standard. Um but the crypto narrative and altcoin season, altcoin cycles are getting way shorter.

uh 2025 like three months at a time and you have to rotate, you have to go back to Bitcoin. >> So that's my stance for this next cycle as well. Like for me personally, I still do quite a bit because I have access uh when the time is right, when I see them. But I wouldn't recommend for most people. I think if you are mainly looking at like ICO stage or if you're like trying to buy early stage tokens um when they're about to go uh trading live um it's best that you buy them in the liquid market and then you just hold for 3 months at a time and then if you have any gains you go back into Bitcoin. I think that's that's the best way.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean I I hear you. It was like like the narratives of 23 and 24 are so drastically different than the ones now. It's just it's changed so much. I mean all all of you know it kind of leads me into some of your thoughts on a lot of these L1s right like it was all about new blockchains, new assets on these blockchains, new L2s coming. It was this kind of like like a lot of the premium in valuations to date in this industry have been for L1's have been for the underlying blockchains and that's been a result of like this fat protocol thesis um and just kind of this network effect thesis that a lot of people have believed in and invested in. But I think

that's changing. I think it's changing quite a bit. I don't like I don't know that blockchains are all like I don't know if a lot or a majority of the blockchains are going to be the most valuable assets in the market. Like I think if there's applications on chain and they're generating a ton of revenue, then these are probably going to be repriced, you know, C hyperlquid as as like sure it's its own blockchain technically, but it's really just a perex. And same thing goes for a lot of these other applications. And so, you know, I I wonder if that era of the fat protocol thesis and the network effects for L1's like I wonder if L1's are going to perform ever again like they have in the past. and and I'm not sure. I'm just

not sure. >> Well, so I think uh going to the revenue side is definitely a very easy conversation and you're not going to find most protocols and most tokens having those um anywhere close to the ratios of revenue that hype generates, lighter generates, and even like um uh units on top of hype. you can look at very very simple layers with uh very high revenue and if those launch tokens it's going to be very very strong. Um, but I do think the the so-called fat protocol thesis has been um talking about all of the attention and all of the uh users will be on those layer ones

and ultimately like what drives the value of of tokens right it's how many users you have before this revenue phases how many users you have how many people are willing to bet on them when the market is good thinking that they can go up and I think in a way how how many people can trade it through certain exchanges. So that has always been Ethereum since the beginning because of ICOs. That's the place tokenize anything and then it became Salana a bit and then different L1s but ultimately still EVM. So, in this upcoming cycle, um there's the revenue stuff and then I I think there's going to be a like a digital commodity um narrative to replace kind of the layer 1 because the way I see layer

ones, why were layer 1 so popular? They all wanted to copy Ethereum and Salana. >> Yeah. in order to be tradable on the right exchanges and to last one to two cycles and they are getting to that stage now. So after clarity after we have this whole framework of um the 16 tokens being digital commodities and more to come through this graduation framework we probably will see more layer ones and it's going to be a race of which layer ones become comparable to the existing basket and then which um memes and which uh digital collectibles become comparable to the crypto punks

and to the um doge and ship and uh whiff. Those are the three in the SEC's rule book. Um that's going to be like the old days of um which coins did Binance list as a layer one and then these are one these are the ones that are going to come next. >> Interesting. So So you're placing a lot of value on that on that um I guess it was like notes that came out of the SEC about which assets are digital commodities etc. >> Yeah, there there are some solid alpha in there. Um the SEC specifically named those three memes and a bunch of um layer ones. Uh and they really like like ENS uh NFTTS, Crypto Punks.

>> Yep. >> Um what was it? Chrommy squiggles, I think. And um >> Oh my goodness. >> Yeah. And uh >> what year is it? [laughter] >> I I don't know, man. >> Um okay. So, so, so clarity for you is going to provide a lot of that, you know, no pun intended, clarity for investable assets. How about some of these assets, right, that you know, um, have massive institutional adoption use cases, but have tokconomics that are still kind of like, um, obviously they're just not at the same level of some of these onchain uh, revenue based protocols, right? You think of like uh oracle infrastructure. You think of like uh really important um uh designs for

bridging and for crosschain and for uh designs for security or um you know things like launchpads etc. Like there's like this whole cohort of like this like you've got the blockchain layer like the most bottom layer the L1 and then you've got like the application layer and you've got all these different types of applications and then there's like this whole like stack in the middle of all this infrastructure that has been vested anything from ZK to bridging to oracles to crosschain to uh anything in that middle stack and that's all been kind of like rerated a lot lower and people have just kind of like seemingly forgot about those assets and those protocols.

although they're like continuously proving their importance to building this kind of onchain economy. What's your what's your read on that you know stack of middle infrastructure? >> So uh I think the one to look at is chain link. uh chain link is the only one that's not layer 1 or a P uh like commodity or meme that's on the list that technically is a token but has enough utility first of all uh where it uses the link token to pay for gas and pay for transactions and um you have to become a validator by holding link um but also it's like core defi and now

core crosschain oracle tapping all of it and they're the oldest to do it. So, uh technically the traffic world loves link. Um and it has been proven like they will be a digital commodity after clarity. So, anyone else who come you better hope that you can become the chain link level of of middleware. Um otherwise, it looks like it's pretty difficult. It's easier to to just be an L1. Uh there are a lot of L1's on the list. It's very hard to be the the dominating middleware layer.

>> So you think a lot of that middleware layer is going to consolidate into like one protocol? Could be chain link. >> There's a handful like I think layer zero is pretty cool. Um very different from chain link, very cryptonative um with like um uh the zero network. >> Um I think the crosschain ecosystem is tough. >> Yeah. Uh basically most things have been exploited now except for chain link. Uh even later zero a little bit. It's not like it's debatable if it's their fault or not with the whole kernel thing.

>> Um yeah I I wouldn't I wouldn't look at anything bridge related as a protocol to >> yeah Oracle is interesting. Uh Oracle is less attack vector. >> So thinking about this kind of like tokenization wave it's kind of like the last thing that we haven't really covered. It's happening, right? We're bringing a ton of this tokenized asset uh infrastructure is being built and a ton of the tokenized assets are coming on chain, right? We've seen the rise of of preIPO pers. We've seen obviously per on tokenized equities commodities. Now we've seen spot spex really catch fire on Salana and and uh you know base and coinbase are going all in on bringing tokenized equities onto on onto base and to trade them. And so we're very firmly

seeing this and like this is the core thesis that we've been um you know pushing here on the show and just exploring which is there's somewhere in the number of hundreds of trillions of dollars of tokenized assets that are going to come on chain in the next let's call it a decade or two and let's call in the next five years we get 10 to 20 trillion. So, it's an order of magnitude larger than the existing crypto market cap. And so, I think the entire crypto market cap is going to look a lot different than what it currently looks like, which is like pretty much only crypto assets in the top 50. You have figures. HELOC is up there in the top 15, but we're going to see a lot more of that. You're going to see, you know, tokenized versions of equities and other

commodities and other kind of financial products in the top 15, 20 assets by by Marke. I, you know, I think it's almost guaranteed. And so my question to you is if this is right like if we have tokenized if stable coins grow if tokenized deposits grow if the if the if we get trillions of dollars of tokenized equities real estate etc onchain bonds T- bills who wins which companies which protocols which blockchains which primitives who is the dominant winner in this tokenized asset universe if a lot of this is trading on chain who how do we think from from the investor perspective to allocate to certain primitives, protocols, companies if this tokenization thesis is

correct. >> Uh so I think hype you you love hype and I I love hype for this. Um I think the the moment that clicked for me was um when they locked down that Vanguard partnership. That was pretty crazy to secure the ticker of SPX S&P 500. No, not even XPX on Hype as an official licensed like ticker to trade this onchain. I mean that's crazy. Uh and thinking about it fundamentally like that's uh per is what unlocks the 24/7 trading. I think it's less so about tokenized stocks. Um like a lot of people who haven't traded this don't know like when you trade for example on tokenized um stocks uh depending on

where you trade it some markets don't let you trade on weekends still because it has to follow the same um the same playbook. So ultimately it will be 24/7 but I think it's way more the NASDAQ and NIC and what they say way less so about these um providers. Uh but I think underneath the provider uh I still really like Ethereum because unless Salana completely replaces the Ethereum trading stock um every single one of these tokenization layers where do they issue the tokens? It's some sort of ERC20 derivative. And where do people trade it? They use EVM wallet. And the network is Solidity uh smart contracts.

And you have the same nodes, you have the same infra. So um the the Ethereum technology adoption is like a foregone conclusion. It's just like they cannot for the life of me figure out how do they get that to acrew to ETH. Um, but even if they stop working on ETH, I feel like Black Rockck might just take over ETH and just make it their in-house like technology stack. It it's that mature now. Um, so I I have that, you know, hope for ETH to be uh still around and and powering this layer 10 years down the line.

>> Any any other winners that you see in the market that they can, you know, point to? Obviously, per underlying blockchain, ETH, Ethereum. Who else wins? Who else is a major benefactor of tons of tokenized assets being traded on chain, being borrowed on chain, being used in DeFi, being um collateralized, being available 24/7 to to trade. Who else wins? >> Um [gasps] I think there will be some dominating players like we talk about um Xbox uh what is it? What's that one called?

Um the the the other provider uh Tessa. Yeah. Uh, Tesar, uh, they had a pretty big share of the SpaceX preo. Um, I think those are pretty replaceable to be fair. Um, it it's really like who's the most liquid, who can provide those shares to be tokenized. XOXOX was getting so much traction pre SpaceX IPO, but all of the players who used XT stocks got screwed. So, um I I don't think a lot of exchanges will go through them again for anthropic and open AI.

They're going to pick someone else. So, uh and and XOX is a big it's um backed by Kraken. So, >> yeah, >> I don't know. I think this space is still a little bit early and needs disruption. Um it's easier to bet on pers and easier to bet on um the smart contract layer the layer ones and and actually not any specific layer one just ETH maybe so if you think ETH is going to lose to soul [snorts] >> virtual bacon Dennis Lou man I've been a huge fan thank you for your time I I love your channel I also appreciate the way that you uh have a very kind of fundamental view on the asset class but then also just pretty much strictly a

apply none emotional technicals to the way that you invest. It's like a very like interesting way to think about the market, but then when it comes to the charts, it's like I don't give a what the noise is, who's saying what. This is what the charts are saying, and here's what I'm going to, you know, here's what I'm going to do. And so, I appreciate that kind of like ability to have two separate minds when it comes to investing men. >> Thank you. and and I've been following you guys since like like DeFi slate and you guys were one of the like earliest like sources for DeFi since forever like I've been since DeFi summer. So really happy to be here and discussing this with you today.

>> Thanks Dennis man. We'll have to get you on again. Best of luck. Let's see what Bitcoin can do. Let's see what Sailor can do. Let's see what the tokenization stable coins and pers markets can do. We got a bullish optimistic few years ahead. Just a quarter left of this bare market. I think at the very most four to five months, we're gonna survive, man. See you soon. All right. >> Thank you. Cheers, man. >> What do we think, guys? What are we bullish? Are we bullish? Are we bullish? That was fun. That was fun. Dennis is great. Dennis is great. He's I don't know. I mean, he's just got like a certain outlook on the uh on on the market that, you know, it it's just takes time and years of experience and

practice and thinking and making content and then you have a very well-rounded approach. And obviously, we're just like deep in this bear, but it's still very very very very great to have like that level of of optimism towards the space, but also discipline, right? He's like, "Dude, look, I'm not buying your Hyperlid at 64. lighter is great, but like I don't really care. Bitcoin's at 60K and that's all that really matters to me. And so he's just like until we find some lows on that, none of this other stuff really matters. So fair takes. Um what do you think about TRIA?

I don't have an opinion. Um joining live from Nigeria, what's going on? New type, how has VC as a sector been doing? I hope I answered that for you. Um virtual have a clue about salar strategy. The show is an industry plant. Thanks, Pickle Beats. Good to see you here. Just go ahead and give you the block. Good to have you, though. It's fun. It's fun one show for you there, buddy. Lock in, OG Killer. All right, guys. I'm going to take a super quick break. I'm going to get Son and Johan from Veta and Metamas. We're going to talk about the their vault announcement and more of what they're doing. I'll be right back. [music] [music] >> [music]

[music] [music] >> Heat. Hey, Heat. >> [music] >> We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] You know, we get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep.

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>> [music] >> You know we get deep. We get deeper. We get deep. You know we get deep. We get deeper. [music] We get deep. You know we get deep. [music] >> [music] [music]

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[music] know we get deep [music] >> [music] >> We get we get you know we get deep. [music] >> All righty guys, we've got Son and Johan here. Son is the CEO at Veta. Johan is the senior director of product at MetaMask. Uh MetaMask and VA have came together to launch a MetaMask money account. Part of what we've been talking about a ton on the show is just this

kind of we call it neo finance. It's almost like this converging of different worlds. This earn account powered by onchain economy. Guys, welcome to the show. Good to have you both. >> Thank you. >> Vaults have very very very much grown in the last I mean six months in terms of mind share, 18 months in terms of actual growth and deposits. It's very clear that these things are not just a degenerate DeFi product. they're becoming scalable for institutions as well as you know akin to like an earn program. Let's just start broad here.

Let's not bury the lead. What is this MetaMask money account? Why didn't it make sense to launch now um MetaMask has gone from kind of like what was just a self-custodial wallet into now this almost like home of your all of your financial applications on chain within MetaMask swap per now kind of this new earn product. talk to us about this uh evolution of MetaMask Johan and kind of why this product made sense. >> Yeah, amazing. Thank you. Uh I think the intro was perfect. So the history of Metamas obviously started with that single signer experience and it has evolved into a best-in-class trading experience and the MetaMask money account is really sort of our first foray into evolving that into uh

bringing financial utility to everyone's everyday life. And so what the money account is essentially is a self-custodial account that now lives on Metamas mobile. It empowers this automatic earning experience. Underlying that experience is the Metamas stable coin and it connects also our Metamas card experience. So you can spend very seamlessly that that earning balance. And then lastly, most importantly, it's deeply connected to our trade primitive. So users can very seamlessly deposit tokens into this um MetaMask money account, earn an automatic yield and then move that to their trade positions whether that it's their purp position or or a predict position. Um to answer your question of why now it's a great

question. Um really what we've seen um happen in crypto is very much akin to what you saw within the neo banking revolution. So you take a step back, you know, during the neo banking um revolution, you saw a series of modern revolutions sort of build on top of each other, including, you know, open banking APIs, mobile, social, cloud, and all of these layers allowed for essentially the unbundling of these large financial institutions and neo banks to be built. And what you've seen happen in crypto over the last several years is a hardening of all the infrastructure whether it's um uh 4 4337 or sort of the rise of like very fast layer 1 to layer

2s and so you have now infrastructure as well as course stable coins that allows you to sort of build similar neo bankanking experiences specifically on crypto rails and so you're very much kind of seeing that trend what we saw 10 years ago happen now again within within crypto and obviously within MetaMask as we've been leading across kind of these trade primitives. We launched our stable coin last year. It provided the unique opportunity for us to sort of launch this money account right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then son just from from your side kind of being the the engine under the hood here for such a platform that has such large distribution, you know, what about VA's product suite and offerings made this make the most sense?

talk to us about some of the of the user behavior and their kind of demands, musthaves, what they look for and kind of how you guys match those demands with your product and then bringing that into MetaMask. >> Absolutely. Yeah. What I'll say is VA is playing a very small but I think important role in what is a massive technical achievement from MetaMask here. To my knowledge, this is maybe the most seamless UX that I've ever seen built around vaults. the way that yield is on by default in your account. Uh it's it's on when you trade between assets. Uh you can move in and out in any stable coin. It's just a really amazing product that the MetaMask team has built. Uh it's a privilege to be a part of that launch. Uh the first thing I want to comment on is Andy, what you

mentioned, which is why are vaults growing here? Like what is so interesting about vaults in this particular time in the history of crypto? And I think the reason that vaults have been so successful and so top of mind is precisely because distribution is moving into fintech and enterprise, right? What fintexs want if they're going to put these products embedded in their apps in front of their users. They need control, right? They need access. They need guarantees for their users. And so raw DeFi, like just, you know, directly putting their users in front of raw DeFi markets makes no sense in that universe. And so this is where the rise of the vault really comes from. It's not built for cryptonatives

who understand what they're doing, right? They know how to interface with raw DeFi. When you put these in front of real consumers, you need a layer that can manage risk. You need a layer that has controls in place that users have guarantees over what can happen to their assets. And so I think, you know, this is the answer to the question, why vaults? Um, as far as MetaMask and this partnership, I think it's an amazing opportunity, right? MetaMask has a ton of stable coins. Uh what's really interesting about this product and I think one of the things that VETA has been uniquely able to bring to the table is first of all it's built on monad right which is this really fast right really cheap chain uh I'm really bullish on monad I think this is the first of many enterprises who will be building on

the chain and so being able to have this multi-chain flexibility is really important but even beyond that when you think about yield products you don't just want to be beholden to a single yield source Right, DeFi and even tradfi yields just are changing constantly. And so what we've really specialized in at VETA is providing the widest range of access whether it's onchain lending, whether it's RWAS, trading, liquidity provisioning, our vaults truly allow you to get access to any yield on any chain, which I think was uh you know pretty important for this product.

>> Love it. Love it. And when it comes to the actual yield and the product, maybe you guys could just explain the exact technical architecture of like what's happening here. So MetaMask stable coin is earning yield. Uh that yield is coming from a certain vault. Give us kind of the high level here of you know what the who's curating this thing? Who what are the products inside of the of the uh of the account and what am I you know where does the yield come from? >> Yeah, perfect. So um maybe just walk through the user journey. So as stated before, users can deposit any token into the minimas mining account. We offer a onetoone conversion of stable coins as well as a tokens and that is then automatically converted into MUSD and

then swept into this Vader vault and we've built um really groundbreaking infrastructure within consensus to facilitate that. Um really we're abstracting away the complexity as as son mentioned. It feels like a neo banking experience. There's not multiple clicks. It's a seamless sweep into this vault and automatic earning of yield for users. Below the hood sits the VA vault. We work with staircas financial as the for the risk monitoring as well as the curation on the vault. And then below that uh we um the team obviously then works with creating markets across firstly um Morpho and then very soon Ave as well >> and the and the yield is coming from the T bills underlying the stable coin or

what is the yield opportunity? >> Great question. So no very importantly there's sort of two components here. Obviously stable coins have that underlying surf rate uh that are sort of inherent to stable coins. Very important to note the yield in this instance is not the so far at all. It is the onchain yield that we are generating via the VAT vault curated by stake financial. So it's generated via the lending markets on Morpho as well as RE. So it's very much onchain yield. We're originating onchain. It's very much a cryptonative product that abstracts away complexity and it offers sort of this crypto neo banking experience for users.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I want to double click on a point and get both of your perspectives on that because I put out a post as well about um I I think it was about tokenization and and vaults kind of being this interesting dynamic. For example, you can have a basket of uh different asset types in a given vault that isn't really uh possible in traditional finance right now. For example, you can't put like gold ETF with uh S&P and then put a Bitcoin ETF into a single product. Doesn't exist. These things are becoming possible on chain. But then I I got a a rebuttal about well none of this matters until we originate on chain. And so you just mentioned that Johan this origination.

So maybe son Johan what what does that mean and why is origination onchain important for yield generating opportunities. >> Yeah maybe I can take a stab at this. First of all I think that description of vaults and tokenization and how these things play together is totally accurate. Uh the way I think about tokenization is we have off-chain yield sources and funds that we represent as a token, but these are really Lego blocks, right? Like you know what most people don't want to do is assemble their own baskets of different sorts of um exposures with different risks and liquidity requirements and all this other stuff. They just want products that meet their personalized requirements. And so when you think about vaults, vaults are that

infrastructure layer to assemble these Lego blocks into financial products that people can then consume. I actually think there is value. So let's talk about onchain origination, right? That's that was the question. >> So you can imagine a world where financial products are issued natively on chain, right? Where we're not just taking some money market fund, right? Putting a tokenization layer around it and then letting people hold a token and trade a token. that itself has value. But the point of all this infrastructure that we're building is not just to have better distribution for my financial products, but to actually build better financial products, right? Ones that are more transparent, that are cheaper, that are more efficient. And there is immense incentive to do this. Uh one analysis

that we've done is if you look at the cost structure of a fund right just you take a tokenized fund any sort of fund how you assemble a fund there's all these intermediaries and all of these steps that need to happen to create this thing right whether it's accounting reporting whatever it is you can do that in an onchain native way at a fraction of the cost and what that means for you as an issuer is that margin is either something you can capture as revenue or pass on to your users for growth. So there's immense incentive to do this onchain native issuance. I think we'll get there. But I'm also really excited about just tokenizing funds in the real world and making them more accessible to people through you know great distribution channels like MetaMask.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Because that was um you know bear in mind we I I have zero Treadfi experience. So this has been like a eight-month learning journey for us here on on the show. It's been it's been awesome. I mean it's been great bare market just pure knowledge gaining. Um and so you know I was hearing that basically or you know so I've heard is that you can't take an existing product and then like tokenize it and and like like you you have to start with a new product that you're going to tokenize. You can't like tokenize an existing fund. And so what you're saying is that in that process of creating a new fund offchain just to tokenize it, doing that origination onchain removes a lot of

this kind of it basically cuts a lot of costs and removes a lot of this kind of like third party intermediation [snorts] or headache or whatever that process is and you can do that onchain rather than having to start it originate offchain and then just tokenize it. Is is that the right idea? >> That's the right idea. And I'll give you some just examples of something bizarre that we're seeing in the industry right now, which is a symptom of this what we're talking about. We have there are tokenized treasuries and tokenized money market fund products that are less accessible than their trady counterparts, right? Like you take a traditional money market fund and that's available to us retail, right? Normal people can actually just participate in that through their brokerage accounts or

whatever. But there are all kinds of tokenized versions of these things that are only accessible to qualified purchasers and accredited investors. So I think it's just worth asking if you end up with a product that is worse when you put a tokenization layer around it like what are we doing here, right? I mean something has to happen differently. >> John, anything to add there? >> Um I think probably I I'll wear two hats here. One is sort of obviously my DeFi hat. Um I do have a transpire background and so um ultimately I think crypto rails just provide fundamentally better infrastructure and you know we have this internet money and the infrastructure allows us to build better riskadjusted portfolios and so just to second and

echo what Sun said I do think it gives us the opportunity just to build fundamentally better riskadjusted uh financial risk products. I'll also wear my product hat because that's the hat that I wear 24/7. I think from a from a metamas perspective and what we want to deliver is again sort of this auto earning experience where the users actually get very conservative yield. Um ultimately we want users to spend this balance uh hold their stable coins or their tokens in this money account earn this auto yield and use metamas card. And so we didn't really sort of think very deeply about how can we put together a basket of very exotic assets.

In fact the exact opposite. We want to provide a very safe onchain yield for our users so they feel comfortable holding that balance and then spinning every single day with the card. >> Yeah. And just to kind of piggyback off that John, I mean we are seeing just the rise of this massive competition to be the everything platform. And I mean you guys are up there in terms of uh hyperlquid builder codes for pers revenue. You guys have a card, a stable coin, uh predictions within the platform, uh obviously the wallet itself. Now this new kind of money account product like I mean is it fair to think about actually do you feel that MetaMask has a

sustainable edge against the larger comp uh competitors Robin Hood Coinbase Phantom you know insert other here and just like generally curious about like the product strategy like if everyone's trying to be the everything exchange then every then everything's everybody's being yeah everyone's then the nothing exchange change. So then like wouldn't there be more product and like going or more fruition or more outcome and going the other way? Kind of curious how you think about that from the product side like what is the MetaMask edge on the everything platform game and like how are you thinking about how it all plays out?

>> So thoughtful question. So first thing to say is that you mentioned some great companies building great products and I will also say that the market is incredibly large right there's a there's an insanely large market here to go after. If we're thinking about rearchitecting the entire financial system on better rails that is a massive TAM secondly all those players that you mentioned are very much focused on very particular jurisdictions. Uh they have regulatory licenses in particular countries. They cater to users in very particular countries. And the thing to note is Metamas is global by default. When we ship software, it is instantly available in more than 190 countries instantly for users. That is a huge competitive advantage. The last thing I'll say is I talked earlier about neo

banking and sort of the rise of financial innovation and just innovation generally. We obviously saw this happen in neo banks. We saw this happening this in AI. Now we're definitely seeing the same thing happening in crypto. You always have this tug of war between the new startup that is building from first principles in the new technology innovation uh that is happening and then you have the incumbent desperately trying to rearchitect their stack to uh be native within this new innovation cycle and I think MetaMask is in a very unique uh position uh because not only is it born within the crypto native stack uh we have distribution globally and so we kind of have uh both of the power of of both these two extremes and so I think we have a unique opportunity

to serve users globally with the stack that you've mentioned. >> Yeah, >> Andy I just want to piggyback off that. >> Uh so at Veta we talked to a whole spectrum of enterprises all the way from cryptonative DeFi protocols to you know more established fintexs who are just now dipping their toes in. And I think what we see is there's a clear and direct translation from how cryptonative a team is, a product team is to how good the product is as a as a build and as an outcome. And obviously the hard part is distribution, right? So what I've been saying is for cryptonative teams who have distribution, they have immense advantages over their trady or more traditional counterparts because these

this is hard technology. There's absolutely a learning curve and you can see that with money accounts, right? It has all kinds of interesting features that don't come off the shelf. It required a custom build. It required really deeply thinking about the user. So, I think there's huge advantages for cryptonative teams that have distribution and leverage their expertise. >> Yeah. And just building off that, uh, when it comes to the kind of underpinnings of a lot of these Beta Vault products, are you seeing certain traction in a specific protocol offering, specific yield coin, a specific type of asset, a specific strategy? I don't know if there's like alpha giving away here or like if we have to be quiet about these things, but they're all on shame. Like what's working? Like who's who's kind of

getting the most mind share? Who's who's winning the vault game right now? Or what kind of strategies? What kind of ideas are the most popular? >> Yeah, this is a great question. I think the market has moved from how, you know, from financial engineering, right? Like how exotic of a portfolio can we put together to maximize yield >> to how trusted are we and what kind of access can we provide? And this is mostly a function of the user base evolving from again DGENs who are very very yield sensitive, right? They are the ones who are playing with these Lego blocks and deciding, you know, they care about basis points to the user base now is increasingly in fintech, right? And these are people who may not have access to traditional yield sources, right?

They may use do all of their banking through fintexs, right? And so what we're actually seeing a ton of is first of all, stable coins, no-brainer, right? Like it used to be ETH ETH vaults were super popular. I still think there's a huge opportunity for Bitcoin, but stable coin yield is the killer product that everyone is adopting right now. So, that's one thing in terms of asset selection. Uh, and then what is so far the first product that we're seeing adopted by every enterprise is onchain lending, right? Whether that's across multiple protocols like Moro and a across different chains. What's really powerful about onchain lending as opposed to other sorts of yields like RWAs and things of that nature is number one, it's non-custodial, right? This is

super important. This technology is non-custodial, meaning users have the ability to withdraw whenever they want. They control their keys. Nobody can take that from them. And the second point is these things are 247, right? So take someone who's sitting on an exchange who's a trader by by day, right? That's what they do. That's why they're on this exchange. uh if they're in a yield product, it makes no sense for them to have to wait for normal operating business hours to be able to get their money out, right? And when they initiate a request to withdraw, it shouldn't take 24 hours, right? So that UX is super important. That's very cryptonative to provide this 247 experience where you're earning yield continuously. It's not paid out daily. Um and this is so it's

very simple, right? We're seeing simple products that are now being distributed globally. >> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. A and because of like the because of the perhaps whe whether it was the DeFi exploits or just the type of people coming in the market, it's shifted from you know maximizing yields to maximizing resiliency. And then obviously stable coins and rates are still relatively high. So that's been nice. And then, you know, kind of adding on top there is just this this kind of move into I don't know, it just seems like more sophisticated, more legit and just more uh substantial offerings for larger allocators. And so I, you know, just kind of coming to a close here, Johan, I mean, with that in

mind, who do you anticipate to be the depositors and users of this money account? Is it is it more of just like you and I in our MetaMask account taking a break from you know the per slot machine or is it like larger allocators? Who is it? >> Um we're definitely catering to MetaMask users first and foremost. Uh we want to obviously win their hearts and minds and we think we've built an experience that will do that. Uh we're starting with sort of how we think about Metamas users generally as you mentioned they are the typical traders but within that there is definitely sort of this persona that is a crypto as money user and so yes they're using purps and predict and swapping and sort of availing of defy protocols but at the same time they often have a very large stable coin

balance and if you sort of look at the data within metam mask they are used with very large stable coin balances and what we're focusing on is again providing that delightful experience to allow them to sort of move those stable coins into this money account and earn that yield. And so we're hyperfocused there. Um I think obviously longterm as we expand the range of features that we plan to enable within the money account beyond just this ability to auto earn and spend, we have a range of features coming out over the next quarter. I think we'll uh we'll start seeing much greater adoption and actually draw more sort of regular users outside of crypto into this experience because fundamentally we're offering better yield. uh we're offering the ability to spend that yield. So this ability to

combine checking and savings into one experience and then obviously around that the entire MetaMask ecosystem to be at the center of users financial lives. Love it. Gentlemen, congrats on the amazing partnership here and putting this together. Uh MetaMasters gets further further kind of entrenched into better products and better offerings for their users. Veta and co get a new set of eyes and depositors into their amazing vault suite. So guys, uh, pushing it forward. Uh, we're like sisfish right now. We're just going to keep pushing the boulder up and then it's going to roll back down and then we're going to push keep pushing back up and then we're going to chat in a year and there's going to be like 20 billion in this thing. So we're just going to keep pushing it up. All right, Ch.

>> Guys, thanks guys. >> All righty, guys. What do we think? We using the MetaMask money account. I I think uh Marvin says, "Are these guys worried about their hot wallets getting hacked?" I don't think so. I mean, maybe. I I think the hot wallet side of things is kind of like you can use all these products with um with a Ledger, you know, or with a treasure. Treasure. Shout out to Treasure. Let's go, Treasure. So, I don't I don't really I'm not really too too pressed, guys. Um can't lie. We need a bounce. Uh Bitcoin's looking at 583 right now. Um, hype 6466 647 honestly holding up the the breakout

level from yesterday actually looks fine. Lighter a little pullback after that tokconomics news still looks fine. Bitcoin balance would really do wonders for the guys, tell you that much. So, um, we may get it, we may not. Uh, it's a bit of a short ending today, unfortunately. So to all 25 of you on YouTube and the couple hundred watching on X, guys, give us a like, give us a follow, give us a subscribe. We are live from the financial capital of the world daily live here in the Empire State Building. I just got tickets to the World Cup game. I'm going to be going to be uh 20 rows back midfield, France, Sweden. It's going to be an insane game.

It's right over here. Stadium's just straight over there. I don't think I can see it directly, but I can see pretty close to it. Hop on a train from Penn Station. Game's at 5. It's going to be electric. It's going to be electric. I mean, come on. Come on. It's the World Cup. It's It's the round of 32. It's the knockout stage. I I can't help but think Sweden might be uh getting smoked here, but it'll be a fun game regardless. I've never seen France play. Uh so, we're going to see Mbappe and we're going to see um that other striker on the right wing who's nasty. Um uh I think Griezmann's done. I think he's retired, but he was like one of my favorite FIFA players, so I'm pretty stoked for that guy, but I think he's done now. Um,

France, Sweden, 5 PM. Uh, I'm gonna hop on Capital Flows stream. So, Capital Flows is a big like macro kind of like investor. And yeah, I'm going to hop on a stream for 20 30 minutes. Uh, I'm going to go get my pass back from downstairs. Try to squeeze a gym in. Got a call at 4. I'll take that one on the way. And we got the World Cup at 5. And then back to work after. So, I'm going have to wrap up, guys.

>> Amazing. Amazing show. Hold the line. Hold the line. We're still looking good. We're still looking strong. Hold the line. Hold the line. We got the right assets. We had a good show. We have the right thesis. Bitcoin is obviously it's obviously just, you know, doing Bitcoin things. I mean, does kind of feel like the bottom's about to fall out on it. So, not loving that. But guys, I will see you on Capitals Flow stream. I'm going to join there now. Peace out.

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