🚨LIVE: Saylor SAVED?! Market Confidence Restored? HYPE & LIT Leading! MoneyGram CEO & Infinifi CEO

Transcript

[music] [music] Heat. Heat. >> [music] [music] >> 17 floor.

[music] We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. I think [music] the rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my [music] favorite podcast. >> Adding to my library every day potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at the connect [music] day one here. I'm guessing from Bas.

[music] [music] [music] [music] Heat. [music] [music] Heat. [music] >> [music]

[music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> HE SAID IT. HE FINALLY SAID IT. So bullish. It >> is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. Heat. [music]

[music] Heat. [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music]

>> Corola [music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. [music] It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> Good morning, rollup army investors of the future. The future's generation bloodline is is responsible. You are responsible for your kids kids. Today we're going to make sure that your kids kids are going to be great. It's it's Monday. It's June 29th. We're in the tokenization tower live from the financial capital of the world. You're watching the rollup here on a nice bounce of a Monday. What a weekend for

those paying attention to this market. I mean, Anom trying to revive the trenches hyperlquid HIP4 interest ripping. Uh tokens were down. Now they're up. Sailor comes out this morning and is like, "Look guys, we're not going to sell Bitcoin, but we can sell up to$1.25 billion dollars of it if we need to." Judging by his performance on the buy side, I don't know how his performance on the sell side's going to be, guys. >> Embarrassing, >> but I'm not worried about it. Hype at 65. Perr looks great. It's 7:40 p.m. Good to see you, Rumps. Thanks for being part of the group here. Hello, Nang.

Good to have you as well. Uh, innovative investors of the future, welcome back to the rollup. It's good to have you guys back. Uh, we got another great show. Robbie's still in Peru. I haven't really heard from him much. So assuming the Iaska gods got him and got him good. They might have. They might have. There's a chance that Rob drank something that looks similar to this. But it's not called Yerba Madre. It's called something like San Pedro or Aayawasa. And there's a chance he's gone. Gone forever. But there's also a chance he comes back. He comes back with more mental fortitude than one could even imagine. He's probably riding some alpacas out there. All right, let's get

into the show for today, guys. As always, we are live in the tokenization tower. We got the markets, the weather live from New York. We had a hell of a weekend here in New York. Had friends visiting. Fun time. Tons of World Cup games. People are really fired up in the city. You got Colombians. You've got Congo people. You've got French and uh Norwegian and uh Ecuadorian and German just running around. So the whole city feels like it's it's a sports bar. I think I saw a tweet. It was like New York City in June is like a massive sports bar. It's like totally the vibe.

I mean, we were literally out outside for the Knicks game for like three weeks straight. They won like 13 consecutive games. It was unreal. And then, you know, three days after the World Cup starts. So, it's been a sports bar here in New York. Marcus and Weather live from New York. stable up episode with MoneyGram CEO, which is a kind of a kind of big thing for the rollup. You know, he's uh he's coming about and MoneyGram is really pushing into stable coins and doing a lot of work there. Infinifi's founder is going to call in after that and we're going to do markets, charts, news, micro strategy, what's happening in the markets, what we're looking at, hyperlquid and lighter leading again as I said that and stretch and what's happening here. So that's the show for

today, guys. As always, powered by our friends at Treasure. Visit treasure.io. Use code rollup10resor.io to get your treasure today. Let's get into the show. Guys, before we do, let me tell you about Fracks, our premier stable coin partner, building the future of digital money, open stable border list. Visit fracks.com to learn more about what they're doing there. Guys, it's 83 degrees. We had a heat wave in New York. It's going to be 100° Wednesday and Thursday. It's not what the boys need. Uh the show is gonna So, like the studio is like pretty chill, right? Like it's like 75 right now, but when it gets to be 100° out and that sun is coming in from here directly onto the studio, it gets hot in here, guys. So,

>> Wednesday, Thursday show is going to get changed up a bit. No show Friday, I'm going to uh take a trip for July 4th weekend. Happy Independence Day, 250 days here in the States. I know all the Europeans watching are blaming us for exporting our air conditioning, the what comes outside of the air conditioning almost like the carbon dioxide into your country causing a heat wave. But I promise you it's 83 degrees. It's going to be 95 in New York this week. It's not our fault. It's not our fault cuz it's hot here too. As always, our markets, our weather is powered by our friend at Relay. Use relay.link to start swapping assets today. Hype's breaking back above 65 as we speak. Yes, I have the five-minute chart up on my laptop. No, I

am not a degenerate. Uh, getting into the markets. Before we do, let me tell you about dinari. Building infrastructure for tokenized US equities, bringing real world stocks onchain. Do more with your stocks. Trade SpaceX now on hyperlquid spot. SPXD is the ticker. Get in there now guys. I've been saying I've been saying that Bitcoin needs to hold the line. It's going to sweep these lows under 60. Who knows how long it's going to spend under there. And then I think we're going to get a nice summer kind of low back up, you know, July and August, maybe. We'll see. We'll see how long it lasts. But I don't think we're going to the goolog right now. I don't think we're going to the goolog right now. I I think we're fine. I think people still think 60k is value, especially under 60K. I think

they'll be I think the way the market is kind of like messes with your head is like you get this chance to buy under 60. You think it's value, you get rewarded for that. Then it goes up to 80 like it did last time. Comes back down to 60. You think it's value, you get rewarded for that. My take is that it maybe goes up to like 70s, low 70s, and then it comes back again, you get you get value. This time it doesn't necessarily immediately go back up, comes back down, then you get really deep value. That's kind of what people think is going to happen. it has become overly consensus that, you know, we're going to have a little rally here and then we're going to, you know, bottom out in October. So, it's kind of a

little bit concerning if you think it's like overly consensus, right, that like, all right, we're going to have a nice summer kind of like bounce and then we're going to bottom out in Q4. But the thing is, guys like Ben Cohen and other kind of like fouryear cycle people, if you will, they've been saying this for the last eight months and nobody nobody believed them. So, it's just like now they uh they believe that it's happening because it's gotten a lot deeper into the market. So, ETH, I mean, I don't know, man. Salana looks better than ETH for sure on any sort of technical analysis perspective.

Chain link near uh also look okay. Near better. Chain link's kind of struggling but it'll it should I mean I think chain link is going to be seen as like the easiest deep value play. When you think about tokenization, stable coins, um the rise of per the rise of stratify and defy kind of converging. Yes, people will say there's no value acrruel. Yes, they need to figure that out. Yes, it's going to keep happening. But, you know, I think like chain link at seven five to seven dollars, you're going to look back in the future and like, you know, whatever half of a decade, three years, two years, and like it'll have materially increased and I think it'll be obvious. So, we'll get more into the markets, more into the

actual assets that we're holding deep size in and trying to get into what's happening here. Before we do, let me tell you about Zama powering our digital assets market. As always, zama.org or to learn more about their confidential portfolio tooling. All right, we're going to get into the news, guys. Uh, let me quickly tell you about Near, your home for building, discovering, and using apps on chain. Visit near.com. One account, no borders. Your entire financial life on chain. Looks good there. All right, guys. Let's not bury the lead here. Michael Sailor announces a digital credit capital framework designed to strengthen digital credit, enhance liquidity, and preserve long-term Bitcoin exposure and support long-term value creation. So, what actually happened here, guys? Um, well,

what actually happened, I think, is that Sailor was under a lot a lot of pressure. I mean, you got permabulls on Twitter like Kaleo. Uh, I don't know if you guys follow Crypto Kaleo. is a good friend of the show and friend of mine and he's always bullish. He's always posting these fractals that are like gigabullish and you know he he's coming out and basically saying that Sailor's done and that and that he's going to get in trouble and Sailor's screwed. But what does Sailor do? He announces this digital cap credit capital framework. He increases it's he increased the US dollar reserve by 1.2 2 billion increasing the total reserve to 2.55 billion which covers about 18 months of

the stretch dividend obligations which from my perspective is plenty of time like I said I don't think like I don't think we have much more than a quarter maybe four months left of this bare market so 18 months of dividend payments I don't think Sailor has to sell much Bitcoin I don't think he needs to I don't think he needs to um they als also raised the dividend rate of stretch to 12% to strengthen demand and support near uh to get it back trading to par. Um, let's see. What is it at now? STRC, it's at 82. So, it bottomed out 71, guys. I mean, this is what I was saying,

guys. The bull thesis right now is that the the biggest lynch pin right now is stretch getting back to like low 90s and that releasing a lot of fear and getting this markets move back to the upside. That's why I think it's still skewed in the bull's favor because I legit don't think this thing needs has to has has to fully rep. Like I actually just think that it has to get back within 10% of rep and all of the FUD and fear will go away. And so I think that's just like an easy thing to have happen. And if that's the biggest risk in the market that we're seeing, then then yeah, bro, did you get into Velvet? Like I said last week, I did not. That thing

ripped though. They were DM me on Twitter and I didn't I didn't get into the nest either, guys. I I don't know how that how that uh has moved. We'll have to look at it. Nice summer cut. Oh, yeah. I forgot you got a haircut, guys. I had a broccoli curly head before. It was getting to be the point where like I walk outside to go out to the bars or to go get some food or see some friends and I have to wear a hat because like I'm like, "Dude, I got an afro. I can't I can't be rocking this afro." And so it's, you know, once it's at the point where I have to wear the hat outside, then I'm like, "All right, it's time for a cut." Ponzi continues. LFG stretch.

Yes, Edward. Yes. Yes, the Ponzi does continue. I think we're looking okay. stretch at 82 as we speak. Hype sitting at 65. You love to see that >> lighter. I bought more lit over the weekend. >> Yeah, freedom guy. I think you're right, man. Like like it is just early. Like back the truck up on these things. Manage your own emotions. Get good entries. The lighter close on the weekly was the highest that we've ever seen. So technicals wise it looks good. I bought some more plume and near too at a boy.

So look the the uh just to close out here on sailor. Um the company authorized a separate $1 billion repurchase programs for its digital credit securities which is stretch and micro strategy shares. And as part of this Bitcoin monetization plan they can they can sell Bitcoin to fund reserves, dividends and buybacks. uh bringing the total coverage to about $3.8 billion dollars or approximately 26 months. Again, about 18 months if they don't sell any Bitcoin, which I don't think they need to. So, as we were saying last week, guys, I think I think we're good here. I think we're like out of the woods a little bit on Stretch and Sailor

and all of this. Like, I think we're fine. Uh Bitcoin's at 597. I also think that we're getting ready for a bounce on Bitcoin. I think we're getting ready for um that summer low. It may not be anything crazy explosive, but I don't think we're going to just go to hell right here. I think we're going to get a nice summer summer low. I was watching one of Benjamin Cohen's videos and every midterm year, Bitcoin has this like summer lull where it kind of like rises slowly and that's where we're at right now. So whether it's data, whether it's maximum FUD at the bottom, whatever it is, that's my take and I'm going to

stand by it. Let's keep it rolling. And and and I think this next tweet is actually like pretty um is like a pretty good example of how I feel. With each passing day, I get more and more bullish. We're getting closer to quote unquote the inflection point where everything will, broadly speaking, flip from a bearish to a bullish trend. Every day we get closer to the bare market ending. It will end. Don't listen to people who are completely bareold. If you've made it this far, well done. The hardest part is over with. Eyes on the mission. Get ready for what comes next. And that's what I've been saying to you guys. Like I think it we're we are reaching that inflection point.

I don't know if this is the bottom. I people are calling for bottom here. It's I think it's a little bit aggressive, but that's how it always feels at the bottoms. Um but I think at the worst case, we have what three to four months left. And and and I've been saying that basically a quarter left. So, you know, even if that's the case, then yeah, it's already been nine months of this bare like October 10th basically was the beginning of the bare market. So, it's been October, November, January, all the way through now to July. So, it's been it's been nine months, eight, nine months, right? And so, you know, I think I think he's right and I think we're positioned in the right assets,

guys. Um, LFG, I'm all out of dry powder. Dry powder now. Yep, I'm with you. Um, LFG, counter trend rally for Bitcoin Mio before 200E SMA retest retest in October. Yeah, we just got a weekly close on Bitcoin under the uh 200 week moving average, which is like super not great. Um, but I think that's even more of a sign for me that that the likelihood of getting some lower lows later this year is probably increased, but the likelihood of getting a bounce here is also increased. But I I don't know. Ben Cohen says he doesn't he

doesn't trade the counter uh trend rallies. He says he doesn't do it. He's like, I don't trade them. I don't like to trade them in a bare market. I just like to accumulate. He also says that like a second half of the year, so as of like tomorrow or Wednesday, Thursday, he says DCAing in Bitcoin in the second half of midterm years has been a very very sound strategy. So, just turning up the DCA, every paycheck that you guys get the next six months, every trade that you make, every winning sports bet, whatever it is, a little bit of DCA into Bitcoin, I think could work.

I think a little bit of DCA into Bitcoin, every every single paycheck, every single um winnings, anything, any big trade, put a little bit away, keep putting it away, keep putting it away, keep putting it away. And I think you'll be happy that you have like a long-term never sell, don't need to trade this stack of Bitcoin that you accumulated in what has been known to be the best time to accumulate Bitcoin. So, not financial advice as always. Nice cut, Andy. What up, new type? Thanks, bro. Base outage makes me doubt we're ready for prime time. Yeah, I don't really know. I don't really think basis outage is all that relevant or important to be honest, but I think we're still in the earliest era

of blockchains, right? And it does make you like grateful that we have Ethereum, right? If we didn't have Ethereum and Bitcoin, we I would question it all, but those two have just never gone down and you're just like, "All right, you know, we know where the actual tech is, if you know what I mean." Um, all right, guys. Let's keep it rolling into the next uh news piece. Before we do, let me tell you about Infinifi. Building DeFi infrastructure for simpler access to onchain yield, liquidity, capital allocation. To explore more efficient onchain finances, infinify.xyz.

Black rock CEO. Our biggest bull, not our black bull. Our black bull is Ansom. Our lovely black bull is Ansom. This is our white bull. Larry Frink argues that digitizing stocks, bonds, and real estate could reduce intermediaries, settlement times, and transaction costs. He is calling for a common blockchain framework to secure tokenized assets across across markets. It really does sound like Ethereum. When you like read this, when you listen to the clip, it sounds like Ethereum. Let's hear what Larry has to say. This is back from January.

So, this is like when the tokenization craze was really catching up. Let Let's play this thing on 1.25x or 1.5 XP. Please try to speed it up a little bit. Tokenization. Some people here will know it well, some people will not. So maybe you can help level set. But I think you have a view that tokenization is effectively going to change finance forever. >> Yeah. Yeah. Want to explain? >> Explain. Okay. [laughter] There there's so much conversation going on about AI and how AI is going to be reshaping the world. There's not enough conversation about how technology is going to be reshaping the financial services area too. and the need for democratization as Secretary Besson talked about the democratization of

investing in America. Um there are slews of middlemen in the whole financial services area. Uh we have elongated settlements, elongated processes. If we could digitize every asset. So if we could digitize all stocks and bonds and have it more seamless going from a digital wallet of cash or stable coin into equities or or bonds through in most categories through an ETF. Um it will be it will reduce the friction costs, the transaction costs and it allows a much more free flow. So there's $4.1 trillion dollars of money in

digital wallets globally uh sitting in stable coins mostly and can you now you know and right now if they wanted to go into a bond or stock or have a real estate transaction they have to take the money out of the digital wallet into a traditional wallet uh and have all those commissions and fees and all that stuff. So the whole idea of tokenization of of all assets including real estate ultimately is going to just reduce huge friction costs make making investing easier simpler. You could as the secretary was talking about this one account you could do this all through your app and it's going to allow a more I would say a free flowing process of investing.

>> I mean Larry's right. I mean how could he not be right? The guy's gigar. I mean he is advocating for what is going to happen and he knows like he's smart enough to know when there is a opensource pro programmable 24/7 seamless technology that you just don't get in front of that and you go and you just long it like you long it with your public credibility. You long it with your public perception. You long it with your capital. You long it with your investment thesises. Like when there's something that is just going to win and you're this experienced, you just know

that you have to get behind it. You can't not get behind it because your your reputation's on the line, your firm's performance is on the line. And so this is such a big win for digital assets industry at large because we've gotten to a big enough size where the largest allocators in the world have no choice but to create a strategy to, you know circumn this ecosystem. And so we're winning, guys. I don't know what else to say.

We're so early. It's nuts. We're going to be crazy rich. Freedom guy. Dude, Freedom Guy is hilarious, man. This guy's a This guy's got a Darth Vader as his profile. Big stream. Any thoughts on ETH becoming like an internet utility company like AT Verizon? Obviously, internet providers didn't acrue tech value from tech. Yeah. Yes, I get what you're saying. But I do like if I had to put my ETH bull cap on here, I would say I would say I would say that the the blockchain designs change the value acrruel because of the network effects that are created from all of having the most amount of stable

coins on chain, the most amount of tokenized assets on your chain, the most amount of developers, you know, transaction activity using these using ETH for gas or, you know, whatever. So, what I think is like maybe more like comparable is more of like a commodity investment. But honestly, that's the crazy thing about this is that we've never really seen an asset like Ethereum. And I know it's right now it's like the the butt of all the jokes, but we've never seen an asset like Bitcoin, like Bitcoin, like Ethereum, really like Ethereum though, that has so many of these properties and that is so different from like the internet

companies or the HTTPS companies, but is yet so similar. It's just really interesting. Um, I think you can't go wrong o owning some. Um, but but I own a lot more hyperlid than I do Ethereum. Quality assets only DCA. I mean, that's that's all we do on the show, guys. Bitcoin's back above 60. Tell man guys, I got you. I'm telling you, I don't know what to do short term. I'm not putting any leverage on, but we're not going to the goolag right now. We're not. We're going to get a move that is going to allow us to have hype and

lighter and all of our good favorite coins do well. Like I honestly I think there's a chance that hype could go to new alltime highs very fast. [cheering] >> Very fast. Sorry that Zen was just absolutely rocking me. My apologies. Um, man, if Bitcoin doesn't make a move anytime soon, it's not it's going to take out most, if not all, retail traders, and we're going to crater. OG OG killer, first of all, I appreciate your comment on the video with the AI guest. I thought that was a really fun video to to think about investing in a post AAI world. Second of all, we're not cratering. I promise. Greg says, "No

leverage." I agree, Greg. We're doing no leverage. We're not No leverage. Zero leverage on this show. Forget ETH. Let's go hype. Look, I wasn't gonna say it. I still own my Pudgy Penguin. I still own some ETH. Don't kill me. I'll buy ETH when it dips below 1K. Okay. All right. Um, you might get left behind, but there's a chance you get that 60K LFG. Bears are so Full port Bitcoin 20x. I will fly to New York and buy you a steak dinner if hype hits a new alltime high. [laughter] OG OG killer. The boys are getting a steak dinner together. W's in the chat. ETH

will flip SanDisk soon. 2K. I agree, man. I think ETH could do well. There goes hype back up. We're going to we're going to give the Bears a We're going to rip open part of their body that we're not going to talk about on the show. Bitcoin breaking above 60. Guys, I'm telling you, we're not cratering. We're going to get the summer bounce. Anson tweeted he thinks we're going to get a 10K candle on Bitcoin in a day. People were absolutely dogging him for it. I don't think we get a 10K candle, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some real strength come out of Bitcoin here, guys. Stakes, stakes, stakes, stakes, stakes, stakes. All right, let's get into Anthem because I don't know if you guys saw this, but this was insane, man. So Anthem la or somebody launched a meme called the

black bull for Anom [snorts] because Anom was just dogging on Pump Fund saying, "Guys, we need to, you know, do the airdrop. Do the airdrop. Revive the trenches. Stimmy trenches sty trenches sty." Um, and pump will just not do this airdrop. Their chart is decimated. The investor unlocks on pump are like two weeks away. Okay, so guys, as much as you see there's people saying that pump is a good buy here, at the very least, I'm saying that they that the investors and the team might try to do one of those manipulated moves pre-unlock, but I am not buying pump here. I'm not buying pump here. I'm not. And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. We can look at

the chart and we can talk about it, but I am not buying pump here. I don't know if it's a buy. It is up 4%. It did just capitulate to like all-time new lows. Maybe it is a buy. Maybe it is a buy for me to buy it. I'll show you guys a chart and walk through it with with you guys, but there's a pretty big level that it needs to break. And I don't I wouldn't hold it over hype. But anyway, Anom gets us the number one runner since like 2025, mid year, probably end of the year. We haven't had a hundred million dollar memecoin runner on Salana since like I don't even know the coming of Christ himself. Anom does it on his own on the weekend. Like I get home from the bar at like 1:30 on Friday and I'm like

a little bit buzzed. I'm just on my couch laying down. I think I put like Percy Jackson on or something. I'm watching a movie and I'm just scrolling Twitter and I just see Anom just reply guying to everyone. Like I know he's just sitting at his crib on his laptop watching his portfolio of this memecoin that he owns go to like $50 million. I was like I was like, "Bro, what?" I like responded to one of his tweets. I was like, "Dude, I just got home from the bar and you're up 300% in the last like six hours. What happened?" And so I think Anom just tweeted that he gave out $7 million of this airdrop already. Um, and yeah, so I didn't buy this, but what's happening is the people that are

buying this are getting airdrops of Anom token and other tokens and basically they're trying to create like a whole thing here where this is like the Pump Fund airdrop and they're trying to flip Pump Fun. I'm all for it. I'm all for it. I'm stoked. I think this is hilarious. I I I think it's amazing. I don't know how high it can run. It did hit 100 million already. Um and I saw MEXC listed it. See if I can find this thing. The Black Bull.

Yeah, I mean it's just it's kind of crazy. So Salana's, you know, seemingly on the on the on the revival and then also Anom saying that basically he thinks that Soul is going to really rip from here. And honestly guys, if Soul flips 79, it's going to have a big run to 120. I like I just think a lot of these charts are lining up for Bitcoin to go to 70K for alts to have a party people to think the bottoms in and then we kind of run it back turbo one more time before the bottom's actually in like it's lining up that way. But I mean guys

like Bitcoin's breaking above 60 right now and the and the and the response from hype is incredible. The response from hype is incredible. [snorts] I'm only buying AI per infra and RWA tokens from here out. I got bags of everything else. Soul is dead, man. Look, I don't know if it's dead. I don't agree it's dead, but I I don't want to own it over hype. I'll put it that way. Uh chartwise, like like obviously like narrative-wise, chartwise, there's whole different but like just chartwise, I mean hype's obviously in a multimonthl long bull trend that is more likely to continue. You know what they say, the trend is your friend until the end. and Soul has a lot of work to do chart-wise

to make it back up. If Bitcoin runs, most alts will not not move in like I don't know what you're trying to say. Alt season question mark. I mean, I think Bitcoin dominance could take a dump. It It kind of already did. Um, and it actually looks like it could go lower. So, yeah. I mean, I think we could get a nice move. I just think Bitcoin going up here is going to catch a lot of people off sides. like people are short. People are bearish and I don't I don't see it as much. So that's Anom's coin. That's Salana. That's that's the charts. That's where we're at. That's what I think. And you guys know how I'm positioned. And I think a

lot of us are positioned similarly. pipe lighter aerodrome near some Zcash Bitcoin long-term tiny bit of ETH and then like looking at coins like go and nest and some of these other ones to win even link it is use n I mean link will be all right I think link's going to survive and do all right only coins with strict real world use case utility will survive all the BS has been weeded out I agree and that's why I think it's as easy as as it is right now, guys. Like, it's never been that like it's never been this easy to be an investor. Like, it's been very hard to be a builder.

Like, actually, sorry. It's been very hard to be an investor when there's like meme coins and Bitcoin underperforming, but it's been very easy to be a builder, launch a token at a billion, two billion OTC, and make 20 million. But that's changing where it's harder to launch tokens that do well and it's much easier to invest in just the sole couple of tokens that are doing well. Pump my STRC bags so I can dump. All right. All right, guys. Let's keep it rolling into the next piece. Before we do, let me tell you about LeFi are building infrastructure for [screaming] crosschain swaps, bridging routing across onchain economy. Visit leap.fi to learn more. Um, stable dash guys have a video here about ramp and about uh

corporate spend and stable coins as well. Uh, let's let's have a quick listen here. Are you going to go to watch party for Wednesday, bro? Who is playing on Wednesday? Is it the US? Probably is the US right? Let's go ahead and play this. >> I almost worked at RAMP twice. I remember interviewing with Eric Glman at the end and I think it was the first time and Eric said something. I was asking I was like I'm a huge credit card points guy this and that and he's like no no no you don't get it like we're trying to make it to where you don't spend money like you don't not give you the 3% like just don't spend any of you don't need to spend the dollar and I don't think people realize how much more of that there is out there to be done

like they all waste money like why why that's inexcusable at this point. So, anyways, I think there's a bunch of people out there that are going to work on this sort of stuff, but >> what do you think he meant by that? He uh it's easier to your It's better for your business to save the dollar than to give you the 3% on the rewards. I almost worked twice. I remember interviewing with Eric Flyman at the end and I think it's a funny point because it's like >> pe people do like get really excited about like credit card miles and flight miles and all this and like you're just better off not spending the damn money. Like, oh, I'm going to get 4% cash back on my card. Dude, just stay home. Just just stay home. Don't

worry, man. She's going to be there tomorrow. Shh, she'll be there for you the next day. Just stay home, man. Don't spend the money. Now, I think this is more about actual like businesses and, you know, thinking about spend prevention. So, I don't have much else here. Let's get into the next thing because this ties into what what our boy Larry was saying uh earlier. Athena is excited to announce their collaboration with Black Rockck. Guys, I'm curious what you think about Athena because I have I have different views. I have several views. Uh USA is playing at 8. Yes, I will definitely be somewhere. There's going to be bars in New York are going to be absolutely electric for that game. So, yeah, we're going to be we're definitely going to be going. Um, Athena is partnering with Black Rockck to bring a

synthetic dollar infrastructure to Aladdin, which is Black Rockck's uh platform. They'll integrate USDE into BlackRock. Build is the primary asset for the white label product. And there'll be a liquidity facility on Black Rockck tokenized products. The integration of USD on Aladdin provides unique institutional access for the over 20 trillion dollars of assets managed by financial institutions on Aladdin. I mean guys like Athena is either going to go on the greatest comeback arc or they're just going to struggle to get their uh stable coin supply to previous highs. I don't know which one it is, but this is massive. This is like really

important. A whole new set of problem right now with stable coins and with um crypto assets that you want to invest in, right? The problem is distribution like Sky A Sky and Athena. These things are great, right? But unless we can get actual capital allocators at scale to be able to legally and regulatory clear path to invest into these assets and put their balance sheet into these yield generating versions of these assets, then we're just stuck with like the the existing crypto market, the

DGN's onchain and whoever else. And so like this is solving that problem. This is solving the distribution problem for Athena and I think it's massive. And if I'm thinking about the success stories in crypto so far, let's just go back to Hyperlid. What happened? They broke out. They got a license from the S&P. They got the ability to trade any asset on chain. They got distribution meaningfully with ETFs with a DAT. They got actual largecale traders on chain.

lighter talking with the CFTC, talking with the CME, NASDAQ to integrate lighter into these systems. So like what is the biggest problem with the crypto products right now? It's not breaking out into the mainstream. What did Athena just do with this? They just broke out into the mainstream. And so for me, it is a very very bullish, very very bullish uh press release for them on Monday morning. And you you you just love to see it. Bitcoin's flying. Hype's ripping. What is Athena doing?

Oh, what is Athena doing? All right, Athena got some love on this press release, 5%. But yeah, guys, chartwise for Athena, I mean, we got Athena's got about a 25% move that needs to be made followed by a a flipping of of a long-term level from February for me to even consider it really investable. Unless you're just like, you know what, home run play. Bare market's ending in the next 3 months. I'm DCAing from here. I want the best entry possible. I don't care about downside. I do. I will not enter something in the bear that doesn't have um that doesn't

have the structure chartwise to show me that there's actual strength and buyers showing up. And so I'm going to wait on Athena till we get actual strength and buyers showing up. You know where there is strength and buyers on Hyperlquid and Bitcoin right now. Hype's at 66 over 66. Bitcoin's breaking. We're going to get a big pop here on Bitcoin and all the bears are going to get cocked, man. I'm telling you guys, we're not going to the goolog right now. Sailor's announcement this morning, I think, was enough for the market to chill out. And as soon as we get a little bit of bullish action, people are going to forget. Like, people are gonna people have forgotten that Sailor is

like a lot of the reason why Bitcoin's even gotten this high. And everyone turns and hates on him. Hey, does Hype have its own stable coin? Um, it did. It had this USDH stable coin. Uh, but then it they sunseted it to focus directly on USDC following that Coinbase and Circle partnership. So, that they actually sunseted USDH and they just gave $10 million of grants to it to uh people who were affected. So, I thought that was the right thing to do and it was nice to see. And this hourly candle on hype is a beauty. All right, guys. We're going to get into the daily equity segment uh

powered by our friends at dinari getting us an eye into what's happening in the traditional markets. Get caught up there on the on the AI trade and more. Let's get into the daily equity. [music] All right. JP Morgan estimates that hyperscalers can achieve 30 to 40% lower total cost of ownership using AS6 such as Amazon's Tranium 3 versus Nvidia's GB300 systems. Uh if you guys can recall for crypto mining, for Bitcoin, AS6 are the primary hardware used. Uh they have been used in Bitcoin mining for a while.

A lot of the Chinese ASIC miners uh were the ones that uh contributed a lot to Bitcoin's hash rate. Um so Nvidia's a so basically Anthropic has committed to to running its cloud models on AWS trrenium utilizing those AS6 but Nvidia's AI accelerator revenue share is projected to decline from 85% in 2023 to an estimated 75% in 2026. This means that there is a shift in the underlying hardware that these hyperscalers are using. Uh meanwhile, there's an inference boom happening. As we all know, all of us are using AI in our daily lives, more than we ever have.

Daily token demand could reach 10 quadrillion by 2023 with inference taking up an increasingly dominant share of AI compute over training. This shift heavily incentivizes cost optimized custom silicon. As of June 26, Anthropic has has committed to roughly 10.8 8 gawatts of compute heavily heavily utilizing AWS and Google broadcom as6 driving billions of dollars into Amazon and Google's revenue backlogs. US might be 30 to 35% self-sufficient and advanced node production by the end of the decade.

So I guess the big takeaway here is Nvidia may remain the AI compute leader but hyperscalers now have strong optionality when it comes to using other platforms like AWS and AS6. So if I'm an Nvidia holder that's something that I'm paying attention to something that I'm following as I'm looking at the ratio of Nvidia and Amazon. And there are now economic incentives to shift workloads to AS6 away from Nvidia hardware into uh Amazon's hardware and more. And so something interesting, Nvidia's obviously been like the golden child of the AI boom. It's done extremely well.

Um I think right now it's trading at trading at 194. Um, a lot of us who sold crypto in 2022, uh, in I bought a house and in March of 2022, Nvidia was at $20. Um, I put almost 200k into this house. If I put 200K into Nvidia at in March of 2022, I'd be sitting on a mill and a half.

>> Yeah. embarrassing. >> And my best friend's dad was telling me about it non-stop, but I just was like, "No, I'm not buying stocks. I'm buying real estate. Fiat debasement, bro. Like, I'm trying to protect my dollar value." Little did I know, the AI boom was about to absolutely accelerate. That's our daily equity for today, guys. Custom chips are challenge Nvidia's dominance in the hardware arms race presented by our friends at at Dinari. Tokenized equities for you on chain. That's our daily equity. Let's get back into the news into crypto and more. Bybit is seizing the provision of crypto trading services to all users residing in the European economic area effective immediately. Bybit directs clients to

Micah's licensed EU entity. Same thing's happening with Binance. Guys, to all the Europers out there watching this, you guys are really struggling right now. and and the regulatory hoops that are requiring to hop through here are are just insane. And you you know who loses with this type of stuff? It's the European consumers. That's who loses.

It's the European consumers who lose. It's the European GDP of countries who loses. It's the tax It's the tax dollars that aren't going to go to Europe because they can't trade crypto in the next bull run. You'll have the last the last laugh, bro. Don't worry. I hope so. If you put 200k into ETH instead of a house, you would now have 100k. Yeah. Hey, I guess there's some solace in these things. Like me. Edward. Edward, I know you like Lighter more than Hyperlid because you're just like a ETH ETH aligned. Like you just like you see the exit hatch that Lighter has in the tech and you're

like, "Oh, better tech ETH L2 ETH aligned. I'm buying Lighter instead of Hyperlid." And for a while there, you were you were underperforming. But what was once the beta, I saw a tweet, it was like, "Can it be the beta if it has better tech? And I don't know, it's pretty good take letter at 1.73 right now, guys. I don't think it spends much more time under $2. Not financial advice, but we've been talking about it for a while on the show. It's at 1.73. Don't think it spends much more time under $2.

Why don't we get into uh actually let's get into yeah a little bit more about Sailor's announcement. So, let's ahead and scroll down here into uh or let's get into Deli here and the strategy news that I want to, you know, just kind of make sure that we're all on the same page on about. Uh so, let's go ahead and flip. Uh so, Strategy recently announced its Bitcoin monetization uh program that was today. Uh a framework that authorizes the company to sell Bitcoin to fund the pre preferred dividend bill and finance preferred buybacks. And so if you scroll all the way down, uh there is a there is a um chart here that we can pull up and kind of look at a bit more

and just try to understand a bit like what the what the dynamics are. Like [snorts] there's quite a bit of dynamics happening here with um basically the different shareholders in strategies regime. Can we make this a little bit bigger or no? Um, and in these dynamics, you have the uh owners of strategy, you have the owners of Bitcoin, and the owners of Stretch. And the thesis here, guys, is basically like, can Sailor play these games where he's able to keep all three shareholders happy? Like, can he keep everybody happy in the in the game?

Right? So you got like the stretch holders who want to get the yield. You've got the strategy uh shareholders who don't want to be diluted. And then you've got the um the uh Bitcoin holders who obviously just want number go up, right? And so you've got like the different scenarios here of sideways Bitcoin appreciates or draw down. And I mean the TLDDR here, guys, is Sailor is fine. I think the FUD is overblown.

I think it's really ironic that the FUD on Sailor and strategy happens right at the 58K to 60K level. I think we'll look back in several weeks and we'll see that this FUD was kind of marking the bottom. And basically there's one path that works out for Sailor and that is number go up. It's Bitcoin appreciates, Bitcoin per share growth resumes, the dividends paid on schedule and stretch goes back to the par and everything's okay.

Anything but that, you know, stretches Michael Sailor's positions. Even if we just go sideways rangebound, we don't we don't get a a a rep of stretch, it's a problem. Obviously, if we go down, Micro Strategy collapses, Bitcoin collapses, and Stretch doesn't get back to par. That's obviously also a big problem. And so, look, there's one path for Sailor. It's number go up. Again, guys, if you listen to us, you think that we have a quarter left in this bare market, a quarter or so, maybe less.

and you think that he's going to be all right and you think that stretch getting back to 90ish is the bull case for us to at least get a summer bounce and that we're going to get that back to 100 at some point may not be till the end of the year may maybe over summer and that this FUD is overblown and it was a really good marking of the sentiment lows at the bottom and so that's what we think that's what we're saying And we're going to continue to express our positions based on this understanding that Sailor Stretch and Micro Strategy are not going to zero.

He's not getting liquidated. And uh we're going to continue to hold our our assets that have been outperforming. Namely, Bitcoin itself, Hyperliquid, Lighter, Zcash, Near Aerome, sprinkling a little bit of Zama, a little bit of JTO, a little bit of um you know, some other kind of favorite things that you like. and we're just going to continue to believe that this the summer balance is coming and whether or not the bottom is in uh that is that is not really our main prerogative currently because the high time frame charts of the assets that we own look very strong.

They look very strong and I'm talking about the liquid book, right? Like our venture book, I mean that's a whole another story. And those are just hodddle on. Those are just huddle on for dear life and continue to just kind of, you know, huddle on. Like those are like fiveyear bets. A lot of them are smashed. Etherfi, um, Mirror Network, Plasma Plume um, you know, like the like like the list goes on. But those are like very long-term holds and those will be those will likely recover in the next bull. I don't know if those will recover like our liquid bags will this year. All

right, guys. Last thing before we get the MoneyGram CEO up. Uh it's going to be a great episode. We have the CE of Moneygram today, which is sick. Massive financial services company. Um huge. And they're launching their own stable coin, doing a whole bunch of things. So, it's going to be a good conversation. But let's get uh this last post up real quick for Robin Hood chain. I think this is some interesting interesting little data analysis. So Robin Hood chain coming this week. Some people are already bridging and shitcoining on it. Very curious to see how this one goes. Looks like it's going to be heavily RWA focused. Was able to confirm 90 stocks and nine ETFs will be will be live day one. Full l full leaked list of tokenized stocks. So there's a ton here coming for Robin Hood chain. Defi summer is approaching but with per. Yes, I

agree. um ETFs also here and then you can kind of see some of these GitHub repos that our onchain sleuth ultra has found. So whether Robin Hood chain or not is coming guys I do have some intel but I do believe there will be an announcement involving Robin Hood this upcoming week or two. Um, I cannot say what it is about, but I will tell you guys that um our the companies that we like are doing great things and they're expanding their distribution and more to come on that.

Let's get the last one up here of of RE Protocol. All right, so RE Protocol launched by uh guys, I was just typing that's alpha by the way. RE protocol opens governance to the public. They launched their token for their reinsurance. Uh they launched June 18th uh with about $600 million of TVL. They they touched up to a billion. We had their CEO on the show before and after I was telling you guys about it. Um it looked really good. um it was super strong and they have done an incredible job of managing their launch and I think that that they're going to do an incredible job of figuring out how to scale um figuring out how to scale what's coming with their business and

bringing it more on chain and then figuring out the the the uh tokconomics side of things. So they're going to figure out the tokconomics, they're going to figure out how to redistribute a lot of the value that they've, you know, created and are creating and are scaling onchain back to the token. And I think this is like one of the sleepers. You know, we have been working with them for a while. So, I am biased a little bit here. I think it's a great coin. I think it's a good I think it's a good it's a good company. It's a good CEO. And so, we're we're going to see kind of what comes from this in the coming months. We need them to place a strong focus on their tokconomics. And that's what I'll say there.

And guys, we've got the CEO of MoneyGram ready to join the show for Stabled Up today, our weekly stable coin show. It's going to be absolutely epic. Anthony Suhoo, CEO of MoneyGram. I mean, this is pretty sick for us, right? Like, obviously, we're like a crypto show, finance show, but I mean, MoneyGram is huge. Like, let's just let's just do some quick uh Moneygram financial stats. So, they made $1.25 billion in 2025. They're projected to make more

than that in 2026. Are they public? They got to be public. >> Wow. >> And they're launching a stable coin. It's no longer a public trade company. It went private June 1st, 2023. They were acquired by private equity firm Madison Dearborn Partners for an allcash transaction valued at approximately $1.8 billion. >> Wow. >> Wow. Wow. All righty. Uh well guys, we're going to take a super quick break. We're going to get Anthony set up and we'll be back with Anthony Su, the CEO of Money Graham here on the rollup. Be right back, guys.

[music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

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[music] [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. Show is made possible by FRA and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet, powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stablecoin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up, our weekly stable coin show.

[music] All righty, guys. Welcome back to Stabled Up, episode number 39, our premiere weekly stable coin show powered by our friends at Frack. Visit frack.com to learn more about what they're doing with FRXUSD and more. Today we have Anthony Suhoo, chairman and CEO of Moneygram, appointed in October 2024. He's leading the company's digital transformation and stable coin initiatives. Uh drawing on 25 years of technology experience, Walmart, other Fortune 100 companies. Anthony, great to have you, man.

>> Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me. >> Most definitely, man. I mean, what a what a time to be bullish on tokenization and stable coins in this market. I mean, while while we have so much riff around Michael Sailor and around what the price of Bitcoin is going to be or whether Stretch is going to blow up, we have this mega mega mega super trend happening of tokenization and stable coin growth. And so, Anthony, I know it's your first time on the show. um CEO of Moneygram. Would love just get an understanding a bit about uh your background, what what your kind of like main prerogatives are uh at MoneyGram and then let's let's kind of discuss this mega trend and we'll get into all

the nuances. >> Yeah, sure. I mean uh a little background on myself. I spent my whole career actually in technology. Maybe to even go back, I uh I grew up in my byproduct of the of Silicon Valley. I grew up in San Francisco, learned to program when I was 12. And then I spent the first part of my career in in tech working at companies that you might have heard of like uh Apple, Yahoo, uh early days of search engine, leading search engine called Inc. to me. And then the second part of my career, I've actually used that knowledge because of a startup I that I started got acquired by CBS and I helped them transform into streaming.

And then it led me to lead the digital transformation at uh at CVS as well as uh Walmart. And the reason uh I ended up at at MoneyGram is because when I looked at all the transitions that happened say from uh the internet boom to the movement to mobile and cloud and everything that had happened on ecom you know I saw the same opportunities here in terms of money movement globally uh similar to maybe the way you and I would think about these platform shifts which was a way to operate the network a lot more efficiently to bring down the cost but also just drive mass adoption. I I think that the the point you bring up

about so much noise in uh in the current market's really true, but if you think about long-term where this stuff is going, I think you and I can probably agree that there's probably nothing more clear that like currency is going to go more digital. I think tokenization is going to be happening everywhere. And the question is how do you take advantage of that? And that's kind of why I joined Moneygram. >> Yeah. Yeah, man. I mean, a lot of these shifts have happened simultaneously, right, with regards to the shift towards e-commerce, the shift from analog to digital when it comes to stock trading, the shift, you know, now with AI and and and kind of like what that's happening or, you know, what what that's causing

it. And looking at the, you know, kind of blockchain shift, I suppose. Um what what was the kind of light bulb moment for you when you kind of came to MoneyGram your previous experience um you're looking at a business here that you know has done billions of dollars of revenue annualized consistently you're looking at this kind of trend of blockchain and this growth of 247 global markets whether it be for settlement for uh crossber for remittances etc. What was kind of the clear light bulb? I have to join Moneygram Graham. I think this is the way that I can really make an impact in the company. What was that for you personally?

>> Well, I spent a number of months looking at the opportunity. I think one of the things that's really appealing about financial services, especially payments, as it goes online is the margins get better. Uh what I would say that most people lose sight of is whenever you go most digital transformations when you go digital from analog, you actually lose margin. Best example uh is when you think about uh you know client serverbased software that goes to SAS they actually lose money or lose margins. When you think about e-commerce the easiest example to use is when you have to ship a box at someone instead of them walking into your store to fulfill you lose margin. But when you think about tokenization and you think about digitizing payments your margins actually go up because the business gets

a lot more efficient because you're running on much more efficient rails. And there's also with what you brought up about AI, you have the benefit of leveraging AI for a lot of orchestrations over time that also just kind of improves. So I've I think that the exciting thing is when you think about most transformation, they're typically off of like one platform shift. You know, we brought up PCs, we brought up the internet, brought up cloud, mobile. We're talking about two or three right now, all happening convergingly at the same time. You're talking about uh digital currency with blockchain. You're talking about the movement with AI and you're also talking about uh agent commerce and I think that all three are going to really change the landscape about how consumers uh conduct business and commerce online and then

the second part is how businesses operate on their back office. >> Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. So, so when you move from when you move payments businesses from kind of the traditional system a wired transfers I mean we've heard this a trillion times right stable coins are far better you actually you you gain margin like I think Western Union is gaining a huge huge b huge amount of revenue from you know having their own stable coin using it as well similar to money but in other transitions you're saying that you actually you basically don't make more money, you actually lose. And so this transformation is is specifically special in that regard.

Then I was going to get into some of the some of the pointed questions here. Why launch your own stable coin? Why not just use, you know, circles USDC, Tethers, USDT? Doesn't having your own stable coin, um, and using somebody else's or a a variation of it, doesn't it not achieve the same purpose in terms of cheaper costs, uh, 247 global, what is having your own stable coin enable you to do? >> That's a great question. So, let's just take a step back. So we actually have been working with Circle for a long time and we continue will work with Circle because we use uh uh we use our coin USDC for a lot of our products including how we settle with Treasury and we use

other types of uh of uh coins according that way. The our our announcement at MGUSD maybe the thing that's different about this versus what everyone else has done is that we actually launched it for our own network for our own benefit. We didn't launch it specifically for institutions or trading. Uh so MGUSD is being used specifically for our consumers. And you might ask, you know, why do you want to operate and why do you want to own that? Well, if you and there's some stuff I can get into, but some stuff I rather hold off on for the time being, which is if you think about kind of how vertical integration works, there's a reason why over time I think Apple wanted to uh own their own microprocessors inside their phone. It's

better for how they operate and integrate power management. They can build specific applications that leverages the best benefits of the chip. We see we actually launch our own coin for our own network that there was a lot of benefits of that in terms of building a using it as a foundation to build out uh applications that we're going to be launching for our consumers in the future. So that was a main driver about it. [snorts] You know, at the end of the day, I think you and I can probably agree. Most consumers won't care about what chain you're on. They just want to know that I want to make sure that I send money in the most efficient way. I save money, I save effort, and I save time doing it. And if I can earn a some type of reward on it, that's even

better. And if you can get it there quicker and you can do tracking better and you have, you know, you can lower the cost in terms of doing so because it's within your own stack, that's even better. And that's kind of the thought process we went through. >> Yeah. And and obviously there's the economic side of it with regards to the treasury bills and the yield as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. And some of that we, you know, we'll look for ways to, as we save money and we have a much more efficient way we can run treasury, we'll try to pass all those savings back to the consumer.

>> Yeah. So, I've never used Moneygram or Western Union or any of these types. I've always just been like, I don't know, Wise or PayPal or just using stable coins to send stuff global. Like, we have global employees. We've just been paying them in stable coins or crypto for five years. you know, anytime anytime that there's like any sort of payment, it's typically for for me it's usually with somebody who's gonna accept stable coins on on the other side just kind of in a native fashion. Maybe you could just help us understand the direct unlock by walking us through a bit of like what a what a typical consumer journey or you know uh actions are on Moneygram and then what that kind of like implementation has looked like from

the stable coin side and really like what you're seeing from the consumer preferences user data as far as like you know whether it's time spent on the app or higher satisfaction or you know cheaper rates kind of talk us through what the consumer journey is and then these implementation details and some of the outcomes. >> Sure. I mean uh I'll I'll share with you a use case of how people use it today and then maybe what I'll do is I'll talk about the the ways we believe people use in the future and you know one of the things uh in terms of new use cases we just signed a big partnership with Kraken where we're their cash offramp for that and I'll explain why that partnership is exciting for both of us.

So when you when if we take a step back, the typical moneygram user is a person that is working overseas. It's trying to send money, large majority of them sending money back home. It's a market called the remittances space. And what they typically do, it's an ongoing uh transaction where every few weeks they are sending a a set of funds back to their families back home to pay bills. Um, and typically when that's happened, uh, where it originally started was through a cash network in the physical location. And so they would walk into a Moneygram location, let's just say here in the US, and then they wanted to send money back home to Guatemala. And that would be a cash to cash transaction. And

we do that very well. I would say, you know, we have just a sense of close to 500,000 retail locations around the world. To give you a sense of how big that is, that's uh that's bigger than McDonald's, Subway, Chipotle, and uh and Cabba I think combined by a factor of like five. So that's amount of scale is massive. And that still serves a big purpose. And when you say, you know, people are going digital, don't why they still need um a a physical location? Well, >> the idea of sending money is uh there's high level trust here that we're talking about and when you're sending funds, especially if you're in a foreign country, a lot of times you want to talk

to someone who speaks your language and also you can look the person in the eye before you send it. I would say that that needs actually going to come up even more in the future as uh the ideas of uh deep fakes propagates. You're going to want to know that your transactions should be very trusted. Now uh over the last 5 years I think MoneyGram's really pushed and in terms of trying to make sure that we offer the uh option of a consumer who wants to transact through an app and we launched uh the what we call MGO or Moneygram online where they can transact through either an iPhone or an Android phone through the web or our apps to send money to appear and they can either pick up a physical location, get their funds

sent to a bank account, uh have it sent to a debit card, all those type of things that you might typically think of but it is a crossber transaction. Um, and when we talk about cross border, what makes it more complex than a typical transaction? Well, as you know, we work in a highly regulated industry and when you're talking about sending money from one country to the next, you're not being regulated by one side. You're being regulated by both sides. And then you have to go through a complexity and mazes in terms of orchestration, which we all try to hide the complexity from our consumer. And all they need to know is they send from point A to point B.

But between there there's a high level of information needs to be captured in terms of KYC in terms of making sure that the transactions are cleared and safe uh going through our ML checks and then uh once that transaction happens we do it within seconds. We try to send it for most best case situations from point A to point B in seconds and it gets settled. When we talk about stablecoin, the thing that changes is that idea of sending from point A to point B is going to be that much faster because you're now talking about 24 by7 instant payments. You're also talking much more direct way of sending. And as especially as you think about AI as an orchestration agent to allow sends to um

go from one place to the next, I think what you're going to find is that that kind of traffic cop of uh that orchestration layer, it's going to be a lot more efficient with AI. [snorts] Um and then let's take a step back and I'll add one more point. So you're like since you know you feel very comfortable with uh stable coin, you're sending person to person in a safe way. Why do you actually need these cash locations? A lot of times though in a lot most economies around the world uh cash is still the dominant way that commerce gets done. So you can imagine when you think about other countries there's cash discounts. I was recently in Italy they actually wanted more cash than uh in terms of transaction you actually get 5%

less when you do that. Every penny matters for a lot of people around the world. So that is also one of the reasons why in if you stay within the crypto arena sending if you're transacting from crypto to crypto it's perfectly safe and great if you can do that but when you need to convert to cash that's where you run into the first hangup which is why I think Kraken was so excited to partner with us and why we're so excited to partner with them is because anyone in any of their cryptocurrencies that they transact online if they wanted to convert that within the Kraken app and say I want a cash payout, they can do so. They can go to one of let's just say the 5,000 Walgreens location or Walmart locations around the world or specifically in the

US right now where they can then do a cash out of their crypto to cash in terms of conversion. So all those reasons why I think if you rethink the network and the use cases for it, what we wanted to do is think about ourselves less like a remains company much more this is a global payments path platform. So, what can we do with this global payments platform beyond what we've traditionally done? And I think that's a big part of this rebounding we're going through. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and on the blockchain specific side here on the stable coin side, um you know, obviously Kraken has has is now a big partner when it comes to facilitating the stable coin transfers for uh MGUSD and previously

USDC. what what is the underpinning infrastructure that you guys are using uh on the blockchain side on the uh protocol side if you're moving funds across different blockchains um can you just give us a bit of an insight into like what Moneygram is using to move stable coins what what what blockchain networks what tools what kind of digital asset infrastructure are you guys using under the hood >> so I think on the consumer wallet when we're talking about MGSD and by the way we see ourselves as really building out an open network. So what you see is that we just signed a deal. We're the we're the validator for Tempo.

>> Uh we're also a validator I think for Salana that got ma announced last week and you'll probably see us do a lot more in the arena without announcing anything too early. But what I would also say is that when you think about the consumer >> uh MGUSD product that we're talking about that operates on the stellar network on their ledger. Um the the way we do issuance on that is through bridge slstripe and then uh our smart contract infrastructure is managed by uh M0. Um and uh we go about you know orchestrating between each of these areas. And then you know in terms of uh the security of it as well as doing the custodial part we uh leverage Fireblocks >> and so all of those I think are leading

firms that we use for specific purposes. We think for instance M0 it's just really in our mind bestin-class in terms of doing smart contracts especially in terms of what we do. I think uh you know what we are doing with uh uh with uh stripesbridge you know they were we looked at a bunch of partners and they appear for us we were very excited to work with them on that issuance part and so when we assemble it what you have is where we are still doing a lot of the I would say the coordination >> but when you think about the issuance of it we hand that out to bridge and then on the smart contracts we give it to M0 and it's all run on that a stellar blockchain that we've been partners with

for about five years. Um, and we're excited about that. That's one use case. I think in the futures as you think about Treasury, which you alluded to, we'll, you know, we'll specifically look for different use cases for them too. And we do, by the way, still transact especially on the back end in terms of settling with USDC still as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. And then on the validator side, obviously to be, you know, a a Salana validator, you do need to hold a soul stake and, you know, stake it. Um, similarly on Tempo, they're obviously pre-token, so it's a bit of a different dynamic. And then Stellar, you you didn't mention that it is a proofof work chain, so it's a little bit different.

Um, but is this going to be part of like the distribution and go to market strategy then for MoneyGram? like accumulate uh tokens based on networks that you guys want to be a part of or affiliated with that you are excited about longer term. Become a validator. Uh kind of have a stake in the network, help govern it, help be a part of it in the early days and kind of signal your let's say for lack of a better term alliance to what's being built here. >> I think that what you said is correct.

Maybe a different, you know, another angle I would say that we're thinking about it is that we're excited about the world as it moves to digital and the best thing we want to do is operate in an interoperable way on an open network. And I think for our consumers, what we're going to do is find the best blockchain and the best infrastructure for their use case in mind. What we do know is that however way we used to do it will over time evolve into something that's smarter, faster, and much more costefficient. And if that's the case, the way to do that is by moving everything to digital currencies and blockchain. And so we'll find the best use case. We might find that honestly

what based on our trading partners that there's a blockchain that we're currently not even talking about that works better for treasury in a country like India or something like that as our vendors. But uh what we have done so far is that uh on blockchains that we feel excited about we want to have uh participate as part of the community to make sure that we help and I think these validators is a good first step but there's many other things that we can do in terms of contributing to these networks. >> Yeah. you know, part of this uh larger digital shift of digitization. I just had like a Larry Frink clip play about tokenization and just speaking about how it's so obvious that the ease and efficiency capabilities of, you know, digitizing a lot of parts of finance.

It's just like the world tends to move where there's seamlessness, right? It's just like it's just like we humans are designed to go towards more seamless infrastructure. This has happened over time. it'll continue to happen. When it comes to kind of building out that that broader idea, what a lot of companies have done, Anthony, is they've they're trying to become like the super app. So, your wallet is where you have your stable coins where you send your remittances, but there's also prediction markets on there. There's also per you can also buy and sell spot tokenized equities commodities securities crypto. Um, you can stake, you can earn yield on these. Then they have a card.

So, you have your your card attached to it and all of a sudden you've got, you know, this entire all-in-one everything app and and it feels like every fintech services company is competing to be the everything app, which to me feels like a little bit of an interesting dynamic where maybe you don't do that. Maybe you just really specialize in one area or you compete on that big stage against the Robin Hoods, the Coinbases, the Revolutes etc. What do you see as MoneyGram's unique advantage here in this kind of classification? And like is there a future where we can trade crypto on MoneyGram and we'll have a card and tokenized equities and kind of more in that everything app direction. What do

you think about that from a philosophical business economic lens? >> What I would say is that uh I think our sweet spot uh so far as we think about our user base is that we have we actually have a massive trust and a massive customer base. We have 60 million active customers on the Moneygram network globally which uh are typically customers that have been underbanked because up to this point delivering services to them have been I would say uh inefficient and difficult. We also work in an environment uh where we're heavily regulated. So I wouldn't be able to comment if we're going to do anything like in a prediction space or not. But what I will say is that when you think about the promise of owning that whole stack, our goal is let's

offer and democratize finance for people around the world who might have potentially been left out of uh getting being included in terms of all these financial innovations that has happened up to this point and give them access in many ways that Amazon has done in the past by opening up commerce and others. you know, the point you brought up earlier about like wh why do people need all these services? We'll we'll study and and look hard and figure that out over time. I do want to say that uh in the beginning of any I would say technology revolution you always find people say why do I need that? I remember when Amazon first came out, people were like, why do I need shipping in two days? And they were like this all you had a lot of retailers that would

say you, you know, why is 10 days not fine? In the old days, if you remember, there's this great uh Tom Watson Jr. quote that said, you know, the market for a PC is not more than five people we can see that will actually need it in their home. And so, I think we're just kind of going through that. But if you take a look at where this stuff's going long term, it's clear as night and day to me that uh the where the world's going and that's a future we need to uh build towards and not you know get influenced by the day-to-day noise in the space. >> Yeah. So just coming back to like the stable coin and payments part of of the business and you know you you you explained how at least at the top of this you explained the transition from

analog to digital or you know similar uh industries but you know different outcomes with regards to the profit margins whether they've been squeezed or expanded. When it comes to implementing MGUSD and stable coins into the payments offering, what does this actually enable economically for MoneyGram? How much like are you guys thus like by saving a bunch of cash? Are you guys earning more on the top line revenue-wise? Aside from the payments experience and the quality of the experience economically speaking, what what was the incentive to do this?

And if you get it right, what does that economically mean for the business side of Moneygram? >> Well, I think uh the most important thing is first, it's really early for me to give you any pro uh predictions about where we are right now, but what we would say is that the promise of what we plan to do is that we believe it's going to allow us to draw uh run more efficiently, especially with our float. It's going to allow us to lower the cost to operate. Um, and it will allow us to settle much quicker and as a result, it's going to allow us uh I think really quickly to if we see savings, we're going to be able to pass that on. So, we can talk about an industry where you know a customer would be charged one, two, sometimes 3% for a send and lower

that by 50% if not more over time. What I do believe is if we get this right bec and the way we think about MGUSD is that we are trying to verticalize the whole thing is that we're going to build a much deeper customer relationship because we're going to build services on top of the MGUSD which will increase the lifetime value on it which will in the long term drive much higher revenue for us and much higher margins because we're going to have deeper relationships with these consumers. The key thing in any financial service is it's not uh trying to win one transaction but really to try to win that customer relationship over a number of years. That's why you know you see so many banks in the space today and traditionally have offered customers a certain amount for free checking. Well,

it still cost them a lot of money to operate those checking but if they can keep your balance there means a lot. And I think it's the same thing's going to kind of play out uh when we talk about stablecoin. >> Yeah. Do do you see a future where Moneygram would put Bitcoin on its balance sheet? >> Uh I don't want to predict too far ahead, but based upon where we are right now, my answer is probably no. Um just because I think there's a lot of regulatory reasons why we would not do that for the time being. Uh but that being said, you know, there is a lot of reasons why we would have MGUSD on our balance sheet and I could suggest taking other types of stable coins on our balance sheet as we convert them in and out because what you even if we have

MGSD, we we are not naive to think that's the only stable coin we're going to trade. So what you're going to have to do is think about how you how you link these crosschains and cross currencies back and forth on stables. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, coming to kind of like how you're thinking about where where the business goes from here with stable coins with MGUSD. Um, you know, we've we're in the middle of the regulatory hurdle right now for blockchain and for this industry. Uh, there's going to be another Clarity Act hearing on July 17th. Uh, so, you know, couple weeks away, three weeks away.

when it when you think about what you guys need to really fully unlock what you're trying to do from the vision side um regulatory speaking Genius obviously has been passed but it's kind of in the stages of implementation um not exactly implemented in the in the way that I think all of us have expected quite yet but it's it's a process and then clarity obviously being the big one when it comes from the money grant perspective about moving forward moving faster faster getting deeper into uh using these payment networks, using blockchains. What What do you need to see from Genius, from Clarity? Are there obstacles, holdups that are kind of holding you guys up from moving right

now on the regulatory side? What's your kind of highle view on here's where we're at. You know, if we get clarity through Genius Act fully implemented, here's where we can kind of go. How do you think about what's happening up in DC? Yeah, like any type of regulation, people that work in a regulated industry, when you have any level of clarity, no pun intended, you can operate a lot faster. I think in this case, uh providing a better understanding of where things sit in terms of rewards, I think where things sit in terms of what we want to what the framework is within the guard rails of how we operate within stable coin is going to be massively important. Then that being said, the one thing that's

different about 30 act and that's only applies to the US is that we will have a framework and then we're going to want to use that to be able to interoperable within the countries that we operate within because we're connecting the world. We work in over 200 countries, 20,000 corridors. So there's a lot of permutations you can probably imagine. By the way, that complexity is a mode for us >> because it is so complex that you have to uh uh operate within. And I would say that as we build that clarity, it's just going to be one more step forward. I would say that, you know, not to lose sight, the Genius Act provided a huge amount of confidence of how we could operate at least taking that first step.

And so it gave us a lot of assurances about, you know, when we talked about our partnership with Bridge, what we needed to ask them for and what they needed to be compliant to and what we're building towards gave us clarity in terms of that. And I think it's going to probably dictate the same way. What h usually happens is when a bill gets passed, there's a level reaction that would take a little bit of time for that to play out. And I think that's what we're really seeing with the Genius Act. I hope the same thing happens with Clarity. >> Love it. Anthony, last thing for you from my side. boldest prediction for financial services apps as a result of stable coins in the next couple of years, Aentic Finance, stable coins, blockchains, tokenized assets. What is the what is kind of like the tipping

point? What is the zero to one? What is a bold prediction about where apps and companies like yours are headed? Well, maybe what one thing I would te tell you is that when you think about a gentic commerce uh that we talk about, I uh I think that at some point those people are going to get registered. They the Gentic agents are going to probably get uh registered to a real ID before they can actually transact. So, we know actually how to handle returns and who's actually transacting. >> That's my personal feeling about where things are going when you ask me about 2030. It's going to be an exciting space. No one's talked about that, but the the level of you know what we have right now is the wild west of the early days of cookies online if you remember

like who cared on your browser and then it became a really sore topic >> or point. So as you play this out over the next five six years I think that that's where it's going to go and it'll be really interesting to see how the space evolves. >> Anthony, I appreciate your time. Best of luck. uh congrats on launching MGUSD and we love to have uh more financial services companies coming into the space taking it seriously doing things the right way and utilizing the amazing technology that has been built here. So appreciate your time Anthony and uh have a great week. Hope it goes well for you and um it's a it's a bull market for stable coins man.

>> Yeah in the long term like I said I completely agree with you. We just have to drown out the daily noise. Uh we are bullish as anyone else, but appreciate you having us on and >> let's get some Bitcoin on that on that balance sheet. All right, come on now. Come on. All right, [laughter] Anthony. See you, buddy. Cheers, man. >> All right, bye. >> Let's get some Bitcoin on the balance sheet, boys and girls. All right, great episode there. Fun fun conversation again. Like I mean these large types of companies coming into the space and just absolutely utilizing the underpinning technology of stable coins, of 24/7 payments, of global remittances, of scaling, of low cost, efficiency, speed, all of it. It's just impressive. And you just And you just love to see it. You

just really love to see it. So [snorts] it's it's good. It's good. It's really good. Wow. Hype's at 66.5. What just happened on that on that segment, guys? You guys were just pumping it without me. You guys were pumping it without me. >> You guys are doing that to me, though. You guys are pumping it without me. What's going on? I thought thought we were tight here. Um, MoneyGram just followed us on X.

245,000 followers with the quote tweet on Anthony. Let's go, [screaming] man. Got to love to see it. Japan up one zero on Brazil. Oh my gosh. Gosh, I want to smash Brazil to come back. I just can't. I just can't. I just can't. I just can't. I just can't. I just can't. I can't. I can't. My My friends are blowing me up about it. [snorts] Don't sleep on Japan. Wow. First round of the World Cup knockouts. Canada wins the first one, huh? Canada.

All right, guys. Up next, we have um Rob from Infinifi. I think he's almost ready. And then we're going to get into the markets, into the charts, into what's going on out there. You guys are pumping it when I'm not paying attention. Appreciate that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Really thoroughly appreciate that. Wow. Zcash up 8% as well. back to 400. Near up four and a half, hype up 8% today. Wow. Hype really held that trend and and it's holding on strong. Bitcoin holding above 60. I think that's what we really wanted to see, guys. Um I think there's a lot of bears who are saying

that we're not going to get anything but 54 or 52K. Obviously, we're not even close to out of the woods yet long term, but our summer bounce thesis is is looking pretty decent, guys. It's looking pretty decent. So, all right. What's going on in the chat? I was wrong. Walmart should create their own stable coin, create a new payment bullies. Will MoneyGram eventually allow customers to swap tokens outside their stable coins? I think I kind of asked that. It sounded like yes. Sounded like yes, they were going to be doing the everything app play as well.

Frack's going to rip faces off when it pumps. Only 100 million tokens. Shout out FRA, sponsor of the show. Great team, long time standing. They're doing a lot of big deals behind the scenes for getting their stable coin integrated into uh some pretty large companies out west in the States, actually. I'll put it that way. So, pretty exciting, man. What is uh what is Anomscoin at? Gecko. I like Gecko terminal. By the way, I've just started to use it.

Guys, if you remember that Nest token that we were looking at last week, Loki, I think it might be might be a play right now. We'll see. What is it called? Black Bull. Checking in real quick and then we'll get Rob up. Dude, it's still up. It's not going down. I think this is it. Yeah, this is definitely it. Yeah, it's still up. Crazy. All right, guys. We've got Rob Montgomery, the founder of Infinifi. He is going to walk us through the updates from his side.

Um, seeing what's happening in the stable coin market, in the DeFi market. Uh we're obviously seeing the growth of tokenized assets and I think that's kind of like the main that's the main kind of viewpoint for us in the market at large for a lot of these DeFi companies. How do you capture that value? How do you stay on top of that value etc. So what why don't we get Rob up here in just a couple seconds guys and then we'll get into the market and the charts after Rob. Uh hype 66.2 two huge hourly close.

I know you guys aren't like as much of TA fans as I am, but we've gotten now one hourly close above the 200 SMA, which is like the longest standing SMA. Takes a while. 2-hour close above the 200 SMA. And we got a 4hour close. And we're about to get a 4-hour close over the 100 SMA, putting us back above all the moving averages, which will bode well for shortterm price appreciation. Obviously reliant on Bitcoin, but we needed that and we needed to see that and that's what we got. So, we're looking pretty good here, guys. Let's get into our next guest, Rub. We're going to bring them up and we're going

to talk DeFi scaling, Infinifi updates there, and really the growth of tokenization as the main driver for a lot of these DeFi companies and driving their revenue, driving their TVL, their users etc. Let's bring them up. Rob, what's going on, man? Welcome back to the show. >> Good to see you, buddy. >> I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Um, how are you, man? been doing quite well. It's a wild market out there, but we are continuing to push pretty good rates for our users. So, >> bullish. It is wild market. Everyone's screaming at Sailor, worried about this the AI boom coming down, worried about

everything. So, um what is happening though, Rob, is there's this massive growth in the acceleration of tokenizing assets. Last or two weeks ago, we saw SpaceX launch on Salana on Hyperlquid Spot and Pers coming to Ethereum through products like Uniswap and Aer Drrome. Uh people are wanting to trade and invest in tokenized assets on chain. Obviously, stable coins have grown significantly. Tokenized deposits have grown significantly. But we've just been continuously developing this bull thesis around DeFi protocols that there is this massive multiundred trillion dollar market that is going to take a while but over the next decade or so there are

hundreds of trillions of dollars of tokenized real world assets coming on chain [snorts] and there's a select amount of DeFi companies and protocols that are going to capture this value. So, in the context of of today, I just wanted to kind of get an temperature check on Infinifi and really just get an understanding of how you're thinking about this tokenization wave from a DeFi founders perspective, from a protocol perspective and capturing that value. So, that's the context, Rob. That's what we're that's what our audience is thinking about. That's what we're curious about. It's good to have you back.

>> Good to be back. Yeah. So, at least from Infinifi's perspective, we see this as the way that we as a system is designed to basically do what a bank does, borrow short, lend long asset management where you deposit your capital to Infinifi. We're going to deploy it out to a variety of different venues where it's going to earn, you know, a rate that you can only get in a duration asset like a tokenized fund, for example. And we view this as the way that that sort of business can scale because you have all these different assets onchain and offchain. Onchain, the problem is a lot of them don't scale very well. It's really hard to put a lot of money into, you know, something like the basis

trade, even something as big as that, that does cap out at, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40 billion, which sounds like a lot, but it's not that much money. And that's limiting our ability to generate yield just to crypto and cryptobacked assets which is not that big of a sector yet. Where the real scalability lies is in the traditional world and things that are based you know real income streams lending uh so private credit things like asset backed finance you know receivables on uh trade goods receivables on um invoices receivables on credit cards. There are a ton of financial products out there that are

based in, you know, provable real world income streams. And we at Infinifi, our job is to ladder out portfolios. We're quite good at it. And we see the major growth vector being deploying capital out of those sorts of assets. So, we've been prospecting. We found M Global earlier this year, anchored it with a $30 million deployment, helped bring it on chain, and we're continuing that process.

>> And what is M Global? >> That is uh Midas's it's a collaboration between Midas Fasinara and I suppose ourselves. It's um Fasinara's GDAF fund tokenized through Midas. It's a bunch of trade receivables. >> Okay. >> All domestic to the countries they're originating in. It's yielding around I think 75ish right now. The NAV's just gotten updated so I don't know what the new rate is >> but that is a very very quality set of assets. Three billion AUM for the past eight years. Uh never had a single draw down month overmonth. Very good asset.

>> Yeah. And and trade receivables that is you are earning a yield on the time it takes to receive a good and get your payment for that good. So you're basically is it like >> somebody you know they'll get they'll get their payment when the part gets delivered for example >> and okay well they need the money now since they got a second thing. So okay you go ahead you pay them you collect the money when the thing arrives and you're financing like auto parts for you know who's that French car manufacturer I don't remember the thousand guys will tell you all this stuff.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But >> okay. >> Yeah, you're financing, you know, these transactions that are with very large corporations who pay their bills. >> Yeah. >> And so you're basically just pwning up the money so they can cover the gap. It's a very sustainable form of business. And RDBAS are full of stuff like that. All these funds who've, you know, been doing this for years now, well, they've found these assets. They've set up, you know, known stream known streams of uh revenue. They've got proved out businesses and they're just looking for more money to grow those businesses.

>> Yeah. >> And that to me is where onchain markets are really really good at uh contributing capital from places that normally wouldn't directly be able to deploy that capital. >> Yeah. >> At least from our perspective and this is a new thing that we're starting to push into. And I I I can talk about secondaries a little bit here because we are also playing with that. But the thing that we see as the more immediate opportunity and our view has changed a little bit recently. We've seen a lot of interest in I would say siloed products as we've been pushing into the neoank world which is where we see a lot of you know demand for these sorts of products

from over the next five years. Retail who doesn't realize they're facing crypto and as we've gotten in there we've realized okay what do these guys want? They want reg assets. They want siloed counterparty exposure. They don't want exposure to five different funds. They want exposure to maybe five different funds with one asset manager, >> but five different asset managers. [snorts] And that to us presents a very interesting opportunity where you can see crypto becoming the bridge between these individual asset managers who normally couldn't face uh NEO finance

>> since their assets are illquid and bridging that demand via things like Infinifi. >> Okay. Okay. So, could you give us a give us an example of like what this looks like? Because I know, you know, for example, I actually heard on the tokeniz this conference last week how it's actually hard to bucket different asset classes together in traditional products. Like it's it's hard to have an ETF that is, you know, has some some commodities in it, some individual name stocks, and some crypto ETFs. Like, you can't really bucket different asset classes together that great. And so some of these tokenization partners are, you know, they're they're building products

that that give you an, you know, an ETF like exposure, passive passive vehicle, but it owns some index funds, it owns some Bitcoin, it owns some gold, and it owns some single name stocks. And so this is kind of like an introduction for me of like oh like doing these things on chain gives you new investment uh primitives but you're talking about more like on the kind of back end for the actual managers and not being able to interact with each other. Perhaps you could just uh illuminate a little bit there.

>> So if you're a NEO bank right you might want exposure to an asset manager like you might want exposure to say five of Black Rockck's funds. Let's just use that as an example. >> Okay, normally you couldn't touch those because they're illquid, right? Your users want fast liquidity. They want to be able to move in and out rapidly. And so you don't want a lot of the portfolio yourself. The asset manager themselves might not have, you know, the wherewithal to set up a brand new regulated product off the shelves just for you, but they might be willing to tell you, hey, you know, this is how you should ladder it.

>> Yeah. And so you could take something like Infinifi and have that asset manager say, "Hey, of our, you know, 200 funds, these are the ones you'd want for this. This is the amount of capital that each one should have, and we'll go ahead and we'll set this up for you, >> and we'll operate it using these rails." >> And now it's basically you're just connecting two financial participants using crypto rails. and the advantages that this industry brings and the, you know, higher liquidity, you know, faster ability to move in and out of these positions that Neo Finance demands and you're just connecting between these two. It's kind of an ETF- like product, but without having to set up a full market even, you're just uh

you're controlling the ladder of the portfolio, and that's what Infinifi excels at. And so the latter being the duration of holding certain assets in the portfolio. >> So there might be a fund in there that has quarterly, there might be a fund in there that has weekly, there might be a fund in there that has week uh you know monthly and you're just setting up a different makeup of those assets. So you're producing something that has a very good liquidity schedule. So when people need capital, there's always capital, >> right? >> And then you can even trunch it out, which is another thing that we do. >> Yeah. and bring in people from the DeFi side who honestly DeFi people like risk >> of course why >> not gonna you know t anything up but you basically are able to source that side

of capital from the DeFi component and then on the more retail side you can sell it out the door to the neo banks. So, in the lens of this conversation, Rob, we've been thinking a lot about like this tokenization growth, right? Like, it's going to keep happening. There's a lot of these tokenized assets that are going to come on chain. They're going to continue to come on chain and we're just going to see this growth of uh stable coins, tokenized deposits, tokenized equities. Then you get all the way to like real estate, private credit, other forms of short-term, long-term bonds, um, yield bearing products, etc. And we continue to ask ourselves and our guests and our audience if we're right here,

right? Like if we are right in the next 5 10 years, let's say 20 trillion comes on chain of like what we think there's about 2 to 500 trillion possibility in the next decade. We say like let's say there's 10 to 20 trillion that actually does come on chain in the next five years who wins like who is the biggest benefactor of this movement whether it be or maybe we start with like who loses and I think there's like different answers to both questions and I'm we're trying on the show to form our mental model around positioning for this as an investor as an entrepreneur etc and so just think about if this tokenization thesis is correct Rob yeah

>> let's call it 10 20 trillion moves on chain next five years. Who wins? >> Who wins or who loses? Which one do you want me to do first? >> I think one will answer the other. >> So wins people like me. People like uh Midas, people like Centrifuge. >> So really the people who are willing to you know sit here and aggregate these things is one >> and then can sell it out you know further up the distribution chain. >> I would say the people who are doing the tokenization is two. I think they have a very important role to play. I think there will be new entrance in both markets. I'm not going to say, hey, you know, all the players here are the winners. But I think that the structural components of this are quite clear to me where

you need what because a tokenizer doesn't want to, you know, control a brand new novel portfolio. Um, an aggregator doesn't want to do tokenization and a neo bank doesn't want to do aggregation and tokenization. Um, people want readym made off-the-shelf products. They don't want to have to have, you know, too much input themselves. That's something I would say that we have learned. I would say I do think that the there's something to be said for the looping thesis and so the lending markets definitely have a place a role to play there.

I'm not so sure about people who solely focus on, you know, DeFi native stuff. Like, I like DeFi native, don't get me wrong. I just think it's not going to be as scalable. So, if your business is contingent on just constantly sourcing yield from the basis trade, which very few are these days, fortunately, or if your business is contingent on just lending against crypto, I think you're going to be in trouble in the next two to five years. Maybe not immediately. A lot of those, especially

the big players, and they got plenty of time. But if you're trying to build the truest like, hey, let's just long Bitcoin, let's just long Bitcoin. That's all of our focus is long Bitcoin or short Bitcoin. That's not sustainable. I'd say you got to be able to branch out because we're not going to get the pure original DeFi. We're going to get something in the middle where Trady is now part of it >> and we are now part of Tradfi. JP Morgan while we were on this call actually just as we started uh they just announced that digital assets are moving into the core of the US financial system. That's Jamie Diamond saying that.

>> Yeah, it's it's happening. It's unquestionable it's happening but it's >> you got to be willing to adapt. So then some of the losers then are we just thinking about like the incumbents who are used to maximizing shareholder value and profits based off of like the older kind of system. You know think about when brokerage when brokerages charge commissions. Obviously that changed but now you now your your order on brokerages is your it kind of the same way that like oh there's no price to pay for social media. your data is the price that you're paying or you know whatever it is with brokerages right there's no commissions you pay now uh but your order flow is is market makers

are effectively monetizing that when it comes to the traditional system with this tokenization kind of growth who who do you expect to kind of fight the hardest or kind of uh who are the bigger losers there you talking about the existing tokenizers >> yeah like I mean I mean the whole thing with tokenizing equities right is that like we can trade them 247 onchain with a different set of market makers a different set of users and we don't need to go through the whole middleman rails of everything that um you know is existing in tradi plumbing that's just one example but I guess the

like the broader question is is if the winners that you just explained win who like this pie is growing, but there's also an a total sum of a pie. Who Who's having their lunch taken more than the others >> in the trady world or the DeFi world? >> Yeah, I think in the trady world. >> Okay. >> But I think in the DeFi world would be interesting too, man. >> The Trady world, I'm not going to say the interactive brokers because a lot of them are, you know adapting.

>> Yeah. >> But I'm sure there's going to be some of them. Yeah, >> people who are, you know, fully dependent on the you have to remember I don't know I know Trifi decently well in places like private credit but I can't tell you I'm you know a super experienced equities trader. >> Yeah. >> Um in terms of who I would be willing to bet is the biggest loser there, it's probably still going to end up being the brokerages. >> Yeah. just because you now have the ability to bring this stuff on chain.

Anyone who's doing um margin lending especially over time is going to be a big loser because you can get just much more efficient margin lending on chain. >> Yeah. >> People don't think about that very well, but you can Oh, okay. This one little I I got a hot take. CME >> CME. >> See, now we're talking why. >> There's your hot take. Because the futures trading system as it is is Byzantine and >> inaccessible to typical traders. >> Yeah.

>> Her in my opinion are in most ways a much better product. >> And ultimately I think they're going to have to adapt or die. Um, >> I'm not saying, you know, you shouldn't be trading futures at all, but if you're trying to express a long or a short view, unless there's a reason to have it timed dated, I'm there are some people who makes sense to have time dated. There are some people, especially if you're not using it to hedge, like, you know, for crops. Okay, that makes sense. But if you're just trying to express a long or short position in the market, pers are a measurably better vehicle to express a longer short position. So, I think that's the reason that they are suing the uh the CFTC

right now perpetuals. They know that their business is being threatened. >> That's what I mean. That's kind of like where we're at in this tokenization like saga. >> We're like we're in the it's it's clearly happening. We're going to fight it, but we're also building internally to develop for it. >> Have you ever tried to trade futures on the CME? No, I've never traded contract in my life. >> The standard decimal system for pricing, >> right? They use some weird base 8 might be base 64 system to indicate fractions of a cent.

>> It is the strangest way I have ever seen people price something. And you can just smell that it was invented in the 1800s. [laughter] It is so beyond outdated the way that they are doing things over there. And so, yeah, it makes total sense to me that, you know, per show up and eat their lunch. >> Yeah. Rob, kind of thinking about this, uh, latest a horizon launch that you guys just pushed forward. Um, you know, kind of pushing forward tokenized private credit for institutions. Kind of give us a bit of of a sense of where Infinifi is headed from here. As we kind of close up here, what does this launch kind of mean for Infinifi?

where you guys headed now as far as the the the product and specifically with adopting more and more kind of this tokenization RWA growth. How do you capture a lot of that? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, there's really two ways that we're involved there. Um the first and this is a longer term development for us. We're working on setting ourselves up as a dealer. Uh not not a dealer, a dealer like entity on these RWAs since we have the ability to hold them on our books. We can offer people exit so we can provide liquidation services and that's actually something we're doing frame global. We are the designated liquidator for that.

We have the first right refusal on that asset and so we're able to get very good pricing on it since we you know staked it. We were the first ones to put up capital. In terms of where we're taking that as we see more and more of these, we have a dedicated service that we're in the process of building and that'll be allowing us to you know offer this on a much broader spectrum. Uh when that happens well we're watching the market gauging how quickly the uptake on this is what the demand is we have for our pilot program and going from there.

Now the second angle is bit more bespoke offerings but currently in the early stages of building something on that we've seen a lot of demand for those sorts of products where basically you know we're having somebody else curate using our system and structuring products such that they are uh well a good bit more accessible to >> a lot of the world. I will not get too in the weeds on that, but that's that's been showing a lot of promise and we're very excited about that forthcoming product.

>> Yeah, I mean access is a big part of this as well, right? Like we talk about >> compliance is something that we've run into and we believe we found a way to work with it rather than against. >> Yeah. And clarity is coming, man, real soon as well. So >> clarity is going to be here before we know it. And >> it should be. We'll see what this hearing in July has. Somebody in the chat says, "I keep hearing Seth Rogan." [laughter] >> Oh, no, not again. I mean, hey, you know, I guess I need to lose some weight. When I'm when I'm not, you know, weighing probably about 250, I usually get Chris Pratt, but I'll take it. [laughter] >> Well, Rob, we've got a ton, your favorite clipper here in the in the

Empire State Building managing the show. Thank you for being with us, Rob. Um, looking forward to more of the rollouts from you guys on this tokenization front. Uh, feel like there's obviously a lot going on there amidst this kind of market noise. So, heads down, staying building. And, uh, thanks for your time, man. >> Much appreciated. Great to be here, Andy. Take care. >> All right, Rob. We'll see you soon, buddy. See you in New York. >> See you then. >> All right, buddy. All righty, guys. I got in Pendle early. Shahine is back in the chat. Shine is back in the chat. All right, guys. Let's pull up the markets. See where see where we stand amidst this amidst this madness that is the sailor strategy happenings

amidst this madness that is per growth. Um, as Rob was saying, I mean, the CME is fighting hyperlid right now via suing the CFTC. It's interesting. Um, all right. Let's look at the uh talk of the town from the weekend was this HIPP4 prediction market growth. Um, so I have that open and I have uh also this priority fees thing from Hyperlid. So I'm going to show you guys this as well.

So let's go ahead and pull it up. Um, so guys, this was something that like either I missed it or it hadn't really been talked about, but basically there's priority fees on Hyperlid for faster execution and market data and you can order Q Jump plus G plus the read priority auction daily since launch. And for some reason, um, we've just gotten a massive uptick in priority fees over the last like five days. And then if you go to the actual revenue side, it's like

it's not like we've gone up a ton, you know, like it's so I don't really know what's triggering this, but we're running at a $25 million a year or so, $23.9 million a year run rate in priority fees. There's only been 265 all-time payers. You got to you got to imagine that these are whales paying for better pricing. 147 people trading on. So that the amount of traders using priority fees is also significantly you know it's very small amount but also growing quite a

bit. It's just interesting. Top market is SpaceX and equities. See this is this is it guys like as long as HIP3 keeps happening in the way that it's been happening which is open interest Z3 bill a lot of that trading activity keeps happening like I think the thesis is intact as long as we just keep seeing HIP3 grow and happen and so yeah here's the here's the priority fees primarily SpaceX markets micron on and then you know this one guy has paid 21%

of it on SpaceX. Another person on oil, SpaceX and oil being the top two. Yeah. I mean it's interesting these these guys are paying a lot to get their orders executed properly. So, that was one thing that I saw this weekend that I thought wasn't even priced in because I didn't really even price it into my thesis. So, I was like, "Okay, that's interesting." The other thing is HIPP4. Um, we saw the largest volume day on June 27th. Um, and we're just seeing, you know, the trend is slowly trending up.

sports obviously a big category with the World Cup um happening and I think what was interesting was there was a this is interesting so Hyperlid is 13 14% of the way on its way to be at par with Hyperlid or sorry with Polyark market 24-hour Bitcoin prediction market volume.

I honestly think I honestly think this is going to uh take over fast. Like I think uh hyperlquid will get to 50% of just bitcoin markets on poly market like this year like this like like this quarter quarter three next quarter this obviously I think is going to take a long long a lot longer. I mean like obviously the total platform volume is significantly higher but if we're looking at just prediction markets I think obviously we have a long way to go

and obviously the pers are leveraged so that they you know prediction markets are not leveraged per so you get like a lot more volume on them I mean look at this trend like insane Insane growth for prediction markets man she 10 billion dollar this past week poly market 3.4 4 HIPP4 80 million. That's what I mean. I I mean I think HIPP4 is going to be the number three uh prediction market as of like I don't know next next couple weeks, next couple months.

I mean this is the big endgame, right guys? Like let me just make sure this is up here. I don't know if this is gonna be able to actually happen. I mean, if this happens, like the thesis for Hyperlid goes from like CME NASDAQ Binance, NYC to like all of those plus all the prediction markets. I mean, we haven't even scratched the surface on breaking down the volume from prediction markets.

Like, even if this gets to like 25% of Kelshi, I mean, that would be unreal. That would be unreal. Unreal. Completely completely astronomically unreal. And so I don't think HIP4 or the priority fees are really that priced into this market right now. That oil trader is definitely IRGC. Wow. Imagine. Imagine.

Imagine. Yeah. I mean, guys, this is this is the the whole another story that we're going to have to start covering on the show. I mean, obviously I didn't I didn't really factor this in. How about this? How about this? I've been doing quite a bit of trades on Koshi. Let's say like um not like two grand, like four four to 500 bucks. You pay $21 or $9 on a $600 trade on on Hyperid. You pay 42 cents.

Wow. Wow. I mean, guys. >> Wow. >> I mean, like, it's not even close. >> Embarrassing. Like is it are we missing something here? I mean it's obviously not as good like of an experience and they don't have as much marketing like obviously going on your phone and just like popping up cashier ply market and like placing a

sports bet or whatever is or prediction we should we say. Uh yeah, I mean that's obviously easier and better marketing. Wow, Brazil scores. Oh my gosh, I was about to take that. I was about to take Brazil. Wow, this is nuts. Wow, what a game. I I honestly just want to play on the stream, but I feel like I don't know if that's the vibe.

I don't know if that's the vibe, guys. I kind of think it is the vibe, though. I don't know if you guys are gonna uh I don't know if you guys are going to stick around for that, though. But I kind of want to watch I kind of want to watch. Wow. I really want [snorts] to watch All right. Well, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna just going to wait till we're gonna wait till um till it gets a little later in the game. But yeah,

guys, I mean, I just checking in there on um on our lovely prediction markets. This is also like very low. This is the lowest it's been in a while. Again, we keep saying this. Um I think there's probably opportunity there. I think they're probably hitting the ATM and buying hype today. That might be why it's going so up so strong, but maybe not. But I also think this is like super low, guys. And I think there's probably opportunity there. I obviously hold some hold hype as well. [snorts] And then what I was telling you guys about on the on the other side of things is this looks really strong.

That weekly obviously it's like not a lot of history, but had like that one of the highest weekly closes broke all the levels that we needed to. And I think once it gets above $2, like there's obviously like this like level here at two bucks that needs to, you know, get get past. But I think once it breaks two, I mean, you're going to start to hear comparisons about how it's hyperlquid but better technology.

Why is it trading at $600 million market cap and $2 billion FTV? you'll start to see and hear comparisons about it. Any opinion on lighter similar pages to check on stats? I don't know as much on um on lighter they'll regulate that spread real quick out of the US. Yeah, for the prediction markets. Yeah, that could be a problem. I agree. Put your first bet on Hyperlid on Japan live. No, dude. I was going to bet Brazil live before Rob came on. I knew I should have. I knew Brazil was not going to go down to Japan 1 zero. That was

just not going to happen. Brazil going to take this. I agree. I got some futures bets in the World Cup. I don't know if there's a lighter data dashboard. Can anybody help? Can anybody help to find that? If you guys can help find a lighter data dashboard that's really quality place to stop, guys. Um really, really fun show today. great World Cup match. We We got the B like we got the bounce that we needed. We needed a daily close to really solidify it to get the bulls back in control a little bit. Bulls I think on a good daily close here on hype [snorts] and lighter are fully in control. Obviously fully dependent on Bitcoin. But yeah, I mean great show guys, fun show. And uh yeah,

I'm getting yelled at by the producer about uh uh getting in trouble here for sharing the World Cup. So yeah. Yikes. All right, guys. Much love. See you guys soon. And uh you know where we'll be tomorrow, 12:30 p.m. Eastern. Can you restart the live stream or are we wrapping up early? FIFA over YouTube overlords say no. I'm cooked only on X. We'll talk about it tomorrow. Yeah, guys, it was a fun show. You know where to find us. In the bull, in the bear, uh wherever we [music] may be, we will

be bullish. We will stick to it. Um and we we will continue to position. Oh, it says we're back on. It says we're back on. Are we back on? Are we back on? Let's see. Let's see. We're back. We're back. We're so back. We are so back. We cannot show We cannot show the World Cup anymore. As much as fun as that was, uh YouTube just took took us down. Wow. All right. Yeah. I mean, I I guess people are paying a lot of money for the game and for cable and for all that, so I don't blame them. But it was fun while it lasted, guys. Uh, wow. Brazil scores.

Brazil scores la last. Wow. Brazil scores. >> Oh my goodness. We just missed it because of freaking YouTube. No, wait. It got taken back. No. Gabrielle Martinelli, I think. Oh, the people are watching it here. Brazil scores. Yes. Freedom guy hits. [laughter] Freedom guy hits. Wow. Wow, Brazil is going to be a mad house. Oh my gosh. Viva Brazil. Viva Brazil, guys. What a Wow, Freedom Guy called it.

Guys, thanks for rocking with us. I'm going to end the show today. It's been fun. Um, we'll see you tomorrow, 12:30 p.m. Eastern. We're not going to be streaming the World Cup. Apparently, that got us in trouble this time. Uh, we're gonna play by the rules. So, thanks for being part of the show. You know where to find us. You know our positions. you know, our stance. We're going to hold the line and we're going to we're going to keep things rolling. We're like Sisphus. We're pushing the rock up the hill one day at a time. Sometimes it rolls back. We just keep pushing. So, >> Viva Brazil, BZA, your mouse. Hey, Ammo Brazil. Let's go team. Thank you. Rollup army for being here. No, Freedom Guy. Uh Edward, uh Stephanie, uh and everyone else, Stephen, we're still looking for

that link, Edward, by the way, for lighter and hyperlquist. We'll get that tomorrow, >> guys. Thanks for being a part of the show, inshallah. Peace out. See you tomorrow. [music] >> [music]