🚨LIVE: Robinhood Chain Hot?! STRC at $85! Macro In TROUBLE?! Galaxy, Coinbase, & Curve On The Show

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[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] >> 17 floor.

We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. [music] >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie [music] are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding into my library every day potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at Dev Connect day [music] one here. I'm guessing from Bas. [music] [music]

Heat. [music] [music] [music] Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> He said it. He finally said it. >> I'm so bullish. It >> is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] [music] Heat.

[music] Heat. [music] Heat. [music] Heat. >> [music]

>> for rollup [music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. roll up is my favorite. >> From all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the rollup. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

[music] >> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> [groaning] >> that rhymes with purr. >> Purr. Welcome back to the roll, ladies and gentlemen. You're watching the tokenization tower special live from the nest, broadcasting from the financial capital of the world. Today is July 8th, 3 days before I turn 27.

>> [applause] >> I'm getting late on my birthday. All right, guys. Let's be real here, Rob. >> Oh my goodness. We're >> We're from the tokenization. >> Welcome you to the 27 club. Hopefully not. Make sure you make it a 28 out there. >> You guys see Plume? Plume the nest, the tokenization tower, brought to you by Plume. Ladies and gentlemen, don't worry about your bags. >> It's okay. It's okay. Greg, what's going on? Good morning, Nest crew. I always wanted to skydive, but I never have. I did it in Hawaii. It was epic. It was electric. Robbie did it before me. I think you did it in Florida, right, Rob?

>> Mhm. Yeah, I did. It was fun. A good time. >> Oh, yeah. >> It was terrifying. >> Yeah. Uh there's nothing like it. Nothing like skydiving. I recommend do it once. I have no interest in doing anything any any more than >> Oh, I would definitely do it again for for sure. Send it. Pedialite zero, guys. We We don't do sugar. Stay off the sugar, guys. It's not like I ate cookies on July 4th. >> Guys, we got a great show today. We got the uh Galaxy VP of research. We've got Coinbase head of AI product. We've got Curves founder Mike. >> My front tooth got knocked out. 4K to fix. I bought Arrow instead. [laughter] >> Greg, you're >> one of us. One of us. One of us.

>> The animal spirits are coming back. We're going to >> We got a great show today. Robin Hood chain. Robin Hood chain blowing up. >> Cash. Yeah. I got a text about Cash Cat yesterday at like $40 million market cap. I think um it's at like 80 100 now. Did not buy. Uh I'm trying to stay clear. I'm trying to stay pure. >> It feels like the season where you just toss a little bit into those things because we're getting these like swirling winds of a secular bull market. >> Yeah, I mean I understand that. But until I'm back above water with hype at all-time highs, lighter back ripping, Zcash near arrow ripping, I have no desire to speculate on memes. No desire.

As always guys, our topics are powered by our friends at Treasure. Visit treasure.io. Use code rollup10 to get yourself a treasure. I skydive once and never again. I'm short and couldn't reach the other handle to flare. Ended up on an electric fence with a cow staring at me from 5t away. >> Embarrassing. >> Wow. Wow. >> A ton. Give you a little sound effect for that one. Shine. >> Guys, we did a crazy Aton pre-recording yesterday for the street segment. You guys are going to love it. All right, guys. Let's keep it rolling into the weather. Before we do, let me tell you about our stable coin partner, Fracks today. Building infrastructure for the future of digital money. Uh, open stable borderless. Visit frack.com to learn more about what they are doing with FRXUSD and more. 79 degrees in New York City. Feels like 82. It's going to be

84. Highs today. Beautiful day. Honestly, sunny as hell. You got the straight of Hormuse, also known as the East River. It's full with battleships as you guys can see here, filled with battleships and army ships and things. Um I don't know, but but a plane crashed in there. A small a small like um plane that people fly on their own >> last week. So that was uh bit weird. >> Strange. Um sunny down here as well. It's a beautiful day. We've been getting these afternoon showers. uh weather segment is >> is something. All right, I'll tell you.

I think we uh I think we should just keep moving along because shine is shining. Uh >> as always guys, our weather is powered by our friends by Relay. Visit relay.link to start swapping seamlessly across chain. Let's get into the markets. I know this is what you guys want to hear about, what you came for, why are my bags down. Before we do, let me tell you about dinari. Dinari is our tokenized equities partner on the rollup uh trade tokenized SpaceX on Hyperlquid today. SPXD is the ticker one to one fully backed powered by dinari. So Bitcoin, Ethereum, Salana Chain near lot of red out there.

Um looks like markets are down. uh Iran violated ceasefire and I think once again we're seeing this macro just uh whipping and so uh I mean this is part of my thesis around why TA doesn't work great yesterday >> uh I can hear you now Andy I just think and obviously it's not like you can do some fundamental analysis on like you know what the revenue projections look like for near and then all of a sudden you're going to like you know make it big because you could have you know some random macro event come in and just affect the entire thing. Um, but I do think uh I I mean look, we got to get out of the woods when it comes to the

war. That is what's holding up Bitcoin uh from making higher highs. I don't know what what what was what do you attribute like the rise in these majors to over the last few days before, you know, obviously we had the cease fire broken. That's what's leading to this today. >> Yeah. But it it felt like majors were just kind of charging higher. Mean reversion. You got anything? What do you attribute it to? >> Yeah, I don't know, man. Um, just a lot of bearishness at the lows. Still think we're in for the summer bounce. If you look at the midterm years for Bitcoin, we always get a summer bounce that ends up rolling over into new lows that set the final lows. So, that seems like the most obvious outcome. Um, and I would expect that to continue to happen. All

right. And so, yeah, I mean, I think that basically we're getting that summer bounce into uh the middle of Q3 and then we'll kind of reassess there. Our thesis was we want to see this summer bounce lead to all-time highs on our coins and then hopefully our coins set a higher low in the coming months rather than going back to new lows like Bitcoin and ETH probably will. So, um, freedom guy, don't laugh. I'm sensitive.

Yeah. Um, what's your take, Rob? >> Yeah, I think I mean, hey, like just based off historical results, if you know, we always get new lows, we get the summer bounce and in these midterm years, like I I I mean, look, I could see history repeating itself, certainly rhyming. I think it it is um a matter of outperformance. Uh if the typical market as a whole is looking at making new lows, we want to try to make some higher lows. Yeah. Um, I have been saying that I think the things that are outperforming now are outperforming based on fundamentals and they will continue to outperform. But you do get these secular pops of attention and intensity like you're seeing on Cash

Caden, you know, >> how do you even >> I mean, how do you even how do you even do something? How do you even play something like that, you know, without just like spraying a little bit into it? And then you see the Robin Hood CFO has it in its bio and then you see it up steam and then you just kind of ate more into it and then bam. >> Um >> I mean it's flying that's for sure. >> Yeah. I mean we we we have seen this before but when it comes to kind of the more you know majors fundamentals these sorts of things. Um >> yeah we got to get out of the woods.

>> Oh dude Rob I fumbled. I fumbled. One of the arbitrum guys sent me the Cash Cat ticker at 8 PM last night and it was at it was at 30 mil market cap. It's at [snorts] 130 mil. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait wait. >> I mean, you missed it. That's what I mean, dude. I would have >> I would have put like two grand in it. >> There would have been four. I mean, which would have been nice, but it's not like there would have been any like I I saw it was up like what a thousandx over >> Yeah. from the lows.

>> So, >> so all right guys, as always, our markets powered by our friends as oil is way back up to 7778. Uh macro conditions are looking a little bit shaky. S&P and NASDAQ are down uh today. Kind of pulling down a lot of the other tokens uh and broader market. So yeah, I mean that's my take. As always, our market friends at Zama visit zama.org to learn more. Let's get into the the news and more. Before we do, let me tell you about Near, your home for building, discovering, and using apps on chain, one account, no borders, your financial life on chain. Visit near.com to learn more about what they're doing today.

Um, >> all right guys, speaking of near, I think I mean we have freedom guy in the chat saying how they put a max supply cap um which is going to lead to ultimately near becoming in deflationary. I saw that they opened up confidential attent availability. That was the major piece of news that I saw yesterday. Uh freedom guy, if you have a source, go ahead and throw it in the chat. Um we're gonna want to talk about this because near a partner, love those guys. They have revenue, they have privacy, they have AI. It feels like there's a lot of converging narratives for near.

>> They also helped unlock uh Zcash, which obviously Mer is commenting on here. Uh Zcash's new Ironwood pool is being formally verified to rule out all undetectable counterfeiting bugs up to the underlying cryptographic assumptions. Uh >> my entry was 6 million on Cash Cat for Sigma Slayer. Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. Yeah. So, Rob, this is Project Tachon's update. Um, basically the new Ironwood pool is being formally verified. Um, yep. I mean, Mert is huge on this. Um, and we heard from him directly. He came

on the show and he was talking about this. Uh, that is ultimately uh what is going to send Zcash higher. And I think Zcash was just leading here. I tuned into the charts yesterday. I saw that Zcash was up like 7% on the day while everything else was starting to turn down. Man, it's tough out there. I mean, everything's just hinging on the war, which is pretty much all it's just impossible to predict. >> Uh be real nice to hold this this 60K level.

>> Yeah, I mean Zcash is at 460. It looks really strong. I mean, this was like the biggest FUD, right? It was like, "Okay, we're going to get this, you know, is there this infinite mint bug?" And I feel like if this goes through, this pretty much takes care of all of the FUD. Like all the FUD is gone. >> So, you know, I think that this is a really really really strong piece piece of news here. >> Yes, guys.

>> What do you mean? Yes, >> buddy. I can't hear you. We're having some audio issues. >> What do you mean? Yes. [gasps] >> Yes. I was saying that that that uh Zcash's new Ironwood pool uh kind of removes the FUD from that big ass dump that it had had a huge dump and everyone was like, "Oh, there's going to be nobody knows how many tokens are in circulation. It could be infinite." >> But I think that that's kind of like now be beyond like it's behind us. >> Yeah. >> So, I think we're looking good here. >> Yeah. And I think you know this is going to get implemented uh pretty well. Uh obviously there's some sort of upgraded risk whenever you implement these big changes but I do think that this gonna this is going to be a net positive for

the Zcash ecosystem. Um it's just the flows are just incredible when you look at you know what is happening to Bitcoin how it's been co-opted by Sailor. Um and then every single uh censorship resistant money principle that applies to Bitcoin also applies to Zcash. You don't quite have the immaculate conception that Bitcoin had. >> They call it a premine shitcoin that Bitcoiners do. >> Yeah, they do. I wouldn't quite go that far, but um it is uh it it does have a lot of the same uh principles that Bitcoin does.

>> All right, guys. That's Zcash. I think uh the bare case has been nullified as long as this goes through. So, we're tracking this um and hoping to see Zcash trade to 2 to 3,000 in the next bull at least. Let's keep it rolling into um Chris Perkins uh from Franklin Crypto who was on the show previously and basically argues that crypto and Treadfire are no longer different. You know, you have a $127 trillion equity market that's getting tokenized and you're not bullish enough and there is tokenization is the next phase of market modernization from the finance side. Meanwhile, uh liquidity is probably going to migrate faster than people expect on chain. So, let's hear what Chris has to say. I think he's right. I think he's spot on actually.

>> Can't choose anymore. >> You think he's spot on here? >> It's one market. Finance is crashing together. You have $127 trillion equity market that's tokenizing. It's going to happen overnight. You've got perpetuals. It's all coming together. The foundation has been set. Our clients, they all have one thing in common. >> Their boards are asking them, "What the heck are you doing in crypto?" Previously, they would say, "I'm doing nothing." And they'd say, "Great. That's wonderful. We don't want you to touch this stuff. It's way too dangerous." Now the answer is what are you doing in crypto and they're like uh I better have an answer. when you look at a company like Franklin Templeton and as I was on boarding Ryan the one thing that you know I really wanted to emphasize to the team it's the risk guys it's the ops guys it's the cyber guys these are the

folks who really bring that edge and allow you to deliver an enterprise solution to institutional clients that have to come into this space because again there's no more trad >> Yep I agree And I think this is the bull thesis that we keep talking about. We keep talking about this being the bull thesis for tokenized assets for hyperlquid lighter a drrome near um you know list goes on unis swap Robin Hood chain revenue has been super high sky syrup um all of these assets right that we have come to know and love I think this is the bold thesis for them

it's this is coming together. >> Yeah I think so too. I mean the the thing is that and I and I saw someone else put a tweet out about this which is like what is happening to the rerating here and it's you know you've got you've got like the the potential TAM and this happens in every investment pitch deck you know you you look at what is the size of the market and then how much of the market can you capitalize and I think you know we're we were looking at a market that had a potential size of$ two trillion dollars now we're looking with RWAS with equities with, you know, digital assets, with commodities, you're looking at a market the size of $400 trillion.

>> And I I think >> trillions. >> Yeah. And you can then look at, you know, what market share some of these DeFi companies are poised to make, >> you know, the memecoin, Bitcoin, Zcash thesis is is separate from this. But I think you know you combine those two and you can end up where a lot of these protocols are are in a position where you know they're they are competing on a level playing field and I think >> I think that market size is going to be an expansionary pressure but I do think that there's contractionary pressures as well like the like [laughter] the network uh Jevans paradox network

bootstrapping thesis of all these L1s like you don't need revenue, you don't need these things. >> You know, >> there is some of that, but I think we're going to be playing being on a level playing field with the largest financial institutions, you don't get to pick and choose. I think you are going to have to hold yourself to a higher standard and you're going to you know have trillions of dollars at stake and I think you know some of those are expansionary and some of those are contractionary pressures but ultimately the expansionary ones are greater and you know the size of the pie gets bigger for everyone.

>> Yep. Yep. No more crypto. It's just stratifi 2.0. We're investing kind of silly because this is not what crypto was meant for but hey you want to make money or or do you want to be right? Do you guys see Vanguard finally bent the needed digital assets? I did see that and I do agree with the sentiment dislocation being like I didn't come here just to trade tokenized assets on chain. Like I didn't come here just to make a marginal improvement to Tradfi. Like that's not what I came here for. But I think it's an annoying but necessary step in the process. And so I think that's how I I think about New Type. And I think that that's a necessary it's this necessary step to unlock the vision that we all are here for. And I think that's how that's the right way to think about it.

>> So I I got one more thing on this, which is a thesis that I've been applying to more and more use cases because I just I the the things that I find are true just continue to show up as true in more and more things that I look at. >> Yeah. >> Um it originally started out with stable coins where hey, if I my consumer behavior is just tapping a card, I'm just going to continue to tap a card. The merchant just needs bank, you know, money in their bank. like I don't know the mix of you know fiveyear treasuries, 10-year treasuries, who has mortgages at this bank. The num the bank just shows me a number and then when I tap my card, it draws down that number in the back end. That's when I that's where I think the stable coin adoption

is going to come from. I just get shown a number, the merchants just get shown a number. I just tap a card. But when it comes to sending the money from my bank to the merchant bank, that is where stable coins get integrated. the merchant nor me ever have to touch it, never have to change our consumer behavior. >> I am starting to think that equities could look the same way where and we I think we started to talk about this a little bit yesterday when it came to Robin Hood chain. We started talking about how Robin Hood the brokerage Robin Hood the the equities that they hold on behalf of clients couldn't make it [clears throat] onto Robin Hood chain. But I'm coming around to the idea of like Robin Hood

can take it upon themselves to tokenize all the equities. Me, you, like our grandparents that have no clue about this kind of stuff, they don't ever need to know or care or have to press any buttons to understand where their equities are being held and how they're being held. All of that can be obuscated away. You, my bank shows me, I have a number on a screen. That's my cash account. my brokerage shows me that I own this many stocks and they don't have to tell me whether it's tokenized or not. And when it comes to settling those equities, that's when they can take it upon themselves to tokenize and transfer for instant settlement. The only

difference that it looks like to us is just, hey, your money arrived in your account quicker and it cost you less in fees. But everything that you did when it came to buying, selling, trading, holding, transferring, all of that remains exactly the same. >> New Type says, "It's all a simulation, bro. It's all a simulation, bro." >> I mean, when it [laughter] comes like it depends how far you look, like how deep in the simulation do you want to go to really understand what is happening behind the scenes. I mean, this literally is the movie The Matrix. You can look at the architect and you can understand what gears and leverage he's pulling. Or you can just look at the number on the screen. You can just say, I just have Robin Hood, you know, equity in my account. You don't have to look at, oh, was it held at the DTCC? Is it

tokenized? What ledger is it on? Like, who are the SPV rappers in between me and my stock certificate? >> Guys, I got some new I'll hyperlid spot equity provider. It's going to be it's going to be interesting. Um, all right, guys. We've got Lucas here in the tower. I'm going to pass it over to Rob. Before we do, let me tell you about Infinifi, building DeFi infrastructure for simpler access to onchain yield, liquidity, capital allocation. To explore more efficient finance, visit infinifi.xyz. All right, hope you guys enjoyed that little bit of rant. I really do think that's the way that this adoption cycle is going to go. Uh we're going to see the institutions adopt the consumers.

If you've if you're a consumer retail, you don't run a business, you don't own a financial institution, participate in one, you've already been adopted, integrated or not, you've already said crypto is the best thing ever or it's the worst thing ever and you have taken decisive action accordingly. Everything else in terms of consumer behavior is going to be done by the institution. AI on the other hand, I think people are still on the fence. Nobody is talking about AI nationalization. AI is not just a technology. It's a military project.

According to Ari David Paul, we could see a Los Alamos style lockdown of the AI labs in the distant future. I mean, we're already kind of seeing it uh with, you know, Fable 5 getting getting nerfed. Um I saw that OpenAI had permission to release its 5.6 model, but the thing is they had to get permission. So, let's see what Ari has to say. AI is that mythos is a military project. If some AI friends who are prepared to have a Los Alamos style lockdown, they expect the US government to fully control them within 3 years. This is a hypothesis.

I'm not sure I agree, but when you think about um the most critical national defense projects the US has ever had with the um nuclear project, we literally we put all of our nuclear scientists in the desert and we spied on them. We wouldn't let them leave. They couldn't make phone calls. Right? when we treated it like a military project. AI is that mythos is a military project and at some point the US government and other governments I mean other governments are already doing this at least Chinese um US government may start approaching it that way and say oh you're a top engineer on you know machine learning at meta you're only using a government issued cell phone you're only traveling with permission you're not allowed to leave the country you're not you know um and if if US doesn't do that we will be leaprogged by

China because they'll they'll b they can basically use corporate espionage to get to where we are and then and then go forward um so all of that affects these as investments, right, in ways I don't fully understand. >> So I part of what Ari's I I think the premise is correct, but the conclusion about going into a Los Alamos style lockdown with, you know, the government effectively controlling, you know, who is able to leave the country and these sorts of things. I don't know if that conclusion is the right one to draw. the premise that he's talking about of you know Chinese uh state AI companies and entities distilling the US uh frontier models that is absolutely happening. Um,

there was a tweet from Tulip King that went viral and Chimoth I think even piled on to it which is effectively like hey you know uh this was back I think this was when Fable was coming out or this might have been when Chacht 5 was coming out something like that but um it was effectively like oh this model looks great uh can't wait to use it for 120th of the cost at 2% degragated performance when the you know for my Chinese brothers and sisters like that is absolutely happening they are distilling these frontier US models. Um, and they're going to continue to do that.

The fact that, you know, they may uh put the the clamps on that and say like anyone with access to these models is going to become a top secret need, you know, require top secret uh clearance. We're going to have to we're going to have to see. I don't know. I think there's just too many people to get control over. Um, let's keep moving. Uh we'll do one more tweet, then we'll get into daily equity. Um but before we do, let's give a shout out to Lei, our uh intense and universal market access uh for digital assets.

Levi is a great partner. Been working with them for a long, long time. These guys power a lot of the order flow underneath the hood. They have a great aggregator in themselves on Jumper and a lot of the SDKs when you're using wallets, when you're using lots of things. Um, you may not know, but LeFi is embedded underneath the hood. Uh, Satoshi knew A16Z ccrypto says that uh, Bitcoin solved a 40-year-old academic problem. It actually took quite a few years for people to realize that this is the kind of solving a Byzantine agreement problem, a very core academic problem. Yeah, the Byzantine problem uh, in this sense, Bitcoin is kind of a huge revolution in how solve Byzantine agreement. In fact, you look at early emails from Satoshi Nakamoto. You said

the core technical aspect of Bitcoin is solving Byzantine agreement. This is why it's such a huge 0ero to one. It's also relevant in a military context. You can actually agree on things with someone else that you may or may not trust. Let's go ahead and play the video. >> Bitcoin is not just a whole new destruction in distributed computing. It also has innovation in economics and cryptography. But here we're going to focus on the distributed computing part. It actually took quite a few years for people to realize that this is kind of solving a Byzantine agreement problem. So Byzantine agreement problem is kind of this very core academic problem that has been studied for 40 years and that sense Bitcoin is kind of this huge revolution in how to solve a Byzantine agreement. In fact if you look at early emails from Satoshi Nakamoto he kind of

realized that so he said you know the core technical aspect of Bitcoin is solving Byzantine agreement. Bitcoin was not just a whole new disruption in distributed computing it also has innovation in economics. >> Yeah. Um I mean it's huge. uh we've had innovations on top of this. Um I like to say that the uh casino funds the research lab and that is what we uh that is what we get when we get um you know the the prediction market complex right but then you get ZK and you get you know memecoin speculation gambling but then you know you get snarks and starks. Uh these things are actually complimentary and it's very very cool because well you know you can kind of do both appeals to

most multiple groups of people uh but they actually end up helping one another and a lot of times you kind of you know kind of are able to acrew a lot of value by serving that you know casino crowd uh but then uh if we can apply those resources into valiant uh valiant pools of capital for solving real things I do think that there it makes makes a lasting impact. Next, let's go to daily equity. Then we are going to get you guys back into the tokenization tower uh with Andy and our first guest of today.

[music] >> [music] >> Okay, so I wanted to cover this on daily equity. Uh, obviously daily equity is powered by our friends at dinari. They're doing incredible things with tokenized equities. Um, like I said earlier, part of the tokenized equity thesis here is that, you know, brokerages as a whole are going to tokenize uh their shares that they own on behalf of their customers. uh consumer behavior may not change but uh you know you you're buying, selling, trading, holding, transferring all remains exactly the same. The only thing

is now when you go to settle some of these equity trades, it happens cheaper and faster uh overall better experience, but consumer behavior never has to change. Um we're talking about this in context of Rob Robin Hood. In today's segment for Daily Equity, Eric Balenunis, uh, great ETF reporter, works for Bloomberg, uh, covered a lot of his stuff on the show, uh, before, published a note that he's been thinking about for months about how the US stock market has arguably become too big and too important to fail. It's basically America's retirement fund now and possesses even the savior of social, possibly even the savior of social security, which is expected to run out of money in less than 10 years. The important thing in this first paragraph

is, you know, when it says it becomes too big to fail. You might just think, oh, the stock market is huge. It's been going up for a long time. When we hear people use the terminology too big to fail, this has implications. Specifically, it means when when you hear that something's too big to fail, it means that the bailout powers at large are incentivized to keep this thing afloat. And that has never been applied to the stock market. If you remember 2008, 2009 actually literally caused for the creation of Bitcoin.

There were banks that got bailed out by the government because they were quote unquote too big to fail. And so once it seems like these banks start to come down, the people in control of the money printer literally print the money, inflate it away so that these banks have money to pay back their debt. And then the government comes in, maybe they take an equity interest or they take some sort of part ownership. But the point is that the banks don't fail because they're too big and too systemically important to fail. the the lender of last resort, the people in control of the money printer are the ones that come in, save the day, and bail out the banks. And in this case, what Eric Balenunis is talking about is bailing out the stock market.

What that could mean, and and we're going to get into it a little bit, but you know, you've heard of Trump, not only Trump accounts, but also um you know, these large public companies could potentially donate stock into Trump accounts. That has very funny implications. You've also heard of the government taking equity ownership interest in systemically important categories of industry. That could mean quantum. It could mean AI. He's kind of floated these ideas. We'll see what ultimately plays out. Let's keep reading. Currently, 55% of people own stocks, by far the most in the world.

And with Trump accounts bringing in 28 million additional Americans into stock ownership, the vast majority of people, including the top 1% who own half of the stock market, middle class and lower income, will have financial interest in the health of the stock market. And they're all voters. This means the political pressure to keep stocks out of a prolonged bare market is going to be very, very powerful. We know this. Trump has incessantly been talking about been talking about how, you know, the stock market's at all-time highs. Voters should be happy. His political base should be happy. Even though at the beginning of the election cycle, he said "Hey we're going to be going for Main Street,

not Wall Street." Yet, you know, the top 1% who own the half the top half of the stock market, um, they're all, you know, they're the ones celebrating. He's speaking directly to them as ownership of the stock market saying they should be happy. This was a different base that he was talking to at the beginning of the election cycle. As such, you know, by by the government and the political pressure to keep stocks out of a prolonged bare market. As such, I think there's a good chance the Fed will buy equity ETFs in the next major downturn to support market and it will become common practice going forward. The only commentary I have on this is that Kevin Wars has said that he doesn't want a large Fed balance sheet.

He's talked about lower interest rates, but he's al also talked about, you know, essentially the destruction of quantitative easing and a much much smaller balance sheet. He's talking he's talked about how, you know, it's taken 17 years to get the balance sheet so big and it won't take 17 weeks to get the balance sheet small again. This seems to directly contradict that point. China and Japan already do this. They may even target certain sectors or capital expenditure uh cosigned with the purchases. This is a massive variable that I feel like is a blind spot among the experts out there and why the bears get run over time and time again.

Although I think investors are on to it as evidenced by the persistent flows into ETFs during pullbacks as well as a survey of 10,000 people showing three4s of them are confident the Fed will bail out markets in the next crisis. I don't know about that one. This is just one byproduct of the nothing stops this train monetary supply explosion and debt extravaganza sweeping the world but especially in the US which at this point feels irreversible. My thoughts is that I think this could happen but it doesn't seem like this is the Fed chair to allow this to happen. I think it would take an extremely pronounced uh drop in the stock market in order for him to step in. He has said

that he wants a smaller balance sheet, but he also realizes how systemically important the stock market is. So, I find this concept extremely extremely compelling. I think he also makes a good point where the bears get run over time and time again. You know, this is ultimately what I think happens. It just may not happen. Like the It may not look like the Fed bailing out the stock market by taking equity ownership in, you know, equity ETFs. That would be a leap and bound beyond what they've done in the past. They've bought corporate debt in the past, but they haven't just straight up bought equity ETFs. I don't know if Kevin Worsh is the guy to do that. But I do think I again I agree

with his premise. The stock market is so systemically important that something has to be done. I don't know if the Fed buying equity ETFs is the thing that would be done in this case. Um, but ultimately we are going to find out because it is inevitable the stock market does turn. Uh, we will see what happens in that situation. Guys, we've got our first guest, the VP of research at Galaxy live in the tower. He's going to be coming up right after this. We're going to play the animation and we're going to get uh Galaxy in the Tower with Andy uh live from New York, guys, right after this.

Don't go anywhere. Going seventh floor. [laughter] All righty, guys. We are live here from tokenization tower. We've got the VP of research at Galaxy, Lucas. Previously

had roles at the Carnegie Endowment in Beijing and Goldman Sachs. sharp macro guy onchain perspective doing a lot of writing on Ethereum. Welcome to the tower, man. Great to have you, Lucas. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Yes, sir. Been loving your work recently on Ethereum. I think it's a great place to start. Uh just to kind of lay some context, man. I mean, we saw Ethereum kind of go through this transition phase with the EF being this very reductionary kind of force. Their view was we are just going to reduce reduce our impact on Ethereum. And it's kind of led to almost like this privatization of different sectors of Ethereum. You've got Etherealize, Bitmine, Sharlink, Joe Luben, Consensus, now ETH Labs, and you've got this Ethereum institutional arm that also rolled out all while

Vitalic kind of came out with a post detailing the technical upgrades for Ethereum. And so in this context, right, we're seeing kind of a transitionary period for Ethereum. Obviously, price action across the board for crypto is down, but Ethereum itself feels to be singled out uh more than ever because of its number two spot given its significance in making a lot of people wealthy over the last 5 years. So, you've been, you know, writing about where Ethereum grows from here from the tech side as well as from kind of like the institutional side and I think people are um kind of giving up on the rollup centric roadmap as well. you know, base is exciting, maybe arbitrum's getting some traction here, but a lot of the others people are kind of giving up on this. Robin Hood chain is obviously

exciting. >> So, maybe just talk us through your view right now on Ethereum um from the technical side, from the roadmap side, from this kind of privatization side and we'll get into it. Yeah, I mean so you know I've covered actually primarily Salana Galaxy for a long time and about a year ago I started to get a lot more interested in Ethereum because I saw a lot of corlaries to what I think happened to Salana in like 2022 2023 where a lot of people got disillusioned with the chain and kind of just stopped paying attention and I think a similar dynamic has been happening with Ethereum over the past two years and so um you know over the past year we've seen this straw map come out which I think has reoriented the chain in the right technical direction. Uh we've seen the Ethereum Foundation move towards yeah

this subtraction theory kind of reducing their overall role in the chain. Um but still focusing on what like ultimately should make Ethereum val valuable which is credible neutrality. Um and then yeah we've seen the emergence of these kind of other institutions that are going to help push ETH adoption uh whether that's on the institutional side or for ETH the asset. And so I think really with the final announcement of the Ethereum Foundation layoffs the other week as well as the roll out of ETH Labs and ETH institutional, we've kind of like seen the culmination of all of this changes that have been happening on Ethereum.

And I'm hopeful that basically over the next year or two, Ethereum is now going to focus a lot more on the execution side. And the first major update that's going to come with that is Glamsterdam, which is expected to ship in Q3 this year. Um, so for me right now it's kind of like, all right, Ethereum has like shed all of kind of the stink around it from the past few years. It's kind of reoriented itself in what I think is the right direction. Um, it's starting to pick up momentum. It's addressed a lot of the concerns that outside um, people had of it and just not enough people are really paying attention to what's happening on the ground now. and if they can ship Amsterdam later this year and then show progress towards the future tech upgrades and also start to show real dedicated adoption from

institutions and and maybe some onchain activity from the retail size start to pick up um the narrative can shift really quickly in my mind. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean as I said the the narrative's been well Ethereum is not good enough and it's too slow it doesn't compete with Salana and there's kind of this factor of where do where does Ethereum go from here? Because when you ask the sharp link folks or any kind of um Ethereum bulls about the like the thesis, it's typically like maximum transaction activity with RWAS leading to this burn and kind of that being the main revenue driver, but I mean we've just seen gas fees be so low for so long. Um that thesis is kind of hard to play out or it's hard to see play out.

what do you like what's your current like bold thesis on Ethereum from the like the business side of things um in terms of execution and in terms of like generating meaningful fees what does that look like? >> Yeah. So, you know, I I think for something like this doing the fundamental case for an asset like ETH is very challenging especially right now. What what I think is going to drive a lot of attraction for ETH itself is is probably going to be one narrative this idea that hey like it remains the best credibly neutral settlement layer in the world and and there is going to be demand for that. Um, and then I think the other thing that's going to really help Ethereum is just this idea that it is moving in the direction that you want to see for like where blockchain technology development is going. Quantum

resistance, focus on privacy, re scaling the L1 using things like ZK. Um, and then I also don't think the L2 thesis is going away to be honest. You know, I I think the death of L2s is very overstated. I think they will continue to play a really important role in Ethereum's growth and development. Um I just think that like you need to first get the idea that all right the L1 itself is an okay platform to host like the most valuable and for things to settle to while institutions can get more comfortable using Ethereum L2s if they want you know their own more controllable private um ecosystems to build on. So you know the launch of Robin Hood's L2 using the arbitum tech stack I think is a testament to this. I think if you talk to the Etherealized

guys to the ETH institution guys they've got a lot of irons in the fire. Um, I would I would really like to see some announcements start to come out and and so I think, you know, for myself, I I'm someone who used to be very skeptical of ETH and now feels very positive on ETH. I think everyone else used to be very positive on ETH and is very skeptical cuz they're like, hey, we've heard all these promises in the past. For me, I'm like, we've heard all these promises, but they've been the wrong type of promises. They're now finally the right type of direction you want to hear and the right type of adoption that you want to hear. And so, let's just deliver on it. If we don't see Glam Amsterdam ship in Q3, for me, that's kind of where I'll be like, "All right, this is a very bad

sign because I do think at this point, the pace at which they can execute and ship is going to become increasingly more important." >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've been just narrowing down on pers, tokenization, stable coins as like these big three. You can throw in vaults in there. You can throw in kind of prediction markets in there as well and kind of have this big four. >> Yeah. And so, you know, it's very clear to me that Ethereum is winning the PERS battle, the tokenization battle, and the stable coin battle. Like all like it has the most amount of tokenized assets, the most amount of stable coins, and all the per platforms are either Ethereum L2s, EVM based or are uh in some capacity built within the Ethereum ecosystem. And so like the question just just becomes like is longing Ethereum the right way

to express the bullishness on the per trend on the tokenization trend and on the stable coin trend and we keep saying like there's actually better ways to express it like like my personal portfolio view is more of like the the per view is hyperlquid and lighter uh in per like sure you can buy Ethereum for pers but it's not really a direct bet. Tokenization is still kind of a question. Like it's kind of like maybe Ethereum is the best security just went live on the NYC at like well over a billion dollar valuation. It's down significantly since launch. But >> maybe that's another good way to express that bet. Stable coins bit is a bit difficult. You know, Circle I guess you could buy that stock. You can't invest in Tether. You could buy Athena or Sky >> uh maybe some you know some others. And

so like our our like consistent mental model shaping here has been trying to figure out the best way to express express the bullish thesis on these three mega trends. These are decade long mega trends that we think that they're going to all maximally grow. And so perhaps Ethereum is part of that uh or is the best way to express the view of the three or maybe there's like more risky nuance views for each category, but then Ethereum kind of swallows them all. Just curious your view there. >> Yeah, I mean I I think you're definitely right like there's going to be better individual names for specific narratives or specific themes to express just because Ethereum is such like a broad it encompasses so much. But I think it's a good base asset on which a lot of this stuff is going to be built. Um I als I

also think like ultimately for Ethereum like my own personal view is it's going to have kind of like a Bitcoin like cycle over the next few years where it is going to become like this this idea of oh we need a credibly neutral settlement layer and Ethereum is the best option is going to drive a lot of flows to it. And so that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be the best performer. Obviously it's you know it's already a $250 billion asset. It's massive. Um, but I do think it's going to be a lot safer and the relative performance of it is going to be pretty strong relative to what we saw over this past cycle. And so, um, you know, if if, uh, I I love Salana still and I I actually think I've been actually maybe too negative on Salana recently, but my

framework as of recently was, you know, um, Ethereum's going to kind of have a Bitcoin like uh, play over the next few years. Um, and Salana is going to have an Ethereum like play. I I now would retract that on the Salana side. I think there's a lot of positive stuff that's emerged over the past few months. I've changed my mind, but um I do really think like Ethereum is should not be discounted as heavily as it was. >> Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, there is a kind of thesis that we've been pushing here and that the that the market's been pushing, which is like and we call it the return of fundamentals. You call it like tokens that are businesses, right?

Onchain businesses. And I mean like maybe the pendulum has swung too far in this direction because we're in a bare market. Everyone hates tokens. I'm sure we'll get some like network effect narrative based runners in in the coming bull, >> but like very clearly investors are demanding more from founders and entrepreneurs in the space than they ever have. like people just don't want to buy the Nth VC backed, you know, L1 or the next iteration of like materially better decks or like the the, you know, the 12th PEPS decks or like there's category leaders and there's like the outperformers of this bear. If you look at them, they've been these assets that have like really strong revenue and really strong buybacks.

>> Yeah. >> Um and so I'm just curious where you think we are in this progression of the maturation of the space. Um because you know I think a lot of the institutional investor class coming in they want to uh value these assets in a similar way that that they do equities. And so there's a lot of nuances to the shift. Everything from like token holders uh Q uh quarterly investor calls all the way to like buybacks to like emissions reducing inflation. We saw Salana and Near do that. >> You know there there's talks of Ethereum issuance changes. just give us kind of your high level view on this structural shift of token and and token investors in the space and kind of what that what that looks like from the institutional perspective. What's driving that? Do you think it'll continue? Where do you think

we are in that shift? >> Yeah, I mean first off, I think it's a very positive shift. Um like I think it's directly the type of stuff you want to see for a maturing ecosystem and I I mean I don't think it's going to stop anytime soon. Um I do agree that I think it's very much a pendulum and we we I think because of the fact that we're in a bare market, right? So in bare markets like you kind of lose that like belief and narrative factor and you have to look at fundamentals as a way to feel comfortable holding these types of assets. That's why they perform so well. A lot of these projects have also figured out a way to kind of diversify what's driving their activity away from cryptonnative activities right and so that's why they've been very successful.

Um but then you know you also look at something like a pumped up fund right which you know actually remain it does have very strong fundamentals. It's, you know, on a daily basis like the second or third uh most revenue producing application and good good tokconomics in terms of flow. >> Exactly. I mean it it beats out hyperlquid some days. Um but there's just a view that you know maybe the meme economy is not a very strong economy in terms of lasting through cycles. I would argue the opposite. Like it's actually shown it's very resilient in this downturn. And so um I I do think ultimately the pendulum is going to swing back. Um and you know I think that's just the nature of crypto. It's a very cyclical industry and you know people once liquidity flows back in people do start to believe and and they

don't really care about fundamentals anymore. It's just much more of like hey like this is the newest invention that's going to change the world and having a token is the only way to get access to that. And so that's very much a bull market thing. I do think like we will see I think memes we've already seen like memes have made like a semi comeback over the past two weeks. Yeah. Ansom, right? What's happened on Robin Hood chain? >> Robin Hood chain cash or something. >> Yeah. like like that demand like that kind of like animal like retail instinct is always going to be there. It just only shows up in the bull markets and that's when we'll see it come back. For now though, all these developments are extremely positive. I hope they continue. Um, you know, I I think for assets like Salana and Ethereum where

it's much more like the L1, it's going to be hard for them to ultimately make the fundamental case for why you should hold it. It's going to be driven much more by this idea of like I need the asset to transact on the train, right? like we saw with NFTs, like we saw with meme coins. Um, or it's going to be something around, hey, like this actually is kind of have like a store of value or some sort of like durable thesis like that that makes me want to hold it or I need it to stake and things like that. So, I think the pendulum is all the way on this fundamental side because of where we are in the bare market. I expect that over the next year or two, it's going to like come back a little bit. It'll probably at some point

get all the way back to the speculative side and you know that would be a good sign to kind of like re-evaluate what's going on in the market but um it'll probably be a positive sign for crypto assets prices at a whole at that point. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think it's it's actually funny if you think about the performance of the assets in that transition like maximally outperforming right now Hyperlid lighter you know AirDrop's been doing pretty well um couple others that have like really kind of uh stood the stood on their fundamentals. You know, you could probably argue that as we go down towards that pendulum shifting into more of the bull phase, you actually may get underperformance in the fundamental assets. Like I tend to think that these things have a higher floor but a lower ceiling. Zcash though on the other hand

for example [laughter] >> really low floor like that thing could tumble. I mean we saw what happened on on that X point news or whatever it was, right? >> But like the ceiling on that thing in a bull is like >> private money, bro. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] >> Like you know for it is very strong. Yeah. No, I I I mean I totally agree. It's just the nature of these crypto markets, right? And like I I think the tokens are starting to mature and that that is ultimately what will dampen some of that activity in the future. You know, ideally that comes from better regulator regulation that actually allows people, you know, I think the SEC announced today that they're going to release their new framework for um what their like s regulatory sandbox is for crypto projects soon. Um you know, I'm I'm not sure what happens with clarity.

my my boss Alex writes about it a lot and I think his odds are 50/50 right now but but that can help on the token side as well. Um but but I think until those kind of frameworks are in place, you'll continue to see kind of like the surge and and I will be interested to see what happens with the performance of some of these fundamental names because you know you could make the argument for something like hyperlquid that actually you know in a bull market it should perform even better just because the crypto volumes come back as well, right? Um so yeah, I that that's kind of where I am right now. Generally, I just feel like we're in the depths of the, you know, bare market right now. And like you you gotta asset prices are one thing. What you really want to be

looking at is like what are projects that are continuing to either if they've had success, build on that success or if they haven't been success, identify the way they need to pivot um and are executing on that, have the runway to kind of survive a bare market um and are starting to gain traction in these new areas. I I always like to be looking for frontier markets because I think that's where most of the upside is in these bull markets is um like new new markets that emerge out of crypto that nobody was paying attention to in the bear. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I'll have you know that the chat is arguing about Cardano while we speak. So, [laughter] that's good to know. Um >> Dinocoins have they always have their place, right? Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, thinking about the reshuffleling of the top 10, top 20 crypto assets right now. You know, obviously Hyperlid surged up into the top 10. Um, I think we've seen a couple other kind of uh, you know, Zcash SE surged into top 15ish. >> Um, >> is there is there any is there any thoughts on how you may see that top 15 20 reshuffling in the next bull? um you know thinking about you know I I I personally think that there's going to be a lot of RWA tokens up there >> right like I mean there might be a tokenized equity in terms of market cap on chain you know in in the 50 billion range right and so you get like figures helock is up there currently I think in

the top 10 or 12 right now um in terms >> yeah can stuff like that right so what's your >> what's your every cycle we get a reshuffleling there's like a new top 15 almost um typically the top three to five stay relatively the same Yeah. >> What's your takes there? >> Yeah, I mean I think I think you're right in terms of like what the new names that might appear up there are and and I I personally would expect like Bitcoin, Ethereum, Salana maintain their status in the top 10. Um, you know, as I as I just outlined, I'm I remain bullish on Ethereum generally. Um, I think the new kind of names that probably pop up

there that aren't there now are going to be on the AI crypto side. Um, and and I think that is probably where most of the most interesting like innovation is happening in crypto right now outside of on the RWA tokenization more like corpo chain side. Um, I think there's a lot of tailwinds going on there. Um, we're seeing it in the press play out whether that's you know government regulation and pres preventing access to models. um whether that's like figuring out how to kind of be like most optimize your price your how much you're paying for model access and the need for access to open source models. Um and then I also think there's some really interesting stuff in the GPU markets and in actually trying to tokenize inference. So um new form factors for being able to pay for

inference and access inference. Um you know Venice obviously has done very well. Bit tensor is one of these names that kind of like hangs around there. I I don't think they've quite like, you know, established a good definition of what they are and what their value is, but but they have really good builders on there. So, I I'm watching very closely the AI crypto space. I think that in the next year or two is where we see a ton of new names emerge. Some of them already launched, some of them going to launch um that are going to attract a lot of interest and and actually have use case because ultimately what a lot of these projects are providing is ways to get access to inference which right now there's infinite demand and whether there are advantages like privacy um providing it cheaper using kind of a proofof work

type mechanism um or actually tokenizing it so that you can own the inference you can use it in DeFi you can sell it I think all those are very interesting primitives that will get a lot of attraction attention just we just did a a small check into a um inference marketplace called Ant Seed. >> Oh yeah, I know they're well. Yeah, >> they're doing well already. Um the general I think they cracked $1 million AR today they announced it which you know sometimes those are those numbers are based off monthly or daily or whatever but um so the theme here is the financialization of the AI stack. Yeah, >> it's these tradable compute markets.

It's per on compute. It's financializing the inference stack. >> Yeah. And so could you just walk us through like why this is necessary? Like what is the value of tokenizing compute and having a tradable market for compute? What is the value of like taking inference and like making these things commodity- like instruments in the broad scope of like the macro environment of AI? Like who is who are the likely buyers and sellers or longers or shorters of inference and compute and why does this matter? >> Yeah. So I I mean I think there's a lot of questions still you know because it's a very early market. Um, but I think what we're seeing emerge is basically there's a lot of uncertainty over, you know, what is the value of underlying GPUs going to be and how is that going to shift over time? Are newer GPUs going

to make older ones obsolete or is there just going to be so much demand that older ones get repurposed for other things? There's a ton of underwriting going into building data centers and lending money for these GPUs. And so that, you know, creates a need for kind of hedging mechanisms. And so I think on the institutional side, you're going to have, you know, the big neoclouds, the frontier labs, the big GPU brokers that want access to kind of ways to instantly monetize this forward demand they're going to be providing. And then I think on the other side, you're going to have big lenders that need ways to kind of like have an actual price market for what what is the actual value of the of the GPUs that they're lending against at any given point. And so um I think like what we're seeing in the trad world

emerge right now is the GPU indices and futures markets and you know companies like or Galaxy is actually an investor in them. Silicon data compute exchange. Um I expect over the next year those are going to really start to pick up traction. I think on chain the way that I'm looking at it is you have companies that are tokenizing inference. So projects like Venice or Morpheus, you have um companies that are tokenizing inference production by doing proof of work to basically make inference pro provision cheaper. So names there are something like a pearl or an ambient. Um and then you have companies that are trying to make the credit vehicles that lend for buying GPUs more accessible.

And so a name like that is like USDA. I actually have a piece coming out in the next few days or maybe next week that talks about this stack and how it's emerging and how it kind of complements what's being built in traditional markets with the GPU indices and futures. >> So um this proof of useful work concept that that kind of Pearl is working on. I've seen some OTC deals get passed around for this. I saw it saw it months ago and I passed and now [laughter] it's like tripled in the OTC market and I'm like Jesus. Um so what is the value of proof of useful work? Like like what does that even mean? So I think the idea is like hey you have all of these GPUs and they're running inference right and and Pearl's model here is they say well at the same time that you run your

inference you can also just add like one small additional step that also basically is a proofof work mechanism to show that you ran that inference and you know if you win whatever the calculation is there you win the block and you get a token reward and what that does is it kind of like subsidizes your inference cost and so it allows you to prov provide inference at an even cheaper cost which allows you to get more customers you know so I think it's in my view it's a way of bringing down the cost of production for inference I think where the link is broken right now is yes you can give people a token but it it's like if you just give miners a token they're going to sell that right what what you need to see is also a demand side for that token and and this

is an issue crypto runs into quite a bit I think there's a pretty easy fix though which is basically just require for payment of the inference to be done in that token and kind token to buy the inference. It just means if they use dollars to buy inference, those dollars are used to, you know, burn the token or whatever. And then you have miners who can basically subsidize their cost of inference and provide it cheaper. We we've already seen some success here. Pearl has a partnership with Together AI um and basically they were saying, "Hey, we're able to provide inference at 25% cheaper than normal on some of these models because of the token subsidy."

Um, Ambient has basically been one of the top or cheapest providers of the Kimmy model on open router and they're just on test right now. But basically with this idea that you have miners compete with each other to provide inference at the cheapest cost. Every inference request is an auction and whoever provides it cheapest gets that auction and the idea is they're going to push that auction as low as possible because they're subsidized by the token >> and it completely flips the whole which well the push back here would be like Deepin tried this and it and the tokens failed obviously the but what this does is that it >> flips the whole Silicon Valley Frontier Lab company game on its head. Yeah.

because they're kind of that I don't know what kind of communication happens between like the major frontier labs, but there's some sort of like price setting. It's like [laughter] you're gonna do that price, we'll do this price, we'll do this one, we're all going to make money. We can still compete, but like let's not, you know, let's not do this, right? Let's just stay here, right? And we can compete on other factors. Whereas this just seems like it's like, well, I mean, that's what you guys are going to do, then here's what we're going to do. And the incentive design, if we get the token right, which is kind of what you were saying on the sell side, then this should flip the entire inference marketplace on its head. >> Yeah. So it's interesting >> and and it wasn't I would say even like that a concept that was that plausible

until maybe 6 months to a year ago when these open >> models coin fun was here >> they're really starting to pick up right and um and then you know I I wrote a big piece on this last year you also look into the decentralized training area and you know that is I think a much more difficult challenge to tackle but um I you've got this really impressive decentralized AI stack that's starting to build out um there's there's very clear advantages to it I think like has always it's it's funny when I talk to some people they're I'm like I think the big challenge here is like all right like >> how do you incorporate the token in a way that makes sense or or that like actually proves you need it and they're always like no we think the biggest challenge is on like the tech side and

actually making decentralized AI work but um you know I'm I'm not a tech guy I'm not going to say but like you know if you look at where a lot of the innovations are coming out of for example on the decentralized training side like a lot of it's coming from Google itself right because they're they're realizing they need to connect all of these distributed data centers around the world and they need to figure out a way that they can do distributed training and people are taking those improvements that are happening on the algorithms for their distributed training and applying it to decentralized training. So it >> um it's an area I'm very hopeful for once again it's a frontier market which I think is where crypto always excels and so that's why I'm very excited about it. kind of switching gears here as we close up on into Robin Hood chain. Um,

two different ways to look at this. One, >> this is the definition of the concept we call Neo finance. You've got this DeFi underpinning this uh this fully consumer grade application with, you know, millions and millions of users. These guys are going to be doing yield strategies, trading meme coins, cash, whatever it is. Um, and they're going to be doing it on, you know, basically blockchain rails. They're not going to know it. They're going to think that they're doing, you know, uh, USD yield strategies with stable coins. they're going to be getting borrow, you know, they're going to be able to borrow against their Nvidia stock and there's going to be a tokenized version that's in a morpho vault that you can then borrow against. And so there's kind of like this whole like neo finance like this is what we came here for. It's very

cool onboarding of new people into blockchains without them knowing. And then there's corpo chain. There's this a corporate chain. This has never worked in the past. Why would this be any different? >> Yeah. >> And uh they're going to have this initial kind of memecoin craze. Vlad's tweeting about memes saying RWA is the future and memes kind of contradicting himself and uh this thing's going to you know burn out like a honeymoon phase relationship. Yeah. >> So kind of where do you stand on this? >> Yeah. So for me there's like two different aspects. I think on the one side there is why is Robin Hood doing this and like watching the uh event last week which by the way was a hilarious event like one of the strangest presentations I've seen.

>> The world is flat. >> Yeah. The world is flat. Um, I think like it was very clear. They said, "Hey, listen, like we're trying to very aggressively expand our international business and we're realizing that blockchain rails are the way that we're going to do this." So, you know, I think no matter what, there's going to be a ton of users using the Robin Hood chain whether or not they know it. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be trading memes and stuff. It probably means they'll just be accessing existing Robin Hood products that but are just using the chain on the back end. I think yeah the the other side is like all right are is this going to being people that's like building permissionlessly on Robin Hood chain.

Yeah, maybe the meme stuff takes off like you know I I I think that would be good. I don't think that's going to be like a huge driver of growth. Um I I think what's probably like the biggest advantage here is people start to like see Robin Hood itself as like an open ecosystem they can build on and come up with cool products that helps accelerate Robin Hood's own business. And so that leads them to reinvest in it and open it even more. And so that that remains to be seen. Overall, like I think like I think we're past what the a big positive we're past like the period of partnership announcements for partnerships.

>> Correct. This is like live. Exactly. >> Cash Cat just made a new alltime high on the show and like Vlad's tweeting about memes. Apparently they're calling Cash Cat the Melania to Anomcoin. >> I saw that. I think that was our friend. Tulip King [laughter] tweeted that today. Anomcoin is down bad today after the Cash Cat launch, >> proving that liquidity once again is simply mercenary and does not care what chain or what token it is based on the opportunity. >> Yeah. >> And well, I I I think like this is a great example of like right now what you need to like always keep in the back of your mind is like there's just not really any liquidity. So like the failings of any sort of these tokens might not necessarily be like a failing of the token itself and more just like

it's a very mercenary environment and you know in a much more liquid environment you you can probably see a lot more of these these things with. >> Yeah. >> Ladies and gentlemen that is Lucas the head of VP of research at Galaxy Digital uh a crypto public company crypto AI public company. Lucas thanks for having us. >> Yeah thanks so much for having me. >> Thanks for coming. Um, and yeah, look forward to the end of this bear. I mean, it's a couple couple weeks, couple months, quarter, maybe if we're following the four-ear cycle. We get another low on Bitcoin in the coming weeks to months. Get a period of chop and then we're off to the races and end of Q4, Q1, hopefully alltime highs sometime in about a year from now. We're following it to a tea, a little bit of the accelerated version.

>> Yeah. >> So, not that much time left. >> Survive. >> Yeah. All right, guys. We'll be right back with our next guest here from Tokenization Tower. Thanks for rocking with us and let's give Lucas some love in the chat, guys. Let's stop fighting about Cardano. And I I know you guys are really bullish on Cardono or bearish, but uh it's not the topic of the day. So much love. >> Thank you. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

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[music] Welcome back to AI Supercycle, [music] our premier AI show airing every single week presented by Near. We cover the ins and outs of decentralized AI privacy and the future of this massive technology. Near is the blockchain for AI and the execution of AI native apps. You can check out Near's latest AI product at near.ai. Now sit back, relax, and enjoy the show.

Going 70 7th floor. All right, guys. We are back here at Tokenization Tower for episode number 41 of AI Superite Girl, our weekly premier AI show powered by our friends at Near. Visit near.com and near.ai to learn more about their private inference product. We've got Lincoln Merr. Lincoln, welcome to the tower. >> Thank you for having me. >> Good to have you, man. You are uh the lead of AI at Coinbase X42 agents. All of this is happening fast. just ended a conversation there with uh Lucas the the VP of research at Galaxy I think is your

friend and um he was speaking a lot about what that is and kind of like why this tokenized inference tokenized compute market is really growing. So why don't we start kind of here but before we do just quick intro on on yourself what do you do at Coinbase? How did you get started there? >> Yeah. Yeah. So I've been at Coinbase for about two years. Uh I lead all the different AI products. So that's uh X42, Coinbase for agents and Coinbase Adviser. Uh, I've been in the crypto space since I was like 11 or 12. I got started because I needed to buy a VPN so I could pirate video games and the only way I could buy that is by turning a Target gift card into bitcoins on local bitcoin. I've been involved ever since.

Prior to that was doing research at the Ethereum Foundation. But, uh, yeah, Coinbase is now the new home. >> Beautiful, man. And so, this kind of AI crypto crossover has happened uh, very fast. And I think I think we should start with this kind of like financialization part of it first which is this kind of growing desire to have tokenized inference and tokenized compute markets and we've seen uh different companies come out of F uh SF that have launched uh uh compute marketplaces and there's this kind of growing demand to basically speculate on on compute prices or hedge your exposure via you know if you're a data center owner etc. And then simultaneously there's also this push to really reduce the cost of inference. Right now we're seeing this kind of like narrative

unfold. I think today Ford put out an article that was like like the headline was like we replaced all the workers but AI costs more. And so there's kind of like this this drive to lower the inference costs as well. And so you got these open source inference providers and these marketplaces kind of gaining steam. Maybe just kind of unpack your view on the financialization of of the AI stack. We'll start here and we'll get into some more of the product side of things. >> Yeah, totally. And in my view and I think this is something that Sam Alman directly said which I really like the whole idea of inference or intelligence is now just becoming a utility and something that electricity or water or anything else is and part of that process is naturally going to be the uh explosion of its use but then also the

continual decrease in the cost of it as well as the ability for people to have better piping in infrastructure through which they can buy or speculate or or even hedge their exposure to this new utility. All of these financial primitives or at least a large part of them exist today for these existing utility markets and I suspect we'll see this continue over time. But the great thing about tokenization as we all know is that it makes it just so much cheaper, faster, more efficient for these markets to exist and for them to proliferate. >> Yeah. And so from from the product side of things, do you see like marginal improvements from having tokenized compute markets or tokenized inference markets or open marketplaces? Is it is it a cost thing? Is it an efficiency thing? Like what like what does it really enable? Yeah, I think the biggest

one and the most obvious one to the vast majority of people that's that's valuable is just speculation. If you think that the uh compute resources are going to become larger, there's an ability to speculate on that where today people can't get access to open AI or anthropic besides some preipo shares of that. It's it's just a more direct pure form of speculation which I think is broadly what we've seen in the crypto space recently with prediction markets being a great example of that. Uh beyond that though, like if you're a large company and you want to replace, you know, x% of employees with AI or you anticipate having a bill for compute over the next however many years, you can use these new tokenized structures and whatnot to very seamlessly hedge against that cost going into the millions of dollars per se. So it's a

nice way for people in the same farmers who sell their futures on corn futures markets for larger enterprises and tech companies to sell uh compute or buy comput hedge against issues there. And so that kind of utility framing is it's like like the way I'm thinking about it is that these these kind of like these parts of the stack are turning into like like they're being commoditized into like commodities into like tradable investable assets basically. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> And so that that creates a more fair market that is set by the market rather than by you know one single company Nvidia or the Chinese version of the chip manufacturers or whoever creates the the the GPUs they set the price because you know they have the best tech. Well, sure that can still, you know, proliferate, but we're going to

have more of a, let's call it decentralized or or or wisdom of the crowd price discovery for what are going to be, you know, the electricity of the future, right? It's that kind of utility based. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think we'll see this trend start to continue with the general tokenization or, you know, apparent speculation from potentially going from inference and LLM into maybe entire agents. I think there's this really interesting movement that we've been seeing around agentic trading that's starting to pop up and these agents that are running 247 they're paying for uh premium data on X42 to make more well-informed trading decisions which makes them more money and it's this nice positive feedback loop and I could see that also becoming this interesting space where speculation can occur even if it's on the direct

agent itself. Will this agent make money over the next 24 hours? Will it not? That opens up new exciting markets for people to watch. >> Yeah. All right. Well, let's get into the agent side from the Coinbase view. You you guys just had a system update event. I believe it was here in New York u couple weeks ago and there's a big push towards this I think you guys call it Coinbase Advisor um which is kind of like this more agentic framework for uh you know using a using intelligence to make better financial uh decisions. Maybe walk us through what your personal view view is of how agentic finance will shape will will kind of reshape the way that trading investing people are using their capital now and then we can get

into some of the coinbased things. >> Yeah, totally. So I think broadly Agentic Finance is going to become more and more prevalent until it ultimately just becomes finance. It feels like we're in the flashlight app, QR code scanner, beer drinking app era of agents right now, just like we had with mobile in the past decade or so. Uh so I think broadly what will happen over time is we start with these more frontier users and and hackers who have an agent that rebalances their portfolio for them or I can go in and say I want to invest in space. I don't know how how can I do that and over time we'll start to see these features more directly embedded into Coinbase and and other platforms as well. So that's largely what we're thinking about is how do we support the entire spectrum of users from the most

simple to the most advanced to basically have a team of financial analysts that exist and and manage their money for them. >> Yeah. And and do you think that the that these agents will do better than humans? >> I think there's a couple value props. calling them doing better than humans is a little bit nuanced. But the way that I see it is there's an orchestration gap that exists among a lot of the users where people have ideas that they want to trade on but they don't necessarily have the time or the expertise to take some broad thesis like I think quantum computing is going to go up and then implement that into financial primitives both in crypto but also across equities and prediction markets and all these different things. But an agent is very good at taking that and translating it into those actual core primitives and

actively managing that position. I've gotten liquidated so many times because I just forget about my positions. But if I had an agent managing it for me, so much easier. So I think in that regard, it will do better because it'll make more people able to express trades uh in a more streamlined fashion. >> Yeah. Okay. So what if we take the human element out of it? And and I was telling you about this thing called bot.f fun. It's this new app that I saw that's now the second largest user of X42. Um so they're really really really grow. I mean that's based on their own kind of uh marketing but uh I mean something in to the order of like you know tens of thousands of transactions x42 transactions in a given day maybe or a given month I don't know what the exact number was and so um this concept is

like we're taking agents and we're giving them the power to just interact without the human intervention. It's kind of like just I think it's like probably provide them a wallet spin up the agent and then let them go and kind of do it on their own. Uh have have you guys seen the proliferation of that on base or kind of like is it still human in the loop a lot? Like when do we take that step of like you know here's the money you're supposed to be smarter than me. You have god level of intelligence. Go make me money. Like people want to know in the chat in in in our audience like how will this technology help to maximize my my portfolio? When do we get that out of the human in the loop stage?

Are we already there? And have you seen any examples of this? >> Yeah. So, oddly enough, we've seen a lot of the fully autonomous use cases come out because this this user group that's very experimental is the same group that's very open to speculation in the crypto markets. So, we're actually seeing more people do this autonomous agent trading than we did with human in the loop trading. Uh, and I think the X42 piece, you're exactly right, is a big part of it because uh, as I said earlier, you give the agent financial independence on the internet. And if you give yourself a credit card and browse around, you can do so much more than you could if you were just, you know, trying to read through things and not have any way to pay. But if you give an agent the ability to have access to money, it

really becomes a first class citizen of the internet. And that's really what we're building toward. And one of the things we announced at this showcase was uh Coinbase for agents. It's like the Coinbase MCP. And part of that is the ability for your agent to plug into its own portfolio inside the Coinbase platform. It can go off, it can pay for things with X42. It can make trades entirely on your behalf. you can just tell your agent to set up Coinbase for agents for me. It'll go find all the documentation and do it. And I think this is kind of the first step toward massive agent autonomy that might take place. But if you're not comfortable with that, uh we just released the advisor product, which is actually uh regulated financial advice inside the retail app that is fully human in the loop. So if you still want to be in

control, that exists. So it's a it's a full spectrum of users that are playing around with this stuff and it's really just a matter of how do we get everyone in some way, shape, or form using AI with trading. >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. I just saw something today uh that reream which is like the streaming app that we use it. You can plug it into to any LLM via MCP and then operate the app from cloud or from CHPC or whatever it is and like see all sorts of you know stats and start stream schedule things. So it's this this kind of MCP concept is like expanding the use case of like all the apps that are possible to use within AI. I want to talk about some of the more current happenings. First is Trump and the government banning or restricting the usage of high intelligence models to the

public. So Fable 5 came out, they pulled it back. Then they've they've reinstated it and was like, it's fine. Opus or uh CHBC 5.6 came out, they pulled it back. Then today I saw something that Trump says uh that they're basically allowing it now. What's happening here? Is this intelligence that good that we it's a national security issue? Should we be nationalizing intelligence as well? Is it like a is it a a a national defense issue? What what's your take here? Yeah, it's fascinating to watch all of this happen and with the backdrop of however many weeks ago the whole mythos Ccash thing as well where like I crypto is in a really unique position because all these smart contracts are immutable and if there are going to be exploits if I

was a a hacker or I had a quantum computer the thing that clearly is the biggest uh pot of gold in the world right now is is Bitcoin or any one of these smart contracts that you could just exploit and hack into. So I imagine what will happen and what we'll see play out is that for the very short term if mythos and these other models that are amazing at cyber security get leaked to the public or otherwise made available through open source means whatever it might be. We're going to have this short-term period of just complete chaos where all sorts of different projects and protocols are going to see hacks both in web 3 and web 2. But once that initial period is over, we're just going to see these models become more of a defensive security set.

or whatever you put through mythos. Mythos says it's good and then you're safe and actually the the you know imminent potentially imminent nationalization of these labs and whatnot, >> I imagine that a large part of the uh the speculation around these models uh performance today is due in part to upcoming IPOs. If I had a massive company and I could go say, "Hey, our model is so good that the government is trying to ban it, >> that's a pretty good reason to buy. >> It's bullish, right? It's marketing."

>> Yeah. >> So, I I think a large part of it is that and I think we'll look back on Fable and Mythos as the same way we do about like GPT3.5, which is an exponential increase in the capabilities that we have today, but far from the end state of where we see these things. >> Um, so yeah, I imagine this will be short-term chaos as with everything. AI is a big boogeyman right now, but there's a lot of lot of space still to grow. Yeah, I heard some rumors that Coinbase got a call from Anthropic before the release kind of like giving access to it to make sure that that Coinbase was was all battle tested for security as well. I I imagine these these large labs they almost have like a moral d or like a business corporate commercial duty to private companies to

uh make sure that their stuff is all beefed up before giving this to access to to the public on the nationalization of AI. Anthropic Google um and Open AI are all American companies, right? They're, you know, typically out of like Palo Alto or whatever it is, right? is is is America just dominating the AI race here? Obviously, China has these extremely similar models that are way cheaper, but it's becoming like somehow the AI game, if you will, has turned into USA versus China, which is like everything in this world as far as superpowers. Is is America just dominating the AI race right now? And is this a nationalization? Is is AI becoming nationalized in your view? I so your first question on if America is

dominating I think very clearly yes I think China is taking a probably the best strategy they can given that being the case uh with how they're using or open sourcing all of their models and making it extremely cheap and and easy to use for anyone. Uh so I think that is the right approach if you're coming from behind you want to go from the position of oh we should make these things open and and here's an opportunity for you to get cheaper access to intelligence and whatnot. Uh but for the time being yeah America's absolutely dominating. Um, in terms of your second question around like should we nationalize? Is that something that will happen? >> Yeah, like Trump wants to take 5% of open AI and or like they want to give 5% to the government or something.

>> Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I I'm not really opposed to it. I think it does make sense from the perspective of aligning interests. 5% of a trillion dollar company is a massive amount for the government to just sit on and hold. Yeah. >> But it's not so big that the government is necessarily incentivized to go king make open AI or anthropic in any sense. So, you know, it's interesting. It's the same thing that happened with Intel as well. It feels like we're entering an era of uh sort of nationalization of these companies providing better alignment when the government can be so helpful to them. Uh my big concern though would be that if uh the government is aligned with open AAI and anthropic and lab number three comes out maybe maybe Grock SpaceX whatever it might be is there now a reason to support that lab on the basis that

they're an American Elon supported and he generally has the best interests of the country uh project or are they going to side with anthropic and open AI because they have 5% of equity or whatever. Yeah. So that to me is going to be a pretty interesting thing and see how that plays out over time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So, um, with FA, so Fable 5 is free right now. They extended their free period, I think, until like July 12th or something. Yep. >> Um, and so people are like really gung-ho about how how smart and intelligent this thing is and just how great it is. And um what you can do right now with your open claw is you can just go download the Chinese version of Fable 5 or of the most premier intelligence and it's it's almost like advertised as like 95% as good for 5% of

the cost. >> Mhm. >> Is this a problem? Like is is is AI is China going to pop the AI bubble that is happening right now? like what is your view on the price of inference as it pertains to the quality you get with American models versus the price as it pertains to the quality you get with the Chinese models? >> I think it's quite ironic that that these Chinese models are actually providing the capitalist incentive for intelligence to be proliferated across the United States in a pretty meaningful manner. I it's uh to me I think it's totally fine like it it just means that that anthropic and open AI are going to have their backs against the wall continuing to innovate and if we are truly the leaders in uh in AI then it should become very apparent over time that we have the best models it's not

going to be something that China is able to keep up with uh and even if they are I I think the biggest concern is around all these data centers spin commits all these different things that are happening right now and to those bubbles get burst if uh open source models continue to keep up broadly I think so but there's such a massive stack from from end to end in terms of chipm and and data centers and even like the utilities, water, electricity that are required for these models to run. Even if inference gets way cheaper, I could still see that helping the US because you're going to want American-owned on American land data centers to run those models. You're never going to outsource those to some data center in Beijing. Uh and and broadly, I think it would be helpful for 100 times more as many

companies that have access to Frontier Intelligence today to get that access. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's just interesting because when you do run like the when you run things through cloud console on the API, the amount of spend that you incur on any premium model on on an opus is insane. Like every telegram message that I send to my open claw is like 10 cents, 20 cents. It's like what are we doing here? You know, then you pull it into like the like the Kimmy model or whatever and it's like a scent. >> It's just like drastically different. >> Yeah. And I imagine too for the whole trading use case as well, this will start to become a pretty interesting piece where these models are going to start performing differently. We're going to see models specifically tuned for trading. Uh I've been playing around a little bit with Fable and having it

kind of like rebalance my portfolio for me and whatnot. And it's great at it. And you know, given it's managing a thousand plus dollars, it's actually still pretty cheap overall compared to what it's providing for me. Instead of me paying 220 to some financial adviser, I can do it myself and pay a couple bucks a day. >> Guys got size thousand bucks. Um [laughter] um what about data centers in space is or in the ocean? There's a couple startups doing both. Um how realistic is it to put data centers in space? >> I think every moonshot goal sounds absolutely ridiculous when you first start with it. And I think that one too is uh looking 20 years down the line to and making a lot of assumptions about how AI continues to grow at an exponential rate until then. If we get

to the point where we saturate the amount of space available in the US or these, you know, protests and and conflicts around data centers in people's backyards, if that really reaches a boiling point, I could see that being the case. But it would require such a uh >> such a lift both in terms of the cost to get these things up there, but also the value that they'd have to provide that I would be surprised if we see that in the next decade plus. >> Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I saw um Blackstone pulled out of a large data center deal recently. >> Um it was massive and now that data center is kind of uh kind of in trouble in terms of like getting the funding to finish the job. And so, >> do you just with that in mind like do you think that this kind of this this

conversation that we're having about inference like do you think that we're going to see kind of a return to cheaper costs and like less production in in the in the AI world? Like it seems like it's a neverending decade long plus buildout happening, but it feels like right now we're kind of in this phase of like uh everyone was token maxing like we were like let's spend all the tokens like give your employees unlimited tokens everyone needs to just use AI and then now it's kind of like well let's not use it unless we have to and it makes sense and then so this kind of like shift even though it's happened relatively quickly last like quarter or so uh it is affecting now some people's outlooks on the amount of capex and you know how much spending that they

want to invest into this industry. Um, do you think like that this kind of reentering of reality in terms of like how to best use these tools could affect like the investment landscape broadly or like the like these IPOs? Just, you know, give us a sense of like, you know, ground us here where we truly. Yeah, I I think it's still so early in terms of the AI rollout that even if these cheap models ultimately win, which seems like they will for for most use cases, uh there is still so much adoption that is yet to occur that the general market isn't necessarily seeing the types of payment volumes that we may

see or inference volumes that we may see in the future. To your point, the vast majority of companies in New York and SF have adopted AI, but there are a ton of companies in middle America and globally that have yet to even understand what cloud code is or they just have just now heard of it and are just getting started with it. And all of those places that have yet to see any real traction or adoption of AI are still sort of yet to be disrupted. And whether that comes from Fable and Mythos or whether it comes from GLM and Kimmy and some of these other Chinese models, uh there's massive massive massive amounts of tokens to still max.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, just kind of circling back to Coinbase as as we kind of come to a close here in a few. Um what is the future of Coinbase's AI rollout? Like what is the grand vision that you know you talked to Brian or talk to to Emily and you're like here's what the Coinbase AI product vision is going to be. What is that? what is what is the kind of broad endgame there and how does that look like in the scope of fintech applications or you know kind of like consumer grade investing apps. >> Yeah. So broadly the goal is to make Coinbase the backbone of the post AGI economy and really what that means is that we think there's going to be a proliferation of agents across the internet. All of those agents are going

to need to have financial accounts in order to exist as a more autonomous entity and we want that to exist on Coinbase. We have the Coinbase for agents product to give those agents their primary financial account. We have X42 and base and USDC all to provide the settlement layer in Rails on which internet native microtransactions can happen at billion plus transaction scale. Uh, and we're doing all of this in a way that both is aligned with a lot of the enterprises that are now adopting and using X42 like I don't know if you saw Cloudflare is now allowing and they, you know, gate 25% of the internet uh to pay per use with X42 if your agent wants to go crawl for a website. So, we're seeing this shift happen and we're meeting it in real time while also trying to get to this broad vision of if

there's a product on Coinbase that exists, your agent can use it. If your agent is going to be making making a payment, it's going to have something to do with the Coinbase stack. >> And does that require like a lot of like rewiring of the product that has been built for humans? Because people often say like crypto was built for robots. Crypto was built for agents. So like the underlying tech of like zeros and ones and transaction hashes and addresses. It doesn't really it's not really appealing to the human eye, but that doesn't really matter for agents. It's just a synthesization of of information rapidly and then gives you an output, right? So it can really rapidly you know digest this whereas humans you know you check the address like 10 times you're like all right let me check it you know >> so product side what needs to change

like what is the what does that change look like >> yeah the analogy I've used and I might have already said it here is like the the 2010s we saw web to mobile was the big story the 2020s are being defined by mobile to agents uh and that's both a shift in terms of like UI and user experience and how you're interacting but it's also critically important because these agents as uh a byproduct of being able to act fully autonomously is going to a substantially larger number of retooling in terms of like how do we take something that externalized to an AI agent that's interacting in cloud or opencloud or whatever. Uh but broadly we have the the rails and we have the tools to do it and it's just a matter of some slight reconfigurations to make it all uh safe

and friendly to agents. >> Beautiful. Um man, I mean any closing thoughts, Lincoln, on this kind of convergence between blockchain and AI, where you see a lot of value being captured, you know, where you see a lot of room for improvement, what specific areas you're excited about in this kind of broad convergence, kind of just close us out here. >> Yeah, I think uh we've seen a lot of legitimization from large enterprises, AWS Verscell Cloudflare Stripe all adopting agentic payments on crypto rails, but we have yet to see a really clear demand side piece. So until the average consumer is making microp payments with their agents or or doing these transactions which ultimately I think will happen entirely behind the scenes, there's a gap to be filled and I think there's a massive opportunity for builders out there to build the tools

and the infrastructure and most importantly like the consumerf facing apps. It's the exact same problem we run into in crypto in terms of uh we need more consumer stuff. We need things that people are going to play with and use. Uh that to me is where I think there's the the biggest opportunity coming over the next couple of uh months and years. Uh, and I think broadly payments and trading are going to become the biggest use cases for for AI interacting with money in the next six to 12 months. >> Love it. Ladies and gentlemen, that is AI Supercycle episode number 41 powered by our friends at Near. Visit near.ai to learn more about the private inference tool, Lincoln Mr. the head of AI product at Coinbase live from tokenization tower. Lincoln, thanks for joining us.

Great to have you here. And guys, we'll be right back with our next guest, Marcus, some charts and some conversation about what's happening out there. Don't go anywhere. Heat. Heat. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

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[music] know we get >> [music] [music] >> We get deeper. We get deep, you know. We get deep. [music] We get deep. We get deep. You know, we get deep. [music] >> Ladies and gentlemen, freedom guy. listening while driving.

>> Oh boy. >> So, we're hearing rumors that Cash Cat is the Melania to Ansom. Robin Hood chain is [laughter] on. >> The Melania to Anom. >> The Melania to Ansom's Trump. Anom flipped Trump. >> That's wild. >> I know. So, I mean, guys, there's a lot of lines going on here, but we pretty much rejected from where we needed to reject from, and now we got to get a bounce. Whose lines are these? >> We got to get a bounce here. Our boy hype looks still great. Just consolidation, higher lows, respecting our lines. Purr Purr's on its deathbed right now.

>> Oh no. >> My god. Zcash little consolidation lighter low consolidation range forming. Arrow took a big dump. Should be all right. Still looks good. Still looks good. Above above our levels. Looking pretty good. Listening while running a greater much funner. Yes, even Darth Vader needs to go to the dentist sometimes. There you go, freedom guy. So, Rob, I mean, we had a pullback obviously. Um, but I still think I think our summer bounce continues.

I think we got >> But you're of you're of the mind that we make new lows before the cycle continues. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the consensus view honestly. >> But are we going with the consensus here? Are we uh we thinking outside the box? >> I don't know. What What are we doing, Rob? >> I don't know. It just seems like everyone is like just three to four more months and one leg lower and then it's off to the off to the races. Yeah, it sounds about right to me. >> I don't know. I mean, that's kind of what I keep hearing people say. And typically when there's that view and it's like everyone is like, "All right, I'm just gonna I'm gonna wait for this one more dump and then I'm going to go I'm going to go buy." It's like maybe we

don't get that dump. >> Rob, you've been um you've been bullish since 112K. >> I'm a I am a uh I'm a optimist. I am. >> You've been bullish since 112K, man. >> Yep. But at 120 I was bearish. >> Bitcoin got to 124. >> I know. >> So insane. >> So insane. >> How about stocks, man? What are they doing out there? >> Um, you didn't participate in our daily equity segment today, but Eric Balenunas says that the stock market is now too big to fail. Not only that it's like big and dominant and continues to accelerate and just, you know, gets bigger and

bigger, but it actually has reached the size of systemic importance to the extent that it will get bailed out by the Fed in the case of a bear. And so, >> you know, obviously a lot of people own stocks, but he's actually calling for in the case of a bare market, it's not just big and people get affected that the Fed actually comes in, prints money, lender of last resort, same people, same entity that bailed out the banks in 2008, comes in and bails out the stock market if it gets too far down. Dude, Canton, our our 15 cent coin >> stable coin

>> has officially 15 cent stable coin has officially broken broken down. >> Yeah, it has >> that range is no longer. >> Yep, it is no longer stable coin. >> Yep. No longer. Let's see what happens though. >> This thing was just so stagnant and did not get affected by anything. >> I know. And then it randomly dumped when the market was bouncing >> going up. Yeah, this is just the supply control on this thing is so weird. It moves totally asymmetrical to everything else. I like the fact that it's uncorrelated from everything else, but there is obviously shenanigans insider deals that are being done tokens in

exchange for super validators that we I mean if you understand or know about these deals and I'm sure it's a great thing to trade because the supply is so tight but >> and it's uncorrelated but you'd have to really be on the inside tracking governance forums in the Discord board like you'd have to really really be in the trenches in the in the canton trenches >> to trade it effectively. >> Looks like lighters came out with some latency engineering. It's end to end transaction processing dropped from 280 milliseconds to a flat 55 which is quite literally under the reaction to the human eye.

Um there is uh quite a bit of technical technical things here and yeah you can see that the end to end latency engine you see they call this jitter >> you get these spikes >> in latency >> and you can see that the latency spikes have just completely subsided and so it looks like they removed deep copy elimination and allocation fixes have deployed and boom, jitter's gone and the API layer uh is far more sustainable.

>> Very cool. >> Wow. >> What is the lighter to hype ratio looking like these days? >> Yeah. I mean, that is my bull to b that that is my current bull versus bear sentiment. And so what we saw was we saw this massive Wait, is this right? There's no way this is right. No. [snorts] Yeah, this is right. So I believe >> What are you looking at?

>> No, this is not right. I'm trying to get the um hype lit ratio. Sorry. You can uh we you can do like two different pairs on here somehow >> like denominate one acid against the other. >> Yeah. And so you can see that like here >> lighter really started outperforming hype >> right only up 59% lighter up 100%. But then as soon as we get the market getting scared, lighter drops significantly and hyperlquid still drops but I don't think

as significantly >> I mean this isn't just like that spurt of outperformance is just a signal of like a rerating >> that was just a one time. >> But I also think these things are relatively correlated to track one another. But I also think that in periods where like soul and ETH when in periods where Bitcoin in the market broadly is more bullish more risk on people will be buying lighter more than hype and it will outperform. That's kind of my take. >> So like high higher beta.

>> Yes. And then in kind of scarier environments people are stressed out not sure about the market. They'll probably sell off lighter harder. But maybe that's changed. But I I don't know. We'll see. Lighter's down less today after being up more. So >> I think that's just a case of like something's a smaller market cap in the same category. They're going to be correlated in the same category, but one is a higher beta play of the other. >> Yeah. >> Because it's a smaller market cap. >> That's general rule of thumb. >> Yeah.

>> Um yeah, we're gonna see. I mean, if we do get I don't know. I I might be in the camp of like we're not going to swing the lows. Maybe we swing the lows. I just don't know if we make new lows. >> Our M&A on on Purr is just under one now. >> Definitely not what we needed to see. >> Let's see. Things are bouncing a little bit. >> They're up almost a billion dollars. >> Who's up?

>> Hypog strategies. Okay. Isn't that crazy? >> Pretty cool. Good for Sheamus. >> Crazy. All righty, guys. We've got Curve Mike in the back. Stabled Up episode 40. Our lovely host Rob is going to host Stabled Up Curve Mike. And >> oh, you're not sticking around for this one. >> It's going to be electric. So, >> where are you going? I I I got some things to do over here. I'll be back after this guest and the paragon guest.

>> You coming out? You coming back to to close out the show today? >> Yes, sir. >> All right, >> let's pass you over to Mike, guys. Stay tuned. We'll take a quick quick quick quick standby. We'll get Mike set up. We'll get you guys set up and we'll get the Stabled Up show started. Let's get it. [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music]

[music] >> We get we get we get we get know we get [music] know we get we We get deep know we get deep know [music] we get deep we get deep know we get deep know [music] we get deep we get deep know we get deep we get we get deep we get [music] deep we get we get deep [music] know we get

>> [music] [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. The >> show is made possible by FRA, and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet, powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stable coin super cycle made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up our weekly stable coin show. All right, we are back with our weekly stable coin segment presented by Fracks. Today we've got Michael Erggov of Curve. He's been building in the space for a number of

years. Curve was one of the OG pioneers of the stable coin space. Uh it's an absolute pleasure uh to have you on the show today, Michael. Um, I'm excited because stable coins feels like one of the few industries where we have a super cycle going on. I'm talking about tokenization, talking about prediction markets, talking about pers, but it feels like the industry itself is kind of underpinned by stable coins. You're a leader in stable coin infrastructure. Curve has been around underpinning stable coins for a long, long time. Uh, you're also very, very technical. So, I'm excited to get into some of the depths here. Um, you've got yield basis as well, which is a little bit of a newer project, but uh, today I

think we're going to focus a little bit more on Curve. Um, and so, you know, you've spent six years plus developing liquidity infrastructure for stable coins through Curve. Um, you know, we were we were very in the weeds uh, when Curve was originally getting built. It was among the DeFi Legos and it was, you know, specifically for stable coins. Maybe you could talk us through some of the more, you know, recent like advancements in stable coins and curve. I also want to get your opinion on the open US dollar that consortium stable coin that we that we heard. Maybe maybe we'll start there. Uh I want to make sure uh that we get your audio

situated here. Leo, just tell me are we are we good on audio? Okay. Um, so Michael, why don't we start there? Uh, obviously Circle and Tether have been, you know, kind of the the the leaders in the space. Curve obviously as well, uh, in this space, more on the liquidity infrastructure side. >> Maybe you could just give us a little bit of a primer, >> you know, on your take on stable coins. Where are we at today? And I want to get your take on Open US dollar. >> Right. Right. Yeah. So today is somewhat different from what it was in OG times. In OG times, we had a lot of experimentation happening with fully

decentralized stable coins or maybe not so decentralized, but I would say in some ways um in some ways algorithmic, right? Like even collateral debt position is algorithmic and it undeniably works. There are quite a few today. But um yeah, so uh some stable coins are like that and some stable coins are redeemable um powered by um deposits somewhere. So Tether, USDC and newer stable coins like PI USD, USDG and whatever, right? Um, and I think most recently we have mostly a lot of push

with redeemable stable coins because uh many players started realizing it's uh probably probably something good to participate in but at the same time it's not not easy because uh there are existing players like uh tether and circle you mentioned. Yeah, abs. Absolutely. Tether and circle redeemable stable coins, algorithmic stable coins were sort of like, you know, the big thing. We obviously saw what happened to Terara, you know, USDT, uh, excuse me, Terra USD. And, you know, this had some fundamental, uh, you know, mechanism design flaws as a part of it.

>> Um, >> not only that, yes. >> Yeah, absolutely. There was there was plenty of, uh, shenanigans happening uh, with Terra. So as we're thinking through like the mechanism design for stable coin infrastructure as we prepare for institutional liquidity come on chain I think that is what we're seeing play out we're seeing the likes of JP Morgan banks financial institutions everyone is thinking through tokenization and stable coins are a very fundamental part of tokenization >> can you give us maybe an update on how curve is tackling stable coins in this more maybe modern stable coin era.

>> Um yeah. Well, originally what st what curve was designed for is to swap between stable coins of the same denomination. That was what it started with, right? And uh it was well the need was clear. there was stable coin like D for example which which is decentralized and you would want to uh exchange it to USDC or USDT which you essentially withdraw to your bank account or whatever uh or you know doing the reverse as well right uh today it's more like exchanging between redeemable stable coins but you know with the same

uh with the same algorithm it works. Uh and basically this infrastructure plays a role of some sort of bridge connecting different stable coins. Maybe some stable coin redeems better in the US. Maybe some stable coin better redeems in Europe or in Asia or maybe I don't know maybe there is something special in New York like bit license and you need another stable coin and curve essentially under underpinned liquidity between all those kinds of stable coins all the time but you know that's a part of curve right uh we have multiple

things going on But this is probably the earliest uh like something Curve started with and it's probably still the biggest part. >> Yeah. Um Okay. And now another part of the stable coin world that has been sort of the the subject of mixed opinions. Um I've heard people say that, you know, we're going to get non- US dollar denominated stable coins. It's going to overpower the US dollar uh you know, portion of the market. And then others say, you know, there really is no reason for non- US dollar stable coins to exist and the FX market, you know, is essentially dominated by the US dollar.

I also want to talk to you about Forex. What does it look like when the Forex market is brought on chain? >> Is there a reason to to tokenize and create non US dollar stable coins? Where where do you stand on this issue? >> Yeah. Well, that's interesting because this process of tokenizing non US dollars stable coins started pretty early is still in OG times. I think it was uh Stasis Euro uh Euro S to uh to essentially as a first uh Euro stable coin but um well few others appeared and they are useful. I must say that um and maybe more useful is not something like

circles uh euro c um well euro is great because you know it's supported in multiple exchanges but indeed when you go on an exchange maybe maybe you don't really need that kind of stuff but um there are stable coins which you can redeem directly to your bank account like you know you have euro stable coin and uh redeem it to IBAN and there we go. There are a few like that like manarium for example and they u also exist for quite some time but what happened most recently um fintex appeared fintex which u essentially made

crypto cards and they do have these effects u effects need right and it appears that effects they can get is not not always good it's Okay. But they can do better, right? and they started using these um well just just started so it's not like not a big use but it's notable and I started noticing demand onchain like real demand which um which powers uh which is kind of powered by these uh fintexs um real demand for to exchange between euro and US dollar

>> for example or or Swiss Frank. There is a Swiss Frank stable coin which you can sort of redeem um Franken coin and I did use that quite a bit to pay bills. Uh it works and uh yeah you just can go on curve and you know buy it and pay bills and it works and it this whole process appears to be well because it's on all onchain appears to be actually actually faster than what I do in banks for some reason. For me it's more convenient for crypton natives it will be more convenient as well for uh people who come from USD world to pay in euros I

don't know u but it does seem to be sometimes more economical >> but here is the thing um I actually calculated how much will it take uh to to get fx happening on chain like if you do it Um I don't know if you do a big push for that what should it be? It appears that well you need to get access to markets with a very very small spread. Well not you but arbitrage traders. So they will have to buy on chain redeem uh swap in some um you know some external markets and arbitrage back to the chain.

So what sort of spread should be there? It appears that spread which for make that working should be just several beeps very very small and these spreads are not usually not usually available to uh to like uh to anyone uh they are available to banks but minimum amount to trade is big like I don't know a million or something. So pools on change should be fairly huge to power that like probably hundreds of millions or a billion like really a little too big. Uh so it didn't happen um it didn't happen as a big push right

but that's only true if all your trades are arbitrage trades. uh if you have real demand then you can have very small pools and they will do the job to do well to have real demand you need to have real users who do that and real users started appearing these fint tags so I'm very optimistic about um about FX moving onchain but it will not move like you know with banks doing tokenizing things and then doing big FX push on chain. It looks like it's happening the other way around from small to big >> and um yeah, so I think we will have

some years um of growth of effects on chain. It's hardly noticeable today, but let's see what it will be in a couple of years. Yeah, I you I've been sort of thinking this through this thesis out loud on this show and I'm curious as it relates to FX and just generally whether you you seem to agree with it, which is that the consumers are really they have their consumer behavior ingrained in them. When we go buy a cup of coffee or or really anything these days, we just tap our card. And the way in which this gets presented to us is just a number on a screen. This number

is how much money I have in my bank account. I tap my card and the number gets smaller. That money ends up in the merchants's account. Their number gets bigger >> behind this number in my bank. They have [snorts] fiveyear treasuries, 10-year treasuries. They have mortgages in this person. They have bank deposits. They have li assets and liabilities. They don't show any of that to me. And so from my perspective, everything is just this number and I have my consumer behavior is just tap this card, number gets smaller, get my things. Merchant, same thing except their number gets bigger when I buy the thing. My my theory is that all of this can stay the

same. I can tap my card. I can see the number. Everything behind the scenes. It can be the bank that determines, okay, fiveyear treasury, 10-year Treasury, stable coins. Before, no, there was no stable coins. But now, they can choose to hold on the bank's balance sheet, hold on their balance sheet, stable coins right next to all these other assets mortgages liabilities assets and they can still just show me the number. My consumer behavior never has to change. And so to consumers and to merchants and we've been thinking through this about how people are going to adopt stable coins or point of sale systems and all these things, none of that has to change. It's

can it can be up to the banks that are cing a lot of these cash assets to choose to denominate their balance sheet in stable coins. And from the consumer perspective, everything stays the same except money gets into the account faster. the the ups and the downs, the the processing when we see pending transactions, it just takes less time for it to for it to be processed and maybe it's cheaper in fees. Everything else can be done by the bank through the settlement of transactions up to them as far as how they denominate their balance sheet. I I'd like to get your your you know, do you do you see like is this the right way to think about the adoption cycle of stable coins in 2026? And maybe we can also think through later about

how this applies to the foreign exchange market. >> Yeah, possibly this is right like integration of stable coins as infrastructure, right? But also um well I'm as a as a user I just I only put stable coins in my cards today. I I don't use uh bank cards. I use this um cards which are filled with stable coins. So I just send stable coins there. That's more convenient for me.

But you know I'm cryptonative. There are a few other cryptonative people like that. Um but yeah, it's um it's quite possible that uh all this stable coin stuff that it could happen actually outside the financial institutions that maybe maybe users will will hold stable coins, right? And maybe it's it will be only like uh entries and exits and point of sale terminals and stuff like that which is uh which is processed by financial institutions.

>> And I I often have this this thought when I'm thinking about the adoption cycles of new technology. Sometimes it feels like an evolution which is a bit more peaceful. Other times it feels like a revolution, maybe a little bit more violent, right? And like people do change their consumer behavior, right? The former, the peaceful evolution feels a little bit easier. You know, maybe it takes a longer time frame, but it happens slowly and somewhat easily over time, maybe without us even noticing. Whereas the the more violent revolution is, you know, there is a reason for you to change your behavior and choose to use stable coins rather than the banks doing it for you. Obviously yourself,

you're you're an innovator, early adopter in this world. You've chosen to ch to to put stable coins onto your cars and use that in your everyday purchases. Do you think most people are going to take the revolutionary approach and and you know do the do the the mental work to choose stable coins or do you think >> they will choose stable coins only if they have problems not choosing stable coins? I think like if they have problems with banks like banks being too slow or banks not opening banks bank accounts for them or something they will use stable coins.

>> Mhm. >> But if they don't have any issues they probably won't. >> Right. And so a lot of people on the show they come on they say every asset will be tokenized. Digital assets are every asset. And if we do end up with every asset on chain, eventually all of those people, they will have their assets on chain. Do you think the majority of people are going to be taking this revolutionary approach because banks have a lot of problems or do you think banks will figure it out? They'll figure out that this technology is important and it's inevitable and they will implement it for people on their behalf before the people end up migrating off and doing it themselves.

Well, I think it will be sort of hybrid because you still do need to interact with real world and this is where banks will probably inevitably take the lead. So, people probably will use this um I don't know this infrastructure a little bit more directly or packaged in into some more kind of trustless products. But you still need uh the old good players to interact with the real world.

>> And how does Curve fit into this? Like you know every chain and company and application these days seems like it it has this institutional strategy. Like how do you see institutions using Curve for stable coin settlement and execution maybe differently than consumers might use this protocol? Yeah, I think with institutions it could could be that FX is a right angle actually. Um otherwise institutions they they actually had quite a bit of problems using DI. They would love to but they they are not allowed to do it easily. And these barriers they

disappear not immediately. It takes time. I think if you open the floodgates at some point that will work but uh since the you know these floodgates don't disappear immediately right then some services are being built to interact uh with blockchain directly and in institutions still take their part like for example you can deposit stable coins in a bank in Switzerland in with many banks actually already and that actually will work. Um but yeah uh but whatever you do with a stable coin like

maybe let's say I don't know I want to buy stocks with stable coin and maybe for me it's easier to go on chain if they are on traded on chain and do it than to go with my bank and I don't even know what what should I do to do it. it's uh so um unclear I would say well if you are in the US it's it's fairly easy you go to I don't know E trade or whatever and buy it fairly easily or whatever whatever you do uh if you are here and you want to buy American stock I don't know actually where to go so and with crypto it's kind of I don't know

it's it's easier you have a whole world open to you no no regist registration needed just you know just have your wallet and and you go. >> Yeah. And part of you know the access the access that we have once you know we have this wallet uh we are we essentially have global access to all of the assets that are on chain but we need those assets to be on chain to begin with. I I've said on the show and and I I like this. I'm curious what you think about it. Like a a dollar that's onchain tends to stay onchain and you know a dollar offchain tends to stay onchain.

The friction is when we try to cross the bridge. Now in order for us to do that and and us to get access to all these things and the world open up to us, we need all of these assets to be on chain to begin with. And equities are a great example of this because you know in order for us to get access to equities we first need to move those onchain. Um and it feels like stable coins are kind of the gateway, right? We it was initially the first thing that we got tokenized. >> Stable coins are the gateway. Absolutely. And yeah, um if stable coins of non US dollar stable coins are more convenient for some locations, yes, probably another potential gateway. Um but yes,

absolutely. And uh tokenized assets they um they can have lots of benefits apart from access from being onchain like you can have innovative products like yield basis based on uh built on top of those right for why wouldn't you be able to earn yield on your stocks even if they are not producing dividends right so what if they are not dividend stocks but you still have them increasing uh in one or other way, right? So maybe it's not just buying and selling and uh that's interesting. That's what DeFi is about.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And and yield basis is a great example of this. Making an asset productive even when like you're saying it's not paying dividends. Um >> like Bitcoin. >> Exactly. Bitcoin [clears throat] is a great non-ividend producer >> and and Ether kind of kind of pays dividends. >> Yeah, it does. It does. Um yeah, Sailor could uh Michael Sailor could could certainly use it to his benefit these days. Um >> absolutely. >> We, you know, we're continuously seeing this. We're seeing the adoption play out. Um FX is coming online, but it it it, you know, it has this friction between the fiat system and uh and the onchain system. Once we are in the onchain world and we have all these

assets here, access is open. It's much more seamless. Have you considered moving cur like taking curve into a position where it's able to facilitate a fiat cash leg like the famously on curve, you know, you have these tri pools and whatnot, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> All of that is smart contract enforced and and it makes it, you know, codified. But the hard part now and and I think the hard part maybe a few years ago in 2020 2021 was exactly this. We didn't have the onchain primitives to underpin a protocol that was able to facilitate the trading between these stable coins and we needed that. Now it feels like the hard part is like it's almost like the non-technical stuff. It's like the b

it's like the boring regulatory the boring like you know like paperwork that is required when you're working in like the offchain world. It feels like we've got like a lot of zero to one in the onchain world but now the most inefficient part the part that needs the innovation is like the the the on-ramping because once we have it onchain we have a lot more infrastructure built out. Have you considered adding like a a fiat component to Curve? >> Yeah, I thought about it, but but you know, I think that maybe uh maybe um maybe people who are who have more experience in that boring part should be doing the boring part, right? So there

are plenty of things which are not completely solved in uh in the complex world, right? So impermanent loss being one but effect is not quite solved. I'm hearing from these uh from these uh gateways essentially right so we've got this euro right we can change euro to dollar using banking but we are finding that inefficient we want to do it onchain but where is the liquidity we want liquidity right so this needs to be properly solved this is a problem right so they they are really telling that and

uh I I think um yeah so so infrastructure part is not quite solved. We have something but not everything and um yeah you of course you can do it like um well you can do it in it in an almost order book way. you can hire market makers instead of um instead of centralized exchanges they do market making on unis swap 3 and whatever and it will sort of work but like it um it it is actually less efficient than it can be when it's fully automated I believe right so automated market making is not yet fully solved right and we have plenty of work to do

>> got it yep and there's pioneers out out there that are that are working on this. And so what I'm what I'm hearing is, you know, right now you've got this Europe this euro to US dollar, you know, forex industry that is to the tune of billions if not more, you know, uh, every day, every week. And so bringing that onchain is more efficient. Can we use the same infrastructure like you know to go from euro to USD is it as simple as going from you know fracks to curve USD to onchain assets once they're tokenized or >> that's the idea it's not as simple algorithmically though it's it's actually harder technically but it is possible to do it uh to feel it that

simple right it it just u well wasn't fully figured out so it's quite a bit of research which is needed. But this research probably would have happened earlier on curve. I did make uh pools which support euro back in what 2022 or something right but um these were not quite well optimized because there was no demand almost but now the demand is picking up and it's not just what we see it's even those uh those companies are even asking what can you do right so so

this started happening and demand is finally there and we need to we need to actually optimize these things and this will inevitably happen >> and could you give us a bit of a clue as to what optimizations can be done like where are you focusing and spending your resources >> right right so in this particular area um it's all about how you manage your concentrated liquidity First automatic market makers like unis swap one or two did not have concentrated liquidity. Curve from the very beginning did have concentrated liquidity. Probably it was the first AML

with concentrated liquidity but it was concentrated about around one price $1, right? Um in 2021 um I made crypto swap which essentially automatically managed concentrated liquidity. Uh but for like very volatile pairs it was well it was given an advantage but uh you still would have this impermanent loss issue. So not so interesting uh for euro to dollar right for euro to dollar or Swiss Frank to to dollar to euro right um for these currencies

um you well prices don't change that much so liquidity in principle can out earn the impairment loss uh but you do need real demand and it it's just it just got here. Now the tricky part is how do you manage this concentrated liquidity on unis swap 3 and four you have market makers essentially moving these ticks around right and uh that is a lossy process and even in curve pools like curve fx pools it is also a lossy process but pools themselves they measure losses and manage it and by the way uh the same kind of pools apparently underpin yield basis right so yield

cases is using that and well it's removing impermanent loss but to actually earn you do need concentrated liquidity and concentrated liquidity which is automatically managed and this is what we uh what we do and a lot of research is focusing on how to manage concentrated liquidity automatically in a way which is actually like maximizing the returns and uh we are I think we're doing fairly well here. >> Okay. So, it's all around the the market the the market ma makers. It's the it's the active management of liquidity, the concentrated liquidity where it's positioned and

>> and we are trying to do it without market makers, right? So, it's automatic market makers like you have smart contracts doing market making without market making firms. And actually for market making firms, it probably doesn't even make much of an economic sense when it's small to do market making for FX because let's say you have all these fintexs but like uh FX market making just like stable coin market making is not um well not necessarily lucrative because if even if you measure those fees over that small scale at which it is happening at the moment it's not necess necessarily interesting. That's

what actually centralized exchanges thought about uh exchanging stable coins to stable coins until curve appeared. When curve appeared, it appeared that actually exchanging stable coins to stable coins even USD to USD produces enough fees to feed the the demand uh of people to to earn something, right? And well, it grew up to what curve is. The same thing can happen with FX I think but it it's just not going to be that quickly growing or maybe it will but not not yet right so there is some uh there are some season effects here I think uh as well at the moment we can we have

sort of um slow natural growth of this area but it's actually happening finally and Maybe at some point it will become explosive growth. I don't know. But we need to work uh on these things now. >> Yeah. Well, uh stable coins are a foundational pillar for everything else that's happening on chain. Um and so we need this infrastructure. We need the these protocols to work. Uh, Michael, thanks so much uh for joining and and taking some time today as well as all of your hard work in the stable coin space and helping to uh helping to underpin our industry as a whole. Uh, always appreciate it, guys. Check out Curve and Yield Basis and uh, go give Michael a

follow on Twitter. He's he's always pulling up some good some good stuff there. Thanks again, Mike. >> Thank you. >> We'll see you next time. >> Bye. >> All right, guys. We're going to do a quick standby and we're going to get into our next segment. That was our stable coin segment presented by Fracks. Frack as well has been in the stable coin game for a long long time. And Michael from Curve helps us understand what the forex market could look like on chain. Um again, this is an industry that is so so small relative to the forex market globally. Um, if you believe in stable coins, which we do, then it makes sense that more Forex is going to come online.

It's going to slowly start to eat into the market share of Forex offchain. This is a $10 trillion industry every single day. So, there is significant fees to generate here. And uh, here on this show, we believe that the rerating of DeFi is happening right before our eyes. More assets are coming on chain. Stable coins are a big big asset class of that. As these assets move on chain, they end up flowing into these DeFi protocols. More assets in these protocols means more activity, which means more fees, which means more fees and value for you as token holders. So, that is happening right before our eyes. Guys, thanks so much for watching Fracks and our stable up segment today. That was episode 40

and we're going to keep things moving. Let's do a quick standby. Don't go anywhere. Be right back after this. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] >> We get

know we get we get deep. We get know we get deep. know [music] we get deep we get deep know we get deep know [music] we get deep we get deep >> already taha welcome to the show good to have you man >> hey thanks for having me doing well >> yes sir yes sir big hyperl bull here uh founder of paragon one of the hip3 deployers trading across different asset classes indices and more uh obviously we're big hyperlid Bulls in the show. Uh been in the ecosystem for quite a long time, early buyers 2024 and just been

excited about what's happening here. What's your hyperlid story, Taha? How did you get involved? Welcome to the show. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Um I've been around the crypto space for for some time now. Um you know, like a lot of folks, started in Tradfi, made my way to Salana. um ran a product studio for some time focusing on on validators and and Oracle Infra. Uh but yeah, you know, I I'm an early tinkerer on on most products. So found my way to Hyperlid um around 2024 or so. Uh I think what really attracted me to Hyperlid was um you know the builder experience as as someone who likes to to be on the front lines uh of uh product thinking in crypto. Um,

Hyperlink really just presented the best opportunity, the best foundation, um, the most SAS-like experience in terms of like the grab and grow grab-and-go infra that exists off the shelf on Hyperlid to to really build something like Paragon. Um, and yeah, I think like you know, amazing community, amazing product and founder, you know, le team. Um, that that's for me it was almost like a vendor management decision that brought me to Hyperlid. Yeah, man. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I think builder codes kind of changed the entire way that people think about uh you know, operating in finance and doing uh you know, being able to scale the liquidity layer. Like honestly, I think people are going to

start to think about hyperlquid probably already are as just this like underpinning of a lot of successful frontends. Like the hyperlid front end itself is obviously great. People use it. People trade on it a lot. But I think that there's going to be this kind of push away into maybe you know one day the uh the you know similar to what Robin Hood and Lighter have done maybe hypo powers the CE future or something big like that. >> Yeah. Or or replaces it all together. Right. >> Um I think that's yeah that's what excites me as well is this idea that um you know people talk about it all the time that uh the future kind of looks like hyperlquid rails without really knowing you're trading on Hyperlid. And um I I think that yeah, you know, we very much intend for Paragon to be a

part of of making that a reality. >> Yeah, most definitely. So talk talk to us about the Paragon story a bit. How did it come about? What is the kind of main focus for Paragon? And um kind of how do you think about the deployer space? >> Yeah. Um you know, I like to say we're building an S&P 2.0 on Hyperlid. So the idea is a ticker factory that mints buy buttons as soon as you know ideas for a trade emerge uh or new asset classes are formed. Um if I if I really think about how S&P or MCI function and tradi uh they serve this role of defining you know the the standard that the market operates on and I really think that uh

we want to position Paragon for serving that same role in the asset creation process um for a world where you've got news happening around the clock right market cap moving events happening over the weekend uh we have things like compute emerging where the unit economics are, you know, uh, kind of being figured out in real time. Um, and I think like a basically, yeah, a ticker factory, right? An engine that can have its finger on the pulse of, you know, what consensus is almost as as soon as attention is forming around it. Um, that's what we're we're aiming to build on on top of Hyperlid.

>> Yeah, man. So there's been some recent push back about the dominance of trade XYZ and preferential treatment towards trade XYZ as the dominant HIPP3 deployer when it comes to Paragon stance and just kind of thinking about what the traction has looked like. How do you how do you kind of think about the positioning of Paragon when it comes to trade XYZ? And um how do you think about this kind of um dominance that Trade XYZ has had in the deployer space as it pertains to kind of the credible neutrality of the hyperlquid ecosystem?

>> Yeah, I think uh there's there's kind of two questions in there, right? One is um you know, how do we compete against the behemoth trade? It definitely seems like a David versus Goliath story. Um, on that front, I'd say, you know, it's early. Um, you'll see a lot more coming from us in in short order with regards to the roster that we've assembled uh to to really compete um in the HIP 3 deployer space. Um, and I think like as far as level playing fields go for for turning the tide, you know, what better battleground than than crypto and blockchain native systems.

Um, so, you know, as we know, stories change really really fast here. Um, and you know, we're our our intention is for the conversation to quickly change from the Trade XYZ show to, hey, there's there's a new a new uh competitor in town. Um, with regards to like preferential treatment, we don't believe that any of that is occurring, right? Um, this is a permissionless network. uh you know it it's not clear like you could see if there were any sort of structural or mechanical advantage that that trade has and um you know it's not apparent to me that there's there's any sort of any sort of insider you know information or or ball going on. Um yeah I I really think that's just like

perception you know off of yeah somewhat misinformed takes and and just the rumor mill. Um, I think like incumbents aren't a reason uh to to avoid right markets. If anything, they're a sign that product market fit exists. Um, and and really, you know, what what it says to me is we have to step up the caliber of competition um in order to to compete in this deployer landscape. >> Yeah. And and what's your thoughts on the strategy there as far as like is it uh the quality of pairs? Is it the number of pairs? Is it more esoteric markets? Is it being quick? What do you think is kind of the defining factors that make a super quality HIP3 deployer?

What are those factors? And then how does Paragon think about excelling in some of these? >> Yeah, I think uh liquidity is a big piece of it, right? um giving traders the confidence to move with size on these markets and and that's something we've spent a lot of time on in in the last few weeks um you know shoring up that that that piece of the puzzle. Um, I think the other thing is curation, right? It's kind of what you mentioned there. And I think curation in terms of reactivity, right? You almost want to be so reactive that you you have this perception of being proactive. Um, and yeah, listing folks that or listing uh tickers that folks want, right? I think that if we look at the success of uh per exchanges and you know, centralized

exchanges in the past, right? Um, Hyperliquid did an excellent job on their curation strategy. Binance, you know, did an excellent job during the memecoin season on their curation strategy as well. So, um, I I really think, yeah, liquidity and and distribution are are or liquidity and curation are kind of the first pieces of the puzzle to to being a good HIP 3 deployer. >> And what are the most liquid markets that Paragon has currently as far as HIPP3 goes forward? like what are the most liquid markets that you guys uh currently have traded and what does that volume look like?

>> Yeah, so we we've currently traded about 135 million to date. Um again, this has all been done with, you know, a very quiet roll out and and little marketing. Um our first three indices were very much a proof of concept. We wanted to show that something could be done uh you know, net new on on HIP 3 other than listing uh a redundant, you know, Tesla and Nvidia per. Um so what we did is we made Bitcoin dominance total 2 and others which are commonly tracked crypto indices actionable on hyperlquid today. Um I think again along the lines of curation it's pretty clear that um you know even cryptonative traders are thinking a lot about things like the AI trades um you know uh asset classes

beyond >> y >> uh tokens. Um so yeah I'd say like going forward um you know our our our curation and asset listing strategy will will definitely uh be multi- you know crossasset uh and that was really always the plan >> and then so from the perspective of Paragon's business model is this thing just really get as much volume on these pairs as possible um and really just try to scale the amount of users trading these pairs um And on the on the kind of like the specific types of trades, I mean, you're looking at Bitcoin dominance, others market cap, etc. So, it's kind of these more like I don't

know. I think of these as like Trading View pairs almost like these are the pairs that I see on Trading View only, but no one trades the the uh you know, there's not like that many liquid ps markets for these types of more like I don't even know what they are. They're indices kind of, but they're almost like derivatives of uh indexes in the market. You know, talk to us about what the vision and and business model is for Paragon and and kind of how you plan to scale uh scale the business, scale the volume and what that translates into on the business side of things.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, so we we started with cryptonative indices. We're definitely keen on branching to, you know, other assets. Uh, I think Yeah. the the primary means of monetizing is the maker and taker fees generated from the volume on our pairs, right? So, um first and foremost, we want to to kind of prove that we can be a good hip-free deployer. And what that means is listing assets that folks are keen on trading, right? Um the moment that they be they they matter, the moment that they become relevant. Um I I think that question is somewhat a asset agnostic, right? Um a lot of the activity so far has been on the single name equity side. Um so that's really like our first uh uh plan

right when re-entering the market here is is uh making sure that we're like satisfying that need right which is hey uh this trade is becoming front of mind right now. Um how do we make it actionable for anyone who has access to Hyperlid right anywhere where Hyperliquid lives. Um >> yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's a there's going to be a explosion of pairs listed from different types of uh equities across the globe commodities. Obviously, you know, there's been these like multiple evolutions of hyperlquid.

I think really it caught a lot of mainstream attention off the Iran oil kind of uh shenanigans that were that was happening. And then now we've just seen like preipo uh Korean equities AI stocks being traded. It's kind of funny like no matter what the hot trade is of that, you know, month or quarter, Hyper has been able to just kind of manage that and be in front of it, right? And like always have that pair available through one of the deployers. And I I think there's like a really unique edge in that of like, you know, the amount of ass like like once the assets get listed, they're going to be listed until they're, you know, delisted for whatever reason from each deployer. But it's

almost like there's like this neverending catalyst for hyperlid that's like any event in the world, any geopolitical volatility, any new hot AI trade, any new IPO, like these are all like turning out to be catalysts for for Hyperlid, which is very interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. And there there will never really be a shortage, right? There will always Yeah. There's always going to be a next trade. Um and I I think you like you nailed exactly right like the uh the problem that exists in the traditional infrastructure stack that we think HIP 3 and you know Paragon as a whole directly solves it's this idea of how do I compress the asset creation process right um so that if you know a trade or

an or something like compute for instance becomes uh front of mind uh and consensus like how how can I express a direct view on that, right? Um, and again, S&P and Msei have been doing this for some time, right? They they take an idea, whether it's the market as a whole or uh quantum computing, and they boil it down into an index, right, with a with a very defined methodology. Uh, but what they have to do is partner with the state streets and the vanguards of the world to make that, right, into an ETF for the future. What's awesome is with HIP 3, you're all parts of that process, right, in one envelope. Um, so as as soon as it becomes relevant, you can define it and you can turn around and

make that instrument real on Hyperlquid, right, and actionable for traders today. And I think what we're really doing is you're arming traders and investors, right, with a totally basically a a real time toolkit, right, for markets. >> Yeah. And I mean, I think like the tokenization mega trend directly correlates to the per mega trend. And these are two things that we've been very vocal about and they they go very much hand in hand. While they're different in the sense that tokenizing assets is typically thought of in the spot sense. The perpetual version of tokenized assets is kind of on the far side of the spectrum in terms of the investor rights and ownership compared to like a tokenized spot equity on chain with really good onetoone direct back

ownership in a brokerage account that's KYC held by the issuer. But these two things are coming together and they're completely shifting the um they're completely shifting the way people are thinking about like what we're doing on chain. Like we were just trading pers of crypto assets. Now we're trading pers on everything. We were just doing DeFi, you know, yield farming and yield strategies with crypto assets. Now we're going to be doing it with vaults on any asset and with more complex strategy um per to hedge things to long things to trade 247.

This like this concoction of tokenized assets and per coming together is like drastically changing the scope of the TAM of Hyperlid and of the entire industry as a whole in a in this bare market. It's just hard to be bearish. It's just hard to be bearish when you start to think about the type of volume that Hyperlid's going to trade, the amount of OI that's going to be available. The amount of revenue that's not necessarily correlated to the crypto asset prices like like we've seen Hyperlid revenue stay somewhat steady even though HIP like the amount of Per's volume and Per's interest I think in trading coins is like far far less than what it would be in a peak bull. And so that I think like is the remaining bolt

thesis is like the expansion of tokenized asset trading on pers on hyperlquid and then just the revival of the crypto market. You know you could easily see daily volumes on Hyperlid right now 3 to 4xi to 5x um you know in peak conditions like I don't you know I think $50 billion OI is a really reasonable target in in the next bull run. And I think like you know I think we can get to like10 billion dollars a day in volume. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think um yeah it's interesting like the dichotomy that exists right between you know what's going on over in in hyperlquid land in the world of tokenized assets and and and kind of what you see on the on the timeline and >> um I guess uh the silver lining there is

it makes your job as a you know a retail investor or you know a fundamental liquid investor easy when um there are few qu uh projects objects of of such high quality, right? And and um such dispersion there. Um and I think like yeah, you know, if I'm seeing this in real time, it allows me to build conviction in and what Hyperlid is doing. >> Um I think yeah, I think what's really interesting on what you had noted there is uh we're also for the first time starting to experiment with like uh the status quo of of perp dynamics, right? um for a lot of the use cases that you're describing.

Um so you know for instance like things like funding rates um and uh and you know like the open interest caps moving uh you know kind of iterally over over time um these things can be like modified for use cases like preipo purpose right um and perhaps like other asset classes. So uh yeah it's it's really interesting to see like what the the the the unlocks will kind of be um you know as as this uh as the tokenization trend also like starts to proliferate. So for instance like the idea of doing a carry trade right on uh >> on on a stock um super super

interesting. I'm sure there's going to be like a whole slew of shops that that emerge running like strategies that are exactly that. Um so yeah extremely bullish. Um, you know, I I I don't really know where else I'd be spending my time uh as a builder in crypto other than other than Hyperlquid and and kind of this this uh front of where crypto meets the real world. >> Yeah, man. Yeah, totally agree from our perspective as well. So, T just kind of closing out here um what is the plans for Paragon in Q3, Q4? What do you guys have lined up for the rest of the year?

>> Yeah, we we've got some some big things coming. you know, you'll see some announcements from us in short order. Um, again, along this lines of, you know, creating a ticker factory that we think can keep up with the speed uh with which um you know, ideas and narratives are evolving in real time. Um, outside of that, we we plan to be big contributors to the open source uh um development that that is occurring on Hyperlid. So, yeah, you you'll see a lot from us on the HIP 3 front. Um, you know, as HIPP 4 becomes uh more and more of a story, uh, we'll we'll have our eyes on that as well. Um, yeah, >> love it.

>> Todd, thanks for joining us. Uh, congrats on the success. $135 million traded on Paragon 1 billion soon. Uh, look forward to the growth of Hyperlquid in the coming months. I think we're going to get a really nice summer move into uh, the next start of the bull market. So, we're just hanging on tight here and uh you know, staying patient. So, thanks for your time, man. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> Cheers. Bye. >> Cheers, man. [music] [music] [music]

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>> I'm upset. >> Yo, >> I like that, >> guys. What a show. I mean, we're just taking a little pullback here. Uh, everything's going to be all right. Vibes are still up. It's a beautiful Wednesday. New York City. David Shamish just went on Capitol Flow stream. Got grilled. >> Oh boy. What did he say? >> They're kind of recapping it right now. Let me show you. Let me show you this. Let me show you. Show you. Just play it from here. The end of the show. Here's the takeaways from Capital Flows stream with Purr CEO Shamus. As you guys know, we are shareholders of PUR, longers of hype. Here we go.

>> All right. Let it go. [laughter] But I think that there is a clear anchoring in the market I I believe around like these types of conversations where all of us realize okay like they're very well aware of everything. Um there's [laughter] >> there's not this >> Oh, we lost him.

>> Kind of clear awareness >> the marketplace and what they're doing. And I think that everyone has become I mean we're entering a new world a little bit, but like everyone has become so >> we're entering a new world where they squeezes Michael Sailor as the model for how every DAT should function, >> right? And I think that it's easy to go to a pendulum swift shift on the other side and be like, "Oh, I'm just going to be completely private and do all this other stuff." And I feel like leadership is like figuring out their lane a little bit, but um I also think that in terms of the I've never I've never had a problem with the warrants, by the way. I think a lot of people are like really concerned about those. I actually think him explaining some of the elements of

like shares transferring and some of the lockups um probably the most bullish thing that he said that people don't really get. Um so I think that's really significant. Um and I also think that we're going to my my belief is that we're going to trade through some of these warrant strikes and people are going to think like oh that's where all the selling pressure is and It could be very much like the hyperlquid unlock side where it's like, "Oh, as soon as we hit this unlock, it's all over."

>> Yeah, that's all that's all irrelevant to me. It's not about that. That's all >> That's Sounds like a lot of cope right now. I'm in the same boat. >> I just I don't even know what these warrant I don't know what it means. Warrant strikes sounds like unlocks. >> Yeah. at certain prices they get like call options on. So if it hits like in between 950 and 18 there's like certain like unlocks >> but we've already hit those we've already hit those strikes.

>> Yeah, exactly. >> So then those levels would have already been unlocked >> which is why I think that they're saying it doesn't really matter. I mean this thing is on make it's on do or die and like honestly [screaming] no. Yeah, I can't lie. The die looks pretty pretty likely. >> Um, I can't lie. The when you test the level once twice three four five six times.

Maybe the level doesn't exist. [laughter] >> Is the level in the room with us right now? >> Like market understands. Yeah, >> totally. Um, yeah. How about you? How about you? What were your kind of initial thoughts? >> Dude, James was snapping on them. >> I'm mixed on it, honestly. Uh, part of me thinks, and you know, I don't know if David's still watching, but part of me thinks that nothing's going to change on the story front. Like, I think he could understand what I mean. or you know I I'll be I'll just be interested to see if any changes take place on the the why are we a different data

>> everybody should know the the ticker they don't >> and >> I agree I mean they're up yeah they're up a billion >> he's clearly doing something right yeah Like what what else is there to do except play squash? Let the market absorb the the selling that is currently happening because of the war. Run through that. Just survive with a nice chunk of profit over the next few months and let the bull resume. What does he Why does he need to do anything else besides just hang on to the hype that he's got?

>> Well, because like why would you buy per, >> right? That's that's the question. Why would you buy it? >> Because Hyperl going up. >> I agree. And you think that they're going to do a good job managing their Hyperlquid position >> shows that they want to be part of the ecosystem. >> Yeah. >> Perr is an is a meme coin from the Hyperlquid ecosystem that like Jeff that shows, hey, we're going to be active in this ecosystem to me. We're PER. Like we get we get it. We're one of you. yet it feels as if they're not because they're unable to tell the story in the best way possible.

>> Sorry, I don't really understand what telling the story means. >> No, neither do I. I mean, they're they're I think they do a pretty good job of telling why Hyperlid's valuable. Yeah, >> I also I mean I understand what he's saying when it comes to like like being part of the ecosystem, not only like culturally because they have like a funny ticker, but also like David came on our show >> multiple times and talked about how he wanted to utilize the hyperlquid position in per to further the ecosystem. For instance, like if you want to buy a ticker or deploy like a HIP 3 instance, you need a critical mass. I think maybe is it 200,000 hype?

It's like a good amount of hyperlquid. Um, and >> yeah, >> Sheamus said that he was willing to rent out the hype that he has on his B on PER's balance sheet to people that want to buy these tickers. >> Yeah, I know. And he said that in the interview as well, but he said that they haven't really found anyone who they deem worthy of doing that yet. Somebody says NOCSM says they cannot sit on that billion. They have to take some off the table.

>> So sell their position. >> No, I think they just need to buy back the stock under.9 MNAV, which we're getting awfully close to. >> Are you going to get that? Are you going to >> when they have cash? >> Yeah. What are you going to use to buy it back? You going to use cash? going to sell some hype to to get the cash to buy it back. >> Look, they're at they're almost at that level >> and they only have 150 million of dry powder. >> Yeah, but the stock's small. >> So, what you think if they deploy like 50 mil into their own stock, they're like, >> bro, if Yeah.

>> What's the market cap of the stock? >> It's only like a billion something. 1.75 bill fully diluted. >> Yeah. One point Yeah. 1 billion. >> Yeah. >> I mean, yeah, 50 mil isn't nothing. >> Definitely not. >> So, they just take some of that dry powder, put it towards the stock, get the stock up a little bit. >> Yep. >> Yeah, makes sense. Um, looking up the market cap of Bitmine.

Down 52% in six months. >> Yeah. >> Down 87% over the last year. Yikes. Market cap of 8 billion. that puts these uh I mean you got to think like you could basically take the Hyperlid strategies market cap and add it to Hyperlid which would put another billion on Hyperlid's market cap. >> You could do the same thing with Bit Mine and ETH.

Like these things are these things are sizable. I don't know man. Market's in a tricky spot. Gotta get through this Iran war. Gotta improve the macro conditions a little bit. And I think overall, um, we're gonna be okay. I tend to think like it's just chop season. Just don't get chopped up and we're going to be all right. I agree. I agree. Going to be all right. Ladies and gentlemen, another amazing stream from the tokenization tower, guys. Wow. Hyperl strategies guys under fire. our friend of the show. We need a bounce.

>> I mean, we had the bounce, but are you saying we need a bounce and just continuously going up? That would be nice. >> We got the weekend bounce. >> The weekend bounce. >> We need another bounce. [laughter] >> Uh, we need it to bounce and then don't stop bouncing. [snorts] [laughter] >> Guys, W's in the chat. You know where to find us. again here tomorrow at 12:30 p.m. Eastern [music] Financial Capital World, the Tower. >> Turn that thing up.

>> We are robbing. >> Where is that coming from? [music] >> We need a bounce. [laughter] >> Then we need another bounce. >> We need a bounce. >> And then we need another bounce. And then we need a weekend bounce for our boy's birthday. And then we need another bounce. And then another bounce. >> We're gonna need a couple bounces. >> We can get that. We're going to be all right.

>> Guys, we'll see you tomorrow. Thanks for being a part of the show. You guys make it amazing. We love you guys. Uh we love the we love the chat. We love the messages in the chat. We love to respond to you guys, talk to you guys, walk you through the portfolio. Our coins had a little pullback today, but we're not going anywhere. Each day gets us one day closer to the beginning of the bounce that has a following bounce and a consistent bounce and then another bounce. We're getting closer to that. >> Stay bouncy. Stay bouncy. All right. >> Stay bouncy out there. Right foot up.

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