🚨LIVE: Revenue META Continues?! Strong Week Ahead?! New Portfolio Updates. WC, Anchorage & Re Join

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>> We'll see you around the timeline. Feels good to be back. >> [music] >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media [singing] brands in crypto, and Andy and Robbie are great experts [music] at everything they talk about, and it's my favorite podcast. >> Add me to my library as we speak. >> Potentially multi-chain deployments. [music] >> We are at Def Connect Day One here at the Consensus from Base. >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

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The entire thing was just institutions. It's just It's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> HE SAID IT. HE FINALLY said it. >> I'm so bullish. >> And he's bullish, I'm bullish, we're bullish. >> [music] [music] [music]

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If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. >> We're going. >> The Rollup is my favorite. >> From all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry, come together for the Rollup. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

>> Survive or die, mouth. Institutions aren't coming, they're simply here. It's the Rollup nation, crypto guys. Get right, let's go. >> [music] >> Welcome to the nest. See you on the show. >> [applause] >> Happy Monday. >> There we are. >> Wow. >> What a weekend. >> What an absolute >> How was your weekend, man? >> It was um, you know, it was a bit bit heavy at times, but other times was fantastic. Laughed a lot, had a great time.

And uh >> Yeah. >> overall, you know, trying to just trying to stay safe from the three L's out there, cuz they'll get you. >> Liquor lady Liquor ladies and leverage, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the tokenization tower. Live from the financial capital world, the nest. You're watching the roll up today is Monday, June 22nd. Hell of a weekend I spent in Boston at the casino, the Encore Boston Harbor. Got smoked in poker. Smoked. My buddy put me on the 5-10 table. Bottom with like 2K.

>> Oh boy. >> And just oh my god. >> Yeah. No, you don't belong at the 5-10 table. >> Bunch of regulars. They know that you're a shrimp and they're the shark. And I had a couple crazy ones. Like I hit for like 1,500, took this guy. Then like three hands later, shoved like 2K. He took it all back. It's just bad vibes all around for a little bit, but it was fun. >> on. Come on. We're going to teach you a thing or two about poker. >> Yeah. >> Uh we will one of these days cuz you can't get back to gambling on the World Cup or the or basketball. That just that's not good. That's leverage is somewhere in there as well. So >> Yeah.

>> I mean the market is uh is you know, maybe giving us some opportunities that we uh we could look at beyond poker and >> looks fine, guys. It looks it looks it looks good. Like I think it looks good. >> You think so? >> it looks better than what it has. I think we had a lot of fear over STRC. And we will see if that fear continues. So, that's my take. >> Yeah. I mean well look, we yesterday we were saying um about strategy and sailor that you know, kind of just continue running the playbook. Don't really need to do any drastic things like sell Bitcoin or uh but you know, you know, do anything like that. So,

uh we saw what sailor did. We'll get into that in just a minute. Going to have a great show for you guys today. >> Yes. >> Uh let's get into our topic. >> says yo, yo, yo. What's up, Newtype? Good to see you here. Happy Monday to all the locals of the show, happy Monday, guys. Good to have you back. Today's topics, Rob, the tower, the markets, the weather. We got WalletConnect CEO calling in. Um Jess Halgrave. We got Anchorage and BCG team. It'll be a good institutional focused episode. This week is Tokenize This in New York, guys, so we'll have a couple like institutional-esque kind of clients here in the studio. Uh so, that'll be fun. And then we have RE protocol, their CEO

uh calling in. They had a token launch, guys. I believe it was Friday. >> It's ripping. It's It pumped from 42 cents, topped at a dollar, is at 83 now, and bouncing. Um >> Great to see healthy token launches these days. I mean, honestly, remember we were talking, you know, about token launches, we heard some teams were kind of waiting, delaying because of the market conditions. It feels like now's the time. If you're thinking and considering about launching a token, and you have the benefit of hindsight, where you can take into account how much the market values revenue at the moment, and you have some solid fundamentals, now feels like the perfect time to launch a token because we are sort of in this bottoming out apathetic have a

pretty good run in the next >> in the next bit. You know, you didn't want to be like If you look at all the tokens that were launched in that end of '24 into '25 era, I feel like a lot of the founders probably did really well on them, but I mean I mean they they definitely just like also kind of struggled performance-wise. But, we're going to talk about it. The revenue minute continues, guys. In fact, more than I've ever seen it, Rob, on Twitter as of late. I'm seeing a lot a lot of revenue screenshots being posted around. We were about 18 months too early there, guys, but that's what you get when you're watching this show. You're going to be early on everything. Today's topics are powered by Treasure. Use code roll up 10 at treasure.io to get yourself a hardware wallet. Let's keep

it rolling, guys, into the markets and weather. Before we do, let me tell you about Frax, our premier stablecoin partner, building infrastructure for future [cheering and screaming] digital money, open, stable, and borderless. The boy's going to the World Cup game tonight, Norway vs. Senegal. I'm ready to smash. >> push back. I don't think we were too early on the revenue meta. I actually think that revenue is going to be here to stay. I think it was always here. I think if you looked at hyper liquid back in 2024, that was sort of the start of the revenue meta that has continued. So, I mean, 18 months ago, revenue was still definitely a thing. It was just less teams had it. So, it was fewer and farther between.

>> They had less fixated focus on it is what I mean. Like, there's a fixation on it right now. >> Certainly is. And I think we're going to go through these ebbs and flows where people fixate on it and they have pay more attention to revenue rather than narrative and hype. But, I think revenue's always something that you can fall back on. It's always fundamental to a company's success. I think what you're saying is that we're going to have this increased focus on it going forward. But, back then was sort of the seed that was planted and it was ultimately grew into the narrative that it is now. So, I think we're just going to continue to see more and more of a focus on it, but it's going to ebb and flow. We're going to go through cycles where it matters more or less.

>> But, that was certainly the beginning of it and it is certainly still relevant today. >> I agree. And I mean, I made some portfolio moves over the weekend, guys. I want to tell you guys about those in just a second. Uh let's get into It's 71 degrees. It's beautiful. Uh nice day in in New York World Cup tonight. I'm going to the game. Shout out to Predict Street, freaking homies for hooking the boy up, lower level tickets, midfield. Going to be a vibe. Um so, shout out to Relay, easy way to swap tokens across multiple chains from one interface. Use relay.link. Under the hood, better UX for you, your users, and everyone else. Let's get into the markets, Rob. Before we do, let me let me tell you about Denari, our tokenized equities partner, crushing it on hyper liquid with the SpaceX [screaming] trading. Trade SpaceX on Hyperliquid

with Denari, the tokenized spot equity market for you. And yeah, guys, I mean, look at this. Bitcoin 64, Ethereum 1,700, SOL 72. A lot of coordinated SOL conversation over the weekend. A lot of Ansem and Solana folks coming out and pushing the SOL chart. I think that the SOL chart has a lot of work to do still. Um and we will see, you know, what happens there. But I'm I'm glad to see I'm glad to see Backpack, Wormhole, Sunrise getting together kind of like uh dominating the SpaceX on-chain trading environment. Um they're crushing it volume-wise. And then that leading to

like Solana's original Nasdaq on-chain Nasdaq vision. I think it it has legs. I think Solana could be a very, very dominant place for uh tokenized equity trading. And I think it's going to be Solana's iteration of it versus Aerodrome's iteration of it on Base. And I think that's kind of like that's kind of I kind of gets me into my like updated portfolio, guys. So, over the weekend, Robbie had the graciousness to pay me out from the company. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. That's been a little while. It's been a you know, we've been we've been you know, hunkering down here at The Roll.

And uh you know, Robbie Robbie gave me a nice little uh payday there on Friday. And I was looking around at the markets and I was like, man, what's happening? And I just had that conversation with Alice Cutler from Aerodrome. And I I looked at the Aerodrome chart. I understand they have this launch in about 3 weeks. >> Yeah. >> And the amount of tokenized equity growth that Coinbase is pushing with their new platform, all of this is going to support Aerodrome, the SpaceX growth. Then you look at the tokenomics and you realize what he's what Alex was telling me. Which is what uh the same reason my hyperliquid thesis exists.

They make a ton of money. They pass it all back to the token holders, 100% of it. There's no unlocks. There's no VCs. Uh there's a very clear path to scaling this thing to being the dominant spot trading platform with clear fee value accrual back to the token holder. And SpaceX kind of was the cherry on top for me where I was like, "Wow, okay. So, if that happened on Solana and on hyperliquid, then it's going to happen on Base, on Ethereum, and wherever else Aerodrome is." And they it's a really nice looking chart. Really nice fundamentals and a really good kind of like narrative urgency. The like there's some urgency to this trade because uh they have this big launch coming up.

And so, yeah, Rob paid me out and I allocated it nearly in full into Aerodrome and Aero token at about 54 cents is my average cost. And this is definitely I definitely expect it to move hard next month into next month. And then, I think it's probably still like a generational long-term entry if you guys think this bear market's going to end uh August September October. And we get to higher prices on Bitcoin by the end of the year and the next year's fund. That's kind of my thesis.

That's That's like my macro view. And so, buying Aero here felt like a easy layup for July's movement. And probably a really good long-term entry. >> Well, it looks incredibly strong. >> I did. >> It looks incredibly strong. Um based on fundamentals and the chart as you mentioned. The September, October sort of like bear market coming to an end, I don't know because that is when we have this supply overhang from these mega IPOs. And so, there's some controversial sort of, you know, whether or not we're going to come out of the winter by then.

But, I do think with uh the mainnet launch of Aerodrome coming up in July, they're going to start to That is when this war between Uniswap and Aerodrome is really going to heat up. And you see Alex continuously taking shots at Uniswap. >> Oh my gosh, this weekend was ridiculous. >> Pretty funny, honestly, but it is also just a good old-fashioned competitive nature of it. Uh and I loved absolutely love to see it. Uh but it it's sort of up in the air as far as where that who you know, where that data is, what is true, what is not, depends on how you measure. And I think once we have this mainnet launch, I think it's kind of indisputable that Aerodrome is leading on Base, but the uh the opportunity is mainnet exchange

market share. That is what we're going to see, and the upcoming opportunity is going to be RWAs. And so we saw Coinbase's announcement. We know that there's a strong alignment between Coinbase and and and Aerodrome. And and I want to read this AI xbt tweet because it helps to put that alignment into perspective. AI xbt says Coinbase Ventures just did its largest ever on-chain token purchase, buying Aero on the open market. And this is related to something that you just said, which is that there's no VCs in Aerodrome. >> Yep. >> But it's more nuanced than that. There is VCs in Aerodrome. They just bought on the open market. They didn't get entry in the private market like they did in every other low, you know, low float high FDV thing. Um so Ventures bought on the open market. They're still

incentivized to put some firepower behind this. Uh they bought on the open market just like every other participant. Then they locked all of it as VE Aero, and I think this is important because this is how there is revenue coming into the token. Uh $20 plus at 3.9x annual revenue. Uniswap trades at 61.9x. Um and that is just classic price to earnings multiples. Uh, that is how you fundamentally value these things that have some revenue. >> Aerodrome I think it's so I think it's this easy, Rob. Aerodrome I think it's this easy right now.

>> Aerodrome does $134 million per year in fees, distributes 100% of its, uh, fees to lockers, controls 47% of the base TVL, Aerodrome merger with Velodrome goes live July 2nd, deploying to Ethereum mainnet. Coinbase is buying governance control over its own L2s, liquidity monopoly without paying a control premium. Think about why they are still buying more. >> Yeah. How would you guys allocate to Lighter Bits versus Aerodrome at today's prices? Tough. Um, I like both. >> Yeah.

>> Um, >> I mean, it's fundamentally two different value propositions. You have a spot decentralized exchange DEX AMM market, and then you have a perpetuals market. If you look at just the global financial world, you look at how much volume currently exists on spot markets, guess what? It's a lot. And then you look at how much global volume occurs on derivatives markets, guess what? It's a lot. So, there's a there's an opportunity here for both. >> I agree. I mean, derivative is obviously just going to make more money on chain right now.

Um, and that's probably going to be like that way for a while, but I just because you can just get larger trades. >> I mean, if you Yeah. >> They get smaller fees per trade, but much larger volume. So, I mean, it's So, look, man, I'm in the camp of owning both. I think it's this easy, Edward. I think it's Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm just being silly here, but I think it's really as easy as like we just allocate to the things that are making money and returning that money back to their token holders as the prices are depressed across the entire market, and then these things are going to run way harder than anything else is in the market once it turns around. So, that's powered by Zalma. Our markets, our takes, S&P kind of flat,

oil up a little bit, rates up a little bit. Shout out to Zama powering their private confidential transactions on chain. Let's get into the topics, the news. First, let me tell you about NEAR, our your home for building, discovering, and using apps on chain. One account, no borders, your financial life all on chain. near.com is an amazing product. I'm glad to have them as a sponsor of the show. Andy Constantin, and a macro OG, a large-scale global investor, values hype based on global crypto and TradFi trading volume growth, and hyperliquid share of each market. In this post, he kind of gives his current view of hyperliquid, explaining the volume growth and market share gains could push hype towards 400 in the biggest bull

case. Um and saturation, token supply, other kind of factors may limit that. Uh at $75, Constantin or Constantin sees a floor of $30 per hype. And prefers an entry closer to 35 to 40, with no current position, and his bull case is $400. And he doesn't think that the growth within crypto is really going to Like, he doesn't think that his volume share Like, the HyperGoat's volume share of crypto trading is going to grow that much.

He doesn't think that the volume share of trading TradFi assets is all that exciting. And he thinks that he basically thinks that Like, his take is that there's not that much growth left on the crypto side, and that the um biggest opportunity here is the share of TradFi uh trading. And I mean, I think this is the thesis, guys. I think the thesis is the same thing for Aerodrome and Uniswap. It's the same thing for hype and Lido.

It's Can these things meaningfully meaningfully get a large share of TradFi tokenized asset trading volumes. So, >> Well, it's it's bigger than that, right? And he walked through a very thoughtful thesis here, and I think uh he does a great job, and it's funny because his you could read this one of two ways. You could see that, you know, $400 price target and think it's extremely bullish, and then you could also read some more of the the fundamental thesis as far as how he arrived there and think this is actually not that exciting of an opportunity for Hyperliquid. And so, he he walked through a a valuation heuristic here that's made up

of of global trading volumes. That's derivatives, that's spot, [clears throat] that's crypto, that's equities, that's commodities, that's everything. Everything global capital flows. He mostly he divides that into crypto volume and TradFi volume. And then the share of volume uh he says is uh it is what matters here. And basically, he he tries to extrapolate how much uh how much market share Hyperliquid can generate in crypto trading volume and TradFi trading volume. Uh and he says that because of growth in both TradFi and crypto, there is upside. Uh but at $400, the further upside seems somewhat limited uh because

that would be about 100x of current revenues. Uh yet the price increase would result in basically flat net coins outstanding or deflationary inflationary equilibrium. So, there wouldn't really be much uh change in the tokenomics at that point. But, he does say that the the growth expectations of crypto volume are radically too high, and the growth expectations of uh trading volume is boring. We're we're pretty much already there at the growth. Um he says that the the share of crypto market share when it comes to crypto trading volumes. It's already pretty damn big.

Uh this is where he started to get a lot of pushback because it's only 15% of Binance right now. It's not even 15% of crypto trading volume globally. It's going to take a lot to get there and there's still a lot of flows there. You could also think that, you know, the share that that crypto trading volume in general is going to grow, but he says it's radically too high. >> We're also just like deep in a bear and it's like of course crypto volumes are low. Like no one trading perps. >> Yeah, well. >> Talk to me about Bitcoin at 100. >> to get aggressive there, Andy, but you know, he's still calling for $400. He also says that the share of trading volume for TradFi is pretty much non-existent, which does present a a large opportunity to grow into some sort of meaningful

uh trading volume share. Uh the thing is that right now the trading volume the share of trading volume for TradFi is like this very degenerate bucket shop only off hours, you know, that is the only sort of volume that they're getting. He sees very high barriers and competitive and regulatory headwinds for a share of trading volume for TradFi assets during regular hours and willingness from existing TradFi vested interest, basically vendor lock-in from existing TradFi venture venues.

And so he really doesn't see the mean any kind of meaningful TradFi market share. Um and he says right now hype in the 70s is a call option if none of the if Hyperliquid doesn't materialize into any meaningful share of TradFi volumes, then there still is an argument to be made uh with crypto market share the the the great crypto market share that Hyperliquid has at a $30 price point. This is where he wanted to buy perp and he missed it. Um and so you're basically saying, "Okay, this is a call option on whether Hyperliquid is going to get any meaningful trading volume of TradFi assets in regular normal hours, right?

Not this, you know, off hours, 5 to 9, you know, kind of offshore market, but can they compete with NASDAQ? Can they compete with New York Stock Exchange? Can they compete with with the CME? And that is that is the bet that you're willing to take. If you think they can do that, you're buying Hyperliquid in the 70s. If not, you're you're uh content with the amount of trading volume that they have in crypto and you buy Hyperliquid in the 30s. >> Yeah, good luck good luck on that point, Andy. Inshallah, let's keep it rolling.

I'm bullish, send it to 400, please. Um our friend here from the MEV trenches, uh RIP to Jared from Subway. Jared from Subway. >> from Jared from Subway. I mean, this guy >> Broil the frog. >> Yeah, that was the attack. I think it's just important to remind people Jared from Subway, the name given to this MEV bot is because this is a sandwich bot, and >> Yeah.

>> obviously Subway sells Subway sandwiches. Jared was their spokesperson, and he has been sandwiching people. >> Jared was like the fat guy that like got skinny because he ate Subway, right? >> That's right, and I think he was also a pedophile unfortunately. >> Oh, Jesus. Yeah. Wow. All right, so MEV bot Jared from Subway gets exploited by a boil the frog attack. The this attacker deployed fake wrapper tokens and profitable looking pools to trick the bot into granting escalating ERC-20 approvals on real tokens.

Uh the bot interacted, took some small profits, then approved large spends. Attacker batch contract drained about $20 million. No There was no exploit here in code. Uh the attacker just exploited the ability for the bot's own approvals and MEV chasing behavior. Uh people on CT were actually like I mean, I wasn't stoked to see that people were like happy that this guy lost money, but all of us have been sandwiched by Jared from Subway at some point. Everyone on chain, so >> part of part of why people were happy about this is because and you see even Jared he made a message on chain to the attacker and he offered a 50% reward in order in in exchange for not pursuing legal

action against the hacker, but effectively the first sentence is the entire mantra and he said well played. And that tells you everything you need to know. >> [laughter] >> Because according to what Jared was doing and why he was able to do it even though people weren't happy about it because code is law. In this on chain game he just played the game better and he decided to play the game in the character of an MEV bot. And so he basically just got beat at his own game. That's why people are somewhat happy about this. It means that look this is just the way that the game is played.

You know, Jared said he was going to pursue some sort of legal like action against this guy. >> Yeah, your camera's blinking pretty bad, but I think >> Oops. >> that is uh I I think that's going to be pretty difficult. I think it's going to be pretty difficult for Jared to go and pursue some sort of legal action against this guy because look he's been doing this against other people for a long, long time. And so I think it's going to be um I I doubt this guy's going to return any funds. I really I really do. >> Jared's Jared's in Dubai. Like I don't know who what court they're settling this in. Uh but >> totally according to the rules and laws of on chain game play and unfortunately for Jared he got beat. And I think

that's all there is to it. >> says, "How can we differentiate the trading volume on Binance as all claim that 90% of Binance's trading volume is mainly stable coins?" Which would make sense just like swapping between stable coins. >> wouldn't be perps. That wouldn't affect how liquid the market share was when it came to trading volume. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah. So that is what happened here with Jared. That's why people are happy. It's a very sophisticated attack, but Jared's been running sophisticated games on chain for a long, long time. And so, people were happy about this. Um let's move on to our next tweet. This is Yes. Uh LiFi is helping us with our tweets.

Uh LiFi is the on-chain aggregator for digital market access. They are providing liquidity all across the board on chain. Guys, LiFi's helping take you where you need to go on chain. They are serving the liquidity. And I think this is going to continue to be uh relevant both uh the traditional Again, everyone is kind of looking at the same thing when you're thinking about, you know, this hyperliquid valuation heuristic, you're thinking about metrics. Like it is how much percentage of crypto-native token exchange volume can you get? And how much can you get in traditional financial market share trading volume? These are the two things. They're converging to the same place, and that same place is the infrastructure is serving both of

those markets now because we have um we have crypto-native trading volume. It's been the same thing for a long, long time. The the infrastructure has served this market for a long, long time. And we now have uh traditional financial assets being tokenized, which means once you have those tokens on chain, the same on-chain infrastructure is going to serve trading volume of that those traditional financial access. >> Yeah. >> So, the same infrastructure is serving both of these asset classes. How much uh trading volume market share can you generate for those two asset classes?

That's what's everyone's looking at. Once you gain some market share in those two asset classes, then it comes your monetization strategy, right? And and that is where we are here. So, >> Well, this is what I mean though, Rob. Like in in the beginning I was I was saying that like there's like this like over-fixation on this. Like this screenshot is like the epitome of the revenue meta being being here. >> And I don't think it's an over fixation. I think we have increased our attention and focus on revenue, but look, I'm a fundamentals guy. Maybe that's not like the case for everyone, but this is how companies are valued and how they've been valued for the last 100 years.

Typically, you don't have a meme coin GME, Robinhood style run-up short squeeze, gamma squeeze, and that is how you're trying to evaluate evaluate these companies. Typically, it's like, how much money are you making? And and you know, how how much how long and how durable is that money that you're making. That is how we value these companies, and I think finally, it was more it was more unrealistic before. I think now we're actually getting into a more realistic point of view, and it's more likely that we stay with this revenue fixation or attention or focus. It's more likely than not, right? And so I think what we're looking at here is look, cuz there was there was another chart that was circulating around, and it had Circle, and it had Tether, and it

had Grayscale, and it had these companies that were making a lot of money, but they didn't have a token where you could take part in the revenue share of these companies. Now, we have this chart, right? And I think it would have been helpful to compare these two, but we've got this one up now, and this Nest intern is making the point where revenue is worthless if it doesn't accrue value to the token. He's referencing this other chart of companies that were making a ton of revenue, but they were private companies. You couldn't buy a stock, you couldn't buy a token that would give you share in these in these revenues. But here, what we have is we have revenue and we have valuations. And I think the best the best example of this is when you look at Aerodrome and Uniswap. They are

literally neck and neck with how much money they're bringing in on a 30-day rolling average, and their valuations could not be more different. I mean, what is that, a 3x difference? And you would you would stand to think, right? And I think this is true based on the multiples that we that we covered earlier where >> Same candle >> the price to earnings is extremely different when you're looking at Aerodrome and Uniswap and you're thinking what about I what would I rather buy these companies are making the same amount of money but one is X why would something be 3X more valuable if they're bringing in the same amount of money and then you look at the growth opportunities. That would be the reason.

If you have more growth opportunities in the same that's more valuable. That's why SpaceX and Palantir and Anthropic are trading at a gazillion price to earnings multiple >> Exactly. >> the expectation is that they're going to grow even more versus something that has relatively low growth opportunity but relatively durable revenue would trade at a a less multiple. Here you have something that's going to be launching on mainnet. You you you have an expectation that they're actually going to grow their opportunity and you have the RWA complex. So I think the growth opportunity for Aerodrome is actually greater than Uniswap and it's trading at a less multiple. That's what I get in because it seems like the market is diverging from reality.

>> I agree on that front. EdgeX is also a crazy valuation mismatch with at a 140 million doing 7.5 million dollars of revenue last 30 days. Um you know, you see the I also heard some weird stuff about Zinc. I don't know something about like the Zinc team within Meta DAO was doing some weird kind of like allocation things or did some scammy stuff. So I'm just kind of staying away from Zinc from for now until something clears up. New type says Jupiter is king as well. Yeah, it's looking good. Lighter's up there again and so guys I honestly like honestly, I think it might be as simple as this. Like it really might just be looking at this and picking your picks and allocating and so

>> this is a nice little cheat sheet. Like this is really good. This is the kind of stuff that like a financial analysis that an ETF shop is going to do. They're going to look at the revenue, they're going to look at the valuation, and they're going to say which one of these companies or or how many of these What companies are undervalued relative to their the money that they're bringing in. That's how you get >> Chainlink would have made more. I'm actually pretty stoked to see Chainlink on this list at number four, personally. New type. I mean, I'm I I didn't know. Uh Yeah, I didn't know. I I I didn't know that that they had that much holders revenue on a 30-day basis.

>> The other thing Elliot says, "Yo, what's up, Elliot?" The thing to mention about this chart, there's one that is not on this chart that you might expect to be here, which is Etherfi. Like, we know that Etherfi is bringing in six a significant amount of revenue to the tune of $5 million over 30 days. >> But and they have a token and their valuation is not extraordinarily high. But notice that this is holders revenue over the last 30 days. >> what does that even mean? >> Well, it means how much of the revenue that the company's bringing in is going to the token in the form of buybacks or burns or dividends or anything like this or staking revenue.

>> Then it's just Okay, I see. So, there's revenue and then there's like how much revenue the holders end up getting to >> And what's nice >> I mean, Hyperliquid is it's easy to make the case cuz you're buying the token and you're injecting it into the chart. I would love a company and we might get companies like this after the Clarity Act. I would love a company that would distribute dividends in stablecoins to their holders. Like, Aerodrome, I think it's the closest to this because you can get VE Arrow and you can get yield and I think you can get that in different sorts of tokens depending on how you stake. I'm not entirely sure.

>> a stablecoin revenue just from holding the token. >> dividend. Just a pure dividend. I hold the token and every month or every block even, I get distributed a certain amount of stablecoins. And I think that's where we're headed. I mean, that's literally the way dividend stocks work in trad fi. >> Yeah. >> we have the opportunity to do that on a per block basis, which would be incredible. And then it would be extremely easy to measure holders revenue because you literally are just getting streamed cash rewards just for holding this thing.

>> Yeah. All right, guys. Couple of other things before we get to our first guest. Keir Starmer resigns as UK Prime Minister. Kind of wild. Uh strategy buys 520 Bitcoin in the last week, adds another 300 million dollars to their USD reserve. Think that the stretch fears are were at pretty much maximized maximal stretch fears last week. Index Ventures Junior Square back trading at FOMO at 550 million dollar valuation. I think they raised 75 million dollars. Huge raise for them. SpaceX signs a computing power deal with an open-source AI startup. This is the uh fightback from the US in the open-source open-source AI um market. So, guys, we've got Jess Hallgrave from Wall Connect, the CEO of

Wall Connect, uh joining us for StableDap. We're going to be right back. Super quick break. We're going to get Jess up. Keep it rolling. We got three guests. Then we're going to go over some more markets charts with you guys at the end of the show. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> Welcome back to another episode of Stable Up, our premier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital

dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. The show is made possible by Frax, and Frax is powering the financial engine of the internet, powering FRX USD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stable coin supercycle made possible by Frax. Now, enjoy Stable Up, our weekly coin show. All righty, guys. Welcome back to episode number 38 of Stable Up, our premier weekly stable coin show powered by our friends at Frax. Visit frax.com, learn more about what they're doing with their FRX USD stable coin. We've got Jess Hogue Grave, the CEO of Wallet Connect, a leading financial connectivity layer for for crypto, for tradfi, for tokenized assets powering seamless crypto stable coin payments.

We're talking merchant stable coins. We're talking actual e-commerce adoption of stable coins today. Jess, welcome to the show. >> Hey, thank you so much for having me. >> It's good to have you back. Um with quite a bit of progress. We're getting very close on clarity. Genius almost implemented. Uh stable coins are fully in the supercycle, Jess. It's been about 6 months since we chatted last, and I think you guys had uh a big announcement then. Maybe just catch us up over the last 6 months of what you've seen on the stable coin front holistically, whether it be payments, whether it be raises, whether it be adoption, and then specifically kind of like what you guys have pioneered over the last 6 months with Well Connect. And welcome back.

>> I mean, what a 6 months it has been for this space. It's kind of crazy, actually, like looking back. Um I think if I had to summarize it in a like really succinct way, this has been the 6 months that I think we're closer than ever of the traditional financial world and the kind of like crypto stablecoin world really like becoming one. Um the for me personally, every time I speak to a more traditional financial institution, the level of maturity, the way that they think about this, the sophistication of their understanding of the space has grown so much even over that short period of time. And it's been

really incredible to see, um you know, people actually implementing things in their core products, not just as a press release for kind of like a nice show and tell thing, but actually thinking about how this is affecting their core businesses. I mean, we've seen these huge acquisitions. Mastercard, what a giant, getting involved in in this space with the BB&K acquisition. We've seen a whole host of other things. Massive raises. I mean, stablecoin card, that company valuations have obviously gone through the roof. Um so, you know, all things to me are pointing to to, you know, a great second half of the year, certainly. And like really meaningful adoption. I do think that the um Clarity

Act is a, you know, everybody is on tenterhooks for the next few days, um waiting to see what's going to happen there, cuz I think if that doesn't go through, that is going to put a little bit of, you know, restraint on on the space, maybe a little bit. Um but overall, yeah, what a what a crazy 6 months. >> Yeah, incredible. And and you guys have been absolutely crushing it. Um I saw $6 billion of stablecoin volume in the last week I think has flowed through WalletConnect. Uh and you put out a nice a nice report uh about stablecoin and payments.

Um would love just kind of like, you know, given that you're in the trenches, you guys have, you know, a business here that is doing some significant numbers. What are some of the most exciting metrics that you're seeing on the adoption front? You know, we've seen sort of the amount of stablecoins I think kind of stay relatively steady and for what people are calling a bear market, if you want to call it that depending on where you are, you know, it it is okay to see those numbers stay steady, but the the payment, the volume, the amount of times that we're turning over the amount of stablecoins has increased significantly. Maybe you could just, you know, tell us what you think that might be attributed to and some of the most exciting metrics that you're seeing on the ground.

>> So, I think definitely we're seeing um you know, growing numbers of use cases of stablecoins. And by that I mean um there's less kind of just like buy, hold, sell activity than we've seen before. Although DeFi and kind of trading activity still main makes up the biggest volume for the WalletConnect network. But we're seeing really rapid increase on things like payments. And this is a real indicator. Again, it's it's growing from a very small base. Payments is by certainly no means uh the biggest percentage of what we do today, but that growth is really indicative to me that stablecoins are moving out from assets which people are just using to

maybe move in and out of more volatile assets or um to send funds um from one place to another. But when you start to see consumer use cases, e-commerce, um more money remittance, B2B [clears throat] payments, you start to see that this is actually something that's going to I you know, be a be a very fundamental instrument for for the future. The other thing I would say on stable coins that I have found really interesting in the last few months is the growth again from a small base of non-US dollar denominated stable coins. Here in Europe, we've seen the growth of a many euro denominated stable coins.

Mika and the legislation that we've got here has been a kind of key driving factor for that. We also had news the other day of course that USDT is now kind of no no longer Mika compliant as of July 1st and that I think is going to change the mix of assets that people are using suddenly in Europe. And also in these last six months we've seen Standard Chartered's Hong Kong dollar. You know, we've seen yen stable coins starting to come around.

One partner of ours has started issuing Swedish krona, Swiss franc. So I I think that this year is also going to be the year of the non-US dollar denominated stable coin as well. >> Mhm. You know, I saw that news as well from the EU, right? I think Binance had its license taken away or is in the process of losing their license. And then the central bank of Europe seems to be fighting stable coins as a result of their desire to potentially launch like a CBDC or some form of a digital dollar, a digital euro within Europe that's more

centrally planned than the traditional stable coin that you would know. You know, I'm just curious like not to go off on a tangent too far here, but in that in that world it is is is this just is this just going to look like what would be like a a CBDC from the EU that you know, proliferates and dominates in Europe and that they would just think to not allow any external stablecoin usage in that given area or like just like generally from the business perspective I know that you're you're also you know, thinking about how to integrate more deeply in Europe but do it in a compliant fashion.

Like what what was your first reaction from like the you know, crypto first kind of crypto native perspective but then also on the business perspective as to like what precedent this sets and kind of how you think about this this move from the EU? >> You know, the the the digital euro has been on the cards for many years now. People have been talking about it and I think those plans are are certainly very interesting when you look at an area the size of the euro of Europe and and assets the size of the euro denominated economy having a CBDC.

I think it's super super super interesting. However, Europe has always also been very very pro competition and I don't think that just because we're going to have a a euro denominated CBDC that that's going to crowd out private market alternatives. I think in fact what we've seen is many regulators in Europe be particularly kind of pro euro denominated stablecoins. There is the Kivalis consortium which started with 12 large European banks. I think it's now up to 30 European banks who are issuing a euro denominated stablecoin as part of that consortium. So, I don't think that it's it's going to kind of crowd out the

alternatives but I do think it's really interesting when you look at some of the retail use cases or even kind of like B2B use cases moving euros around around the the world and having the European Central Bank as the counterpart for that stable coin is a really really interesting offering. And I think that's something that's often overlooked when we talk about stable coins is there is ultimately counterparty risk to these assets, albeit very small. And so as businesses and as consumers are thinking about the stable assets that they want to hold, having an asset backed by the European state European Central Bank or having an asset backed

by a consortium of 30 large European banks is very different than having a stable coin backed by a small organization. So I think we're going to see a lot of very interesting evolution over the next kind of 3 to 5 years in Europe as as those two alternatives mature as well. >> Yeah, I must say that I I enjoy this from a perspective of financial experimentation, right? You know, like Europe and the US are taking fundamentally different approaches, especially if the CBDC does end up becoming, you know, put into circulation. And just from a point of, you know, there there was a lot of research done on whether CBDCs were a good thing, quote-unquote. And I think ultimately there's different

design choices that could make sense. Fundamentally, for a few different reasons, I I think, you know, the the non-CBDC route, taking the route of more privatized, you know, alternative is is the right approach, but I'm I can maybe see some some different use cases that would call for some different design choices. And so I'd love to see both of these, you know, put into practice so that we can see this play out in the real market. I'm curious from, you know, the perspective of an infrastructure provider and an operator, given that you may have competing solutions for the money, like the actual instrument, and your job as an operator is to support both, whether that is a CBDC or maybe a genius compliant stablecoin, or

an algorithmic stablecoin, or all these different types of solutions. How do you stay somewhat credibly neutral, you know, in in a position where it is there anything that you need to do as an operator to prepare for supporting the different types of solutions when it comes to stablecoins? How do you prepare so that you can be, you know, maximum maximally flexible to the different alternatives that are out there in the stablecoin market? >> So, it's a great question. At the WalletConnect Network level, we basically support all assets on all chains out of the box. Sometimes, if a new chain with uh you know, completely new uh programming language or something

comes up, we sometimes need to do a little bit of work to make that easy for the developers, but the core protocol is is chain and asset agnostic, and that's really important for us. We are just the pipes. We're not here to uh kind of recommend or or even signal which uh which chains people may or may not want to to transact on. Some of our products are a little bit more opinionated. So, take the WalletConnect Pay product, which is that acceptance product that I was here talking about uh last time. So, this is a product that we have for payments companies to be able to accept cryptocurrencies and stablecoins, and that is a little bit more opinionated.

So, we uh basically curate the set of assets that can be accepted. Our goal really though is to have a very broad range of assets and chains supported by WalletConnect Pay. Um I think we're up to uh more than 100 today. Um and so, even within that, where we have to be a bit more specific just because of the way that tokens move and and all of the compliance pieces that we build around it, even within that, we basically provide this as a modular offering. So, as a payments company, you can say "I'm based in Europe. I want to only accept MECA compliant stable coins." Or you can say, "I'm going to accept anything." Or you can say, "Hey, I only want to accept USDX

on chain Y." Um so, we again, even for our customers and even in these more opinionated products, we provide modular solutions so that um it's up to the underlying payments company what assets they want to be able to to accept and work with. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. I mean, you want to be as kind of like broad as possible and be able to offer the tools and services to basically anyone who's joining this kind of uh this race, one could say. As >> And I think >> Yeah.

>> Oh, sorry, Andy. I was just going to say, I think that's really important because and I actually encourage a lot of our partners to open up a very broad range of assets because if you have people coming into your store and they have asset Y on chain X, you want them to be able to spend it. You don't want to say, "Actually, no. Do you know what? We only want this stable coin." You want as many people through the door being able to transact in your store, whether that's in store or online. Otherwise, you're just creating greater checkout drop-off, which is obviously what retailers want to avoid.

>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I actually saw some some stuff about that how uh using stable coins could help save a lot of the failed credit card um transactions that end up equating to like 3 to 5% of any given online retailer. They lose that much uh customer value just from failed credit card transactions. One thing on the um kind of WalletConnect Pay and the suite of tools is you know, I'm just curious what the what what the business lines for WalletConnect are. Um what that what that revenue story is and just generally how how you guys are making making fees, generating revenue from the product line, and kind of what what that story

is. >> Yeah, so think of WalletConnect that kind of core network as the the most low-level piece of our technology stack. So, this is the network that allows our 700 different wallets to communicate with hundreds of thousands of applications, whether that's for signing in and logging in to to an application, a hedge fund making a trade, or an an end user making a a payment. So, that's this very low-level stack. It's open source. Anybody can can join the network. Um and that is used by many many organizations around the world.

And on top of that network, we then build products that we monetize. Um and so, WalletConnect Pay, which is the acceptance product, is is one of those. WalletConnect Pay, we charge transaction fees like most merchant payments. Uh we take a small percentage or under a percent so that we can compete and and make this as cost-effective as possible for for merchants. So, we take a small transaction fee on that. We have other products in the WalletConnect kind of suite of of offerings as well. So, we have some tooling for compliance use cases. So, here think things like travel rule, um where somebody needs to verify that they own a specific wallet. We have a product offering for that.

We're building against payouts and other use cases. We have some trading offerings, and we have a suite of developer tools also under the re-owned brand for people building applications. So, that's that's kind of our model where we have this free open source network, products on top of it that that we build against. And our goal over the long run is to make that network uh kind of self-sustaining. So, driving that revenue that we're making back into the network, to the node operators, to the token holders, um, to to make sure that over the long run, WalletConnect continues to be, uh, and continues to be able to operate as this kind of core, very, very neutral infrastructure for the ecosystem. And I

think that neutrality is what's most important to us, um, is we're there for the entire ecosystem, tradfi and crypto-native, um, any asset, any chain. >> Yeah, that neutrality and that flexibility to support different kinds of stable coins, you know, the different models is extremely important because we're seeing more businesses become better educated and therefore more opinionated about the practices that they ultimately put into place. Um, and so it makes sense, you know, uh, the way that you you frame and lay out, you know, the different revenue streams that you have and the different uh, uh, you know, factors in in the overall WalletConnect complex. I'm curious about kind of the the growth

story here. You know, we we obviously know that stable coins are, uh, exceedingly interesting for a variety of businesses. Um, I recently had the realization that, you know, the merchants themselves may not even need to opt into this, uh, into this model for them to work. And I'm curious about your perspective to this because we walked through this example, this hypothetical scenario where maybe, you know, I walk in, I want to buy a cup of coffee, I tap my card. That consumer behavior is is very ingrained in consumers that, you know, tap a physical either phone or card experience. The merchants probably just want fiat delivered to them. That's what they're accustomed to, especially as, you know,

that's what they're paying their bills, their their their rent, you know, their payroll. That's what they're paying their expenses in. But in the back end of both of these things, we have the banks. And the banks are able to coordinate the most capital efficient process for settling those transactions. So, I tap my card, my my money gets drawn from my bank, but when it goes into the merchant's bank, the settlement of that transaction could be done in stablecoins, and then the merchant bank could deliver fiat to the merchant when they're ready to pay payroll. Do we need consumers or merchants to opt into the stablecoin experience, or can this be entirely abstracted away? We can go to the banks themselves to coordinate most of the settlement and most of the volume

of these consumer transactions. >> Um so, great really great question, and I think that the key thing here is um to recognize that a payment is actually made up of multiple layers. So, it has a settlement layer to it, but it also has a kind of coordination and messaging layer that allows the parties in that chain to say yes, this payment is authorized, or maybe no, this may be a fraudulent payment, for example. So, in this use case, blockchain is a brilliant brilliant settlement layer. It's incredibly fast and incredibly efficient at moving assets from one place to the other. Um and we've seen that um you

know, uh the big card schemes are already doing some settlement, a lot of the large acquirers are doing some settlement using stablecoins, a lot of B2B payment processing is now taking place using stablecoins. But, for consumer payments, you also need this additional layer, which does things like fraud, compliance, and and other checks. Now, in parts of the world where card payments are very uh dominant, you just pointed out, uh you know, everyone's used to using their card and going and and tapping tapping that card. Um a you know, we can use this messaging layer of uh a major card network, for example, to bring that kind of coordination and then the settlement can happen on chain. Um

one of the challenges with that, and I think, you know, I'm I have mixed feelings about stablecoin cards because I think they've brought great um possibility for end users to hold these assets and do things with them. They brought very little um benefits to the merchants because they just look like a regular card transaction. The fees are very high typically. Um and so we haven't yet kind of delivered, I think, all of the benefits of this technology to merchants in those use cases. And then also there are many places around the world where card penetration is very, very low, um often driven by even higher card fees and even slower settlement times from the card networks.

Um and so in those places, actually having this kind of um more consumer-facing layer, which allows people to bring their assets and use them directly, enabling that whole payment to take place on chain, um I think it's really important. I think we're also um you know, in going to be in this intermediary stage over the next 5 to 10 years as different parts of the stack catch up. Today, definitely most merchants say, "I want to be able to accept fiat or I want to receive fiat even if I'm accepting stablecoins." But we're seeing more and more big corporates move their treasury on chain.

We're seeing more and more um companies be able to make their payroll in stablecoins and do payouts. We're seeing more and more people being able to pay their suppliers in stablecoins. And so for me, it's kind of like everything is moving for different companies at a slightly different pace. But I think that the end state is going to be let's keep as much chain as much on chain for as much of the of the stack as possible. And then these direct acceptance routes, where there's no fiat leg involved and you can just kind of cut out that off-ramp at the very end of the transaction, make a lot of sense.

>> Yep. You know, on that on that kind of like broader vision there and on on my growth story getting to WalletConnect specifically on, you know, revenue side there, the growth story side, it's really just kind of like an understanding of of a of an investment or or or a thesis around growing stablecoin volumes, growing payment and merchant relationships. What I'm trying to understand a bit is like what is like the WalletConnect like bull thesis here? Like like what like what is the like tokens being absolutely battered and people want real fundamental value that gives them an investment in something that provides a longer term return of revenues to the token, a a growth stage market, a large TAM,

adoption. Could you just kind of give us like your high-level like what is the what is the the longer bull kind of thesis or vision for how you guys scale your merchant relationships, your adoption, and thus your revenue and kind of your broader kind of financials and, you know, kind of tie that back into the underlying equity or or the token itself. How do we think about understanding WalletConnect from a investment perspective, not financial advice, just kind of trying to understand what the big picture is here.

>> Yeah, so look, I think WalletConnect historically has been core infrastructure for the crypto world and as that market has changed, we have really repositioned ourselves as core infra for the entire financial services stack. So, the last year has really been focused on WalletConnect Pay as well as on other products, you know, things around tokenized equities, tokenized real world asset trading capabilities, um B2B payments, and things like ISO 20022 Swift messages.

So, really thinking about the stack that we have in the technological capabilities that we have, and how they're going to be used in the future. And I'm a big believer that in many, many financial transactions, whether that's a consumer payment or a business payment or a securities trade going forward, WalletConnect has a really important role to play there. We've been building out the team accordingly. New Chief Revenue Officer joined us recently from Visa, uh which I'm very, very excited about. Um we've started to think more about how we commercialize our products effectively. And, you know, I'm also, to be very honest, I think historically in Web3, there's been uh lack of appetite sometimes to pay for this kind of infrastructure. As we start

moving into the more traditional space, um people are very used to and willing to pay for secure, robust, and resilient infrastructure. Um so, our revenue model there is changing, and I think we've built great foundations now so that as we start to see those those numbers come in, um you know, we're going to be able to drive um value back to the token um of over time. Um I do think it's a long-term game. This these the the global financial infrastructure is not going to change overnight. Um and so, for us, it's about building the right, very long-term partnerships and taking a long-term approach to making sure that we maintain this moat that we have. Um you know, WalletConnect doesn't really

have many competitors, um certainly of the network size and scale that we do. And so, for us, it's about continuing to protect that and invest in that moat, invest in those long-term relationships, and over time being able to capture that value. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so, like the thesis there on like the adoption and and the partnership side as well as the scaling of the business lines. It It's really like a economies of scale type of game. Like you need to get, you know, as many B2B partnerships as possible, um as much kind of consumer and and merchant adoption as possible. And like the spreads that you guys are charging for the business side, they're they're they're quite quite small. But are you also doing things with like with like

enterprises and these types like more like kind of traditional businesses in like SLA models and like guaranteed like licensing agreements or is it purely on a transaction basis? Like is there any kind of nuances to the business side that you can share that aren't like proprietary? >> Yeah, I mean again, different products of ours are monetized in slightly different ways. So some are these type transaction fees. We're getting an increasing number of requests for almost like dedicated channels through the WalletConnect network for different reasons, whether that's security or or resilience. So we're exploring almost like a an enterprise grade version of WalletConnect. Although

what I would say to that is probably actually that the entire network is is pretty enterprise grade given the volumes that that we do today. But all of these different use cases support integration help are definitely driving a lot of demand for us as well. So I think you know, it's all of that. But what's most important for me is also that we have this optionality. We have the core network, but then we are able to place different bets on top of that. The payment space is is one of those big bets. Tokenized equities and tokenized assets is another big bet. And that gives us a lot of flexibility and a lot of agility that even if our thesis around, let's say, consumer payments is wrong,

although I'm pretty sure we're going to be right over the long run, even if that's wrong, we've got a whole other set of sweets of suite of products and services that that we're supplying to the market as well. And that gives us great resiliency, I think. Nobody quite knows how this is going to play out. Um certainly if you if you'd ask me 10 years ago about the 10 years that we've just seen in this space, I definitely wouldn't have got got it right. So nobody knows what the next 10 years is going to hold, but what I feel very confident about is that we're really well positioned to adapt to that market and to be able to serve the people who are driving change there.

>> Yeah. I think maybe the last uh question here just to this end is, you know, we we kind of opened up the show talking about how, you know, $6 billion of stablecoin volume flowed through the wallet connect network last week. How do we get that, you know, to 10 billion, 50 billion, 60 billion per week? Um you know, what what is the succinct answer there? >> [snorts] >> Yeah, so I think a lot more business use cases. Um you know, we have uh we've been doing a lot of work in compliance, um in making sure that transactions are safe and secure, in security. And I mean the last we didn't touch on this at the beginning, but the last 3 months has obviously been one of the worst uh you know, in in the history of crypto for

security incidents. So that's something that we're really investing in and that people care about a lot at the moment where I think we have a a very important role to play. So um for us it's about continuing to kind of like double down on on some of these spaces and make sure that we've got the right offerings. Um and then also making sure that over time we're able to build the right business models around those. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, love it. Jess, thanks for answering those tough questions. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Hope you have a great rest of your day. That's been our Stable Up episode number 38. Um different times in the market, different different set of questions, different set of investor uh

you know, uh wants and a changing institutional enterprise stablecoin kind of intergalactic bullish time and kind of a bit of a token slump, which I think these two will probably kind of even themselves out in the coming months to year. So, thanks for joining us, Jess. >> Thanks very much for having me. >> We'll see you next time. Thanks, Jess. All righty, guys. That's been Stable Up episode number 38. We're going to take you on a quick break. We've got the Anchorage folks with BCG up next. Another institutional conversation. Was trying to get to the bottom there with Jess about how how they make money.

Like, what is the money story? What is the financial story? Like, you know, what is the investment thesis here? Like, what are we trying to like what market are we taking out? And so, these are the questions that roll up guests are fielding these days, guys. >> Yeah. Um, look, it's you know, maybe more difficult for some people to answer that than others. Uh, sometimes there are VC-funded lawyer contracts. You know, it's not typical that I think companies private companies talk or disclose their financial numbers or their revenues. So, I think some some founders are a little bit more tight-lipped than others.

Um, however, you know, lots of volume. We kind of know the story. We know that, you know, this is a game of network effects. And so, larger volumes increasingly growing means you know, you can ultimately charge a fee on those volumes. So, I think, you know, we heard it from Jess, more B2B integrations means more payments flowing through that network. You don't want to charge too much too early or else you handicap your own growth. So, you want to get a lot of volume flowing through. Make sure you get those network effects and then start incrementally charging from there, maybe layer on some more some more product offerings to

ultimately, you know, collect some more fees. And that's the growth story. And then, you know, the story becomes how much of that is flowing into it asset that the public can take part of, whether that be a token or >> Yeah. I mean, that's what I was looking at, right? I'm like, this [snorts] token's gotten beaten up, same as everything else. Nothing changed there. But, you know, is there like what's the Cuz all we need is like, I don't know, man. I feel like in this market you don't need a You need a lot, but you don't need a lot. You need like Yeah. And I don't know. I think a lot of these tokens >> saying is you at least need a story. You at least need is the revenue story? And that is the revenue story, and that is a very important thing for people to

answer because if you can at least articulate how you're making money and how you're going to pass that money back to people who buy your financial instrument, >> Yes. >> you have a a compelling thesis. >> I don't know the story about Wall Connect as much, but I I anticipate a lot of these projects still have a lot of like the token equity dynamic that they have to deal with, so >> Yeah, exactly. And so, I think maybe people are, you know, and they're competing interests. Like, I can understand if, you know, disclosing some of these revenues is going to lead the token holder community to say, "Hey, I want a piece of that." Whereas, the equity holders are like, "Hey, we don't want that flowing into the token. We want that flowing into our equity."

>> That's why there's a weird dynamic still, I think. All right, guys. We've got Nathan and >> Roy. Nathan's the CEO of Anchorage Digital, a large crypto bank. They had a big announcement today with tokenized deposits on chain that I just saw got picked up. So, congrats to them. And then, we've also got Roy Choudhury from BCG, one of the large consulting groups that I believe a Rollup employee got offered an internship at and politely declined to work for the Rollup up summer. We're not going to talk to him about that, but that's the introduction.

Let's bring him up. Let's bring Nathan and Roy up. Guys, welcome to the show. Uh thanks for rocking with us in the back there for a bit. Good to have you. >> Great to be here. Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Absolutely. I think it's your both of yours uh first time on the show. Uh and congratulations. You guys put out a joint report uh and uh doing great things together. So, would love just a quick intro. Nathan, maybe we can start with you and then we'll get into uh the report here after we introduce you guys to our audience. >> Sure. Uh my name's Nathan, co-founder and CEO of Anchorage Digital. We're a digital asset platform for institutions.

Uh that means institutional investors, institutional builders, banks, broker-dealers, anybody looking to build a business in digital assets uh can build it on top of our uh infrastructure and our banking stack. >> And the uh first federally chartered crypto bank, according to my notes here, which is very very cool to see. I think we're going to see more of that. Uh and Roy, uh welcome. >> Thank you. Good to see you guys. Uh Roy Church 3, New York-based senior partner at BCG. I lead our capital markets practice and also a lot of our work in the digital asset space. Had the pleasure of partnering with Nathan and team on the report that we put out. We kind of straddle between the TradFi and DeFi, helping some of the um large banks think through what all this means and

where the opportunities are for them, but also partnering with the DeFi space. >> Yeah, incredible. And I'm not sure if you guys caught the tail end of our uh our previous conversation, but we're increasingly asking the questions where you put the answers into this report. So, I'm excited to have this conversation. Some of the questions that we're asking is, you know, what does revenue look like for this industry? What are the revenue stories here? And ultimately, how does that revenue translate into token holders, shareholders for these companies? We're just talking how there's still this token equity divide at stake here. And so, I'm I'm excited to to hopefully get some answers to these questions.

Um Roy, maybe you could start and just talk to us about, you know, what the divide looks like between TradFi and DeFi at this point, and maybe the the overall, you know, 30,000-ft view of this report, why you decided to approach working on this report, and we'll we'll you know, it's obviously a great partner in Anchorage, and we'll get to some of the answers here. >> Happy to. So, I think we've all seen the incredible momentum in the space in the last couple of years, and I think the US policy has been a main driving factor behind that momentum, right? And also, I think the technology has matured quite dramatically in the last few years, that it is now being taken seriously by institutional uh use cases, which I think wasn't the case earlier. So, I think we're at a unique

moment in time where there is a significant policy momentum, the technology is at a point of uh maturity, and I think the questions many are asking is, what is going to be the most compelling use cases uh to create value by leveraging this technology? So, I think in the report, we really look at the broad landscape, starting with cryptocurrency, crypto trading, and margin lending on the basis of crypto, we then look at tokenized money, which includes tokenized deposits, stablecoins, and then real-world assets like tokenized equities, fixed income, securities financing activities. And our view is that we are starting to see a flywheel effect where all of these use cases are starting to come together. As an

example, you can't really drive full potential in tokenized equities till you have a corresponding tokenized money instrument to settle in. And I think we're at a unique point in time where many of the asset classes are maturing to a point that you're starting to see the flywheel come through. There have been many estimates of what it what this market may be. We think this is going to be a parallel infrastructure build that's going to continue for the next decade, and over time, we will see activities move from the legacy tech stack into a uh distributed ledger technology and digital asset stack. So, we'll see parallel running of the infrastructure uh for a while as value sort of migrates.

And to your question, I think a huge portion of the value today is captured by the financial services industry between the depositors and borrowers or between issuers and investors. And I think this is an opportunity where through efficiency, both operational efficiency and balance sheet efficiency, you could see some of that value migrate to the uh investors and the issuers and the depositors and lenders. So, I think it's a unique moment in time for redistribution of some of the value across the ecosystem. >> Yeah. Yeah. And And Nathan, just kind of building off that in the report, there was, you know, an opportunity here for 30 to 60 billion dollars in in value for in crypto brokerage and lending.

Obviously, you guys kind of come at this first with this kind of like you know, not crypto native, but like crypto as the underpinning, blockchain as the underpinning for a lot of these opportunities. You know, I'm just curious through your conversations with allocators, with banks, with asset managers, building off what Roy said here about kind of like how this convergence is is happening. Where do you see these banks kind of coming in to to try to chip away at that value that is kind of just sitting there idle uh in brokerage, in lending, and kind of like what is your view on that opportunity? >> Yeah, I think this one is a one that uh makes a lot of sense to a lot of people both in crypto and in TradFi. They see that there's uh fundamentally brokerage volume to be done within digital assets.

Underlying clients wanting to buy and sell Bitcoin, Ethereum, or other assets, and then keep them in the in the platform. Uh most of the large financial institutions in the country have banking arms and brokerage arms that are combined and are really trying to own the entire life cycle of any one particular um client's uh you know, financial life. Uh, and so adding crypto as part of that. Most of the large financial institutions, most large banks, are already seeing the deposit flight going to, say, uh, various crypto counterparties where their clients are actually doing the trading of the assets. And so this is a very natural place to to get started, own more of the clients' um, and customers' life cycle and journey, uh,

and be able to help them buy and sell those assets. Naturally, once you have the assets in platform, you start to ask the question, can I collateralize against this? Can I borrow against my Bitcoin? Can I borrow against my ETH? And um, that's also a very natural business for a bank to be in. You know, they do uh, securities back lending every single day. They issue mortgages where there's a mark-to-market on the underlying uh, piece of real estate uh, that it that collateralizes that loan. And so these things feel very natural and you're subbing in another assets uh, that can be used there. Um, and so this is the the most immediate addressable opportunity. And it's uh, it's very clear to validate this opportunity because you see the success of some of the publicly traded exchanges. You see

how much volume they're doing uh, and that that volume that each of them is doing is an opportunity for any financial institution who wants to come to that space. >> Yeah. Nathan, I'm I'm curious about your reaction to some of the rhetoric we've heard out of the banks because we did hear a lot about this capital flight that could leave bank deposits. It it was something to the tune of trillions of dollars that could leave if stablecoin regulation progressed. At the same time, we had this conflicting these conflicting theories sometimes even within the same institution where their brokerage departments or their market making was extremely excited about the opportunity here because it could bring lots more volume, a lot more product offerings to their end customer. But on the other side of the house in in the same institution, you know, that same

opportunity presented a potential draw on the amount of deposits that could take place in that system. And so you had these conflicting ideas in internally at these institutions and then the heads of these institutions had to reconcile those perspectives and ultimately make it make an make a distinction. How do you view the opportunity here and and where do you start to siphon off right from the banks or will ultimately work with them? Do you think, you know, the the rise of this converging technology where, you know, we have a lot more of these assets being tokenized, going further down the risk curve, all of these assets do become on-chain assets? Do you think that presents an opportunity or a potential threat to these banks and that is sort of the decision that they're

weighing here? >> God it is that uh both things can be true simultaneously and you don't necessarily have to um uh you don't have to necessarily have to resolve the contradiction. It can be true that uh if a if a bank is not innovative, they may lose some deposits to a uh stablecoin based system. They're already losing some deposits because of the the fact that uh increasingly uh their deposits are going to fintech-based uh use cases like um either uh direct fintech competitors to them or to uh crypto-based offerings um say like a a retail exchange. Uh so it's already happening and they're already seeing

seeing the numbers there. Uh so that could be true at the same time that that presents an opportunity for them. And so the the fundamental opportunity is innovation. Come in and say, "Hey, we're going to uh integrate crypto into this into this bank uh whether that's in within the wealth stack or within the prime services stack uh and then not say anything of the the numerous opportunities they have around stablecoins and tokenized deposits. Um a big reason big part of the reason that we are looking to enable so many banks in the space is that we are the first regulated nationally federally regulated bank that can do digital assets. We've shown the way, we've shown that it's possible uh and now we want to bring other banks along for that journey, and there's a whole a whole menu of options that they're uh able to

go go look after. And so, fundamentally, I think it's like it's the the contradiction in terms may look like a contradiction at at first blush, but ultimately, both things are true in that the the the real answer is there's an opportunity here. >> Mhm. And and then really just on that point, just kind of uh piggybacking there, obviously this announcement today from Anchorage was specifically around enabling tokenized deposits in kind of in that lens of parallel ledger possibilities, right? Not having to kind of stop what's working to kind of do this whole revolutionary integration.

It's much more of this kind of like parallel opportunity to enable 24/7 365 payment and settlement capabilities for banks. Like, what signal does this send to the banking industry as far as like possibilities, uh upgrading kind of what may be seen as like an ossified incumbent into like, you know, kind of like staying with the times, clearly pushing the agenda here with your work with Anchorage? What is your What's your kind of view on the on the adoption cycle here from uh banks wanting to actually integrate this kind of parallel system, starting with tokenized deposits for 24/7 365 settlement payments? How does that evolve and progress from here based on your kind of deep understanding and

knowledge of this industry? >> Great question. So, I would say the main signal is that tokenized money is here. Now, tokenized money will take many forms. I think it'll take the form of tokenized deposits, it'll take the form of stable coins, it'll take the form of central bank uh digital currency, synthetic CBDCs, tokenized money market funds, right? I think the main signal is that uh tokenized money is here, and it's going to play an important role in the future ecosystem of money and payments. I think that is clear. I think all of these complementary instruments will provide both uh consumer and business clients with a range of opportunities to invest their cash across a range of yield and liquidity

spectrum, right? So, I think stablecoins may be instruments in transit for many players, but it could be store of value uh in markets where there is a weaker currency, right? So, I think what this provides is to a client a range of opportunities and a a range of rich instruments, and they can pick and choose through the course of the day as they have excess cash, where that cash is parked, whether it's in a tokenized deposit or it's in a stablecoin uh or or some other form. I would say the other signal is um the old sort of commercial banking deposits are, I think, innovating, right? I think programmable money is just going to be table stakes in the future.

And I think tokenized deposit is enabling that. And I think what it'll release is a significant amount of inefficient liquidity that is locked in the system. I mean, we speak to corporate treasurers all the time, and I think many of them have about $20 billion in cash sitting across different banking accounts globally. And part of the reason is uh settlement takes time, the uh ability to forecast when money will come in is very challenging. So, to address a lot of these inefficiencies, you have a large amount of cash that is sitting idle across multiple hundreds of accounts for a large global corporate.

And I think this provides innovation really provides a ability for them to optimize that, maybe park that money into securities and earn an yield, and really drive uh innovation in payments and movement of money seamlessly. >> And Roy, just kind of on that, who do you expect to be like the first um you know, users of this? Like, is it someone like you or I using our our kind of personal banking account? Is it more enterprise level? And then, kind of on that note, is this going to be you know, we've seen talks of Wells Fargo, City Bank, and I think Bank of America, I think maybe I'm getting one wrong there, that are like joining together to create like a shared blockchain or shared, you know, digital

ledger that it's not you know, individualized to their individual bank and then having to like uh reconcile it. Like we've seen talks of that. So, like just kind of two questions here. Who do you anticipate to be like the main users of tokenized deposits that Anchorage just launched for banks? And then are we talking shared consortium environments? Are we talking public blockchain environments? Are we talking like individual like JP Morgan's Connexus environments? How do you anticipate uh user base and the form of distributed ledger or blockchain that these banks will use?

>> Great question. I would say the first user base is going to be um the corporate client base, whether those are corporate treasurers that have global operations, need to move money throughout the course of the day. Uh there is a significant size of the prize because they have large a lot of sort of inefficiently parked cash reserves. So, we expect this to be firstly used within large global corporates with operations across the globe that deal with multiple currencies, multiple bank accounts. So, I think this would be a very compelling proposition to that group. I would say institutional investors that are looking to make large payments in tokenized securities. I think with JP Morgan, we've already seen the use case in securities financing markets, repo

markets, for example, uh is a great example where you have a large market, a trillion-dollar in US repos every day, and most of the market is driven by 15 to 20 counterparties. So, it's very easy to drive the network effect and efficiency in that market and have accelerated adoption. Uh I think uh in many of the banks, as Nathan said, are have already enabled crypto trading, we could see tokenized deposit as a complementary cash instrument within that space uh as well. But initially, we see this more as a transaction banking and institutional investor tokenized money solution.

To your second question, um I think tokenized deposits are very bank specific solutions. So, every bank is designing their own tokenized deposit offering. JP Morgan has one, Citi has one, and many other banks will have one. But, when the money moves outside their bank, they would need a interbank clearing and settlement layer for tokenized deposit, right? Otherwise, you would have a ton of efficiency for a client within the bank's ecosystem. But, the moment the money leaves the bank, you would have all of the inefficiencies creep back again. And this is really what the consortium is trying to do that you mentioned is really look at a shared uh ledger for interbank clearing and settlement, where you could have

tokenized deposit move from bank A to bank's B account quite seamlessly, just like you have money movement today. So, that's a layer that we see. Uh initially, that doesn't necessarily need to be on a public blockchain. You could have that on a private permission blockchain. It's likely going to be a financial market infrastructure utility, but in the long run, we see tokenized deposit also to be available on a public blockchain. I think the question for the industry there to solve is how do you stay compliant with KYC AML requirements and have tokenized deposits on a public blockchain.

Uh because it is unlikely that you could have a self-custody wallet with tokenized deposits on them, because you wouldn't know who the client is. So, I think the main constraint around having tokenized deposits in public blockchains is to understand how we can deal with KYC AML expectations of a banking product like tokenized deposits. >> Um and Nathan, we got something here from uh one of your uh Anchorage Anchorage community members asking about the USD PT, the Western Union token, just kind of building off there of what Roy said. I mean, you guys were the issuer for Western Union stablecoin, Tether USAT Athena etc.

You know, you're speaking to these banks, they're looking to launch tokenized deposits, then we're going to get to stablecoins and more. Obviously, you you have a lot of experience here. Maybe just drawing directly from the Western Union use case. I mean, the case study there is like, "Hey guys, look how much Look how much revenue that we're going to be able to kind of create for Western Union or perhaps save." Uh and and just enabling more efficiency, more cross-border payments, remittances, and such. When it comes to just like speaking with these banks, Nathan, building there off what Roy was saying about the user base as well as the kind of setup that that that these banks will choose when when it comes to enabling tokenized money, like what what

lessons thoughts experience that you gained from, you know, Western Union and others are you looking to impart when you're speaking with these banks and kind of helping them walk through their options? What are some of the questions? What are some of the pushbacks? Just kind of give us a sense of like an insight into what those conversations really look like. >> narrative is going to be really strong in a bunch of different areas. It's going to be strong both in fintech or bank adjacent use cases. It's also going to be popular within within banks themselves.

So, Western Union is a wonderful example about about this. They are a global remittance provider, and in their use cases of global remittance provider, they are integrated with a number of fintechs and their own points of presence where you can utilize the Western Union stablecoin in order to send remittances globally. This use case is going to affect not just Western Union, but any of the banks that also want to integrate into the Western Union ecosystem. So, I think the the Western Union ecosystem is a perfect example where Western Union is going to create that stablecoin. They're going to use their distribution order to get that stablecoin popular and then anybody within that network is going to need to both accept well, accept dollars and accept the the

new Western Union stablecoin that's come through. We have onboarded about a half dozen banks within Latin America in order to be able to accept that stablecoin because they want to be able to utilize it as part of the offerings that they have. They will naturally also want to potentially create their own stablecoin because they have their own distribution network that they use or look at tokenized deposits. And so, none of these use cases are going to be mutually exclusive. In fact, I anticipate a world where banks are accepting roughly all of the genius compliance stablecoins and interoperating between them and then also having those systems interoperate with tokenized deposits as well. Not dissimilar to the way that we see some of these systems work within traditional

finance where many different types of payment are accepted and then uh kind of standardized inside any particular banking institution to meet the needs of the the clients that are holding the assets there. >> Yeah. And then I guess last thing there from me and I'm sure Rob has something for you Nathan is the is the is the business kind of vision that here for Anchorage to be the issuer of tokenized deposits and then stablecoins for a lot of the the major banks in the US. Like is that like like the biggest kind of project for you guys right now? Like to me it seems like total stablecoin market cap is 320 315 billion. I mean, these banks could issue 10 billion 20

billion dollars in a in a single hour and it would be a very small amount of their own, you know, holdings and reserve and balance sheet. Like the opportunity here is like seismically larger than the what's happening just in the current existence of stable coins is this like the main prerogative for Anchorage? >> So we're thinking about it in two ways. We're thinking about it that banks can use us as their regulated counterparty. Uh and so we can take on a lot of the regulation and the the responsibility there.

Uh and we think many banks will choose to do that. Many shows Many banks will choose to use us as a correspondent either as a correspondent for holding digital assets, holding crypto, holding stable coins, holding tokenized deposits. Uh but then also on the on the issuance of them. Many of them might say "Hey Anchorage has what it takes to do smart contract management, the reserve management, etc. We will We will use them as our uh regulated issuer for this." I think as many will also decide that we want to use Anchorage as infrastructure. We want to take the tech that Anchorage has built on and utilize that tech to build our custody system or our trading system or our tokenization system. Uh and so uh we may well be the regulated

issuer behind uh some of these stable coins and some of some of these tokenized deposits, but we may also be a tech provider that allows those uh financial institutions to use their regulatory licensure as well. We aren't opinionated on that. We want to We want to enable the banks that we work with on every step of that journey. >> Yeah. My question is is a similar one. I think we think about the scale of the opportunity here. You guys mentioned, you know, four very very significant categories here uh in this press release around crypto brokerage, already how that's a 30 to 60 billion dollar industry annually, mentioned tokenized money in terms of stable coins and tokenized deposits we've talked about, tokenized funds, tokenized RWAs all part of this as well. We We have this thesis

on the show that we talk about where uh these things are ultimately converging. The infrastructure that serves the new tokenized equities, tokenized RWAs, tokenized deposits world is the same that underpins the crypto native world, that is ultimately converging. Also, once a dollar is on chain, it tends to stay on chain, whereas a dollar off chain tends to stay off chain. My my my question here is I'll I'll pose it to both of you guys, and I don't mean to sound reductive because these are both extremely significant opportunities here, but we know that there's a capital efficiency story on the say traditional financial path as they integrate more of this efficient technology. And then you've got this

re-rating where the infrastructure providers and more of the on chain crypto native world are starting to get this flood of newly tokenized assets, and that is another significant opportunity. My question is which do you think is a greater opportunity for value capture? Those crypto native infrastructure providers that can scale significantly with more tokenized assets as RWAs come on chain and other tokenized assets come on chain, or the traditional financial businesses that already have the assets, but are a little bit further behind in the technology. Where do you think there's more opportunity for growth?

>> I'm I'm happy to take a crack and then Nathan, please please chime in. So, it's going to be very unsatisfactory Rob, but I think it's a bit of both, right? So, if you look at the universe of assets that's in the TradFi space, I mean that is significant multiples of what's on chain at the moment. So, I think there is a >> [snorts] >> significant opportunity in moving those legacy assets on chain, whether those are equity markets in case of tokenized equities or tokenized money market funds. So, I think layer one there is a significant opportunity in just tokenization of traditional asset classes. I think that's sort of step number one. I think the question is who provides that infrastructure, right? And I think it'll be a partnership

within the traditional financial institutions and I think the DeFi ecosystem and infrastructure providers, right? I think it's going to be a partnership across the two. Once you have these assets on chain, I think there is a second layer of unlock that now you can drive significantly more velocity and activity in these asset classes. Like historically an equity might just be sitting in a brokerage account. Now that you have that equity tokenized, that sort of opens up multiple other use cases of that equity. It can be used as collateral in different forms. You can borrow and lend it. So, we see a sort of opportunity one is just tokenization of traditional financial assets. I think that itself will unlock a significant amount of balance sheet efficiency and operational efficiency. And then layer

two is now that you have these assets on chain, let's drive significantly higher velocity, liquidity, and transparency on these asset classes. >> Very diplomatic answer. Um it makes sense that you guys are building the bridge between these two worlds. Nathan? >> Yeah, I'll come in and be a little bit undiplomatic. Um I think the question is incorrect. Uh the question that you've asked is a little bit about like asking the question of um well, how big can Uber get? Must be the size of the taxi industry. Or how big can Airbnb get? Must be the size of the hotel industry. What you're seeing with this movement and this industry adoption is that this is going to be fundamentally expansionary in terms of the

opportunity set and the the ways that assets can get used. Uh you're going to immediately take all the assets, put them on chain, and give them global distribution. Uh and so it's I think it's fundamentally expansionary for uh both sets of uh user types. So, whether it's the crypto native firms building the infrastructure here or financial institutions and issuers starting to say, "Hey, well, how can we get immediate global uh availability for assets?" And then utility based on top of that. Uh and that's going to have a multiplicative effect. By the way, that entire multiplicative effect is happening at the same time that uh agentic finance and agentic banking is starting to come in and uh that'll also have an expansionary effect. So I think there's in short plenty of opportunity to go

around. >> Let's get this guy to an IPO, huh? Let's get Nathan to an IPO. Give my buddy Pierce a raise, please. Guy's a legend. Thank you for being on, Nathan and Roy, guys. I know we're a little overtime, but we'd love to have you guys back. >> bring you guys back on soon cuz we didn't even get into agenic banking and I think that's going to be a fascinating conversation as well. >> More than nuances to your last question. >> Yeah, yeah, there's there's plenty there. Guys, thanks so much for spending the time. Congrats on the announcement, the report, and would love to have you guys back again soon. >> Thank you. Thanks so much for having us on. Have a good one.

>> Yes, sir. See you at the IPO, boss man. >> All righty, guys. We've got Karn Saroya, the co-founder and CEO of RE protocol. Don't think I was supposed to say the IPO thing, but hey, I don't have any information. We're just going to We're just going to let that one ride. Give my boy Pierce a raise. Probably wasn't supposed to say that one either there, Rob, but we got Karn coming up. He is the CEO, the co-founder of RE. RE had a huge launch. We're going to talk about their token launch, what's happened, their updated business lines. They launched their tokenized reinsurance fund on Avalanche as well. They got insurance from Nexus Mutual. They're doing things the right way. Token's performing amazingly off the launch.

Which as you were saying, Rob, like it's kind of the time. I mean, look at that. I mean, jeez, since we started to stream things up. Um yeah, I mean, I >> So >> I'll just re I'll just kind of double down on what I said to top off the stream, which was that I think the timing here was impeccable. I think for so long we heard months of hey, the market conditions aren't great for launching a token. And that was a combination of several different things. We talked also talked at at the beginning of the show about the divide between token and equity. You know, that was a really complicated thing that the industry was struggling with for years.

It is It feels kind of like the beginning of the end of that qual or quorum or whatever you want to call that thing because it was a very difficult thing to navigate. There's a lot of complexity, but it feels like we're reaching a resolution. And at the same time, you have somewhat of this like apathetic market. Feels like we've already depreciated a lot in the majors. We're kind of bottoming out. So, you know, the whole idea is that you you paint a pretty chart. That's what your goal is for a founder. You deliver shareholder value. That gets reflected in the chart.

>> And I think timing is a really important part of that story. Also, we talked about the fundamentals here. I think I think I think REIS putting the pieces together. So, I think we've got >> fundamentally pouring outside in New York City, Rob. Uh tonight's FIFA game tonight's World Cup game is going to be wet. I'll tell you that much. So, let's get Karn up on the show. I know he's busy. We're already a little bit behind on today's show. Karn, welcome to the show. Good to have you back. I'm sure it's been a hell of a last week, man. >> Yeah. Yeah, busy busy couple weeks. And I hear you guys are getting flood warnings. So, >> Yeah.

>> stay safe out there. >> Yeah. >> I will. Um man, just give us a maybe just catch us up. It's been about 2 weeks since we had you on last. Obviously, you guys got through, launched the RE token, the asset, as well as a tokenized reinsurance fund on Avalanche as of late. You put out some more numbers there uh with regards to your revenues and and some of your total kind of like underlying [snorts] uh book value. So, maybe just catch us up last 2 weeks, you know, what what what deals have got done, token launch reflections, um you know, have you been sleeping, eating? Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah, so uh lots of parts there. For firstly, you know, super thankful to the team and all of our partners as as we got ramped up and launched into TGE. Uh a lot of conviction around what we're doing. I think we're probably the only DeFi protocol to ever present audited financials as part of a listing process. And so, you know, kudos to to Binance, OKX Robinhood Coinbase Kraken everyone who who decided that hey, reinsurance and reinsurance governance should end up on chain.

Um things are good, strong start. I'm very very happy to be kind of refocusing on growth of the business cuz TGE can be distracting for anyone who's ever kind of followed along with one or put one together. Um and the the crux of it is and this is entirely about growth from here on in, right? And so, hit on top line continuing to propel forward. Right now, we're we're at about 510 million in business. We've put on about 120 million in business over the last 30 days.

And so, as we as we kind of like try to push to get to the the billion premium mark, it's really really helpful to have such a positive reception from the market and folks in the insurance industry reaching out to us who are now laid us and you know, we candidly be willing to to work with us in a greater capacity. So, all really feels really good. >> Incredible to see and and you know, I think you're taking a much more pragmatic and thoughtful approach than you know, some of your counterparts that have launched tokens in the past in this industry. Audited financials, I think is something that we're going to see more of. So, congratulations on being a pioneer on that.

And you caught us in this very revenue focused portion stream today. Like we've been fixating on revenues. There was a couple of things that went semi-viral over the weekend around okay, these are the protocols that are generating the most revenue. There was another post that kind of was a comment on that. It's like, okay, well, these are the ones that are passing the most amount of that revenue back to their token holders. And so, this is kind of been the theme of the day. And so, given that you've launched, you know, kind of in just in the recent days, you've got the benefit of hindsight where you kind of know what the market is valuing these days. It is revenue and it's passing that revenue back to token holders. Could you just tell us like the revenue story, you know, you get this much activity, you

can charge some fees. What is the What is the opportunity or the thesis on either deploying that that monetization, that revenue back into the business to reinvest it and and you know, fuel more growth versus funding or you know, kind of putting that into the token or the share and ultimately, how do you make that determination and we'll we'll maybe talk about the growth story for RLY going forward? >> Yeah, for for sure. I mean look, as an operator, I'm singularly focused on just making sure the business compounds, right? For first and foremost. And and right now, we're on track to do 5x year over year. It might end up looking more like 7x year over year, which is an insane growth multiple. Um this is exactly what venture looks for.

Uh we're we're in an enviable position where we're profitable, we're growing at a venture clip and we don't require venture capital. It's kind of kind of interesting place um place to be. Um our the underlying economics of the business for for reinsurance are pretty straightforward, right? Like we take premiums in, we invest those dollars. We expect to earn an insurance margin on every dollar premium that we generate. And then the division of economics ends up being apportioned to each part of the capital stack, right? Like our the the special sauce behind why we've been able to get to where we are is we we stood our hands we stood up and said, "Hey, we're going to be in a market that's opaque, that people don't understand.

The first loss, we'll eat our own cooking. Uh and if if you're a depositor in this protocol, you are protected and you know that if we win, you win. If we lose, you may still win uh and kind of continue on from there. And so, that that for folks who don't know how to under like private private credit or like uh reinsurance or GPUs or what have you is like a really a really good catalyst uh for for enabling capital formation. And so, clearly there are economics that flow to these product tokens within our capital stack. The governance token itself, you know, is intended and we've talked about this in the past, intended to emulate a market structure that's existed for 330 years at Lloyd's.

It it governs who can transact, you know, what processes by which people can get listed, what lines of business are acceptable, how much capital needs to get posted, and it ultimately will govern a massive pot of capital, the asset management strategy behind that capital, whether it's released, who it's released to, whether it needs to grow, and ultimately the fee and revenue stream for transacting on this network. It's nothing nothing new. Yeah. Nothing new in the world of insurance. Yeah. >> Yeah, makes sense. And and you know, you guys could have deployed this business in a more traditional way. You didn't have to use blockchain, right? There are insurance companies that operate off-chain, but you guys decided to use a more

capital-efficient technology stack and and you know, the market is rewarding you for that. My question is more around, you know, the token launch, you know, similar similar thing. You guys could have done this and you could have done it on chain, but still not launched a token. You decided to go ahead and launch the token. I guess the first question is is why? Why launch a token versus just having this ultra-efficient, you know, insurance company that uses, you know, this this next-generation technology. Why launch the token and and further, you know, what advice do you have for people that they're maybe not crypto-native. They don't go into a business thinking, I want to do this because I want to launch a token. I just want to run a profitable business. What advice do you have for

those people as they may be contemplating, okay, I want to go public or I want to stay private and raise another round or I might want to launch a token. What Why did you launch the token when you didn't have to? And and what advice do you have for people that are considering launching tokens? How should they think about it? How should they go about doing it the right way? Yeah, so so in in in two parts. Um the the reason is we're building something larger than a reinsurer, right? The The idea is a global capital ocean that can then be accessed by any insurance company and reinsurer in the world who has economic alignment and incentive that is perfectly correlated with the capital provider and is able to provide the data that is captured on an underwriting step all and percolate that

all the way down to the risk bearer, right? It's a global capital ocean with boats that are insurance companies on top and that needs a coordination mechanism uh and a governance token suits that perfectly, especially given that we can we can kind of draw the direct analogy between the Lloyd's governance council and what should be happening on chain, right? Uh so a individual reinsurer is a big idea. A a a global ocean of capital that supports all insurance activity and really kind of activities a bigger idea. Um and so from here on in we think about you know, where where do stable coins go and where do digital assets go? There are $700 billion that are locked in just security collateral in amongst

reinsurers, right? That is a multiple of the entire stablecoin market and every single dollar that's in insurance or at least in reinsurance will end up in digital asset form or on chain at some point or another and we're at the forefront of that. You take a step further, re insurance the insurance companies that that kind of paper over this entire world, that's trillions of dollars that will eventually be digital assets, right? And so there needs to be a coordination layer for that and that made sense um for us to launch a token. Um clearly it needs to make sense for your business. If if uh uh a token makes sense or not like uh we we've seen all sorts of variations of this from pure governance to value accrual. Um I I would argue that it's still kind of a

Cambrian explosion of folks trying things. Uh we're we're starting to see a convergence on what the market actually values, but if it doesn't make very, very clear sense for your business, I I would kind of avoid it. >> Karn, just a question here from one of the audience. How do you kind of differentiate this from something like Nexus, which provides this on-chain insurance? And maybe this, you know, is a good segue into launching the tokenized reinsurance fund on Avalanche and actually using Nexus and getting a $15 million commitment from them. How do you differentiate and then maybe we can, you know yeah.

>> So, Nexus are now long-time partners of ours. And for for the folks that don't know the the history behind Nexus, like Nexus primarily provides on-chain coverage, right? Um And so, that they're kind of like at the forefront of that. They pioneered that. And honestly, I think they're directionally correct as as DeFi DeFi and on-chain activity matures. We took the exact opposite approach, right? Instead of trying to bring insurance on-chain, we attempted and are and are being successful at turning on-chain capital and digital assets into something that is usable by insurance companies. And so, completely kind of like different, thematically similar but different fundamental approach.

And, you know, our our partnership with with Nexus through the Avalanche fund is kind of their way of participating that as well. Um and so, two two two sides of the coin, different approaches, different tracks. >> Yeah. And then so, you guys launched this tokenized reinsurance fund on Avalanche. Um What is the So, it does Nexus' commitment, does that just end up securing this smart contract layer that you guys are using for the fund or how What is their direct Like what are they insuring?

>> Yeah, so so you can think about Nexus as participating alongside us on insurance risk, right? And so, if for them, this is like another source of uncorrelated yield. It is a direct way to get dollars of premium, and it is a nice balance to the rest of their business, right? And so, that that's what it is. It's specifically on insurance risk. >> Got it. Okay. Got it. So, it's different. It's quite a bit different, and it's almost like opposite approaches. And you're kind of happening into like the that like the capital formation capability of of building on chain. Um not to just go you know come

back to to token side, but I have to ask um how should we think about like the the like formulating the thesis here for RE protocol for this year into next into the following? Like how should we think about the growth opportunity for RE protocol and the asset? Obviously right now, you're saying it's a governance [snorts] token as essentially just kind of like this protocol token, this coordination mechanism in the future as you look to onboard more more insurance companies, counterparties, etc. You're kind of able to kind of create this shared alignment around a single digital asset. Going forward, how do how do we think about the RE protocol now that it has the RE token and asset associated with it? Um

you know, obviously we're in this kind of like buyback shareholder value conversation. I think maybe you're saying it's a little bit too early for that. How do we think about the protocol, the investment thesis, the broader kind of growth story here now that we are post token, and you have this mechanism to create this coordinated kind of a group of insurers? What does that change, and and how should we think about kind of like the long-term bull thesis here for something like RE protocol? >> [snorts] >> Obviously not financial advice here. >> Sure, sure. Look, like the the num the North Star is build a massive completely transparent reinsurance capital layer that spins off tons of cash, right? The economic actions that are coordinated off of that layer,

we're not precluded to, right? And so, whether that becomes a pass-back via buybacks or a fee override for transacting on the network or performing some other useful action on the network, that's all kind of within scope, right? The But, the critical part is make sure the thing prints cash, right? Like Like without that as kind of the foundational piece, everything else is moot. And if you look at reinsurers broadly, right? Munich Re, Swiss Re, Hannover, these guys are printing billions in free cash flow a quarter.

Um you know, and historically have done so at a very, very predictable clip. And so, if you think about what does the DeFi market value, it's that kind of predictability, right? It's that kind of low volatility. It It's looking for a machinery that fits really, really well with what DeFi's intended to accomplish. And our business is entirely about security collateral. Show the world exactly what you have in case certain things out in in the real world happen. Um and make good on your promises, right? And so, I I think all of it is directionally correct. The The critical piece is that we we kind of anchor this momentum with continued growth and compounding.

>> Yeah. Do you Do you guys have a view on sort of what what a more verticalized product offering could look like as you build out more of this capital pool? Are there additional product offerings that you're thinking about, looking at? >> Yeah. [snorts] So, so the beauty of being like a technologist in this space is that everything looks like lunch, right? So, so so so >> This guy's pretty pretty confident after a nice token launch, huh? >> Yeah, I I But I But I've also I've also kind of built insurance companies, right? So, like we're we're a handful of people on Earth that understand DeFi well and understand the entire infrastructure of the insurance company and the regulated nature of these businesses and what's necessary to get stuff done and to grow.

Um and so if you think about where we're at in this inflection point in time, amazing. Like we built we're the first across the finish line to get some scale in this capital transformer that brings in digital assets into this massive market. We've also got AI now that compresses every potential workflow that is like uh even remotely related to insurance. It's literally capture information at the top end, transform it multiple times, uh and and come up with an expected value loss on what you think you're writing insurance business on, right? And so there there is a pathway here to like wholesale moving and acquiring large chunks of the entire value chain that are ahead of us to crystallize distribution for the reinsurance capital layer and grow the overall margin, right? The the the way that I think

about this is like at some point or another you're just going to have hyperintelligent computers that capture underwriting information, run the math, figure out what the expected loss on an insurance policy is going to be, write the policy, provision the capital on chain, all in one fell swoop, right? As efficient as efficient as you can get it. The way that I'm describing it is the way it's going to be. Don't get me wrong, the insurance industry moves really really slowly, but the pieces are all there, right? And if the pieces are all there and there are willing participants and folks are just going to push and push and push, we're going to get there.

>> So you're describing like agentic actuaries? And >> Yeah, like like AI underwriter god, basically. >> And and and your your vision is that those are going They're not going to have their own capital. They're just going to have the They're just going to agentically determine the potential risk of these policies, then kind of use your capital or or reuse capital as like this capital pool that they can draw draw from in like this just-in-time way when they need to commit that that capital.

>> Yeah, yeah, if you if you think about just DeFi broadly, right? There's nothing special about the capital. The capital has like an expected rate of return and some variability around it. Um and so the efficiencies come from massive scale uh and and building the regulatory wrapper and this everything that's necessary to form that capital. The interesting parts become at the software layer over top of that where now what what we just described is start is going to manifest, right? Like that's that's where this is all headed. >> Very cool. >> Man, Carton, one of the things that we actually have heard quite a bit from like let's just say like large L1 ecosystems is using their treasury to acquire businesses, right? You know, you their token trades in the billions in

the past and uh you know, they they they have a decent amount of ownership of it, leveraging that capital um that's kind of just sitting there, go buy a um business that spits off revenue and that you can put on chain. When it when it comes from your perspective, obviously you've just kind of opened up this new uh capital source for RE, what what would be the what would be the first acquisition that you would do? If this was on your mind, what what kind of business acquisitions make sense for you guys at this stage and maybe there's not maybe there's just not one.

>> Yeah, so so look, I I want to have as few variables uh at play as possible early on, right? Like right now we have we taking collateral, we go collect premium. We have a big lot of investable capital. All of it's at the risk-free rate for the most part when it's off chain. We've got some partners on chain. I don't think it behooves us at this scale to evolve that too much, right? Like I I want people to feel very comfortable with kind of what we're doing. Want I want people to see that there's a scale track record. There there are going to be no blow-ups. We're we're hyper-focused kind of on that. Um but if you look at insurance and reinsurance companies broadly, they morph into asset managers in the limit, right? Like you all if you got hundreds

of billions of investable flow, you're going to buy airports, you're going to go buy sports teams, you're buying fixed income as as a you're you're you got equities. Yeah, and and so your LPs in the largest private equity funds, your LPs in the largest venture funds, the capital finds its way to proliferate right? That is out in the future. I'm just focused on making sure that we compound the thing now. Yeah. >> Got it. Got it. >> Congrats on the token launch. >> next? Yeah, just as we kind of come to a close, new funds, more scale, more deals.

>> Yeah, tons of integrations and partnerships are going to be launched over the next little while. But you know, core to all of this is again just putting on more business, getting deep more deeply integrated in insurance, getting getting the industry comfortable with scaling up with us. >> Love it. Yeah, man. I mean, I guess like from our end, I think for for what the investor class in at least in like the the the the Twitter world will want to see is how can we get like the RE data more public and available to be able to make a to be able to like have like a more of like this memetic property around the asset. Um right now

it's like I mean, maybe it's not a fault of yours. It's a little bit difficult to find and and and like we've talked about it quite a bit. You guys have posted about it. But yeah, some some of that public data I think would cuz like there's kind of this index being formed, right? And we're doing a lot of it. We're like, "Yo guys, like this is what you should look at because here's the financials. It just makes sense. Like these things are spitting cash, etc." And and I think you guys deserve to be in there, but it's hard to make the case with that public data. >> So yeah, we've got a metrics dashboard on on the RE site. So that that walks you through the exact composition of every dollar of our backing. It also gives you an exact view of every reinsurance treaty that we're party to.

I think I think we're going to transform that and work with partners who act as a kind of like while we have we have the network firm and other folks that folks that attest to this. You know, like for example Blockworks and others have products like this that generate dashboards and give a much more crystal clear kind of view into the the underlying. But yes, this is great to actually we're we're going to get there, yeah. >> I think there's a lot there. We'll get even more nuanced. >> Wow. Wow. Ari Ari protocol man. Khan, thank you so much man. I know you're busy. I know a little bit over but thanks for sharing that that dashboard as well. I feel silly for not have having found that.

>> All good. And hey guys, always a pleasure. Really appreciate having me. >> Absolutely. >> on the launch man. Best of luck in the coming months. I feel like so it's the it's the end of the beginning there, right? There's a lot more work to do. >> Yeah, just the start. Thanks guys. >> Cool. Thanks for joining us. >> All righty Khan. Cheers man. Best of luck. All righty. Big launch there for those guys. Honestly, huge win. Congrats. Let's give them some some love Alex. Khan came in billion dollar token launch FTV wise. They look great and yeah, I mean it's it's a burgeoning market Robin. Today's theme of the show just continues to come to fruition here as as far as tokens that are generating

cash flow cash flow returning it to holders and more. I want to go into screen share. We got some more segments to cover Rob. Quick break. What do you say? Quick break and then we jump back in there. >> Let's do it brother. >> All righty guys, we'll be right back. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

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>> Alrighty guys. I told my mom to bet the farm on SpaceX at 165. Am I going to get disowned? Bro. >> Is that you? >> Bro. >> Is that in the chat? >> That's uh in the chat from our guy Jingo. >> Shout out Jingo. SpaceX at 165. I thought it saw it down like 25% today. >> 25%? >> Something like that, yeah. I mean it got all the way up to 100 plus. >> Yikes, man. >> Guys, let's get into our daily equity segment as we talk about SpaceX. There is tons happening in the equities markets. People originally thought, "Hey, Kevin O'Leary was pretty hawkish."

They were expecting a major pullback, but overall, seems as if we've decorrelated the market from the forward guidance that we're accustomed to from the Fed. Let's get into that and more on this episode of Daily Equity. >> Let's do it. Companies are starting to pull back on AI spending after costs spiraled out of control. In a absolutely zoomer term, token maxing is no longer going to be the thing.

Chinese AI models have reportedly surpassed US models in weekly token consumption on open router. This is showing growing adoption of lower cost alternatives like our guy Tulip King tweeted, he was very excited to try the Chinese open source version of Fable 5. A lot of us when you use open claw, when you use any sort of prompt or LLM aggregator, you're selecting the cheaper model, the the Kimi 100 or the other the other couple options from China.

If you scroll down to the chart, you see that the top nine AI models on open router are being dominated by Chinese models. And Rob, I mean, you're obviously have experience with this as well. You've seen the responsiveness and the ease of use of these open source models. And they are far cheaper and almost as good as these frontier models. What do you think this means for CapEx, for the AI boom?

Is this kind of like the canary in the coal mine for the AI boom? >> I think this is why we're seeing the regulation so so so massive. Like I I think this is why we're seeing the regulation happening in the United States have this critical importance and why you see Anthropic and Open AI they're courting Trump at every turn. They're going to the G7 conference. The reason is because they want to outlaw open source AI. >> Really?

>> AI to sound so dangerous and so powerful that it can create bio weapons and it can it can have these cyber security attacks and attack national security infrastructure because they are trying to outlaw this so that it does not serve as a competitive pressure to their business. I think they're going to have a ton of difficulty outlawing this. Um, think you saw what happened when they tried to outlaw the internet. You see what happens when they try to outlaw crypto. They just aren't able to do it. Open source software is just a fundamental right that these companies have.

They do it, and there's nothing really that's going to stop them from doing it. So, I think that's a fundamentally unwinnable battle. The only attempt that these frontier model companies have uh is pushing so hard on this regulation that it slows down open source progress enough for the frontier models to continue to to extend their lead, but regulation is not going to extend to China, and that is the the Chinese >> primary source, yeah. >> vector of Yeah, it's the primary source of these open source models, and it's the primary vector that they have in pushing forward and potentially subverting these frontier model companies. So, >> cheaper inference, lower energy costs,

increasingly competitive model performance from China that's leading to just usage, just driving usage. Obviously, organizations who are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions of dollars a month, on token usage are looking to become just a bit more sensitive to AI spending at use as their their organizational usage scales. Um, maybe they're looking more at cost per token than they are for uh the most advanced reliable model. And so, I think guys like this is a bit of like the cat's out of the bag moment for um a lot of the AI boom, and look, I don't think this is going anywhere. I think despite near-term cost pressures, the trend is still showing one direction, up and higher. Massive

growth in AI usage is going to continue. I think this initial wave of like token maxing is going to have a bit of a pull down, a pull back on a lot of these kind of like AI adjacent or AI companies, but I mean, these IPOs are still ahead of us, guys. They're They're still coming, and I think that they're going to have a massive impact. So, it's entering a new phase. The AI world is entering a new world of a bit more cognitive understanding and market awareness as to what the expenditure from tokens and from usage. So, guys, that's been our daily equity today, powered by our friends at Cenari. Let's give them some love. Cenari is powering our daily equity segment, our daily show around what's happening in the equities market.

And we're going to roll into our screen share, look at some stats. Shocker, low float FTV, low float high FTV stock trends lower. Just like crypto, low float high FTV token, sure, but the high FTV is unable to sell currently for like 7 weeks. Yeah, so apparently SpaceX is not doing so hot if if if that's what the markets are showing. So, I'm glad I didn't buy. I almost FOMO'd in on that candle. Um it was looking pretty pretty juicy. But, yeah, it's down. I mean, it's down pretty good.

>> Yeah, I I would hesitate at buying this thing. I mean, it's just a ridiculous ridiculous valuation. One of the top five >> [laughter] >> One of the top five companies in the entire world. >> Yeah. >> It just doesn't quite have the earnings to show for it. It does It It did uh SpaceX had a partnership announcement today around a computing contract, I think to the tune of 6.3 billion dollars. >> I did see that, yeah. >> So, there is obviously activity happening here.

Um yeah, I think we're in for some volatility. I think the unlocks are going to start to hit. I think we're going to start to see attention shift from SpaceX to Anthropic and OpenAI, and that is where we're going to see more market attention focus. >> Honestly, I think it's good that it's pulling back because if it was ripping and everyone was just flowing into it, you would see that kind of like liquidity effect. Right? Where like, you know, in crypto one token's mooning, everyone sells all the other tokens to buy that one.

You're not really seeing that right now cuz I mean, it's obviously getting smoked. >> Right. I don't have a I mean, like I I just think that um traders are going to trade, some people are going to look at SpaceX, they're going to want a piece of the action, but I mean, this thing it's difficult to really tie together some sort of like actual thesis when it's still coming off of this initial IPO fervor. >> Dude, this thing is insane. This Micron stock unreal.

All right, let's flip it over back to our lovely trusted dashboard here. People are kind of getting a little bit worried about the low hyperliquid revenue last couple of days. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> 2 mil. >> on there? >> 800k yester or on Saturday. That doesn't look great for the boys. >> Mhm. What what >> Daily ETF volume dropping off a cliff significantly. >> And this is just a result of the lack of volatility in the market. >> I don't know. It's kind of just like seems like a a consolidation phase here. Man, I was looking at this. Can you see this fully?

>> Yeah. >> My goodness, man. >> What's happening? >> Tradexyz's dominance right now is just it's hard to even overstate. >> Yeah. >> It's just like unreal consistency. Look at open interest now back above 3 billion on non uh non-crypto assets on hyperliquid. >> Yep. >> Man, active traders just up into the right. New traders just it's just crazy, man. >> I mean, this is great to see. This is great to see. You do end up in sort of this uh this conversation that we've had several times on the show around, you know, what is the uh like at what point do you have this app

kind of reach enough exit velocity where it sort of exits the ecosystem and verticalizes on its own? >> Yeah. >> That would require fundamentally different business model, but I think it is worthwhile at least considering this because it is so systemic and so important to Hyperliquid. They drive so much of this volume that >> Yeah, you do not want to see Trade XYZ leave, do you? >> No, absolutely not. And so it's pretty important uh either to come up with or or even, you know, negotiate some greater like revenue share type of partnership between Hyperliquid and and Trade XYZ.

Uh I mean, we haven't really heard anything like that happen, but I'm sure there's a working relationship between the two. So, we don't know what the the the details are of that working relationship. But yeah, anytime you have 99% of your business coming from effectively one customer, they start to gain some leverage. And I think it's going to be important for Hyperliquid to generate a more distributed set of front ends that are driving some significant volume. >> This is interesting, too. There's a small discount on 21 Shares ETF and a small small premium on Bitwise and quite a large premium on Grayscale's ETF. It's interesting.

>> Hm. >> I wonder if there's [clears throat] a an arbitrage play in there somewhere. >> This is also super super bullish and what you want to see just continued growth against centralized exchanges for Hyperliquid. >> Yeah, and if we kind of get back to the thesis that we talked about earlier, I think that is where I mean, look, you got to think that there's some pretty good volume that we're going to see, some market share that we're going to see from Hyperliquid. I don't know how much I I mean, I think Andy Constantine's take in the beginning is is a fair one. I think it's pretty accurate. I think he has more of a read on the TradFi world. But I mean, 15% of Binance's volume, I think Hyperliquid stands to gain quite a bit

more than that. >> Yep. >> And so we can see a lot of these flows increase, especially if you have market share increasing as bull market animal spirits and volatility return. >> Yep. I agree. Man, we're just kind of in this consolidation guys. That's all we have to say on it. We're in this consolidation. And we ran it we had a big run. And you just got to chill. You just got to relax. The World Cup's on. Markets are trending. There's a lot to be There's a lot to pay attention to on hype. You just got to relax. You just got to chill. Let it flow. Let it vibe.

And I think that about wraps up our show today Rob. >> I think so. Guys, stay safe out there. Lay off the 3L's. >> No leverage, please, guys. >> Take it easy. >> Speedy. >> No leverage. >> Stay patient. We're in this apathetic. It might be kind of boring here for a little while. Don't force it. >> Don't force it. Yep. Don't let the bear market get to you guys, either. We're going to We're We're going to be here. Rain or shine, bull or bear, we're not going anywhere. You know where to find us tomorrow, 12:30 p.m. Eastern, Tokenization Tower, financial capital of the world. We're going to be here.

We have new thesis, Airdrop new thesis today. I think RE Protocol honestly should have got the bid on launch. Was sleeping on the wheel for that one. I just There's a simple thesis here. We're going to round it out a bit more for you guys too. Like it is just as simple, I think, as accumulating the good coins down here. I think it's I think it's just as simple. >> I think before we wrap up the show, I think during the show, we had a new Ethereum Foundation launch. >> Yes. >> ETH Labs, which is effectively people are naming it the ETH go up the number go up organization. Yes. There is this separation of power, this division of responsibilities, where the

real the the Ethereum Foundation, the EF, the one that has been here for forever and that, you know, a lot of people have recently left. That one is I want to call it like a philosophical organization. It's kind of just there to instill the Ethereum ethos. Feels like that one is the one full of rainbows and unicorns, you know, inshallah. And that one is the one maintaining this crops philosophy, censorship resistance, open source, privacy, security. They're trying to maintain that thesis and that ethos and everything that Ethereum does.

Several members of that organization have since left. And a lot of them have now started ETH Labs, the number go up, the the research and development company. Feels as if ETH Labs is going to be a lot more proactive in pushing for Ethereum infrastructure and tangible upgrades to the network. They're that that are driv- are are intentionally driving uh material impact to the token, the ETH asset. So, I think this is what a lot of people want.

>> Barnaby joined, Rob. A bunch of people joined. >> Barnaby and Skar >> Josh Rudolph joined. >> Um I saw several people funded this, Bitmain, Joe Lubin, um Charb Link all funded this entity. It's a nonprofit, so it's structured similar to the foundation. They're going to be using a lot of these proceeds to drive some of these uh some of these initiatives forward. I also think that they're going to be launching their own products and there's going to be some level of verticalization along with E Labs. I think they're going to be shipping both EIPs as well as tangible consumer-facing products and they're going to be intentionally, proactively

driving forward ETH asset. Um people have wanted this. Uh there's been a lot of negative rhetoric lot of negative rhetoric around the EF and its dysfunctionalness, disorganization and I think finally here we have what people have been asking for with respect to Ethereum. We have a coordinated coalition of people that care about the asset and are going to be putting their effort into this uh into ETH. And um I think it's a com- it's a competent group. These people have knowledge. They're born out of the EF and uh I think it's a a really, really promising path forward for the Ethereum ecosystem at large. So, I'm excited to see what happens here.

>> it. I love it, man. I love it. ETH is changing, man. Ethereum is changing. This whole landscape is, guys. And as I said, we're going to take you through it. We're going to We're going to rock with you. You're going to be a part of it. We're going to go higher. We're going to have some pullbacks, but higher lows. That's all that matters. Higher lows on that portfolio. It's all that matters. We're going to make sure of it. We're going to do the same. Higher lows. Higher lows. Higher lows. And then the time's going to come and we're going to hit a lot higher highs. A lot higher highs. Messi's having the game of his life right now. Wow.

Wow, ladies and gentlemen, that wraps us up. Happy Monday from Organization Towers. See you tomorrow, Tuesday 12:30 p.m. here from the financial capital of the world. Higher lows. Higher lows. That's what we need. Higher lows. >> [music] [music] [music] [music]

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>> Mhm.