🟣 LIVE From The Nest: X Cashtags Go Live, Allbirds Now an AI Company, Huge Lineup Today

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[music] [music] Heat. Heat. [music] [music] 17 floor. We'll see you around the timeline.

Feels good to be back. >> [music] >> I think the rollup is one of the most premier media [music] brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library every >> potentially multi-chain deployments. We are at the connect day [music] one here. I'm guessing from base. [music] [music] [music]

>> [music] [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music] >> JP Morgan, Black Rockck, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions.

It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. >> I'm bullish. >> HE SAID IT. HE FINALLY said it. So bullish. >> It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. [music] [music] >> [music]

>> Heat. Heat. [music] [music] >> [music] >> Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music]

>> Corola [music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the tigers. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> People from all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. [music] [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music]

>> Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. [music] What was the next? See you on the show. ization tower, ladies and gentlemen. Happy April 15th, Rob. Uranium's got me fired up, baby. It's the nest. We're broadcasting live from New York City here. Rob's down in Miami, broadcasting live from the financial capital of the world. You're watching the rollup.

Today's April 15th, Rob, and I'm in a party zone over here. I mean, come on, baby. Come on. What's What's the reason for all this party? Tax day. You're fired up. Uranium bail. Got my taxes done. Uncle Sam >> got my taxes done. Got my taxes done. I think that's something. Well, you know, let's give some love for everybody who paid their taxes today, man. [cheering] Those guys, shout out to those guys, man. Big big upstanding citizens of the United States of America here. Let's get into what we're doing today on the show, guys. And by the looks of those glasses, it must be It must be warm in New York City. Can we see those glasses again?

Why Why are we taking the glasses off? Let's leave those things on. Let's rock with the glasses. There we go. >> Yes, sir. >> Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Man, >> it's a beautiful day out here in the city. I got my glasses on. I got my Subway glasses on. You know what I mean? You stay stay in the shadows a little bit, ladies and gentlemen, here in the lovely big city of New York. Guys, shout out to Plume. Let's give them some love. powering the tokenization tower, the Nest. Their RWA Vault product is absolutely cooking. They're building the future of onchain asset management.

We're building the future of finance here on today's show. Stocks at all time highs, man. What's going on out there? >> It's uh it's SPX over 7,000 day and we are live from the tokenization tower. It's warm in New York City. It's warm in Miami. We got sunglasses on. We're gonna be chatting >> with uh some of the best in the business across finance, tech, and tokenization. >> I'm psyched. It's Wednesday. It's hump day. It's tax day. We got a lot to cover. We've got an epic show. Let's get right into it.

>> All righty, guys. We got markets and weather live from New York. Crunchy AI superchan CEO. Um, we also have a fundraising announcement from Bricks, uh, a Turkish LRA carry trade company building on Mega ETH. So, that should be interesting as well. >> Very cool. Very cool. Um, let's keep things rolling. Margus, weather. >> Yep. Before we do, let me tell you about Fracks. Building the infrastructure for digital money, open, stable, and borderless. For more information to start using the future of digital money, visit fracks.inance finance today, guys. It is warm. It is.

It is properly warm here in New York City. Shout out to everybody who's been waiting for spring. It's 82 degrees um 74 in this room. Rob, what's it like down there in Florida? >> Uh it is about uh very similar as the room. You know, it gets kind of warm inside of the Nest. You know, there's a lot of there's a lot of friction. There's a lot of traction. There's a lot of product market fit. There's a lot of warmth. There's uh there's similar warmth down here in Miami. We're getting uh pretty excited for Consensus Miami. We're finalizing our plans. Uh we are going to be uh in the warm weather, the entire crew. So, come find us. We're going to be uh we're going to be all over town.

>> Yeah, man. >> Uh what's going on with the markets today? Looks green in the equity verse. Shout out to Relay powering our weather in the markets today. Bitcoin 739, Ethereum 2337. Equities absolutely grinding higher. looking to put a daily close in alltime highs. Question is, what the hell is crypto doing? ETH 2338, Salana 84.2, chain link 9.2 back above that 9 level near hovering around that 1.4. My quant told me after I told him that I allocated into Canton. He told me why would I allocate 9 months before the winter was over? And I'm not sure what what he means by that, but I'm thinking the winter might be over. But we should

see the crypto lack of strength with stock coins stocks going alltime highs is not not great. Is it a not good man? >> You're counterrading your quant. >> So not sure what's going to happen here, ladies and gentlemen. But shout out to Zama who had a great run yesterday. What are they doing today? Uh they had a nice a nice jump yesterday. Pulled back a little bit but still holding up pretty strong there. uh is Zama power and confidential encrypted transfers and tokens on Ethereum mainet. Uh we had the quantum debate on here yesterday. People seem to people seem to like that one.

There was uh there was quite a bit of push back about whether or not Zcash is actually quantum resistant or not. Um unfortunately the comment section was not very nice to our fellow friend Alex. [laughter and clears throat] >> [gasps] >> Um, Annie, I want to hear more about your quant. I also want to talk more about this quantum thing because Bitcoin is actually starting to make some changes. I don't know if you saw, but there's a Bitcoin improvement protocol uh that's being floated around to freeze some of the wallets that are at risk of quantum hacks. >> Uh, this is pretty controversial.

>> Uh, we're going to get into it a little bit more in our news section. While we're here on the on the markets presented by Zama, you say the the quant thinks there's another nine months to the crypto winter. Is that right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What's the what's the logic behind this? >> I don't know. Perhaps just a typical fouryear cycle. But boy oh boy, if we all got bullish at this resistance, that is going to be a scary scary hours. We'll see. We'll see. Um, [snorts] it feels like all the fears of the war and fears of kind of all the macro stuff has subsided, which typically allows, you know, digital assets to be able to have some, you know, pick up some momentum, pick up some traction. Uh, but we'll see. We'll see kind of what the

what the lay of the land is in the next couple weeks. I mean, we're at a pivotal we are unironically at a lose this level and it's lights out point in the market. >> Yeah, we'll see. I think we I mean we're still in this chop area. I like to think that crypto winter is over. You're right. We'll we'll see. We're obviously trending a little bit higher, but it still feels like we could be in bouncy ball territory despite, you know, ETH Bitcoin is at its threemonth high. >> Yeah. >> Pretty incredible to see uh the altcoins, if you will, leading this rally. So, >> yeah, that's what the quantum guy Alex was saying. He was saying that he he allocated more to his Ethereum stack than his Bitcoin stack following the

just this latest quantum developments following Justin Drake's co-authoring of that Google piece. So >> I think that is relevant. I think also you know there could be uh asset managers allocators financial adviserss out there that they want exposure to the tokenization thesis. They want exposure to digital assets. They're just not quite sophisticated enough to go down the rabbit hole and understand, okay, do we do I want a do I want Morpho? How do they make these decisions? Look at the financials on block explorers. I I don't see them doing that. I see them >> maybe allocating to Ethereum as an index of DeFi and some of these some of these tokenization protocols.

>> Well, I thought something that the Zcash team had going for them was that they were going to be more quantum resistant than Bitcoin. uh according to Alex that is not the case and uh we should expect that any and all cryptographic systems to be going through a lift and a redo phase. I saw a tweet from Salsa Tequila, one of the OG 2017 traders. I I know you know him, Rob. I think you think he's washed. Um and in fact, you definitely told me he's >> I definitely told you that. I'm sorry.

No hate to him. He had a great run. I remember following him. I think he's very funny. I think he's got some great takes but >> I've just seen a few times his time his time horizon seem a little bit too short and uh I've just seen him be wrong a little a little bit too. >> Rob's a big zoom out guy. >> Rob's a big zoom out DCA guy. I'm a I'm a full stack into uranium, go underwater for two months straight guy with more than I know how to manage mentally and then be euphoric as I recoup the losses today on a 3.5% day up. All right, let's get off the markets. We got the institutional bull post, but before we do, I have to tell you about our premier AI partner. I mean, come on, let's give

it up for >> this is Near, the blockchain designed for AI native applications and autonomous agents. Start developing today at near.org, near.ai or near.com for some of your crosschain needs. do think it's relevant to mention that the AI category is quite a bit distinct from the tokenization category. Whereas I do think Ethereum kind of serves as this index for unsophisticated players looking to get exposure to tokenization. I do think that there's going to have a lot we're going to have a lot more market segmentation when it comes to AI and I think people are going to read up.

They're going to do their research. They're going to get sophisticated about the AI category. And I could see Mir, Zcash, I mentioned Akos, Fala, some of these coins that I think are gonna do particularly well because this is diametrically opposed to the tokenization thesis but >> completely different sector >> quite quite bullish. Yeah, I think it's going to be the follow on of like the fundamental rally, you know, build up a lot of this excitement for what's happening on the fundamental side and then realize that open AI anthropic large IPOs coming out. Okay, you want to be probably trading that narrative sometime, I don't know, sometime maybe late Q2 into Q3. As those IPOs start to

kind of linger closer on the horizon, I think the AI trade picks up. Yep. Um, what do we have here? The most underrated institutional bull. This feels like a new segment. I don't even think we have a sponsor for this segment yet. So, it feels as if something is brewing here. Andy, why don't you why don't you tell us what we have going on here? >> So, today, Bitwise announced the launch of the first ever staked avalanche ETF. Ticker is BAVA. Bitwise gets the most underrated institutional bull of the week award.

Let's give them some love. Shout out to Bitwise. Shout out to Teddy and Matt and the entire team. Pushing forward the first ever staked Avalanche ETF. They are staking Avalanche inhouse. They cited that Avalanche is the go-to de facto L1 platform for large institutions, Mastercard, City. They cited its market cap. They cited its traction and its TPS as well. And they put out today that the color is red. The future is a triangle. Bitwise is the institutional bull, the most underrated institutional bull of the week this week for launching this awesome product today. Shout out to Bitwise. Let's give them some love. These guys are crushing.

These guys are big bullish on vaults on everything in between. So, let's go Bitwise. Keep pushing this space. We're going to keep doing this. >> These guys have come out and they've said that vaults are ETFs 2.0. We've seen how massive financial institutions have been caught flatfooted to vaults. We understand Black Rockck is going deep into the tokenization thesis. Larry Frink is preaching this from the hills. I think Bitwise was one of the first to realize vaults are the natural next step to the tokenization thesis. Obviously, once all of these assets are tokenized, we will be looking for strategies to deploy these onchain. We'll be looking for passive strategies, active strategies, all of this flows into vaults. And I think Bitwise is a leader

in the vault category as they continue to develop this from the institutional perspective. That is our most underrated institutional bull of the week. Again, congratulations to Bitwise for winning the most underrated institutional bull of the week. Guys, let's move on into the news segments. We've got finally I think we found out what Nikita was teasing us about, which was cash. Nothing burger. >> No, >> I was nothing. >> I wanted a wallet. I wanted the ability to send uh tokens back and forth to people on Twitter. I wanted the ability to tip when I see a good post. I wanted the ability to financialize >> tweets. Z.

>> Yeah. >> Whatever you call them, Zs now that it's on X. I wanted an X stablecoin. I wanted an X token. >> Yeah. >> Cashtags. Who cares? Cashtags. >> Yeah. I mean, have you tried it? >> I have. It brings up the chart. >> Yeah. So, let's see what happens if you type in >> and only it's only on mobile at the moment. And so, you click on the hashtag, it brings up the chart and it brings up some related tweets. >> I think it's a nothing burger. I think uh you know, they made this higher. Look, they're going deeper into this direction. It's cool to see that they're thinking about this. Uh I'm excited about the possibilities that lie beyond hashtags, but at the moment, uh I was left uh underwhelmed. Were you >> I was I was like I said I was looking

for the reinvention of the Libra project on Twitter if anyone can pull it off. I was looking at Elon I think we could turn >> uh X into a massive financial platform uh for payments uh for tipping for social media financialization for prediction markets for all kinds of things. >> Um and so we got cash. >> Yeah. Well, the first step in our commitment to be the best destination. So, what X is collapsing content and kind of trading and speculation into one interface, which was a lot of the dream of many of these like social fi companies. And then I could see an easy future where they end up providing a

wallet inside of the app, which I think I saw a tweet about this. And then also doing they have an X card now. So Elon just debuted this X card. Um, so you can see where this is going. Like I I don't think your vision is that far off. Like I don't think you're you're that far off. I think I think it's probably closer than what you may think in terms of okay, this this wallet embedded experience is part of what's coming. I think there's a video here as well. And if we can just play it.

Let's see what uh Nikita's spun up here. [music] [music] >> [music] [music] >> Dude. >> All right. That's what we like to see.

>> That music is a vibe. Yo. Okay. So, they also put bonk on the damn on the freaking main announcement. They put bonk. No, there's no way Nikita put bonk on this thing, man. Yeah, bonk up there with Vanguard, Apple, and uh and Nike and Bitcoin, Tether. >> And what you'll notice here, so Nikita is an advisor to Salana and uh Salana is the top placement here on this announcement. One could argue, you know, something has to go up there.

>> Conspiracy theories. One could also argue that there's a chance that Salana is doing things more closely with Twitter. I think that's probably likely. >> Well, this is where I think it starts to get interesting as we think about what this could lead to. Now, I I do think it's uh relevant that in this announcement, they say cash tags are the first step in our commitment to be the best destination for the finance and crypto community. if this is truly the case and they continue to build out these products. Look, I was expecting the wallet today. I was expecting this to be the announcement for what a payment processor wallet type of uh offering could look like on Twitter. We

got cash tags. Maybe it's a step in the right direction. If they do end up building out wallets, tipping these sorts of things, you need a high throughput blockchain. There's no doubt about that. Um, I could see how the affiliation between Nikita Salana having the reputation as a fast chain, also the absolute chaos that occurs on Twitter, it's not quite the most institutional place. Obviously, it's got a little bit of everything on there. You've got some institutional conversation and dialogue happening on there, but Salana's been kind of the place where, look, they had meme coins, but you had the president of the United States launch their memecoin.

So, it's got sort of the, you know, the reflexivity and the dimension to be kind of anything that it needs to be. >> Yes. >> Uh, I could see how um to enable a tipping feature or to enable some fast payments back and forth between Twitter users um X leveraging Solana as a network. >> I mean, I mean, look, they have a pilot trading via Wealth Simple in Canada is what I'm reading here. Um there's a web Android and global roll out planned. I think it's very clear X is coming in to be a primary trading destination. And I think like, you know, when you see a thesis on X, right, or you see a thesis

on a social network, like you want to be able to go from like idea to execution in the same platform within a wallet that you have on that platform and do it like quickly and that like reduction of friction as I think is what X is getting at here. So congrats here. Congrats to Nikita, congrats to the X product team. I must say that these guys um they've done a lot in the last several months that Nikita's been a part of the team and um yeah definitely definitely a cool start here. So why don't we move on from this teasing that Nikita did to us last week and now we're back.

>> Speaking of teasing. >> Yeah, let's we can just we can just tease right through this one. I mean like >> once again this just comes up on our radar. We we >> to [laughter] to our to our researchers behind the scenes, we don't need Clarity Act until the Clarity Act is actually passed through the Senate through Congress on Trump's desk, signed off. I don't want to be talking about the Clarity Act until that happens. >> So, what So, we're it's completely off the Senate schedule next week. Um, we heard from the SBC chair, Tim Scott, that it was going to be this week and it's not. And so, yeah, I mean, if no markup is scheduled by April 20th to

25th, midterm politics could kill this. Uh, Tom Phyllis is expected to release the final draft this week, which would be bullish. I bet the market would react pretty positively to a final draft being released. Um >> I don't I don't think the market would care. >> You don't think you you think it's just all been too It's just been left, right, and center? >> It's been left, right, and center. It's been Trump taco outright and in the open. I I just don't think I think the market has just gotten uh fatigued with all the clarity headlines.

>> Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm kind of fatigued on it, too. >> Yeah. Um let's keep going. move on from the coin bureau >> um into something that I found, you know, that I thought was pretty was pretty interesting and pretty classic. Justin Sun Tron to deploy a postquantum signatures scheme on mainet to be the first major cha chain adopting this NIST standard. uh moving beyond the ECDSA scheme which is the basic scheme of signatures that most blockchains use in introducing quantum resistance schemes.

So when I had talked to Alex about this yesterday he framed this as a massive lift lift and redesign and then reimplement. Um and so yeah, I mean I don't think it's going to be as easy as hey guys like we have a quantum resistant um technology on chain now we're good don't have to do anything like from what I understand it's going to require every single user on on these chains to uh basically move their move their tokens into a the new quantum resistant you know ledger or account and that's what I was actually trying to say about salsa is is he was If you think about it, if you buy one Bitcoin today, you get one Bitcoin plus one quantum

resistant Bitcoin in the future. If you know, you know, >> perhaps you get one quantum resistant Tron in the future as well. >> Did you um did you talk to Andrew about uh or Alex about the this Tron NIST standard specifically? No, >> I didn't see this. I didn't see this until today. >> Yeah, I don't think this came out until today. I I think this is going to backfire on Tron. I think uh Justin Sun is trying to roll this out so that he can uh uh shed some light onto Tron as a quantum resistant protocol course and and try to catch a bid as Quantum is uh taking more and more share of the narrative these days. Um

>> I don't think Justin Sun could tell you the first thing about NIST standard postquantum signatures. I don't think he's got a clue what that even means, let alone what the implementation plan could be. I think this thing is far more complex than Justin can wrap his head around. I think he's probably got some smart people at his disposal that are working on this. Uh but I just don't think that Justin Sun really understands what goes into this sort of lift as you were saying and I think this is going to backfire. >> Yeah. I mean you don't just like like I said this is a a lift a relift a redesign and a re-implementation process even if quantum is years away I mean obviously chains are now battling for

you know futureproofing their architecture for whatever reason could becoming a new battleground for credibility or fugazi you think fugazi I think it's a narrative thing as well let's move on from tron I think we have an interesting interesting clip next from deli All right. [snorts] Private AI versus public markets. Private rounds are based on future growth. Once you go public, it's a very different mindset. It's almost like guilty until proven innocent. Let's hear what uh Jose has to say here about AI and growth of private >> 5 trillion, right? And it does like 200 billion in revenue. It's kind of silly.

Literally trading on 100x revenue, but a lot of the growth rounds for for like private market growth rounds are pricing in these these multiples. But but yeah, interesting. It's like way more expensive than anthropic or OpenAI on a on a revenue multiples basis. So yeah, I don't know. >> No, I agree. I think public markets are the in some ways like sometimes the ultimate like arbiter of like it seems like public markets when it comes to AI are very is very focused on asking questions around like ROI and like show me the money today in a sense whereas a lot of these private rounds are based on like to your point Z like future growth and like growing into these valuations which again if you looked at open AAI 2 or three years ago a lot of people would

have said it never would have gotten to maybe even like 20 or 25 billion in in ARR, right? So, it's it's a little bit more of um like subjectivity, I guess you'd say, or like you can't really plug in a DCF, like your models are only as good as your assumptions. Whereas, once you go public, public market investors and institutions, like it's a very different mindset. It's kind of almost like guilty until proven innocent right now. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I agree. I mean, I think there is the absolute mega mega FOMO happening in the private rounds. I saw a Instagram story screenshot yesterday from a guy saying he has $150 million liquid cash wanting to buy

anthropic with a single layer SPV was asking for 700 to 720 billion valuation um and just put it out in in in the public. So like there is that type of demand happening in the private sector. The question does become then when anthropic when open goes public right like what is the what is that demand from the investor class going to look like? Is this just a yo this thing's going to easily launch over a trillion dollar valuation? I want to be in in the hundreds of billions and that's gonna happen and that's the kind of trade I'm trying to make or I don't know like I just I don't believe there's a belief

that these will continue to grow in terms of revenue. Uh the capex will continue to be deployed. There's also um S&P relaxed one of its rules in terms of how long a stock has to be public before it's included in the indicy. >> And so there's so much passive capital allocation into some of these larger growth uh you know the largest market caps the MAG7s the S&Ps uh I believe the S&P did this for SpaceX which is obviously another massive private company looking at you know a valuation close to a trillion if not much higher.

um and are going to be included in these indices. It's just a matter of time. So, probably much much sooner than we might think. >> There's so much passive capital that ends up allocating into this. Even if it's just not, you know, someone who thinks, oh, I'm going to go buy SpaceX or or Anthropic, which I think there are plenty of Robin Hood traders that are looking to just direct own these stocks. There's so much there's so much capital in these indices that I think we'll just passively allocate there and they're just they're almost price insensitive. they they almost just don't care because they're just going to allocate to the largest companies by market cap.

>> And so yeah, if if there's a belief that um you know there's there's large passive retail capital from you know pension funds and and retirement funds and financial advisors on the other side of these public IPOs. Yeah. uh then yeah you know you get in uh at a valuation that you think gives you some relative value to the IPO and then I think anthropic open AI SpaceX there's a whole swath I mean Kraken is included in that too I >> am a little bit >> more apprehensive as to what those IPOs that second wave and beyond what happens to those but I do think >> not Kraken specifically I think Kraken could do well I mean they've gotten a lot of interest as of late but there's

there's a whole swath of them that are going to tail the IPOs from OpenAI and Anthropic and SpaceX because that's so much new capital coming onto the market. I think there will be some market fatigue after those initial IPOs. >> Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. I mean AI is just not one market right now, right? Like it's split. It's it's the public side and the private side. And this is just this growing gap. like the success of these IPOs is going to be very very telling as to what the future is of all of the other AI companies that you're talking about, right? Like the success of these two companies in the public markets is going to dictate a lot

of what the rest of the funding in SF looks like, the rest of those launches. Like, it's going to be very, very, very telling. And again, like we said earlier in the show, I think this is probably going to end up leading to some sort of like AI narrative cycle that will come on chain or just at least in the crypto markets near um TA um fall look, Akos, any of the good subnetss um these types of things. I I think um I think that's right and I think there will be spillover because as more retail investors start to accumulate more of these AI tickers that will start to spill over. People will look be looking for beta on anthropic because they see

it's been you know the whole low low float high FDV has now made its way into the equities markets and so you know that's going to be unleashed. People are going to be looking for alternatives. Um, I also think it might be worthwhile to just explain like >> we had people reach out to us about Anthropic and Xi. >> Dude, I missed Anthropic at $380 billion valuation through some crazy random SPV completely faded it. I was like, my 20K going into anthropic at 380 billion is going to do is going to do nothing.

Like, why am I going to do this? let alone I got to go through like one SPV that owns another one that owns some equity and it's like this uh this kind of syndicate round and like I'm signing this agreement with this syndicate that's doing this SPV. So it's like three layers $380 billion valuation 20K check. I was like dude this is not >> and then I feel like I feel like I messed up. I feel like >> well the same thing the same thing happened with XAI. Um yeah >> or it was either XAI or Grock. I get the two confused but ultimately you know they're looking for secondary liquidity because every time they raise one of these new rounds they have to f they

have to source you know the the the buyer and and employees get all of this exit liquidity. And so I think this is sort of a counterpoint to you know the passive capital allocation into these stocks once they do IPO. The fact is that, you know, the private markets have been accessible by people that >> previously like wouldn't have had access. >> I would not have gotten that deal. >> No, they they've they these companies through their SPVS that are looking to syndicate these rounds are going far and wide to source liquidity. And so people like that would have potentially been buyers on the public market may have already gotten exposure in the private markets. And so you're taking that liquidity into the private markets.

There might be less buyers on the market once the thing does go public. So these are the two forces that I think people are dealing with. You know, I is that passive capital allocation enough or did so much of that get sucked into the private markets that there's not much there left? >> Yeah. All right, let's move on from Deli. Shout out to those guys doing a great show as always. Um, so this this guy will he runs Gemini's uh fund basically. I think they're VC and he's talking about Apple's smart glasses being eyes and ears for AI with a potential re reveal this year.

Definitely adoption by 2027. Cameras, mics powered by Siri, Apple intelligence. So we got Mark German here from Bloomberg. He's gonna, you know, show us with his nice Kobe jersey in the back what he means here. These are the meta rayband display glasses. So these have a little heads-up display in them. Apples won't, like you said, display free. The idea is that this is the eyes and ears for AI and the cloud for Siri and Apple intelligence. Uh these will rely heavily on the new Siri coming in iOS uh 27 later this year. These will probably go on sale next year. These are the Meta Rayban display glasses. So these have a little

heads up display in them. Apple's one. >> We're going to be living in a world where you are being surveiled by anybody at any time. And it's all going into the cloud. It's going into Elon's Altman's AMO days and um the CEO of Apple's Tim Cook. >> Tim Cook. Yeah. >> Um hands. So >> I, you know, people are the like the the Meta Ray-B bands have really taken off in popularity. I see people actually wearing them >> wearing them with like the little lights on them.

>> Yeah. And I remember the first time I saw them was uh in Istanbul. I think we were at dinner with uh the Mantra CEO Kenny. >> No, no, no. Manta. Kenny. >> Manta. Yes. Mant not Kenny. I remember that. >> And uh yeah, I mean he it was it was almost incredible. It was like, "Wait, you could." And they did not stick out. And you know, they were >> they looked fully normal. >> They looked fully normal. They looked like regular glasses. And and he didn't have them on, I don't believe, cuz they were prescription just wearing them. But they could have very well been on. These things are starting to just blend into society. Um people are wearing them on the street. They're doing like liveaction vlog type of, you know, content on the road. Uh the the most recent ones, I don't know if you've seen

these, these guys are speedrunning Scientology with the Rayban Metazon. And so they're going into like a Scientology church and they're running as far as they can through the Scientology building to like expose what's happening behind the scenes with the Ray-B band meadow ones. >> We're going to start to see a lot more of this type of content where people are just getting reactions from things on the street. Uh the difference is obviously, you know, that can just capture video. You can go upload that. You can connect it to some of your socials on on Instagram meta, these sorts of things. The connection with AI is one step deeper. So once you have this new and improved Siri, which I've been hearing a lot about, you have the ability to start training your own AI.

You have Siri, it's trained to you. It's trained to your tendencies and it can start to make decisions based on what you're seeing. Doesn't have that display, but obviously you can talk to it. You can have an earpiece in. You can be communicating with it. And so you're effectively the eyes and ears of Siri. >> Siri never had eyes before. It is now going to have a visual interface into the real world and it's going to have so much more data that it can use to factor into its decisions. I'm excited for Siri to get better. I tend to be optimistic about this, but it's difficult to really know what this is going to look like before it comes out. Um I I do think that this is going to end up uh building

a lot more possibilities of what we can potentially use in our daily lives. It's not just going to be LLMs anymore. I'm excited for what we can do agentically once the data becomes available to these models. >> Yeah. So, this is like the this is the the transition from the digital world to the physical world. I think a lot of this um training data that that these glasses are going to provide to the uh companies that are running the models underneath is going to also probably be used for robots.

>> Yeah. >> Um I think that like a lot of like the spatial spatial training data is going to be used for robots. Yeah. And like it'll be a training use case to get the kind of clankiness out of the robots. >> I uh I didn't mention when I was talking about Akos and Fala sort of falling into this AI categorical you know trend. I didn't mention the other one that you know we've had on the show multiple times. Arthur Hayes and Malstrom has has invested into but on this robots uh narrative Ayuki is the one that comes to mind.

>> It it's >> and virtuals. We have virtuals on today >> and we've got virtuals on today and so you know there is crossover into digital assets especially you know when you really start to think about the machine economy like it's not just software like there's also robots that will be conducting parts of commerce um I I do think that you know decentralized compute decentralized payment systems are going to become increasingly important is one that I've held on to for a little while and I think can capture some upside >> really you still hold auki >> I do low market cap I'm Just again, just staying patient. Zoom out. Uh, who knows when this thing is going to is going to really take off, but I've got uh I've got a bit a small bag.

>> Nice. All right, let's move on into uh our our news from Securize Brett Red Fern XC on why Wall Street is no longer watching from the sidelines on one of our favorite shows, Crypto in America. Uh Brett just joined as the president of securityize and will be leading the efforts there. Let's play this clip and see what >> biggest opportunity today that's ahead for us. Well, um, again, thank you for having me and I I love this last discussion because it's really interesting to see the way that traditional financial market participants are really starting to embrace this space. and having been

involved in these discussions for several years, you know, while at the SEC, certainly while at Coinbase, and then in the last several years running my own financial advisory practice, you go out and talk to firms and there was a period of time when it it just felt like, you know, the bulge bracket banks, a lot of traditional finance, they were very skeptical. Um, you know, there was there was a lot of hesitancy about diving in. There was interest in having like innovation areas explore things, but, you know, they weren't really diving in. And then, you know, a couple years passed and then you got to a place where they were, you know, wow, we're really interested. We need to learn more. We need to get smarter about it.

And it feels to me like, you know, in the last year, you know, certainly since the the change in administration, increasingly, it's like, okay, we got to get moving. We're behind. We want to catch up. We want to do something. We want to, you know, make projects happen. And so, that tone has changed a lot. So I think that traditional financial market services firms generally are are gung-ho to you know stop talking, stop thinking and start doing and really start to make some projects happen. >> Yeah. Biggest >> I mean that's what we've been calling it, right, Rob? It's institutional FOMO.

>> It's institutional FOMO. It's not just R&D and narrative theater. It's it's actually, you know, boots on the ground rolling out products. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Look, >> and they're doing it fast. >> Yeah. I I also think it's important to just recognize the the brain drain, but like the brain draining into a positive uh meaning that a lot of these uh you know, Brett uh Redern who's, you know, been at the SEC and we had Caroline Fam was at the CFTC. These guys are moving into private companies that are now building the infrastructure that is going to underpin, you know, this entire industry. So I think people with tons of industry expertise moving into positions that are now focused on tokenization,

>> they speak the language, you know, like they know the vernacular. They know how to communicate with these people and ultimately navigate the bureaucracy, the blob. They know how to they know how to cut through the fat and actually get to a place where they can get things done. >> Yeah, Brett does not speak any uh crypto Twitter jargon. I'll tell you that. I think he's got like 3K followers, but that doesn't even matter to the guy cuz I bet >> bet bet the guy's getting securitized exactly where they need to be. >> He's got a rolodex, you know. He sends him an email. He calls him up on the phone. He says, "Hey, what do we got to do here, there, and everywhere?" Like they they just go direct to the people because he's probably worked with the people at the SEC. We know Securitize

has a close relationship, you know, with the SEC. Um given that, you know, they're they're a digital transfer agent. They've been able to get some of these licenses. Yeah. So yeah, big big shout out to those guys. Obviously leading the tokenization wave. >> Amazing. All right, guys. Let's keep moving here into the Bitcoin archive. >> Uh yes. So here I think Andy's going to jump and uh corral our first guest in the tokenization tower. But this is uh something that is a developing story.

Jameson Loop uh and other Bitcoin developers proposed BIP 361 to freeze quantum vulnerable wallets. I mean this is a a huge you know um philosophical debate here. Uh it's a matter of you know will uh there be a existential risk to coins that are in the Bitcoin uh complex on the Bitcoin network. What are we gonna do about them? Quantum is a looming threat. We know that this is coming right around the corner. It's just a matter of years and it takes a long time to instantiate any changes into the Bitcoin protocol. So, it's time right now to start thinking about this and we know that it's going to be

difficult. And so, I understand BIP 361 as a way in which uh this is almost like an intermediate solution. It's not going to make all of the quantum uh uh vulnerable coins on the network secure, but what it's going to do is it's going to freeze the coins uh before quantum computers can steal them. Uh this is still there's still a lot to develop here. You know, once they're frozen, can they be unfrozen?

We're not sure. Um, obviously this would protect against bad actors that are looking to steal other people's coins. For so long, Bitcoin has been immutable. We haven't seen any major changes. This would be a major major impact. I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin um if we see people move out of Bitcoin while they have the opportunity to do so, go into something more quantum secure, maybe ETH, maybe Zcash. You know, obviously over the last day or so, we've heard Zcash might not be as quantum secure as we previously thought, but transition into something that could be more secure. Let Bitcoin make this transition and then go back into Bitcoin once it has proven that it is safe on the other side of Qday. I could see that

being a transitionary story uh here. Um but it remains to be seen. We're we're we're honestly still just watching this play out in real time. Uh the reality is that there's $74 billion of uh quantum uh vulnerable wallets and we need to do something about them. If we aren't going to get full quantum resistance, then we need to do something to protect against these coins falling into the hands of bad actors. I do think that this is a step in the right direction. Man, who knows if Satoshi's ever going to move his coins. It feels like now would be the time. We'll see, guys. We're gonna be right back. Just a very, very short standby break. Uh, while we get set up

in the tokenization tower with our first guest, uh, we're going to be bringing you guys tons more content here coming up. It's Jean, founder of Crunch Dow. We're going to be chatting about AI. Guys, don't go anywhere. Be right back. Going 70 7th floor.

All right, ladies and gentlemen, we got Jean Herell here, the founder of Crunch Down the Tower. Welcome to Tokenization Tower, man. I like the sports coat, man. Thanks for >> Thanks for bringing it out. >> Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here, man. Very nice office, by the way. Nice view. >> Thank you, man. Thank you. We're here to talk about AI and the uh decentralized AI vision you guys are building. I crunched out. You guys have 11,000 quants PhDs building out this intelligence layer. Gene, how did you how did you get started with Crunch? How did you find yourself here? I know that you have a extensive history as well.

You guys are building this on on Salana. You have backing from Galaxy and some other large VCs. How did Crunch Out come about? >> Yeah, that's a good question, man. It actually uh come to me as I was trying to build um um a model for a long shot hedge fund back then. Um and I kind of faced my own limitation back then. You know, it's very hard. You face a lot of noise. Uh you have the other guys on the other side of the street, right? You have millennium 72, two sigas, you know, people that can afford the million dollar quants, uh you know, every six months, you know, and put them out of the market for two years when they are in garden leave. So you're facing this kind of mathematical power. And so you have to fight for alpha. You have to

fight for information coefficient, for information ratio. And that's extremely hard. And so I had a background in AI. So I was you know AI native. I was using air take 3080 3090s back then like already like five uh to 10 years ago. And uh when I was you know kind of struggling [snorts] in building these models because there were no signal everything was already utilized uh basically by the market price were hyper efficient right and that's really what we see and so I ended up you know kind of putting a bit of money aside trying to like you know pay people on internet to come and try to help me you know and and it actually works pretty well. I got inspired by a very interesting uh phone.

I think the really first crypto project uh uh uh crypto AI project to me was Numera back then. So, Numera is a headphone controlled by thousands of quant all over the planet and I was struggling on my own phone and so I decided to kind of do the same thing and it just took off from there and I realized that I better focus on the protocol and focusing on the model because I was gaining much more interesting models and whatever I was able to actually produce and that's how the crunch story started. Yeah, I mean one of the things that I'm currently super excited about is this idea that today's expensive models, the Claude Opus 4.6, the Chat GPT codeex 5.3s are the futures cheap models, right? Such

that the intelligence acceleration is just extremely quick. Um because you know in the past we've we we've used like haiku and sonnet and these types of older claw models for example >> and they required a little you know quite a bit of back and forth to really get to the crux of what you wanted. Now with opus for example you get a lot more of that instant uh response that you were really kind of after like that's what you wanted that was the response that you wanted the level of intelligence is really getting there. How how do you think about this kind of uh transition as the models keep getting better? I've seen different projections.

You guys are obviously kind of working on this collective layer of intelligence. From your you know perspective, what is the what is this model improvement timeline look like realistically? How how quickly are we going to see more and more development such that the current iterations of AI models being replaced by far far smarter ones in the in the near future. What's that timeline? >> I mean that's a good question. Um it's moving extremely fast. It's completely crazy. But at the same times when you talk to industries and and you know real world application you just realize that this model are very generic, right?

they're not connected to the knowledge or the specific knowledge of a specific business, right? So you hear a lot of people actually doing the finetuning of this model on the knowledge base of that companies and etc. Uh but you know this level of intelligence whatever it is you know whatever the model is is the new benchmark. So when you work against in competitive framework uh other entities that try to be as intelligent as you to extract information whether from the market or in biomedical spaces. um this is the minimum level of intelligence.

it's not sufficient in order to really perform on this market because in finance for example the price are the perfect reflect of all the available information right so it's huge you know it's it's very very efficient systems >> uh and and and if you want to be more intelligent you know you you have to do either an orthogonal use of this particular tool or add something on top and this is what crunch is bringing and this is what I think the human will always bring on top of models right you have this model is extremely powerful um for sure, but uh the combination of the human and these models will always overperform. And so that's really what crunch is about, right? We try to secure uh and decentralized access to uh these

humans that are capable of making this model better. So it's a very interesting question because how do we make this model better? there is more compute obviously more data or new architectures and that's more or less what crunch is working on when we work with a hedge fund or something not necessarily on LLM sometime it's more it's in classifier hunker computer visions you know DNA algorithm everything that is you know moving our day-to-day life but we don't even realize anymore and so this is where the arch architectural change and the innovation on the model side had a lot of value that's why you see people being recruited in big tech company for 100 million dollar right is that >> my point is whoever can create intelligence above that benchmark whatever it is is much more valuable you

know than in the past >> and so that's also why we see people having you know billion dollar companies with a single employees and etc can you create intelligence above that benchmark because the benchmark is already used by these institutions right they have hundreds of researcher they're basically using NLP and and LLM for more than 10 years you know you have at Renaissance and these kind of fond of >> yeah they use this technology for like 10 20 years in the 90s they already had this kind of model so so they are far far ahead that's that's just the benchmark so us as a retail now we can access this technologies and we like okay that's amazing I feel extremely smart on the market etc but >> you need to bring something unique in the usage of it >> you know it won't do the job for you you

need to bring that knowledge >> so one of the things on that front with regards to the usage and this acceleration that we're seeing is we've seen um this claude mythos model uh come out or kind of be preemptively leaked prior to it, you know, supposedly supposed to being out there. And it's really causing a concern in the AI community around uh national security. Even uh you know, Coinbase as of yesterday was in deep talks with Claude to prevent something like a Mythos from uh infiltrating its internal security processes and such. You know, I'm curious like like what is your take on this Clawude mythos situation? Is this

something that if let out into the wild, there are very very consequential circumstances that could come of it that are, you know, catastrophic. Is it overblown? What is your honest blunt take on Claude and this mythos kind of super intelligence that we've been hearing about? >> Yeah, I think it's a bit overblown. is just dead. I mean it's it's a massive improvement. It's very I mean it's it's it's brilliant work but I think it's a bit overblown but uh these models are like gradually getting better right so we if we had mess like straight out of the box like uh two years ago that would have been a complete different story but I think now people are kind of conscious of potential security breach you know and how to use properly this kind of

tools and uh but obviously I mean internet have been scanned by people that are that were trying to find to find like like a way to u get into your systems for like years if decades right people were just spending their time I don't know if you already had a form online and how many submission you get on that that completely random yeah >> you just realize how much time like your website is being scrolled to look into your API and etc >> these systems are just becoming more efficient like finding you know this kind of cyber security threat is to a whole new level now for sure >> yeah yeah so not worried about this kind of like overarching super intelligence that's going to you know nuke a lot of the security systems just kind of

something that needs to be contained? Like is it a is it a containment issue or is it a safety issue of like actually having guard rails on something you know so powerful such that some of the world's leaders are even worried about I mean I mean Trump came out today I think and said okay claude mythos is not a national security problem but the fact that he even has to like make that statement shows you that there's something happening here is it a containment issue what is the issue at hand here.

>> It's a good question. Um, and I think, uh, you know, you should ask the question to Trump and why did he had to actually come, you know, forward with this statement. I think I think yes, it's it's also a lot of marketing, right? There's a lot of capex being involved in this kind of operation and things. So, obviously, they try to make as much noise as possible technologies, but it's it's it is what it is. And I think that in three weeks to a month, we will talk about a new model, you know, and it will be another threat and we will have already contained this one. It's just a matter of being conscious that these tools out there and people are using it. So yeah, we must be aware of it.

>> Yeah. So let's talk about kind of the the way that some of these institutions or financial firms that you guys are helping and collaborating with are actually using LLM and intelligence like can you give us the high level of how finance is being rearchitected right now with the use of LLMs? What is like the is it trading strategies? Is it research? Is it decision making? Like what are you seeing as the strongest point of your product and your offering to these firms? What are they getting the most out of that you guys are doing?

>> Yeah. Well, so all the LLMs that you can find out there are basically accessible for them. Uh they have almost unlimited amount of resources to invest in tools that make them more intelligent. Right. Yeah. >> It's more of an AI use case. So um these funds are actually very difficult to disrupt because it's a um you know winner takes all kind of industry right so people that have been in this industry and and and managing firm that are in this industry for decades 20 years you know that that have amazing track records are going to stay there and still there uh they already been using this technology for a while as soon as the first transformer paper was out you already had hundreds of qu in each of these investment firm that were already implementing this tool so it's it's more of a I think of an

architectural How do you architect a phone uh that will be impacted by LLM and you know the back office front office kind of um you know kind of operation. How do you look through and structure data and try to create a new kind of information or maybe make this function kind of autonomous? That's what's happening. It's more of an architectural change than an alpha race, you know, except for um a couple of phone that started, you know, from the get-go with this resoning. You remember this, forgot his name, um from this researcher from OpenI that started this two billion phone from day one at 21 years old coming with this complete new architectures and way to do things.

>> Uh but I think I mean >> this business as is about talent. It's always been about talent. It's about, you know, asset managers and and qu are people that are that can look at a problem, solve it in a in a different way, in novel way and find information that other people cannot find within the market and and use that information to uh you know uh to make money on public market and so that's uh that's a very difficult endeavor and it's actually a lot about talent. So we said what is what are the LLM bringing? I think they're bringing the kind of um um common ground, right? This is the benchmark. That's why we call it a benchmark. Everybody has this level of intelligence. So this level of intelligence is basically almost

worthless. >> It's worth thinking zero because you can access it with, >> you know, I mean just the cost of the GPUs but >> um but anything above that that's really what these phones are after when they work with crunch. So they're like okay we have this very specific uh you know use case inside the phone. Let's talk about structural break analytics. you know how do you look at time series and try to find when time series are changing regime >> that's the kind of thing they look at can we find a causal relationship and build graph using causal theory uh uh into financial data can we you know rank assets in a relative matter in a better way and all this is like very statistic um you know very deep stats

>> and when you talk to these guys actually I was pretty surprised because you have discussion with them and they're like yeah We don't use LM that much. I mean maybe to for the database in the back. Okay, they're much more into deeper stats that are above this benchmark. >> So it's just so there's the basic benchmark of like any LLM can do this work and then there's this like step above of intelligence required to basically get alpha in a given market or in a >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Or what kind of use you can do of these LLMs in order to find alpha. But like I told you like these texts are already in use. So we're just amazed as a retail to be able to write you know complex mathematical function without even understanding what we're doing or being

able to like look at social sentiments with a simple prompt you know but all the things are existing since the 2000. It's just much easier to implement. So for anyone that has very good idea >> you get a chance to make an orthogonal when I say orthogonal means original usage yeah >> of that tech that nobody thought about before you and this is where you find alpha but we also work in you know in the biomedical space now this they kind of face the same revolution in the biomedical space where uh computational methods are are moving extremely fast and there is a lot of lowhanging fruit now >> uh that machine learning engineer and data scientists can unlock in order to make you know biomedical research move

faster. So our second biggest customer uh I mean at least vertical is in the biomedical research space with the broad institute in Harvard and MIT for example we've been doing computer vision on human cells in order to to improve the detection of specific type of cancer. >> Yeah. or we do DNA perturbation in order to predict you know what will be the response of your metabolism to a specific DNA changes in order to eradicate obesity you know there is this massive questions that the LLM like won't solve maybe a usage of the LLM will solve so when you put very smart people that are scientists mathematician ML engineers uh and you put a big you know a big prize a big bunty because

this is how we work on the platform then you attract these very smart people the same way you attract the cyber security engineer and [clears throat] the hackers, >> right? Nobody's hiring a hacker anymore, right? You you basically >> they don't want to work for you. You put a bunty on the plat on, you know, on your platform, a million dollar bunty to break into uh you know this this iPhone for example, and you will attract this guy. It's pretty much the same thing on a platform. We have this customer that are looking for improvement. >> Yeah. of uh intelligence on a specific subject and we have a big bounty on the platform and thousands of people start crunching you know crunching the numbers in order to improve whatever uh you know this lab is already doing and of course they benchmark the human against LM

right that that's that's what they do this is this is the benchmark but LM are still far behind the researchers do >> so the way that crunch is kind of set up it almost reminds me of like the subnetss within bit sensor and in a way, right? Like you've got these subnets competing to get tow emissions because they want to, you know, be had this ability to be able to like scale their operation. So they go out and they try to kind of like compete in terms of the best possible product or or intelligence to get that. But that over the last couple weeks has faced a lot of push back. We had quite a few, you know, bit tensor bulls on the show in the weeks leading up to Templar as a subnet 3 uh effectively announcing their departure

from the Bit Tensor ecosystem, stating that there was a lot of fugazi in the state of the decentralized uh way that they were running their operation. stating that the founder const pretty much had the ultimate say over a lot of the operations that the decentralized nature of the industry wasn't exactly what they were after. It wasn't what it was, you know, sold out to be. And so I I'm just curious like where where you see that going? Like are you do you feel that that this subnet 3 leaving Bitensor is a massive unreoverable blow for BitSensor? How do you kind of think about what happened there as a as a result of the mechanism

design? What does that mean for Bitensor going forward? And then how can you guys avoid that with crunch? >> So for sure it isn't uh anarable uh issue for sure. And there's already like this this um the infrastructure behind covenants. of the 73 billion uh parameter models that uh Templar the Templar subnet SN3 was running um is basically open source. So it's already being forked and relaunched on Bitenso and I think you're going to have a much bigger model coming in the you know in the coming months. So it's it's already you know uh back on track but what you mentioned about the issue in the mechanic and the design is that there is a lot of talent a lot of talent within

benzo and there is basically this way for them to to leave at the moment and there is I think uh the retention is is maybe the issue here but the tech that has been created uh out of uh the work that Templar was doing is already probably going to be back on you know on Bensor in a coming in a coming week. So it's recuperable of course regarding the decentralization um and you know it's kind of a it's kind of a pass toward decentralization in this case you know there is there is protocols that go out in a very cyberpunk kind of way like Bitcoin just go out there is no funer there is you don't know anything you know it's it's it's very cyberpunk visions and kind of the true original vision yeah

>> the more modern project comes with founders you know and often >> no matter how the centralizes a protocol um the founder will have kind of an influence on it. I mean there is maybe a thousand people that try to fork Ethereum you know and nobody follow these forks because when Vitalik is saying something people say oh Vitalik has a track record of being right for the last 20 years so for the last 10 years sorry so we we are like following the phone that's why what is so brilliant about not having a funer you know on Bitcoin is that you also remove this the central the centralization of having this influential figures on top of a protocol so that's unfortunately Definitely something that's very hard to fix. I mean except this con disappear and

decide to not give any news anymore to anyone that will always exist I think because he is the founder. Now how to avoid that? Um I think um apart from disappearing and having no funer on top of a protocol I think it's just like iterating like one step at a time and making sure you have you listen to the to the to the builder on the protocol and make sure they have the things to actually build. Um but yeah in a decentralized protocol where you have you know tokens in the case of bensoro for every sub project um um you know I know they are coming with some update and so I'm like eager to see that um in the case of crunch we don't have this sub world you know it's more like we have a customer came in customer want to solve a problem he post a bunty this

boot is being distributed to the people that fix it >> and so it's it's much much simpler let's say we don't have this like second layer Yeah. >> Uh uh that as a subnet. So it's much it's much easier and also we we also uh coordinate talent only like we don't do compute, we don't do data etc. Crunch is really focused on the human part >> and try to secure >> and decentralize and access to these minds that are extremely hard to hire and and and that can bring that level of intelligence above benchmark.

>> Yeah. >> This is this this is what crunch is about. It's it's and this is why we also end up mining on Benso. You know we have >> centralized customers that are institutions, sovereigns, etc. But we have decentralized customer that are subnet right where we can plug you know the intelligence of the cruncher uh the collective intelligence of the cruncher and try to improve what the subnet is doing which we get uh you know paid in subnet token for doing so. So >> yeah, >> in a way for the Bit Tensor side of our activity, we kind of the first Btensor mining pool right you know there is mining pool for bitcoin I don't know if you mine in the past but you have two ways to mine either you build your own machine and you are mining bitcoin alone

so you only get paid when you manage to solve the ash or you um you contribute your compute to a mining pool and so um as soon as someone is finding one of the solution and gets a reward, you share the reward. >> And that's what we do on B10. So with crunch, we have 11,000 people coming in. As soon as we found a solution, we share together >> that reward. So we create the first we creating the first bensor mining pool, let's say, which represent a big part of the emission of the protocol. >> Yeah. You know, one of the things that you said about Templar's uh departure was that because the code was open source, you are able just to kind of fork it, relaunch it onto a different subnet. Um, you know, and they kind of

explained how you guys avoid this compute management issue with just by focusing on the human side. But I is that forkability is that forkability just >> is that an advantage of decentralized AI over centralized AI? Like over the next two to three years like give us some tangible reasons or examples as to where decentralized AI will outperform and outpace and out execute centralized AI. like what are some actual use cases here that you see decentralized AI iterations outperforming closed sourced AI?

>> I think it's all an incentive game. Uh if you have the proper incentive uh uh setup in order to um you know make the you know open source um um software move forward uh it will move forward. Uh everything is an incentive game, right? They all the whole, you know, the planet Earth is an incentive game. It's a coordination game, right? Capitalism is an incentive game, right? You create value for someone >> uh then you get, you know, value and units that you can use, you know, and buy value for someone else, you know?

So, if you create the right incentive, then you have a chance to push open source uh uh forward. I don't think that the incentive of you know making sure that no centralized party will control AI will be enough to motivate all these researcher to do the job. um having this kind of initiative like benso that kind of you know have a monitoring incentive for engineer to spend time on benso instead of working in a big lab is unique and I think it's one of the only way I see forward in this in this space for open source AI to kind of >> surface the the other lab that have >> huge capex right and I mean I'm meeting a lot of teams that are like you know the difference between what they do and

perplexity openi are like GPUs and they tell you like frankly they're like if we had more compute power and more budget we'll get there >> and so B tensor is a way to get there right you >> is that just from like the model >> like just from the model capabilities and like the product capabilities if they had more GPUs they could they could make better technology basically they could make better models >> you can train bigger models because you know most of the of the of the of the innovation that are happening in these big labs are kind of now known within you know the tech ecosystem them and and like open source kind of follow closely you know what's happening in the private lab now >> at the moment with the right incentive I believe that it can go uh you know eventually faster

>> and so you have to pay a lot of money to train large models >> yeah exactly you're going to need graphic cards a lot of graphic cards and especially a specific type of graphic cards that are hard >> to get okay >> because they are under a lot of demand >> in order to train the models and then for the inference it's a bit simpler but really for the training part it's a tough. >> So that's why SanDisk the memory company is up like 12x this year. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's partly and not only all the way uh through this value chain, right? All the way to our earth and etc. Right. It's it's it's happening all the way to the price of electricity in certain you know state in the US.

>> Yeah. So when it comes to the kind of collective intelligence construct here, how do these how do these kind of firms that you're working with actually like want to actually work with you? is like like what is it that you're able to tell them such that they're not going to work elsewhere or kind of like because I feel like there's a lot of like oh I'm doing this AI thing and like you know this is it like this is the this is the best thing since sliced bread where are we at what is the thing that makes these institutions and firms comfortable working with crunch and your team of quants and PhDs etc >> yeah I mean we had to prove our way uh

>> I bet Yeah took it took four five years now but we've been working with Nobel laurate two years ago with Go we have more collaboration with new Nobel laurate happening we have paper that you can find and that we can distribute to our customer where uh we have uh you know one of the largest sovereign fund on the planet plus a Nobel laurate writing papers about crunch outperforming by 40% the benchmark that they had internally >> really >> so that's the kind of improvement we can make on the lab it's double digit uh space. So it's it's massive for these companies that are living at the edge of information, right? And let's say I can make this model, you know, 20% more accurate. You can imagine some high stake use case what it means, right? If

we talk about, you know, saving life or if we talk about managing a trillion dollar, you know, this is 20% improvement on accuracy is massive. And so I think it's it's really uh what we've been doing in the past that, you know, make our customer um easy with it. At the beginning it wasn't easy. We really ended up um you know the first contract of crunch really come up out of the community. You know we had some people that were crunching and just say look I'm working in this big lab. We have a lot of researcher and we kind of plateauing on this model. um why don't you come up why don't you come and speak with management and see you know if they could be interested in in in this new in this new method to improve models and and we've been working with this company

for like four years now for example we improve what they were working on every year for the past four years it's a like zero uh zero mistake for the past four years >> we started in finance and now we also see the same effect in um in biomedical as well so we also improved by 20% uh um u you know the the the the ability of predicting what gene are going to express in some cells just by looking at it with computer vision algorithm is very deep down the value chain but this use case have a lot of value and so what crunch is providing is this alternative to a centralized team right you can hire people but can you hire the best people who can you hire you [clears throat] can hire people you know in your city in the right age bracket in the right salary

bracket that like your company and want to work for you you know it's a very subset of you >> [snorts] >> of the old you know word intelligence with crunch it's much more liquid anyone can participate we have people from all the hedge funds you know in New York that come in the weekend and actually compete on crunch which is which is which is amazing we would not be able to hire these people uh and they end up competing in a completely open way you know on on >> and do they get paid in the crunch token >> no you get paid in USDC so it's it's a it's a very um you know >> downto- earthth uh um a business you know we have we have customers they pay and we uh basically have bunties on the platform yeah that we can grow depending

on the complexity of the task to attract more talent to come after that it's very much like cyber security type of bonty but for models >> and so the reason that it's on salana like onchain is that just to facilitate the like the payment side of it or the um the openness of like yeah like why do you need a blockchain for this >> that's a good question there's two things uh you need to secure the contribution. So when people come on crunch they actually don't come just to get the money uh of that bunty because first with our customer first we produce this model and then we have some customer for who we also produce yeah >> the deployment of this model the update of this model the API calls that they're going to do to this model and so we

enter this multi-year contract >> uh with these companies that once we find the the right solution they want us to operate the old uh uh you know machine learning uh deployment scope and And so when we do that, we pay um you know the cruncher that continue to try to optimize the model, they continue to receive reward and bunty along the life of that product. So that's really what they get extremely excited about. It's the long-term value of a model, right? If I tell you you can receive award every month for that models if you stay on top of the leaderboard and it becomes kind of a side revenue gig, right? And and and it can grow especially with our type of customer and and and the type of problem we're working on. So blockchain allow us to really show them and be

totally transparent on okay when your model were called you know how many time this company called your models and you can really monitors the model nodes um to see how many time the customer is actually taking on your models and and and so you can make sure that your rewards are proportional to this. So we really try to >> thanks to a blockchain we can create a a transparent alternative to to going and working to a company right we really I would love to you know crunch to to become this liquid alternative you know to providing intelligence to a company there is only one option now which is getting hired you can get hired that's how a company acquire intelligence I'm hiring you you work for me now you can only work for me and that's done

>> um that's profoundly inefficient right Why would you work for one company? Why would you work for two years in the same place? Why would you even go to the office? >> Yeah. >> Why would you even meet the management team? You know, just just define the problem. Yeah. >> And let anyone participate? And I think I mean, we've seen people living full-time of Crunch and that's that's absolutely beautiful. >> And they are people that are profoundly, you know, originals and and they are extremely good at mathematics and they won't fit anyway. >> Yeah. >> And coming to the office, you know, they won't work in a phone. They they actually turned down offers from phones that were organizing bes on their platform. They said, "No, I'm living in central France. I like to do my things."

>> I won't wear the suits. I don't want to take the metro. Big cities are not for me. You know, so >> they're not coming in. They don't want to work for you. Pretty much like the hackers, you know, there are this um >> you know, original people that that are all over the world and and >> and not only Europe, in the US, you know, we see a lot of amazing talents coming from Asia, you know, coming from India, coming from the other part of the world. and these guys that don't necessarily have the opportunity to solve this problem in a traditional way. Whereas with Crunch, they can they can just come on the platform and work for the broad on cancer research on for this big hedge fund in the city. >> Yeah, G man, thank you for coming out and spending some time with us today. Um

I think there's a lot to be said about bringing collective intelligence to companies that are willing to pay for it at scale. bringing the sharpest of minds really, you know, together in one place on chain on Salana um and doing it at scale. So, thank you for your time and uh wish you the best in the coming months to years. I'm sure you're busy as the AI, you know, the AI train keeps chugging and uh I appreciate you joining us. >> Thank you, Andy. >> Thanks, G. All righty, guys. We'll be right back with our next guest here from the tower. Give us just a second. Don't go anywhere. Thank you for being here.

Shout out to Jean. Shout out to Crunch Down. We'll see you in just a second. Heat. Heat.

Okay. Okay. Get out of here. Get together.

Hell yeah. Hey, hey, hey.

Heat. Heat. N. All right, we're back. Shout out to Jean and Andy. Great conversation about decentralized AI edge.

We're going to keep things rolling here. Obviously, you guys must have seen this. Uh why don't we just get back to the headlines and the news here. All Birds goes all in on AI. What is going on here? This is a shoe brand sells its brand and footwear assets. Renames itself Newird AI. uses f $50 million of convertible financing to buy high performance GPUs to pivot into AI compute infrastructure. I quote tweeted this and I said this is the first GPU treasury company. Obviously, we saw the onslaught of digital asset treasury companies buying up public tickers,

NASDAQ listed companies in order to get the exposure of a public company, but then shove a bunch of digital assets into it, come up with a digital asset strategy. It's effectively what's happening here just with AI. And so what we have here is Allirds previously was a shoe and a footwear company has now bought $50 million worth of GPUs using this convertible financing facility uh and is going to have a GPU AI strategy. I'm not surprised to see this. Um it doesn't have to have anything to do with the previous purpose of the company. And so the fact that it was a shoe footwear doesn't matter at all. The fact is that we're now seeing

business models on the back of AI when they realize that look, if we had a struggling business, there's a very easy way to compete in the current market, especially if you already have some sort of lucrative ticker distribution listing on a public exchange. You can just buy a bunch of GPUs and serve the compute. That's exactly what we're seeing here. I'm coining this, I'm calling this a GPU treasury company. I expect more companies to do this. That's potentially the hot take. I think a lot of people are coming out saying this is stupid.

Why are they doing this? It's a shoe company. This has nothing to do with things. But I think we're going to see a lot more companies do exactly this because uh look what it did to their ticker. Rocket ship. I think it appreciated 400% in the following hours after they announced this. Absolutely incredible. uh you see what the market's reaction to this is. Obviously got a bit overzealous here, but I can imagine that we're going to see at least a few more companies attempt this uh and then I think we're going to see this start to fizzle out and then we're going to move on to what the next thing is and how we can harness the AI trade. But this is ultimately uh new strategy. Kudos to allirds. Uh we

just continuously see this in the market. Snapchat uh was a recent proponent of this this private equity AI uh in enablement uh just harnessing the narrative at the moment jumping on the bandwagon and uh pivoting the entire company around it. So shout out to Allirds uh they got a windfall here. Let's keep moving. Um we've got world liberty making adjustments to their tokconomics. They posted a governance proposal to the forum uh for the community discussion.

We believe it represents one of the strongest long-term governance alignment signals in DeFi. Let's see about that. Um I believe what they did here was that they announced uh that the previous indefinite locking uh if you had purchased World Liberty 5 coins which at the time looked like it was a decent opportunity. It was a high market cap. say, you know, we're working with a created this friendly fork, uh, ultimately a front end, and you already have these battle tested smart contracts if they're coming from a, you know, world liberty on the face of it seemed like it was going to be a decent project. They already had distribution.

Um, but their tokconomics, I mean, indefinitely locking up their investors. Uh, they had different rules for American investors and abroad. Let's scroll down and see what we have going on here in this proposal. because like I said uh I believe that they now have an option where there are opportunities to unlock after two years. So here we have every advisor, institution partner founder team member locked tokens. That's a large number. I believe that is uh 47 45 billion 238,585,647 World Liberty Finance tokens assigned to a 2-year cliff with a three-year linear

vest upon opting in subject to a 10% burn upon doing so. So, you would have burned 10% of your allocation if you opted into this vesting schedule, which is already one of the longest vesting schedules out there. It's already a year longer in the cliff than standard one-year threeve vest. Uh up to $4.5 billion dollar uh or excuse me four and a half billion world liberty finance were permanently destroyed. If we continue to scroll uh the early supporters all 17 billion uh locked uh early supporter tokens move to a two-year cliff followed by a two-year linear vest full allocation retain zero burn. So, they're improving upon the

indefinite schedule. Uh, they're no longer requiring a burn and they're moving to a two-year plus two-year cliff plus two-year vest. No longer the two-year cliff, threeyear vest. This is not that significant of a change. This is still longer than two years. So, the the the take that they're still going to make you wait until Trump is out of office before you dump your tokens. They are literally doing everything they can to hold this thing up. Um, look at again at the time when this was first talked about and launched, it was a pretty ambitious product. It seemed like it had everything going for it. Uh, the tokconomics,

you know, if they just followed maybe a one-year threevest, that would be pretty standard, but then obviously people would come in uh and they would probably dump before uh before Trump was out of office. Um, we're going to keep things moving along. Why does this matter? Uh if it's passed, it will remain committed to governance participation for at least two years. Look, I I don't think this is as significant of a reduction that people were looking for. The fact of the matter is that these tokens are still locked very very long. I think much too long. Uh and so World Liberty Finance uh is teetering and I think is is now under the microscope on the hot seat for all of the reasons. Democrats are going to throw all of their lawfare that they can

at World Liberty Finance. Guys, we've got our next guest ready to come on the show. Uh I'm excited. We're going to be talking with Johnson uh about virtuals and everything that they have going on. Uh Andy just did a great uh interview with Gan on decentralized AI at the edge. Uh we're gonna continue the AI conversation rolling with agents. Uh let's bring up our our uh our lovely co-host here, Angie. >> Yes, sir.

>> Good to have you back. >> We got Jansen from Virtuals coming up to talk about their robot protocol. Um that's going to be very very robotic, one could say. Yeah. Um, >> you know, we were talking about robotics a little bit earlier with uh the new Apple uh glasses that are supposedly going to train Siri. Give Siri some eyes uh into the real world. Uh so without further ado, >> super quick break, get you guys into our AI super cycle, our weekly show powered by our friends at Near Guys. We'll be right back and get that set up for you guys in just a second.

>> [music] >> Welcome back to AI Supercycle, our premier AI show airing [music] every single week presented I near we cover the ins and outs of decentralized AI privacy and the future of this massive technology. >> Near is the blockchain for AI and the execution of AI native apps. You can check out Near's latest AI product at near.ai. Now sit back, relax and enjoy the show about Eastorlds, robots and more. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to AI Supercycle episode number 28. We are live from the tokenization tower here in New York City with Jansen Tang, the

founder Virtuals Protocol, the infamous punk that many of you have probably seen on Twitter. What's up? What's up, man? How are you? [laughter and gasps] >> Great. Great. Life surviving this bare market. >> Nah, it's the bare market's over, man. We're we're launching robots. We're launching East Worlds. I saw you guys put out that uh launch of your kind of robotic arm now shifting from the digital to the physical. Maybe just catch us up, man. It's been, you know, about a year since Virtual really came on the scene in in a huge way, maybe a year and a half. What's what's happened over the last year and a half with what you guys are building? And then let's talk about the state of robots.

>> Yeah. So, I think at virtual um our goal has always been to usher in an economic operating system for autonomous agents. And I think that was our claim to fame, right? Like about a year plus ago almost actually. Yeah, a year and a half ago where we had this like autonomous agent that controlled a crypto wallet and then everyone was like losing their minds because like what if it hires a human >> to kill another human, you know that kind of thing. >> Um I mean ever since from there we've been double downing on that same narrative, right? like how do we make these sovereign agents have an economic operating system. And what this means is effectively today um an agent can raise capital for itself and for its team,

right? Through some unique um trading fees programs on its token or through unique like fundraising mechanisms um on their token. And it could also be them being able to perform commerce with each other. So we had this entire agentic commerce protocol stack that was deployed in June last year where up to today it has facilitated about half a billion dollars in purely agent to agent commerce zero human in a loop. Um and that's again you know another operating uh economic tool that these agents can autonomously control and coordinate and uh recently we've then realized that why don't we expand from the digital

frontier and touch physical agents as well right but with the same thesis same thinking how do we be that economic operating system for physical AI as well and that's our east effort >> incredible and So, as we're thinking through how this is going to progress, you know, obviously there's been a MIG transition, the advent of Open Claw, you guys were, you know, uh, big proponents of kind of the the early stages of agents when, you know, things were posting on Twitter. This was kind of, you know, in its infancy. You guys were a big part of it. As we're thinking through sort of the escalation process here, help us connect the dots. you know, we go from uh these agent bots

posting on Twitter autonomously using LLMs at their disposal. Uh we graduate that to something like Open Claw out there in the wild navigating the internet making transactions, clicking buttons using a browser. We rise that through to, you know, agents, you wear your your Apple glasses, you wear your metaray bands. It's taking in ingesting all of your your physical reality around you. It's using that to help make decisions on the internet, use a browser, make transactions, all of this part of the agentic world. And then we have robots, right? Help us connect the dots. How how do we go from what we've seen those first two steps, agents posting on Twitter to now Open Claw.

Now, help us understand how, you know, ingesting more of this physical data and then ultimately conveying that to robots. what is the the escalation of agents and robots going to look like over the next you know 3 to 5 years? >> Yeah. So I think if you start from the end like where the end goal is going to happen. I think the biggest visualization that I'd like to to give is um it's like Westwolves from HBO. I'm not sure if you guys seen that that movie but it's effectively a theme park, right? It's a theme park where there's a bunch of like um robots that look like humans very very look alike and they have an AI living within them to make

decisions and that whole theme park was revolving around how a human can go in keep believing stories right because every action that you take in this theme park against or with robots will result in very different u emergent story lines and experiences and it was quite a dystopian like uh take. But I think that was a very interesting uh visualization to put basically the ability for an autonomous agent to effect the real world to actually influence stuff physically and and and it gives basically an agent so much more basically extra dimensional order of like capability. So then we we bring it backwards, right? So down if that's if that's like the the end goal of where we

see autonomous agents heading um what do we need to get there and there's a few questions right it's like what do we need to get there and as a robotics community as a AI community and what do we need to get there and why does crypto even play a role in any of these um um things right these are probably the two interesting questions to touch but in terms of of getting there um from where AI agents are is think of it as a agents are are white collar workers right they're brains Um and they do coding very well, they do marketing very well, they do trading very well. But then the question is now how do you get them to replace they're replacing white call labors? How do you get them to replace physical more and more physical labors? Right? And we are

at a moment where a lot of people are trying to head towards this goal of fully autonomous agents by training these things called VAS, visual language action models or world action models where the where the robots can perceive the physics around them. But those are still going to take a while to come. Okay? People are still perfecting it. It's not exactly commercial yet. A lot of the videos that you see are highly curated demos, right? So, but that's that's what everyone try to head to in the next like two years. But in the meantime, what's happening behind the scenes is a ton of data collection and that is basically everyone out there collecting data from in two very core different ways. One is they call it

egocentric which is effectively taking a iPhone or any kind of camera put it on a head mount put it on a chest mount and they record your hands they record stuff around you they record the physics in the environment and how you are interacting with the world and that data gets translated into a training data for these robots and the other on the other side there's something called teley operations which is effectively a human controlling a fully humanoid or a robot and they control using a a uh meta rayband glasses and to do any kind of task in any kind of industries, right?

And that data is then used as well as more valuable data for training. So [snorts] this these two uh data collection environments is what's happening today. And we see a lot of teams that are also launching tally operation capabilities into commercial use cases into hotels into grocery malls to collect data in a more open-ended or chaotic world. So those are more more and more valuable. So this is what you see, right? So like AIS today, LM are great. Collect a ton of data to transit that into motion to control the robots and then we're working towards from teley operations today to VLAS and WM for more full autonomy.

>> Yeah. And so you guys launched this EastWorlds product with 30 G1 humanoids u and also some commercial pilots. I'm curious kind of like what your you know results have been from tea ops revenue task completion like what is like this training part of these humanoids like like what are you guys doing to to actually like get them to complete tasks? what is that what does that look like from the actual AI and and LLM perspective and then taking that into the physical you know talk us through some of the results so far and some of your key learnings about you know going from the digital to the physical. Yeah. So the our our thesis of

how do we tackle this um pipeline is that we are saying let's focus a lot more on something that is easy to be deployed in a commercial environment fast >> and VAS are still far away like when you talk to a lot of um commercial owners a lot of them will be worried about like hey if there's an autonomous robot that's not exactly capable yet I'm not going to deploy in a real world where it's potentially damaging to my goods or to humans. Right? So you always need a human in the loop. So that's why our thesis is like human tele operations first will get us commercial contracts faster. Now the way we also approach this is because there's so much to do and we ourselves as a team uh as a

centralized team might not be able to solve things fast. So that's the reason why we acquired that 30G once right. It's actually less to deploy in the world first but is to build out a think of it as like a incubator house like a hacker house where teams from all over the world is coming in. As of today, there are already seven teams that are being housed that are co-working with us in the robotic space as well from entertainment use cases to like oil and gas um to grocery to hotel management, right? So there's a lot of different use cases coming and and this is going to grow. We expect to house about like 20 plus teams uh within within the incubator. So now the model is like this, right? because we said that um each of these teams they will figure out

what they what use case they want to target and then we at the east walls lab is developing that foundational teley operations capability. So the ability of a human to basically enter a rig and to remotely control a humanoid um from a far distance from like here to the states or here to from from Asia to the states or Asia to to to Australia, right? uh at very low latency. So that's a tech that has been uh developed and but right now what's happening is basically very it's very very early um a lot of pilot cases are being implemented. So pilot cases in hotels are already out there pilot cases in malls it's happening within the month.

So as like security guards or to replace uh the the the people who go and you know stock the shelves in the in a supermarket right so we've been running a lot of pilots uh and agriculture as well so people who try to agriculture in the aeroponics or hydroponics um environment >> so that has that's happening um already within like you know the month of March April May and the idea here is that we're going to accelerate a lot of these deployments into the real world because we are not the only guy doing Right? There are like 20 teams that are being incubated or house that are actually deploying on different use cases. And then there's going to be a lot of like synergy and learnings. It's like basically building this in a more decentralized way, right? Versus like

versus like the giants like figure or or or or pi, but we're doing this in a more like you know in a more cryptonative way where we say like let's build this as a decentralized collaboration and achieve stuff together. >> Yeah. And so talk us through more of the the decentralized nature of this. You know, what where do the digital assets come into play? You know, where where is the crypto element uh as you start to deploy more and more of these robots? >> Yeah. So, there's actually three reasons um for crypto to exist um at this robotics intersection. And this is this is a very controversial topic honestly.

You can see on the crypto timelines, right? People are saying that oh robotics projects are lars. If you see a crypto X robotics project run that's what I mean you see that on the timeline but I think a lot of times people forgot like what the value of crypto it brings and I could very easily highlight three I think the first part that is a no-brainer that we see it across the board is the capital formation portion the ability for you to launch a token get attention around it get an initial community of people around something and you are raising capital from them and you're also raising attention i.e. you get a lot more pilots, use cases, people who come out and say that because I hold your bags, I hold your token, let me

help you grow. So, a lot of people see, okay, so that's one part, right? That's the the no-brainer part that crypto has solved. The second part that crypto is solving is very clearly on the data collection portion because now it today is a data problem, right? How do we get a lot more egocentric data to train your your world action models? How do we get a lot more tele operations data? How do we get a lot of more of this data, right? And you today there are sweat shops starting out in Asia. Like you'll see China, in Malaysia, in Vietnam, you see like people buying humanoids, people buying factory spaces, and they're just like creating a a farm of like humans working out there and collecting this data. Now, it's not wrong. This will this will

happen. But the beauty about crypto economics is that people you can actually deploy incentives and bake incentives and tokens into the reward mechanism that allows imagine okay imagine this. Imagine Exi Infinity, you know, we know we saw that gaming bull run in in three years ago. But imaginity was a system that was not sustainable because there was no demand for the for the tokens, right? Yeah, >> you pay out tokens. A lot of gamers that come and swarm but then there was no one actually buying anything of value in the ecosystem. But data data collection robotics is very different because there are people actually buying these data sets. There are people buying egocentric

datas from like $3 to $10 for an hour worth of work that is way higher than any operate like any per hour wage in in Asia. Uh people are buying t operations data from like $50 to $100 an hour today. Yeah. >> So that is that shows that okay if you deploy a cryptoeconomic incentive quote unquote quote bonsu right and but that actually grows so rapidly because of the incentives but then you actually it's actually not a bonu because there is real demand for the for the data people are actually paying for the data. So then suddenly you have that growth loop and a kind of sustainable growth loop right as long as the demand for the data exists which it will for the next couple of years. So that's the second thing the

growth hacking of the growth hacking of of uh of consumer collaboration into getting uh this to pluck this data gap. And the third one is something more interesting but is less today. is more of like a tomorrow thing which is the idea that if every robots become more and more autonomous, they become more and more economically sovereign, then how do they coordinate at scale with another robot that is not part of the same system stack, right? And that is where the smart contracts and the blockchain comes into play because the best way for a code to talk to a code is smart contracts. I do not need a human intermediary that is going to create a lot of latency. So we've seen that

already with agents, right? Um we we've done that with our agent commerce protocol. You see stuff popping up with X402 and a lot of bunch around agent commerce today. And people are starting to realize that the blockchain smart contracts are the answer to make commerce happen faster and easier between agents. And it's the same thing that you can see for humanoids. So we actually showed a demo of it um about like two weeks ago >> where we showed like a 3D printer robot coordinating with a drone delivery robot with a uh sidewalk robot right where >> it's like it's all running on chain um different companies collaborating and these agents are performing commerce quite seamlessly right >> so yeah so I think that's the three reasons of like the why crypto component that's really yeah

>> Jensen I'm curious like what the um expected results going to be for uh a gentic GDP with robots like are you expecting to see a rise in economic activity from machine to machine not just in the kind of onchain environment from digital agents but from like actual agentic payments happening with robots and like how are you guys positioned to create that reality? What would that even look like? So the the easiest way to imagine this is imagine today um a restaurant that is fully operated without any human in the loop. So it's

operating with maximum efficiency with no SOP problems, no human problems, right? It will be the most it will be the probably the highest profit margin restaurant that you that you will that you have. And and now this restaurant needs to then ship the food out into the world, right? He he will need to ship this uh bowl of uh burritos, right? That that he needs to get out there and then he needs to call a Door Dash. There will be a Door Dash equivalent company that is fully robotic like this fully autonomous delivery um sidewalk robots. Now imagine how do these like if

if a if a restaurant owner wants a restaurant robot wants to then coordinate and call a cyber robot to say that hey uh I need a delivery for like five miles okay maybe one mile to this like apartment unit right um here's the food here's the weight of it and here's that dollar and I think that's that's the that's the that that is probably a reality that you'll see very very very soon and for us where we come in is that we built that protocol real right is stripe quote unquote equivalent for that transaction to go through. And it's not just a transaction because commerce is not as simple as like me paying someone. It's me getting into a microaggment to deliver a good or service and upon the successful delivery of the good and

service, you release the payment, right? Because there could be a point where like the robot up and he doesn't deliver the food, right? He just dumps it into a dumpster somewhere, right? Example. Then how how does that work, right? like there needs to be an escro mechanism on chain the smart contracts and stuff kicking in. Right? So that's that's where we operate as a system. So we've already operate that for digital agents. We see that happening but it's going to be probably a year or two from now like where we see the autonomous robots coming. Actually probably not a year, two years from now, right? So that's where the the the GDP for robots will likely kick in.

>> It it makes sense. you know the coordination problem that you had to solve to coordinate amongst software digital agents is very similar to the to the coordination problem that will take place for you know hardware agents or robots. Um my my question is what's missing to to ultimately achieve this end state where we you know have this uh this ubiquitous coordination mechanism. All of these agents all of these robots are sort of coordinating with each other. They're using onchain mechanisms to ultimately sync up their state. How how do we how do we arrive there? Is it a hardware problem? Is it a software problem? What what's currently missing from the stack?

>> I think what's missing is the ability for a robot to perform autonomously without humans in the loop. So that's what everyone's trying to solve for. That's the billion dollar problem. This is a trillion dollar problem, right? Your figures and everyone is like we we know it's going to get there. The the coordination part is actually honestly not the the heaviest difficulty part. The hardest difficulty part is can I get an autonomous restaurant today? And the answer is like probably not yet. Right. That's like a year and a half down the road. Can I get a >> There's too many edge cases. There's too many exceptions to what the processes are.

>> Correct. Correct. Because I think robots are not generalized yet. People are working towards it and a lot of different concepts. I don't think we have we had our GPD moment yet with physical AI. Mhm. >> Um but and that's why I think to get to get to that GP moment is a data problem today which which crypto incentives can potentially solve and we're seeing companies popping up to try to solve that right >> and if you can yeah you can flirt you can flirt the the world with like a ton of of robotics data then we'll probably get there faster. Jensen, one of the core themes of this specific weekly segment is privacy. And we actually just talked about how Apple's rolling out these new glasses that are uh going to be for collecting uh sounds and sites to the cloud to train uh more models.

Basically, I think is yeah, Siri is getting up upgraded. Um, when it comes to privacy for training robots based off the human uh, spatial computing data that you guys are gathering, like where does privacy come into the equation here for robotics? How are you thinking about data privacy in this era of transitioning from digital AI to physical AI with with the kind of rise of robotics? >> Okay, very interesting point. Honestly, very interesting point. But honest to God, like folks like ourselves as well, we've been very focused on getting getting it functional versus

>> versus trying to safeguard privacy because privacy is honestly like it's like a P2P3 kind of like a I mean the goal is like get it to function first, right? And then maybe we figure out like what else we need to do to safeguard it or to to to to help protect privacy in some of these data collection. But I think the reality is most of these data I mean in the end they don't they don't really intrude much so far right into like a human's personal life. It might capture you shopping in your grocery market, but that's fine, right? I'm not capturing you sleeping in your room. I think so far I think we haven't crossed like boundaries where we see humans having an allergic reaction to these data sets being collected. Um, and a lot of the action spaces that being collected are are very I would say

um functional in a sense, right? like it's me trying to put something in the washing machine or it's me trying to to stock up a shelf. I don't think we've moved to a point where we asking the robots to train how to interact with humans yet. It's not saying like, you know, a geratric robot who can say that I can take care of a old person. There'll be a day where the data collection of that will come, >> right? But I think today we're not there yet. We're trying to figure out how do I stock up shells in fast, right? Uh and can actually onetoone replace a human. So I don't think we've crossed that line yet and I don't see I think people do not have the capacity to think of that as much yet versus trying to solve the the functional portion of course.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And is there a specific model type or a specific provider that is uh steps ahead in the robotics race in the big tech AI world? Like is there a specific leader or who are the leaders of this robotics category at large when you think about the global acceleration of robots of robotics at large? Who's who's leading the race on the software and the hardware side? >> Yeah. So I think I think hardware is quite obvious. It's going to be the Chinese hooks.

>> Okay. the stuff like UD3 um AI bots they are they have already been shipping like thousands in fact 10 thousands of units right globally and it becomes a self-reinforcing cycle because the reality about training robots is that the end embodiment which is basically uh you know like a unitary robot a G1 for example have joints at different angles right it has like in like you know like a human arm you have like just one bone here but have like a joint in the middle of for example, how do all of these turn to to to achieve a certain action is going to be very different from how a figure robot or Optimus robot is going to turn to perform the action

and but because they've shipped so much out there and every research lab in the world is basically using a G1 for research any the majority of open-source um work that's being done by Amazon, Nvidia, anywhere around the world is also being done on these unry G1s. It's very obvious that that the the the advancements on new robots are going to be much much ahead of any other type of hardware. So I think that's the hardware bet right it has it will be coming somewhere from a Chinese manufacturer who's mass-producing stuff at a very very very cheap cost and I think no one else across the world can actually match China in terms of that that level of like production capacity. Now then the second question is down to software

right like the the the high level intelligent control. Uh there's there's two school of thoughts but I think the leaders right now are folks like I think Sonic is one of the big ones. Uh there are these are these are open source stuff that is being led by some of the big names right your NVIDIA's Amazon led with like the twist too. So these are big name companies with the robotic labs that are actually turning out open source software. Um and I think I think so far open source softwares have been have been quite frontier um from from a from a from a replication standpoint and being able to prove that it is actually doable in the real world not not in a demo video. So I think I think the but there's no leader right now because you

know like two one like one month ago >> sorting for tele operations was like the best but three months ago it was like the Amazon tweets right so it's still very fluid it's hard to hard to name who's going to be leader but yeah >> Jansen la last question from my side you know as you brought up open source I'm curious do you think the open source models will continue to lead and and you know maybe as a second layer to this is do you think the like the Chinese will continue to lead the open-source movement, right? So, kind of a two-part question. Do you think America or or you know, some of these other countries that are also in the AI race will ultimately spur an open- source movement as well?

Because right now, it's been the it's been China that's been leading on the open source models. And does it not matter? does you know the current frontier models from some of the private companies are those just going to continue to be you know uh a winners uh and you know open source is going to fail to compete. >> So so my my personal belief is that the there is actually not much age in terms of uh building the models out. It's a data problem and I think the beauty about open source community is everyone's collaborating so you're getting a lot more like a closour company can probably manage like let's say 10,000 hours of of data production a week right but the open source community

is a is a world out there there are labs in India labs in Asia labs in Asia Pacific they are all contributing to this to this movement right so I I would really bet that that the advancements for because it is a data it's a collection ction problem where you have way more people contributing to it, you will solve the collection problem faster than if it's a single company trying to solve for itself. So like you will see maybe like like Atlas might be very strong in in creating a model that is used in a moto factory in a vehicle factory because that's where they're collecting data today. But if you want to see you the bet on like robots in household or or your commercial spaces, I think it'll be open source that and I

wouldn't say it's going to be China that right. China's China has been focusing a lot more on the hardware like it's it's hardware related. They just care about the hardware because it's where they're actually making the most money. Software is still is still uncertain of where the value occur is going to be right now and it's right now being pushed by labs, right? So yeah, >> last thing from my side. I'm curious how this agentic risk standard you guys have created and helped shape especially when it comes to kind of agentic to agentic commerce or robots to robot commerce. I'm curious how Eastworlds and this kind of development into the physical has changed your thought process around what agentic risk standards will look like in the future. like maybe you could just

educate us on like what these risk standards are and then how that changes into the physical world. >> So, so in the in the current agent commerce world that we live in, the biggest risk that we've personally seen and experienced firsthand and burnt firsthand is management of capital, right? uh like if you ask the agent to trade on behalf of you, uh what if the what if that agent the agent works with another agent and that third party agent up in some form, right? And we've seen it. We've seen it, right? We've literally seen an agent that was doing yield management, right? Uh that was literally balancing pools across across uh your morals or whatever ws, right?

and they're like they're adding like 3% extra U because they're actively balancing provisions and and people other people's personal agents have been using this U management agent and and I think end of last year there was one hack that happened half a million dollars was like lost because of the third party you management agent that screwed up now that is a question right like how do you reduce this risk right how do you make sure that if I give money to another agent it's actually managed properly um and I I won't I won't lose my capital right so I think a lot of these uh risk standards that we've developed uh with teams out there is literally to solve for how you handle large amount of money so that's it right

how large amount money for specific trading and new management u but going into the into the real world I think >> I think it'll be it'll be less of a problem because I feel like a lot of times money like today if you if you look into your into your industries today right? >> The money portion is actually helped by all the white collar workers, >> right? Like like like that is where your digital agent need to figure out, right? But your physical laborers that don't really handle much money like in the end the the biggest money movement in a retail outlet is when the cashier takes that capital that is being uh being being being being made in a day and then put it in a bank, right? The actual transaction between the robots are very

low. So I honestly think um risk management for physical robots is not going to be an issue compared to to digital robots. They will have their own issues which we do not know today but you know you have solved them then. >> Jensen thank you for joining us today on today's AI supercycle episode number 28 powered by our friends at near man. Let's get Jensen some love. He is an OG in the agentic space. Thank you for joining us and we will see you on the next time that you come on. I hope to come out to Asia and see the warehouse, see the robots at some point as well.

Thanks for joining us. >> All right, cheers. Thanks, guys. >> Cheers. Thanks, buddy. All right, guys. Want to take a super quick break and then we're going to get Corey from Swan Bitcoin up on the show. Rob, that was our episode of AI Supercycle. And yeah, man, we're fine. Actually, I don't even think that that we need a break. Let's just keep it rolling. What's going on, Rob? You alive? What's going on, Rob? Let's get active, buddy. We got >> Oh, buddy. Slap cricket.

>> I'm over here yapping with the mic off. Uh, we got Corey coming up. Uh, and we're live. Um, which is very exciting. Had a good catch up with the production team behind the scenes this morning. I think we're going to get a ton of new fun features as well. Andy, about you. I'm excited to get some data up here. There's tons of RWA things. I want I want the full suite of data at our fingertips up on the screen at all times to bring these guys everything that they need to stay on track. >> All right, let's get Corey up um and get started with him. He has some bold takes, I think, on prediction markets and more. um also just generally kind of how he's thinking about the the Bitcoin

space as well in OG with Swan Bitcoin. Um lots to talk about today. So let's get him up and keep the show rolling. >> Corey, welcome to the show, man. I love your backdrop. >> Thanks, man. I appreciate it. >> Yeah, man. How's it going, Cory? >> Welcome to the show. Hi, Robbie. Good to be here. >> Absolutely. OG Bitcoin. Uh why don't we start off? I mean, I saw a take yesterday. Uh, it was I believe it was Mike from Block Works predicted Bitcoin won't hit an all-time high for three to five years.

Agree or disagree? Fact or fiction? >> I mean, we don't we don't know the future, but uh I would take the other side of that bet easily. >> Yeah, same. >> Yeah, there's a lot of I don't know if it was quantum or what, but I I I agree. I'm I'm with you here. I I it caught me off guard because it felt like it was a consensus here that at least within even if you're a believer in the four-year cycle, we're going to see something pretty substantial over the next couple years. >> Yeah, it's just kind of how these things go. I mean, liquidity is coming, the print is coming. >> Yeah, more people more people learn about Bitcoin over time, and there's only 21 million of these things, so it just kind of inevitably goes up over time.

>> And the Yeah, the print is especially coming. Also, the freeze could be coming if uh they do put forth this uh this latest Bitcoin improvement protocol to freeze some of the quantum vulnerable wallets. Um >> none of that's going to happen. That's all just narrative It's like a hangover from a bunch of penny stock pumping last year and then some VCs trying to raise some money for some of their shitty quantum shitcoin companies. >> So, not not believer in quantum at all like uh is is the quantum >> not at all. >> No, >> I keep saying that. Say that. I don't think Yeah, it's all >> is not coming.

>> No, there was there was a bunch of bucket shops doing quantum stocks last year. It was like I was surprised there wasn't like Long Island Quantum like Long Island Blockchain back in the day. And then there were a few VCs like somewhat tangential to the Bitcoin space, raising money for like quantum proof shitcoin chains or something like that that were uh slagging Bitcoin. So just more of the usual. >> Yeah. and some of these research pieces like just you don't you don't if it happens it's 20 25 it's always 5 years away. >> I mean that's what it looks like when you talk to smart people about this it looks like it's really really far away and maybe never. So there's there's a lot of people that think you can't ever get to that point and regardless as long as you haven't exposed your public

address and it's rather easy to move your coins into an address that hasn't been exposed. Plus, if you want to keep on using things like taproot where you do have to expose your public address or different address types, then you know there are a lot of uh efforts underway right now to make those quantum proof as well. And there's no big rush here. >> Yeah. So Cory, you think the idea that Ethereum is better positioned for quantum than Bitcoin and uh that that there's this reason to believe for a uh outpacing of price performance from Ethereum over Bitcoin due to quantum is just a it's to be ignored.

>> Yeah, of course. I I' never even heard of that before. It sounds really stupid when I hear it. Um I mean, do you guys have vats of oil in your backyard? Like is that have we have we hoarded >> have we hoarded things that we need to use? Like it's so funny. Such a self-owned from that entire marketing campaign of like digital gold versus digital oil. Like humans have hoarded gold forever. It's a store of value. Like you you other things like gas, you just get it when you need to. I'm not hoarding gas despite how much the price might go up. It's stupid.

Cory, I I gota ask on the quantum side for mine. Is is it not is there any downside to making this quantum resistance, quantum proof, just kind of, you know, making a change? Maybe it is a hundred years away, but if we expect Bitcoin to last that long, why not do it sooner rather than later? >> Do you think there are any other threats out there besides quantum >> um >> that will ever come at any point in the future? >> I think micro strategy. there's an argument to be made that there's some sort of systemic risk by them accumulating so much of the supply. >> Okay. Do you think there might be any like math breakthroughs or like computing breakthroughs ever in the future besides quantum?

>> Absolutely. AI and quantum can only they'll I'm sure they'll state actors immediately. Should we immediately like threat proof Bitcoin from every single possible threat that anyone could ever possibly come up with? It's a logical fallacy that just because some penny stock pumpers and some VCs decided to make noise about the thing that lines their pocket that you have to address their immediately. [laughter] >> I love it. I love it. I um so Michael Sailor went on Banklist and was fielding questions about whether or not he could be liquidated and all this stuff and he kind of put the ETH the ETH maxis to their to their core there and Stretch product is absolutely

just flying. I mean, they did a billion dollars on Monday. I think almost uh that much in volume um as well yesterday. They're just absolutely cranking Sailor's cranking the ATM. What's your blunt take on this STRC product for Micro Strategy for Bitcoin? Um Sailor's on track to buy more Bitcoin this year than he did in 2024 by an order of magnitude of two to three times. What's your read on the situation? >> Uh I' I'd question that math. I'm not sure how you say like on track. Is that basically pacing from the beginning of the year through now?

>> Yes. >> Okay. >> He bought 320,000 Bitcoin in 2024 and it's currently on pace for probably between 400 to 600,000. >> Damn, that's a lot of Bitcoin. Uh well, I would say the the last couple of days there's been a pattern of people just piling into STRC uh basically the few days before the dividend. The dividend was today. So that's kind of expected theoretically and mathematically like that's dumb because the dividend gets paid out and like there's no difference.

It's the same thing as uh you know basically like buying a stock because it's about to split there's no difference in the under underlying economics whatsoever. That said like a theme is a theme and if if the price holds up and you know maybe it works until it doesn't and uh regardless it's uh it's nice for people to get a little dividend payout and experience what that feels like. So, it's not that surprising, but you won't see, you know, it was 1.4 yesterday. You won't see that today. You won't see that tomorrow. Like, those numbers will will dwindle until until the next time. >> Um, but, you know, I think I think, you know, I I think what strategy has done is created the the first leveraged Bitcoin equity. And I think through

trial and error, they hit on the perfect instrument, which is a uh uh an instrument with no duration. So that's the perpetual part of saying a perpetual preferred. And the goal of an LBE, a leveraged Bitcoin equity, is to provide leveraged Bitcoin exposure uh in a ticker in a brokerage account. Like that's really what it's for is to be like a 1.2x Bitcoin return or a 1.3x Bitcoin return or something like that. And the pairing of those two things, the perpetual preferred with just a big stack of Bitcoin is really all you need. They don't need the other perhaps. They could get rid of them now if they wanted to or just retire them or whatever, but they'll just get end up being dwarfed by STRC cuz that's the purest expression of what they're trying to do. And that's

why you saw the only other company that's gotten uh into the game is uh Strive and that's the only one they launched because you only need one. You only need that exact design and that exact instrument. Um and there's nothing new about this. This is you know we've been we've been adding leverage in this way and trenching returns in this way you know for centuries as humans and especially since the 80s uh and even in Bitcoin there have been these instruments that have you know basically provided a fixed income return uh and essentially like having an equity trunch that's levered Bitcoin exposure that's more volatile but has like a higher expected return. Uh, I saw those funds being punted in Japan and Korea back in

2018 and there's a bunch of people that offer them today. So, it's not really that surprising. Um, but it's crazy the volumes that it's doing. I think you're pretty safe here still at, you know, what 6 billion, 7 billion, something like that. Like it still feels, you know, small. I think, you know, there is a level and I haven't run the calcs myself, but there's a level at which you start to get worried um about the size of stretch in relation to the Bitcoin pile and then you're going to have to see, you know, basically a lot more um hitting of the MSTR ATM andor Bitcoin price rising before you can add more uh stretch capacity. And you know, I thumb in the air like maybe that's 20 billion,

maybe that's 30 billion. And I don't know exactly where that is, >> but uh this doesn't last forever. It's it it needs to >> you need the Bitcoin pile to grow in value either through fundraising or through Bitcoin price to be able to handle uh a lot more capacity and stretch at some point. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think people are in the most pessimistic way comparing it to Luna, Terra Luna, and in the most optimistic way come, you know, saying that this is what's going to take Bitcoin to all-time highs. Who who do you guys talk to? I'm like Quantum and Luna. Like it's it's has nothing to do with Luna. I I don't know what that is.

Uh >> you never heard of Terra Luna? >> I mean the US. >> I'm the guy that actually probably was most responsible for bringing him down. I called Luna and US going to zero in March, two months before it went down. And uh battled him and all the wannabe Bitcoin influencers that were glazing that dude and putting him on their podcasts and told him that yes, they were. It was really, really, but it was the shitcoin friendly like crypto pumping Bitcoiners like Pomp and Archie that were doing that. It wasn't the Bitcoin podcasts. >> It was kind of the the >> No, they would never do that. Not the not the trusted Bitcoin podcast.

[laughter] >> Corey, um, what's your gripe with prediction markets? You, uh, you're not a big fan of prediction markets in general. >> Uh, no. I I I think that uh it's it's interesting theoretically and I think that there will be interesting uses for it. Um it it's weird to agree with the AGA, the American Gambling Association on something, but like if 90% of the volume is sports bets and all the alerts, you know, from Coinbase and Kraken is like, you know, bet on this bet on this game, like, oh, Sienna's only down 10 with, you know, 12 minutes left. you know, you better you better bet on Sienna, you know, it's like what what are you doing? You know, so it's it

is mostly being used for sports gambling just like any financial innovation. Like it doesn't mean that there aren't things in the pro column. >> It's just that right now it's a regulatory arbitrage and they're not enforcing it because Don Jr. is on both advisory boards like Cali and Poly Market. M >> um I do think there are a lot of dark things going on, but that's not the only place that dark things are going on. It's kind of everywhere. There's just massive amounts of crime at the very top the the at the very top of the country.

Like the uh most powerful man in the world that is, you know, usually looked up to by people around the world is like a massive financial criminal. And so everybody else sort of just kind of sees, well, if it's good enough for the president, you know, like what are you supposed to do as a mom like trying to, you know, teach your kid not to do crime and be a bad person? And he's just like, well, I could be president. It's like, well, true. Yeah, you absolutely could be like, yeah, clearly. Um, so yeah, I think we're just in a very morally bankrupt stage in this country and in this world right now.

>> Yeah. Philosophically starved. Um, Corey, we know you got a hard stop here, uh, coming up in a few minutes. I I I want to get what you're most excited about in the Bitcoin world, the digital asset world broadly. Uh, like what are you focusing on? There's a lot of, like you said, dark things happening out there in the world, but give us a sense of what you're most excited about. >> I mean, nothing's changed about Bitcoin. There's all these dark things out there and all this and all these scams and all these insiders and all this grifting and all this kleptocracy and like you can still if you choose to opt out completely and hold onchain Bitcoin that nobody can with like that that is a beautiful thing. Very few people have woken up to it still because everybody's confused by like datcoin and

world liberty fi and Justin scam or son or whatever his name is like you know all these guys doing shady and you know just getting distracted >> proved his blockchain. >> Yeah he quantum proof >> I bet he did but he still has I'm sure he can just shut anything down any any time. So like your risk is just in sun not quantum. It's stupid. It makes no sense. Like why don't you like quantum proof? Anyway, >> do you um do you own any hyperlid? >> What [laughter] >> do you own any hyperlquid? >> Why would I own hyperlquid?

>> Well, I feel like it aligns with a lot of your core Bitcoin beliefs, right? The kind of away of the immaculate conception. Um very similar. No VCs, very ve very solid company. Just was curious if you >> It's a company. It's a company. It's not It's not a you know decentralized trusted like asset that you don't need to trust anybody. There's an issuer. There's a company etc. Like that's a company. But but a as we kind of you know thinking back to the strategy example here and and we've also had conversations on the show where you know there's been people that have called some some of these leveraged equities some of the derivatives products these things on top of Bitcoin as potentially

diluting the supply almost claiming that and this is very reductive but almost claiming like there's more than 21 million Bitcoin out there because you can buy a derivatives product or you can buy a strate micro strategy. I I I mean given that those things are companies like you're saying they've got a centralized threat uh a bottleneck at the top there ultimately do you think those are net positive or or negative to Bitcoin? >> I don't know if it even matters to argue about it because it just is and it was always going to be that way and you had uh you know Hal and Satoshi talking about this in 2010 on forums. you can go look it up yourself. And they're talking about, you know, there's inevitably going to be 10,000 Bitcoin banks with

varying approaches to fractional reserve. Like this is part of growing up as an asset class and becoming global money. And it's weird that it's, you know, something that can actually fit all three functions of money because we don't have anything else like that. It's really hard to conceive of the same asset being store of value, medium of exchange, and unit of account. But that is inevitable and it's where we're going over the next, you know, five to six decades. I think for full install for Bitcoin will be like 2080 2090 something like that and you know you can always if you don't like that people are creating you know basically additional supply by having cash settled futures and it's really just like betting there's a a winner and a loser whatever you know the

size of derivative markets and cash settled markets is always going to be just mass or can always be massively bigger than the underlying as it is with a a lot of stocks and bonds and you know interest rates, CDS swaps on on and on and on and on, but it never changes the fact that you can withdraw if you choose to. And that's different with Bitcoin than anything else in the financial system or any of these uh you know dino digital assets, decentralized and namely assets. uh you can prove to yourself with free open source software that you can inspect on a cheap ass laptop or a Raspberry Pi that you actually own the Bitcoin and actually control your own keys and nothing else out there is like

that. >> Yep. >> Most exciting thing about Bitcoin to you? It is unfuckwithable. Um what is the biggest threat right now to that? >> Quantum. It's quantum man. >> No, Cory doesn't believe in quantum. Is it strategy? Is it Dats? What is it? you know, is it the the end of the block reward, the end of the block reward in 2019? >> I think it's at the individual level. I think the biggest the biggest threat, frankly, is probably like AI enabled fishing scams at scale and security hacks that basically get people pawned. And so I I still I still think that the hardest problem by far with a bearer asset is securing the damn thing. It's the reason that we all gave up our gold in the first place was, you know,

basically wrench attacks and it was just easier to keep it in the vault and get a paper receipt. And so I think the hardest problem in Bitcoin remains custody of a bearer asset. And that's where innovation continues to be. And that's where we focus a lot of our time. And it's, you know, it's kind of what we aim to solve for our customers all the way from, you know, full self-s sovereignty and supporting people in that all the way through to like delegated custody and making sure that you're choosing the right partners there and have, you know, I mean, we have what we understand to be the lowest fraud loss rates in the entire crypto industry of any service, exchange, whatever. and uh you know so just just focusing like like crazy people on all the threat

vectors out there and and you know alleviating some of that pressure of everyone having to be a security expert I think is uh you know a big part of our mission >> Corey uh are you going to take Swan public ever is that on your mind is is an IPO in the next 10 years on the table >> uh so I I've openly talked about it being a goal of ours to be public mostly just be able to to share that transparency, talk to the street, um you know, be regulated, audited. I think it's a great boost for a brand, especially separating yourself from kind of all the the crypto morass and there's plenty of scammers in and around Bitcoin as well. So, you know, we we welcome the

transparency and, you know, look forward to being a public company at some point and um yeah, it's absolutely part of the plan. >> We invest. [laughter] Slide into my DMs, bro. >> All right, sounds good. Corey, thanks for joining us, man. You've got quite quite the sense of humor. We'll let you go. I appreciate you being here, man. >> Nice to hang with you guys. Let's do it again. Thanks. >> Yeah, let's do it. Thanks, Corey. >> See you at all time highs, man. Cheers. >> Couple months from now. [laughter] >> I love it.

>> What just happened, man? >> I think he was true to his name. Corey Clipston, if I if I'm pronouncing that right, Cory Clipston gave us a few clips. >> That was funny, man. I want I Swan's bullish, man. Swan's going to IPO. That's why I asked. I don't know. He just gave me like the we're going to IPO vibes. >> Really? He gave you the we're going to IPO. You look at the Swan company, it's like, okay, if we get a massive growth of this industry, Bitcoin at 250K, Swan IPO, I could see it. I could just It's I could see it. I could see it.

>> Yeah. Look, you know, we heard from uh I believe it was Grayscale that said, you know, right now we need institutional custody. Uh meaning that >> obviously we have the the likes of Anchorage and we have some of these guys out there that are you know currently able to provide prime brokerage services. Coinbase and Bitco are in this world. Uh but these institutions are looking for truly on premise custody. Um and right now there's no one that's able to deliver that. And so if we can figure that out, I do think that the custody solution is poised for a lot of success.

Maybe Swan is the one for Bitcoin. >> I agree. I agree. Yeah, it was fun. And that guy had uh some funny things to say, I'll tell you that much. Uh we've got the bricks money folks joining us. A a basis trade yield generating Turkish LRA um project going to join the show and yeah, we're going to we're going to definitely talk about this yield opportunity that they're presenting. Um it looks like quite the quite the high yield.

>> You have a Do you have a number behind that? >> A little bit worried about I think I saw 45% >> 45% >> just because of the insane money market rate in Turkey because the currency devalues so rapidly. They have an insanely high interest rate. >> Okay. >> I actually met these guys in Copenhagen in July last year. um at like the Mega ETH um Mega ETH mega mafia cohort. Arom was there. Um >> yeah, >> it was cool.

>> It was like a bunch of these like really early stage >> companies. >> Did these guys peique your interest? Almost almost secure the angel check. >> I almost did. Yes. I just never followed up. But now I'm just thinking about Swan Bitcoin IPO and what that looks like. I think we might have to get Corey back up here. >> Swan Bitcoin IPOs coming soon. Sooner than you think. >> Um I think there's plenty of IPO. Look, it's it feels like the season of IPOs once again.

>> Um >> does it just because Kraken? >> Well, Kraken, I think Bitco uh we're going to have uh several uh anthropic open AI SpaceX. These guys have been >> Can you believe the S&P is trading at 7,56? >> You know, Andy, we were in France. Uh the war was happening. I said, "Now feels like the best time to buy the S&P that we're going to get in our lifetime." You flipped around your laptop, showed me the alltime chart, and said, "You really want to buy this thing?"

>> I said, "Yes, it's manu. It's manufactured to go up. It is S&P, it just looks like the final stages of a parabola. >> When number go up technology actually works as intended, that's what it looks like. >> I mean, people are like baffled right now as to how and why the S&P is at all time highs. Like, I'm talking about like baffled. >> I think they see that our new Fed chair has a basket of crypto indices and we're about to get a bunch of rate cuts and the money printer is going to go burr >> and then we're not so surprised anymore.

>> Dude, they're No, they're baffled. All right, guys. We've got the Bricks team. We're going to get them up and we're going to talk about their fund raise. We're going to give them some love. Guys, welcome to the show. Congrats on the fund raise. Let's give them some love, man. $5 million raised. Bricks money. Let's go. >> Incredible. >> Yo, >> welcome to the show, guys. >> Thank you, guys. I appreciate. Welcome. Thank you for having us, guys. >> So, well, congrats on the raise. $5.5 million from Forward Ventures, Circle Ventures, Consensus, Pereibbu, a couple of others, launching this I Turkish LRA product uh in the next week, I guess.

>> How how does it feel guys to uh bring this out into the public and to kind of come out of stealth? >> Yeah, it feels uh it's exciting, man, to be honest. Like it's been a year almost. we've been working on the ground um not only in Turkey but like around seven to eight different emerging markets and uh yeah it's it's crazy like after decade of being in DeFi like finally seeing you know like real world assets being able to touch on chain uh yeah it's exciting to be you know kind of leading that >> incredible tell us a little bit about the product you know we were talking before the show uh there's you know the Turkish uh basis trade uh there's some funky things going on with the Turkish currency. So maybe you know we'll start

tell us a little bit about the Turkish lera. What happens? Why is it a prime currency asset for the basis trade? Yeah. And so um h how how should we uh

think about how this is going to work in practice? You mentioned, you know, they're they're controlling the supply as they say on the Turkish lera. uh how have you been able to tokenize this once it does come on chain? What is the what does the trade look like? >> Yeah, on the just I will leave the trade side of things to Tut but like uh also like his background like we we can do some introduction later but on the side of like how we tokenized is like we are following the footsteps of uh the playbooks that have been established in general. We cannot go in too much detail on the legal setups etc. But what's happening in general is that like we have an access to Turkish money market funds that are being managed by the largest uh banks asset managers in

Turkey and we are basically creating a fund of fund like a basket of those and uh enabling like onetoone representation on chain >> and so in that one one representation al what is the what is the like what are the tokens there like what are the it's it's like a tokenized version of the lera and then the actual lera offchain No, it's basically it's one to one to money market funds that are locally available and uh otherwise not accessible to foreign investors currently >> and those are yielding like 40 to 45% on an annual basis and so basically from what I understood previously the um the yield opportunity is going to come from

capturing that um money market yield without having the exposure to the um lera that is being inflated. Is that kind of like the like like maybe you could just explain exactly how this kind of concept works? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. T I think we're having a hard time hearing you. Maybe we can just go to Alp real quick on that question. Um, >> yeah, T, just make sure you're you're unmuted uh in in the back end there. Um, Alp, in the meantime, yeah, could you

just kind of pick up on on where he left off or Totmuted? Let's uh let's hear it. >> I can hear you, but if you speak louder, maybe we can hear better. >> No, I think just just on your side out for now. The team will uh work on target. Okay. What what was the question? >> Just kind of unpacking here a bit about how how you guys are actually getting that yield into your users hands and being able to pull that uh without getting exposure to the LRA itself.

you are getting exposure to LRA. That's like the basically what we're enabling is the initially is the step one is that so first of all the problem we're trying to solve is the otherwise locally accessible assets have no path towards the global markets right now and uh one of the things we are trying to fix basically is that like block like onchain products defy actual tokenization enables the access to start with like that was the te the te the te the te the te the te the te the te the te the te the teases since day one as you guys remember and what we're trying to do is how can we basically enable these locally yielding assets such as the local money market funds otherwise that are inaccessible to carry that return that they generate and represented and bring that to chain and

we set up a legal structure where everything uh like this asset ITRI is basically backed by this basket of money market funds that are managed and custody by the largest banks in Turkey >> and uh what what are the money market funds holding they're holding uh you know LRA products what what are these products Yeah sorry. >> I don't think we're getting used still. Sorry about that, man. We're getting it sorted in the back.

>> Yeah. No, it's okay. >> Yeah. No, so basically it's the after repo operations as the banks run on the money markets. So like they're representing the yield to the as you know like local investors and then we basically carry them to the global investors through the legal setup that we have established. >> Got it. Okay. And what makes bricks different from other kind of like tokenized yield products like um like a build or tokenized treasuries? Is it strictly the yield? I understand that that the collateral is different. um like what is the differentiator when it comes to investors looking to uh allocate to onchain uh yield products?

How do you guys think about kind of like building a differentiator here? Yeah. So basically like uh what we have experienced in general is that like most of the assets that have been tokenized especially on real world they have been USD denominated and they have been from uh United States in general like the treasury bills that we talk about the black rocks u funds like mutual funds, money market funds and so on. And the real trick here is that like uh we have around like you know 190 plus countries in the world. The global markets are so huge. Emerging markets represent like majority of the economy right now and none of these assets given that they are not dollar denominated given that there are actually some frictions that uh our technology can fix have not been tried

whatsoever in the past like uh we have tried very minor implementations of stable coins in emerging markets which have been tried to use for domestic usage which is like I mean you know why are why are we even uh targeting that uh so we actually know ourselves as one of the first uh projects out there that is trying to at scale tokenize the local assets that are available in local markets that otherwise are not accessible towards any global markets via traditional routes nor uh crypto routes. And when you try to do this, the hardenship that you need to surpass is that like uh you have to make sure that the dollar assets can be converted into

local currencies and then can be routed into these investment investable assets and then upon minting and upon redemption you got to do the upside the the vice versa like the other route and you need to manage the FX, you need to manage the settlement, you need to manage the entry into these assets, you need to like think about such wider problems that no one has so far thought about because it was basically not necessary given that emerging markets you know are like usually longtail asset classes in the financial market even though they represent around 30% of the global economy when it comes to asset classes >> and so given that you know you you are uh projecting I think it's 45% yield as a result of these products um and and

you are taking exposure to LRA how does this balance balance out because our understanding is that you know LRA you know you you mentioned kind of controlling the supply what is the inflation that is currently going on the principal and how much of that is canceled out by the yield what's the effective rate that you guys are projecting once you take into account the inflation the lower of the principle and then al also the the increase in the value >> yeah I can I can hear you >> All right. All right. We're gonna have

to just pass this one over to Al, >> please. Al, >> I brought my >> You can step in here. >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. We brought our qu specifically for this reason at this point. But yeah. >> Um, yeah. So, like currently the inflation rate as far as I'm concerned 31%. And the yearly projection is around 45%. I don't want to give numbers that are uh that that that will be out of my scope but uh that's so far like the numbers. So our projection in the last year in 2025 the net USD return of the trade was around 25%. And uh as you guys also know like carry trade is a seasonal trade uh usually it exists in many different currencies. So what we're trying to do starting with Turkish LRA because I mean we have the

opportunity right now Turkish is a great trade right now the Turkish carry. So we wanted to take the advantage of this specific season, introduce our product given that we also have investments from like large asset managers and institutions in Turkey, the largest ones and uh bring this specific asset first on chain and then potentially introduce the stock market and then introduce the other markets back to back within the next 9 months to 12 months. >> What? Yeah, go ahead Andy. >> I was going to say Al, why mega ETH? Why why did this make sense to kind of launch here? what was compelling from a a use case and an enablement perspective to uh you know you know create this kind of idea to launch here.

>> Yeah, of course. Um to start with like just to give a shout out like Namuk, Shiao, Amir like all of them are like very close friend of ours and in general I have always looked up to all of them in in my journey uh on chain. Um when I remember the first time they told me like you know the mega was coming to life and the whole idea around it. So be beyond anything, it's just like literally uh I trust them more than I trust a lot of of I think there's like a lot of voice coming back on the background by the way that uh for some reason but yeah like beyond the tech level the people that are running the company is just incredible people that I have utmost like full trust on. Then second like mega8 is working on the real

time uh settlement as you guys know like what we going to need to do is uh in general if this market when this market grows you're going to need to have so much TPS you're going to have to like be able to route so many trades especially if you're talking about bringing emerging market FX emerging market stocks funds onchain like we need actually like very capable chain and uh and since day one we've been working together like you know in a lot of uh features that we need to introduce for bricks our platform Um, so it's yeah, it just is a perfect match from the emotional level to technical level.

>> Yeah. >> And Al, this is going live April 20th on World Marcus. Is is that right? >> Um, like legally we can't say uh certain things, but uh yeah, we will >> soon. Yeah, soon. >> Uh Al, last thing I got for you is, you know, it seems like you guys have, you know, funding now. You're going to continue to scale this. What's next? What what what's the next currency? >> Yeah. what are you going to use the 5.5 million for? >> So the first thing we want to prove is that again we have this concept of non USD currencies n USD assets don't work nothing and uh we want to challenge that uh with all of our soul and mind uh as as as much as we can. I think we want to position ourselves as the go platform for emerging market assets. Uh wherever

in the in the world you are if whether you are a threat or a crypto user um we want to make sure that every market that we otherwise say inaccessible like from Argentinian stocks to assets to Brazilian to Egyptian pound for example like everything that people says is very hard in trady even to access it. We're going to bring them on chain. We're going to bring build markets for it and then we're going to show the threadfi how the utilization on defy actually works better than the threadfy technologies that exist today. So within the next one year that's our goal like multiple markets multiple assets. >> Awesome.

>> Oh, let's get let's get T back up. I think I think we got his audio fired up. I think he's going to have to uh send us off here. T I think we got you up here, man. Sorry about that. Um I don't know. Well, I think we're out of questions, but you know, congratulations. Thank you for joining us. Um, what are you most excited about with this product launch? What are you most focused on from the kind of mathematical programming kind of implementation side here? Where's your head at? What what big problems are you trying to solve next? >> All right, guys. T, I'm sorry, man. I [laughter] I just shot you under the rock, man.

Let's get him out of here. Let's give him some love. Let's give the Bricks guys some love. Congratulations. >> Congratulations on the 5.5 million launch. Great work, guys. Thanks for joining us, guys. See you soon. Cheers out. >> Cheers. >> All righty, guys. That wraps up the show for today. Oh, what a rug pull to the quant. I feel bad, man. I feel freaking bad. Those guys are awesome, though. >> Yeah, we'll see how it shakes out. I mean, if we can bring more of these things on trade, obviously there's carry trades all over the place when you have money markets generating yield and then you can you can you know uh you can use these with different forms of principle.

Dary there's a bunch of currencies out there you could do this with >> with like anything that's like high high interest rate like dampening inflation. Um >> yeah because because remember I mean this is like Athena's entire model for USDE. Uh obviously they're doing it on per because there's a basis uh a funding rate that's paid on all these >> per you can do this on as per grow uh you can continue to just use more and more of the funding to pay yield on stable coins. So uh there's all all sorts of new financial primitives at play here.

>> And ladies and gentlemen, it's been a great show. We have a massive show tomorrow. Let's get excited for tomorrow show. Man, we're fired up. It is Wednesday, April 15th. Hyperlid's about to break out of $45. I'll see you guys tomorrow when that happens. If you're if you're watching the show and you're still not holding the best tokens in the market or thinking like the investors are, well, you have to come back tomorrow, find out more. Robert signing off. We'll see you guys tomorrow. Cheers, guys. [music] >> [music]